Joint Performance Review (JPR)

All right members audience thank you for being here today for the joint performance review committee we have the sign up sheet that's being handed out right now that if you want to speak on any of the subjects that are here and you are not listed on the agenda you need to sign up on that she has so that you can be recognized in a moment whenever you're subject matter that you hear to hear and to contribute to a comes up before the committee of members object of the committee today is to get an update as a result of the decision by the Arkansas auctioneers licensing board regarding a matter that was brought before this committee and then also we're gonna have a discussion from the Baxter County election audit results that they voluntarily did up there and get a report from Daniel shall choose the Director of the Arkansas state board of election commissioners regarding the auditing process of the fifteen counties that they are authorized to do audits on my goal objective is to get us out of here by eleven thirty just so you got a little bit of a comfort level if you are a member of the committee recognized you first for questions and and non members you will be recognized and be allowed to ask your questions as always we want everybody to feel so they had opportunity to participate with that being said would like to do is ask of for a consideration of the approval of the may twenty fourth minutes if I get a motion please. And a second. A discussion to the minutes that are being presented. Hearing no discussion all favor say aye opposed thank you very much next regular one time see on your during the and members there are some documentations or some documents had been handed out related to the subject matter you should have a copy of if you don't raise your hand or come up see staff will get you one and with that like to invite there were set cabinet secretary for department labor licensing and Steve Gunthorpe chief of staff for the department of labor licensing to come to the table please and German please remain stand if you would push the button from the and just state your name and title for the record first please. There will best that secretary of labor licensing. Steve young Thark chief of staff labor licensee general grocery in places would ask you to raise your right hand and dural again for the record before being sworn in which you state your name employer and position please Darrell bass that secretary of labor and licensing she would you do the same please Steve Gunthorpe chief of staff waiver licensing you shall we swear and affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do thank you John if you all would please take a seat. And I'm going to open it up to you to just give us an update as far as the decision of the licensing board of the auctioneers and let you give just open Mike to explain and then I think Director per set you have some some information we'll share with as far as your reaction secretary to the situation of this kind of up to you and then we'll take questions thank you Mr chairman members of the committee of. We have an update on the board meeting the auctioneers Board conducted a hearing on six nineteen just this week to determine if there is significant evidence to charge a Mr McGee do you need full name or I think we know we're we're we are there of Mr gate with violations of Arkansas Code seventeen seventeen one oh five along with nine separate allegations board did in fact conclude that there was sufficient evidence that evidence existed and it constitutes subsequently levied a civil penalty of two thousand two hundred and fifty dollars that's two hundred and fifty dollars for each of the nine allegations additionally Mr McGee's a license was suspended for one year and a half of. It A year and a half and it's license will only be reinstated after he appearing before the board and establishing complete payment of the civil penalty along with completing all new licensee requirements including but that are not limited to paying of the licensing fee submission of an application and completion of a background check in addition to that of the individual must complete the required continuing education hours for that particular license and must pass examination test upon approval of the board to sit for the examination Mr chairman if I might have just a little latitude here to explain what what's going on fortunately I was unable to appear at the last hearing on this matter I want to as secretary certainly apologize for any inconvenience the. The handling of this issue by my staff because you or because the the public you have at your Desk now three policies and procedures that I enacted once I got back in town and discovered what actually was going on in this particular instance but let me explain if I might. R. eighty L. L. works very closely with our licensees and with our industry partners to make sure that we address complaints that kami With the regulatory complaints enforcement complaints it whatever but we certainly depend when we're talking about are smaller boards we depend on individuals to actually come with a complete and tell us what's going on out there because they're smaller boards cannot afford full time investigators and so unfortunately this was the circumstance that surrounded this this issue a we were in the unenviable position of not having had a single complaint filed against this individual who was clearly acting unlawfully but we the board had not gotten any complaints on this individual during the entire time that they were practicing and that was from twenty fifteen to current when we did find out what was going on and clearly I wanted to express to my staff that it's not a staff decision is a board decision and the policies and procedures that you have before you clearly outline the protocol we did not take things we did not conduct ourselves entirely properly in this matter and for that we certainly apologize but as you read through these new policies and procedures that I've implemented we have close that hole and clearly I identified what the protocol should be in the case of these particular instances that is communications policies before you a revocation and suspension of a license protocols before you and a licensing issue of policies is is before you. Thank you Mr chairman I'll take any questions. Senate representative wouldn't. Thank you Mr chairman. Mr secretary were you clarify for me exactly what you fill your central office staff responsibility for the statutory responsibility of each of these boards and commissions would you would you elaborate. To what you think your steps responsibility is I think that I think the staff's responsibility is to be attentive to the board in this particular instance I will I will I will keep my comments on to this particular instance I think the board is that entity that should make the call on whether or not a license should be renewed or revoked all right and I think clearly that's why we have boards and commissions it is their responsibility and you'll find that we clearly I've clearly outlined that in the policies and procedures that you have before you now well the way I read what we should receive this morning and information you're inserting your staff in between the board and each one of the hired personnel for the executive director they have to report to the chief of staff they have to report to you have to report to the legal authority. Well that was the board and all of this the board was not committed at the last meeting which I don't understand the number in the department of commerce several years ago. And I had the same responsibility that you that but never involved myself in the actions of any thank board of insurance securities four story any of those. Well the central office we call it you all call it shared services but the central office had accounting responsibilities of budgeting and that type thing but they had nothing to do. And I didn't require them to report to me when they were doing with the statutory authority is a board to would you tell me what's changed now is this law business law change no Sir when I'm wire what what are they having to report to you. This is This Is internal communications of the I think we have to know if the if my entire staff executive team including secretary should know when we have an instance that's coming from the public or coming from a public official that is not to say that we're going to Dan ACT we just need to know and certainly I need to know when we have a problem with one of our licensees out there so that I can better manage my staff if I'm not of informed of what's going on in a particular division and it's impossible for me to be responsive to you and I certainly am always accountable to you it's impossible for me to be able to do that in this particular instance I wasn't apprised of what was going on in hand I've been apprised of what was going on I would have directed my staff to take this to the board and have the board make that decision not being apprised of course obviously gave me some level of concern which is why when I returned from to from out of town I created these particular policy so that everyone knows chain of command internally is to the the the root complaint needs to certainly come up through a chain of command internally and then once it's gotten to me and we're going to make that decision and that decision is going to be that the board has to make that decision so so what we've done is we've added another layer of bureaucracy if they're having of good let me let me follow up very quickly Mr chairman of a muddy up you stated that you're the board has not had a complaint alone Mr McGee at all. This black stated that two years prior. To Mr come close call after he got a call from the governor's office two years before that she had told Mister McGee that he was delinquent and they knew that he was delinquent and yet I will can you answer hello can you revoke a license that was a legally given. Which is the case in this situation so you're penalty at all that you've done is very good but the thing about it is it should never have occurred to start with. I'm Steve must go talk should of known the second that he called down there the date bureaucracy that bureaucrat miss black was going to jump through hoops to make that govern sure that that permit got issued just a license was renewed the board was never consulted. The chairman was never consulted none of the board members were consulted and then you want to come in here today and tell us that your sorry and I have seen nothing were any personnel has been dealt with because this was the legally none. It was not done according to the rule regulation is that correct yes that's correct. Thank you Mr chairman. Let me ask you a question over a representive string Springer the. The three. Policy directives that you've given or internal memos what would be the proper term you want to use for these that you get as. All policies and present okay of the three policies that you bring to us this morning in reaction to this situation happening date establish. A new policy that if you get a request from anybody whether it be administrative branch legislative branch of member of the public that this establishes the chain of command to make sure that the board is the one that should be handling it you're going to be apprised of the requested comes outside the normal channels absolutely okay that that's the nature of the policies are representative Springer. Good morning thank you Mr at of Mister chair and representative will you all have asked the questions that I want to S. thank you so much. And we're gonna go to hang on second here hello Senator Rice as a member of the committee and then next in the queue will be you senator pate senator rush the Mister appreciate receptor Act of. The the notice of suspension or revocation that you put in your hand out today that only applies to the the department of. Labor and lasting. Other government entities or not. Not required to do that well only the if I let my