Judiciary Committee - Senate

Ten thirteen ten thirteen yes Sir. It's next to. R. center lane if you identify yourself for the record. Thank you Mr chairs Greg Leding state senator district thirty presenting house bill ten thirteen on behalf of representative having flowers I would note that the chair of the Senate Committee on Judiciary is these lead Senate sponsor on this legislation. Thank you Senator. So I've been up to the representative flowers gave me to that nearly all Kansans of committed a nonviolent felony and paid their debt to society Love serving a life sentence with regard to their second amendment rights it's about half of US states provide a pathway for non violent felons to restore the right to possess a firearm even though the Supreme Court and said at least three occasions that states can restore these rights not only through a pardon but also by legislation like this bill currently the only way in our canton was been convicted of any felony including a nonviolent felonies to a pardon from the governor so Senator flowers at a hearing for much for constituents got together with Senator Stubblefield senator Caldwell to work on this issue with attorneys may see I see the Arkansas state police in the prosecutor's association of the final bill amend some existing comprehensive record sealing act to allow a person is convicted of certain nonviolent felonies The person in question would have to complete their disposition with the state prison jail any any fines probation parole any restitution to petition the court in which they were convicted for restoration of the second member rights the petitioner confined for restoration with the court at least five years after paying their debt to society if the petition is denied they may petition the court again after at least a year following the Nile prosecutors to prosecutors weigh it on these petitions to ensure that there are no existing charges or other issues of concern that should be considered by the court there's no fiscal impact of the bill the bill has bipartisan support with fourteen members The House and nine members of the Senate something I never thought I would say is that I'm a co sponsor of the bill supported by the gun owners of Arkansas and to a women of Arkansas house to support this bill. And the Arkansas Attorney General the Arkansas prosecutors association the Arkansas sheriff's association or all neutral on the bill. All right let me let me just give a brief background of how I got involved with this bill I was at a a friend of mine's is welding shopping Ozark any was tell me about his son. had gotten a are you driven to drove away from a traffic stop like twenty five and I'm not you this is twenty five years ago. And he said this to his son still cannot hunt with his grandkids and I said how can that be. So it wasn't two weeks later that I talked to another guy who had written not check when he was like eighteen and he had went. Property he drove a truck from Oklahoma all the way to Dallas every day this is what this was like forty years here's what what that is. Second amendment rights. And the soccer spoke to senator call will Ballard and and Vivian got involved. And I had no idea there was that many people out here. Who had committed a non violent crime. And we're going with other second memorized which is a. That's a god given right. Here to us by god not not the government so that's how I got involved in it. And. A I would guess we catch people who speak on the bill for the bill. I understand the AG's office was supposed to have someone we want to. If they were they don't have to be in the room. Your neutral. Any questions committee have any questions. Senator Ricky you're recognized the western. Thank you Sir Senator Leding I'm also a co sponsor of the bill. Of. Is there any chance that We are including individuals. In this. List of people that we would be allowed to go through this process. We might regret. Allowing them to. Regain this right. I've gone through the list as well as I can but my limited knowledge of. Criminal code. The a great question for the sponsor of the bill It just so I make sure I understand this correctly. Person may file in for petition for more years after the completion of the person's sentence. For any felony that is not listed in this list. Correct so that would exclude all those that you see there so do we we have a list of the ones that are. Is a really long list is a short list it's a really long list. I wish I I wish I had that lists have a list of the non violent felonies the opportunity would you care to come up and just give you I know you worked pretty diligently with we will know your hours on this issue. You can brush of some light on some of this we went through with you. Bob McMahon prosecutor coordinator question yes Sir we we did work go go through the list anyway at the bill was very different you know time we were working on but we did it Senator Ricky we did go through this and and assisted with that particular list and I I mean I guess it's possible there could be something there that that was left out but from our asked beg we tried to make sure that everything that we considered violent or serious was included there for that individual couldn't have the rights restored as far as the other list I mean I'm I'm not sure if there is another list that exists but I do think it would be lengthy but the particular list that's in the bill to exclude the restoration is something we worked