Judiciary Committee- House

And then we'll move to our special orders for those of you in the audience because we have a full house the first bill will be taking up will be Senate bill eighty one if you're not involved in Senate bill eighty one you may wish to. move on out of it and then you can come back in so that other people who are in involved in that will have a seat and let but you're more than welcome to stay. But members if you'll turn to House Bill fifteen twenty two I would ask my vice chair representative berry to take the take over. You madam chair. If you would identify yourself for the record in proceed with your bill. Thank you Mr chair Carol Dalby state representative district one hundred members house bill fifteen twenty two is a bill that we run every session this is that concerning the salaries of very disturbed very S. District Court personnel this is the bill that you hear me announce for a two or three weeks of sitting on my desk to make the changes if you made any changes and so that is the bill that you've seen this bill is sent out by the administrative office of courts since it out to counties and cities for them to review for any changes and as far as I know at this point in time all those changes have been made I'll be happy to answer any questions. Are there any questions of the committee. We. Having no questions from the audience are you ready to close for your bill Mr Ellie I am because my bill and make a motion to pass or a. The three questions on the motion. All those in favor of the motion say aye. Opposed say no. The ayes have it you have passed your bill thank you Mr chair thank you members of the committee. Wait for the check chair to get back up here. Thank you. All right members if you'll turn your attention to Senate bill eighty one Senate bill eighty one I recognize Senator Solomon and representative Gonzalez to come to the end of the table to present your bill. If you again if I yourself you're recognized to proceed. Representative just Gonzales District eighty nine. Senator Dan Sullivan district twenty. The members I appreciate you sharing this bill I know there's been a lot of discussion of it already I'm gonna try to go through quickly in allow you time to ask questions again I think there's just a lot of misinformation out there I want to read you real quickly an email to you at the email I got this morning. Says audible Sullivan and Gonzales recently I learned there was information being disseminated that school libraries in Arkansas do not have collection development policies in place now this is from the chief librarian at one the larger schools in this state and they copy their procedures folks there is nothing in the bill nothing in the bill the talks about their ability to procure materials this bill doesn't address that at all this librarian has not I'm assuming they've not even read the bill. I got this text this morning. Senator Solomon is there a list of books that would be removed from for content for excess ability to minors if this bill passes. I'm having an email discussion with my child's teacher. Which is one of the largest districts in the state. She told the student's lord of flies. Which they're currently reading is on the list to be banned. To my understanding this decision would be made locally and not a big master list help that's true there is no list with those of the rumors that are going on right now in order to kill a good bill. We'll take a look at the bill. And we'll all run through real quickly because I think most of you have read it but I want you to notice the word determined and knowingly. Once a court has determined and then someone disseminates that material knowing. That a court has said no that that's illegal material only then would any penalties be imposed again as we go through the bill notice the word knowingly and determined by a court it's like you it's like you get pulled over far you're grabbing forty and you get pulled over the place said do you know how fast you're going and you go yes going forty what did you know this is a thirty mile zone no I didn't okay this thirty here go ahead and you drive off at forty miles an hour again. At present I mean Senator Solomon I hate to stop you we've been notified that the video feed is not working. And we need to pause for a moment since this is a bill that has great interest throughout the state so they're working on that and I apologize committee but let's just take a. Forty five minute recess or so and maybe they'll get it up I apologize for the interruption. Rhumbline zero. Do you have anything. Well Mr solar year my kids on. One. Members to give you an update will he said that he can get the feed to our audio room but the the streaming server some provider they can't get it out he's gonna work about five more minutes if that doesn't happen we're just gonna go ahead because it is at least being archived it's just not being live stream so route we're going to wait about five more minutes we'll just came and gave us that update. Members were waiting let me go ahead and give you the list of what we're going to do Thursday. So I you know I'm always trying to make our time. So on Thursday we're going to hear house bill fourteen oh eight. House Bill fourteen oh nine. House Bill fourteen thirty four. House Bill fourteen forty three sep correct represent fight you to there was one of your she did not want heard on Thursday the room. Okay I think this house bill fourteen seventy. Is it what is that the one that's not being heard port. Which one I'm sorry. Forty three okay fourteen forty three we're not hearing on Thursday we're going to pass over it so take that one off your list go to fourteen seventy fourteen ninety six. Fourteen. Fifty nine fourteen twenty four. I think that's because you'll be getting an email from me. All right members will visit the instructed me that they cannot get the live stream up but they are archiving it in that they will make that note so hopefully that will be on our website those those folks who are trying to watch now they will be getting a notice that what has happened to the live stream once again soon after so that I apologize for the interruption of your bill but we will try to get this right so you're if you would want to start from the very beginning fire if you want to start mid sentence it's at all you're recognized takeoff but we talk about knowingly by the law and here's the state governments are guidance on what it is from more intent to lessen I'm sorry from less intent to more intent so one can violate the law and what was your intent so the least intent is negligently. The next least intent is recklessly. Third is knowingly and last is purposefully what we're talking about is one must have almost no intent to do this your it's happened by accident you didn't know for example if they hire a the young librarian Arnold librarian to start work today and you come in at the check out desk and somebody checks out the material and you distributed and if the claim is made that that material was illegal are harmful to minors. You didn't know that you can't be held accountable for something that you don't know that's a critical part of the bill. And I was going to flip through these pages because I'm interested in hearing your your questions I've heard from a lot of the people that are speaking today I heard from him before the Senate chamber I hope that you will ask them what is it in the bill they object to I know it the libraries are won't one of our most honored institutions in our nation they have been historically and I appreciate what our libraries to and I appreciate the opportunity they provide but we've kind of reached a point where parents need to have some and be empowered to address some of these issues so if you look at at the page two it says online twenty six a person commits furnishing a harmful I item to a minor if knowing the character of the item and the person knowingly so again you have to know the character of the book or other material you're distributing you have to know that material is violating the law and harmful to minors. On page. Three. Online harmful to minors means the same as defined in fifty eight five dash fifty eight dash fifty one. You want to cover that all. You want me to go ahead. Yes fifty five foot desperately eight five oh one is is what's already in existing law hopeful minor means a quality of any description exhibition presentation or representation of whatever form of nudity sexual conduct and its list list all these things taken as a whole as the following characteristics And it goes on to talk about the community standards committee meeting contemporary community standards and The if it depicts or describes any of these things that are Basically meant to be sexually arousing the children then it it's already outlawed in in this but then if you go on down the section C. of this it It excludes material or if the if the material or the performance still lacks. It if a like seriously literacy scientific medical or artistic or political value for minors so that meets any of those things is not excluded and in this current it's it's not described as being harmful to minors and was currently that's current law twenty sixteen that was passed so it happened does all those things have to pass the that test and then knowing test. if you look down on Page two line twenty seven. Current law approved person commits furnishing a harmful item to a minor if they knowing the characters are did sorry so on page Page three. This is a critical part in line sixteen. A visual reproduction that is determined to be obscene the folks you're quorum court has no legal authority to determine anything until that laws passed nor does your city council so that's determined by a court so a prosecutor not a group of parents about a group of teachers not a group of anybody. A prosecutor would have to take the material and to the court to have it determined obscene. And then if you look down and lines twenty eight and twenty nine known by the person to have been judicially found to be obscene. Line thirty three a person that knowingly has in this person possession of any obscene again determined by a court. In line thirty six judicially found to be obscene. Page four. It talks about upon conviction so that then again after there's been a determination. That in twenty eight line twenty eight on page four of form of other method by which a person may request a reconsideration here we talk about if you want to have a reek consideration whether the school or the public library there needs to be a and this bill contemplates an appeal process up through elected officials that's critically important again there in the appeal up through elected officials. It first on what page five it contemplates the principal or his designate shall be a member of a committee for they're going to create a committee that committee will meet and here's what changes and folks this language came from the Arkansas school board association. They this is their draft they suggest schools have a policy but they don't say what the policy is this makes the policy consistent throughout the state and everybody will have to follow that so you appeal to the library and then it goes to a school committee and then on to those the board elected board the critical difference in this bill is that currently a school has a committee and they get to meet behind closed doors deciding come out at all they gotta do is today this was a five two one six two one nine one whatever vote this just says you have to meet for other people they get to present their case and then the board have to vote publicly. It's subject if you look online thirty four on that page it's subject to the open meeting for your bill. that's just the practice for the school the practice for the your local library County library city library same process they appeal it to the to the library and then to the to the library board and then your quorum court which is the highest office in city government county government in fact they are charged with overseeing the library. It says down their line thirty one the decision of the board of directors under the supervision of this section is final. Again that if that's the same policy in both of them most of our libraries are already following that policy except their current policies and at the library board this just extends to I'm not going to go ahead and read all those comments acceptable to page nine the governing body I'm sorry yeah Page nine line by line nine it talks about the governing body of the county or city so that's where this is going to elected officials and then line twenty four the got the members of the governing body of the county or city shall review the information so there that that's the final step the goal of this bill is to stop it before you get to the quorum court I hope people will work together to resolve these issues at the local local level and then finally on page ten and this is one of the most important parts of the bill line thirteen a library may disclose confidential library records to a parent a check for a child younger than eighteen yeah I had a library and local library and email me and say you want to talk to me about this bill and I went to the showed up the next morning at eight o'clock and she said I didn't think you'd come and I said yeah I come I met with the library board Association of Arkansas library association met with the school board association met with and heard from hundreds of librarians and concerned parents to write this bill. When I meant to that school the library and first said I'm surprised you showed up well I'm here and we discussed the bill a little bit I didn't think she said should read it multiple times plus the what about the last part what about this section about sharing information with your with the parents she said I do that I said you know you're breaking the law she said I don't care I'm I have common sense and I'm going to do what's right to my principal wants to see the material I'm a short to them to us what you can't do that that's illegal uses I don't care and you can leave my library right now. That's the true story and that's what I hear from from many people that don't and that's why I hope you'll ask questions of people oppose this bill specifically what is it you oppose. Make one more comment. What's happening around our state now if there's and recommendation you know in Virginia and they change governors over in a very similar issue to this this is an important issue for parents to empower parents to participate in their child's education the American library association has a policy and I'm going to say of majority of our libraries public libraries have the American library posted or and or it's in their policy and they read to you from the American library association policy. Library policies and procedures that effectively deny minors equal and equitable access to all library resources and services available to other users is in violation of the American library association bill of rights so they've got their own bill of rights and if you read their literature their bill of rights is very similar they claim is equal to our constitutional rights so if you want to let minor see **** or obscene materials the American library association they got tons of material on this that's okay with them it's okay for them and testimony was offered in the Senate Committee were librarian said were not responsible for your kids when they come in there you as a parent are affected is children go to the library all the time without their parents they're part of a group at school or school library happens all the time. They further state a person's right to use the library should not be denied or abridged because of origin age. And it lists several other things but you can't be denied access to all the material in the library the librarians say they are not responsible for that and this most people you don't or in your communities most people just want the books moved from this section to that section that's what they want they don't want to ban books they don't want to work that out I can't count the number of times I've been called a **** and fascist because I'm headed down that slippery slope folks I just want the books out from five year olds you've got material on your desk. Look at that according to that we're not doing any handouts in here they do not have that. Okay. I don't guess I can read for many of them either. Okay that's very explicit material. Graphic explicit sexually. Very. A very graphic has I'll leave it there but the court in the American library association and their policy which are libraries have in their policy no material should be banned that children should have access that's exactly what this says. Further down here already children and young adults unquestionably process first amendment rights including the right to receive information to the library and print sound images data social media online applications game technology program another four months formats constitutionally protected speech cannot be suppressed solely to protect children and young adults from ideas or images that the legislative bodies believe is unsuitable libraries in the governing body should not resort to age restrictions in an effort to avoid actual or anticipated objections. Okay that's their policy. So if your local library wants to you in your local library you say I object to this material move it to a different section you go to the library and the librarian says we're leaving here you go to the library board library board says we're leaving here you can now go to your local government and they may say move it to a different section I doubt if they're going to ban it because that will probably likely be a violation but they can easily say look this movement. Think of presented as much as I need to if you have specific questions over lines in the bill or the intent of the bill be glad to answer them. See more do you have a question okay any questions from the committee. Representative Collins you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair sessenta I'm looking at this I guess it's in section five year the whole process about appealing up to the the quorum court. So I mean that is very much a in a legislative body and this is very much a judicial decision so how is this not a violation of the separation of powers to have a quorum court or the you know the governing body of the city that the city council to the board make a decision on review of something that really is a a judicial decision and do that a. Do they have other judicial roles that you're aware of in law I've met with their with the municipal lawyers and a County association lawyers they would disagree with you they have no objection to this I don't like it because they're adding additional responsibilities but they they say that there is no legal basis for the occasion making that they are the governing body and they are making a a judicial decision the quorum court