House Public Health, Welfare and Labor Committee Part 1
Video
Transcript
Bills discussed (8)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
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SB598
· 4 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “SB598”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB1485
· 3 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “HB1485”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB1486
· 3 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “HB1486”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB1935
· 3 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “HB1935”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB2160
· 3 mentions in transcript, chapter
Matched: “Viviano here, representing to Viviano, House Bill 2160, 2160. Thank you, Madam Chair. Bill 2160”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB2186
· 3 mentions in chapter, transcript
Matched: “HB2186”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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SB386
· 3 mentions in transcript, chapter
Matched: “386? Absolutely. You may present. Members, it is Senate Bill 386. I believe it's David Johnson is a Senate sponsor on that,…”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB598
· 1 mention in transcript
Matched: “…ur pass your bill. We'll now recognize Vice Chair Woods for House Bill 598. Excuse me. Thank”
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Pre-2017 bill |
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If you will go ahead and take your seats, please. I didn't realize the time had gotten away from us. The chair sees a quorum. We'll call the meeting to order a couple of housekeeping items, if you will. We do have lunch brought in today, and we'll be thanks to Nancy Elfingstone with Home Care Association of Arkansas, the Home Health Agencies, the Infusion Therapy Company, and the Medical Equipment Companies. And I'm sure once we get through with having a lot of hard work today, we'll enjoy that lunch and we'll work through lunch.
But we appreciate them taking care of us. We are going to do some, and I've talked with Representative Mayberry about this. We're going to spend a few minutes trying to get a few bills out this morning that are to be non-controversial. and we'll use the same kind of guidelines we followed last time. If we see that we get a lot of questions, then we'll consider that to be controversial and we will set aside that bill for now and get that back on the agenda after the special order.
Without objection, we'll do that. Representative Mayberry, you're recognized. Can we
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
1:17
assume mine is non-controversial as well,
ma'am? Representative Mayberry, if there would be no questions and no witnesses, I guess we could. Then I withdraw the question. All right. All right, we'll start with Representative Summers believes he has worked his bill well enough that it's non-controversial, and it's House Bill 1935.
Representative Summers, you are recognized. Thank
Representative Tim Summers
Unverified
1:43
you, Madam Chair. Tim Summers, State Representative, District 99. I had mentioned last time that I'm the director of nonprofit drug and alcohol rehab. We, as well as six other centers in the state, have detox centers. Currently, we're supervised by the Department of Health. This bill simply transfers supervision from the Department of Health to the Division of Behavioral Health Science, which is where we should be. That controls every other aspect of what we do.
And I think I answered the question we had the other day, and I'd ask for a good vote. I've got a book of witnesses if you need them, but
I don't think you do. Motion. Committee, any questions? Seeing no questions,
what's your pleasure? I have a motion due pass. Anyone in the audience who wishes to speak against the bill? Anyone in the audience who wishes to speak for the bill? If not, the question before the committee is due pass of House Bill 1935.
All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no. Representative Summers, you were right. Congratulations on your pass your bill. We'll now recognize Vice Chair Woods for House Bill 598. Excuse me. Thank
you. Senate Bill 598. Keep me straight, everybody.
It's a non-controversial bill. Representative Penoritz, I'm not sure. It's Senator
Dismang's bill. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, committee members. Senator Dismay contacted me late last night and asked me if I would run this this morning. So I appreciate Madam Chair for letting me run this real quick. I do have Karen Tyranny with the Arkansas Securities Department that's here to help answer any questions.
But Senate Bill 598 contains amendments to the Cemetery Act for perpetually maintained cemeteries. Many of the provisions make technical or clarifying changes in an effort to provide clear guidance to the care of cemeteries regulated under this act. Some of the other changes are more than technical but believed to be non-controversial. The Arkansas Cemetery Board has received no negative comments regarding this bill. And Karen, who as part of her duties as staff attorney with the Securities Department, assists the Arkansas Cemetery Board.
And I'll be glad to take any questions the committee might have.
Committee, seeing no questions, what's your pleasure? Motion.
We have a motion due passed. Representative Letting, anyone in the audience who wishes to speak against the bill? Anyone in the audience who wishes to speak for the bill? If not, the question before the committee is due passed, the Senate Bill 598. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no. Vice Chair Woods, you've passed Senator Dismang's bill.
House Bill 1485 with Representative McLean, if you will take your place at the end of the table, please, and introduce your bill.
Representative James McLean
Unverified
5:21
1485. Thank you, Madam Chair and committee members. This is a bill that concerns laws that govern embalmers, funeral directors, and funeral home establishments. Madam Chair, I have with me Ms. Rachel McGrew, who is the Secretary of the Arkansas Embalmers
and Funeral Directors Board, also the Arkansas Burial Association, and she is here to answer any questions, and with your permission, fully explain the bill
to the committee. Ms. McGrew, would you introduce yourself, please, for the record, and whom you represent,
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
5:49
and go ahead and present. Yes, my name is Rachel McGrew, and I'm the Executive Secretary for the Arkansas State Board
Speaker 29
5:55
of Embalmers and Funeral Directors, as well as the Arkansas Burial Association Board. The bill you have before you today basically just cleans up some language in the bill and clarifies renewal dates for all licenses. There had been some gray areas between the renewal
date and the penalty phase, when the penalties kicked in, and that's all been clarified in this bill, and it's been discussed thoroughly with the members, all licensees, and there's been no objections to this. Representative
Speaker 31
6:25
Lee, you're recognized. One question doesn't make it non-controversial, does it? Yay. The fee was agreed upon by all the parties involved, correct? We're not – the
Speaker 29
6:33
fees are existing. We're just clarifying when they would kick in. They've been the same for years. Oh, you added a delinquency fee.
No, it is – it's there. We're just making – clarifying when that delinquency fee – Okay. I'm sorry. The only
Representative James McLean
Unverified
6:46
thing that's changing is the date. Yeah, the fees are – the fees have existed for years. Please excuse me. Okay. misread that thank you representative Allen
you're recognized motion at the appropriate time seeing no further questions representative Allen through Paris we have a motion do pass anyone in the audience who wishes to speak
against the bill anyone in the audience who wishes to speak for the bill not in the question I assume representing McLean you're close for your bill I'm Opposed, Madam Chair. Then the question before the House is – the motion is do pass House Bill 1485. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no. Representative McClain, you've passed your bill. Thank you, Madam Chair and Committee. Representative McClain has a second non-controversial bill, and that is House Bill 1486, and that
can be found in your packet. You are recognized to proceed. Thank
Representative James McLean
Unverified
7:48
you, Madam Chair and Committee. bill 1486 is another bill that essentially deals with technical changes in clean up language to burial associations and mr. McGrew will also speak to this bill with the permission of the chair and the committee representing McLean I apologize I was doing two
things at one time which is not sometimes I have trouble doing one thing at one time so I'm sure too if you
would please recognize yourself for the record and proceed Rachel McGrew
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
8:21
executive secretary with the Arkansas Barrel Association board this bill as well is just cleans up some language and also clarifies
Speaker 29
8:28
additional reports that the board has required for several years policy wise but just now codifies it so it's a very clear
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
8:38
what reports have to be filed Representative Lovell, you're
recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
8:48
Actually, I wanted to ask a question after Representative Lee on the last bill, but this one kind of brings up the same question. But on page 3, line 32 and 33, has similar language that 1485 had, and it says that a burial association or society who's reported delinquent is subject to a financial penalty established by the rule of the board. Now, I think the answer on the last one was that the fees stay the same,
but I did not see anywhere in that bill that the fees were established, nor do I see any that are established here. Is it just strictly at the discretion of the board? No, sir. They're
Speaker 29
9:32
established in rule, and they are the same and have been for several years. they are not
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
10:00
changing well yeah I see where they deleted the application fees and put the application
fee back in but I don't still don't see the penalty established so But anyway, thank you, Madam Chair.