awful hard to make sure that that it was people that we you know wouldn't be comfortable with having those those farm rights is or somebody you know that that is also going to get it right restored it we wouldn't want that I mean that's that's possible of course but I you know that wasn't our intent or think anybody's intent so I I feel pretty comfortable out the statute the code sections that are in there but as far as the other listed you referred to you I think it be it would be a lengthy list but they they should be you know nonviolent that kind of stuff would you agree by that there are people out there who would be more trustworthy. With the weapon committed one reason someone posed. You never absolutely I mean are we are so that I can could you know it's it's that people are unpredictable but but yes Sir I would agree with that statement. Okay Senator Ricky the Westerman. I don't see. Many if any. Drug crimes on here people who. Sold or trafficked drugs whether B. Fenton all or. After I substances or I would have to go to the list but I I would imagine most of the drug offenses are not going to be violent so they're not going to be excluded that makes sense I'd have to pull the list but again most of the the the drug offenses are again going to be non violent so the intent would not to have had them on my list as violent crimes but when you get into trafficking and things like that I don't know if their their list or not six yes so it is included on list trafficking is everything else I just have to I probably have to look up a trafficking is included on page five line thirteen okay thank you. And then I can also see if it up the criminal gang organization or enterprise is included as well so again those are couple the serious offenses that would involve drugs but out the intent is you know most of those are non violent so. Senator Rice your question. What a yes vote by Bob is gonna can answer my questions more under current law. The way to request a pardon or parole is ten years is that correct I believe that is that is correct is it uniform across the board or is it different for some I think that uniformity and in our comprehensive comprehensive records retention act I think this this act is a little different than that because I think there's procedure near the talks about five years but again about being neutral on the bill like I'm not sure I can answer every single question but I believe that that yes you're correct on the ten years across the board this bill I think talks about a five year period is it it does Do you know currently and I use this Committee previously today. We're someone who had in an old. Violation I guess it would be a felony Lobster farms rights. And went through the process of all paid lawyer that their deal sealed whatever. Staff they they want the. Wonderstruck anybody they were able to group somebody got beat up and they were out west on National Forest and a federal game wardens. Got to the farm away and I'll. Is there anything in this would have any influence on the federal I don't believe so I of the sebi state law I don't think that has any in cross reference or anything that would I don't I don't believe we could pass something like that that would affect low but I'm not aware of anything in the bill that that would trump the federal law I didn't I didn't think so that that the You know. We're we're saying and I mentioned this over now we're seeing a lot of legislation this time because of social. Patterns change in our society people are becoming more aggressive they're becoming many times more violent there. More disregard for our respect for law enforcement for laws and rules. And that is I think we're all saying that. Well I have worked with people to help get through the parole request. Pardon request. if the letter support in for the governor to you I try to be selective it doesn't make any difference to me what social status they are then move there can do whatever else or some I just won't do it nurse I think are true that I asked the last governor and that a. I hadn't had a conversation this governor about a pardon but that's one one the first line I ask do you believe if somebody's paid their debt to society they have the right. To receive a part. In the last governor said yes I need to have that conversation with car on. I've got to. Hesitancy on the five year. team here I don't think is while that may seem dramatic to the younger generation until you passage lock or anything. In. This is for the sponsors not for you. I have I don't think ten years is too long Rick white Rick. To request I it bothers me a little bit it takes a year to eighteen months to get it through the the system to get it to the governor and it can take up a pretty good amount of time after that six months or a year or whatever even with maybe some. Richey but can you give me any. Anything. Senator Leding that would deal. I put my mind at ease it the people out here that are respecting law there they're still working to live the right kind of life they're not doing drugs or not doing all these things for. That we don't have a good list Is there anything you can do give me peace of mind that we need to shorten this and make it that much more advanced. You're good I know. I would say. We run other pieces of legislation passed other pieces of legislation to this body aiming to restore certain rights people have paid their debt to society I believe in the power of restorative justice that