can't say this is a legal you got to go to jail. This is not what they're doing they can say we like for you to move the book it's not a fact that the quorum court said we like for you to move the book in the library says we're not doing that they can do that there's no punitive. Action in this bill it the library refuses to follow the advice of the quorum court. You're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair and going back to sort of the procedure that we're looking at that the one quarter city board is going to be taking on and I wanted to build just a little bit on what representative Collins just said but doesn't at five sixty eight four of six required that a judge make a decision as to what's considered obscene or not it does and so if. If the quorum court is reviewing these materials. How are they allowed to sit in the shoes of the judge. On whether or not those materials are obscene yeah they're not making that ruling very clearly this to the municipal a chemical and the quorum court those attorneys would disagree they're not making a legal decision they're not declaring material I've seen only after a judge declares the material obscene or harmful to children and that determination be made the quorum court cannot make that legal determination. All. As for follow up right but so then on what basis is the quorum court removing the materials that they're not determining that the materials are seen what basis are they using the same when the county library board uses which is the core of the cat the county library board makes a determined based on their criteria. That were not changing their criteria they have the criteria they may not have the criteria but they have most libraries have criteria it's based our objections based on these criteria taking the bill because a whole where the material is a age appropriate they have those criteria and that library board will make a decision based on where it's placed. Maybe outside the library but that's what they make that determination on that's not a determination by the court so if the library board says we live in the children's section and you go to the quorum court a quorum court says will leave in the children's section if that's what happens. If they say we're gonna move it to a different section the library they have the same authority but effect they are the official governing body of the county to say that they can't exercise their rights as sick as the oversight final oversight of the county. I don't think that's of of an argument that holds water and I think the county associations and the municipal league attorneys agree one last fall you're recognized for a follow up thank you madam chair. Going into this process though and I'm I'm very interested in it because of the nature of what you've put together I don't see that the city council or quorum court standing in the shoes of a judicial action is even required to read the materials that are being challenged. That the bill specifically says that they are to look at the information transmitted by the library but there's nothing that requires them to actually read the materials underlying the challenge so given that fact. How is this city board making a decision as to whether or not the materials are appropriate or not if they don't even see. Well I think the vote I think that the remedy there's the voter's I mean if you're not that's what we go to an elected board if you're Alecta person and they bring material to you and you don't read it I thank the voter's Randall would handle that but no we're not prescribing that they have to read it they can read or not read it but the voters will make the determination whether they'll continue in that position or not. That's exactly why we wrote it like that because we all all of us in our positions are to be accountable to the voters that for example if I run a bill and I haven't read the bill but I'm voting for I don't think I'll be in office very long that's what happened that's why we're down here that we're we're tasked with fulfilling our job that's what our job is if we choose not to do it the voter for remedy that. Members any other questions. Thank college you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair okay so back up to section two you talked about that the change of claim to determine. where it says no employee director trustee a bona fide pager you on all I'm sorry page three page three okay so. So this this the and help me understand what this is doing because I I understand you've taken out school and and public library from you know the due process for you know but that's your intent obviously but what I wonder about is this change of of claim to determine I mean when I look at this section here this is a this section describing defenses okay so there wouldn't be a determination at this point this is the this is the point at which the claim has been made and defenses can be offered how would you have determined obscenity at this point in the process when you or or talking about defenses we of claims been canceled right yeah it's been lined out right so it says reproduction that is determined so that's of legal it nobody can make a determination but the core so when the court says this is a material that is obscene or harmful children the court determines that and once that is determined by the court and then someone knowingly they know the court did that and they're gonna do it anyway. That's what we talked about the levels of intent. Follow. You're recognized well but I'm talking about this section in your amending is five sixty eight three zero eight C. and that describes defenses in an obscenity case okay and so it doesn't really make sense to be talking about the determination having already been made when this is talking about something in the middle of the case there's a claim made the defendant can make it defense and this is a defense but you're talking you're changing it to determination which would be after the resolution of the case so I'm just saying I don't think that makes sense to me unless there's something I'm missing about you know you're changing it offense but you require the determination to be made by the judge of the court prior to the defense that we all rely on BLR to draft this language I've had multiple attorneys in BLR an outsider BLR and that Kate point has not been made so I would assume as we all do when we have BLR draft things that I rely on BLR getting it correct and I think this is correct bill are made the change here from claim to determine where you know how that works we all asked them to would people come to us we meet with about the library board and that was one of their concerns that have you basis on a claim so okay we'll make it a determination that was came across the American library association. The representative color you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair Senator Solomon I'm still just from this common sense standpoint trying to understand when we already have the slow down the process in place that is not politicized why do we need to codify this. What do we need to codified because right now there is no appeal past the board at the library right now schools are meeting confidentially behind closed doors in making a determination parents are concerned many are concerned that when you have the library board as the final in House determiner of what should go where they're concerned that it needs to have a and other independent group reviewing that elected officials this bill sets up that you'll you can appeal up to an elected board also the school at the school level schools don't have to have a copy of a consistent policy and as we look across the state we see this in many schools right now there's a packet that thick of books that are people are concerned about and when we have the American library association as the official policy of a county library and School Library and that official policy of those entities those institutions said everything should be available to everyone that's a problem parents say that is a problem and they want appeal process that is transparent where everybody is consistent so wherever I go I know what the policies are there so that's why I need to be codified. follow up manager you're recognized thank you madam chair and I'm also looking at the impact statement that we received and I mean I haven't heard anyone ever complain about these things and and my district of my constituents but it does say that it's unlikely that this new course of conduct will result in meaningful meaningful increasing conviction so. I guess I'm still just wondering why this is needed well I think there are again nationally governor lost his seat when this issue came up about empowering parents to know what their children are saying it's happened in the state again there's a packet up there that has hundreds of pages of that I'm not saying any of those. Page of individually what are illegal are obscene or harmful to children but clearly parents across our state are very interested. But the more you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair Senator. I love your fervor for protecting kids and I really appreciate that my love for this bill what it's trying to do could I may have missed it but could you point out the language where it says the court determines what's obscene and what's not obscene yeah well. Works as a measurement on page. page three it online fifteen members page four page three yeah so the court will quote will determine that I don't know How to ensure that the courts are the only body. Who can determine anything traditionally no one else can the quorum court can't say this is obscene I mean they can say that but it has no wait a parents group can thousand parents could descend upon a library and say this is obscene they have no legal authority to do that so the only entity that can declare anything obscene is a court. Harmful to children for that matter. Recognized for a follow up thank you madam chair One for a lot about this bill as a parental oversight giving them the right to know what they check out because I think that's a fundamental right that we ought to have and I'm very surprised that we do not but I guess my main question or. Do you think it's the courts right. The thing is the court's job or the parents job to determine what their kid should or should not read. I think there are many instances where the courts determine what's harmful to children they can't smoke I can't drink can't drive a car can own a gun so the temp to claim that the courts. should be the ultimate determiner of what's right for child I think we've done that in many many instances what this bill does is say those harmful to children instances may also occur and materials at the library or in the school in a bookstore if the if this material that up they have were handed out in a bookstore I would think people would quit going there they may be if it were found detrimental to children and that hit the news I think there be a lot of people but specifically if your point is that the court's job to protect children the Supreme Court has ruled multiple times that the court has an interest in protecting children. How parents due to and again sometimes your children going to a library without parents there happens all the time the live next there you go as a group the Boy Scouts girl scouts kids club bill go to the library and at some point. Parents need to be empowered to be a part of that decision and I hope that this bill stimulates dialogue between parents and libraries that we don't have all this going on it's one of the reasons the the they mention the impact there isn't much fiscal impact fiscal impact because people have a chance now to work together and I hope that's what comes of this bill and I hope we are the end up having dialogue and resolving some of these things peacefully. Represent Gazaway you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair Senator Solomon let me first say that. I support the bill so don't take any questions that I ask is being in opposition to the bill because I support the bill I just have a couple questions that I hope Might be considerations to help make the bill stronger. As opposed to weaker seven section two that concerns the fences. Related to obscenity. And it used to be the law. Currently that no employee. is liable no employee of a school museum or public library. Is liable to a prosecution. And the under the way this bill would rate would be for. violation for disseminating a riding film slide drawing or other visual reproduction that is determined to be of the same. Well we strike those defenses. For school and public library that we leave a defence stand for museum. And so my concern would be maybe you can address this that a museum would be able to disseminate the way I read it the museum employee director trustee would have an absolute defense to disseminating riding's film slides drawings or other visual reproductions that are determined to be obscene. And we certainly don't want that activity going on at a library serving at a museum so it was striking it for school were striking at the public library why are we leaving that defense available for employees of museums have because I haven't heard any complaints about that. I mean the people that I've talked to know what no one has said we're going to the Muzammil we know there's obscene material there I think libraries generally do a good job of managing the crowd and the traffic there but if someone wants to draft a bill have added medicine again talking with constituents nobody says the library's doing that most people are aware when they go into a to a you saying you're going to see nude figures people generally know that when you go into its elementary school library you don't expect to see that. But if the Democrats material suggest and I guess you can pick some packets up afterwards but if that material is being distributed in our libraries and there's also a very active as the policy says the American library association policy says we're not going withhold anything from anybody and I think libraries understand the good and. Representative you know that that obscenities determined by local local standards so what happens in your quorum court my quorum court your quorum court may be completely different and I think that's a huge issue an important issue that local communities will determine what's appropriate. Follow up you're recognized yeah I know and I agree I understand all of that that the issue is I think for most of the the things that you're referencing a museum I mean the nude statues or whatever the case may be in a museum those have not been determined to be the same because they have artistic value but this says that a museum the way I read it that a museum would be a not liable for prosecution if they disseminate disseminate what has been determined to be obscene. And so I my suggestion is just that if we're going to strike that defense for schools and public libraries that we also strike at the museum so that they don't become a place where click the clearly determined obscene material can be displayed or disseminated so that would just say consider that. And I'm I have I've heard that. Every time I present the bill wiped of anybody why you do you exclude them I think they're doing a good job of managing what they do we haven't seen that there have been excluded I think since nineteen seventy something they've been excluded they've done a good job of managing their material we haven't seen him do that and in this bill I didn't see a need to include them. The. Follows when one follower okay and then it again once again it's not a critique and I'm not I'm not trying to be critical I'm just trying to offer what I think is but be a helpful suggestion then the last question I have is on section four where we talk about media centers and school districts having written policies for addressing the challenges material. But it just applies to material that is physically present and then it talks about retention of physical materials. I have some concern about virtual libraries and and public libraries and other school libraries that are making these books available virtually you can check them out online over the internet You know is is there a. Have you thought about possibly tightening this up so that not only can they do they have to have a policy addressing was physically present them to a policy addressing what they make available online maybe that's addressed in here somewhere else and I just missed it but just just a thought and valid thought and I'm we consider that we've had a lot of uh talk about that I think there's some other bills and other legislation out there that address that specifically and again I'm trying to not take a huge bite what we're trying to do after talking to constituents in what's reasonable what's reasonable to library to to have the matter fact there are multiple court cases with the Supreme Court of the court about what's available at libraries and we just decided not to go there let's strictly stay with material in the library but it valid point. Represent Richardson you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair of. Senator so. I don't I don't know if You answered the question the representative Moorhead pose some I want to see if you can drill down and really answer that question because we speak all the time about how was parents choices and parents need to be involved. I'm a parent of an eleven year old who I am adamantly involved when he goes to the library. That's my responsibility unfortunately he didn't like to take the books back in at the pace fines but I'm I'm very involved with that so at what point is it not just the parents responsibility to watch with my child reads and becomes now of an elected officials responsibility so I think what represented more was asking whose responsibility is it not know if you really drill down on this do you respond. Yes so I would say that the this section that we've been talking about it and the defense to prosecution the librarians have a defense to prosecution if they are providing that material use a parent do not. Does that does that make sense so if you are providing that the material due to your child obscene material harm for or what is determined be harmful to children you don't have a defense to prosecution currently the way the the way the laws are in the the librarians do and this is striking them out of that defense prosecution and and again I agree with you and we can add in that year exempt from library fines if you want I understand that but in the again the courts up to the Supreme Court has ruled that the government does have an interest in protecting the rights of children in many many ways again as I mentioned you could hear you might I give cigarettes to your child you may not give alcohol to your child you probably don't let your kid drive much but on your private property may be but you have those decisions and and I agree yep parents have a huge responsibility