Representative Pinnartz. I'm a little – I was reading this also, and I don't have a problem with most of it. There is one question, page 2, line 15 through 19, and then 23. Basically, it looks like that if a person is qualified, they don't have to – and they're given a certificate of authority they don't have to pay $500 but yet in the
above paragraph I'm a little confused about what you're doing there you're seeing applicants application fee is determined by the rule of the board and then in satisfy me that what you're doing there
Speaker 29
10:56
okay there has not been a barrel association established as long as I have been with the board which is since 1991. No one anticipates one would be established, and frankly, no one wants one to be established.
But if someone was interested in doing that, the existing rules or the existing language about how they would do that was provide the board with all this information, and the fee had been $500, at which point they would be able to establish an association and draw on a guarantee fund that was established back in 1995 and the board did not think that was fair and so they are looking
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
11:38
at trying to establish new rules if someone wanted to establish a barrel
association so is that what you mean by lines 18 and 19 where you say the deposit required shall not exceed $10,000 yes that is correct okay I understand now
that was a little confusing thank you committee
any other questions what's the pleasure of the committee
we have a motion do pass anyone in the audience wishing to speak against the bill anyone
in the audience week wishing to speak for the bill if not then the question before the half before the committee is the passage of House bill 1486 all in favor indicate by saying aye all opposed no representative mclean you
passed your bill thank you madam chair thank you committee if you would take over for 2186 i mean
Speaker 66
12:39
yeah 2186 and if they have time said 386
I believe we're going to look at House Bill 2186. Okay, you may present your bill when you're ready. Thank you. And
I think I have someone here from the State Board of Pharmacy to assist me.
Pharmacy Association, thank you. Yes, committee, we're going to be looking at House Bill 2186, and it is a bill that cleans up the board of pharmacy. So with your permission, Vice Chair, I will ask my guest to introduce himself and present the bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, committee. My
Scott Pace
Unverified
13:47
name is Scott Pace with the Arkansas Pharmacists Association, And this bill does just two very quick things.
Speaker 74
13:54
It deletes the old language of drug business and inserts practice of pharmacy to make who serves on the board more relevant with today's current terms. And it codifies a longstanding practice that the Pharmacist Association has had with the governor's office through many administrations to where the appointments to the Board of Pharmacy for pharmacists are made upon the advice and recommendation of the Arkansas Pharmacist
Association. Thank you, Scott. Are there any questions from the committee at this time? Okay, I do see a motion at the proper time.
Representative Wagner, you're recognized with the question.
Representative Charolette Wagner
Unverified
14:32
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry, I just couldn't hear you. Did you say that you already had been advising and recommending? Yes, Representative. This just codifies a longstanding practice that's
Speaker 74
14:42
been going on for a number of years in the state. Okay, thank you. Thank you,
Mr. Chair. Thank you, Representative Wagner. Is there another question from, I thought I might have saw another hand. Are there any other questions from the committee at this time? Is there anyone here in the audience who would like to speak for the bill, against the bill? Representative Allen, you're recognized. I have a motion due pass. All in favor say aye. Aye. Those opposed, ayes have it. Congratulations, Madam Chair. Your bill is passed.
Mr. Chair, with the Chair's permission, may I present Senate Bill
386? Absolutely. You may present. Members, it is Senate Bill 386. I believe it's David Johnson is a Senate sponsor on that, I believe. Senate Bill 386. I'm going to give the committee just a moment here. She's going to read.
All right. Thank you, Madam Chair. You may present
Chantel Bisbee
Unverified
15:49
your bill when you're ready. MS. Members of the committee, I'll go ahead
Robert Breck
Unverified
15:55
and introduce my guests, then I'll present the bill.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Robert Breck with the Arkansas Department of Health. MS. Senate Bill 386 concerns the scheduling of controlled substances by the director of the Department of Health. It allows the director to add, delete, or reschedule a substance by emergency rule.
This would not require any action or approval by the Board of Health, and it may not be in place for more than 180 days. There's no fiscal impact on the state, and this will help alleviate such problems as we've had over the last year for the scheduling of substances such as K2 or the spice and bath salts that we've heard a little bit about during this session. And we have law enforcement who's in favor of this and the prosecuting attorneys associations in favor of this. We'll take any questions you might have.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I do see a motion, but I'd like to recognize Representative Mayberry with a question.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
16:59
This is – the emergency rule may be effective for no longer than 180 days is the way I read this, but then it says, except as provided, the rule may be effective for no longer than 120 days. Can you, I'm looking at page two, line one regarding the 180 days and then lines five
Speaker 92
17:20
through six. Under the Arkansas Administrative
Robert Breck
Unverified
17:25
Procedure Act, an emergency rule typically is good for 120 days. What this would do would extend that to 180 days because of, you know, we want to make Make sure there's no lapse between the emergency rule and the regular rulemaking process. What this section you're looking at, what that does, that modifies the Administrative Procedure Act in Title 25 to make sure that only this type of rule would be good for 180.
All other rules would remain at 120 days.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
17:55
And what happens at the conclusion of that? Well, typically
Robert Breck
Unverified
17:59
what happens during that period, you start the regular rulemaking process, and that takes anywhere from, to be honest, 120 to 180 days to finish that. And if a permanent rule is not put into place, that does go away. Are there any other
questions from the committee at this time?
Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak for the bill, against the bill? Representative Penards, you recognize?
Mr. Chairman, thank you. A motion do pass, sir.
Okay. I do see a motion. All in favor say aye. Those who oppose, ayes have it. Congratulations, Madam Chair. Your bill is passed. Okay.
Viviano here, representing to Viviano, House Bill 2160, 2160. Thank you, Madam Chair. Bill 2160
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
19:20
is just an act to amend the definition of new full-time permanent employees to include employees who work at home. And this is for business incentives programs that we already have in place.
I have with me Morris Jenkins from the Arkansas Development Commission, who will answer any questions and give a further explanation of the bill. Male Speaker 1, Morris Jenkins
Speaker 100
19:50
with AEDC. We've run into some situations where more often companies often don't have their employees work at the place, and in order to count them. MS. Sir, would you get closer to the mic,
please? I'm getting some signals we can't hear you.
Speaker 100
20:06
MR. Okay. Yes, ma'am. This man says, as Representative Biviano mentioned, the definition of a new full-time permanent employee. Existing law says they have to work at the facility. This changes that law, but it also puts a wage threshold on it. They have to pay at least the current state average wage from the preceding year, which at this point in time is $16.92 an hour. And we've worked with DF&A on the bill, and they're okay with the language. They've helped us with it.
Representative Wardlaw, you're recognized. Motion at
the proper time. Committee, any questions? Representative Penartz, you have a question. Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. What are these financial
Speaker 106
20:56
incentive agreements that you're referring to in this
Speaker 100
21:00
bill? There are several, Representative Panarchs. In 2003, we consolidated incentives into one bill, the Consolidated Incentive Act, and it has a payroll rebate program.
It has our standard job creation tax credit for creating new jobs, tax back. Well, tax back wouldn't be affected here, but those programs that have job creation benefits. MR. That's what I want to
know, because I'm aware of some of the things you all do in there for incentives, but this is sort of a different approach on the new employees who work at a facility other than what we
would call a standard business place, right?