driver's license laughed I'm not going to notice you know you got Jessica divisions within chance yet but yes Sir the Senator just the divisions and okay yeah that's what a of the the other and I was going. Senator quiet last time and I just couldn't help it but it seem indispensable to me In center have been serving in what I see now my concern is read this book of before We used to have a rogue. Maybe a board member or a director or could even be a board could be considered a little bit out of bounds and we'd have to. Rangel member one particular director I need to go to go wild with the thank you bye. Got rid of that director. What my concern is now with. What happened in the last administration supposedly improve government. As may be now and I'm not faulting individuals we make individual calls I'm I called it may not be right. But when I was talking Mr Parker and trying to get information and and he was he shared that. Really but basically he is the one to give legal advice. To all agencies are boards under your domain is that correct that that's correct in there for the legislature is given the power over. To a bureaucratic process that it is tied to the executive branch regardless of who's in power. To make phone calls and say it's you need to do this that's what I saw last time that is very concerning it's not something you've done it's a process that the legislature agreed to do. But whatever you can do because used to we just had to work on the board and now if we're getting down to a single reference of legal interpretation because I ask the question do you can for or did you get an AG's opinion at least if you head over there a beer together when they give a determination I like more than one people to look at that was my concern so if you just take that include that in wherever you can but I'm afraid transformation we we may be find it a little the negatives of Frank we find in time thank you for being here thank you Mr thank you senator. And for members just so you know I'm sorry. Members just so you know we did invite the board of the president of the board be here but he had a option that was already scheduled another members also had conflicts with just want to put that out there for you all right we're gonna go to in the queue of got center Payton Senator Dismang and I think that you Senator Chesterfield you'll be next all right so Senator Payton. Thank you Mr and Mr Bessette I appreciate you being here I'm very close to the situation because I've been an auctioneer since nineteen eighty five and when the law went into effect in nineteen eighty nine we all had to get licensed and do continuing education every year part of the part of the requirements to get licensed is to pass a test which. Has a lot of questions about the Arkansas two years licensing law the anybody this license would have to be familiar with the law particularly the requirements to get a license and the expiration of that license every June thirtieth and a ninety day renewal per period so your memo regarding notifying somebody that their license is expired it seems ridiculous to me and when. You're turning Mr Parker at the last meeting secretary and tried to argue that there was a Supreme Court case it said that the state needed to notify licensees before they could revoke or suspend I I probably agree with revoke or suspend but expires is something totally different you look on the face you driver's license a clearly tell you when it expires if you look on the face of your Arkansas ten years license it clearly tells you when it expires. Not only that I'm like the driver's license which may be any day of the year for different people. The Arkansas auctioneer's license expires for every auctioneer on the same day every year never changes. So for a licensee to claim that they don't know missed the fact that there license expired. Is. Ludicrous for an eight year period that somebody would operate. It's clear by the order that resulted from the board meeting Monday night or Monday. That the. Auctioneers licensing board members understand this and most licensing boards we have. Contain members that are from that industry that profession and for the most part pretty familiar with the other people in that profession statewide. And obviously. From top from from me talking to board members and from the results of their meeting. They have familiar to you with this individual. And had they been involved in the. Favor that was done. Then there input would of would have stopped that favor from being done. Somehow the call came down through the chain of command to miss black. That she needed to issue this license but miss black herself by her testimony at the last meeting. Recognize this individual by name and the fact that he had inquired two years prior as to what he would need to do to renew his license she had informed him of what he needed to do we need to renew his license and he failed to take the first step into any of that. And then was able to obtain a license without even filling out an application. Or any other of the other standards what I need to know I need to I need a level of comfort from you. That. These directors that are department of labor license employees. That when I was on the board we call it call the person the board secretary. But we need to know what is their job description. Does the authority granted in law to issue a license or does that rest in the director or does that rest in the board members the rest of the board and what have you done in the last month or whatever to make sure that these directors understand that. Several things through memos obviously you've got to to re The three policies and procedures before you I think that closes the loop substantially what on in addition to that and I don't feel comfortable going into personnel actions that I've taken but I've just had numerous discussions with directors with regard to their roles their appropriate roles this was not an action that should have taken place this was clearly an action that was up to the board of the processing of the communication coming in certain great the director handles that chief of staff hands is that of of general counsel handles that I should be notified of it we as individuals within DLL DO not grant licences well I hate to cut you off but I just wanna say I appreciate your knowledge meant that this was a mistake this license should not have been issued I wholeheartedly agree with that. When it was when it was discovered that it had been issued and the circumstances that had been issued under. The president or chairperson worry column of the Arkansas Exeter's licensing board who is himself an auctioneer. Wanted to conduct an emergency meeting of the board. To correct the mistake. Miss Kelly black your employee. Told him that he did not have the authority to call an emergency meeting without her consent and that she would not provide a location or communication to the other board members to arrange an emergency meeting to deal with this situation and it wasn't until after we had our last JPR meeting that the board. President was able to schedule a meeting which took place Monday and we see the results of it here so can you assure us that the directors in your employees will respect the authority of the board when it comes to needing to deal with these issues absolutely Sir that again was done in there okay can you. Communicate that to your employees I have certainly Sir okay thank you and so I miss black situation is there a reprimand in her file there will be some okay and Mr. The Lonoke county judge dark Duggar when many of you may not know is also an accomplished auctioneer and he's here and he I think you signed up to testify but he's just like we have Roy Ragland at the last meeting Doug is subject to the exact same laws as the rest of us are and I think you would like to testify today as to as to what he's doing what he's having to go through to get his license renewed I appreciate it now turn the floor back over Senator Payton he's on the agenda to speak after we conclude hearing from a director was set in Mr Gunthorpe so he's on the he's on the agenda question I have and they will recognize Senator Dismang is this miss black operated on our own or did she receive direction as to what what to of how to handle this matter. Thank you Mr chairman when I learned of this instance I'd I'd met with Kelly misplay and asked her if she was the nine the board the ability to meet she said no that they were having problems getting a quorum for that specific day that's what she informed me at no point in time has any director or anybody on staff ever informed anybody that a board when they can and can't meet we do not get ourselves involved when a board can or can't meet. Right I might come back to you will recognize Senator Dismang we think vote for secretary dismissed thank you Mr chairman and. I mean I think we had a candid conversation I appreciate that actually so I mean I feel like everybody's being fairly for about what transpired so I'm mostly concerned just make sure that I understand there was what I thought to be hanging issue at the last meeting which was the license was expired eight years ago seven years ago and we didn't have record that that person had been notified you know then the argument that time was will we really can't object to reinstating them because we don't know if they were given proper notice whatever it may be I mean I I kind of share the same you know theory that Senator pay does which is if it says on your license that expires after a certain date that serves notice and I'm trying to make sure I understand. What we've changed what is going to lead to am I. I'm tired and I had an ex one second read probably as well as a used are normally do if I can't read well but so how how is that going to be remitted we are we under the situation now where that same belief is still held true that if we don't have record and it's just a simple exploration that a person can come a petition of the don't have all the issues that this particular African didn't read receive their lives again or we fixing that through these adjustments that you've made well hopefully we we're we're fixing it but what we're what we're also doing is we're putting it back to where it needs to be needs to be a decision that the board makes and not members of my staff make I think that would largely was the error here I think he had the had the proper protocol been followed in this matter been taken to the board we wouldn't be sitting because clearly they would have made a different decision well I mean I'm vision to as the a significant issue if it's true that if and if the license not destruction years but whoever expires and we don't have record of notice no matter how many low hello real long ago it occurred that they could just go back and simply receive a license I mean that was kind of the argument at the last meeting we're saying that that is no longer really a valid argument and we're gonna back up from that position I think the argument that was present that wasn't that was in there okay that that's all I have to be the case so that that that that in and of itself into your point I think is is being corrected not I've not held the you and in so if we could if you can see. Just so just say that for me just so I know some of committee on says. I mean a licensed they say we you tell them we expired back in two thousand fourteen and they say well you know I I never received notice you're gonna say it expired back in two thousand fourteen we're okay thank you absolutely you have your license you have the expiration date on your license that's when it expires. Sure Chesterfield. Thank you for allowing me to ask questions I'm not a member of the committee I'm sitting here trying to digest everything that I'm hearing. A about the matter referred about I did not realize. the scope of the work of auctioneers that would require them to have to be licensed. Could you speak to some of those duties that would require that license to be in place or is it just a law is the law I mean clip a clearly the