here but they have boy scout groups cub scout groups school your school library you're just not aware of what they're checking out in currently if you want to know that they by law can't tell you. If you don't want to go asking fine if you want to let you in just not you but anybody if they want to let their child they tell the library and I don't want to know okay but if you go and ask your bill to see what your child is checking out. Per se hacen you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair eight do we have concrete examples in the State of Arkansas of libraries that are distributing obscene material. As defined by this Arkansas Code. I'm not aware of just a few but heart this actually changes that law to include harmful to children so would extend full but beyond what Justice obscene and that's included in Arkansas Code twenty six to thirty dash thirteen our but you're one the biggest parts of the issue we can talk about obscenity or not obscenity the biggest part of this bill is allowing parents who are concerned about their children saying what's harmful to their child and that may or may not be obscene the but that's the biggest issue I see across the nation is people that say and and again you can look at it they're very graphic materials yeah I've got one a book in a public school library that is one the biggest libraries in the state and it has multiple pages of incest very graphic where penetration and don't tell mommy we have it books in a library that say. Very graphically describe a relationship between a teacher and a teen student and their parents that think that shouldn't be in that section of the library but according to the library and medical library association that could be and I'm not accusing anybody of doing that but that could be in a children's library we just need some guidance that this is appropriate or not appropriate and if you disagree if you like that material fine let your child check it out there's nothing that prohibits that but if you don't want your child being exposed to that there are to be an appeal process and am I aware of appeals going on libraries by the hundreds likely by the thousands and that's all parents want is to be empowered to take this an appeal it up through an elected official. You're recognized for follow up thank you. Thank you Senator Solomon my concern though is is turning back to this idea of harmful to minors because all of the examples that have been provided either by you or by other other organizations have almost exclusively dealt with LGBTQ issues And so explain to me how. If I were judge looking at this law as is being challenged that this is not a law that is drafted explicitly as a method of engaging in viewpoint discrimination because someone doesn't like issues involving the gay community can you show me in the bill the page in the line that says that I don't know so. The reason that viewpoint discrimination is so sneaky and the reason that we have reams and reams of cases about it is that a an act by a government's it at. Official or a bill or a law doesn't explicitly say this bill is to engage in viewpoint discrimination it is sufficient that the intent behind the bill or the policy. Leads to viewpoint discrimination so for example if we go back to the Pico case that went to the Supreme Court or if we go to case be unified school district what the court found is that all of the books that were considered at educationally unsuitable. Tended to come from either gay Jewish or black officers. And the argument by the government and that in case was we're just trying to protect children from obscene and inappropriate material but looking deeper the court determines that that was merely a Dodge for the fact that the government entity was engaged in viewpoint discrimination so how do you avoid that given the examples that you have provided to the materials which are almost exclusively dealing with topics involving gay couples or or writers of color or get help gay writers. Yes can you show me in the bill would viewpoint that viewpoint that you're expressing is expressed in the bill. There is viewpoint discrimination then there should be something in the bill not the examples in those examples were provided by people not by me the big the ones that I gave or incest and teachers sexualizing students I didn't mention anything about LGBTQ you don't know about their five what I said they are what gender they are what sex they are this bill makes no reference to that and I think to accuse me of filing legislation that that is discriminatory I think it's not in the bill and it's never intended to be in the bill is only intended to give parents an opportunity to object and parents going to. Object to whatever they want to object to the pictures of that the all up there were sent by parents assume their parents is maybe grandparents or others but that's what they sent not may. Represent Collins you're recognized for a question. Thanks and this is on a different topic but it did. You talked about community standards as important in setting what is obscene right and I believe you know use that and I don't wanna put words in your mouth but you're recognized in the community standards standards is important part of our brought this bill trying to serve the community people in that but so that I wonder you know you've got this section here that says that anybody who is affected by the material can bring a claim to challenge the material so I mean I would imagine you would have people from outside of communities going elsewhere in the state potentially improbably challenging material how is that consistent with serving the local community standards it doesn't that seem like that's trying to impose other allowing people from other communities to come in impose their standards within a library setting. You're exactly right that's why it goes to a group of elected officials school boards city councils I couldn't agree with you more income and scream all you want and protest all you want but eventually it's going to be the representative of your community that vote I agree and they can again have at it you B. protest come down come up Catholic people are doing today but eventually it's going to fall on the elected officials of that community to impose what they were elected far to protect the standards in their community follow up you're recognized. Well and I would not I would slightly disagree with you about the elected legislative officials making that decision typically a court again because this is a judicial process the court would apply those community standards and and tunicates but. Putting that aside why do we even need to allow people from outside the community come and challenge what can you limit that to patrons of the library or allowed to challenge what why why allow all these people to come in and go from community community challenging the how does that Sir what we're trying to. So if I hear you correctly you want to prevent. People from coming to the capital are coming to their to the local city government to make their wishes known no which we talk about you said you want to why would I allow outside people to intervene when that's what everybody here is doing. And I think if people want to show up with a quorum court or a city council meeting welcome to come we can't start barring putting borders around our county in preventing people to come in and I think also your your comment that the city council. Has no authority to determine that there obscene they don't have that authority only the judges you said only a judge can make that determination a quorum court can say we'd like you to move from here to there at the library and says we're not doing that okay there's no penalty for doing that so I think what you're what I'm hearing you say maybe I'm hearing it wrong you're implying that the that the quorum court of the city council have judicial authority I've never made that case this bill doesn't make that case they have no judicial authority only a judge as you said only a judge can determine if that material is inappropriate for children harmful to children are are absent nobody else can do that one more follow up with you recognized so with respect to the first thing what I'm talking about is standing you know you make choices in this bill about who's going to be allowed to do what we make choices here this capital the people who are here welcome to be here they don't sit at the table okay so there are things that we make choices about all at every step of the way you could make a choice to limit this you know appeal to people who are patients in a library and I think that would go at closer to what you're trying to do with with reflecting community standards you may disagree but I am trying to understand why you wouldn't if your goal is to make a community decision I think that's the role of the court the court will determine if you have standing anyone I could see you anyone in here concerning anything for anybody at any time for anything. And the court often rules for you have standing. Yeah I don't like the color of your car well you can sue for that you're not going to prevail so to allow anyone the judges again the court will determine who have standing not may not the quorum court not the city council bill to determine that they do all the time as you know. People follow lawsuit the court session you don't have standing in this case is over. Members any other questions. Semicolon you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair Senator somewhat Sullivan I believe I'm a little confused because I believe just a little bit ago several questions back I thought you said that the low locally elected body not a court will determine obscenity based on local standards. So with that. With an obscenity may be defined differently depending on where you live well you know first of all believe what the bill says over what I may say. The language of the bill is clear. What I say if you Miss here I misspeak I always refer back to the bill clearly the bill says only the court can determine obscenity and harmful to children. That's what the bill says now by mis communicated our spoke in correctly and accurately I apologize but I'll stand by the language in the bill that says only a court will determine that. Members any other questions. I see no further questions we have a number of people who signed up to speak for against the bill Ferguson Gonzales use of the. Because say one thing going back representative Hudson's questions earlier of I think there's two questions that can be answered in the bill on page Page five A lot of certain line sixteen material being challenge shall not be withdrawn solely for the viewpoints expressed within the material and then I think you're questioned about the committee reviewing the material just under that it says the the material shall be reviewed in its entirety and shall not have selected portions taken out of context. The gentleman we have a number of folks and we don't have a lot of room so if your free DUI they're set off to the side or sit on the side of the committee. table it matters not to me whatever the first individual we have to sign up to speak against the bill is brick Tenney Brooks Brittany Brooks. Joseph I prudent not sure name on what you get to the end of the table if you will identify yourself for the record and then you're recognized to make your statement. my name is Brittany Brooks and I am a school library media specialist at Pulaski heights middle school which is just a few miles down the road I'm also a parent of a public school student taxpayer I spoke in front of the Senate committee as well we only had a minute so I didn't get to say everything I want to say I want to speak specifically to some of the things that I mentioned today first of all so Senator Solomon intent. Before the bill may be pure but the ramifications have already been seen in libraries around the state a certain group who is represented here today has already produced a list of books that they don't like the majority of them are books written by people of color and LGBT LGBTQ authors and that list has been disseminated to libraries around the state who have already started taking off their shelves for fear of being challenged. Principals have encouraged it because they don't want litigation and school boards have encouraged it because they don't want a litigation this is happening behind closed doors because this bill has already passed in other states we saw it coming. Now. We have another bill that's coming through it's taking way teacher for dismissal and we cannot be fired without just cause so we have a whole mountain of things coming to school librarians now I'm a parent and I decide what my children read I don't get to decide what your children read I work in an urban district the only urban district in Arkansas children in Little Rock have friends who have been murdered they have witnessed rate they have witness shootings Central High goes a lot down regularly what are community standards here are in Little Rock Creek me very different from what community standards aren't say where I grew up in Melbourne and that is for us to decide what does prevent one or two people in the community from coming in and saying we need to take all these books off the shelf okay I can tell you with absolute certainty that some children experience things at a very young age that we don't want them to experience my own child was a victim of sexual assault at the age of thirteen in a public school. Shouldn't she be able to access information about sexual assault. In her school library should a guidance counselor be able to go into that library with the student and get them the information they need and do we have to tell a parent about that would if that parent is the one sexually assaulting them. We are mandated reporters do I have to tell that parent your child's been checking out books on abuse and then that parent goes home and abuses that child more do not have exceptions in this. You because I think there might be a situation that you're being abused at home and you know what if we have to report that to DHS in that case so be it. But in the last committee meeting Senator Solomon said when no one's told me about that well with all due respect it is not our job to report child abuse to him it is our responsibility to report child abuse to DHS and the authorities we are absolutely the first line of defense public school teachers to children who are abused and they come to us for information they want to know about drug abuse they want to know how to get help if if they think they're pregnant or if they are seeking help in those ways guidance counselors come to us seeking that information yes in middle school and we need to have that and we don't need people coming in and saying this is too explicit we also didn't don't need to be told we have to give parents that information if they come in. Yes I want to know my kids are reading to know how I know I read with them I talked to them my son loves manga and anime I don't can't stand the stuff but I talked to him now at one point it was said that six month old could check out **** in the library I've never seen six month old walk into a library alone. And I've never heard of libraries checking out ****. I think we have sensationalize this I think we have vilified librarians I think it's disgusting. If a five year old walks up to a public library. Circulation desk with some steamy harlequin romance the first thing that my brain's going to do so will your parents not check out that book to that child let's use some common sense please. I don't know how it got like this that we have started vilifying. The most important part of our communities and our schools that we are actually believing some of the nonsense that is coming out of it but so far all I've heard is what people tell me this what people tell me that we would just ask for concrete evidence of something happening we got nothing not one single case show me where this happened. You can't because it doesn't go into your public library you will find a children's section for children. Shelves of books colorful seating displaced children playing you'll find a team section video games teen books and then it will be an adult section you will not go to the doctor Seuss section and find harlequin romance it's not like that. If this is all made up to make you want free. Garbage's being handed out to your children in the library. And his intent may be to give parents more choice but the truth of the matter is school librarians are terrified to put quality books on the shelf is there professionally trained to do. They're pulling them down literally shelves are empty and our school libraries already strained we don't have enough money we don't have enough certified librarians. And this is the ramifications this is what is happening this is the reality regardless of the intent you all know that intent is one thing perception is one thing and then there's what's really happening so I'm asking you to please vote against this if necessary send it back and let all of the people school librarians public libraries come back together and as far as the challenge policy you can look at school accreditation law according to Arkansas school accreditation law every single a school library must have a challenge policy in place to receive accreditation to the Department at at it's been that way for years if the third part of ed walks into your school library and you do not have a copy of your talents policy that the school board approved you will not receive accreditation so to say that was not in place before is a line thank you thank you miss press next step we have Scott gray speak for. The bill Mr gray you can't show any thing. We don't we don't allow. Props. You're recognized to speak what you identify yourself you're recognized to make your statement. My name is Scott great represent the filling County Republican committee six twenty twenty the children sections of our libraries have become increasingly for graphic sexually explicit material this material is often on display front and center undoubtedly with the intent to attract unsuspecting children. Last week I think my nine year old into the children's section of the Bryant library to look for an appropriate books he came back with books on changing your gender how to be woke help me in can have babies and why kids should pretend to be someone my art among others. These books were checked out to a nine year old and I have no doubt they would check them out to your for five year old to. It's sad that we need to S. B. eighty one but the librarians of today are no longer our friends and neighbors they are imported from blue states and liberal areas to solid red Arkansas in filling County they don't share our conservative values and in many cases they have an agenda the time has come for us to check that agenda and put a little bit of power back into the hands of parents and the community. Bustling county Republicans