MR. That's correct. MR. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Seeing no further questions, Representative Wardlaw, your motion. Thank you, Madam
Chair. Motion do pass. We have a motion due pass. Anyone in the audience wishes to speak against the bill? Anyone in the audience wishes to speak for the bill? If not, the question before the committee is the passage of House Bill 2160. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no. Representative Viviano, you passed your bill.
Thank you to the committee. Committee now will go to our special order of business. And Representative Mayberry, if you will take your place at the end of the table, and we'll proceed. Okay.
Speaker 107
23:23
Thank you, Madam Chair, and I apologize
State Representative
Unverified
23:34
for the time it took to get set up.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
23:37
My name is State Representative Andy Mayberry. As we discussed, I have a couple of folks here to help me present this bill who are subject matter experts in particular portions pertaining to the bill.
State Representative
Unverified
23:53
With me is Dr. Amidio Michael Novembre, who specializes in obstetric pain management and anesthesia. Has flown
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
24:02
in last evening from North Carolina to testify regarding the pain aspects of this bill. Also is Julie Mayberry, who has recently returned as an invited featured speaker for the Center for Prevention of Birth Defects, sponsored by the Center for Disease Control in Orlando, Florida, who will be testifying regarding some fetal anomaly
aspects of the bill as well and also brings a unique perspective to it. We have some other guests here as well, Dr. Richard Wyatt, an OBGYN with Arkansas Women's Center, Dr. Kim Skelly, a local pediatrician, and we have some others who may have signed up to speak for the bill also. Representative Mayberry, if you
will have your Presenters at the end of the table, introduce themselves for the record, and then we'll go ahead and proceed with your bill.
Speaker 124
24:57
I will do so. Thank you. I'm an anesthesiologist. I specialize in specialty fellowship trained in obstetric anesthesia and pain management. I practice in Elkin, North Carolina. welcome to arkansas sir thank you ma'am and i will also
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
25:26
county as mount airy north carolina which the mayberry show was based on just for the record
State Representative
Unverified
25:34
i i i had strictly coincidence i assure you and my name is julie mayberry
Speaker 130
25:40
welcome ma'am representative mayberry you may proceed thank you madam chair can we have the the screen on please thank you Mr. Price
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
26:18
as i'm sure each of you know our founding fathers stated in the declaration of independence that we know these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal
endowed by their creator endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights and that among these are life liberty in the pursuit of happiness. And please note that the first one mentioned there is that
right to life. And it is reference to those unalienable rights that our founding fathers spoke so eloquently of that brings us here today, the discussion of
the right to life. And more specifically, the right to life of a child, an unborn child in a developmental stage, but a child fully capable of feeling pain to the same degree, if not more so, than
you and I feel pain. I
have to set the stage for you just a little bit on what current Arkansas law is. In 2005, the General Assembly of the state of Arkansas passed and the governor signed into law, Arkansas's Pain-Capable Information Act, and it requires that mothers seeking an abortion past 20 weeks be informed that an unborn child has the physical structures necessary to experience pain and that these unborn children seek to evade certain stimuli
in a manner that in an infant or an adult would be interpreted to be a response to pain. In a few moments, Dr. Novembre will elaborate on the feelings of pain at a child at this developmental
stage. But right now, this is the law. We've established it, that a child feels pain at 20 weeks, and a mother has to be informed of that
fact. Now, because of that, since that was passed, according to statistics from the Arkansas Department of Health, under this law, through the
end of 2009, 848 mothers were informed of this information. Of these, only 241 abortions were performed. Approximately 600 women, when informed of the fact that their child would feel pain, did not follow through with the abortion. Also in Arkansas law, in 2009, the General Assembly passed a ban on the partial birth abortion procedure. This is an extremely
gruesome procedure, and because of the extreme barbaric nature of it, not only do we have a federal law banning it, but it was passed in this body, and some of you, many of you may have been a part of that. However, this is the banning of a particular procedure, and it does not prevent abortions at any other stage of the pregnancy or in late term using any other procedure.
So in essence, it's a great thing that we can pat ourselves on the back and say we prevented one barbaric act, but there are many other procedures that can be used for late-term abortions even in the state of Arkansas. A couple of the procedures that can be used for late-term abortions or methods of abortions after 20 weeks. One includes dilation and evacuation. And this is used to abort unborn children as old as 24 weeks.
In this particular procedure, forceps with sharp metal jaws are used to grasp parts of the developing baby. And keep in mind, this is a baby that is feeling pain just as much as you feel pain, if not more so. Metal jaws used to grasp parts of the developing baby, such as an arm or a leg, and then they are twisted and torn away. And this continues until the child's entire body is removed from the womb. And because the baby's skull has often hardened a bone by this time,
the skull must sometimes be compressed or crushed to facilitate removal. If not carefully removed, sharp edges of the bone may cause cervical laceration and bleeding from the procedure may be profuse. that's one of the alternate procedures that can be used in lieu of a partial birth abortion. Another, and I'm just offering a couple of examples here, but another is salt poisoning. And it is used, this technique can be used
after 16 weeks of the pregnancy when enough fluid has accumulated in the amniotic fluid sac surrounding the baby. In this, a needle is inserted through the mother's abdomen and about a cup of amniotic fluid is
withdrawn and replaced with a solution of concentrated salt. The baby breathes in, swallowing the salt, and is poisoned. The chemical solution also causes painful burning and deterioration of the baby's skin. Usually, after about an hour of burning of a baby that feels pain,
After about an hour, the child dies. The mother goes into labor about 33
to 35 hours after installation and delivers a dead, burned, and shriveled baby. These are some of the other procedures
Speaker 92
32:04
that can be used in lieu of the partial birth abortion procedure, which our
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
32:08
state has banned. Also in Arkansas law is Amendment 68.
It's Amendment 68 of the Arkansas Constitution that states that the policy of Arkansas, the policy of Arkansas, and keep in mind this is voted on by the people, the policy of Arkansas is to protect the life of every unborn child, of every unborn child from conception to birth to the extent permitted by the federal Constitution. We are compelled by our own Constitution to protect unborn life to the extent permitted by the federal Constitution. Now, this particular act, the Pain-Capable Child Protection Act,
is patterned after current Nebraska law that has not been challenged in the courts. It passed the legislature and signed into law in Nebraska in April, went into effect in October. And for those who would claim that there are some constitutionality issues, no one has challenged this in court. Currently, at least six other states have similar legislation pending. including our neighbor to the west, Oklahoma.
Oklahoma, last week, they're a few days ahead of us with this particular legislation, and it went to their House floor last week after clearing their House committee, and on the House floor it passed 94 to 2. That's not a partisan vote. That's not a political vote. That's 94 to 2, 94 representatives in Oklahoma who understood that you don't kill a baby, especially one who's in agony through the process.
Missouri has some similar legislation, not exactly the same, but similar, that is pending as well. So our neighbor to the north, and it just passed their house floor yesterday, 120 to 37. The Pain-Capable Child Protection Act is sound legislation that I firmly believe will withstand constitutional scrutiny. Our
moral conviction and Amendment 68 compel us to pass it.
In the Bible, the book of Jeremiah, chapter 30, verse 19, It says, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. And then it tells us what to do. It says,
therefore, choose life, that thou and thy seed may live.
so why do we need this law well these babies are babies they're just that they're just little by 10 weeks
there's feet and hands perfectly shaped and formed 12 weeks all the unborn child's organs are present and functioning and they're experiencing pain fully functioning sensory receptors appear in the skin around the mouth of the unborn child at seven weeks and spread to all skin and mucus surfaces before 20 weeks of gestation.