reason that we require them that licenses because it is to protect the welfare of the public they operate in such a way we're the public could he could be taken advantage of members of the committee that are where are the power of these auctioneers and so we license them in order to make certain that the welfare of the public is being taken care and also the integrity of the industry the these they go through a great great deal to get these licenses to securities licenses to build their businesses and so the industry itself has a vested interest in making sure that the people who are out here conducting these activities proper properly licensed in. What is the people keep talking about the favor that was done. Could you speak to the favor that was done the first is it that the person was given a license even though the person hadn't done what he or she was supposed to do. How does that happen. No I think I think what they're referring to was that Chief it got a call from from the governor's office and and inquired about this now to this day I don't know exactly what all was in jail in that conversation you want to eliminate. As a senator when I received the call it was just asked if we could assist a licensee whose license had expired for the auctioneers so I'll pass that down to the Director into our chief legal counsel to see what could be done what what was missing when it was presented to me there was it was a very unique situation as us humans license had expired several years prior there was no notice that we could find now understanding this it all happened pre department labor licensing so the recordkeeping wasn't ideal before before they're put under our department so we had no record of any kind of notification of his license being revoked and I believe that was in the rules or the statute amount can remember which one saying that they must be notified lose you did know that the license was expired it was expired so that's what the favor was give him the license it was tried was it her it was treated as a renewal that's where we got to we got into a gray area an area we should not have gone into okay and I apologize for that I just wanted to know this is my first meeting all of my colleagues seem to be much more up on this and I am having not ever. Had to deal with an auctioneer I did not realize the scope. Of the work in its importance but I can certainly see that because people do not want to be taken advantage of. And so the favor when the favor comes from someone that we feel. Are responsible to. People are likely to respond positively to that suggestion is that what we're saying here today. But now that it's back in the hands of the board where it belongs that will no longer happen in my understanding that properly that's what you're that's what we're saying all right thank you thank you Mr. We're gonna go to committee member co chair the share representative ray and I go to Senator love them to go to representative right and that's what we have on the board at this time representive right. Okay thank you Mr chairman service that I just want to follow up on the questions Senator Chesterfield just asked about the purpose of the licensure being to protect public safety and ensure that people are taking advantage of when asked this but since you brought it up but I believe there's somewhere in the range of twenty to twenty three states that do not license auctioneers. It is your contention that Consumers in those states are unsafe because of that lack of licensure or what what should mean. But represent president on that not at all representative ray in fact it during the red ribbon committee that I participated in I I brought that very issue up well we we do this at the you know which is it your liver of it we we this is the lawful land here so we we do this caption you're just saying that that's the the policy preference of the policy in Arkansas that we need this in order for the public welfare to be to be protected gotcha okay thank you. Senate rule of. Thank you Mr The last meeting we were talking about you know The fact that the license is expired people continue to use the licenses even though they're expired so I want to I want to go more two kind of personnel and the fact it. do you all do not have people or of the inspectors to go out and and kind of make sure that people are not I mean like once a license expires the in. What happens because I mean. I do understand questions the. In three quarters of the divisions within the L. L. this generally is a problem because we have full time inspectors and actually go out and inspect licensee. Auctioneers different animal in that they only have one employee and that is the term of the direct okay and also geology is that saying in that same situation home inspectors being also those three entities don't have inspect so we rely mainly on the public. And other industry members to okay tell us will I know this guy's doing this or ladies doing this you need to look into what they're doing and so we look for that in this particular instance an auctioneer's instance of no one state. and so that's kinda where we are. So have you all thought about about bringing on inspected to ensure that we will their budgets won't permit it you know you said the budget won't privileges are permitted they're not they're not in that great of financial shape and in in in the case of for example athletics which is the fourth fourth entity that we have this issue with they have no of. Revenue and so the rest of the entities are subsidizing them that's kind of the position we're in with auctioneers okay all right thank you. The higher. A. Secretary Mr secretary how many how many auctioneers or other. You know right off for four hundred and twenty. Yeah given what they're fund balances. No I'm not prepared for that okay sh representative right and if you're Senator Dismang. Thank you thank you Mr chairman they're always looking at this it looks looks very good the exception for emergency situations but I didn't see anything in there that actually was addressing the situation of the years that might pass like those eight years with this particular person what would you do would they would they have to pay all back dues or something like that no Sir not the board did not address that particular issue they just simply address the nine issues nine allegations of that were brought forth here and so that those years are gone. Thank you thank you thank you Mr chairman Senator Dismang is on the same lines actually in at the end is kind of four think about where we are going to send the you know positions we take in maybe walk back from I mean what would require state laws or something it can be done through rule that a number one that you got to publish the expiration date on a license as we publish on license which may be already required in the number two that that you know that that date being on the license services proper notice that pulls the loophole yes center can you all do that by a rule or order or is that something that's going to take a law change at I think you probably have the lead to do that that's that we're planning to do that by rule okay yes then that that is not good. Once I want to clear up because boards clear one thing I want to clear up was something was made a comment was made while ago maybe I just miss heard it are you now going to begin to in addition notify people that their license is expired or the official position moving forward now is you got a card it's got the expiration date on it just like a driver's license that is sufficient I thought I heard you say or somebody got the impression that you're going to notify people that their licenses are I will be absolutely clear here there will be no notice the notice that they will get what is the notification on their license that is the expiration date we will not be notifying people when their licenses expire right so they should be they should be responsible enough just like your driver's licenses says expiration date this this is it and that's going to be across the board for all from everybody under your umbrella all twenty two divisions okay all right I do have one more and representative Cozart. Thank you Mr chairman I will tell you that I do get a notice from the contractor licensing board at my license is up for renewal and it's up every year and so I know what is going to be up for what they do send out a notification that is going to be and let me know what I need to send in to them so I do like that I'm a busy person I don't have time to sit and look and see exactly where my losses comes up even though I kind of know when it is I've I personally would rather see that you send out those notifications to everyone because our state plainly lot of people are stupid they don't pay attention to what they're doing and we need to sometimes remind sorry for the word but I mean it it it's a lot of people so thank you Mr. Thank you Sir a response on giver but ago. All right Senator Payton. Thank you Mr changes real quick of in regard to this notice I mean auctioneers licensing board has also sent out a form and you fill it out and used submit your content proof of continuing education. And you know that's a foreman notice in my opinion but it's not registered mail or or you know it's not totally beyond the realm of of you're not getting it because the mail delivered or something I'll look it notice. The that Mr Parker was read was talking about at the last meeting as being something. Your registered mail or proof of notice or something like that because I mean routinely for all the. Thirty forty years I've been auctioneer I routinely every year we get a form that we fill out and put our documentation with it and send it back in for renewal. But you know I don't think it's incumbent on the state to go to the extremes of serving notice in a way that you can prove that you served notice. So I I just you know what we won't be doing that senator we're in the in the case of courtesy notification such as what Mister Cozart is referring to that's perfectly fine right I just don't want to have the legal requirement that my department have to furnish notice exactly because that would require registered may I was keeping provided apps thank you thank you Mr the. Does it does if you were to notify everybody that the license is about to expire would that come out of their fund balance for each respective one you. Okay so if you've got take for example the the one you mentioned while ago the chin financial. A deficiency or in this case shall share which I know you don't know what the balances right now for going to do that then we have to be prepared to have that money taken out of their individual one to cover the cost of that wrecked absolutely and that subsequently could result in possibility of raising the fees in order to be able to cover the cost of that is correct I don't know any other way but to raise fees if we have to deplete those funds were going to have to replace them somehow are represent Springer them will cut it off because when I move on to the next subject so represent Springer. Okay thank you thank you Mister chair I just want to make a comment after a meeting last month I did contact a friend who's like Senator a female and she indicated that she did receive the notices for renewal so I just want you all to be aware of it thank you thank you and I think when you bring real change will have that subject discussion at that point about that all right reports clear what I want to do is lead you to sitting here going to recognize skews me low county judge Doug one if you would come on up here to front the I want to put you under oath because you are going to testify on this matter we put everybody else on this matter under oath and open up to Mike for you share what you want to come share okay. And if you would a judge please state your name your poor your in the your position please that are on loan county judge does what would you judge would you hit that button there thank you Sir. Thank you I'm Duggar one of the local council judgment judge for the past