appreciate your willingness to address this topic and we stand United with you in the effort to hold these librarians accountable to the values of the community. Thank you Mr gray next we have speaking against the bill Adam Webb Mr Webb if you'll come to the in the table identify yourself you may make your statement. my name's Adam Webb I'm the president of advocates for all Arkansas libraries I am also a library director myself just for the record I'm from Ironton Arkansas born and raised I was born in doctors hospital I've never lived forty more than forty minutes from Little Rock so I'm not imported from anywhere There was a lot of questions about section two on this bill and I think that's important to address that one again because the way that I've read it and the way that others have read it is that this bill will legalise obscenity as long as you're in the museum so it's not that it's removing a protection for librarians are school employees the way that it's written now says no employee of a museum shall be held liable for material that has been determined to be insane so this bill will legalise obscenity in the State of Arkansas as long as you're in a museum. and a lot of people talk about exerts exempt or addressed in this bill as well it says that we have to review the material in its entirety which is the Miller test or one of the three phones the Miller test anyway I've I think it's important to to point out that a person is free to choose what they want to read in a free society and a person is free to choose what the kids read as well but a person doesn't have the right to determine what an entire city or county is able to read as that's just not a power that is given to our Kansans it's not given to Americans One of the things that I thought was was not really brought up here was the fiscal impact of this bill as you want to be pointed out there's only been one conviction under obscenity laws in Arkansas over the last three years if these books were legally obscene don't you think somebody would've sued Barnes and noble by now Senator Solomon said he didn't think that bookstores have this problem but where do you think we get our books we don't per annum we get him from booksellers and all of these books you could go down to Barnes and noble on shin all parkway right now and check out the ones that people have objections to if they were obscene somebody would challenge them in court and we wouldn't have been our libraries because this isn't that were being obstinate as librarians will rule followers when the point was made initially that librarians are withholding what kids have checked out on their accounts. That's not true that's the law that's the law we were not legally allowed to tell parents what was on their kids accounts. That was confirmed by an Attorney General opinion back in two thousand one. And we we put forward what we thought was actually compromise on that part of the bill saying maybe you should codified at libraries are required to provide a family card so all the family check outs on the same card that would actually help a lot of libraries in our state when you have kids who lose their books and you need to try to track down what four five kids I deal with a lot of home school parents at my library and as you probably know they didn't have more kids than a lot of other family so we have eight or nine people in the same family trying to track down everything they have checked out it would be helpful for libraries to have that option of having a family card so that was actually up a compromise that we provided to Senator Solomon the original draft of the bill had nothing about parents being able to see what was on their kids accounts just wanna put that out there section five only talks about removing materials it doesn't talk about moving out of the children's department and put in a different section of the library when you read that bill it says remove about eight times in the in the to challenge sections for public libraries and school libraries additionally section five only addresses city or county libraries and my question would be. Who who would be the determining body for Jones for their joint city county library that are funded both by the city of Jonesboro and Craighead County the additionally part of a regional library system so. Where do you take the challenge it's not addressed in this bill and by Senator Solomon own metrics people are putting in thousands of book challenges do you think any city government quorum court has the time to go through a thousand but challenges I'm a professional librarian I've not read a thousand books in my life and somebody came challenge to thousand books in my library that's all I would do for the rest of my career it be that and running up by re board meetings so I just don't think that some of the sections of this bill or well thought through I really urge a no vote on this and thank you for your time thank you Mr Webb next we have Courtney rolled in Weldon. Speaking for the bill this road if you're coming to defy yourself you're recognized to make your state. My name is Courtney rolled in I have two kids and have a public school district and for the last I'm speaking for **** one for the last couple of years we've asked our libraries why they're making certain materials available to kids wearing ordered and were told that they put a committee together and they all voted to keep them so there's no transparency we don't know what was said we don't even know who was on the committee's. We do have every right to ask why in the schools and libraries are allowing books that depict actual sex in them they are there are diagrams of how to have sex with people in these books I think we emailed some of you I don't know if you receive the mail librarians do not get to choose what is obscene to our kids for our kids. I personally think that any liability that's fighting to keep books about anal sex oral sex or any other sex acts. In great detail illustrations in our libraries should not be working around kids. Our kids no matter what they do they can't turn on the TV they can watch a movie they can't listen to music without the topic of sex being brought in should we really have to worry about their school library also bringing sex up to them no we should not. we have the Liberian speak up the Senate Judiciary Committee said any kid of any age can check out any book they want she also stated that if we don't like it we should just not with your library card so what is the tax paying a taxpayer funded library think it's that important for kids to have sexual material available to them. And no one has asked for books to be banned but it is not okay for anyone to give up so much material to children and if a lot billion chooses to do that knowing it is obscene they one hundred percent designed to be criminally charged there's not one circumstance where we should have to question the for kids school or public library is providing this. And that the argument is that let billions are providing obscene material but they're fighting very hard to stop this bill so they're not the one of a fighting for that would be a real question to ask is because if there is not a live reading in this state that is providing obscene material then why are they all here to fight against the bill to stop the material. The people in office opposition also say that we are fighting for some censorship but what we actually what they're actually doing is fighting to keep sexually explicit content available to minor children. I am asking that you vote for SB eighty one because parents of thirteen though our kids are being given free access to books that make even adults account uncomfortable to read out loud. Parents decide what is appropriate for consistently not a librarian that thinks it's okay for minors to have access to the same things that are gold medal does. Thank you Mr president next we have speaking against the bill. Dr Aaron Shaw. The shop he'll come to the end of the table and identify yourself you're recognized to make your statement. This is scary sorry I'm doctor inshallah I am speaking against **** one I truly do thank you guys for your time I've been in Arkansas educator for thirty years seven years as a high school science teacher. Seventeen years as a school librarian and I now serves as an assistant professor at a local university where I teach future school librarians. I do want you to notice. Those speaking against the bill there are very few school librarians here to speak up I had a hundred eighteen reach out to me. They can't be here they're working they're teaching children. And they're frankly afraid I don't have a school library anymore so I'm I'm not on the chopping block but to answer your question. But the last lady asked why are we putting so much against this bill I think because it really devalues us as professionals so one thing that that I really find problematic is the language this language service to imply that anyone who about opposes the bill is an advocate for sharing obscene materials with children this is simply untrue it's offensive and it's demoralizing to Arkansas librarians. We already have the obscenity law in place in addition school librarians and educators by law we have to follow the eighty each code of ethics for Arkansas educators standard to which says an educator maintains competence regarding his or her professional practice inclusive of professional and ethical behavior skills knowledge dispositions and responsibilities relating to his or her organizational position so in Arkansas public school librarian's we've not only been required to hold a teaching license but we also must earned a master's degree in library science. The public school library media and technology ACT AC eighty six dash twenty five one oh one through one of six defines the role and responsibilities of school librarians it also requires written and reviewed material selection and challenge policies that are approved by our local school boards no two school libraries identical because no two communities are identical school librarians know their patrons we know their parents we know their community. We work together as part of this community to provide a wide array of resources to meet the needs of students and families. Well we follow professional training. As an educator of future school librarians are students mac graduate students learn about curating appropriate library collections through a selection process so general criteria include should support in which the curriculum and or the student's personal interest in learning. It must meet high standards in literary artistic and aesthetic quality technical aspects and physical format it must be appropriate for the subject area and for the age emotional development ability level learning styles social emotional and intellectual development the students for whom those materials are selected. It should incorporate accurate and authentic factual content from authoritative sources. Each favorable in we can cooperate it turns favorable reviews and standard reviewing sources and or favorable recommendations based on preview an examination of materials by professional personnel. It exhibits a high degree of potential use repealing interest it should represent different viewpoints on controversial issues it should provide a global perspective and promote diversity by including materials by authors and illustrators of all cultures. Should include a variety of resources and physical and virtual formats should demonstrate physical format appearance and durability suitable to their intended use. So as you can see there are steps that are learned in selecting materials materials that meet the needs of all learners within the school population our school librarians are trusted with selecting appropriate materials and provided a budget to make those purchases because they are trained professionals there are policies in place at each public school district for parents to challenge school library materials that the they think might not be suited to the population. At a time when government redundancy and oversight is being challenged and reduced it's curious that SB eighty one creates unnecessary oversight by redundancy and protection some laws that already exist. I think it's been a waste of our time and I would encourage you to vote no on SB eighty one. Thank you doctor Shaw next we have speak for the bill Gloria Martin miss Martin you may come forward to identify yourself the record you may make your statement. Good morning my name is Gloria Martin a state bill and member of moms for liberty Washington County I have two sons in the public school here today asking for your support for SB eighty one concerning libraries and of the materials nationwide parents are rightly concerned about books containing sexual content found in a public school libraries you may have even seen the viral videos of parents reading these books and school board meeting. Last fall I came across a list titled at top ten challenge books of twenty twenty one on the a LA website on page one which you do not have I took that list and I Sturch table a districts school online catalogue and to my surprise all ten of them were available for check out at the high school remember the students are as young as fourteen years old somewhere even found in the junior highs as well as other district throughout our Washington County. Those opposing this lower standard of literature such as myself are called that banners as well as other names when in fact we're asking for school districts to provide age appropriate materials for students in the school library policies the board members delegate the responsibility for the evaluation of library materials to the media specialist in a school board meeting on January twenty sixth I addressed to them my concerns about several books on Page two which you do not have I was shocked to learn that this book this book is gay that the review committee decided to keep this book on the shelf when this book has instructions on how to navigate to accept a chapter on solid and sex parties hand jobs diagrams of where to stimulate males and females it even explains how women can pleasure each other with fingers orally and with strap ons. After that school board meeting I followed up twice with the superintendent school board members and other administrative staff with no resolve it's been silent and on pages three and four if I have been able to give that to you at the scene the lack of Just DeBeers here so is it okay for the school board administrators to ignore my emails and concern lawn boy which is another book that was brought to the attention of the school board by a parent but ironically when the parent email the excerpts from this book to board members and school administrators the parents email with flag into the voter instance or contact at content this one still sits on the shelf where is the accountability. Genderqueer on page six is another book with graphic images including a female with the strap on **** an excerpt about masturbation one argument is that a book should be read in its entirety and not a one line except as the basis for removal or relocation within the library well what if the acts certain leads a minor to a website like you dot com which is a pornographic website and if you could have your your packet you would have seen what can't dot com is. An article on the heritage foundation titled who decides which children read by J. green he says resources and space are finite so there has to be some process for deciding which books are appropriate. If we define band as not shelved or place and immediate reach of children in the vast majority of published books have been banned if we count only works included in official school curriculums in only a few hundred works out human history could be said to be approved these books are bolder take your pick on the several research articles that shows that porn makes a bigger footprint on your pathways and any other behavioral addiction for his aggressive it's perverse and effectively consumes daily thought life which stifles creativity and intellectual pursuit of true academics that's the proper vetting that C. Ballinderry support as the eighty one. Thank you next we have speak against the bill actually Cooksey I pronounce that right. Yeah okay this could see if you come to the end of the table state your name and you're recognized to speak. Thank you I am actually kicks in on here today as a private citizen born and raised in the state of Arkansas. An executive order from governor Sanders that was dated January nineteenth of this year states that the secretary of education shall conduct a review to identify out of date unnecessary or otherwise burdensome state laws regulations reporting requirements and processes that reply applied to public schools the review is directly considerations and input from educators advocates and families as an educator advocate of public education I believe that S. B. eighty one as unnecessary burdensome and redundant. There is already an Arkansas Code for School Library selection challenge and could reconsideration policies which doctor Shaw mentioned it's title six chapter twenty five also known as the public school library media and technology at that same active says that the General Assembly is committed to the development and improvement of strong library media programs in all schools and that the school media collection should provide resources that contribute to lifelong learning while accommodating a wide range of differences and instructional methods interest and capabilities section four S. B. eighty one does require a challenge materials committee to be formed and it requires that a media specialist be part of that committee at least twenty two school campuses across the state do not have a licensed media specialist on staff due to waivers. And to oppose the bill does not provide any guidance or challenge policy for classroom instructional materials it would stand to reason that with removal of schools from the obscenity law classroom libraries instructional materials and media use throughout the course of the school day and school related events would also be subject to the possibility of being found harmful to minors or obscene. The challenge materials process written into this bill leaves me wondering. What other actions good parents or legal guardians take if they disagree with the final committee or board of directors decision. If the committee or board of directors decides to remove a book that I would like my child to have access to what policies are in place them cannot take recourse against the school on behalf of my child in that instance could I argue for inclusion of materials I believe should be in a school library. Students often went to the school library and school librarian is a safe space as part of the school libraries duties again according to title six chapter twenty five we serve as information specialist to assist students in finding and