As presented to the U.S. Department of Justice, and this is from Dr. Anand who used to be at UAMS, widely regarded scientist in this area, he's now the critical care director at Le Bonheur Children's Hospital, says multiple lines of scientific evidence converge to support the conclusion that the human fetus can experience pain from 20 weeks of gestation and possibly as early as 16 weeks of gestation. This is information we've already heard, learned, the General Assembly has accepted and has been put into Arkansas Code. In the third trimester, from the seventh month until the term, baby increases in length from
13 to 20 inches. They can hear and they experience pain. So why do women seek abortions? Actually, just for a moment, let me break here and let me have, if I could,
Dr. Novembre speak a little bit more to
Speaker 124
36:47
committee members, thank you for the privilege of being able to testify
this committee on the topic of fetal pain. As I stated before, I'm Dr. Amidio Michael Novembre. I have an undergraduate degree in chemistry. I'm a physician. I performed an internship in internal medicine. I completed a residency in anesthesiology and fellowship a fellowship specialty training in obstetric anesthesia and pain management at the University
of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey. It's not a North Carolina accent, I know. I am board certified in anesthesiology, and I have board certification and added qualification in pain management. I'm also an assistant clinical associate professor at the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine of Virginia Tech.
Since graduating medical school, I personally have anesthetized over 15,000 patients, which which included neonates, the newborn, and I've also attended to and provided either general epidural or spinal anesthesia and analgesia for over 5,000 obstetric deliveries. I've also treated over 10,000 chronic pain patients.
Pain is defined as an unpleasant sensation and emotional experience, usually secondary to tissue damage. Studies show that from 18 weeks of gestation, the fetus responds to painful stimulus with a sharp rise in stress hormones that are seen in adults. Cortisol rises have been detected, which is the stress hormone.
The physiologic stress response is objective evidence, objective scientific evidence of the presence of fetal pain. Ultrasound findings show fetal movements such as recoiling in response to uteropunctures. Electroencephalography, EEG, brain waves, measures brain activity.
Brain activity is seen in the fetus at 19 to 20 weeks of gestational age. In the fetus by 20 weeks gestation, pain receptors, we term them noceo receptors, have appeared throughout the body. Second order neurons in the spinal cord begin to develop from 10 to 30 weeks gestational age, meaning signals from the periphery, the outside, the skin,
are able to be transmitted through the peripheral nervous system into the spinal cord and up into the thalamus. Cerebral cortex starts to form at about 8 to 10 weeks of gestational age. The number of cortical neurons increases 10 times between 12 to 28 weeks gestational age. The main organ for processing pain is the thalamus. The thalamus is a structure
that's below the cerebral cortex. The cerebral cortex is on the top of the brain, if you've ever seen pictures of the brain, in the middle of the brain, lying on top of the spinal cord, structures called the midbrain, and that is connected to the thalamus and also the reticular activating system. This whole system is where we process pain and we also have a consciousness.
And this is before the cerebral cortex is formed. During the formation of the cerebral cortex, there are some transitional anatomic structures that are specific for the fetus that perform the function of processing the pain prior to the complete formation of the cortex. This is termed the subcortical plate. The subcortical plate starts as early as 16 weeks, and connections between the thalamus and the subcortical plate are developed by 20 weeks.
So by 20 weeks, again, there is enough anatomic structures developed, and there is physiology on-going physiology that allows the transmission of pain from the periphery to the central encephalon, which is the thalamus and the thalamic reticular system and the subcortical plate. So, transmission of what's missing in the fetus is the descending pathways and
endogenous pathways. What these are, when you experience pain, you'll get a sharp rise in pain, and then it'll start to recede. What is happening is, when the pain sends up a signal to the brain, the brain actually sends down a signal to release neurotransmitters, such as endorphins, everybody is familiar with what an endorphin is, that actually retard the pain. And this is my area of expertise, because most patients that come to me have
pathology in their descending inhibitory systems, meaning that even after the broken arm healing heals or the surgery, the incision from the surgery is healed, they still experience pain. What's going on with these patients is their pain is, it continues past the point of injury. Most people think of pain as a symptom of some injury, but pain itself becomes an entity into itself when it persists. And the reason I go into this is because the descending pathways
are not established in the fetus, so that the fetus actually is experiencing more pain than an adult with a normal descending pain weight pathway. So as the representative was saying that a hypertonic saline solution is going to cause a chemical burn as well as, I mean, the best thing swallowing would be like you swallowing lye and being chemically burned all over your body, the fetus is going to experience an
excruciating amount of pain. And in similar fashion, if they're being dismembered in utero at 20 weeks, they're going to feel it, they're going to experience it, they're processing it, and they don't even have the safeguard mechanisms that an adult is to shut it down. So at 20 weeks, the fetus is not in a coma-like state. The fetus experiences pain, is conscious.
It's there for a human being, because it's conscious and aware of the pain. And this all occurs
Speaker 146
45:02
by 20 weeks of gestation. Thank you. Thank you,
Speaker 147
45:07
Dr. Novembre. If we could have the lights again for a moment.
Representative Mayberry, I don't know if Dr. Novembre wants to take questions. We had a hand
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
45:18
up for a question. If it would be possible to complete the presentation and then take questions, I would appreciate that, Madam
Speaker 147
45:39
Chair. Certainly. We asked the question, why do women have abortions?
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
45:42
And let me tell you, first of all, 98.5% of abortions occur prior to 20 weeks. And unfortunately, this bill doesn't
affect any of those. And these are statistics from the Guttmacher Institute from Planned Parenthood. So these shouldn't be statistics that are questioned by opponents of this particular bill. 98.5% occur prior to 20 weeks.
one and a half percent of abortions occur past 20 weeks and so these would be the one and a half percent of abortions that this bill would address so why do women abort at any stage well here's 93 percent of the reasons why according to the same study not ready or the timing is wrong 25 percent they feel they can't afford the baby have completed childbearing single mother relationship problems, feel too young, they're immature, interfere with education or career plans,
less than half percent victim of rape, husband or partner influence less than half a percent, parents influence, don't want people to know of the pregnancy, and then a small percentage of just other miscellaneous. Now, all of those, 93%, are items that are identified well before 20 weeks. and again, I'm not saying I
want any of these abortions to take place however, for the people who are
opposing this saying that you're taking away an ability
to have an abortion boy, I wish I was but these 93% of the women they've known about this for quite some time they could have had that abortion prior to 20 weeks prior to the time that we have identified through scientific research that this baby is feeling pain in excess of what you and I feel. So let's look at the other 7% there. 4% say mother's health or to avert death, which are exempted from this bill.
And the other 3%, possible problems affecting the health of the child. And that's where we're going to focus here because the opponents of this bill are going to point to fetal anomalies, the 3% that this bill really affects. Aborted, examples of prenatal diagnosis of birth defect. Now, I will tell you that the numbers that you see here are probably a little higher than what they actually are in the state of Arkansas because these studies
were taken across the United States and in a couple of European countries as well. Arkansas probably has a lower percentage, but we don't have any studies specific to the state of Arkansas, so we're going
to go with the numbers that we have. When there's a diagnosis of Down
syndrome, 92% are aborted. When there is a diagnosis of
spina bifida, 67% are aborted. A diagnosis of anencephaly,
84% aborted. Children who could experience pain,
Speaker 4
48:58
who were denied the opportunity for life,
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
49:04
and our founding fathers keep in mind said that we're guaranteed
inalienable rights endowed by our creator and that the first one is life and with that I'm going to
turn it to Julie because she has a rather unique perspective
on this Representative Mayberry are you done with
Speaker 119
49:38
the slide presentation? With the slide presentation, we will have video
Speaker 157
49:44
in a few moments. Okay. Well, I didn't say earlier I am Andy's other half. I am his wife. We have four children. Fourteen years ago when we met, Andy and I made the decision to never talk about a certain issue
because we knew that it would be disruptive to our marriage. That issue was abortion. He was against it, and I was for it. There were a lot of things that went on in my life that made me see things differently. But going back to that time in my life, I can tell you that there's nothing that someone's going to get up here and say to you today that I probably didn't say myself or argue myself.