thirteen years. And president. President County judges sociais Haitian okay as well as holding auctioneers last if you would please raise right handed you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony about to get to be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes Sir and thank you Sir go ahead I'm just going to open up to Mike for you to sure would you want to share with the committee. Well first of all I want to thank the committee Mr chairman and committee here today as well as Mister Payton I've been an auctioneer for the last thirty years maintain my license been current every year done the continuing education every year. And which require sixty hours of the continuing education once you've been a once you reach fifty five. Years old and you've had a license for ten years prior to being fifty five. The education part of it drops off is not a requirement to renew your license. And senator Payton it It by a state something that I would welcome you to correct me on that I so I'm kind of talking out of here. But in like I said for thirty years I've been current. At a current license in January. I received and I keep my license current for the past thirteen years that I've been county judge I haven't conducted any auctions I just felt like I didn't want somebody motion be matted county judge so why not thank you all in all respect that. but I do keep my license current and when I get to service serving his term a you know I want to maintain that license to be able to continue with that. On this later letter that I'm going to read to you it is dated my license number is fourteen fifteen. And I like I said I've been license for the past thirty years. On January the set seventeen of two thousand twenty three. I received the letter that my license had been revoked. Now to me the the word revoke is different than suspension. It's very serious. And I also think and reason why I'm here today is also think that done you don't want that is a politician to be on your resume. because it will certainly be used against you. But It said that my license had been revoked. And. I didn't receive any notice that it it had been revoked and it was for non renewal. And the. So. For the past I don't know how many years least twelve or fifteen years I just give my. money to the Secretary now we have to associations or actually we have a licensing board which is the auctioneers licensing board. Totally separate from the auctioneer sociais Haitian the auctioneer association also requires a hundred dollar a renewal fee and it provides the continuing education and like I said for the past thirty years I've want to that every time for one reason that reciprocates with a real estate license which I've had for forty years or almost forty years. But Want to receive this notice I went to the ER I first call to the auctioneer because I panicked. When I read this here it says revoked license in big black blow letter I panicked so calm down to the office and I. Asked to speak to someone about this regarding this matter and Mr Kelly black was not in office. And they told me that the she was she was ill and so I respect that. And so I waited a couple days in that that particular team time I'm coming down here today the cap bearing on on behalf of the county judges association as their president. So I waited a couple days and I come by the office over there one one go by the office the young lady will miss black. Was tied up in a meeting and can speak with me so when able to address this. So finally. I come back the next day and she come to the front counter and told me well you just have to start over. How did not receive any notice of being delinquent non renewal. And I will. On the fat it was an oversight on my part. But I didn't receive a renewal notice and so this past Monday. And the association I mean skews me they licensing board for the auctioneers association only meets four times a year. So they just had a meeting one I'm addressing this with her and I had to wait till till July the nineteenth is when they call this special meeting on a totally separate matter now please don't get me confused with this other thing at one now. so I can go in and attended a meeting center for two hours listing and I told chairman I said I'd like to address the board and in this matter. And because miss black was just totally. Give no consideration whatsoever and like I said I didn't receive an one aware of. They said that my license had been revoked. So. I ask you he said well let me let me talk to the board and well handling I civil just come down here suspend the rules. And the let me let me speak with the. You know. So. That didn't happen Miss black again. Seem to have more authority than he did. And so I'm here today. trying to get my license reinstated. And. The Code is up seventeen seventeen three eleven that says you'll just pay a fine. Of two hundred dollars to be a reinstate your license. Mine was You know I received this letter on January the two thousand twenty three. And never been delinquent for the previous thirty years. So I didn't know where else to turn. And I wanted dresses matter because it seems real simple to me that the for rule allows you to pay for being late and I should have been able to pay that lady. two hundred dollars and a hundred dollars a renewal fee. And retain my license. I take this very very serious because the work room rove revocation. On this letter that I received and I and I apologize that. I should email you a copy of it. But That's that's very concerning to me. So. I'm here today because I didn't know where else to turn to. I'm a recognize Senator pain but let me ask you if the phrase has lapsed instead or revoked with that. And and terminology can be worked out by the powers that be but would that has maybe presented the message in a little better terminology thinkers of matter. Well I certainly I feel like that that would matter because. somebody that doesn't know you. Doesn't know the circumstances. I thank everybody sitting in this room today that is on this side of the fence. can respect that because you certainly don't want that on your resume because they're not going to stay there you know one one it's listed as revoked. They're not going to explain the circumstances. Okay survey. Thank you Mr chair itself for less than a year at this point. It has been expired and cents January February you've been trying to get communications established with miss black and unable to do that absolutely I went immediately I mean I panicked when I got this letter in the mail I mean and then having gone to the board meeting of. Where the board members receptive to hearing your cause in this black shut it down or what. I don't know they had a kitten say specifically that but It was my understanding from the chairman Mr Fowler. Then she said that they can do that that I would have startup. So okay well I appreciate you have a presence of your situation I think it does go kart hand in glove with what we were talking about as far as miss blacks conduct I've had other auctioneers tell me that she was not very of cooperative or didn't give good assistance but I'll check into whether or not the law has a provision for the reinstatement I would thank me in less than a year it would be the fine and and reinstate the license but I have to double check that it's been twenty years since I was on the board. Well I didn't bring the law but it does make a provision that you'll pay a two hundred dollar fine which was fine you know that this. not a problem and you are willing to fill out an absolutely thank you absolutes you Mr. I think. Consideration thank you sure okay catch me up. misty your Lysons was due for renewal when. Can you Mr. It was due by December thirty first okay in in you got the letter in January the letter is dated January the seventeenth two thousand twenty three you contacted auctioneer licensing board in January immediately. Secretary. Can you comment on this. I mean we are going from one extreme. From eight years seven or eight years from one to another one. Can would you. Confirm what he said in the law or the the rules it says a person who is late. Can pay a penalty. And their license. Seventeen seventeen through eleven three eleven does state that does but I'm I'm I'm really taking quite taken aback this this this. I'm I'm a statement last time I had somebody questioned me on and I had to find but. Where is common sense in this the the it allows. Who does the Director of the auctioneer licensing board work far. That was asking the last committee in the director did not seem to know what had to ask. Who does the Director work for. The period. Obviously with transformation she comes under my heading but she works for the board. We say that you we're we're talking about two different things right there right now. Why do we even have a board why don't they just come as a security or or your those under you again this goes legislative selector we approved transformation with questions and this is what the questions were get this man needs to be reinstated right now there's not a question if you if there's a director under your supervision that putting I don't care for you. County judge or Joe blow common citizen. You need to correct this right now I agree sent please thank you. Representative wouldn't. Thank you Mr chairman. Thank you Senator have you got right to the point. You see will you see what I'm talking about when you inject yourself. Your staff. Into this fiasco. But here's here's a classic example. We're sure German made his mistake you didn't call the governor's office. Steve didn't get a phone call. And he's up here today pleading his case for a simple fact. I like representative Cozart part of that I have to contractor's license with the contractors licensing board and they sent me a notice. But my licensure do ones due in April was due in December. And they sent me a notice and they also have been there if you don't play by the the days of the expiration. You can renew with another I think it's I believe it's a hundred dollars. But you see what we're creating another layer of bureaucracy. And this black. Hello saying more about her but she she needs to be dealt with. Because she is not she has insulted. According to the information of receipt and I don't like doing this is Michael management but I'm telling you you got a problem there. And it has not been dealt with at least that I'm aware of. But again the only mistake. If I'm correct Steve you enter me. You didn't get a phone call from judge or when. Or you didn't get a phone call from the governor's office about his situation did you. No Sir but you do get one from the governor's office school regarding Mr McGee. That's correct immediately you notify the miss black. That's correct and then the license was issued weather was fifteen minute for two days later he didn't jump through one of the. His lesson and he knew. According to misplaced as to mony. The New two years earlier that his license is been expired since twenty fifteen right. I believe so. Secretary bested I want to ask you a question when did you know about this situation did you know about that when you got back to town was that the first you heard when I got back into town when you got back to town yes. Steve you told us that he was aware of it. Because I ask you that specific question is the Secretary aware of this and you told me yes he just stated that he moves where or when I got back to tail representative answered you that he was aware of it but it was after the licenses already issued that a meeting where. Hi this question is he aware of the situation before you came up here to this and you said that he was he just stated that he got aware of it when he came back representive I I don't mean to argue with you but I remember the question because I I wanted to specifically state that the secretary was not part of the process I believe there's the other words he didn't know about the end result of what happened here in the hearing until. After he got back into. You view the video. Are you I'll be here no he was he was made