someone has paid their debt which do everything in our power to get them as fully reintegrated back into society as possible we heard Senator Stubblefield the story about The grandfather is not able to take his kids hunting for a hot check I believe you said was is is crime we recognize the value of hunting in Arkansas I believe we would have a consummate protecting the right to hunt and just believe that this bill is a good thing to do for again just people who've or convicted of nonviolent felonies but I we do now have the lead sponsor of the legislation at the committee's permission if she has something she'd like to add to the conversation. Can I go of representative and she can sure In the one to Senator Stubblefield mention. Could go through the same process and everybody else goes to and I did not add to that but. You the best one of the best way I've found that it works is get your local community that knows you again this after ten years that knows you that feels like you're no threat and they want to restore back we'll give you letters could be from a church some people have no church affiliation you can be from private citizens normally it does good to get a letter from your chair for local law enforcement police chief or something that it is ready and in the process works it. It's slow but if I think it's it it does the right thing so I appreciate that and we will call a let me just say something centrust that that's one of the Egyptian Drug me it struck stuck out to me was when I talked to the local share of the mayor and all these manner suppose but pillars of the community they wouldn't they backed up the fact that this young man was was a bill to committee he's what. They wanted their sons to be locked. Because he drove off from a traffic stop I made the. Everyone of us in this room have made some kind of mistake much greater than some of these and that we didn't lose our second amendment rights. And that is a to me that's a very sacred thing because it's granted us by god to be able to protect ourselves in a world is getting more violent. And the and some of these young men are simply young man that made a bad. But one that I mean when you compare these crimes to what the crimes were saying today with that now I mean writing a hot check. You lose your second memorize for twenty five thirty years. Somehow that just doesn't add up to me. The centers of representative flowers your. You're recognized speak represent flowers thank you so much and thank you for your patience and I want to thank us Senator Leding first sitting in with just a page and a half of notes I try to listen while I was waiting for a bill to come down that I was supposed to speak on so again thank you for allowing me to come in late and speak of I wanted to address one of the little bit that I heard on what Senator Rice was raising one of the things that and and I don't know if you all knew that I presented the bill in early February and the Bill failed by two votes. And as a matter of fact the two co sponsors ended up not voting because of some of the concerns that they heard from the opposition that was expressed I want to address the the constitutional concern that was first expressed by the AG's office as well as the governor's office that we were able to really fix with the assistance of the AG's office who who is now neutral so you have a pardon. Which. Applies to everybody so from the hot check writer to someone who's committed murder. And the pardon actually return someone to the position that we initially started to with this bill which initially included discharge and dismiss which was a huge concern of this now we kind of went back and forth I still think that it's constitutional and doesn't it is not an end run around the park but that's a huge distinction the Supreme Court in at least three opinions that was shared with me by the AG's office identifies that there are different ways in which restoration can happen including a bill like this which X. returns of the civil rights of someone who is committed a felony but doesn't take them back to a position of this charge in dismissing their case for of pardon and that is one of the reasons I believe that we were able to Get to a neutral position with folks who came in it And expressed opposition initially. for anyone who might be concerned about someone kind of slipping through the cracks I think that what we have in this bill is different from even other states who return or restore rights and there is not a petition process there is not engagement by the prosecutor there are no you know letters that someone would seek from their local share of there is not a judicial decision maker from the original conviction like we have in this bill in other states sometimes some of them Simply provide for a time frame and then the rights are automatically stored I believe there were five states like that. But many states offer some sort of pathway just about half of the state I want to say it was like twenty six states offers some sort of pathway for nonviolent some of the states offer a pathway for violent offenders within off with an automatic restoration so I think what we're doing is exactly what Senator Rice is expressing concern about and that is making sure that there is a process that we are looking at you know what the offense was that we're making sure this person hasn't been arrested sense or that they're not the subject of you know in order of protection or that the crime