Joint Performance Review (JPR)

Meeting of the joint performance review committee of first order of business is consideration to approve the Jan twenty second minutes of I could get a motion second on that please. Your motion second any discussion or corrections on the minutes anybody sees. If not all favor say aye. Opposed all right thank you very much next is the matter that's going to bring us to here today for discussion just a few opening comments and before I do I'd like to recognize my co chair Frank comments that January one may okay thank you We're going to have a discussion today regarding and it's kind of centered around a piece of legislation that was passed this past session regarding the handling of signatures both the collection and potential destruction of signatures just to put it out there there was a situation occurred previously that kind of pre empted the need for this bill we're going to have an open air discussion about that some of the events surrounding that situation will have presenting views from both sides of the issue I am going to address the elephant in the room that during the conversation the chair interprets at some comments we made regarding a fire that took a person's home would like to separate that out from the conversation at the end and had that handled separately I'm not saying don't talk about if you're coming to present testimony but we may separate that issue because when the primary reasons we're here is to have a discussion about the gathering of signatures and also look to make sure that where we are is effective efficient and in the best interest of the voters and if there are some proposed changes legislation we need to make their come out today's conversation we can take note of that begin to work on that process one other thing and then we'll go ahead and call the first group witnesses to the table we will be sworn people in for today's testimony SO know that when you come to the table that you will be sworn in under oath and then time allows and senator Dotson is in the building but he's tied up right now but before we get out here today I may give him about five minutes because he in representive Underwood passed a piece of legislation regarding taking the signature gathering from fifteen to fifty counties and because we do have a active center signature gathering campaign going on right now we're gonna take advantage of the public format make sure people are aware of that so they can be educating case Sir approached about signing a signature it's one of the. Legislation that was passed will give him about five minutes just refresh your memory on that the public will be fully aware of the signature gathering laws that were passed this last session so with that being said of like to ask which would be the first group to come forward I want to ask John burst Melissa Harris and any others that are affiliated with these two to come to the table at this time if you would please. Members describing information while the coming in your packet of the staff has done a great job of putting together a list of some of the exhibits that are in there so that you can keep up with it and read it at whether coming to the table I'm going to ask him to recognize himself by name first and then we'll swear man and the members if you are member recognized you first for questions when that opportunity comes nonmembers you're more than welcome to ask questions appreciate you being here but I'll go to the members first and then to the non members and everybody I have a chance to ask their questions after this group is done we'll have the other group come in and they can respond and then we'll move on from there with that being said with each of you German please state your name for the record please and who you're affiliated with. I'm John Burris with capital advisors group. The contemplative let's canvasing hoster it's with the purpose for Arkansas. I'm sorry Sir your name again Hans spirits. All right if each of the general please stand raise your right hand please. Do you solemnly swear and raise your hand do you solemnly swear and affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god. All right thank you all well that whichever one you don't want to take the lead take the lead and go ahead and get started with the presentation of the thoughts in the information watcher. Thank you Mr chairman and I'll I'll do that if that's okay as a said John personal capital advisors group I'll kind of frame this up a little bit or attempt to and then let my colleagues here elaborate from their specific roles. The first thing that I wanted to address is you know why we're here and senator Hammer it on that some but during the legislative session there is a bill sponsored by senator Hammer and representative Graham like and I believe represent appointment of a a co sponsor that prohibited to specific actions the main one being a payment to destroy a signature on a petition and so in the course of presenting that legislation specifically and Senate state agencies I think it was virtually unanimous Senators. Did not understand how that was not already against the law and the issue is the it will go through some of these introductions here but we were working on a ballot question committee to remove of the casino mandate for Polk County and our opposition was funded by the casino licensee holder and one pack a lot of what happened but come the punch line of that one that legislation came was we have multiple pieces of evidence and eventually recordings some of what you have a transcript of in your packet where the tourism alliance the opposition was paying or canvassers to destroy their legally gather signatures then they're also paying our canvassers to stop their work again with multiple recordings to that effect and the recordings the agents for the tourism alliance state that that successfully paid multiple canvassers to destroy legally gathered signatures that would offer a thousand dollars in hand immediately in a thousand dollars a week to stop working when presented with that evidence we took some action we're gonna pack you know some of the steps that we took and fair play here's the ballot question committee but you know coming into the session that's the context by which you know we approach senator Hammer representative Graham what said believe it or not it's not actually gets the law to pay a campus or to destroy signature in fact it's happened we have evidence that it did Senator Hammer grows representative Graham what can we credit they took action they drafted a piece of legislation that passed virtually unanimous to prohibit those types of behavior but as I said of course that committee a lot of senators center surprise that's not against the law and in effect what else might not be against the law and I think the to me at least that's one here today and why you know I encouraged some some further discussion on this topic our of the bill that passed closed a couple loopholes but I think that there are more as we all know you know this is in my opinion but I think a lot. If you would agree the the amending our constitution business has turned into big business it is often driven by corporations who are seeking to profit off of some sort of a monopoly that they hope to gain from the petition process it's often times funded by people of who seek that that advantage we believe that amending the constitution should be treated with the highest sincerity and F. six with the utmost protections in place I will tell you that as an example of future things just to try to give examples of of of the change that we believe is needed there's been a lot of focus on the campus or I what I believe to be good legislation about regarding signatures where they can together for what's counties and things of that nature but there's been almost no focus on the officers you form these committees and the people that fund them and the tactics that they sanction and utilize such as the payment to destroy signatures so something that we would hope would come of the discussion as any at the hopefully there's more but it's an easy example is that there ought to be more transparency and accountability for officers who form these ballot question committees and attempt to amend our constitution that's something that were we're hoping to talk about and hopefully encourage all of you to address their statute I want to quickly hit on all of us and why we're here exactly because I also think there's gonna be some contrast to who we have here from our side and who is here from the other side so I'll allow the cinnamon to introduce themselves but I'll say it again on my behalf as I think most of you know I am a lobbyist one of our clients is Choctaw nation they aligned quickly in two thousand eighteen after the passage of the bill one hundred to mandate a casino in Polk County we align quickly with the folks in Polk County a vast majority of the voters included that said they did not want a casino there of course there's a business interest of that decision on behalf of my client but as someone who attended Arkansas tech family aired. AS in Russellville I knew a lot of the anti casino folks already gearing up so it's very natural for the and I called and said Hey you know believe it or not I've got a client that's actually okay with no casino and given that sixty five percent of the county so they didn't want to we're gonna be along with you And so sometimes the other side likes to make an issue of that but I would just tell you that as late legislators let's say if someone shows up and tries to put in the constitution to mandate to have a casino your county without any local controller approval will be there to support you to and I'm proud of my client for sticking by these folks in Polk County who have repeatedly said they didn't want this mandate to exist so that's my role I kind of put help to facilitate relationships and connections for with the folks at the table who formed a committee sought funding and then our vendor to run our campaigns of at that point I'll stop and allow us to these other gentlemen to introduce themselves and their role are jim if you would when you speak just restate your name please for the benefit of us and then go ahead thank you. Yes thanks retirement this hearing today members of the committee my name is Hans spirits and I'm an officer of the of fair play for Arkansas twenty twenty two ballot question committee. I'm not a politician I'm not a lobbyist monitor earning. I don't represent any commercial interests that have a connection to support or block is you know. I'm simply one long time resident of Polk County who along with six with a sixty percent majority Polk County road voters believe the consent of the wrong choice for a community. As much as I would relish tackling the question of a casino in Polk County today we're here today actually to look at the integrity of the democratic process in our state. Unfortunately men one hundred the casino amendment passed the state one vote in two thousand eighteen with no provision for local option vote leading Polk County citizens to sort out how to defend our community against the casino mandate. We quickly recognized and amending amending amendment one hundred would be necessary to permanently remove our community the crossers of multiple out of state casino interests so we formed about committee for play for Arkansas. Our canvassing team performed robustly and spider extreme opposition from the Arkansas tourism alliance the QC including outrageous activity under discussion today. Our canvassers faced assault physical intimidation harassment and other threats against their efforts to legally gather signatures. Two examples of abuse of the process will be reviewed with you all today the destruction of legally collected signatures and extreme intimidation tactics employed against or canvassers. My own son also Polk County resident work for months is a cancer we heard firsthand his accounts of the threats and physically menacing behavior that he entered day. At the home fire after a home fire was reported by one of his fellow canvassers we're all concerned for his his family's and our entire family physical safety. This is not a democratic process that we should have to accept the citizens of this state and this country. So that's my introduction brief thank you for your attention today to create a transparent just and safe process for exercising electoral rights as well as our right to determine the peace and spirit our own communities thank you. Thank you Mr chairman and members Tim Pollard I'm a partner with let's canvassing we're based in Denver Colorado would you do me a favor and pull that Mike a little closer please Sir thank you. I want to talk with you a little bit about what our firm dozen is why we created let's canvassing to try to draw a distinction between our firm and some others in the industry who have different standards that we do my partners are all based in the political and public relations consulting roles we have a very large public affairs firm in Denver the largest the rocky mountain region and we lots of corporate affairs work some lobbying and and some of the media and advertising all those things so we had lots of opportunities in those those consultancy areas to use canvassing and or center collection purpose for applying the time the claim might wanna put an issue on the ballot a client might want to win reelection and you need canvassing so we were always using of vendors to put together those services as we were doing the campaign consulting the sign what we found over the years is that we were never satisfied with the product received from from some of those other firms so let's really born out of necessity to want to professional lies and make a more sophisticated product and deliver a white glove service for clients in the field operations as we did in the other public affairs consulting business so I sell that's a the the blitz really was born of the sausage to offer those services and different way than we saw other vendors to. So we started with canvassing in two thousand fourteen the industry at the time of people we'd seen before or at best not professional at all times and it were sometimes bad actors industry really was a little littered with bad actors we decided right from the beginning that we would employ a new series of technology and data driven accountability systems to stress stop fraud would background check all our employees and not not allow anyone to work for us it was a felon or hardened criminal of course which what's yours your laws Arkansas require that anyway we were doing it ten years earlier without the requirement for the state because we didn't want that kind of product from our clients. Since two thousand fourteen blesses worked in more than twenty states campus and collecting signatures last year twenty twenty two to election cycle we're talking more than forty thousand dollars per day in multiple states and we qualified candidates about issues in multiple states. So we work a lot of heart issues a Benetton and plenty of tough fights we've never seen anything like the blocking campaign we experience in Arkansas on twenty twenty two we work for the fair play for Arkansas initiative to. the blocking campaign is engineered by the caller trulance beach you see in there hired mercenaries company called let the voters decide run by mark Jacoby employed tactics that were just. Well beyond the rights of the opposing side have free speech and and actually came criminal activity in multiple multiplications and for those you don't know a blocking is locking is kind industry term we use for someone who's opposing a signature collection products so that the the other team wants to either slow down or stop you from collecting signatures we have a right to have a free speech debate and let their opinions be known For what goes beyond that weren't what we wanted delves into harassment intimidation cases sold and maybe one case arson we believe the rules changed about to make sure that those kind of actors can't act you're anymore we know that you pass a couple laws last year to require people who block to also be registered and background checked and resins for we think that is a great step forward we appreciate that leveling the playing field for the both the opponents and supporters of the ballot measures are very important to us. I would talk just for a minute about tactics they use against that we hadn't seen before we we've been blocked in many states and usually of locker and is standing next to a petition gathering a grocery store parking lot with the sinuses don't trust this guy with the personal information or decline to sign or this guy's gonna raise your taxes don't sign petitions things like that they're they're they're debate since fair public square and we don't have the right to access our free speech what we saw here was very different and Mr us just a little bit about the first tactic they use was actually five people off and and they they can get our our our employees homes residents addresses because you're renter's secretary of state the Senator collectors they would wait outside people's homes offer the thousand dollars on the spot and a thousand Bucks a week to stay home and not work. I don't know where that's illegal Arkansas or not I'm not I'm of an expert Arkansas law it certainly is on American it certainly is wrong without a road if the level tortious interference contract probably but we're so focused on getting the to the deadline to get senator Wallace and have time to litigate that issue with and you know this sixty or ninety days we have to get the project done so. But it's it's almost like It's not a restraint under you know you want to keep you from being able to work for different players of someone didn't like working for me and want to go work for the other side of the campaign that's probably fair this is more like you have a chick fillet McDonald's on the same block and the employer or manager don the standing apart chick fillet paying people to go home and not work that's not right that's not free speech does not American in addition they were reporting those things as what they were doing they were they were the the ballot question committee was reporting expenditure for consulting services when action or paying people not to work one thing I would like to speak about this I think is more transparency and Mr stock for about that more transparency on how the ballot question committees reporter expenditures in the categories a report of an. But that was only beginning the beginning of the story if the money didn't work the resort is some tactics that I would consider more gray and and and probably illegal in some cases where big scary looking men usually operating teams two or three or more would go and S. the stage Raskin associate in grocery store parking lots they would yell and scream obscenities that would threaten in one case they punch or cancer in the face you Senator nothing went into seek medical treatment he was worried about if that didn't work they would go into the manager of the store and tell fake stories about our canvassers harassing the parking lot of the store manager kick them out just very quickly went from paying people not to work to actual physical harassment intimidation. They would follow people home they would sit outside their house they would say things to the parking lot light but with this job you know it's good for you it in in ways that we actually at some that's some point during the end of the campaign we're hiring security at our offices at our church and our signature turning location to escort people to and from their cars because we're worried about these people actually causing real physical harm or threatening missile physical harm correct canvassers. And we had even after the pay offs and these have been incidents we had dozens of Louise to really battle through this first types two types of tactics everyday but it got worse from there they follow home that would scare them they actually ran a at least one of our employees off the road right one night in a car so these kind of things are