aware I'm talking about after when the license was issued but not not Jake you're not the first time graduate okay but the license he was made aware after the licenses thank you thank you Mr chairman because of that to the welcome center Dotson. Thank you Mr chair over here to your left Secretary percent discount or are you familiar with Arkansas code annotated seventeen one one oh seven regarding the reinstatement licenses. Read the entire seventeen you have to quote I can't hold it for her act well. Under a it says an occupational licensing entity shall by rule adopt reduced requirements for reinstatement of license registration permit or certification for a person who and then it has various qualifications under their but yes the the the question I'm getting at is have you have the opportunity I know over the last few weeks or however long this is been going on that you're if you're familiar with this to review your rules regarding reinstatement of licensure and kind of see where those things are at because the law states very clearly that any. Licensee or or previous licensee that's ever household in Arkansas license shall have reduced requirements they they don't have to start the process all over again they they they can go back and I mean that was the purpose and intent of the law that was passed. We was a twenty fifteen session of a been the twenty seventeen session I've slept since then but that was the purpose and intent was someone who had previously been in good standing they didn't have to start all over again and that they can get their license reinstated even if it had been dormant or expired or whatever by demonstrating that they you know the the rule could state they have to pass have to pass a competency test or make sure that they're meeting all the requirements for holding license currently but they didn't have to start all over at the very beginning are you kind of familiar with where we're at today Sir section seventeen and of course that's why I just apologized to judge or with that he should have been allowed to do that and that was that advice that was given to him was was given to him in there and I don't know any other way to say it other than that if you would just kind of go back and look at your your current rules in in light of that intent of the the statute So that hopefully in the future the rules reflect the intent so that the. Hopefully we of with this type of situation future blue well the rules are explicit in that the in that instance Sir it in this case it was just a miss application of the rule does need to be changed it's there it was just a. Matt vice president that thank you. Our members were read this portion of it up but I won't do it with the. Judge one issue question you just get my mind right you went to the you went to the meeting it was not related to the issue that the meeting was called for but you went to the meeting for what purpose. Are you talking about the the auctioneers meeting that they had on Monday yes I went there to address them about my situation I have nothing to do with this address legislation was where were you given the opportunity to speak no Sir and why we don't have a will I requested that I said I I told the chairman is that all you have to do is to suspend the rules because I had called M. one to be on the agenda when I got there was not on the agenda and I took off Monday the ghost try to address it specifically and so when I get there and he tells me well you're not on the agenda let me try to handle is. And so when they had a break after listing about a higher like you all done here today about this other situation. We had a break and I said let's just suspend the rules when this meetings with a route for your journey and let me speak to the board. And. The rule that I told you about allows you that opportunity. And it was a provided to me. And. I'm not here to raise came with anybody I just want my license back and I mean that. Get you know and and after today Director secretary he will have him back what what through the proper channels that allow you get you get to pay the penalty you know. Are very good. Hi Senator paid you star this mode you finish it. Thank you at all all I ask is that he fill out a application provide this proof of continuing education and pay the late renewal fee that's that's with Arkansas containers licensing law requires that's what was not done in the other instance and I'm more than certain that colonel Irvin is willing to do that thank you thank you Mr. Okay and members on straight out one thing because of just to show people do watch these meetings I got a message well going to stand corrected on something the Actually. Notices for driver's license renewals. Are sent out I guess I just renew my before I have to get one is what that amounted to so just wanna stand corrected on that all right then on this matter nobody else on board ask questions will take what's been given today as far as I'm concerned this won't be back up from the Committee less something new comes as a result of testimony being given here general with that thank you all for being here today. Right next we're gonna move on to item D. which is the discussion of Baxter County election audit would like to invite Canda Reese Baxter county Clerk and county circuit Clerk Karen Davis justice of the peace had a unexpected situation occur that he is not able to be here and we have sharing caster the state chairwoman Baxter County Republican committee here. Okay and then we will have a Catherine grace shall call you up in a minute but I do want to acknowledge it Catherine grace to citizens here I've got one person who signed up to speak on this matter and then Daniel Schultz was gonna wrap up to me today because reason Daniels here is to give a report on the audits that he and his Arkansas state board election commissioners have been out doing into various counties and want to wrap up to me with him given that report okay and Kathy Kathleen grace will come up okay got it okay all right so let's start with this miss Reese recently y'all had a election involving the school board and a millage I believe it is I'm not going to swear you in because you're here give report I'm not going to swear you in for this because this is informative as to the results but also to give information as far as the audit that you voluntarily call for animal stop right there I'm open up to Mike and let you just talk about the volunteer audit that you did it as a result of that election and just open the micro for you to share about that experience laid the groundwork and I'll recognize you at this time if you would please state your name and title for the record please if you push that button at the bottom that Michael go read and that's a hot Mike now and if you would please name and title for a record thank you Sir my name is camera re signed the county and circuit Clerk for Baxter County and thank you Mr chairman and and members of this committee for giving me the opportunity to come and speak with you today I have been the Clerk in Mexico only for ten and a half years now I'm very passionate about what I do including being passionate about elections and just as a little bit of ground work to help you understand why we made the decision to do an audit of the school election and a couple of you. Years ago I was at a Republican women's committee meeting in Baxter County and at some of the ways in the meeting informs me that there was information that what's being reported that votes were slipped in the twenty twenty election and that that that occurred in every county in the state in in the country and so of course when I hear that but those are being flipped in my county at a little bit of panic set in and and I literally ran from that meeting back to my office to look at what where the the vote totals that we reported and in the twenty twenty election on election night or when the results were certified and what where the totals that the secretary of state's office showed that we reported because if there were votes that it had been flipped there should have been a discrepancy in that so I checked that those at totals matched which I expected that they would and so knowing that not one single person had ever time and and counted our balance from the twenty twenty election I'm I was very perplexed as to how could votes have been flipped and how would someone have that information when we have the ballots no one had coming counted them we tabulated them we reported them the results where where showing as we had reported in. But that's concern from some of the constituents in my county caused me I really to that do a lot of research into the issue hi and am committed to fair and honest elections for all of my constituents in Baxter County and I'm committed to making sure that everything in our power is being done not only to ensure that we're having fair and honest in elections but that that people are comfortable and confident in that process all of the people in Baxter County who I'm there to result are to represent and so I know that there there are a lot of different opinions as to whether the current system that we have in place is is effective and and accurate and there are there those who who believe that it is in there those who believe that it is and and I'm hearing and listening to both sides of that and I'm here to represent and and and work so that all of those people can be confident in our elections so that brought me to looking to what can we do to help people understand that we're committed to ensuring that our elections are accurate and that we that we are hearing people's concerns and that we want to be proactive in that so the decision was made between myself and our election commissioners to to audit this may school election all of our school districts in Baxter County hello hold their annual school elections in may every year and we have three districts that are domiciled in our county and then we have three districts that are domiciled in other counties that have part of their territory in our county and so I'm not sure if you all were given this little chart but I I gave you that because I think that it will help you understand that this election was in it it's not a complex a. Election so we we it gave us the opportunity to do a trial run on an audit where I felt like it would be manageable we could do a hundred percent audit count all of the ballots for this election and that the reality is that this way as at the most a two race elections on each ballot so for each of those school districts there were some of them that only had the millage question they didn't even have any candidate races there wire. I'm a couple of districts that had a candidate race and a millage question with only two candidates and no change in their village and then our biggest school district which is Mountain Home had a three way opposed candidate race and a millage increase proposed on the ballot so it gave us a good cross section of a balance to check every voter in Baxter County was eligible to vote in this election it wasn't like a studio election where you've only got just a few so we had and for the for this particular election we we only had eight different ballot styles that represented those six school districts one school district has owns and so they had an additional ballot styles three of their zones had no candidate that were up for election so they only have the millage question two of their zones had candidates that were up for election that were not opposed and so that created three ballot styles for that district one ballot saw for each of the other five districts okay the right following me so far. So and. We were. Advertised the audit by putting it in the media we advertise in the local newspaper we announced at the quorum court meeting we it was announced to that local Republican committee the local democratic committee there where people who who are passionate about the issues who were spreading and sharing the information so the word was out that we were going to do the audit and we ask for volunteers