I was wrong. They're wrong. This is murder. What made me change my mind? First of all, I became a Christian. And I started reading the Bible. And the Bible tells us in Jeremiah 1.5, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. He didn't say after you were born or while you were being formed. He says, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.
Psalms 139.16 says, Your eyes saw my substance being yet unformed, and in your book they were all written. The days fashioned for me when as yet there were none of them. God has a plan for each and every living being, even before they come into the world. Then I had my first child, our first child, Ellie. And at the ultrasound at nine weeks, I was amazed at what was there.
Speaker 159
51:42
I saw arms, I saw legs, and I saw this very big, beautiful-looking head. it was beautiful it
Speaker 157
51:59
was life and I am very disappointed that we could not show you today some of the most beautiful pictures that have ever been captured and it's of babies in the womb my background in journalism has always taught me that you read stuff
you hear stuff and you look at stuff to learn. And I'm very saddened that I could not show those pictures to you today because those pictures were instrumental in me seeing and understanding when life begins. Third thing that happened is that I got educated. I was out there defending something that I really didn't know a whole lot about.
and Andy has already described abortion at least those after 20 weeks there are a lot of pictures that we could have shown you today that are gruesome and we chose not to show those but if you were to look it's easy to find
Speaker 163
53:07
and there's no doubt when you look at those pictures that this is
Speaker 157
53:13
destroying life I am extremely grateful that I came to this realization before the birth of our second child, Katie.
Speaker 157
53:27
discovered that she would be born with spina bifida. Spina bifida is a neural tube defect, and it causes paralysis, hydrocephalus, bladder and bowel problems, scoliosis, the list goes on. the doctor started telling us our options and started to mention abortion and he didn't get it out of his mouth before Andy and I stopped him because at that point in
Speaker 163
53:47
my life I knew it was wrong and I'm so grateful for all that I want
Speaker 157
53:55
to show you right now a video to explain a little
bit about Katie this is a video that we have put together that's now in a video format called Project Eli, and Eli stands for Every Life Inspires, and it's named after a little boy, Eli McGinley. His parents, Jody and Jesse, are here with us today, and they have a beautiful story to share. But this is a video to be given to women when they find out that they're going to have a child born with spina bifida to let them understand that these children are blessings.
Speaker 167
54:37
On December 26, 2001, the Mayberry family of three became the Mayberry family of four with the addition of Katie Faith Marie Mayberry. We knew at 19 weeks of my pregnancy that Katie would be born with spina bifida,
a condition that prevents the spinal cord from forming properly in the womb during the first 28 days of a pregnancy. When she was born, there was a lesion on her back about the size of an orange. It looked like raw flesh down to her spinal cord. The severity of the complications can vary from patient to patient, but usually involves some degree of paralysis and poor bladder and bowel control. She was immediately taken to Arkansas Children's Hospital, and at one day old, had her first surgery to repair her spinal cord. She had to lay on her belly for six weeks while the stitches healed.
Almost a week later, we got to hold her for the first time. So how does it feel, Dad? She had one more surgery before her departure from Children's Hospital. Part of Katie's brain is sunken into her neck, forcing the fluid that should flow freely from her head to other parts of her body to back up. A tube, called a shunt, was placed in her head to drain that fluid into her belly. The first year of Katie's life was full of ups and downs.
She learned to roll over at nine months. Roll over. Yeah, push. Yay! She later began to scoot around the house by army crawling and eventually learned to sit up. At slightly over two years old, Katie got wheels. What are you in, Katie? My wheelchair. She learned very quickly how to maneuver the wheelchair around objects. She loves being able to get around without having to use all of her energy to crawl
or to cry for mom or dad to pick her up. At about two weeks after the wheelchair, Katie stood for the
Speaker 178
56:54
first time with the help of braces. I'm
Speaker 151
56:58
standing at the table. You are standing at the table.
Speaker 167
57:09
look so cute. She is even beginning to take the smallest of steps.
One small step for man, one gigantic step
Speaker 184
57:20
for Katie. Ready, set, go. Oh, there you go. You did a good job. I will walk
Speaker 167
57:29
at a child in a wheelchair or braces and think, oh, poor thing. With Katie, all I see is pride, determination, and a twinkle in her eyes. I will look like...
Speaker 162
57:50
I would have made the argument that before I had this change in my mind that Katie would have been better off dead than alive. She is a wonderful blessing, and these children deserve
Speaker 157
58:22
a chance at life. I can remember arguments that I had with people specifically on this topic. I believe
Speaker 163
58:34
God allowed all those things to happen so that I could be with you today and express these views to you. Katie's life is valuable. She has been one of the greatest gifts that we have been given, and yes, our life is different. It's better. Before Katie was born, we also looked
Speaker 157
58:54
into in-utero surgery done at Vanderbilt in Nashville, Tennessee. We wanted to show you that picture as well, and we were told we couldn't show
Speaker 163
59:03
this one, but I'm going to describe it to you. of a little baby named Samuel he's at 21 weeks and this is a well-publicized photo that is shown in magazines newspapers all over the world and it's of this
Speaker 157
59:17
little baby Samuel reaching his hand out of his mother's womb while Dr. Bruner the man who we met with reached out grabbed his hand
Speaker 163
59:28
It is a beautiful, beautiful picture of life, 21 weeks old. We elected, we spent two days
Speaker 157
59:37
there in Nashville going over the procedure. Basically what it is is to do surgery on your child with spina bifida before the child's born, hoping to correct the birth defect before the child's born. In our circumstance, it was not the right option. There were some medical things on my part, and we chose not to do that by advice from the doctors there.
We did not have that surgery, but that surgery is continuing, and they just released last month some wonderful studies on it. These doctors are doing surgery on babies at 19, 20, 21, 22 weeks. They're repairing their birth defect. And, yes, what they do is they open up the mom's belly, they pull the uterus out, they cut open the uterus, and they do surgery on this tiny little baby.
And doctors, researchers, they believe that these babies at that age are worth doing surgery on to improve their lives, to save their life. And unfortunately, down the hall sometimes, there's someone doing whatever they can to end that life. At 21 weeks, which is where we would have been when Katie was able to have this surgery, they would have given her anesthesia.
Speaker 163
1:01:11
I speak all around the state on this topic, hoping to open people's eyes, just
Speaker 157
1:01:17
like mine needed to be opened. And I have people come up to me all the time after I speak, and they tell me that they were told that their child was going to be born with Down syndrome, heart defect, something, and their child was born perfectly healthy. Imagine how many babies have
Speaker 87
1:01:38
been aborted that could have had very successful,
Speaker 157
1:01:43
beautiful lives. i would also like to point out as andy said this does not stop all abortions unfortunately
women can still have an abortion before 20 weeks i am sure that many of you got the same email that andy got yesterday from a college student at ualr and let me read it she says sexually active women in this city highly depend on their overall choices.