not normal is not free speech activities these are things that approach criminality. And what will I think one thing we learned here is that having the the field balance and equal for what the supporters the committee can do and what the opposers and again do is very important we appreciate the couple laws passed last year started balance that that the little more and we're happy to talk through more these issues as we go on today thank you okay we'll raise questions. Centreboard. Thank you. I thank my question is to the gentleman on the green there strong okay so that I understand you correctly that the people and discount and Polk County did not want the casino and that in essence the whatever our constitutional amendment process is is forcing a casino into an area that the voters in this and said that in one of the the only. Opportunity that that kind of citizens have to weigh in at the ballot box at a at a Jenny one legal election was the the vote on issue for men one hundred and two thousand eighteen what County voters voted against amendment one hundred issue for by the highest margin of any county in the state sixty percent forty percent. But the women were hundreds written there was no no provision for local option bill focuses of citizens determine their own of their own community and and then except as of the casino in the town so census the state was forced the state to this continent is forcing the potential for that license on both County with no written or dress from a from focuses about box that's correct okay so the the rest of the state in essence is forcing its will that Polk County has to have a casino. And the only way to undo that that you know of is to change the constitution back unless the constitution is change that will always sit on top of the programming yes thank you. The representative when. Thank you Mr I guess to provide a little bit of context here. I and this is for really anybody at the table let me first ask how many signatures were required for this petition drive to be successful rough numbers a representative going approximately ninety thousand we were able to gather internet about eighty eight thousand civil two thousand short right roughly speaking yes Sir are there any estimates of how many of the petitions were thrown away or destroyed as requested no Sir on I do hope that that's something that we could have a live set on it today all that we know is we have multiple recordings of their agents presenting our canvassers cash money and payment to throw away signatures and stop gathering that's an important factor the list of the signatures or to the recordings it says specifically throw away what you gather do not turn in on your turn in day stop gathering so wasn't about one petitions it was about signatures in hand were voter had signed we have no way of knowing what the quantity was all we know is that their agents on these recordings that you have in your packet stated that they had successfully done this with many other canvassers but it was legal that Mr David couch one of the organizers of the speech you see at sanction the behavior and that they have successfully paid multiple canvassers to destroy multiple signatures and not at the the blitz could I add to this if they like but we sought practically I was very engaged what would happen is just signatures would to use a modern term maybe ghost their employer they just would stop showing up even where alternate day I personally had it with this phone calls where we were canvassers were demanding more money to come turn it signatures because someone was standing in front of them with money for them not to turn them in and they were attempting to turn it into a bidding war and we drove a pretty hard line and I was proud of what's for doing this and said if you don't turn your signatures we will sue you for a tortious. Interference and for us you know destruction of property was the was the important part said so no we're not offer you more money we've paid to bring your signatures to us there are property if you do not you will be sued some did not all did but based on the evidence the recordings that are personal experience I think it's safe to assume that there was more than a couple thousand in the batch that it in the batches that were paid to be destroyed by the opposing side. Let me just for the folks I mean obviously we here have a a transcript of the audio recordings but for the folks who do not have that and to kind of highlight the seriousness of what is taking place because the petition process is very essential to the democratic process under which we live and that we're trying to find out what is the actual will of the people on the page one the a person named says throw your petitions in the trash and you don't collect another signature we've done this with other canvassers page three or four actually representing wing yes which which exhibit are you referring to just servers yeah they paid the sales exhibit C. two. Thank you C. two has a a transcript of the audio recording. And so yeah that was paid to that on page four the big thing today is that as long as those petitions don't get turned in. This to me is is exceptionally concerning when we're thwarting the will of the people and at this point evidently it was legal to do this we have since fixed that but it is highly unethical to do this and I appreciate the opportunity to be able to bring this to light. Thank you and if I might add quickly service I think an important point that I failed to mention at the beginning there's always one off incidents I think what bothered us and what bothered not to speak for based on commentary of of legislators in committee was that this was seemingly intentional you also and and part of a conspiracy you have in your packet also of an article about a vendor that was hired by the tourism alliance's name's March Kobe he is a convicted voter fraudsters you can Google his name it is not difficult multiple stories he was paid around the may time frame six hundred fifty thousand dollars direct and he was paid directly by the casino licensee holder and it was reported as an in kind contribution to the tourism alliance so you have the license holder who the artist who was attempting to remove that license authority from the constitution the license holder paid unknown a convicted criminal in this farm six hundred fifty thousand dollars to come to Arkansas deployed Arkansas his the article references the signature gathering army that was deployed Arkansas on behalf of the license holder in the tourism alliance why they paid him directly I do not know what was reported as an in kind contribution I do not know to where that money went we do not know none of the all this first hand evidence of payment to the store signatures is reflected absolutely nowhere in the finance report to the beach you see it's all bundled payments to vendors like Marc Jacoby and so the I mentioned earlier that I think my experience with this was that the licenses especially become a win at all cost perspective specially from the license holders and I think that's why you're willing to employ criminals if you must to stop the will of the voters and I would say no stop what I meant to say this earlier I do think there's a contrast because I introduced myself and I don't necessarily have to be here I have no official role but you know for that some of you might know like I don't I don't. Really wind up putting myself here because I think it was relevant and my experiences role that I had people sitting outside my house at one point we stored the petitions about seventy thousand in my attic and I didn't leave my home for two weeks so we had a car sitting outside my house for two weeks straight walk out every morning and try to talk to when they would drop off and so I was happy to sit here and talk about my perspective I think that it's important and I think the fact that we have everyone to the point about contrast you have myself representing a donor to the you know whose client is a donor to the beach you see you've got to be to see officer you've got a vendor I have a picture this article is what you have mark Jacoby a convicted of fraud stir that was paid six hundred fifty thousand dollars uh by the license holder he will he was on the list of the year he will never be here you can subpoena you can protest you can do whatever you want he will never sit here be accountable to the legislature because he is a criminal and he did what he was paid to do so the fact that we have all of our people here down to the vendors shows how confident we are in our position in our actions I think it's reflective of how it works you should not be able to hire criminals to run opposition efforts against Arkansas citizens seeking to access the ballot through legal means representing a file I don't think I'd like to say is just I'd appreciate for the members of this committee to appreciate the context of what we're talking about here we're talking about a petition gathering process that was legal war Polk County with was responding to a constitutional amendment from two thousand and eighteen which was legal the other seventy four counties supported this Polk County decided we didn't want to be a part of this so Polk County uninitiated to drive to pull themselves out which was legal and then during that process of petition gathering they fell two thousand signatures short we have documented evidence of what took place to eliminate the will of the people there. Polk County so I just wanted to make that known as we continue this discussion thank you Mr chair representative wooden. Thank you Mr chairman others will be sure I'm understanding correctly and representative wing landed fairly comprehensively for me. But. I guess I guess the main question is what what do you expect from the Committee or what is your what do you want to accomplish by your testimony here today I mean. I understand we are not and I agree with well represented when but what what do you want us to do or. Yes Sir I would say a couple things I think having this discussion is an important first step and I don't say that is a platitude it's just I bet a lot of your hearing this information for the first time just like when the bill was presented and and Committee on two specific issues my specific code as just someone who cares about the state and state policy and amending our constitution is that something that comes out of this is more count ability for B. Q. sees and they're registered agents in their principles as I said earlier there's been a lot of focus on canvassers and I think that's fine and well and well intentioned and problem and even good policy but there's almost no laws governing how these B. Q. sees are formed funded and how they're accountable I don't think B. Q. C. should be able to hire criminals I think they should be held accountable for the vendors that they do hire and I think we should treat amended the constitution with the utmost guardrails and protections and the best way to do that is starting at the top and that is the B. people that form and fund these B. Q. C. is attempting to amend our constitution we think that's an area so I think it's a more general way to answer questions or would be to say we hope that this discussion brings alive more ways in which this process can be improved to put guard rails around our constitution. Okay are you saying that the law that we adopted in the last session is not strong enough it certainly address two key points and we were you know we brought that issue to senator Hammer and and the other and it was just honestly like we did have a client we didn't have anybody asking us to do it it was me sitting around our office still a little bit stewing about what happened and so one day I called senator Hammer I think some other bills have been filed and I said Sir like here's our experience could you authorize us to draft a bill to make it a crime to pay destroy signature I think you said something the effect of that's already a crime is that what you would think so but it's not so that was the start senate that the most obvious point but we think there's many other ways in which this process can be improved. So you say you didn't have a client with the who do you who have you lobbied for is is is a Choctaw nation or Turkey which our client in the spaces the Choctaw nation Choctaw nation yes Sir and you stated that they would not go into a community without a local referendum on the location of a consent in that county it in Polk County at that's that was their very stated position he was in the context of Polk County here we made it very known that amendment passed November twenty eighteen I think by December we were in Polk County and and there is some contacts not to go too deep into the casino weeds but at the time a lot of the casinos around the country were started show up in Polk County saying Hey you're gonna have one here where you're where the best partner with the best partner my client from our first phone call said we have no interest in forcing a casino there can be set up some meetings we can go meet with the folks and we can share our support for the local option at the time there is a requirement for there to be a local vote of the council before there was a casino that eventually got overturned by the quorum court in a letter issued by the county judge but at the time that was on the books and we stated very publicly our support for there to be a local vote before there was a conciliator support issue. So you feel from the standpoint of remedy that the law needs to be certain that there's not there's not any legal address for you all to pursue of harassment intimidation threats that time fun a lot of times in the it's a good point because another thing I I'm just giving my opinion our hope is that this discussion creates many ideas of accountability for B. two seasons a place I would start B. Q. season organizers but also I think that's a great point Sir I don't just say that one thing that we saw that would be an idea we would suggest is a more streamlined approach for reporting bad behavior on the part of B. Q. season their vendors what would happen for us and there's a wide range here we're going to eventually talk about the arson alleged arson but there there was a lot of range of activity the most common was simply causing a disruption we would have canvassers oftentimes women just surrounded and called names and yell that which in and of itself is in a crime in a lot of times if you just cause enough of a scene in a Walmart parking lot the manager's going to ask you to leave and ninety percent of the time it was just causing a scene and these are mostly out of state or out of state license plates again the signature gathering army that was hired by the beach you see I think the story speak for themselves in terms of their tactics and so often times it was just you could call a normal level harassment Elise legal level harassment that caused a disruption with the but directly when it did cross a line I know law enforcement was called multiple times and you almost always what would happen is well once that phone call was made the the blocker the paid blocker professional block we just leave the scene and and there was nothing to report I called the capitol police down to our office multiple times because we had people to circling our office but sometimes taking something out the door that look like a bat and then like when I would walk out they would just yell. Obscenities put me off out the window and drive off and so what we call the cops with people leave and and and what we've experienced was just the local authorities especially just don't have the experience to deal with this type of behavior you know the the first thing it was often said was cage just leave and go somewhere else so well it's not really that simple this is my job like a and and it creating the destruction just cause problems but more than anything what we saw and even with the arson case which we will talk about is there was not clear channels by which law enforcement was empowered and educated to pursue action and so an idea that we would propose is making it more clear whether it's the AG's office with the ethics commission or some entity have a clear channel to report and be in charge of policing these ballot question committees let me interrupt represent wooden if you want to give back you I guess that'll be fine thank you Mr chairman. Sure I got I got five others in here so thank you here's the bat in order got Senator Rice fo by Senator Dismang followed by. Senator Irvin. then representative Richmond and then Senator Solomon so Senator Rice Europe. Thank you Mr I'll be short at with we heard testimony to Senate judiciary I was agencies yes Sir I'm not on state agencies I'm sorry your I'm I should not have had it out here I said state agencies but you're right I saw I saw that Brandon I thought maybe opportunity so I'm I'm wrong I'm sorry but Senate judiciary we did and I and I have some questions in an let's go back in and you've got a covered some of it I mean there there's no filing requirements down to the. DO that small that that even candidates have to do evidently in this you can go up at all in a consultant is what I've I've heard you say but I'll I'll just ask you this because it was my statement and Senate judiciary and I'm sure not a lawyer or a law student it yourself like racketeering. It is what it sounds like in we're we're which are not enough. Information and and Bible Charge that somebody would be willing to go after that do we not have an empty federal or otherwise. That would go into this we're talking about changing the constitution we're talking about her being Peoples Interest in boating or having things to do with their their local economy when they feel like this can go on. It was or anything anything ever came out of the question of racketeering or any of those that are. The main thing that we discussed how Tim and Hans please join in as the vendor kind of refreshing vendor and local beach you see officer other thing that we discussed the most was tortious interference and destruction of property which would be a civil case against a canvassers what we quickly learned and at it is it was just probably going to be a Jew is not worth the squeeze situation we would have to depend on individual canvassers who were just hourly employees spend a lot of time and money and in the and could we show damages by showing that we it cost us ballot access it's just really difficult to do one thing that we did it attempt to explore was what rules exist for license holders is there anything in state law rule or regulation that governs the actions of license holders that's something that we have not that just because of time and effort and lack of expertise seven full impact but I think it's a it's a fair question you know if you're going to spend a lot of money to get signatures to get on the ballot run ads to pass something and in this one at all costs mentality that is often times is petition process does the state have any ability to govern the actions of its license holders because in this instance the license holder hired a known criminal to oppose our efforts so we have the full impact that but I think it would be worthy of the discussion as well as exactly what you mention out of that state or federal level conspiracy racketeering if there's any if there's any charge if there's any allegation and I believe I saw one pretty day on offense this is that one of the people that phone it had charges of some some level of conviction even if it service community service is making the statement in California the Sixers fan forty to fifty million dollars in ninety days. In come get it you know if that doesn't line up. With some concern for for racketeering and some things we've heard any get I realize that you've got to be able to prove things but it is it's very concerning and hopefully the law that passed can stop some of it but I think we've got a ways more to go thank you. Senator Dismang. Thank Mister chairman and it's a it's a pretty strange world That evidently some these folks live in one thing I was going to ask is