to participate in the audit we did not specifically recruit any specific individuals but we ask people who are concerned about the issues to come and assist with the count so that they could see what the process is be involved first hand in in that audit and so having just went through the school election or this being plans while the school election was going on there were some poll workers who volunteered to help us with the audit who came back to do that at some of our J. peas I would say about half of our justices of the peace showed up to help with the audit there were also some other community members who volunteered to come and so we ended up and we had approximately twenty one people who came to help count ballots and that was just the counters in addition to that we have the three election commissioners and myself and one of my deputy clerks who were there overseeing the process we expected because there has been a lot of discussion a lot of concerned about the integrity of elections we expected that there would be. M. L. a large group of people who would come to observe the process because they have been very passionate about concerns about voting equipment and things like that so we were prepared we were set up we had a had a viewing area set up we had four tables that were set up in the room with with groups as counters people counting ballots and the way that we handled with that way as for. Each vote Senator which we have thirteen vote centers and Baxter County eleven of them were in use for the school election. and so we had bags of ballots from each of those eleven vote centers class we had a large amount of ballots for early voting which was the largest percentage of our turnout was during early voting so the four groups have as counters which come up they would they were each given a bag of ballots to act to take to their table and count they were given some instruction about the process as to how to do that but mostly we wanted them take count them in the way that works for them we can tell them you've got to do it this certain way but in reality they count in a way that works for them which was fine and then so that would count their bag of ballots from a from a particular vote Senator they would bring up their totals to one of us and we would compare that against the results that were printed on the tapes from the election night reporting. In each circumstance M. there had to be some recounts there was only one table one group of voters who at no point in there did they have to go back and recount their staff to be able to balance back to the tapes all the rest of the tables it was a process and I would have they've come up the totals wouldn't match that go back to their table that counts again and they were able to come up with totals that matched on the tapes the biggest problem was when we got into counting early voting ballots there were I'm about to ballot boxes full at the paper ballots that were in that in that boxes from early voting so approximately four thousand forty five hundred early voting ballots. And so all of the rest of the poll The vote centers were done and since we started on early the early vote ballots at just after lunch and what we did we had all of the tables working on the early vote count so they would come up they would get a batch of ballots they'd go back to their table they would tabulate count those my note there totals come back and get another batch of ballots so everybody was working on the same batch of ballots and then once all of the ballots were counted they added their totals together and then we would compare those to the tapes that one. I will tell you didn't didn't end very well by that point in the day we finished counting at almost five o'clock in the afternoon we started this process at nine in the afternoon by that point that counters were all frustrated and they were exhausted and they were they were very frustrated and so and the numbers were significantly office and from the hand count in fact on one at the Mountain Home and school board race had three candidates for that race one of those was at thirty eight votes difference and the count from what was reported on the tapes one was at one vote difference and then the third one well as a seven vote difference so those are those are significant when you're in a small town that could consider potentially impact an election so what it what it showed us was that that can't was not accurate we were confident that the inaccuracy was in the hands count because all the rest of them they were able to balance them back to the tapes so long story short because it was a voluntary audit at that point I have laid everybody up and I said okay we have a couple of options here we can go back and we can continue to count until we get it right because we know we're com we're confident that that is correct. Or we can learn from this exercise and experience because we had demonstrated an accomplished what we set out to accomplish and you know D. I want to go home or do you want to continue to count until you verify that this last vote group is is accurate I am the majority of the people in the room at were more than ready to go home they wanted to go home but it was a good healthy discussion in terms of M.. Recognizing how difficult it is to hand count ballots when you've got a team of four or five people and and. They don't even come up with the same numbers on a small group of ballots so being able to do that do that accurately and again as a reminder the whole reason I gave you this piece of paper is to to to remind you this wasn't to issue ballot so when we have and and and only a ballot styles so when we have a primary election and we're looking at potentially fifteen to twenty or more candidates. And we in Baxter County have forty three election precincts fifty nine not fifty nine fifty three ballot styles for a primary election. And then you multiply that by three and a primary election when you have Republican ballots nonpartisan ballots and democratic ballots that that the likelihood of being able to get accurate hand count and results is just almost impossible in my opinion so this was a healthy exercise to help us recognize that the difficulty in that I didn't expect the levels of frustration that I saw from the from the people who were counting some of them. just one gentleman in particular he would get up from the table and he kind of stopped around the room just a little bit and he come back and sit down and start counting again and it's it's very difficult to to concentrate and to sort and and to make sure that your county accurately all of those things but ultimately it took us seven hours and it we we spent two thousand and seventy five dollars and to pay the workers minimum wage to be there for that day and that didn't count the cost of my time my deputy Clerk or the three election commissioners I that was just the cost involved with the three with the people who are counting so. Some of our and workers who participated in that camp. Where are regular poll workers again the frustration ways to a level that some of them made comments that if we had to do this I'm not sure I'd keep working the polls well I don't know about y'all I work at elections regularly and I know that finding poll workers is a difficult thing to do to begin with finding great poll workers is even harder instead of two to. Jeopardize losing poll workers because of restoration that that's very concerning to me but I that was just a comment that was made and and again after seven hours and and two thousand and seventy five dollars we still couldn't come up with an accurate hand account to be able to balance back to the tapes on just the early vote totals we were able to on all of the rest of them so my opinion and and this is my humble opinion as a Clerk is it has it has been from from the time that I was made aware that there's a problem or that there are concerns and I have I have been adamant about reminding people we have paper ballots we have paper ballots that people get to look at they can read and make sure that those paper ballots demonstrate the selections that they made in their voting for their election so and. One approach that we have taken in Baxter County is to remind voters when they're there to vote did you check your ballot have you reviewed it have you made sure that it says exactly what you wanted to say part of me it's kind of like that licensing renewal saying there comes a point that we have to take personal responsibility but I have no issue with reminding people and I want to remind people because again I want them to be confident I had one one voter who said well when you're saying that to me it causes me to question is my ballot saying what it should and that's not my point at all I want you to be confident that your ballot says what you wanted it to say and so we encourage people to review their ballots but also I am firmly of the opinion that we need to the audit every election I have no issue with doing that not a full blown count every ballot audit of the election but rather a sampling audit for example if we audited to twenty percent of our DS two hundreds are tabulators and hand counted the ballots in those machines and only hand counted a sampling of the races for example if you hand counted three randomly chosen races off of the ballots in three randomly chosen DS to hundreds or fifteen percent of them or whatever that number is and if you can match those then you can be pretty confident that the rest of them are going to match as well if that's to and in a randomly selected machines and races and then if that. Sampling audit demonstrates that there's a problem then do a full blown out it can't do a hundred percent count I I don't have an issue with that I think that is our responsibility because we want to know that it's accurate we want our constituents to know that it's accurate and we want them to be confident in that so mysteries yes. I'm going to interrupt you were we're trying to be insensitive on time certainly and we need to bring up missed grace to speak but I want to do you mind taking a question absolutely open for questions Senator rush well thank you Mr I appreciate you being here today and it is listed as a course that you were elected represent all people that. That and I appreciate it thank you for for certain we we. Legislators get Hammer both sides to. But in you know in the country the things were saying I think you understand where it's coming from but not necessarily that at we've got a problem did mean we can't have a problem but what you're asking for is for that sampling is the same thing that all it does for the legislature absolutely bangs I'll make sense now and and this is you you made sense for some things Amazo appreciate you coming back thank you senator. Some. Refinance if you would just kind of hold for second and I want to ask Mr grace to come up at this time if she would please. And we're let her share her portion of the testimony and then then and we will wrap it up and so you can be thinking about your final thought certainly. And miss grace thank you for being here today and if you would Thing on yes just push that but right from the administration of can you hear so okay yes thank the lord I can't okay I want to I want to thank our staff for comedy miss grace to make sure I got it under you need an and you can hear us okay we can hear you okay all right I'll go ahead I'm open up to my creative share which is like if you would please state your name and if you are here representing a group or if you're representing yourself as an individual please all right my name is Katherine grace I'm eighty three years old. And I've been a registered voter in Baxter county for fifty three years. A. I thought that you were going to be just asking me questions but when I got here they said I was to make a statement so I brought it out and before I address any of the things about what Candace did and. Can you can eleven years ago. We Republicans talk candor into running for the clerk's office because I knew how she wanted