Chantel Bisbee
Unverified
1:02:07
Mrs. Mayberry, I'm sorry, but we do not read letters in committee. So I'm going to ask you not to read that letter, please. Okay. Well, I will paraphrase. Basically, a woman, and I'm sure she might even be here today,
Speaker 157
1:02:24
she wants to have sex. She wants to have the option of abortion if
Speaker 163
1:02:29
she gets pregnant. she wants to use this as birth control and unfortunately this bill still allows her to use abortion as birth control she just has to do it before
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
1:02:50
20 weeks Madam Chair we're open to questions if there are any
from the committee Dr. Gaskell you're recognized for a question and you may identify to whom your question is directed. I would like
Representative Billy W. Gaskill
Unverified
1:03:04
to have the physician back up there. Yes, sir. This is going to take a minute or two. Yes, sir. Go right ahead. All right. You and I discussed this briefly. You like that voice, don't you? How in the world, this is what bothers me,
how in the world can we go to four years of college, four years of med school take some of the most difficult courses in the world do a year of internship and residency we trust you to save our lives and we've got people that want to take them I just wonder what happened to them doctor what's curious
Speaker 124
1:03:48
to me is that we actually all take the Hippocratic Oath and in the Hippocratic Oath it actually states that we would not take a life
whether by suicide or perform an abortion. It's actually in the Hippocratic Oath. So I don't think the Hippocratic Oath is
Speaker 198
1:04:04
not followed anymore. Okay. This is what came to my mind, too, while
Representative Billy W. Gaskill
Unverified
1:04:12
I was discussing with you. We're tied up in federal courts these days over trying to find a drug that will not cause a dad-blame convicted killer pain whenever he dies, okay? We really want him taken care of, let him die painlessly.
But we don't mind taking the life, and I say the life, of an unborn baby. What the hell
Speaker 124
1:04:37
is going on here? Well, some of the same thoughts went through my mind when I've watched intravenous executions. The drugs they actually use in an execution are anesthetics. They use sodium pentothal, which is what we used to use to put a patient to sleep. And then after the patient is put to sleep, then they administer potassium chloride, which
stops the heart, and then pavulon, which is a muscle relaxant, which stops breathing. So actually what's really going on in an execution is the patient is put to sleep before he's He's executed. MR. Yeah. He certainly doesn't need
Representative Billy W. Gaskill
Unverified
1:05:21
me in charge of it. He would remember it. MR. But he's anesthetized.
Speaker 124
1:05:30
MR. Yeah. He's left. MR. The fetus is not anesthetized before its demise.
Representative Billy W. Gaskill
Unverified
1:05:34
MR. But it just seems to me like it's just an offhanded thing. We're going to do an abortion. My God, it's a murderer. Thank you,
Madam Chair. MS. Seeing no other questions from the committee, we have a number of people signed
up to speak on this bill. We'll go ahead and move to that. We
have to speak against the bill. First on our list is Dr. Janet Cathy. Representative Mayberry, if you'll kind of
move your equipment aside as well so that those folks can get up to the table. good morning ma'am if
you will make sure your mic is on get as close to it as you can and
introduce yourself for the record and with whom you represent yes ma'am
Speaker 205
1:06:43
madam chairman woman Thank you for allowing me this opportunity to express my thoughts and opinions on what I feel is very important legislation to our citizens. I'm Dr. Janet Cathy. I've been board certified in obstetrics and gynecology since 1986. I'm licensed to practice in Arkansas, and I've had 23 years of experience in private practice taking care of women in our great state.
Today I'm speaking to you as a physician, as a patient, as a sister, and as a mother. I'm not representing any group other than patients. On reading this bill, of course, my immediate concern, and any of these, most of the things I read are read from the viewpoint of how is this going to affect my patients, and how is this going to affect the way in which I am able to take care of my patients.
Pregnancy now is diagnosed very early. It's very, I mean, pregnancy tests are readily available. Over-the-counter pregnancy tests are just as valid as those done in a doctor's office. In fact, my daughter did her science fair project on that. But even the dollar store pregnancy tests are extremely reliable. It's uncommon that a woman would not know by 20 weeks gestation that she was pregnant.
What I want members of this committee to understand that in my years of experience in caring for women, it's rare that a termination of pregnancy at 20 weeks is elective. By far the majority of terminations at this stage of patients are due to a gross fetal anomaly or a malformation that is incompatible with life or in a situation to save
the life of a mother. These are women who in these pregnancies are very much wanted. These are women who have been devastated by the diagnosis of a baby with an abnormality that would result in a child with an extremely grave disability, a disability that there's no hope for inequality of life. Not all these babies are babies like Katie. Not all those
stories will end happy. And there are many of these malformations, many types of malformations that even in this day of medicine cannot be diagnosed until well into the second trimester or at 20 weeks gestation. Again, these are women, these are families who wanted this baby, who expected this baby, who planned for this baby. They've seen this baby on ultrasound.
They've heard the baby's heartbeat. They've felt it move. These are children who have hoped for. These are, because we know, because pregnancies are diagnosed so early, we usually know the sex of the baby. These babies have been named. It's devastating for these women to find this information. And it's also devastating to be the person who has to tell this mother
and this father who so much want this baby that there's no chance for a pregnancy that will end in nine months with a newborn baby to carry home. I want the members of this committee to understand that I don't think the decision to have an abortion is ever one that is ever taken lightly. These are not decisions where, oh, this baby's not perfect, we don't want it. It's not a situation where a woman says, oh, I feel bad pregnant, I don't
think I'll continue this. These are extremely brokenhearted families, families that are wrecked with pain. I cannot tell you what it's like to have seen and shared in the pain and anguish that each day of pregnancy brings for these families, these families who know that there's no hope for these children. Every day waiting is agony. It's cruel.
Let me give you a little bit different example than what Julie presented us with. This was also a patient, I'll just say Alice, who at 20 weeks on what was supposed to be a happy routine ultrasound, this baby is found to have an extremely high spina bifida. That means when the spine is open, not down low, but at the very top of the neck and it's open for most of the way down the spine. These babies aren't ever going to be, this baby
was never going to be in a wheelchair. This baby would have never moved its arms or legs or its hand to be able to squeeze. Already at 20 weeks gestation, almost all of its brain tissue was destroyed by fluid on the brain already. This wasn't a baby that was going to learn to laugh and talk or read a book. The point of this is every circumstance is totally different.
There are so many things for us to consider in these situations, and you cannot know what you would do or what your decision may be until you are actually faced with that decision. This decision was gut-wrenching for all of us who took care of this baby, or this pregnancy.
Every day after that ultrasound was just unimaginable pain for that family. And I know that because I was there with that patient every day. And there's several other examples of children, as I said, who have malformations that are not going to be Katie's. These are also not patients who are just willing to accept this diagnosis or a treatment plan. These are patients who are thoroughly informed of the diagnosis
and prognosis of these children, not just from one source, but from the obstetrician, from pediatricians, from textbooks, these are patients who understand their options for deliveries. I'm concerned about laws because I don't need these laws to tell me how to be a physician and how to take care of patients. Regarding Dr. Novembre's presentation, with
With all due respect, I think this is, at best, a very controversial issue and very likely has, some would consider, has little scientific proof or basis. This is not the only issue that this bill also addresses. The physician-patient relationship, as you can tell from the above situation, and in
all situations, is an extremely sacred trust. And it's a trust that is extremely humbling to share with patients. When the state of Arkansas trained and licensed me and sanctioned me with this trust, they They said, Janet, Kathy, we have trained you, we have licensed you, and we trust that you are going to serve the citizens of this state by practicing medicine with the best of your skill, with good conscience, and with ethics.
And I take this very seriously. I took that same oath to my profession, and just to make things clarify issues, the current Hippocratic oath does not say anything about abortion in it. But this oath I took reinforces these ethics. I have concerns that this bill tries to invade this sacred relationship and really brings into questions as to what I'll do if I will do what the state has entrusted
me to do. I think we have to be very careful about painting a very broad stroke and caring for a patient in a situation that is unique in every way imaginable. Whenever in these situations, you can't make an over-encompassing law because every situation is extremely
unique. Every situation is held with dignity and respect that is best for that patient and that family at that time in that situation. There are some other things that I think are important to look at in this bill. I think that this reporting requirement of the bill puts an undue burden not only on physicians but on the health care staff.