it is just really and kind of your own research and I think in some things up together I agree the consulting services payment is very vague but I mean all of that is transactions that are reportable to someone including the State of Arkansas so and if I'm if I'm reading have just a couple of questions number one I think it's Christian foster and says you know we will pay I don't think there was a dollar amount and transcript maybe that somewhere else there is another transfer in another one okay yeah in so anything over six hundred dollars is paid to anyone is going to be an automatic ten ninety nine there also you know subject the workman's comp policy that they would fall under for that particular entity in a a number of other things and so in talking to your canvassers that were approached they would have each had to fill out a I think it's Debbie nine a member of the top of my head to be able to receive that payment even from the individual and also would have to have to prove whether or not they have workman's comp insurance and and that sort of thing so in talking your canvassers that were approached with those requests made and that they provide that information because amended to Christian. I can remember riding Christians comment you know they're not going to try to do anything illegal or pay cash so how were they paying existed I'll continue on my questions after that but it well and I unfortunately the only canvassers we were able to ask questions to or the one to turn down the bribery offer K. so in the recordings that we have that we provided to you those issues were never mentioned but we were talking to the people who were not accepting the offer. Me because six hundred fifty thousand dollars in the consulting contract gets divvied out someone I'm sure there's some equipment in overhead costs that would happen but most of it's probably for paid services I would assume again all of it would be reportable as long as it exceeded six dollars no per individual or III and or whatever it may be so I'd be curious and hopefully we'll have somebody answer that question later on in the deal and with that I'll love stop at this point. Are going to the only one on board right now Senator Irvin. Thank you Mr chairman not a member of the committee so I appreciate the ability to ask a question I'm concerned I had my nephew work for the LA times for short period and he was sent me a voter guide that was you know over a hundred pages long and it was because of all the ballot initiatives that were occurring in the state of California and you know he is very very liberal individual of course I am not but he was so concerned about the breakdown of of how laws are being made and how companies big big money at play here that are just by passing the Legislative The legislative process and going straight to a ballot initiative to change the constitution to get what they wanted and and we talked at length about it I guess for me I also want to hear I hear the criminal side of things but what about the accountability side of things the transparency side of things for people that are seeking signatures what is what are the requirements to provide to somebody before you get a signature because quite frankly when I've been approached is literally been somebody just saying a sentence and half the time I knew that they were just making it up so there was no proof there was no evidence behind what they were trying to gather signature for are there any requirements at the federal level or I mean we I don't know if we have any that kids all answer that question. Well it Mr Pollard take a first since he has multiple state experience I don't know that thank you Sir because you stayed closer than mine yes thank you for the question I don't know of any federal overlay of the House requirements many states do have requirements of what has to be in you know big bold letters on top position like Arkansas does so if anyone wants to look at what they're signing normal the petition will say at least a summary of what it is but but you're right again they're bad actors in this industry and we've seen people who totally bait and switch on petitions and say these are the opposite of what they're trying to do is I'm opportunity we we handle that very carefully unless we do with extensive training with all employees whether W. twos your ten ninety nines of the goes to read long powerpoint deck on expectations rules requirements code of conduct in a very long sequence on what the initiative is that they're working on they're all armed with the talking point sheet they have questions and answers faqs so we make sure there are people are able to answer those questions obviously you know not everybody has all good actors some there's some bad actors in any group when we find those when we find Times and people are not per of promoting the initial like they're supposed to we take those very seriously in those those people are terminated very quickly organization I can't say the same offer some other organizations are there any states that require a handout of exactly what the ballot initiative states and with that with a cult with the requirement of them collecting the signature and healthcare we have to provide that to every patient so that we have inform them of the HIPAA laws. That's a good question I don't know of a state that we were to the House of handout requirement most states do require something in large type printed on the sheet they're signing or in some cases of full legal thing on the back the full initiative if the person wants to read it but I don't know the state requires a handout I think that would be a challenge to you as a vendor to look through that as a good practice I mean we have to or it requires us to to inform our patients about the Federal Heppell laws and health care why wouldn't you want to inform somebody who was a signature as some of you are asking for a signature or something why would that also be a requirement that was just one thing that are brought up and then the second thing I just wanted to to mention was you know in your estimate how much money is at stake here with any kind of a ballot initiative I mean I see in this article it's you know between forty and fifty fifty million in ninety days. But how much money do you think is is is here and to the FBI have any input in this because. I mean I can only imagine there's a lot of money spent by other fair play folks and the other side you talk in a ton of money at stake in on the table here where was the FBI. I will say in terms of the ballot question committees the fairplay homes do you remember our exact number it was multiple millions of from your side it was it was around four million right on our side and that was you know the opposing side the tourism alliance which represented the license holder you know including their and con contributions from the license holder were multiple seven figures just from my work and in Polk County you know listening to these presentations on the casinos I would say that alive essentially a lifetime casino licenses pretty close to invaluable and that's why it turns into this one at all cost mentality then my position you. Okay thank you so much. Right of questions no no later members on board so let me ask a question or two and and and kind of hit us so short answer be fun but wherever there was like harassment or intimidation raise those things that you mentioned people filing you know of an accusation of running somebody off the road without anything and I'm I'm not necessarily questioning but looking at it from all angles. Pretty strong accusation to save somebody ran somebody off the road and automatically affiliated with the group when you don't have anything to back it up other than you know your perception so as far as reporting anything to law enforcement and anything substantive coming out of which reported to law enforcement there there was no convictions nobody was charge somebody arrested. My right or wrong you are correct loss we call law enforcement is to kind of a. Live and experience being involved at least a dozen or so times I mean I have the cops show up at my office twice because I called and so I know that when there was an instance of someone being run off the road and and to your point she knew that it was because they were harassing on parking lot and got in the car followed if you tried out run when they eventually you know forced off the roadway it was someone that we actually all no I'm not gonna say the name because they were uncomfortable but I know that doesn't do a lot but I it was like a true story and so we call law enforcement at least a dozen or so times and as I stated earlier a lot of times it was just yeah the incident was over there wasn't clear evidence of a violation I know at one point where it really sucked out as blitz instituted a policy of of making sure canvassers we're always in a team so there would be someone there to film and we have a lot of like video evidence subject of just harassment but again the problem of the when you hold a camera you know the worst kind of behavior stops I quickly adding and I know we're we're attempting to block it off these conversations but the of the most egregious act. was against cancer will who testified and Senate Committee on Judiciary and she was so she's one who were recorded the offer to for payment to destroy her signatures she refused to she sent a letter or fair place in a letter with the transcript that recording to the pope county prosecutor in may and then following that report to the prosecutor and artists and issued an investigation I believe you have that letter the prosecutor in your packet I think an important point here as we were trying to take steps while also just trying to access the ballot with the clock ticking and that's that's a little bit hard to understand unless you're in the moment but we were just you know whack a mole all day long and so we once we started recording these conversations that with the office of bribery reported to the pope county prosecutor in may and then after the that lady that campus or reported she was continually harassed that you testified Senate committee to the point of being surrounded by four men constantly calling her names at one point she said why are you treating me like this I do not know who you are they said well we know who you are and they said her name her household size for address and then she testified that they did follow her about halfway home that day and then a couple days later her house was destroyed by fire in the middle of the night while her family was inside her children and her skate to the back window the family pet died they had no homeowners insurance and a third party licensed professional investigator concluded that it was arson case and all that to the state police and the prosecutor and they in effect said it was a civil matter they were going to investigate all right and we'll get to that in a minute now that you've made that comment I got to represent within and have nobody on the board I have no other questions so we'll let let the other side come up in a in a second representative within thank you Mr chairman of Mr law how many how many cases. Seventy five counties how many people have the storage mode to. Dozens in my experience all of them yes I think that's right back towards the end when the blocking campaign really came to a head the last sixty days or so reading multiple incidents today all over the state mostly centered around population centers up on northwest and here in Little Rock we were operating about fifteen times that point three four towns every day there was an incident did you did you reported to each prosecuting attorney. I mean this sounds like to me some of this sounds like terroristic threatening. The only one we reported the prosecutor was the incident of alleged arson otherwise we call law enforcement there were some reports made and especially when the gentleman was punched you know that the that was documented again I I keep coming back to just often times people to flee the scene before we have cops have these are professionals it's a signature gathering army as defined by the owner of this farm so they know what they're doing was it a make photographs of them of the bank or grass of the license plates I mean some of this is to me. Service offenses that are covered by other legal remedy by the individual that was threatened attacked or accusations muddy We we did add it to come back to we did report and even you have in your packet a letter to the prosecutor that we sent in Polk County I do see one there's seven other no I'm I can remember exactly how many but there are many others besides Polk County. Yesterday we reported multiple instances a law enforcement I to to well not a problem what about prosecutor the only process left to the prosecutor was the one in pope county thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr Lowe all right one other one and then going to draw the line after this one represent Lundstrum thank you Sir I'd like to follow up on the arson issue arsons a criminal offense and why would any law enforcement just. Let that pass yes sorry what's the what's the follow up on that as senator Hammer alluded I think we're gonna discuss that a little bit further that there is there is a letter in your packet from the prosecutor he sent yesterday we saw for the first time yesterday explaining some of his logic candidly I will say what he what what he explains in terms of why he chose not to investigate it's the first time we've seen it upon reviewing I think every issue he raises or is easily answered and I hope is that by talking about it today yeah there is a renewed focus on conducting some level of an investigation and we can explain the steps we took to try to ensure that that happened but it did not and and I think that there are again what he raises concerns in his letter are easily addressed with a single phone call and we have to address some of those today okay thank you off preserve the rest my questions for later thank you all right no other questions final comments. No Sir just appreciate your attention again our hope is that this discussion can create more transparency and more fairness on this process will be happy to come back up and answer questions or provide anything from the other side under oath thank you all right of. And you want to come on up and whoever you want to bring with you please and. Members just so you know we're gonna hear from Mr McDaniel and give you same opportunity answering ask any questions that you want to ask then we're going to put a little focus on the issue of the question about the arson of the House and We'll try to get wrapped up. He's good and. Good morning of feel would please state your name and who you're fairly it was for the record please. But how about now good morning Mr chairman my name's Dustin McDaniel with me sir Kate brown she's a law Clerk in our law firm and she's going to be in charge of the. Puter for me okay before we get started so would please stand will patrol under oath is a declared at the beginning ask your please stand raise right hand to the extent miss brown is not offering any testimony that is it necessary that should be sworn let's do this if if not then just have a seat if some question should be asked would do it at that point we'll honor that request thank you do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony but yet the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do thank you Sir all right down to turn it over to you for presentation. chairman Hammer chairman very members of the committee my name is Dustin McDaniel I'm an attorney a we start that has not been sent to staff or to assist others this is not been previously sent to the staff correct no it has been it was provided this morning. Okay give me of so let's do this members were run to this will work on getting it from I don't think she I don't think she has are you able to send it to her right now or when this is concluded about that okay just send okay handed or a of some drive with this morning. I don't know what that means it's all good just a when when we get done with it let's get it said Kate staff and the members will put it up on someone in our office to email it to you right now someone's there that could do that or if you need to duplicate that we brought to some Grubbs. She have one. We'll go internal. Okay that works we have an extra thumb drive will just handed to you that'll work great I think the one we gave to you we thought you were going to keep and apparently got returned so that's all good communication so good. is it alright if I go ahead Mr tryin Mr so my name is Dustin McDaniel I'm an attorney with the little rock law firm of make Daniel Wolff I'm licensed to practice law in Arkansas and Washington DC I serve as a law professor at the William H. Bowen School of Law I served in the Arkansas house of representatives in two terms as the fifty fifth Attorney General of the state of Arkansas I am now the national co chair of the society of Attorney General emeritus and I have been a sworn law enforcement officer in the state of Arkansas for twenty nine years most of that with the Jones were police department now I'm hidden away in the Sleepy Hollow of points at the Poinsett county sheriff's department in short I have committed my entire life to the law and I take the oath today that I've taken very seriously I will respect the chair's request to delay were responding to any reference to this fire until later but I assure the committee that I very much look forward to doing so In the meantime I'll skip ahead and think about. Why I think we're here of there's one thing I do agree with our process to amend our constitution is far less than perfect it is complicated and expensive and incentivize for those who look to somehow benefit themselves rather than the public at large I think that that has been true for a long time and I think you know certainly support the legislature's efforts to try to address that when I became Attorney General it became my job to approve ballot titles and popular names before people could even circulate amendments and petitions at all complicate the process is complicated but it lease gave some significant peace of mind the people who were going to circulate petitions that the measure consent withstand legal scrutiny and would actually make it to the ballot my successor general Rutledge working with the legislature to move that task over to the board of election commissioners and the review process was moved to after the signatures had already been gathered the practical effect with of that was that it was extremely burdensome on people you would circulate petitions and spend millions of dollars trying to gather signatures and would have no idea whether or not you're you're measure was going to survive legal scrutiny at all I thought that that was unfair and believe that if people are going to do that they ought at least have some assurance from the state that that if they get their signatures are going to make the ballot to that end representative David Ray earlier this year ran a bill that got almost unanimous support from both houses that would return the task to the AG's office and return the timing of the scrutiny of the ballot title to the beginning of the process instead of being in I spoke with general Griffin many times about it and. I strongly supported his efforts and decision to return that duty to his office. Why is that important why is it relevant to us being here well empowering the Attorney General to again act as a gatekeeper before measures or circulated will substantially increase the public's trust in the process and the integrity of the process which I think is at the core of what we all care about here over the legislature has been over the years the legislature has been concerned about the petition process we clearly heard a number of questions about that today none of the questions and concerns that have been voice today our new we can go back to two thousand and five when I was in the legislature and the same questions were being asked then how do you balance