locating information both for personal and academic purposes the criteria for suggesting books to individuals for recommending something worth to read and a student seeking our help are much different from selecting materials for a class or group as a whole as opposed to censoring the librarian selects tax for that particular student and guides students to self direct them selection implies that one is free to choose no one forces the child to check out a book from the library and twenty twenty one there were almost sixteen hundred individual books but titles challenged or removed from libraries across the United States the most targeted books are by what about black where LGBTQ persons those are some of our most vulnerable populations we need diverse books and our libraries. S. B. eighty one also negates the librarian as a professional in our field. What brands in Arkansas are required to hold a teaching license and a master's degree. Certified school librarians not only completed the master's degree program but I've also passed a content exam from practice we are educate we are professionals in our field. Public librarians and educators are also experts in their field within our selection process we use public reviews for academic journals and all professional training to select books to reach a wide range of student interest and needs. We consider input from classroom teachers students and staff and then we've that those recommendations for age appropriateness and quality. The books are selected for our school libraries are selected for our students a certified school librarian would never choose to add fifty shades of grey to elementary library collection it's just not going to happen probably not even a school library for that matter it's just not appropriate. Library's circulation systems do have the capability to add notes to individual stating that parental requests such as restricting a student from checking out the picture books could be John Jones whose main character is a to Wallace the picture but no David early chapter book series captain underpants to kill a mockingbird of mice and men Harry potter or the Bible all of which have recently made the American library association's top ten banned book list in the last ten years some more than once that book list is compiled annually just to rank the books that have been challenged or banned the most across the country it's not a list of books that shouldn't appear anywhere in the library. There is also a federal law that allows students and parents the right to access school records. Parent you absolutely have the right to limit what your child reads but that does not extend to other community members children's librarians and educators are all families and cultures in our community and for a school that centers around our students we strive to help all children be able to see themselves and their families and the books that we provide for our collection a collection has been professionally selected and curated specifically for them S. B. eighty one not only infringes on students right to read but also adds unnecessary redundant burdensome laws into our already overflowing education system I urge you to vote no for SB eighty one. Thank you miss Cooksey next we have very. **** of I've said that right okay if you can in the table in. State your name for the record you're recognized. Yeah I think you are there curtesy come from some Springs I am currently trying to work with my city on several books that I discovered which I'm gonna by pass the term obscene and go with the harmful to minors because that is exactly what they are I think that several people made a good point actually on the the against side of some points where this language could be tightened up is amendments to make things will be clear so I think that is a good thing but I think the Bill overall is solid and it does. What it's intended to do which is return control to local governing bodies and parents I understand people say well you can you cannot you should be able to choose what my child reads because you don't agree with that. We are to make those decisions in our communities I can't give my child you know o'clock nineteen and what then go walk come street because we've agreed is a community like that's probably not the best decision to let that minor do that. It's does the same thing you can do it on a community by community basis this is a good thing in addition it provides transparency it's clear frankly that we've been letting the fox was the hen house if the content that is being procured for the library is professionally selected and we should just trust them because they have whatever letters behind their name I would like to know why. These professionals have selected things that say like from six and up I used to kiss other guys and perform oral sex on them I used to love oral. Petty two staff members always went with us they're always good to us no abuse there was sex is that's the thing. Or maybe describing in detail you know just let people know water sports peeing on people the way considered sexy sister sisters the sexual position for two women. Reaming licking the bottom scat eating poop. What part of that is beneficial to a minor. I don't I don't care if they're fourteen fifteen six the there's nothing that is beneficial there we need to stop pretending that if one child reads this that that has zero effect on the overall community it spreads it spreads like gangrene the same reason there other standards it's the same reason we would not want. Books extolling the virtues of a white nationalist state you know that is is more zinger OR on you know the ratification of the white race or of the black race in this particular place because ideas have consequences those are important as a reason people so heavily oppose things like mine comp. These things have consequences. And so I would just urge you to vote I would urge you to take up the language I I actually don't think the the term the definition given for harmful to minors is broad enough I think there is far more harm coming particularly actually related somewhat to the next bill you're gonna hear on I think that the books that encourage minors to undergo hopeful in harmful your reputable damage through trend. Transformation care also should be on that chopping block. These things are important these things are important for communities for kids and for healthy Arkansas going forward as the representative that that mention before you know it it seems like you could be viewpoint discrimination. The parents here today I just want to go against the sexual is ation of our children your children as well as mine because. We care about kids I'm not saying that you guys don't care about kids too but. We clearly you have a different viewpoint on sexualizing Children and think that it's okay and if it seems like. I know it if you oppose. ASA opposing the centralization of children. This is nonsense those who who want to sexualize children or either perverts or peta files that's what it comes down to and if anyone community seems to be targeted perhaps it's beat not because everyone opposes that community but because that community. Or the ones the most trying to sexualize children thank you. Next we have speak against the bill alley tourney. This time if you go the into the table and state your name you'll be recognized make your statement. Hello my name is alley to me I'm a student at Crossett high school I myself am an avid reader who is also personally struggled with self identity and in the past I've turned to books with topics I could relate to I would say today I'm here to advocate for books and for people to be in my point I can go to the library and check any book that sparked my interest for that goes along with something I'm curious about. I can also go to Walmart books a million Barnes and noble and many other bookstores and have the same access to the same books even more genres of books if I weren't able to check these books out like I said before I can still go and buy them. Why should I be able to access these books just because I can afford to purchase them why should people who are not able to buy the same books be limited in the reading material just because someone's opinions and beliefs do not want to put their mind or anyone else. A real life example of this is that I can go to my local number and find Templars copies of Colleen Hoover's it ends with us I have read this specific book and several others and I can confidently say her books are very obscene I cannot find that in the school library what is this thing it isn't in the school library but is still assessable to me this is perfectly fine and so we see people online with the largest media platform appointing Colleen on her romance books I'm in no way saying that we should be limited are books that we read but the same people who are lauding Collins works and allowing their teens to read these books or the same will speak out on how books on transgender and gay people are obscene and obscuring children's minds. They're also proclaiming them all sexual content of books located in public and school libraries as harmful and damaging children's cognitive perception Colleen Hoover's books romanticized abuse sexual assault and other disturbing topics that are more obscene at any age appropriate book that can be found in a school library that just so happens to have a gaming character reminder this is my opinion on an author's books and I'm not saying do or do not read or support their work this will definitely affect me and many other teens because it will limit the range of content I can access at school and my public library calling is merely an example of a viral author I chose to present today do we not see the hypocrisy here House allowing your teens to read and by these kinds of books and read them anywheres that are highly censored book and much more age appropriate selection they could find a school not to mention cellphones cellphones and iPads have a common denominator the internet the internet is uncensored and you can find anything there so much more than what you could find in a public school or lovers selection what are we going to do Ben cellphones that simply cannot happen so I take away books there's a for their the safer option by far by taking away these much safer choices we're open ending up gateways to internet exploration for these topics and much more. Books that have people who are part of the LGBTQ I a plus are not obscene in our natural they're just as much natural as any heterosexual a story that has been read to children for ages with absolute resent us coming to a point why is it bad to represent everyone in the media but leave children susceptible to influence unsupervised on the internet or even speak of your own bias and harmful views around the bigotry rooted in this is unbearable to committee and we need to do something about it why should these people whom all have their own individual and unique beliefs and views be able to tell us people who have our own unique views what is obscene and what is not these actions are very similar to those of fascist leaders and police the word fascists is of high and as a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by dictator. Controls the lives of people and in which people are not allowed to disagree and with the government I believe this definition goes extremely well with the intentions behind this bill and because wells goes well with the police behind the actions that. With this with the action of this bill it basically tells us the things people and control Fund obscene and offensive we'll have to be assigned to us no matter our views or beliefs with this I ask you vote against bill SB eighty one I feel that no matter the outcome my voice being heard will make an impact and I deeply thank you for giving me the time to share my thoughts thank you Mr any next we have speak for the bill Missy Bosch Boesch. If you come to the in the table and state your name you're recognized to make your statement. Thank you my name is Missy Bosch I emailed all of you last night I don't know if you open the email but I sent you a list of the current academic standards rules and policies already set in place by the Arkansas state board of education and legislatures and the first Speaker talked about you know all these kids that are are they see rapes and they see murders but we're supposed to create a safe space in our schools so just because they're raped outside doesn't mean that we should have an explicit book saying that rape is okay there are rate books that are already in place for people to have been harmed but we're not talking about those so what I wanted to mention first is what I put in the email every school district in Arkansas has the selection of instructional in library media sentiment here else now this is from the state board of education the purpose of the school's library media centers is to supplement and enrich the curriculum and instruction offered by the district to promoted dialogue characteristic of a healthy democracy resuscitates the maintenance of a broad range of materials and information representing a very points of view on the current and historical issues in the selection of the materials and resources to be available in each library and media center consider and consideration will be given to age appropriateness that's the first thing it says right there material should be available to challenge the different interests learning styles and reading levels of the school students that will help them attain the district's educational goals get the berry last line answer me this which school in Arkansas has a goal to promote sexual activity given our teen pregnancy rate or to give guidance on how to **** or to suck a Dick or finger bang another call what about a man how to raise the child. I'm really not sure how we got here it's just common sense to me maybe it's your guys fault not for overseeing the laws maybe it's the Arkansas state board of education maybe it's our fault as parents but I do know that we're not allowed to go to the School Library without child every week when it's not every day and I had three kids at Cabot school. last year appearance that we list of books that is not assigned found when he searched the word gay on the school library now before I go on it's not about gay or straight. Librarians tag books based on. specific words I can go in and find every book on the L. G. B. King Q. T. and all these different things and date but when I went in and searched sexual activity nothing came up heterosexual sex nothing came up so it is a librarian writer tidiness so kids can specifically look up specific books and so there is a targeting right now because that's the only thing I can find that has set Senate is when I I use the word gay or transsexual or LGB cute cute cute T. whatever Right now we cannot may create more of a fantasy by kids and it should be a crime pedophile yet in some books are excused by the author and it's his memoir any excuses his rapist pedophile yeah gay cousin who raped him and there was a girl the first book that we brought to our school was describing a girl **** Monica purohit. And this is available to kids as young as ten because we have libraries that are set up on my new record can request them to a kindergartener can actually request a book in in high school through the new online system that all the school you schools use and then we also have these academic centers that are maybe for troubled kids which the majority of our nasty books were actually in that library which was very sad to say and that's from ten years old up to twelfth graders. And. I have some two years of research you guys if you want to know why you just ask me and what's really driving me crazy over the past two years of finding out there is no accountability and that's why I do I'm like that it goes past this challenge committee because once it gets there there's no after that. Parents just they pick the committee to read the books and all of them said that the books that I just talked about were appropriate and then I looked at the initials and the teachers who were parents at the school that got to be on the committee so they were just parents that were outside they chose teachers to having the parents of course they're not going to ban a book and we have for recorded audio when we found these books we just wanted to ask about policy and I think that's what we all want clear what is the policy on how you approve these books and we have the full audio of that of that discussion and it's it was almost like I was so taken aback that could even talk to that to the high school leave library media specialist first of all she said we don't only provide books for white heterosexual Christians I didn't even say anything about my religion or my secretary my collar with her comment to me so I know that this is an agenda because it does three things are the most polarizing things and the other thing that she said it was that we don't have to answer questions and throw me a packet to challenge books this is about you guys everyone praises Cabot we could not even get questions that we don't have to answer you we just don't have to answer and I'm able to ask questions to I just wanna know the policy challenge the book I don't want to challenge of I mean this was like fifteen minutes going back and forth and so. What we need is accountability we need to be able to say this and when they say there is no agenda she specifically told me that the companies that send boxes of books. And she gets to hand select the books that go on there but when we looked at the groups that send these books for free or for you know they get these new awards for that the kids they on their website I like. Definitely a lot of explaining children in sexual books okay that was like their top five books and every loss standard that I emailed you yesterday outlined for libraries that can only have books that are age appropriate and every other on the world if it's sexual like if I were to say step by step how to have sex or show you a video of how to have sex they're both appropriate and this isn't about what someone said like I'd ideology like we're trying to. I don't I don't even understand what this conversation about but banning huckleberry Finn or to kill a mockingbird this is sexually explicit information and we need to protect our children from one thing that has been scientifically proven to alter the neurological pathways and and we're scientific people right if a child is exposed to anything sexually graphic not the parents talking about sex but. One on them and talk to them or they visually see it or read it which in my opinion sometimes is even the most sexually graphic because your brain can make up all of the things that are happening and they will have a harder time re learning and re wiring their brains and. If Arkansas law already exists to prohibit sexually explicit curriculum which I hope you guys on the line as well curriculum