everything to be absolutely perfect and that's why I campaigned all over mallard point for her. This thing. Let's do this okay so I will route this so I don't get lost you know how old ladies get kind of off on the trails so I'll just say okay. We moved to Mountain Home where where I pulled Cranfield marina for forty years and I'm supposed to have been retired fourteen years now. Twenty twenty one and at sea. I didn't realize that I would be making a statement but being questioned by the committee about the back of Baxter County thought it. I believe that testimony before a Senate hearing by computer computer programmer Clint Curtis who confessed to being the programmer that altered the algorithm of dominion voting machines from fifty fifty two fifty one forty nine. He is a Democrat and Biden supporter. He told several other countries that every machine can be hacked and they should be thrown into the ocean. And several other senators senator Kamala Harris at that time and Lisa Makowski and there were seven or eight more of them. That said we have to get rid of the machines because they thought that president trump stole the election from the. Okay. Twenty twenty I became the first time a poll worker where every. Where every thirty minutes I sanitized from the front door handles all seat bathrooms and all signs ends in the voting stations and all twenty voting machines I would make sure that every legal I sanitized them all every thirty minutes. Just to make sure that they would feel safe to come and vote their choice. In and not be afraid to do so because of the covid job going on I work sixteen hour days. A. All right Jeff. C.. Yes he told us that and I get that okay we're good. Jeff o'donnell one of the leading computer experts in the in America has researched the potential fraud evidence of the machines he is willing to sign a privacy statement. If he can get be given access to the to the code a to the voting machines. No one has been allowed to examine the inside of any machine. If I was the dominion or SNS voting machine company and there was a question about the integrity of my machines I would want to allow access to my machines to either prove or disprove all the L. A. Ellie allegations. I appeared before the quorum court investor County to ask the court to form a committee to study the Osage county Missouri ballot counting audit manual to set up auditing procedures in line with Arkansas law. I brought thirteen CD copies to the two of Act manual that I stated I would love to donate to any committee they formed. What no one was willing to even look at that CD to see if we could improve the counting and auditing procedure for Baxter County. I am a certified poll worker since twenty twenty the newly elected at Baxter County commissioner asked me to work the audit. To be a certified poll worker I have to pass twenty question test to be qualified as a poll worker and attended a training session conducted by our client county clerk's office. So they recounted and there was eleven. With all four County and the same time it would eliminate human error and do it in half of the time. A quorum court vote vote vote Hammer was allowed five minutes after I was he told the court that it was seven hours to do the audit of six thousand seven hundred ballots with eight three percent margin of error. Bob stated that it costs the county over two thousand dollars to perform at all it. I didn't mention the ten thousand dollars I had spent to help the candidates of the last five elections that I wanted to elect but lost because of potential machine that epilation. What do they have to hide if they won't let experts access their machines to verify or exonerate the from the fraudulent charges. In the Baxter bulletin article of my request for a committee they stated that there was a smattering of applause later. A smattering of applause later in the article they mention that signatures were being collected. At that time. Mr grace. Do you know about how much longer your testimony is here at well. That's about it but. What what I was concerned about I was an adviser. A an onlooker. At the tables. Well I I said I was sitting at the commissioners desk and the first table was with Sharon and Purcell into other ways. And they were they they didn't know what to do they couldn't agree on how they should count ballots they couldn't agree on on what procedure to use. Well. Ten years before I worked at Cranfield marina. I was at a on a conveyor belt at Western Electric where every single motion is telling and you that set your quota. There was there was so much time spent on. Sorting out the balance they had to be turned right side up and upside down and that took so much time and none of the four of us knew exactly what to do and and it took an enormous amount of time. Well by the time we got to the last two stacks. I. I had I had asked bobbled Hammer if I could see to learn how to do the audit is sure you can call up there is that you can't say a word. Well I didn't say a word but I when they got the staff about this high of ballots I says what you need to do is take sort of all out to each county and everything and I know that any the printing machine companies that we have S. as the votes came in they could be sorted and matched out so that they you wouldn't have to go through sorting and placing them in stacks and Bob told aces Gillam intends stacks at a time Janet ten in a stack at a time so that if there is an error you can just do it until you find the error don't have to do I'm all over again. Well people were not agreeable date they can't know a training manual they had no training whatsoever. And it but you can't I thank I told him at the end of ISIS. If you would take. A stack of ballots. And have one person County. And then the other three. Tabulating and then at each ten stacks mark their amount and they would all agree with for people watching it would eliminate almost all mistakes well when they were doing and the other two at the end of the table didn't want to do it that way. So then they would switch tax encounter mall again. And that that is twice the amount of time. So with this Osage county Missouri of. Manual that we that that I had taken their of I had a friend makes CD copies of it so that we could adjust are counting ability so people would know what they were doing they were so frustrated they didn't know what to do. I. All right any questions. Would like to do a more recognized represent within but Daniel I want you to come up to the table if you will because we're going to add you into the discussion and then we'll take questions represent would. I have a question for both of the ladies the first one miss grace over here on this side right here right yes ma'am. I can't hear you are you okay great are you are you here speaking for the. Red ballots the. Posed to the machines. Our what is that is that a fair experts okay tell me that that's the clean Curtis said that's the only thing we can do is throw the machines in the ocean okay Mr mysteries to could you could you tell me. Do you think the thirty eight you have one where you felt what you were all thirty eight vote thirty percent against the tabulation on the machine or against another number we're we're did you come up with the we're was the shortfall or do you. That was the hand count compared to at Tate from the machine okay so. The machine said one male in the hand Cale was thirty eight if you were is that correct is that thirty eight zero thirty eight more. Work in charge and you'll do them mobile job all study. What do you favor the machine or do you favor the hand Cale or do you or do you is your solution to the situation that we may be confronted with and the machines is your solution the sampling of twenty percent of all Kelly's I think that would encourage voter confidence it will encourage coke so so but you favor the use of a machine verses and about that I do yes Sir okay. Miss one thing I think about the extra county election is that's why I became a poll worker so that I could see for myself. How accurate they were and how much work they put into making sure everything was correct. But when you get what is a national election. And you put your honest ballot count in and your in with all these other states where where they're fraud is proven forensic evidence proves that the room they were fraudulent and when Clint Curtis in front of the Senate hearing committee he admitted to changing the algorithm from fifty fifty to fifty one forty nine. Well I know it was a Colorado and I don't remember what the other state was. But when they came up with their account. The two states were identical absolutely identical in algorithms. Four of. Fifty one forty nine. Now if that many things that's an impossibility to be. It to be that identical. But when you click curvas said that he he he hacked the machine the vote a dominion voting machine in front of the Senate hearing committee. And that's where he he sh he said he's the one that did it he didn't do it for fraud he was doing it so that he could check on the Republicans to make sure they weren't cheating. All right read as you guys senator question thank you Mr chairman of the shoe this Daniel you just use completed the. There you go thank you have can you talk about the audit report results that you guys chairman County stunner gives the update would you date of salt State Board of Election Commission director yes we have completed as of last week actually that did the final County this is you may recall in the legislature granted SPC authority and twenty well that the act was passed in twenty eighteen begin the twenty twenty general election we did a five county pilot program about ten thousand ballots and the board expanded that to eight fifteen County program of about forty five thousand five hundred ballots the methodology is that the counties were randomly selected after the election that would be subject to it and then the it similar to what Baxter County did my staff and myself everyone participated went to these counties and and randomly selected both batches of ballots had been tabulated within the county at least ten percent some of the smaller counties we have pretty high and also randomly selected at least or one statewide county wide race in the county and then we proceeded to hand count the ballots and confirm that the hand count accurately reflected the machine count out of the fifteen counties and forty five thousand ballots we were only found one single instance were the machine counted one fewer ballot then was there it's impossible know for certain we suspect that balance probably never fit to the machine and that was a human error it was a machine area B. one error in forty five thousand five hundred ballots the and in that particular county we counted that once we discover that one issue we counted every single ballot in the county and that was the only out it was about ten thousand ballots that was the only one we found. Senator Payton. Thank you Mr and Daniel when you say hand counted you're talking about the paper ballot physically read the name not the barcode orders are saying and only have one instance statewide and all that audit process of our machines being an actor is that correct the Indian can't be certain whether was machine or humans but there was it was one ballot that wasn't reflected on the report we just had one fewer total ballots that should be how the unlikely that. paper ballot process could be that accurate but I would agree with exclusion can you speak to how the Arkansas machines and process may differ from these other states that have so many accusations of fraud I I I'm not sure I can speak to the other states but I can simply say that the system we have is where you have a marking device which allows the hi eliminates human error in calling up the correct ballot in Arkansas we have a very complex political geography that created many virgins of the ballot but then you make your selection on the screen and it prints a paper ballot the whole that ballot you you should aye aye. Our priest suggested you should verify that