one's free speech rights to say you know whatever they want to say and the ability to campaign with some level of accountability and integrity I know that none of you have ever had a political opponent who said something that was not true. But it does happen from time to time and at least of some people think that it happens even more than it does there are laws on the books trying to curtail that in this arena we have laws that prohibit forging in falsifying signatures we have laws that prohibit intentionally missed misrepresenting what a measure does in order to speak to trick a voter into signing a petition there's laws that prohibit canvassers from collecting signatures without properly registering as a paid canvassers or manipulating the notary stamp or adding signatures after the petition has been notarized and many many more. But I sat here and listened to Mister Pollard under oath talking about the integrity of his process and how they would have clearly been highly successful but for the the roaming mobs of may him that that stood in their way and I'm here to tell you that that is simply not entirely the case I'm going to present to you substantial evidence that they violated every single one of those laws on numerous occasions and we the Secretary of State a great debt for standing between them in their effort to put a fraudulent measure on the ballot. fairplay. Failed to make the ballot for a lot of response and blockers certainly probably were one of them Mr David couch is going to be a witness to come up and I'll defer to him is that was kinda at flat was on his side of the car to a great extent but I do believe that Mr Burris gives the ATA the Arkansas tourism alliance more credit really is fair there measure was doomed from the start and I'm going to give you a taste of why the Arkansas tourism alliance was to my knowledge the first professional campaign in Arkansas specifically designed to fight an amendment before it ever got to the ballot and I think that the the the act now seven sixty six passed by chairman Hammer and others is a very reasonable response to some of the concerns that were raised in that process I support keeping that playing field level and I'm happy to answer questions about it but what brought us here in the first place how do we even get here well as was said amendment one hundred passed in twenty eighteen and it created for casino licenses Polk County Garland County Crittenden County and Jefferson County three of those four were spoken for committed and done before the measure ever got its first signature there was only going to be one hope county which was up free and fair open competition scrum FOR and extremely valuable license and my client Cherokee Nation a Cherokee Nation businesses LLC which operates ten casinos in eastern Oklahoma now the gold strike casino in tunica Mississippi and holds the license in Polk County work very diligently to earn the license from the Arkansas racing commission and despite the testimony given earlier that the Choctaw. And didn't want it and didn't have anything to do with it and certainly supported local desires to keep their community casino free they still applied and submitted an application in twenty nineteen to the Arkansas racing commission and when they have not been successful they have been lobbying for that Lysons and litigating for that license every sense they're still litigating to the supreme and if if the Supreme Court right now seeking to either take our license or get one for themselves or re open application period so that they can try again to submit for. We have thus far one four cases at the Arkansas Supreme Court and the last four years and we have one last case pending before the Supreme Court this year and we expect to be successful much on some of the same principles that we've heard a lot about recently on separation of powers and and difference to executive agencies and not allowing the Pulaski County circuit judges to look over the shoulder of executive agencies every time decision is made. They're not the only truck does not the only ones to litigate there is a small committed group that was referred to in previous testimony the citizens for better Polk County C. P. B. C. I've I've called by their acronym or initials they brought number of lawsuits as well but all have been dismissed in twenty twenty one I think I guess I gather that citizens for better Polk County and the Choctaw nation. Didn't have a great deal of faith in their remaining litigation so they decided that their best bet if they weren't going to get the license for the Choctaw and the citizens didn't want anyone to have a license they should combine forces run a constitutional amendment and repeal of the Polk County license altogether Choctaw couldn't have it they didn't want anybody to have it now they have a casino all right now just the other side of Fort Smith their parking lot is in Arkansas and the casinos in Oklahoma and you literally walk across the state line when you park and we're going to go play so I certainly understand their motivation in wanting to keep up a competing could casino out of Russellville there court documents say that they'll lose ten to twenty million dollars a year if they have to compete with of a casino in Russellville so from there this C. P. C. B. PC formed a ballot question committee called fairplay for Arkansas which is what we discussed I called fairplay. And it reported local faith leaders some of whom are here today as their organizer's it was run essentially by Mr Burris and at least four point two million dollars of it was funded by the Choctaw casino so um in response. We created a ballot question committee called Arkansas tourism alliance the ATA to oppose their efforts our strategy was pretty simple educate voters about what they're being asked to sign when they're approached with a petition in a parking lot hire people to wear hats and hold signs and do basic campaign work I can assure you that not only was No one hate incentivized or encouraged to commit any crimes that I heard of or had any evidence of it. They would have been fired or referred to law enforcement or both I run a lot of campaigns you run a lot of campaigns I mean we've all had some strongly motivated supporters and volunteers but how many of your people would actually go because you're trying to win reelection campaign go run somebody off the road I have no evidence that that happened at all all of the police reports that we are aware of that were filed in any county. Was kind of what they said you have people in a Walmart parking lot running around giving you know trying to get somebody to sign a petition most people don't want to do that in the first place then you have somebody wearing this very ugly hat but pretty easy to spot of come walking up with the sign and say Hey don't sign that just so you know that's actually a a failed casino applicant trying to kill competition and kill a thousand jobs in Arkansas here's a flyer about what they're measure actually does and if you want to know more go online and and and check out our website. What what do most people in a Walmart parking lot when you have two people debating about a petition are they going to do most of our gonna say no thanks they're just going to walk off so yeah that was generally relatively effective and there is no doubt that the blitz canvassing staff was most displeased about it and they did in fact call the police a lot not one time have I had heard that anyone was arrested or charged or even validly accused of doing anything other than standing there talking the same voters that the petitioners were. The next step was to try to educate people in mass we've purchased TV time we purchased radio time we put out a message encouraging people to learn about what was coming in front of the. Only thirty seconds because he knows in Arkansas Johnson Lucy towards now rejected our state. The. Mister chairman I'm not sure know how to work. I'm not technically savvy but which might be used or on your Mike you put it down to your laptop of this plane off the laptop. Four years ago voters approved casinos in Arkansas creating jobs. Our This section twelve Arkansas Casey don't sign a petition to take direct. So. Yeah. Of there also were four years ago there also were mail pieces and mail pieces were sent to thousands and thousands of people especially in key counties that would come in to say first of all Polk County was polled go back to and and they do in fact support the casino and and and Russellville and they're excited about the jobs in their excited about the provider and and then also just so you know when you are approached here's what you're actually being asked to do don't sign the the petition and it was extremely effective you can see the difference between fair plays numbers in various counties where these mail pieces went out and say the marijuana signature gatherers now of course a lot of people actually wanted marijuana and the people actually didn't want to kill one of the casino licenses but that was that that the the mail pieces were very effective. David couch a local attorney with extensive experience in the air Constitutional amendments was higher I looked when I was Attorney General I honestly should have been paid extra just a battle capture every couple of years with whatever amendment idea that he had coming he actually sued me more than once but I came to respect very much that there's truly no single person in the in the state with more direct experience in amending the constitution of the constitution and he had the best connections to the signature gathering out fits all over the country and frankly we definitely wanted to hire them before Mr Burris got a you know if you can get some of the best that have the most experience in Arkansas know what they're doing and so we want to hire you and will pay you to work for us and not to work for them there's not a single law that one could pass to prevent that I will defer to Mister counts here in a minute when it comes up to speak on this Jacobi issue but I've never met Mr Jacoby I don't know Mr Jacoby I don't know anything about Mr Jacoby but I believe that Mr Kobe is a very experienced signature gathering consultant and that he probably has been accused of if not convicted of crime somewhere I would be concerned about that except for the fact that Mr Jacoby never came to Arkansas to do one thing on this on this this program I'm not able to testify beyond here so you'll have to ask Mr couch but our understanding at the time was that fair play Mr Jacoby called said that fair play was offering him a gazillion dollars to come to Arkansas and save their failing effort and four six hundred and fifty thousand dollars which is what his share of the contract would have been he just not come that's an awfully big fees to pay somebody not to work in Arkansas but and I don't know if they were actually trying to hire and it certainly spoken about him like he's a pretty bad guy so I'm sure that they would not have actually done business with someone like that but we paid it and he never set foot here but the only thing any crimes that he's accused of an Arkansas any allegations that he's done something improper any allegations that he acted at our behest or direction or somehow with our blessing is simply not true because the man was only paid to do nothing and stay away that's it now. We knew the blitz canvassing was going to have an aggressive staff we knew they were going to have a lot of people on the ground and we monitored their canvassing registration we noted day that they were improperly doing background checks they never did I don't believe properly perform the background checks as required by law we were building our lawsuit throughout the entire summer to litigate against them if they got their signatures if they have their signatures we were noting every violation of the law that we could possibly determine and they were running a lot they're canvassers would have been the tip of the spear in litigation had they actually secured their signatures. The legislature has passed a lot of laws dealing with canvassers you've talked about a lot of it today the legislature has of one law that says you can't hire canvassers who are not citizens or residents of the state of Arkansas you have another one that prohibits paying canvassers by the signature because that creates an incentive to put signatures on the page at any cost. Companies like blips have found their way around that they're huge bonuses tied signature counts that may not trickle down to the person in a hundred degree parking lot but it certainly creates dollars for signatures as an incentive and compensation and as a result the incentives are to misrepresent the ballot measure fair plays measure if it had gotten on the ballot would have required a statewide election to revoke the Polk County casino license there's a lot of legal problems with their measure and I if you want me to get into it I'll answer questions about it but that's what it basically says however we documented hundreds of accounts of their canvassers straight up lying to voters as senator Ervin said earlier you can tell and I know what they're talking about they either didn't know or didn't care that what they were saying to voters that they were approaching was absolutely not true and had nothing to do with what it was you were putting your signature on a plate of page four I presume Mr Pollard will be back up here and I think it's fair and appropriate for this committee to ask who train these people who supervise these people how was it that over and over and over again they directly misrepresented what they were talking about the ones that we've been categorized and have files on was hello Sir this this isn't for or against a casino this is just to move it we want to relocate that casino out of Polk County we're going to put it when Pulaski County they always said Pulaski County. They get more signatures and Little Rock if if they suggested that you were going to move it from Pulaski to Little Rock it's just going to be a local option Alexion the people of hope county need a right to decide and this isn't going to be a statewide election it's just for the people in Polk County and you know it's actually not going to change the casino in Polk County at all it's just going to give the people of Polk County the right to decide who runs it. These clips or maybe twenty or thirty seconds long and they're not the greatest All of the but you have. People walking up with their cell phone or with their video camera on or the recorder and I'd like to show you two or three clips to reflect what they're canvassers were saying to voters. Juxtaposed it with the idea of their highest and take the training. Well I really teed up that exhibit if I don't I'm not able to play at. Is it only as of the wrong. Play I come. All right well in the interest of time we'll figure out the the exhibits and and play them for you in a minute when we get it let me do that and make this suggestion go ahead and keep talking I will if you're able to get you to just hit it I don't think we will I think that somehow it's been stored on this without those videos incorporated some hoping somebody back at the office is watching this email it to us or something okay When I say that these are five explicit videos I'm happy to share them with you where they said exactly what I just told you no Sir we just want to move it if you just sign here it's just going to move it I don't know where it's going to move to just maybe Pulaski County you know it had nothing to do with what was actually on there. So if they work properly registering their canvassers they weren't properly performing background checks there canvassers were habitually misrepresenting what they were doing they found their way around the dollars for signature would it surprise you that they also didn't worry nearly as much as we heard Mr Pollard say about the criminal backgrounds of their employees or the residency of their their managers and key people it shouldn't up because in reality it did. About Mr Julian. So allow me to introduce you to Arnold Julian Mr Julian who even though he is Facebook is in Arabic that's him and he says we're hiring and looking for canvassers to help us get something on the ballot you must be a northwest you must be an Arkansas resident. The fuzzy part says they're paying thirty dollars an hour for canvassers by the way that went way up as they became a little more desperate towards the end Next slide here is with his crew in Northwest Arkansas in a working a parking lot in Rogers Mr Julian was a very active member of their team we saw him all the time we we saw him coming to and fro and directing crews and talking to voters and rounding people up and taking them over here come talk to this guy over here with the clipboard you should you should talk to him please sign this young man's clipboard grabbing them there's a picture of his foot and I said well why in the world is a picture of his foot relevant what do I care about his foot and our private investigator so well that's his foot because he's having to get into that car because he can't drive himself because he doesn't have a valid driver's license and why does he have a valid driver's license well because he lives in Illinois and he is a multiple convicted felon is other social media when he's not advertising for new canvassers says north side power Arnold Julian I've been to prison eleven times I didn't really know if that was true or eleven times seem to be an exaggeration but it's not if you look at his criminal background an arrest report for the last thirty years it is extensive it's violent and each one that's highlighted as an actual conviction this is their top manager as far as we can tell in Northwest Arkansas but he never actually registered as a campus or that's true he just ran around parking lots talking to voters and rounding them up to get him to go to someone who was registered as a camp at campus or. This is Sarah Palmer Sarah polder was a very active campus of theirs here in Pulaski County and she worked hard you know we saw her in Walmart parking lots and Best Buy and then off to fresh market and in whole foods she get run off by the manager of a store and she'd be back there the very next day you know rain or a rain or shine. But background check shows that she got Arkansas driver's license the day before she registered as a canvas or and or social media show that she was at the exact same time gathering signatures in Arizona Georgia and Arkansas demonstrating herself to be a resident of all three states we never got around to litigating it so I'm not suggesting that she didn't have a good explanation and she might have been able to justify her Background but it certainly was cause for concern. Now. As I close this up an open for your questions. I want to think about. If they spent four point two million dollars. And at best suggest that two thousand signatures were taken up by someone paying for the and to be clear. I have no knowledge of anybody paying for signature if anybody did pay for signature it was against my legal counsel and professional advice it was not. Unlawful but I agree that's not how we ought to play the game and I completely support center hammers legislation representative wing that that changed the law of the law to say once a person signature is on a petition that is the official government document it is part of the process to amend our constitution and that document ought to be protected completely agree with that but did even if what they say is true to those and they say two thousand I have no way of knowing if that's true I think that sounds high and probably not right but let's just err on the side of of of giving him the benefit of the doubt would that have made a difference in there and in their process. You know towards the end of the summer there's Mr Burris unloading boxes and and going in with their their petitions and according to the Secretary of State they signed an affidavit on July the eighth swearing under oath that they were turning in one hundred and three thousand and ninety six signatures