I think HMOs have shown us that more paperwork is more time away from patients. I think the information requested is available in other ways. I think this listing of penalties for physicians in reporting is not necessary. The penalty for acting in what is not good medical judgment is unnecessary.
There is a physician who fails to use good judgment and practice by the standard of care falls under the Medical Practices Act and that is an issue that is brought before the medical board and I don't think should be legislated. I just question if there's any other field of medicine or any other single specific procedure
which the legislature places criminal penalties on. Just a little thing, and I guess doctors can be picky about some things. I'm not sure what the reason for using the term post-fertilization age is when the standard medical terminology in referring to a pregnancy as gestational age. Just in closing, I think we have to be very cautious when you begin regulating any field and especially the field of medicine.
Again, we've seen the effect of regulation by the HMOs trying to dictate how physicians practice and the effect it's had. I've spent eight years in post-graduate training in medicine and had a career in caring for women and all I'm saying is let me do what I've promised the state that I will do. I, and when I say I, I think I mean physicians, will always practice to the standard of care,
will always use their very best medical judgment and care for patients in a way that is ethical and that treats each patient as the unique individual that they are in each unique situation. Madam Chairman, I once again thank you for your time and thank the members of your committee for listening and I thank you all for your service to our great state. you, Dr. Kathy, for your
testimony. I see no questions, so I appreciate your being here
today. We have signed up to speak for the bill. Jesse and Jody McGinley, if you will take your place at the end of the table, introduce yourself
for the record. I'm Jesse McGinley I'm Jody McGinley And do you represent an organization
Or are you here to testify on your own behalf?
Speaker 213
1:20:32
Our own behalf Thank you I guess first I want to say thank you for having us Thank you for your time and listening We are just an ordinary family We've been there We've been faced with a choice and we want to share a little bit about our experience with you. To give you a little bit of background history about Justina, our plan to go forth with a normal family like most people do
after they finish college and get married, buy your first house, is we experienced two unexplained miscarriages. We went through one year of fertility treatments and one successful round of in vitro fertilization, And that is what it took for us to be able to get pregnant with twin boys. They were fraternal twin boys, meaning they were in separate sacks. And at 19 weeks gestation, one of our twin boys was diagnosed with spina bifida. Spina bifida is generally not a fatal diagnosis.
And in this case, we were in the hands of the best high-risk OBGYN in the state of Arkansas. And on ultrasound, his diagnosis was not determined to be fatal. And our high-risk specialist told us he's coming no matter what. And he did not give us the choice. He looked at us because he knew immediately what we would have said. And it was just not an option for us.
and we walked away, and for the remainder of our pregnancy, we prepared a home for our two opposite twin boys. We knew this challenge coming in, and we took it, and we ran with it. Upon the twin's delivery just 19 months ago, our precious baby A, who we named Eli, his health unexpectedly deteriorated. His diagnosis ended up being much more severe than what the best high-risk specialists in the state could predict on ultrasound. And Eli passed away in our arms at five days old.
I think it's important to mention that he did become an organ and tissue donor with Aurora, which we're very proud of him. And he was also part of, Julie Mayberry mentioned earlier, there was a foundation that was set up in a documentary called Team Eli and also Project Eli, meaning Every Life Inspires. his five short days of life has given hope to thousands of other families all across this country who are faced with having a special needs child Eli had a right to life just like the baby
who had the heart defect and who received his heart valves has a right to life and and I do want to mention that you know this could easily have been the recipient of could have been your child or grandchild in this room right now and although our outcome wasn't what we prayed for we have our closure and we're able to hold him in our arms we had the chance to pray with him to look at him to share five miraculous days with him talk to him and look into that face
in the eyes of a true hero. And it was a baby who gave the gift of life to save another baby. Eli's final moments of life involved a loving situation in our arms and not a painfully inflicted death. Our closure comes from knowing that we gave him that chance at life. Thank you for your time. Just Jody and I,
Speaker 142
1:24:19
We were the example that she just gave. Eli's spine and bifida
Speaker 208
1:24:23
was high. And I just want to tell every one of you, I will not trade those five days for anything in this world. And thank you for
your time. Thank you all for being here. We appreciate it. We know it's daunting to
come to this table. So we express our appreciation for you contributing. To speak against the bill is
Elizabeth Walker with the Attorney General's Office.
If you will, take your place at the end of the table. Ms. Walker, if you will, introduce yourself and the organization you represent, and
Elizabeth Walker
Unverified
1:25:08
you may proceed. Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee. My name is Elizabeth Walker. I am Deputy Attorney General in charge of the Opinions Department of the Office of Attorney General. As you know, the Attorney General provides legal opinions to various state officials
on questions of state law. My department is responsible for researching and drafting those opinions. The Attorney General is also specifically required to provide his opinion to members of the General Assembly on the constitutionality of proposed legislation, and that is why I'm here today. I will be addressing the constitutionality of House Bill 1887. H.B. 1887 is entitled the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act.
With the exception of certain instances involving the pregnant woman's medical condition, the The bill attempts to prohibit abortion after 20 weeks based on findings regarding fetal pain. The United States Supreme Court has addressed the abortion issue by balancing a woman's reproductive rights under the federal Constitution against the state's interest in protecting unborn children. Beginning in 1973 with Roe v. Wade and as recently as 2007, the Supreme Court has held
women have the right to choose an abortion before viability. Viability being defined as the point in fetal development when, in the judgment of the attending physician, a fetus, if born, would be capable of living normally outside the womb. According to the court, before viability, the state's interests are not strong enough to support a ban on abortion. Thus, for almost 40 years, the U.S. Supreme Court has determined that viability is the point at which states may prohibit abortion.
H.B. 1887 is in clear violation of these principles. It establishes a prohibition against abortion without regard to viability. It purports instead to institute a new standard, a fetal pain standard, as the basis for banning abortions. This is contrary to long-standing U.S. Supreme Court precedent. The Court has always held that viability is the standard. It is not wavered from the decision that states may not ban abortion prior to viability.
The Attorney General's Office takes no position on whether this new standard under H.B. 1887 is good policy. Such policy decisions are for the General Assembly. If H.B. 1887 is enacted, the Attorney General's Office will do everything it can to defend it. But before you take that step, we wanted you to be aware that the bill is invalid under existing law. If the bill is enacted, a challenge will undoubtedly entail a protracted legal battle and significant expense for the state, including paying the legal fees of the plaintiff bringing the challenge.
Thank you. Ma'am, will you take questions, please? Certainly. Representative Lee, you're recognized. Thank you
Speaker 31
1:28:35
very much, Madam Chair. So I understand you correctly that you're speaking against this bill. That's
correct. Thank you. Committee, any other questions? Thank you very much, Ms. Walker.
Thank you. Next to speak for the bill is
Dr. Richard Wyatt, if you will take your place at the
end of the table, introduce yourself and the organization you
Richard Wyatt
Unverified
1:29:13
represent, and proceed. Thank you, Madam Chairman. My name is Richard Wyatt. I'm an obstetrician that practices here in Little Rock, Arkansas. I represent myself, and I have been delivering babies for 30 years. I won't go into my CV with you, but I'm also a board-certified obstetrician.