was in a misdemeanor of of domestic violence those are all concerns that we put in the first bill and the change that we made is also address that was sure to me address by the AG's office by instead of having it in its own code section putting it under the the ceiling act I know I'm not saying that the complete title right but at the comprehensive ceiling at. Is there a reason is there a of recidivism rate for non violent offenders I'm really glad you asked that question so one of the things that I was able to find in sort of researching these issues is that the department of justice did a a couple of longitudinal studies everyone was looking at the recidivism rate for All Allen so not just nonviolent felony offenders for all felons in the federal system. And it looks like after eight years of conviction after eight years that that the recidivism rate went down to three percent. After ten years in the longitudinal study for about thirty six states that were included in that and the study for state felons the recidivism rate rate went down to twenty percent after ten years now the thing that we need to look at what this is when we started out and you were at the table when we started out we were saying well ten years sounds good it sounds safe and what we did initially was set we said we're going to do a ten year after the disposition has been complete with one bite at the apple and the dismissing this charge associated with that. What we did with the amendment that was recommended by the AG's office is put it under the ceiling act which is an existing process and they felt more comfortable with that and I suppose that the prosecutors association to do because they actually recommended this from the beginning is we're we are not for example doing the dismiss and this and this charge so that takes away the constitutional concerns we're also not requiring the judge if he or she did not as the petition to note the reason for denial we also in the process in the other language had to open up consideration on issues that may have not been specific to the initial conviction for the concerns that the prosecutors association had because they gave me some examples that might not be directly related but might need to be considered by the judge in the case and and looking at something like that so I think that when you look at who is all involved in this process. And look at all state also look at the fact and really remember the fact that we are trying to create a pathway for non violent offenders and not just not for all non violent offenses for some night non violent offenses so for these nonviolent offenders who did not use a weapon and did not use violence in the commission of the crimes they were convicted of. These folks. Have done everything that they were asked to do in this case. And then what we're saying is after five years and as a matter of fact for the pardon it's it is eight years for everybody so you could be convicted of a violent crime and after eight years of completing your disposition with the state pursue a pardon but one of the reasons that we thought it was fair and appropriate to create a pathway for nonviolent offenders is because they were not violent because they did not use a weapon so when you think about that and think about the recidivism rate and how these would be people who outlast the typical recidivism and people who weren't violent and then say Hey we're gonna and now open this process up to you which you still have to be considered by the prosecutor and the judge I can tell you with insurance based on all the data that I have seen in other states that we would be doing at least as much if not weigh more than many but many other states who provide this pathway to. Okay Bob. If I wanted to go out. It's two oh three thirty I want to go out and. Purchase a gun could I get a gun by six thirty here in Little Rock. Center I'm not sure I have that or less you be speculating but wouldn't it be rather easy if I want to get a gun I would I would think so you would think so I mean you get procedures you obviously have to all that but I don't know what they're still selling you know it. I mean but here here's the thing. About these these individuals to have committed this time uh felony. They have some of them have went twenty thirty years. When I could have gotten it done at any time during that period of time but the mere fact that they lived all those years going without a weapon are being able to read sacrificing not been able to take their kids duck hunting deer hunting any the mere fact that they did that. And by the law all those years. Tells me a whole lot. About this individual because if if if someone had bad intentions I have a gun before the sun goes down that's right. Mr. Yes if it if I could add a couple of things to to address something that I heard earlier may I. Thank you you we've been talking a lot about In. one of the witnesses that testified in the two hour hearing that we had that was held in house judiciary was a woman and she was very courageous in presenting because she was worried like most people are about people being aware of her felony record her conviction was for drugs and she was a drug addict she did everything she was supposed to do and got a life back together she ended up getting a great job and she lives in an apartment complex where she is creeped out by one of her neighbors she can't protect herself and so please when you think about this consider women and