secretary of state did the count on it and said we guys don't even count that right it's ninety nine thousand six sixty eight but that's only off by a few thousand then they went about the business of what secretary of state calls their initial coaling and they in their initial calling they took six thousand seven hundred and thirty four signatures right off the bat they weren't even going to bother to validate them because they were so inadequate from the beginning. Why the Secretary of State uses a cover sheet like this. Of for she a for pages that they simply disregard as facially invalid the minute they look at and the number one reason that fair play Arkansas's pages got code was about halfway down there where it says the campus or was not on the paid canvassers list let's just shoot yourself in the foot you're paying these people to canvass you're paying to get signatures and then you don't bother to properly register them with the secretary of state's office so that no matter how many they turn in the secretary of state refuses to look at them. Well that's what happened another significant because. Of their pages being cold was of kind of next one down there the notary stamp the notary was deficient or manipulated in some way that's improper this is one of their actual pages from their petition that they turned in the notary in the lower right box said that he she notarized on the eighth of March that every signature on that page was true invalid according to the attestation of the signature gather on the left but look at the dates you got six signatures the bottom three happen to be of the eighth of March which is awkward or strange to me because normally you start at the top of the page and then the ones at the top of the page were more than a month after the the page was notarized. But they turned it in anyway they think that the secretary of state was just not going to notice that somebody signed a page a month after it was notarized. They did that for thousands of signatures that all had to be thrown out. So. In the end. They said they turned in a hundred and three thousand the only turned in ninety nine thousand secretary of state refused to even look at the first sixty seven hundred of them so that left him with ninety two thousand signatures to review and for the secretary of state to determine the validity of their of. And at the end of that process they had cold they're not cold it's a term of art sectors to they had invalidated more than thirty thousand of those signatures a third of them were completely false fraudulent invalid or otherwise not usable what would cause that somebody signs Mickey Mouse somebody is sixteen years old somebody that's not a registered voter somebody that's a convicted felon somebody that lives in the state of Texas there are lots of reasons that the secretary of state's office pulls those signatures but they have to hire people to go line by line by line to find this kind of fraud because make no mistake even though they only had sixty two thousand signatures which didn't even get up close to the number they needed for extra time to keep trying. They tried they tried to get the signatures to the secretary of state to get this measure on the ballot it was eventually removed as I said for being facially legally defective but that didn't stop him from trying with a whole bunch of defective signatures and I think we owe the secretary of state John Thurston and his staff a great deal of credit and thanks for the diligence that they went through to keep this kind of thing from happening and I don't speak for my friend and successor Tim Griffin but now that he has a new election integrity unit set up within the AG's office if I were a member of this committee I might be inclined to reach out to general Griffin to ask if this is the kind of election fraud that his office should have some jurisdiction to review. So in closing I certainly welcome your questions this is the first time I have sat under oath in front of this committee in probably ten years and it's good to be back with you I hope that I can answer your questions but. I had no. Actual. There was a cognitive disconnect between what I know about what happened in this campaign last summer and what I heard again in this committee before so I appreciate you inviting me over to address it directly. Thank you members let me give you just a. Snapshot we're trying to get to got eight people signed up on the board as mentioned at the beginning we're gonna go through the members of the committee first day we're gonna go to the non members and will allow ample time for questions but I would ask this it's eleven thirty if you have questions that have already been answered if you would please don't repeat number one number two of a law probably put a limit of two or three questions on each so we get to the board because we still have some witnesses it is not my intent to hold this thing over after lunch and we still have a couple people give testimony appropriation questions and so we're just going to push through and if you all would just hang with I think this is showing to be something of value and we will have a motion at the end of the presentations today so that I should just stick with this will try to push through all right so we're gonna go through the members first as mentioned got eight on the board for Sharaf Senator board. Thank you senator Hammer and Mr McDaniel thank you for being here today thank you for your testimony I appreciate it I just want to say have you repeat one more time so I I understood that that your committee did not pay anybody to commit any crimes so I want one of have you answer that and then secondly what I understood you to say and I want you to affirm or or correct is that your committee did not pay anybody to destroy signatures. We absolutely did not pay anyone to commit any crimes the only complaint that I heard all last year it was from a an office manager or landlord in Fayette bill who said that he was renting space to fair play and that somebody had come in the night and done donuts leaving tire marks in his parking lot and he didn't know if that might be somebody that we could track down and I ask Mr couch to see if you can track it down he said yeah I think that I know who that is and that person was reprimanded I think he was driving even a car that was being provided by the campaign and it was taken away from him and and and there was a strict reminder to be professional courteous you ultimately reflect on all of us and our clients and in unprofessional behaviour will not be tolerated. I cannot sit here and a test I mean you've got that recording I've read that transcript as well and you're going to have the witness to come up to speak I can't attest that nobody was paid to not turn in signatures or or or whatever I I I can't under oath say that I know for a fact that happen I can say under oath that a I didn't approve of it then I don't approve of it now it didn't happen with my knowledge direction or consent and I support the law that makes that of unlawful even though it wasn't unlawful at the time. Representative Bentley. Thank you chairman thank you Mr Dan for being here over here yes ma'am I thank yous okay just real quick questions and Senator board asked a couple questions that I had the first one of that the original ballot initiative did not pass in Polk County is that correct or incorrect you know people Polk County the regional bell is to allow Arkansas. I would say that that's actually one of the videos we have is one of these petitioners telling people had never passed for whatever reason so we need you to sign this petition so you committee that up perfectly it did the measure has only been on the ballot one time that's twenty eighteen for Amendment one hundred it passed there was a local option election that was created by a quorum court ordinance or maybe you're a referred an initiative or both where the people of Polk County said what we want to have a local election of before our county judge quorum court or mayor could select a an operator and all the elected officials said they'd be happy to. And here to the concept of some sort of local polling local election but the court said it's an unconstitutional restriction that only amendment one hundred can govern restrictions on the the discretion of the local elected officials one quick follow up so just to say that initial amend one hundred did not pass in Polk County that was my mission questions no absolutely right the the voters in Polk County rejected amendment one hundred when they were given the opportunity to vote on the state passed it but it's not pass and that was my clarification people public and did not want it so you will acknowledge that there is a vast contentions in that county over casino being there not being there so I just want to bring that up in and set Senator board as mother question so thank you chairman. Representative. Thank you Mr chairman. Back to senator Boyd's question earlier. Was it legal at the time for a group to pay another group to throw signatures away or pay people to stay to not collect. I think that yes yeah it was absolutely legal to say to somebody I want to hire you to stop working for them and start working for me thank you say that whether it's chick-fil-a McDonald's you absolutely can hire somebody to work for you and not the other guy Taking out non competes in those kind of of issues the committee will let the time to throw those signatures away I think it absolutely was I think if somebody said it which whether they were paid are encouraged to do it or not I mean these people were working in hundred degree temperatures on you know on this part in a hot parking lot and if they had five ten twenty signatures and they went home and said I quit throwing the trash there's no penalty whether they just did it on their own or they just didn't go back to work or whether somebody said Hey I'll pay you to come work for me and what you do with those signatures is up to you the Christian foster work for your group she worked she worked for Mr Galateo right so mean I clearly you say you you've read this thousand dollars today and seven hundred week you don't collect another signature I mean every time we have a ballot initiative or something that changed the constitution it always ends up into some immoral or or. Fishy circumstance medical marijuana now it's casinos and I I don't care if there's a casino in Rock in Polk County or not I have no dog in that fight but to pay people. To throw signatures away and and just stay home and not collect signatures to me is is highly unethical and I'm glad we we pass a law which either you agree with but who trained Kristen foster to do this that's not a question I can answer I don't know who can answer David count us in Mr out okay or Mister or miss miss foster they're both here. And they will be up to the table and that representatives Senate right. Thank you Mr. I just I take you through most of the most you testimony about fair play having some maybe some unsavory actions during the process we we currently have laws on the books that would have at could not only address their inefficiencies but also allow you to take that action to court there's is there anything division are in the law that we passed this last session that could address some of the issues that you observed I mean is a Class C. misdemeanor to knowingly misrepresent a a ballot question but Our concern is not so much for having some hourly employee arrested our concern was for utility gathering as much evidence as we could so that if they manage to get their signatures and if they manage to survive a challenge on the ballot title then we would have a litigation challenging a whole lot of evidence to invalidate invalidate their their ability to keep going for a much more litigation minded than actually wanting to see any of those people actually arrested okay so I'll take that there are laws were very sufficient to address some of those issues I think so I mean it's a crime okay and in my will final question is are exhibit C. one is a letter that fair play sent to your organization Mr couch but also carbon copy to you as well It your law firm what what action did you take as as prior Attorney General as somebody as Mr couches you testified as numerous experiences to address our ballot something that I think the state of Arkansas would trust your judgment on us as a former elected a constitutional officer somebody else that continually tries access or ballot. They received this letter did you did what did you do what actions to take I took it seriously I read it I went to our private investigator to who I referenced earlier to say is there any evidence of this is happening do we have any police reports that shows that anyone has punched somebody or run somebody off road you can file a police report on a on being run off the road whether. Whether anyone to actually you know you can track them down or not we we didn't find any evidence of all of this and but none the less I instructed Mr couch I didn't instructing me didn't really work for me but you know he we we both worked on this matter he's a lawyer with a lot more experience in this than I do and so I deferred to him but we made very very clear that. The highest standards are going to be required I'm not saying that Mr Pollard doesn't also embraced that notion despite the evidence that he had awful lot of bad apples in the barrel of his blitz employees in Arkansas but you know the all any employer can do is set a standard set a tone be clear in leadership tell people what you expect of them and when you find violations of it deal with it swiftly and and and quickly and I swear the only thing that I had to deal with last year was donut tires in a parking lot in Fayetteville. I heard a whole lot about a whole lot of other things after they didn't get their signatures since then I've heard nothing but may help but at the time I didn't. President wouldn't. Thank you Mr McDaniel's will you definitively did nine. That you're affiliation with any organization. Any group any person. Did not harass attempt to intimidate threaten or do anything against anyone from the other side. You know represent would I don't think I can answer that in the affirmative the way you describe it because it's so subjective right in in any campaign all of us have had to stand you know in a parking lot next to somebody holding our opponents sign we maybe even had to stand next to our opponent some people find that to be way more uncomfortable than others some people you know can very easily interpret don't vote for this guy or vote against this or this guy can't be trusted. Is this is grass meant I don't know the answer is I never I never directed anyone didn't tolerate anyone any evidence of any criminal misconduct was never brought to my attention not with any evidence supporting it all would not did not and would never allow it knowingly okay so you all were but you were working to do the nine local vote and Polk County after they had defeated are voted against the amendment one hundred you were working to is that people the vote notion the local election no Sir that's not true we were voting to we were working to deny the placement of a statewide constitutional amendment on the ballot to be voted statewide. To repeal the license that the voters of Arkansas had just created and it was again there's some legal deficiencies in it too so we have lots of reasons to say they should not go to the ballot but it was not to prevent a local election in Polk County no Sir thank you Mr chairman. And colleagues I hope you all paying attention today. Because this is exactly one of the reasons that I have always and will always continue to oppose the presence of casinos or any ill gotten gain situations in this state because what you're hearing today is not a complaint against us the legislature what you're hearing today is a warring factor between two casino groups. That are attempting to spend millions of dollars in order that we can have our people to go to these casinos and spend their hard earned money that they have the they have the right to do that but we certainly don't have the right to legalize it and put it out to everyone in school to do homework and this is just a ridiculous that we're we're brand drawn into this we need to make a law we need to have a law of the law that we passed is good. This is ridiculous all right this whole whole thing today thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr McDaniel's that's my opinion only represent Berks. Thank you Mr chairman of the question that I have is regarding ballot question this ballot question committees relates to the principles of the officer when you set up a committee for example obviously somebody's identified as essentially the officer who are they ultimately accountable for the actions of of what happens with that the actions of that committee do we have a law that if you knew or should have known that these things were happening that that principle would be liable or responsible well there be a whole bunch of layers to that honestly as if it's your it to the let's say it's your business and you've got. Jones plumbing supply and you have lots of employees to the extent that you are at the top of the org chart you are of course responsible for your employees in the actions of the company and the liabilities of the company etcetera but then you hire an air conditioning contractor to come and fix the air conditioner there at the at the office and that air conditioner guy does something on your property let's say runs over a customer in the parking lot are you responsible for that not really that's an independent contractor that's done something negligently that you're somewhat protected in that liability structure so to the extent that. The director of the ballot question committee of which I was one and I was not the organizer and I was legal counsel for making sure it's my job to make sure the paperwork all filled out correctly make sure that all contributions are properly accounted for make sure that all expenditures are appropriately accounted for and ultimately yes I think we have a leadership duty for setting standards I would never under any circumstances tolerate anybody. Going out and punching people or running people off the road or even cursing at people or and I just would not tolerate that that's not so quick. But it but I my liable for it in a legal sense probably not of somebody if an employee of one of the contractors did that okay in quick follow up you know we heard we saw the audio transcript about potential payments being made if payments were made is there enough transparency in the finance reporting that we would be able to see where that payment happened what what level of detail is there You said you run six hundred fifty thousand dollar check to keep somebody from coming to Arkansas so it is somewhere else in the financial reporting if these payments happen would it show up and how it or not that may not be the best question to ask me that maybe a better question for Mr couch but I and and honestly I haven't personally run for office and a lot of years but it used to be that on you were statements that you would file with the ethics commission each election cycle you put down. TV campaign paid X. dollars you know new local newspaper paid X. dollars consultant paid why dollars. Hey for many many years the consultant would then also they're in charge of buying the signs and they're in charge of hiring the the door walkers in the door knockers and they're in charge of paying for the things that you hang on door knobs and all of that And so while you have reported the entirety of your campaigns expenditure on that form it's not broken down and line items since then the legislature has done a little better job of saying well it has to be line items whether you buy it or whether somebody else buys but on a ballot question committee I don't think it's that way tomorrow more transparency would be needed required to to have something like that show up on a future report you know it if the legislature wants that I another suggestion I would make to you