it reflects your choices correctly if it's wrong you can redo it till you get it right and then you cast that ballot and we are reading the English characters this very same thing that the voter reads when I confirms what we used to audit the results will and what I'm getting at is. There's been a lot of news reports and a lot of videos shown and things like that that may have originated in and outside the State of Arkansas can you verify that there's a vast difference state this state in what types of machines and programming that they use I can certainly verify that the elections are yes there are there differences elections are on the state level the state uses the process the General Assembly As used in a process that I think has maybe the highest degree of security possible in my opinion it yeah we do allow that's the voting we have to but primary voting is is in person and it's it's it's it's about as secure as I know how to suggest that you often make it or that you don't suggest will come only one more thing and then I'll be done but this person that testified before senator Congress about though the machine's motion he could've been talking about a totally different system from what Arkansas uses it again I'm not speak for against the of the system I can say that systems that were referenced earlier or not used in Arkansas thank you thank you Mr. Representative. Fortner. Thank you Mr chairman and if I could have just a little attitude I would just like to make a statement about Of miss Candace and the Election Commission in Baxter County in the way that they have conducted themselves they are to be commended for the extra hours the extra effort to try to be transparent and to answer questions for everyone in the county so that people would. without any questions feel that their election was open and honest and I want that as a matter of record that I appreciate the work both Candice's her staff and the Election Commission. And the citizens of Baxter County went to make this possible thank you yes Sir and representative Richard. Thank you Mr over here. Yeah I've had this discussion with different people that have different views on this in one of the things that the the folks that are always pushing for the paper ballot solution keep coming back they they will say something and I'll try to send exactly how I've heard it before and that is. You know the information that you get the ballot that is cast the ballot that's printed off on this that yes that's going to match up but the individual may have voted differently. May plug in something different and then this different information was actually printed now I'm not sure how that could happen. But could you address that right quick as far as. I could simply say that the so you make your selections your the the electronic device gives you a chance to review the selections on electronic screen you printed out and then you have a second opportunity review the selections on the piece of paper I can all I can tell you is that the the piece of paper there is no possibility that any minute the manipulation could happen that would not be reflected if the total vote count reflected on the tabulation of ice disagrees with the English selections of the voter place on the piece of paper that the voter is able to read if there was manipulation those that there would be a discrepancy there and we've never found a discrepancy there in the it in and so far an auditing process I should added earlier of the legislature extended that to the primary as well so starting next cycle between primary and the general election all right thank you thank you for that thank you Mr. Representative ray vice chair. Thank you Mr chair Mr Schultz I think it should be reassuring to the voters of the state the results of the audits that you've. their staff is conducted having only one ballot different out of what did you say forty five thousand five hundred. There was one vote. Discrepancy or one forty five thousand five hundred and ten percent okay thank you so when when you guys conduct these audits are they opened observation by either the general public or members of the media they are we we have made no attempt to close them we didn't advertise in this this time around the first time we've done a full scale audit I think that may be something we look at in the future but we did have people in attendance in several of the counties both members of the quorum court or and I believe we may have had me I'm not certain about that we certainly had representatives of of the community who chose to be present on several occasions okay yeah that's good to know I I think as a general matter because there are some people who are cynical about the process and have reservations about it may be good to let people know our invite people to observe that may be further public confidence in the process if you guys did that I think that's an excellent idea and I will say that that's definitely the direction I'm waiting is parking in the park authorization of all forces in but I think that's very likely that we will publicize the audits for the primary and twenty twenty five twenty four great well I appreciate that and I I find the results of the audit so you guys have done very reassuring and depreciate all the work that you guys do thank you. And Michelle Samastha To re emphasize you had fifteen different counties the number she gave but as far as the people that actually conducted the handling of the ballots in the auditing they were employees of your. Your office correct that is correct it my employees the state board including myself okay and to your recollection and all fifteen of those audits we're there at least one or two maybe representative they could've been JP's occurred been media it was like you shut the door and said nobody can come in kind of pro try to know that most certainly not out we and that was discussed early on so we ask that we be there and we talk about yes we think that's a good idea and and it minimum there were represent to of the county by law the council was notified and we coordinated with the other Clerk or a commissioner coordinator so there was always someone there okay and Representive Ladyman the brother was there in the Clay County audit okay okay one question and the board's clear will finish up today's agenda the the one thing I did here when you go in and do what what's the largest County that you did audit in as far as the number about you County. The largest largest county was Pulaski County in which we counted thirteen thousand one hundred and forty eight ballots which would be eleven percent of the ballots cast the Election okay and how many people were involved in the recount of the ballots everyone except for one person in my office it was left amend the forts of seven seven the one thing of of her today's testimony that may we need to have some discussions about in the future is the length of time it took in Baxter County DO sixty five hundred votes and getting to the end of the day and not having you know clarity versus thirteen thousand one hundred forty eight in Pulaski and you came you came to agreement or we did over the course of two days but yes. I hours it. your take counsel I would say about twelve. And we only did a single race of course so the entire ballot you're essentially you would have to use a different process that would have certainly taken longer and been more complex shows first directions that are given County and I and I appreciate very much all doing the doing the volunteer thing I think that's great okay but as far as the training if you're going to do a recount what about the training so there's consistency in all seventy five counties best practices etcetera we what can we offer upon that well and I look also commend Baxter County in fact that we had some of our staff go up to Baxter County just observe they want to spend any way just observe because it is our intention to encourage in the training that will be prior to the next election cycle in twenty twenty four to encourage all counties to seriously consider doing this on the route they could have the current authority to do it under the law and I think that would be an excellent idea a civil what Baxter is done again I think sampling is advantageous over over it the entire ballot because I think it's a complex and accuracy is difficult to achieve but you can you can by randomly sampling I think you can achieve the same thing in a more efficient manner if every county will do it that's just the more and more sample size that we have the better off we all are. You're now responsible for training All workers is this is this something that is this something that you can but. But you could add to the venue as far as not not only can we but that absolutely will happen okay we'll be encouraging CBC's to consider this and giving them the best practices on how to conduct because I think one thing that would addresses the reality of the length of time it takes to recount and be accurate in your recount of because that's what I think brings confidence to the voters all right I have no other questions on the board of like to thank each of you for being here today miss grace thank you for being a poll worker at a street I'll give you just of a quick closing comments well I would like to just say that all of the training that we had for everything else and by the time they got through with that audit everybody was so frustrated because they did not know how to do it and it wasn't all done the same and and and yeah I I don't care how long it takes to count paper ballots it without any machines. All I Want is my honest vote to be counted correctly and and. I I don't know of. Okay. Some of the current. Especially when some Americans won't even properly check their balance. And they have footage showing. In that election site in and I don't recall the state right off hand but they show people feeding. A spouse to be mail in ballots feeding him into the machine as fast as the machine can take them and they're supposed to obey an mail in ballots. Well one of the guys I played golf with pieces is a well it was so easy I just called Canada and she sent me of a mail in ballot and she said I just sent it back and it was so easy us as well this one state has video footage of people feeding them into the machine and there is not a single crease on the ballot so they were never mailed out to anyone and they were never mailed back in now I know how hard we work to keep that. At a Arkansas Baxter County election. Right straight down the middle like it's supposed to be but other states don't do that and that's when they put are good vote. In with so many fraudulent votes. And when. I believe it was the Wisconsin. That the Secretary of State certified a hundred seventy four thousand. Baltz more than one registered voters yes ma'am only that they tell me up us I don't know okay the good they could they. You cannot. You cannot compete against that yes without paper ballots the good thing the other thing the good thing about everything and I will recognize Daniel over close the good thing about what you just said was. That in Arkansas we don't have that problem and that's that's the that's a good thing other states have to fix their problems well we maintain the integrity of our process that think has been echoed here today with the understanding there could be some room for improvement sign on the the methodology of recounted Daniel recognized you there were going to close out I just want to make per common it is recommended that I know college cross country would recommend that you use envelopes they don't allow the that require the mouse the crease in order to help them read better so using a non crease ballot is what you should expect if in a well run absentee ballot never the less I appreciate the committee's time appreciate commit the legislature support in helping us expand the ability to audit and We're certainly available to any questions you might have living for right thank you very much for being here with two other items on the agenda we are adjourned.