may not be sexually explicit it also says it in the library they cannot access sexually explicit material why can they not look up the word **** but then walk over and grab the book that talks about masturbation to the whole entire thing. And in my opinion this isn't about certain certain groups straight or gay none of it we have got to protect all of our children from any type of group whether they have an agenda not from spect as sexually explicit material. And if you have any questions thank you because I do have two years with the research for you for me it thank you for your time thank you. We have. Members we have eighteen more individual signed up to speak. And I'm going to encourage the folks that are signed up to speak to keep your comments within a reasonable amount of time I'm not trying to cut anybody off but at the same time we have another bill that obviously Committee it looks like we'll be coming back after session but that's okay you all knew about that today so I will ask everyone to please be cognizant of the time we want everyone who is signed up to have an opportunity to speak because that's what we're here for that's what we allow in this committee but please be cognizant of the time and keep your comments to the point the point being the bill. With that we have signed up to speak against the bill Leslie Switzer Switzer if you'll come to the end of the table again by yourself you'll be recognized to speak against the bill. The morning of the realize it's getting late in the morning my name's Leslie Switzer I'm a mother and a media specialist for the Crossett school district. Thank you for granting the time to speak and I'll be very. Some legislators don't seem to understand why librarians are up in arms I'm not concerned about being arrested for doing my job but I can see where this could lead this bill targets public and school libraries. I thank targets because as was pointed out earlier this amendment removes protection for public and school libraries and librarians but leaves the exemption for museums. Okay all librarians we have different roles in the community Public Library serve everyone in the community regardless of age they need a diverse collection to represent all the patrons they serve from zero to a hundred. School Library and serve a distinct audience I spent ten years in an elementary library before moving to the high school this year we're trying to select materials for the students that we represent I don't purchase the same books for the high school that I purchased for elementary. The role of the school librarian is complicated we unique in the school setting because we serve all students not just the ones in our class. We're no longer just the keeper of the books we expanded our job descriptions to include digital media technology instruction research skills and internet safety we teach students how to navigate the library and choose a book we make suggestions when asked but we don't for students to check out any book. Students are exposed to literature that represents them. Chances are they won't become readers. We already have too many students in Arkansas reading below grade level. How can we have a literate society if students are limited to reading what others think is appropriate. All of our students deserve access to collections that affirm uplift and celebrate the various identities present not only in our schools but also in the global community we are all part of. Whether SB eighty one passes or not I appreciate this committee for coming prepared with questions and treating this matter with the respect it deserves thank you. Thank you we have next up to speak for the bill Tony road this road if you go forward state your name and you're recognized as make your statement. Good morning thank you my name is Tony road. the packages that you were to get have some very very graphic images and but I reduce those two two books because within the book covers our interior it explained the con concept of the book and the contacts which has been brought up both in the bill and by some people speak against the bill so I wanted people to understand that the images we're not just a single page to total eight or make people gasp they were complete context of throughout the book. To me when I read the twenty ten Arkansas code title five on and on numbers defining **** they met those standards of ****. But that was that was me that was my decision obviously when we're going before and trying to. To play the play the by the rules and challenging this Bucks it's not working. Parents are being brushed off thrown out of the meetings refused to be addressed their concerns are ignored so the process we have is not working that's why we have this bill that's why we're talking today. This bill establishes a process to determine if material that's being distributed is indeed pornographic. And if it is deemed to be pornographic then the people that are distributing pornographic materials to your children. Are held responsible just as if you were a bartender. And serving a twelve year old to drink or if you were in the convenience store selling cigarettes and beer to a minor it's it's. Defining what is wrong and telling people you may not distribute this material. Just like other people are held accountable. Because for all the good words and deeds that I hear it's not working these this material is still getting out into the question have you found these in Arkansas obviously you've heard that they are in Arkansas I'm glad for the people that are speaking against this bill but maybe it's not in the library yet but there's not a big giant chain link fence surrounding Arkansas keeping these ideas and things from coming in how often do we hear from our previous administration wasn't a problem Arkansas what is now. So we'll let's avoid those. I wish I wish you could have seen some of the information that's available there. So let me just say that with one of the statements from the library library law blog which is a opinion statement it says. Something we can all agree on. A critical point for all libraries child **** is not free speech. So is appointed personal observation. When we're talking about context and we're talking about these books in the libraries and your ten year olds being able to check them out which one of the but covers shows that this is appropriate for ten years and older. When I hear people talking about contacts I do want to make this observation. When you quote scripture. In defense of indoctrination sterilization and sexual session of children that's out of context. So I think I think Senator Dan Sullivan for this bill I hope that it passes and I respectfully ask for do that. Thank you we have mixed up to speak against the bill Jessica Disney not that quick. Health. State your name and the men make your statement. My name is just as may I'm here as a citizen of the state so I'm not some sort of important played some imply I've spent years working with marginalized youth and in the transgender woman myself. As previously mentioned some of the speakers who came up here before you guys today spoke to intent versus reality. The intent of this and to address something that Senator Solomon himself spoke to AS the intention of this bill was to empower parents and allow for parental choice yet in reality the Bill he so leads to point to his per as presented doesn't allow for the proof report until consent for their child to receive this material if a parent would allow them to do so only allows for parents to attempt to prevent not just their children all of the other children from having access to this here in our state. For the rest of the time speaking I'm going to speak to how this bill seeks to open the door for policing available material in preventing things considered obscene the name of protecting our youth and how it has already affected members of marginalized communities in my head in our history if we truly cared for protecting our youth light so many people of students who have sat before you have said we would actively be seeking legislation that assist with things like the mental welfare for youth who are affected by sexual assault in these cases and work towards actual solutions to the problems of things from white school shootings that we have all across America and in our state of Arkansas we live at a time what is somehow inappropriate for use to see themselves represented imports yeah our students go through drills concerning what to do if there's an active shooter in the halls. Making the someone referencing my community as being peta files and groomers these beliefs are continually pushed and national media and otherwise as hateful rhetoric that seeks to dehumanize us as people. You in some of this I wake up every day to new media where people are continually relating my own existence to being obscene. Myself and other trans gender individuals use or otherwise are not innately obscene in nature and this is not the first instance of a speaking look at in this manner. To speak reality of things that have happened. Policies like this have opened the doors for preventing material like this material from existing in history this has occurred already to my community and transgender individuals to speak in nineteen nineteen there's a man named Magnus Hirschfeld he opened the institute for sexual this in soft or otherwise known as the institute for Social Research. Using the language and current understanding of the time in nineteen thirty three just months after Hitler was elected policies were already being put in place that was to transition their homosexual homosexuals and Judaism as obscene. Acted upon these ruins of this obscene there were troops that stormed that same institute on may sixth of nineteen thirty three seizing all the books inside and burning them out in the street. This is back to decades in information research on our own transgender community this is what opening the doors to persecution of all Liberians within our state. Can and will lead to in our time as Americans I'm glad to say that we have the constitutional right to read and view what we wish. And I ask you to please stand with our community and help ensure that everyone continues to have access to the full breadth of our libraries by voting no on SB eighty one thank you. Thank you for your testimony next we have on the list looked McElroy. Identify yourself. FOR more call for the record. J. may maybe report from the council. Receive the time presidents Sullivan Senate and Solomon rips of guns all spring this Ford I'll keep coming three brief is very reasonable that SP eighty five Ecsenius BT one codifies the process that may already exist in public schools and libraries it makes a lot of sense to allow parent's guardian's or fellow employees of a public school they say in what is on the shelf for the school's library order may be placed the process by which S. B. eighty one creates to only allow only a few folks challenge material in the school library shelf for maybe places also reasonable is without question very reasonable to allow parents to see and guardians to see what the minor children have been checking up library. The review committees for both public and school libraries are a good use of time. After all this is a committee set up to review what is appropriate for children. Honestly I can't think of a whole lot of other things these members could be doing that would be more important or worthy of their time in their official will with the school district public school or public library. And the conclusion kids are prohibited from obscene material lots of places just to name a few gas stations movie theaters and for the most part even the curriculum their required curriculum that they study in school hall in class libraries some libraries are not protecting kids from C. material some libraries even refused to do so. Public libraries are supposed to be for everyone more more family council's hearing from folks across Arkansas we're deeply troubled by the obscene children's books that libraries are placed on the shelves of her local libraries **** one helps address these problems and I would encourage you to support SB eighty one. Thank you. Next we have speak against the bill Christina Smith. Smith if you go to the end of the table state your name you're recognized to make your statement. Hi my name is Christina Smith and I am a citizen of Jonesborough from Craighead County where senator Dan Sullivan is from I am a Catholic high school alumni and I'm the vice president of the young Democrats at a state and I'm here today to plead with all of you to please info indication of this piece of legislation that's before you today what we see in Arkansas right now it's just give some context here there's ninety five thousand LGBT people in this state and now I know all of you may have bought the argument that this bill won't focus on LGBT people however what we're going to see is that it will because what groups and what Dan Sullivan believes is obscene are these LGBT Bucks because you know as a previous Speaker brought up you can't take things out of context you can take Bible verses out of context just like you're taking the educational resources that groups are taking out of context the doctor fee that are in these books is just teaching sex education to kids which parents and legislators have unfortunately failed kids of Arkansas as a cabinet high school alumni that sex education that we received was signing a certificate saying that we would have sex till marriage we were never showed how to put on the condom we will only talk about STDs and STIS in the big bads of sex that won't prevent any like that will prevent teen pregnancy that's not going to prevent as TI's STDs these books are there to educate kids that aren't being educated we don't even have LGBT sex education in our schools which are what these books are there for. And I'm moving on to say that these books will be banned in our libraries were already seeing it happen according to Panamericana a total of one thousand six hundred forty eight individual book titles many of them that mention issues relating to race or sexuality with the subject of bands by school districts in thirty two states in the last school year more than five thousand schools nationally have had books barred from access by students in libraries and classrooms. and many of the books have been banned for simply featuring people who identify as LGBT Q. with a third of all banned books from April to June featuring people with such identities often under experience justification at the titles or obscene not to say that the courts are going to define what is and what isn't obscene it's a big over reach in our government it is not the job of the law to parent our kids it is not that it is not their job it's the parents job if the parents like Mr Aggrey I believe my send their kids to find inappropriate books in a library like porn. Well I may disagree with his parenting tactics for wanting his children to go find an appropriate books that's his right as a parent I can over reach that. Just because one parent doesn't want their kid to read something doesn't mean they can and all other parents especially when thirty six percent of those ninety five thousand LGBT people or our parents or LGBT parents raising future our Kansans who I'm afraid are not wanting to leave the state your state I'm a double major in history communication and I'm with the certificate in library science and museum studies and it's bills like these that are going to prevent future librarians for wanting to be librarians in this state you're going to see this state collapse when you try to bar people from just living their lives and so I beg all of you to please vote down this bill thank you thank you miss Smith next to speak against the bill is dean McDonald. If you're both into the table and state your name may begin. Hi there. My name is the mac Donald Arkansas state Jones bill and I'm a jazz student. And I don't think you can see it on my shirt and I don't want to be accused of using a prop but I do have to ask are we going to ban this next. Representative Hudson you at the nail on the head this was never about empowering parents this is an as always been about enabling and endorsing parents who want to exclude LGBTQ plus people and falsely equivocate their existence to that of being sexual. I am a straight white cis gendered Christian mail a check all of your boxes. And I see right to your scheme. My friends in the LGBTQ plus communities merit systems is not sexual no matter how hard you try to redefine words in the dictionary. I do have to ask I've heard a lot of rhetoric today are you going to empower the parents who want their clear kids to be loved and accepted are you going to empower the parents who want their children to not be ostracized and bullied by their society are you going to empower the parents the dread the day they might get that horrible phone call because our child chose today to no longer be on this earth because of legislators like some of you who wish to promote their existence. You're not you're going to enable now right endorsed the parents want clear focus far away from this table has as possible. You folks are the ones with the agenda it's called exclusion. Teachers librarians in public educators and not disseminating **** they're not disseminating sexually explicit material if you continue to insist that in the face of actual fact that says otherwise you are violating the ninth commandment you were bearing false witness against your neighbor but for all of the talk about how our courts have decided what is sexually explicit you are correct. The Supreme Court decided in Miller versus California and what is often called the Miller test that obscenity is defined by a three prong test quote whether the average person applying contemporary community standards would find the work appeals on the whole to prurient interests describes sexual conduct in a patently offensive way and looks any slacks any serious literary artistic political or scientific value and quote. The courts the federal independent judiciary decides what is obscene the bill before us today is a scheme to circumvent that it is a scheme made and signed with your local judges justices of the peace quorum courts and city councils because you know if you took your case to the courts the judge would laugh you out of the room. We're at a crucial juncture in this nation's history the people elected sitting at this table claim to stand for freedom and liberty there are some even in this audience who have coined the entire organization around the ward liberty yet the overwhelming majority of those in favor of this bill are in full throated support of being Arkansas's thought police. None of you here are elected to be the arbiter of intellectual freedom your efforts are counter intuitive to your just making these kids want to read these books even more Mr macdonell but let's try to keep it germane to the bill all right yes. People in so let's let's