on how to change those reports Mr verses right about the non monetary contributions on your campaign reports that's all right there on the front page in the summer monetary and non monetary on ballot question committees for whatever reason there's not a line for that on the front page and so you gotta dig. Report after report to see and somebody was really trying to to you know hide money of they they they've they could put a whole bunch and and and and those non monetary contributions and and it never even appear on the front page because you know up to not to say that our dear friends in the press might sometimes take a short cut but every now and again the press just report what they see on that front page that only reflects a part of it so I think improving the forms of the requirements on the forms always a good idea just my last follow up you're the Attorney General currently have the ability to investigate this any alleged malfeasance what happens with these ballot question committee or is it a local law enforcement issue currently I saw ILECs been here I would defer to the AG's office on the scope of their authority for inference since their new election integrity unit is so brand new the Attorney General is office does not have criminal authority directly if they can't or they can't filing information or grand jury indictment without being deputized special that the prosecutor by some local prosecutor I think we have plenty of law enforcement structures in place that if if there there's plenty of authority out there thank you. Sir Clark. General what Daniel. So they had criminals to. I don't know that we had any criminals serve but they definitely did. No it's immaterial to me. Who what who was trying to. Gather petitions who was trying to. Stop petitions from being gathered. Of don't give a rats were in us some of the behavior. And I don't care you know if they hire people for twenty dollars an hour you'll try to harm for thirty and they try to harm back for fifty and you try to harm for a hundred what it does punctuate. Is the fact that the fact that this is the citizens right to amend anything. Is a farce. But how many millions of dollars if we try to change that we your people spend. To tell people that it is that's what it really is. Well there's no doubt there were seven. And a half million dollars spent on a campaign last summer that didn't get a single vote I don't think anybody thinks that's really how our system ought to work and the days of. Two people getting together and say you know what they're automobile law amendment seven says we can amend the constitution I think I'm gonna get some of my friends and family and fellow parishioners and co workers and we're going to sign a petition and we're going to get something on the ballot you're right that doesn't exist anymore part of the reason for that is all of those burdens that the General Assembly has created in the name of of of integrity right you know that the member that call sheet that we had up there I'm familiar with that call sheet and I couldn't comply with all of it and so we've made it so burdensome to get anything on the ballot that the only folks that can do it now or those that can that can finance and one of the great conundrums in my personal opinion this is not on behalf of a client or anybody else but as a former public servant. Nobody's going to spend that money in less. What they're amendment does does exactly what they want. And. You know a good example of that was last year's marijuana Amendment you know it it did exactly what a certain group that we're financing it one I apologize to all my friends who might be listening but. The voters don't have a habit of voting for things that only benefit certain small groups so then the. The temptation is to camouflage the actual effect of an amendment and make it look like it's good for the voters but really very up there in it somewhere what's really behind it and that then brings our Supreme Court in the play and if you if you camouflage it too carefully our supreme court's going to pull it and if you're too transparent about what you're going to do the voters are going to not support so like marijuana and even casinos you have to build in an open of the open ended uncertainty marijuana has been a complicated administrative process but it has been a fair merit based open ended application process and a lot of folks were behind the amendment didn't get licenses and in this case we supported amendment one hundred even though we have absolutely no guarantee or certainty whatsoever of getting a license ever in Polk County but we were willing to compete for it and we did compete for it competed fairly for it and we got it so yeah we're absolutely going to work hard to defend. Do you think wearing T. shirts hats and holding signs all that was done by the petition walkers. no they handed out fliers they they they stood next to people and and it because of a petitioner can walk up to a random stranger in a parking lot one of our campaign workers can walk up to that random stranger in a parking lot the guy says Hey Sir would you please sign my petition here's what it does and then this other person says Sir I'd encourage you not to sign that here's a flyer please go online and see what that see what that at petition actually does it doesn't do with this guy's telling you it does you know you you don't really want to sign that most people are just going to walk off so that's effective blocking in and of itself that is affected blocking and Legoland nothing wrong with it and I would do it myself without being paid but of the again I'm not on one side because most the time I find the way petitions are gathered by any group of is not up to par but in all my questions and judiciary for the other side. Of. We're pretty tough. Predict and I'm sure you probably watched I'm a skeptic. But do you do not that this the things that those witnesses said happened. I don't have any way to know one way or the other when you don't have any way to run a business you know before a state senator eleven run businesses twenty three years old I'm most certainly when there's something wrong on my side have a way to know if I want to know no I'm not a lawyer and so I'm not thinking well there's things I don't want no. But I'm thinking I want to get things right. So it's not true that you can't know well and that wasn't what I was going to say Senator I was going to say that while I don't know personally I completely suspect that. These people out on these parking lots it gets hot tempers got high I I certainly saw evidence that now started who yelled at who first who said get out of here that I can answer yes I have no doubt that it was it was there were a lot of unpleasant competition we're doing a good job of being a lawyer for your side but I think you know. That I don't think that you would just intentionally associate yourself. There be no reason for you to. Okay may be lucrative but it ain't that looked. Okay so I'm not. Trying to charge you but the testimony that I've heard you know the videos etcetera are despicable. And. You know we know your name your address the member how many people are in your house you think that does happen one time. If that happened at all that person should be fire that happened I don't have any debt you know because I I can't I came out of the heart okay I wasn't at all merciful to him I don't have any doubt that it did happen I think if you were watching you should have from the from the temperament of me asking the questions the way they were answered of I don't think a leave in anybody can go back and watch that video it happened. So do you think it does happen one time. I suspect there were a number of occasions where people said things they should well that's not saying things okay this first you got to do the investigation first you got to go deep enough to find out who somebody is what their address is and how many people are in their house and that the in the law that in in common sense that has intention and it doesn't sound like something that would just happen one time if it happens doesn't or you're presuming that that person was actually telling the truth and that they you know I mean anybody can look at somebody and say I know who you are and I know where you live that doesn't mean they actually do I don't know that I have no knowledge of no you're changing because what was actually said is this is your name and this is your address is not what we know where you live this is your address I think this is the number of people in your household everything I heard was exactly what you just said someone said I know where you live and here's where you live in here I I never heard I've never seen or heard a recording or someone addressed someone by their name gave them their address and again if I did if I had any knowledge of that kind of thing at the time it would have been dealt with the termination I don't doubt that I've said the don't think that that you would intentionally so chest yourself what I'm concerned with the behavior not that. Of and the fact that it seems to be and I don't care because I'm don't think other sides innocent. I despise the whole process. But but when it gets to the point that were intentionally. Research and people threatened to the point to try to put fear in them. That's a problem would you agree if it if it's happening absolutely thank you all right Rep. Pilkington representative Pilkington. Thank you chairman and thank you no not the committee let me speak But being that being a representative who takes in part of County this is really important to me because it affects my constituents and I appreciate you being here and taking all these questions. so just so I'm clear on this there was no way in which your organization had a way of reporting bad behavior investigating bad behavior and then file reports I mean you said think about it like a business the most businesses when there's issues like an H. R. issue you have a reporting system you have investigators you to reviews and. None of that was ever done with the organization it just was conversations hated this happen noted happen okay thanks. With there's no documentation of any sort of you have to think about what an organization is you know again I'll defer to Mister caps he's the one that. New these contractors who around the country had some experience in hiring managing and working with people that did this direct campaign work what their organizations did. as independent contractors to keep an eye on monitor. Discipline terminate at cetera you know we we obviously would when we hired anybody we would say we expect you to be professional and be you know just as you would with any contract sure and then so on the six fifty thousand dollars you all paid out if I'm following everything correctly you never got like an itemized bill of where all that money way and I think we've been around a lot but there's just no sort of itemize I think there is one I think it just went to Mr Kobe to stay home I think that was what he would have made yeah from the total contract if he had come to Arkansas and been paid two million dollars two and a half million dollars whatever it was he was going to charge he said my share of it would be about six fifty pay me and I just won't come at all share and so I think that that was I think it was just straight up fee so okay I think and I was as I really appreciate your testimony today as well as the group earlier because I think if I was to write an article today. I would write JPR Review Committee shadows what a can cleat cluster. X. expletive. This ballot process is you know like I was joking with a colleague you know last year I think one of the main campaign slogans was you know democracy is on the line democracies initiate this election. This is not democracy this is sounds like a stopper style black brown shorts running around harassing each other I mean it's it's insane and I think we need to do even more to stop these ballot measures in these ballot questions because clearly it's an unaccountable it's it were hiring criminals on both sides everyone's run amok you know and I think about it I'm gonna tell I mean literally take clips from this meeting and show to cities groups and say I want you guys to understand what a complete catastrophes is why we need to reform this or maybe even completely get away get rid of this process is not every state has this open flow process we have and clearly it is causing massive issue and it's really concerning me because I think we've essentially done is put our constitution up for sale and because of that we brought in so many bad actors into this state should not be here and should not be operating it it really concerns me Massot. Right now what I was kind of like a finals. Welcome if Mister chairman I offer one the thought on that matter one brief one. When I was in the General Assembly I advocated at the time that the only area of campaigning in Arkansas that allows unlimited corporate contributions is ballot question committees. Can't give it to the governor can give it to you and give it to anybody else. But unlimited corporate contributions to ballot question committees it has been in my opinion. eight a difficult thing to manage and you can change that with the stroke of a pen. All right you are the legislator represent Pilkington you want to comment are you good. Your. Okay of we got to on the queue and then we're going to call up missed catch a representative Gramlich you are up. Thank you bye senator Hammer quick question will foster becoming of as well a yes okay so you were the treasure for this organization correct. It. I don't recall I don't member with the actual title was I was I was an organizer lawyer and director it says treasure director then that's probably right the minute you know so you can you know for a fact that no money under Arkansas tourism alliance's used to pay to distressing measures. Was paid by them to destroy signatures no money and use the treasure you and now no I don't know that I would know I I'm again I'm going to defer to Mister counts on what when he was recruiting people who work for fair play to stop working for fair play to come work for Arkansas tourism alliance which is fair in any business of what they did if they were hired at noon with the signatures that they gathered that morning I don't know but I do know that it was my position at the time my position now that even if it wasn't illegal they should turn in their signatures well I I agree I just wanna make sure though you as the treasurer should know what's happening with the money I got you I do know what happened with the money I cannot answer the specific question to that level specificity okay another question I guess I'm I'm just confused why would you hate not why would basis on a six and fifty thousand dollars not come here if you talk about briefly begin just tell me one more time would you pass on not to come here. I was not involved in that transaction at all so I'm I will let you ask Mr couch that but my understanding of it was this man. Even if he does have a sordid history had an extremely successful track record and had many many many canvassers who had been working in other states who were being freed up because the the the canvassing season was coming to an end in places like Michigan and Illinois and whatever and what he had in the case again I have no idea this is true but what he had indicated was that fair play was offering him oodles of money to bring every body he could get Arkansas and save their signature measure things and and and we knew they were on track for these numbers we knew this number was. Ballpark none of this was a real surprise to us if anything their numbers were higher than we thought I mean they just did not have their system together very well as far as we can tell but we certainly didn't want anybody coming in to rescue them at the last minute. one last. One last question I guess. How did you have sixty two thousand how did they get eighty eight thousand you know how they got that math. Yeah I don't have sixty two thousand secretary of state has sixty two thousand okay well do you know how they got eighty eight thousand you have to if their numbers differ from the secretary of state's office you have to ask them but their first number was one oh three and that's with a sworn affidavit under penalty of perjury that they had and they didn't even have that I was just a matter of counting names online. Thank you represent wing. Thank you Mr chair Much of this is been discussed so I'm going to hit the parts and try to attempt a summary here Mr Daniel foresaw thank you for coming and I have no reason to doubt exactly what you said you hold yourself to the highest standard and you hold the people who work for you and with you to the same highest standards part of your defense was the fact that the other side did wrong. but that still doesn't negate the reason for us being here which are very serious accusations that wrong was committed on your side as well I mean we've got multiple accounts and testimony in committee of a serious intimidation not just you know bickering back and forth but serious intimidation we've got the the the Transparency air quotes lack there of on the six hundred and fifty thousand dollar payment we've we haven't even gotten to the arson yet and then I've got again exhibit C. two right here which is some an incredible testimony of people willing to pay money for signatures to be destroyed now you have said that is absolutely wrong but could you And I find myself at both following up on what representative Pilkington said I will represent Wooten said it does feel like Arkansas is the victim of a turf battle between rival gangs. And we're seeing what is happening here with that because there is a lot of money to be made aware there is a lot of money to be made there is a temptation to acquire that money by whatever means possible and I hope for the voters for the citizens who are watching this committee or seeing how this process plays out because this is note worthy what would you at least agree that there is the potential that your side also committed some infractions unknowing to you but it but it could have happened with regard to this very serious testimony that we have all around us anyone who has employees or independent contractors has only so much controlled so there any anyone is ever run a business knows that it's absolutely possible that somebody in their in their organization did something that violates their rules and standards that they would be embarrassed by and the the measures what do you do about it when you find out about it and I was never a single time presented with any information during the course of last summer night is been flowing like water ever since but during last summer when we were in any position to do anything about it other than that cease and desist letter and a couple of phone calls about the the the the tires in the parking lot and then you know and I guess we'll talk about this fire at some point but there was the you know that that kind of trickled up from social media the first I've heard about it was on social media But is it pop if you run a large campaign I mean a really large campaign yeah there there certainly are going to be people that come to work for you that they don't stay longer than you not proud of what they who they were while they were there there's just no way to avoid that to the extent that you made the comment about a turf battle. I mean. Our clients are dealing with the situation that they came into they have followed the rules from day one they they they they supported a constitutional amendment that gave them no guarantees whatsoever that they were ever going to get a casino license they were funding in an amendment that could easily put a competitor in their backyard they were but they did it which is what we're supposed to do right that's kind of how the system's supposed to work is you do what's right for the state whether the you have a guaranteed hook in it or not and that's something that we're losing quickly and they follow the rules they got the license and