consider the families Who are not able to protect their homes I can tell you all that I never in a million years thought that I would ever be at the end of the table running a gun bill. I grew up not being allowed to even play with toy guns. and then I was a grown woman and I'm a single woman and I've lived by myself and now I'll still have my house in in part stay with my parents who are aging and take care of them. I'm on the road as you all know back and forth all the time. By myself and I was burglarized when I lived in Little Rock twice so I got my first gunmen and then when I have my house in pine bluff I've been burglarized twice since. in that time I decided to get a concealed Kerry license and and bought another gun. Never thought that would ever happen but. I'm a free American and I decided I needed to do something to protect myself. I never thought about what happens to people who never did anything to hurt anyone but themselves. not having that right until my constituent came to me and he had been in trouble he said by for a drug crime about twenty years ago. right before I came to you with this issue and found out that you and senator Caldwell Mister chair we're working on the issue and he has a family now you know he has a business he has a job and one of in his business is landscaping and he told me that he wants to take his son with him to do his landscaping but he is afraid to take him with him because I didn't know that lawn mower jacking apparently these riding lawn mowers lawn mower jacking is a thing. And. You know after him telling me that and be thinking about the fact that if he has a weapon in his home and something happened he could end up going. The president. For just having a gun in his home in protecting his home if he had a gun on his person and was protecting himself. As a victim of a crime. He would be in trouble and so you know those are the kind and I promise you I have gotten so many calls from our colleagues who. Have have shared the same story. Okay sent to you have a question. Thank you Mr chairman just to follow up on what we're visiting that little bit ago trafficking. Does that include. Dealing or manufacturing and if those individuals. If all they were doing was manufacturing or dealing. Would they be charged with crime of having a gun. Or would that possibly be left out if the. But they may they may not have committed a violation I like please please well they may not have committed a violent crime while dealing or manufacturing. But we find a lot of times that guns are present right and maybe afford an important part of that industry. Not in in me not understanding this code fully I'm I'm uncomfortable as a sponsor the bill among comfortable I mean these people have been adjudicated and their the rights been taken away through due process but even though that may be a non violent crime or considered a non violent crime I would be very uncomfortable returning those rights. Until okay I would be uncomfortable voting for this bill with those crimes in there if I understand your question Senator if an individual is arrested right now after having committed any felony you know right now because there's no restoration farm rights right now that's what this bill is trying to do so if they were arrested with a firearm they B. felony possession of a firearm so that's that's the first question I think you're asking about your regional question by the traffic or that you asked me earlier traffickers are exempted out of this bill but you mentioned a dealer or manufacturer they would that they would not be exempt under this bill as I read it because they're not traffickers somebody that had a weapon if they were in possession of a weapon while in the commission of of selling drugs that would be considered a violent crime correct yes okay that's what you're asking if they're dealing or manufacturing in their in possession of a weapon that and moves it to the to an aggregate to a violent felony it could yes Sir it could but does not mean we I believe we could charge that if if we wanted to yes Sir I mean it's going to go to prosecutors question understand your question but I was trying to answer questions originally when we focused on a trafficker in the in the second round of questions you ask whether applied to the some of the things that you said was dealing drugs in it and and they would not be exempt under this bill that's a difference okay I'm hope I've answered your question I think thank you if I could add to because that was something that came up in terms of plea agreements we know that many of these cases are settled and in these plea deals and there was a concern about someone who did commit an act of violence or didn't possess a weapon in the commission of a crime but what they were actually charged and convicted of that reflect that and I remember calling Bob about that and and he actually pulled his members he said that that rarely if ever happens but I. It also impress upon you that that is the very thing that the prosecutor in the case of a petition would share with the judge to say Hey we've looked through this case don't forget this person was alleged to have had a weapon in the commission of this crime and therefore we recommend that this petition petition is not granted and I think when we think about the process because I understand you're you're concerned but that is not something that we didn't talk about and address. And and I've. I'm sure that that you know