narrow it down to the bill thank you you're correct I apologize. Teachers and librarians are leaving Arkansans road S. because of the hostility that they're being met with two Bills like this. The list of books and excerpts are being sensationalized it's just not true we are not saying **** we are not saying sexually explicit materials in our schools in our libraries this bill wants to enable and endorse people that say otherwise it's just not true in my community I trust the people who have actually read the books please leave our brains alone and I are just party to vote against a speedy one thank you thank you Mr right now we have Nicks speak against the bill area parks or Erin parks. If you come to the end of the total this part you're recognized to make your statement. Judiciary Committee thank you for this opportunity my name is Erin parks I am a high school library media specialist serving grades eight through twelve as evidenced by its title subtitle and line twenty four on page three the purpose of this bill is to punish librarians and educators for circulating allegedly obscene materials which is unnecessary because this material has made it from the author to the agent to the publisher to the vendor. And the person he should face prosecution is the librarian. The only person in this scenario who makes no profit from this autumn. When I think librarians should be culpable because they put the materials on a shelf where minors can access access them but the law applies to every our cans in not just minors. Thanks cannot get to the library self without going through the steps first if the material is truly obscene the initial offense was not committed by the librarian. Another issue with this bill is not only that it leaves educators vulnerable to prosecution but at least as vulnerable to persecution. Even though the law has defined obscenity some citizens whose hearts may be in the right place we'll try to redefine it and pull educators out of classrooms to debate this topic using the challenge policy mandated in section four and mandate that is I needed we are already required under Arkansas law to have selection and challenge policies. Since my library only search teams there may be some books that are not appropriate for this age group and if I have made any mistakes in the selection process my current challenge policy which requires administration teachers and the school board who are elected officials to review the entire contents of the book before it is removed two or more sufficient place many believe that this legislation will protect children. But banning becomes prevalent as a result of as a result of its passage as it has in other states it will actually endanger them by taking away their freedom to read and their right to free and equal education. Arkansas should not pass this legislation just because it has been introduced in other states the fact that someone else is doing it does not make it right but banning is almost never and appropriate response to an uncomfortable topic. I do have several books in my library that address abuse address teen parenthood assault trafficking and other topics that unfortunately reflect the lives of the teams that I serve. Students who have been through these things can we be so that they have someone to relate to even if that person is fictional. The students have not been in these situations can read these books to develop empathy for the victims or to learn to prevent these atrocities from happening to them or others. This is why it is important that books appeal to the prurient interest before they are considered inappropriate for teens having sexual content in them does not make them evil many benevolent books most notably the Bible have at least some references to sex and nudity but this does not make them obscene. If you would like to read a book where educated people are imprisoned for doing their jobs read between shades of grey every dissipate S. this is based on true events but the characters have been fictionalized if you would like to read a book about a world where possessing books is a legal read Fahrenheit four fifty one by Ray Bradbury. If you think teenagers should have access to books that show everyone how to cope after assault that allow teams access to speak by Laurie Halse Anderson if you think team should be aware that physical relationships should not be entered into lightly that allow them access to sisterhood of the traveling pants but and procedures. If you would like teams to know that they can still be loved even after they have made mistakes that allow them access to redeeming love by Francine rivers. If you would like to read a book that explains why but banning is wrong read banned this book by Alan Gratz and if you would like to see a world where teens are free to read vote against SP eighty one thank you. Thank you miss part six we have speak against the bill remember young young until. You come to the end of the table once again that remind people that tried to there are comments and. Since be sustained thank you. Thank you my name is Robert I'm the executive director of intransitive a local transit any station and I'll I'll keep it short You know it's be eighty one. Is an attempt to. Censor the existence of an anti appropriation of you we do you folks you can. Try to change that name in a different way but that's exactly what what's going on we can tell because of all the other bills being introduced the problem here for you all is that this opens up the door for other types of censorship. It will eventually end up censoring materials that you'll agree with. Last year at least three counties across the country more versions of the Bible from school libraries. In Skagit county Florida someone complained about the Bible being inappropriate for children the complaint said that the Bible promote sixes sexism sex violence genocide slavery rape and ****. It includes examples of eating children and causing religious trauma syndrome. It also happening counted district taxes anyone's bill district Missouri where children's Bible stories were pool for complaints of the patient's of sexual explicit material which included sexual intercourse genitalia or southern masochistic abuse. if you read the Bible as well as I do. You wouldn't know the language of as BT one will apply to the Bible. And before you decide to know as BT one will not cause bibles to people based on cherry picking Bible verses remember that it has already happened entry states once as B. eighty one passes it will be up to you to the side of the public it's pole. It will be up to people in committees committees that will have LGBTQ people and our allies. You if you vote to pass as BT one today you will have knowingly and willingly given the tool to those who oppose by political teachings to ban bibles across Arkansas schools. We have over fifteen thousand followers on our social media alone. Why be live stream right now and a lot of them are talking about this very thing. If we're going to ban books because of the patience of. Things are being put into this bill you have to look at the Bible and you have to look at passages like the sun masochistic depictions of the crucifixion of the holy son. That falls under Saddam as a get some. There's the example of the bold guy who. gets ridicule and then he curses the children and the bear comes in each them and there's a ton of other examples like that so you know because he has already happened that the Bible is going to come down Nicks and we're gonna make sure that the the US to so if you want to ensure if you want to make sure that an entire population of people are being. Pulled out of existence then you're just making space for everybody else to come after things that you believe us well. Thank you next to speak against the bill is John McGraw. Thank you for a let me speak today my name is John McGraw when a member's of advocates for all Arkansas lottery's I'm also the director of the Faulkner County library I got my first library card at the functioning everyone as five years old I'm not ported library of a native our cans and library I work at the library of work the library that out for eight years we had only for challenges in eight years we're not swimming in challenges although I do receive letters from distant distant corners of the State suggesting I should remove books which I don't even have in my collection my books have limits their the book covers my age children have limits their the parents and my library has limits and that's the first amendment. General one the Bill government went into municipalities and counties and remove books about Germans and by Germans and about socialism and by socialists and if you think that solve the problem of Germany and socialism after war one I suggest you should get a library card. In nineteen sixty nine there was a famous case Everson verses Arkansas where it was determined that you cannot criminalize the teaching of evolution because of a sectarian viewpoint that says that evolution is a contrary to the Bible in nineteen seventy six there was a famous case Pico which was referenced earlier Pico there was some college or some high school students who were allowed to read Langston Hughes weren't allowed to read her vote to get were allowed to read things based on their viewpoint and that case took six years those German were out of college by the time it was determined as determined that you cannot take things out of context you have to take the thing as a whole and you can't discriminate against things just because you don't like Langston Hughes's viewpoint now those are arguments as previous people said there actually written into case law and even the dissents in the peak okay said this might be different if it was a public library but you know school's library should have tighter standards than that but still even there Supreme Court found that she couldn't discriminate against things based on a few points now and two thousand Wichita falls Texas tried this they came up with a nice low this it will work if three hundred people signed a petition saying remove this from the children's section we should remember from the children's section the court found that that was an over reach in two thousand three Cedarville Arkansas tried to get permission slips to read Harry potter and the chase that always to the courts and that costume six figures to determine that a permission slip for Harry potter is an overreach now. We have a pretty good bill here at what Senator Solomon has given us it looks very much like my reconsideration policy and I'm not here to talk about obscenity because I don't have obscene books I don't know if any library that has obscene books but section five the reconsideration policy takes things at the at the first level it says here your constitutional guardrails you can't take things out of context and you can't take the you have to consider that Alton four points if you are allowed you can't discriminate something just because you disagree with the view point those guardrails are absent when you send it to the quorum court and I don't think I don't think as was previously said that the library will simply be allowed to just simply ignore the ruling of a quorum court they they they appropriate my money every year they decided for going to have a budget if they're going to say you know we will if you're going to get a book about seahorses and sea horses have a very weird sexual thing this not like human people at all you know that's just a really out there for is suggestion press but a monster liberty event in Tennessee did have a disagreement with a book about seahorses based on their sexual activity seahorses don't do things the way we do but that's fine we're not advocating that people should become seahorses were not saying people should identify as yours as we would have that or simply identified differences and allowing people to read books about the world around them now iPhone what family believe that if we start kicking all the reconsideration policies up to the quorum court without any sort of guardrails on they're saying these are your constitutional guardrails you're inviting things like Cedarville we're six digit or six figure suits are gonna be brought against municipalities and counties when they can ill afford such a thing. Thank you Mr McGraw thank you. We have ten esto. Hello. Of. I'm T. and then the advocacy coordinator for intransitive and I am here to speak against SP eighty one and I specifically oppose the local and national rhetoric claiming that transgender queer and gender nonconforming people are harmful to minors and has represented Hudson mentioned it as B. eighty one passes books written by and for LGBTQ plus people are much more likely to be flagged and removed from shelves and a previous Speaker here today said he sent his child into the library to find obscene materials which. Seems really weird to me that if you claim to want to protect children that you would send your child in specifically to look for obscene obscene material but you know that he's the parent there they also listed books by and for trans and queer people and declared that librarians had a secret and obscene agenda. This is the path being laid out by SP eighty one no I was born in Little Rock and I was raised in Arkansas during the pre internet time and all IBM this room can relate to that so for me libraries or where I went to feel safe defined escape to find knowledge to try and find stories that mirrored my own and I wish that I had access to stories that mirrored my own then but transcript not on the shelves. And yet here I am a full grown transit and clear our cans in sitting before you know I do remember the first time I read it brate ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit four fifty one which have been mentioned earlier. Fifty one degrees is the temperature at which book paper catches fire and burns in this book is set in this dystopian future in which the press is oppressive society attempts to eliminate all sources of complexity contradiction and confusion to ensure uncomplicated happiness for all citizens and I don't know if you remember how this book plays out but eventually the people hired to banned and burned the books realize the absurdity of their job the main character finally recognizes that violently banning books is the opposite of freedom and dedicate themselves to preserving stories and fighting against the oppression he wants contributed to and I'm wishing the same realization for everyone here today sponsoring and supporting SB eighty one. And while the trans and queer youth and trans and queer people who are hearing this testimony today know that we will continue to tell our stories and share our history no matter where this bill lands thank you thank you we have next to speak against the bill Kristol Gates. It's Gates if you go to the end of the table you're recognized to make your statement. Chris okay I'm a parent of two children here in Arkansas my kids go to Cabot high school Cabot junior high north and speaking in opposition to this bill as a lifelong by every user myself with parents who did not censor what I read I learned all about the world around me I learned there were other states besides Louisiana I learned that there were other countries besides the U. S. I learned that there were other people than Christian right going to church every Sunday people and that they want people to you I learned all about each of you in different ways by having access to information my kids need that access to you and it's not anyone else's job to decide what my child reads just in the same way I don't want to decide what your child reads. Child. Readers tend to censor themselves we've seen that if you don't know the words you ask your parents for help how do I send this out how do I say this if you don't understand the concept you go into somebody what is this can you explain it to me can you share with me more about this I don't understand if there's something in a book you don't like whether it's I don't read thrillers I don't watch scary movies but you tend to center yourself I know I don't like the way this made me feel so I avoid that when my kid comes home with a book that he didn't like he said I don't really like this when do I have to read it no you don't have to read it they self censor themselves. I'm concerned about the amount of time and resources we're putting into a debate like this when it's lots of other things so many that can't be name that made me extremely emotional they're happening to our kids every single day that we should be focusing on it's the stories that our kids come home from Cabot school saying Hey there's this girl who was felt up by this boy he quoted her against a hallway and helicity number now and she didn't know what to do and she didn't know what to say want to resources for that there are guess what they're in the library Insecurities do not public private libraries but I. A lot of them provide meals for children who don't have those at home where is the government in that. That's what we should be focused on is that needs that our kids really have not telling other parents had a parent themselves thank you. Thank you next we have speak against the bill nation hal. To help you come to the end of the table state your name you're recognized. Ms Nathan how I am the father of a four year old board member of the friends of the garland county library and the assistant treasurer of the N. double ACP and hot springs Arkansas. thanks to the committee for taking the time to listen to me thanks to all of you who read my emails thanks representive Cooper who responded I appreciated that I had written remarks and I've listened to a lot of people today it said when I was gonna say a lot better than I was gonna say it so what I prefer to focus on rather than books because I know that Senator Solomon has made a point in previous statements to say this is about books just about creating structure I think that it is not paying attention to the amount of resources that are going to be needed to create said structure on a daily basis I create spreadsheets what I do for a living I can create a spreadsheet to request a challenge on ten thousand books in ten minutes. My library which is one of the larger ones in the state doesn't have the resources to handle ten thousand but challenges they're too busy providing things like tax services to residents of growing county the providing community meeting spaces there providing resources to the homeless community so that they can get things that they need. They also provide books but that is a very small portion for libraries exist to do libraries exist to allow us to have central as meeting places they allow all of you if you're able to come to your talents to speak to your constituents to provide a place for them to come see you and talk to you. Hi res aren't just about reading materials there's so much more and to create structure where we already have ways to make the challenges or to get things changed