they've been drug going to court over and over and over again and they keep winning but I keep getting drug in again and and and I and it's not easy for me to encourage patients but I've I've done all I can in the best way to do it is to keep winning but. When a rival casino says if I can't have that license I'm going to go in amend the constitution of a neighboring state so that nobody has it to protect their or their own interests. What else could one do other than than run a campaign to fight that. Thank you for your testimony thank you Sir thank you Mr okay representative wouldn't you've you've got a board hears religion will give a chance ask one question and then I really like it Mr caps to the table okay. Represent would yes. Mr Daniels you up when you come in a moment ago that you would favor some type of campaign limitation contributions to campaigns on the part of corporate individuals or anyone what would that the. Well you know what dollar amount would you put on. You know if I was in the legislature I'd probably start with the same dollar amount subtract Ruben Torres elections okay well how much did your how much did you all spend less time on a moving one hundred your organization I don't remember specifically but it was by several million dollars you know so you all want yes Sir well we now have the amendment so you're coming in here now saying you to favor limiting campaign contributions if you won the election until I've got Mister is back thank you senator representative that's not quite fair I said that I supported that when I was a legislator twenty years ago and I still do that's me personally okay let's do this We should get miscarriage to the to the counter to the table please thank you all thank you Mr chairman members and members while he's coming we're gonna have Mr couch I've got one question for miss foster and then we're gonna try to get the saying on the on the ground. And members Did not want take a lunch break because I'd rather push through and then that way when we get done we can all leave and do have a motion at the end of this so just stick with us Mr coach good morning Sir morning do me a favor just a push button there please if you would Mr caption just state your name title who you feel yet with for the record please Sir David couch I'm an attorney and Little Rock Arkansas thank you Sir do some running please thank you he's always wear from the test or you've got to give the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth of god Sir thank you Sir reschedule or just start often give you an open Mike there you've heard the conversation this morning recommend questions we'll see further members do then we'll move on from there okay sure I'll be I'll be brief I think Mister McDaniel the others of cover most of this rather exhaustively I. And I'd like to agree with representative Pilkington and some of the other representatives that I've heard talk about this process if you. Just your knowledge of the initiative referendum process in Arkansas is what you heard in this committee room today it you would think that is really a bad problem and needs a lot of oversight and there are some issues that can be fixed but I think what that today has done really has discounted the plan that we had to stop the fair play from getting their signatures on the ballot. You know the first thing that we did when. We knew that the Choctaw we're going to contributed heavily and now some to fairplay Arkansas was come up with a plan how can we legally ethically prevent them from gathering their signatures I've known only one other campaign in Arkansas where there was a blocking effort and it was in two thousand and twelve that's when Sheffield Nelson was trying to get the severance tax on frackers past and there was a pretty good blocking effort for that two thousand and twelve. I'm so the first thing that we did when we were approached with this issues we conducted a statewide poll to determine whether or not the people of Arkansas would still support the casino and hope County in addition we polled who is most likely to sign a petition in Arkansas so part of our poll was do we favor casinos are not in the people of Arkansas had voted for it and there still was very House support for the casinos in the state of Arkansas the second part of that poll we used to develop what sort of person is going to be most likely to sign a petition so we as a result of the poll we identified a class of individuals that were most likely to sign a petition. we took that information and you can get it from the secretary of state but I've had it for every year since two thousand and twelve I have a list of every registered voter who actually signed the petition it's a public record in the voter ID number is appended to it so we took that information from those individuals that had actually signed petitions in the past we took the information from our poll and we divide that developed a model person then what we did with that is we actually look at the top seven counties in Arkansas because the vast majority of all the signatures that are collected on a petition come from basically seven counties Pulaski Benton Washington Seling Faulkner Craighead serve at the counties those are the really the seven counties so what we did. As we hired two firms we hired a advertising firm who did digital media and we took the ideal person and we bought from a national organization a list of all of the people who would match that in those seven counties and so what we did is we sent all of those seven all of those people in those seven counties that were more likely than not to sign a petition at three pieces of direct mail and Dustin showed you of those on the screen a few minutes ago in addition to that we did digital advertising so we knew the parameters of the people that we were looking for in those seven counties and every day and every time they opened up their Instagram or Facebook or anything like that they were served one of those ads or similar add to that because. We were trying to get everybody not to sign the petition we were only trying to keep. Eighty nine thousand people eighty one less than eighty nine thousand per people from signed it so what we did to begin with is we had ads really before they even had a big crew in here we had precondition the people in those seven counties to know that when they were asked to sign this petition what was really about so the people work condition preconditioned not to to sign the petition to do away with the casino. the other thing that we did at the same time as we hold Polk County itself because we really wanted noted the residents of Polk County we know they voted against the casino in two thousand eighteen but here we are in two thousand and twenty two what what do the people of hope county think now so we put all the people in Polk County we found that the people in Polk County. Overwhelmingly supported the casino and even the people that didn't support the casino thought that the issue was settled already and they didn't want to do it again course there was you know a third of the people did just a month the casino to begin with so we use that in our messaging and adds that we delivered to to Polk County because that was the big Issuing you heard Mister Sturch talk about it he it was Polk County was picked and by itself along with With the Jefferson and Thank god create garlands counties in in in Crittenden county they got before casinos and so that that is a problem in our amendment and I've talked with some of the members about it before I think that an amendment seven needs to be amended to prohibit you know like you guys when you're in the General Assembly you can't do local legislation so it really is unfair I believe that that you can speak on one county at a time. So what we did we develop ballot messaging and then we did run some print ads and some of the other counties because you'll know that in Arkansas now. Well technically now it's fifty counties then was fifteen county so you know historically I knew which of the counties in the state were the county city were you're most likely to get it and some of the smaller counties you try to get signatures it requires very few signatures for one of those counties to be a qualifying County so about radio ads and print ads in those counties trying to tell those people you know don't sign the petition except you don't you're not required to sign a petition you're not. and so after we did that we hired a company called market enterprises it is listed on the campaign finance report it was a group of about ten to fifteen individuals who primarily were canvassers to begin with but they were of the individuals that we were using to Act as we'll call blockers. so if when you look at the campaign finance reports you see market enterprises that is the that is the company that would actually hired the individuals that were used as blockers we talk about Mr Jacoby. he probably has the largest signature collection firm in the country he has. Thousands of people that you work for him I first met Mr Colby. In Arkansas and I think it was two thousand and sixteen and he was here collected signatures on on for the nursing home the tort reform and then so we collect all of those signatures he did And so I he I have no mark brown the years because I've just this is what I do working with these ballot initiatives and and so mark called me and told me that that. That fair play Arkansas was trying to hire him and trying to hire some other canvassing farms in that you know he thought he he came to Arkansas he could do it now he couldn't. The bill right away this program because you know you change the rules and two thousand and twenty where you had to be a resident of the State of Arkansas you can pay by the signature so that's one of the reasons that this effort and twenty twenty was unsuccessful you handle you didn't have that core group of paid canvassers but Clark was gonna bring people here and when he was nineteen he was the team that this people with a local partners caught up with this program where the petitioner you know encourages someone to sign it but a local person actually has the program and so I was convinced that mark was would come to Arkansas and would do this and could actually collect the signatures needed so I negotiated a fee with mark and we paid him a margin call we never came the state of Arkansas at all his only involvement in this whole issue was that he. Just got paid six or fifty thousand dollars to not come to Arkansas because he was a person that have the ability in my opinion to have gotten it done so the only thing you do is. You know. That that was our plan you know we had blockers we knew the seven counties that they were in based on my past experience I knew the locations where most of the signatures are collected so I inform the blockers you know you need to watch this area and this area in this area if I go to Walmart and because they the signature collector people they run the parking lots at Walmart a lot that's how they get Walmart's got a lot of foot traffic and so you know in Walmart really didn't want people in their parking lots and so what we would do this when one of the people driving around investigating would see someone on behalf of fair play collecting signatures I was get up have these big yellow signs and would stand next to it or they would just go tell the security guard at Walmart you got somebody out there in the parking lot collected signatures in the security are we do it so it was really a simple plan that we did I mean we. We did advertising to precondition people not to sign it we had blockers that went out and stood next to people are and if they got run off the Walmart parking lot happens to. Why my canvassers do L. times so you know the rest that was the plan and to me that was the plan that we executed and that was the plan that was successful now we're there some bad actors I've heard more today than I heard at any point in time. During the campaign any point time during the campaign when. Someone called me and said someone was miss behaving someone wasn't doing rights I would investigate it right then all the circumstances and take whatever actions that we needed to do I mean all of the stuff that we're here now it's stuff that we've learned subsequent to the petition campaign was not something that we. or knew about at times like Mr McDaniel said the only person that I can remember complaining about was the doughnuts in the parking lot. And thank you call me somebody ask about how you get on this. Arkansas tourism alliance the ballot question committee was filed with the ethics commission had my name my number my address on it several people would call anytime they call the big complaint but so it was a court reporters office in northwest Arkansas and he called and said the guy done donuts is parking lot I took his car away from me Tony not putting in a pickup truck and told Austin Clark at the the head of market enterprises to really watch him and that we were not going to tolerate the behavior and I gave the court reporter nummi I have used them before and I and I told him if he had any other problems to call me anybody that ever. Call me with any kind of problems we dealt with that and we dealt with it appropriately and we would not. Tolerate. This behavior that we've heard about today. Two questions Mosharraf with represent wing undergo Senator Russian Board just lit up so we'll just take from a member's first nonmembers second represent when. Thank you Mr chair thank you Mr counts for coming today just want to ask you we this name is kind of come up and you're the person that can answer this question so obviously I have a this exhibit see to hear that I have found particularly disturbing of if you could address that first off did Kristen foster work for you. I work for yes I mean I'm the one that would communicate person I guess taking this you would have been a consultant for Arkansas tourism the last but yes I talked to Kristen and all the time yes and so the claims made the audio that's here we've got a transcript of this there were financial payments that were offered in excess of the six hundred dollar minimum so where are the accounting is for any of those financial payments I believe that market enterprises attempted to collect indeed collect ten ninety nines on some people I don't know if all of them are but that's where they would be this would be reflected in in those things. So that's how we can find out who. Received payments to destroy signatures and not turn in signatures and quit working for the opposition is that correct. All at. I disagree it destroyed signatures but that was made in in this affidavit right here this is the claim made we've well I'm it's may but I don't we didn't pay anybody is stressed signatures I I can tell you how workers I talked a lot of these people myself you know they would call and and we would offer them money to change sides basically we would pay more money to to do to drive around look for other people If bait I can reimbursed on two three occasions arm canvassers set up I have signatures and I've already paid for all in my instructions to those retirement. And so if we hire them. Are my policy or what I tell people was you know if you want to start now we can start paying you for today. I don't care what you do the signatures but if you want to complete your day you can start at eight o'clock in the morning go turn those in so it was really on the. The campus itself to decide what they want to do you have any idea how many signatures never got turned in on people who changed sides. Not I really don't I mean because most of the people that we. Talk to is that I personally talk to we just hired on the spot I don't they did and we try to get a lot of the first thing in the morning so I don't know I just know it can take me they are one final question no with regard to Mister CoV has names come up quite a bit as well do we absolutely know for certain that the six hundred fifty thousand dollars that he was paid he absolutely did nothing at all but I know personally he never came to the state but if you ever have any circuits or anybody working for him or doing anything in his name not at all I I know all of the the people that work with mark and what he did not come here at all he did send a blocker he would he would want to. I actually to be honest we we ought to be honest in the House I actually try to get mark to come here to be the blocker may want to wait too much money to to that so instead of a hired him as a blocker and we decided not to come so he never came here at all zero and nobody working for him came here at a zero thank you Mister you that thank you thank you Mr Senator Rice. The market group that you mention they brought people in from out of state. Yes Sir they they all were from out of state okay the do they have criminal background checks no Sir. Not required they were not required at the time. They are now. You didn't have any allegation gets in me the commitment of state. I'm sorry to hear didn't have any allegations of. Hammer is outside what we which could now. This crew came from Michigan and I know they had been in Arizona and their primary role that they traditionally play was canvassers and. I mean I know Arizona requires background checks so. but I didn't ask for a criminal background check Would you would you want to be associated with the group that was hired people with criminal background. I'm sorry what would you want to be associated with the group that you've hired that has criminal background. Well. I think everyone deserves a second chance but I'm not a murderer or rapist or something like that but you know it you're sure you're you're hired a group that you're not having any Just to do some stuff that they could get out of hand you're not actually question you're paying a Jacoby. Six hundred thousand dollars to stay away it's got a questionable background do you would you say he has some questions background you said you've known him alone to. Im read the article and I have known about marks Those allegations about mark but yeah I didn't harm March them here heard and stay away they were trying to hire him to come here that's what I'm saying that's what that's what you know I use the word used in Committee of all about this thanks. This thanks this process thanks. When you're when you're you don't care somebody got criminal background I don't know what to do or not. You don't care and you want to place my six seven thousand dollars they're coming in in in in not be sleazy I it just it just thanks. Well we wouldn't pay six thousand for him to come here group who approve the six hundred thousand dollars is paid by Cherokee. Entertainer Cherokee Nation businesses reflected on the financial forms is not with the ethics commission problem with process I hope legislation helps but I think we've got. For the things they be checked into thank you. Representative wouldn't thank you Mr chairman Mr out of. Did you study you cannot or will or that you did trying people to go out and contact make contact with these of candidatures to to attempt to persuade them not to collect signatures to do away with is that what you stated. Yes I think that we you trying to go out to try to dissuade these pretty correct that was their job to try to that was their job but yes okay Mr make Daniels dropped all around the question about when he was asked if he was treasurer of your organization and he did he said he didn't know what was his name and signature is his name is shown over here is treasurer slash director so who's in charge down there were you in charge or is dusted mac Daniel and chore will. Does not both were in charge but I was in charge primarily as you were talking more than that my responsibility did what you told it to. So what he's saying or you probably told him to say that since no Sir okay all right and then the next question is what did you spend over twelve thousand dollars roughly two million dollars was spent yes Sir well you all moneys that's a fixed until monies could well that's big money to million Arkansas where I'm from that now that's pretty good amount of money marijuana