the Attorney General and if that was something that would be likely under this bill or I would dare I say even possible under this bill to go I notice there's no way that they would not be at the end of this table expressing opposition and I don't think there's any way that they would have shared with us language that they felt comfortable with that we could move forward with and there's no way that eighty five of my colleagues on the house side what is voting for and many of my conservative Republican spoke for so I just want to allay your concerns because I wouldn't push something forward that would. Likely results and so anything falling through the cracks I think that if we look at how other states have done and look at the care that we are taking in this bill and that we try to take over the last two years and hammering out language that addresses the issue of many of our constituents. respects I think the second amendment rights that many of you hold dear and express and bills that I. Know that I could still make. But this one I think we can all come together and agree that people who have made a mistake and may and committed non violent offenses and go through a process that the prosecutor in the original injured engaged in is is fair. Okay thank. Are there any other questions from committee. This. Senator flowers you want to close. We have someone in the audience. I was just notified to committee here to speak okay if you want to come up to the table and identify yourself. I apologize for being late a lieutenant colonel Jason with the Arkansas state police. speak against this bill. The Arkansas state police the with other currently is upon a process in place for convicted felons losing those gun rights is part of a deterrent for being convicted of a felony. We actually believe that it's the look back should be instead of five years go back to ten years. And a commercial burglary and delivery controlled substance is not included in this bill. It's just. Number of being convicted of a felony the part of that people know its you you lose those gun rights and there is a place our process in place currently to have those gun rights restored. Are there any questions from committee. You're recognized. Thank you what is that process of the pardon process to seek a pardon from the governor okay thank you. Your questions from committee. Senate sent anyone else the audience which speak for against the bill. Senator flowers you're recognized Claudel Sturch nothing representative. Search for some of the representative flowers you're recognized closed thank you we do have Senator in the Senate yes we do yes we do is my senator. I I've I will. Well first of all I wanted to share that I've had several meetings with secretary Hagar and he came and was the only one to speak against the bill in the in the second time that it passed out of almost unanimously I think there were three voices that set now The constitutional issues that have been expressed about the existing pardon have been addressed in this bill and the other thing that I would add is that The pardon process is. Very rarely approved and is it can be expensive and is lengthy and I think that if we just remember that this is a process for non violent offenders And also remember that in the amendment. Far more issues and exclusions would apply so just that laundry list. Is what we had in the initial bill what the AG's office assured me of is having more latitude going before the judge and and being placed under the the The comprehensive ceiling act. Affords for more of the. Nonviolent I'm sorry the violent offenses to be considered and of course excluded from those eligible for this petition and finally I just would ask you all you know I know that. When we tell people if you do the crime you do the time. I don't think that anyone in America. And I I think that I feel comfortable saying this. Understands I didn't know that for people who are not violent basically are sentenced to a life. Time. Ban. Most people will not get a pardon. It in you all know you know no governor hands out pardons. To most anyone parties can be very political and not just political and disseminating them but even political and considering them and they should be we should be concerned about what could happen if someone's right is restored. But again for people who did not use a weapon who were not violent in the commission of a crime and for people who go through a petition process that includes the prosecutor and the judge who originally convicted them. Creates balance creates restoration. And really does respect. The second amendment rights that we all say are so important. So when we think about someone who has. Committed a petty crime committed been addicted to drugs. Let's remember that when those folks have paid their debt to society and become productive citizens we should afford them the opportunity to protect their homes and their families and their businesses. Through a process. That I think. Covers the cracks and and with that Mister chair I will close and ask for a good vote. Our. Thank you representative flowers. Sure entertain a motion. Second I have a second. I will second. All those of favour interest instruction on the motion. All those in favor. Hi. All opposed. No seven. Thank you Committee thank you committee thank you Mr. Mr chairman here is there if I don't assume there's any chance we're gonna come back and committee today not not okay so needed no. For jurors. You.