only need them change within our local communities I just don't see what we're doing so I appreciate your taking the time. Have a good one thank you mix we have speak against the bill Judy Calhoun. This Calhoun are you in the room. Thank you my name is Judy Calhoun I am a resident of a native of Arkansas and the regional director of the Southeast Arkansas regional library system my biggest concern is about the structure that will be taken for challenge books I have a five county regional library I have a twenty five member board. I have five county quorum court systems that I would have to deal with for every challenge book I cannot imagine the resources that is going to cost Southeast Arkansas to meet with these challenges. I I use the bill is is not good I mean it's it's it's something I would like to be reconsidered it it's it's not going to help us do our job any better we are have the education to help with challenges we listen to people I'm a mother I'm a grandmother and I know the worries that parents have about certain material that's good parenting we need to be able to do our job and we need to and we do it well for the most part if there's problems and then that needs to be addressed at a local level let the people let us do our job thank you. Thank you next we have speak against the bill robin Campbell. Good morning. I also believe. Representative to Hudson's questions reveal the reality of SP eighty one. Is an attempt to limit representation. And as others have said every child should be able to find stories about themselves. Their experiences and their families in the library thank you. Thank you miss Campbell mix we have Carol Fleming to speak against the bill is for me. Madam chair and committee good morning I am Carol Fleming a speech language pathologist serving as president of the Arkansas education association speaking on behalf of educators particularly raising the voice of our library media specialists and librarians you know it's a little ironic that the librarians and the library and the library media specialists are raising their voices because they're usually the ones telling us to each when when the library. Librarians are held to a high standard that ensures individuals particularly students in our schools have access to books that will spark curiosity and prepare them for academic success improve their imagination and creativity skills increase their concentration and improve their overall language skills and ultimately promote and cultivate and cultivate a lifelong love of learning. School districts already implemented accountability and oversight standards for the books media and materials that are utilize used and loan to students and community members in our library systems current state law requires schools to have a selection policy and a challenge policy any person adult or child can call into question material that they feel is inappropriate this is not new. As a licensed professionals librarians are trained to choose material which are appropriate and meet the wide range of student needs and interests published professional materials are utilized to aid in the selection process let's talk about the students those who look to our libraries as a safe space library and serve as an information specialist to assist students as they seek information for both academic and professional and personal use I guess it's professional once you get to college. Students are helped to select materials initially and taught to self select materials as they grow and mature censoring materials is a slippery slope. Librarian select materials but based on class needs as well as individual and student interests and needs material selected this year may be ignored next year and then utilized again in a couple of years however when a book is censored it is never available for anyone not now nor in the coming years. Lastly the proposal of Senate bill eighty one raises the question of its adherence to title six chapter twenty five which states the General Assembly is committed to the development and improvement of strong library media programs in all schools and the school media collection should provide resources that contribute to lifelong learning while accommodating a wide range of differences and instructional methods interest and capabilities thank you. Thank you mixed up to speak against the bill is Judson Scanlon. Good morning good afternoon I should say. Name is Judson Scammon I am a resident of North Little Rock I'm a graduate of Middletown high school I've lived in the state for many many many years I'm also a small business owner of three businesses and I hold a real estate license on top of that I'm the parent of two children well once not a child anymore in fact just had his first grand baby so it's very exciting for us. I want to tell you a quick story and this is how the story begins my daughter went to the library and checked out a book. When I came home from work one day she came running to me really quickly. It means mom's excited about this I'm like what is it about a boy it's called magical ability it it's a it's it's it's. It's a graphic novel that depicts the story of a young child whose age who's transgender and actually goes through them their process with her family my daughter is not transgender but I am and she was extremely excited about the idea that she could actually learn something about my life but she could actually see into my world in a way that connects us it was a bonding experience for the both of us that we were actually able to share because of a book. Now this bill would actually take that experience possibly away from us because this bill is vote came from the Lehman library and I'm very very happy for that the other thing that I'm really happy about this at all over my neighborhood exist small lending libraries I will gladly stuff with the books that are banned from libraries around this country the other thing that I'm really proud of is the fact that we can actually get any library from The New York library in the library book we want to eat is available to any child. This bill could possibly take books off of the shelf in our state as we have seen attempted in the past. But it does not stop access to this instructional information that I was barred from seeing as a child and had to deal with as an adult I ask you to vote against this bill and remember the fact that libraries are not bullets in the gun they should not be compared to things that kill libraries actually help people live full lives thank you. Thank you and next we have Nate Coulter to speak against the bill. Thank you madam chairman thank thank all of you for staying in this is a. Committee meeting for so long I would be very brief I have a like most of the witnesses so my whole life in Arkansas. I'm the director of central Arkansas library system for seven years before that in another life I was a lawyer for over thirty years I spent a couple years on the factual school in fable. And I know the intent of this bill is what the centers open says it is and what some of the witnesses and supporters said It is to protect our children. It is to resist the forces of our culture that seek to secularize children I'm a parent of three grown children I'm a grand father now and I sympathize with those efforts it's a tough world out there be raising children in the the cultures Corser it's for more vulgar it's the uglier than it was when I was a child and national Arkansas longer ago than I want to remember. But those problems are not coming from the library. Most of the people who in these libraries who've been speaking today in all three hundred people who work at my library simply celebrities to. Care about your kids their allies would you and raising your kids are allies with teachers in educating your kids they're not I know this is not your intent but they don't deserve the vilification and the targeting that this bill has done to them. They don't get paid a lot of money to like teachers and educators and other positions Arkansas they do because they love your children they will take teacher children they want to give them shown access to resources that will help them reach their potential. oftentimes libraries like teachers get told stories of some child who was in the library who was knuckle head to the library had patience with that child help that child find something that to the trigger that shows capacity that's what what rooms are doing but the effect of this bill but I just want to highlight to. It is is I think more practical than verification librarians. Senator Solomon said that he has been meeting with the Arkansas association counties municipally and he admitted they don't like the bill. Thank you is responding to representative Collins is questions about whether or not the bill was going to set up local elected tribunals to decide what the law was to I do think that's what he said here in this chair is that he wanted the city councils in the quorum court's determine what is obscene and what you come alive was based on local standards. But put aside whether that's the what the law allows or not. What he told represented Collins was the local government advocates. Don't like this bill. Yesterday I was meeting with one of the mayors of the library and in one of the committee celebrities to represent one of the small towns. That mayor knows this bill is going to deliver a lot of headaches. The city council. Kelly judges know this bill is going to trust all of those discussion you've heard this morning in their quorum court meetings in their city council meetings they don't want that. But they also know in they don't want and with the municipal league in the county quorum court to the county association with this is going to drive up the risk management cost. Because what is clear to me as a lawyer for thirty something years in a faculty member this law school in federal there will be litigation over what constitutes obscenity. There will be litigation over whether the patient has a right to read something that's been banned or taken out of the library there will be litigation perhaps criminal prosecution of my employees I've already had employees asked me when you defend us if we get prosecuted the answer was one word yes. This is a lawyer for employment bill. And if you don't want your cities and counties pay in for these cost Richmond all mention the cedar Grove case and it was six hundred thousand dollars whatever was sixty lawyers are expensive. A lawsuit you expenses and if the council of the city loses the will the lawsuit because they took some broke out over content or viewpoint as represent Hudson as outlined you can get the public turns fees for the people who brought the lawsuit so I would implore you to look for another way to try to serve the intent the legitimate content that I have sympathy with them vilifying libraries in writing a huge blank check to your local governments which is what you're doing if you pass this bill eighty one thank you for your time. Thank you. Senator Solomon represent Gonzales you're recognized to come close for your bill. Thank you madam chair committee I appreciate your patience I'll go through this quickly you know I ask you but when I close before to listen to what. Testimony was against the bill or very little testimony against the bill very little. Mr Coulter's statement vilifying librarians is absolutely false I reject that. He also said this bill is to protect children I reject that. About the headaches that come from legislation shall go through those headaches every day. You volunteered to run for office to take on that responsibility the people are quorum court our city council volunteered spent thousands of dollars to run to do their job that's all we're asking them to do just to your job. You had a lot of testimony about There are two sides of this issue absolutely this is a very important issue for our community and for our state I understand that. All this bill does is set out a process you heard people say that you're one one testimony was that the Bible was a bad you may get ripped out the bill specifically says the book taken as a whole and it's gone all the way to the Supreme Court multiple times about material that is said to be obscene and also you know our courts that's their job that's what they do and to say I think Mr Coulter said at the this is been cast upon the the quorum court of the city council to determine whether it's obscene folks they can't do it no matter what Mr Coulter says they cannot determine obscenity they can determine if they want to move a book but they can't determine obscenity and a librarian says I want to obey you they can do that this bill doesn't prescribe that now the quorum court may take action again that's their job. This bill does is a couple things I'll wrap up trying to representive Gonzalez if you once wanted if it removes the obscenity exception for librarians yes it does and harmful material they are now subject to the same law you are the same all your businesses are the same law that everybody else is in the State I don't know why they would object to that if they're not doing it. It also makes the appeal process consistent and transparent you're right we've had several people testified that they already have a process in the. Arkansas school board recommendation they have to have a process but they don't so that process is and there's no mandate and that's what this bill does as I already mentioned it codifies a process so across the state if the same folks that's what we do that's what we do on a statewide basis. The fear that everyone suggest and that feel threatened that I'm going to go to jail or we're gonna go to jail or vilifying people it's clearly outlined before told you how many times knowingly is in there so one has to knowingly violate those laws and again your quorum court can cannot officiate and make that decision. And folks how long about court's been been they are before a flaw since the beginning of our nation they do a pretty good job and if it takes them doing a more of a job or a bigger job that's what they're there for. We had one of the librarians testified that she made mistakes. And that this the bill and didn't necessarily account for that I think is how she stated that that's that's what it's for if you make a mistake it's not intentional there's not a problem however in the School systems it's not transparent the school can go behind closed doors to make a decision and never offer of a review or a view of why they made the decision that it made again we're just make you get consistent. I'll close with this you know the one the Mr across think it was said that three hundred people stood up and made an argument for our and he said the permission slips were needed. Give me a break I'm in the courts decide these things and three other people have no jurisdictional power over anything this bill does one thing it codifies and makes consistent and transparent with those processes are state one. There you have it in fact yes Sir I just want to go back in and clarify the the we're not changing any definitions about what obscenity is or what's what's considered harmful to children those things are already outlined in law we're not touching that You know the biggest question to me is is should someone in a school or in a public library have a to defense to prosecution for providing material to to kids that myself as a parent don't have so that's kinda what it comes down to for me. Yeah let me make one comment you know when the when the testimony was that there are abused children that are reading books and their parents are going to abuse them because of the book they read and that they think this bill forces them to tell the parent this bill says they may tell the parent so the library and it assumes that some child is abused with no evidence by the way other than their conjecture if they if they think that's going on this bill allows them to withhold that information and I ask for that was brought up in an early conversation with the library association and I ask for do they have any cases where that's actually been proven so everyone is going to court and a parent has been accused of beating their child because of what their trip to the library I still am waiting for any court cases to justify that so again there is a big issue people that say it's not it's a waste of time I think there are a lot of us that would agree and I would ask for a good vote thank you. And there's Senator Solomon is close first bill when wishes of the committee. And when the motion to do pass some for any discussion of the motion represent Collins recognized for discussion. Thank you madam chair and I agree with the sponsors and I don't really think this is about one's personal politics I think we should look at the bill and evaluate the bill and see if the bills worthwhile on its own merits and I just don't think that this bill is ready for prime time it's got so many problems that many of which we discussed early on but just to to talk about a few of them one is that you are appealing a judgment to a legislative body in this bill that's what a quorum court is that's what a city council as they make laws they aren't suited they are expert in evaluating individual claims that come up through appeal and that's what this bill would have been do it is a violation of separation of powers and they're just not prepared for it and I think it would cause chaos to your is that section two is that so many issues but it takes the defense and by changing that one word claim to determined it makes it absurd you are talking about a determination having already been made when you're talking about a defense to the claim that would then be adjudicated in the determination doesn't work the other thing is well represented Gazaway brought up it actually increases the protection I don't think on purpose for museums for some reason now you'd be immune if you already have a determination of obscenity against you and I'm not sure that's intended I don't know why we need to be granting more protections when the existing law was adequate and the other thing that this does is that it lets people come in from across the state and impose their own standards when they challenge materials in a different community that's not reflective of local control that's not what we should be doing frankly it's going to lead to a lot of people traveling around and and making challenges at. Absolutely is going to happen it should be limited to the patrons of the library if we're gonna even have anything like this to people who work in that community or the library yes so forgetting about one's politics forgetting about what one night and they believed to be seen on this bill itself I don't believe this bill is something we should pass somebody now thank you. Right members saying no further discussion we have a motion on the table to pass all in favor of the motion please say aye. All opposed say no the nose habit the builders failed members were in recess until fifteen minutes after.