people spent a million dollars in lost. Well. Lester to hold here is says investigation twelve thousand dollars what what would they investigate sure absolutely so we hired a private investigator who would primarily she would watch out for an hour canvassers you know because he's a private investigator she had the ability because of her license to you know maybe like sit in the parking lot so I know that she said in the parking lot we're fair plays headquarters was quite a bit and watch because we wanted to see the activity was going in and out of that facility because you know we're trying to get an idea of how many petitions they were collected how many signatures they were collected so that we can respond accordingly we're trying to see you know where they were coming from so we could you know send out our people to try to what petitions okay yeah okay know what I heard Mr birthdays nobody nobody said outside of Mr verses House he made that allegation several times ago and I ask I don't know where he lives and our investigator nobody sat outside his house or you stating that with the trip yes yes it to be true. So how did you know that I do I know that because I ask. No I'm not talking about your people how do you know that somebody else to decide what I. What's the difference was that it was somebody from all organization will that's what we get into the roof he she said situation our president is she said that this is what we did do this is what we didn't do okay so why why would you spend in. Twelve thousand dollars a year to go out there if you didn't turn around and try to influence those people you're not denying that you all made effort so you you're accusing them of misrepresentation of the of what the ballot would bill bill about but yet you sent people out to also dissuade them from doing what they were doing. Yes that was what we were doing we were trying to prevent people from signing the petition and and we were trying to persuade their canvassers to come over to my side because one last person collecting signatures is how many more signatures that would be turned intent this is agree with the senator eyes this is a message things we need to get this straightened out so we'll have to put up with folks that are doing that type thing this is this is amazing. Thank you Mr chairman well health representative okay. Thank you Mr chairman thank you for being you Mr couch. So I thought I missed earlier statement added walking take phone calls of our piece of the net server repeated please just let me now but thank you just for the record you are completely against throwing away and destroying ballots are not about signature collection petitions correct. I am one hundred percent certain that signatures. That were collected for not turned in yes I don't doubt that at all you know what I'm asking is do you support. DO not guilty for people to throw away signatures so I think something believing that I'm putting my name on something that's going to be on the ballot sure so you you don't support what was going on with your people of a fine and thrown away these six. Well I would disagree that backed away but as a principal yes I agree I I don't think that it should be appropriate for if I'm a campus or in your voter and you sign this petition which is your right to do yeah I don't think that somebody should be able to go and say Hey I'll give you. Five dollars if you don't turn that in or something like that it used to be a problem in Florida so if you guys are really looking I think they had a problem in Florida still does to pay by signatures and they would actually in Florida. the opponents of a particular measure would actually go pay by signature to by signatures away so if you were a canister you're getting paid five dollars to signature you had a petition at ten signatures on it in Florida they would give you fifty Bucks and but somebody efforts I will give you a hundred Bucks more so yeah I don't think that should be legal you're right one percent we should be careful because a lot of petitions don't get turned in. Because you know people are just lazy sometimes okay so what people in your organization obviously. Did that or the allegation is that you did that and but you're saying though is that there's nothing illegal about what they did is just an ethical but it's not illegal you. Was not only with the time I think you're the bill that senator Hammer that does make it illegal now gadget and I agree okay. And then obviously you you brought up that there are issues with this processing going on Are there any ballot referendums are currently working on what you're seeing these issues and can you can let it all right you're not working on it right now okay and then of Arkansas okay and you mentioned polling earlier is there any way that the committee could get a copy of that polling that you mentioned earlier I I'm curious to see motion. I asked the asked my client because technically it belongs to them but what the client wasn't the Cherokee the Cherokee was the welcome that upon that was favorable to the production. service you're the top ones within as that's that's all I can now I know there's other members would like to go on represent Gramlich. Thank you much of so you you said loosely that you interact with Kristen foster a lot and she has a strict transcript and I'm sure we'll speak more about that a moment so obviously XII she's offering money to throw your petitions in the trash and you don't collect another signature correct all of her explain that because I think that let's not that but I do have a question about that he would authorizer to distribute any money at all what I would authorized to hire as a cancer away I mean we didn't like. I'd like to hurt somebody and bother petitions and from what we hired and an individual who was working and what they did with their petitions if they had paid for we instruction current back in that they didn't want to start until tomorrow they could to finish out the day so what do you think that she would say we would be glad to pay a thousand dollars today and seven dollars a week if you don't collection of the signature three petitions in the trash and you don't collected other signature what would you say that. Well number one she said. Will pay to start today don't collect another signature so I think that's a totally appropriate but I think this thing about the traction Aline of talk with miss foster about that you know at I think she's talking about the blank petitions that the lady had in her hand but I'll let Kristin do that because you throw away because I don't I'm not going to pay them. And then they still have always blank petitions and then they would you know go out and collect signatures working for both sides so I see a blank petitions that's just my understanding that so could foster come here and. Now I'm going to wait on her. Senator hammer can miss foster going come up and answer some questions pertain to what we're gonna do if you're if you're finishers I'll have her come briefly they were taking a motion that we get ready because we're about we're about done for the day okay okay I sent one other one other question to the comments when you talk about you did some investigations of round yeah absolutely yeah you know I had that I had The. It. Any time that there was a complaint like when we got the letter you know when I in response to that letter I called Austin I called. And a standard whose are investigator and we want to make sure that nothing was inappropriate we look for police reports you know we did try to figure it out and and so you know if there had been a harassment complaint filed with the Fort Smith police department Clarksville or Ashdown no matter where what we've taken harsh action I'm I would tolerate that I love this process in the use that is correct a second ago right do what you said is corrupt a second ago though right. No I said I think you can see how you would think it was all you heard about it was this. Gang war street five sure one last question this is this is the Little Rock Christy this is sure mereka this is America sure last question this is kinda off topic has come up with the designs for your what we are campaign I the only reason I ask is like you said you Page Kobe six ACT or you Jackie Pitsch Kobe six and fifty thousand dollars and I'm looking at some of a Jacoby's out of work and just very similar like the black and yellow did you like how to get that idea what we had a a public relations advertising firm that did that shop work for a let us look at some of his previous work because it's maybe it's identical I guarantee Clark did not come here at all I I'm going to do that work and seriously did we pay not to come. The Crawford. Thank you Mr chair. Is it true in your opinion. Reality Arkansas is not in the in the nation is not share any Indian nation it's not part of the Cherokee nor the Choctaw is that correct. I don't believe there any tribal lands in the state of Arkansas correct. Would you agree. That Arkansas has been put. In a tribal conflict. We we are not an Indian nation. No ma'am I think both of that the Choctaw nation and the Cherokee Nation they operate concede owes as as private businesses in it I don't think it would be any different if this was Harrison MGM I don't think that I think this is just to businesses they're trying to protect their own businesses you know as we as a Lover of all native Americans which I am I'm a descendant. I think it's time that Arkansas stood. And that we gain the ground back that we've lost. And that is legislators we put an end to this thank you all right let's get to thank you let's get to a Christian foster to the table please and represent Richmond I will come to you okay. Disclosure would you state your name and who you represent for the record please. And Kristin foster I'm here representing myself all right thank you would please stand raise your right hand walk which under oath please. Do you solemnly swear and affirm that the testimony about giving me the truth the whole truth and nothing but trees up gun all right thank you very much I just want to give you a quick open Mike moment of got a couple questions of couple members may have a couple in and represent Richmond committee okay all right go ahead thank you I'm I'm willing to take questions a and I mean I'm just have a resident of the area who has been practicing now and and has seen kind of that transition through our community and so being friend eight it's got involved and offered to B. as in support on the ground there where we live okay the question I have for you is whenever you engaged in offering to pay people for and if I'm misstates of your treatment okay of well first of all did you did you engage in paying people to Purchase order to destroy the signatures are being gathered no Sir I offer people an alternative job basically and it and just locally I was only involved in cook county I wasn't involved in any of the stuff around the rest of the state at the and I offer people another position I'm in that particular transcript that was taken at like seven o'clock in the morning outside of the voting center on primary election day the woman I had spoken with several times before that and explain the process and so she obviously come back to record me and ask me questions again and it was early in the morning no one had signed her petition she was standing there holding them and and so we had the conversation but you know it was if. The way that the program was functioning to my understanding with those canvassers was that if they got signatures they could not get paid until they turn them in if they determine they didn't get paid and that's something that happens commonly in campaigns people get another job they. Just as I don't do this anymore whatever they don't turn in their signatures it's very common and in this case and we already had this conversation several times and it was a big day thing you know there's a lot of voters there voting and so if you if you wanna go ahead and do this today and collect signatures we are not going to pay you for today basically our the I want to say we really not me and I had nothing to do with the payments are in and to your knowledge for those that were paid select I'm working you know maybe I'm working for you all and then the other teams working over here and I've. So the question Grannis okay hold that then I'm on the first letter to Senator asking represent Richmond you have a question you have the motion. Would you let me get to questions away record thank you request two questions first rooms represent Ramage now come to Senator bright and then I'll come to you for the motion go ahead and if we could representative Ramage just. Get to your question quickly you have a quick rear radio podcast host and the did you ever talk about the ballot initiative absolutely where did the Cherokee pay you I was never paid for that I wish I did know I was paid with David for this specific piece of the blocking campaign but as far as the the staff I said on air or through our show to talk about the issue that was going on in procuring I was never paid for that my Cherokee okay let on I guess not directly no I was never paid I mean I I was paid by local news organ like a new station but that's completely unaffiliated that was all just and and you are paid by Arkansas tourism wants to do any no no that's none of that okay and then I guess I get I guess at the cash generation I'm sorry Senator Bryant. Thank you Mr so who who wrote checks to you for your for your activity and and David van Nuys nineteen wide X. would you yeah. Out of the personal accounts throughout of a business name or. I wrote. Paper checks I'm sorry I forgot I turned in reimbursements through for things I had had to do to catch up yes I guess I did it's been a while I think it to get to the project they were through David yeah so how many how many canvassers took your offer many those are working for the opposing side took your offer for relief I think for maybe or I'm not certain because once I have a conversation with them I connected them with David and I was pretty much done with it from there okay so Mr counts when you receive those names how did they receive payment. I'm I have written checks to some but my practice was to try to get market enterprises to take them into his fold market enterprises it's it's on the. Ballot quite it's on the financial statements market market M. A. R. G. U. ETT enterprises it was the person that we've been talking about that came in from out of state brought people and so a lot of these people were paid through him. Okay all right thank you Mr. Do you know if those people that you paid reported that because they were technically working for the other people do you know if they reported that as income or do you know how that money was traced as far as what they were paid. I would have no way to know how they hang their income reporting Mr Kass I'm not sure you F.. Market enterprises ten ninety nine is that the people is that what you're asking me or I mean I market enterprises were paid a certain amount of money I really don't know the answer you know how much money was involved as far as what was paid to those whose sure you can see is reflected on the on that okay Sir going representative Richmond. Thank you Mr I move that this committee request that the attorney general's office the prosecutor The prosecutor coordinator's office the Arkansas state police and the state board of election commissioners conduct any necessary investigation and take any necessary criminal or civil action including without limitation a referral to local prosecutors if warranted regarding the actions identified in this meeting including without limitation the destruction of petitions conversations with canvassers or any other kind of determined to be inappropriate also moved that these four entities provide a status report on their investigation by September first twenty twenty three. I have a second. Okay and I want to point clarification is it your intent in that representative Richmond into the second that that would also include a review of the accusations regarding the arson that was referenced today. Okay noted for the record is my question on it was his intention does those a second of June agree or disagree with that. Concur okay any questions to the motion. A discussion. All favor say aye. Many opposed so moved any other. The representative when did you have something. Represent when thank you. I also have a motion I'd like to present as well it is not in anyway conflict with the previous motion go ahead I would I have personally thank the committee for shining a light on this issue for democracy to thrive the only intimidation that should be allowed is a well articulated argument and that is it and we have seen examples agree justly so of of the other taking place so I would ask for motion to authorize BLR to work with the ethics commission to develop research to guide our legislature moving forward and also to ask bill or to work with the racing commission to address potentially harmful actions by any licensees. You're the motions are second okay got a motion seconded me favor if you've got that would you please provide that in writing to the staff will of any any questions or discussion to the motion. recognized question of senator sh Sullivan. So it will that investigation determined what it means to intimidate. And that's a mighty broad term and we're if we as a legislature we're gonna make laws about what intimidation is or isn't. No that's it the purposes I'm not a the chair's gonna allow representative when chancellor question you to back and forth politely yeah I know the wording of the motion is just I assume you talk about the second part of the gross the racing commission I just to address potentially harmful actions is just merely research to provide information to us that we can do with that information what we will okay thank you good any other questions discussion. Senator adoption light up your micro quick please all right here in no other discussion questions all in favor of the motion say aye opposed members one of the things that passes one of the things that this was intended to do today was put light on signature gathering there is an effort that is currently underway with regards to signature gathering regarding learns Act and to make sure that the public is fully aware of all aspects that I wanted to first senator Dotson for a couple minutes he passed a bill taken from fifteen to fifty County center Dotson would you just highlight that the couple minutes please so the public can be aware of that thank you. Go ahead of thank you Mr chair really it's I think you you basically hit on it the the highlight of it it it basically takes that number two thirty six of this regular session and it takes the minimum number of counties that signatures have to be gathered out of from fifteen to fifty five zero counties so two thirds of the counties in the state would have to collect at least one half of the designated percentage of the electors of each county that would be representative of the the total number of signatures needed it doesn't increase the total overall number of signatures needed for referendum or initiative or a constitutional amendment signature gathering. I think that's. That's it in a nutshell all right thank you they for legislation we just want to citizens to be aware of the conversation today when it comes to the gathering of signatures just be fully where the purpose of meeting today also want to go back before we adjourn and just make a note that in the motion was made by US representative Richmond while ago that it simply requires to provide a status report not a complete report by September first as co chair and I work together to coordinate that when we have a a regular scheduled meeting of JPR and what we'll do is ask for that status report for not meeting and they have it ready by September first to be sent out to the committee members any other have no other business come before the committee appreciate your ability to stand through will stay through and thank for workday with that we are joined.