I get asked from patients frequently, how many do you deliver, doc? Well, a whole bunch, but 6,000, 7,000 at least, and I still deliver babies. I delivered one just a couple of days ago. And I just want to impress on the members of the committee that what these babies are and what they're not. Yes, I'm disappointed, like Julie, that we couldn't show you some pictures or bring in
some models, but a baby that's 20 weeks in the bill's terms, post-fertilization age, a baby. They have a head, they have a brain, they have, as she said, arms and legs and a heart that's beating, and they're just little bitty guys. They're probably about half a 500 grams or more. And I don't do abortions, and I can't attest to the abortions that I have done
cause pain, but I can testify that I have delivered babies at 20, 21, 22 weeks, and I have witnessed their pain. If I inflict pain on any of you in any way by starting an IV or, you know, the other mean things that doctors do to patients, I can tell you're in pain by looking at your face and watching you trying to retract your arm as I'm starting your IV. And these babies react the
same way, and so to think that a baby that's 20, 21, 22 weeks does not feel pain is ludicrous. Dr. Novembre has testified there is science, and part of that science was done by physicians here at Arkansas Children's Hospital. So I would ask that this committee pass this bill, and I want to address a couple of the
issues that others have brought up. Dr. Cathy brought up that there are situations that occur in medicine that are horrible. The other couple testified about Eli and how they elected to not terminate that pregnancy. There's no need, there's no medical need in these situations where there's a fetal anomaly
where they have to terminate the pregnancy. And who are we to attest to any person's quality of life? Many, as Representative Mayberry showed, most of the babies like Katie would have been aborted because those people thought, those families, whoever, felt like their quality of life wouldn't be the same. Many in the situation of the couple earlier would have aborted that baby because Eli's
quality of life is not the same as ours. Well, he lived five days. A situation I had several years ago, another horrible anomaly is anencephaly. Anencephaly is where the baby basically doesn't have a brain. And those are uniformly felt to be lethal. The baby comes out and the baby dies. Well, I had a couple who had a baby with an anencephalic diagnosed very early in pregnancy. and we were sure the baby would die.
Well, the baby had enough of a brain stem, the area of the brain that allows you to breathe, that the baby lived for three years. And, yes, that baby's quality of life was not like ours, but who am I to judge that his quality of life was not worth maintaining? So I don't think it's up to us to tell who has quality of life and who doesn't. The representative from the Attorney General's office brought up the term viability.
And Dr. Kathy and I trained about the same time, and it's been a long time ago, 25, 30 years ago. At that time, that age of viability was about 28 weeks. What is it today? Oh, at least 23 weeks, 24 weeks. What will it be tomorrow? I don't know, but it's gone down every year since I've been in practice, and it continues. The technology gets better, as with all of medicine.
So, you know, I'm not a lawyer to address the legalese of that bill, but viability is certainly decreasing. So please vote in favor of this bill. Thank you. Thank
you, sir. Seeing no questions, we
appreciate your testimony. Speaking against the bill is Bettina Brownstein.
Please help me with the pronunciation. I'm sorry if
Speaker 224
1:35:16
I mispronounced it. Actually, it can be pronounced
either way. All right. But it's Brownstein. If you'll let
Speaker 224
1:35:23
us know which organization you represent, and you may proceed. I do not represent an organization. I'm an attorney licensed to practice in Arkansas. I do have experience litigating what I term reproductive rights cases in Arkansas with some degree of success in the past. I want to – I don't want to repeat what Assistant Attorney General Elizabeth Walker stated.
I agree with her opinion. I do want to point out a couple of things that I also think there's other problems with the bill that makes them – makes it unconstitutional and subject to a challenge. There's two things. There is no emergency exception for the health of the mother. Under longstanding United States Supreme Court precedent, Planned Parenthood v. Casey, in In particular, the court has stated that there must be an emergency exception, not just to
save the life of the mother, but in cases to if the mother's health is at issue. And that is a determination to be made by the physician. The second point I want to make is that viability is carefully left up to the judgment of the physician. The courts have stated, again, the United States Supreme Court, that viability, when viability occurs, is particular in a particular situation to a particular unborn child and
a particular woman. So that is not something that can be legislated and it is not something that can be determined by the court. Viability, whenever it occurs, is up to the judgment of the physician. The last point I want to make is that the emergency exception as written into the bill also contains no exception if it is the woman's emotional or psychological condition that is at stake. That is not language that has been approved by the United States Supreme Court, and I
believe that that language makes the emergency exception subject to constitutional challenge. Finally, there is another provision in the bill about not making an emergency exception if the woman's conduct is likely to lead to problems with her health or life. I don't believe that that exception to the emergency exception can pass constitutional muster. So I definitely think this is a bill of pass that will be challenged and will not survive
a constitutional challenge, although I never want to say predict exactly what the courts are going to do, but that is my belief based on my experience and my knowledge of this area of law. Thank you very much, Madam
Chair. MS. Ma'am, would you be willing to take questions? MS. Of course. You're recognized. Do you always agree
Representative Billy W. Gaskill
Unverified
1:38:33
with the Supreme Court? No. Let me ask you this. All right. I'm loading this up because they one time voted the black of the three-fifths of a man.
Speaker 224
1:38:43
Okay? I think that was in the Constitution, actually.
Representative Billy W. Gaskill
Unverified
1:38:46
No. So, and you can bet this. You can tell by my conversation I have no belief in the Supreme Court whatsoever. Any time they get into a jam, they're bringing the Commerce Clause. I just wonder if they're going to bring it in here
Speaker 31
1:39:05
or not. Thank you, Madam. MS. Representative Lee, you're recognized. MS. Thank you, Madam Chair. Are you aware of any constitutional problems with Amendment 68 of the Arkansas Constitution? MS.
Speaker 224
1:39:14
Sorry. Actually, I was an attorney who challenged Amendment 68 in federal court, and we were successful in part and unsuccessful in part on that. I do not believe that Amendment 68 is implicated if there is federal funding for, you know, a health care procedure if Medicaid or Medicare is involved in paying for it. So in that instance, Amendment 68 would be ‑‑ has been challenged successfully that the
federal law is supreme and 68 can ‑‑ does not apply if there's federal funding involved in the medical procedure, even abortion. MS. Thank you. Representative Smith, you're recognized. MR.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for bringing
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
1:40:01
your comments today. Could you give me an example of about how
much the fiscal impact would be if we should take this bill and it should be taken to the Supreme Court? Do you know how much money that the state of Arkansas would be obligated if this should
Speaker 224
1:40:18
go that far? MS. No, but I believe it could be over $100,000 easily, and that's not – if we win, they would be – the state would be obligated to pay attorney fees such – for an attorney such as I. So you're really – I'm not doing it for money. I would be doing it because I believe this isn't – it would be poor legislation. But you don't really know what
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
1:40:41
the final dollar value would be. But it would
Speaker 224
1:40:44
be expensive. Let me tell you, it would be over $100,000 easily, I believe. Thank you.
Thank you, ma'am. for if we win. Thank
you, Madam Chair. Seeing no further questions, we'll move on to our list. Speaking for the bill, I believe is the
Bisbee family, Chantel and Pat Bisbee.
While you're taking a seat there, let me recognize Representative Lovell, you're recognized.
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
1:41:25
Madam Chair, I'd like to limit debate to 10 minutes per side.
That is a motion to limit debate to 10 minutes per side, non-debatable. All in favor, indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no. So, all right, so we are now starting the clock for the four sides. So, Mr. and Mrs. Bisbee, if you
Chantel Bisbee
Unverified
1:41:48
will proceed, introduce yourself for the record and whom you represent. My name is Chantel Bisbee. I represent myself.
Pat Bisbee
Unverified
1:41:56
My name is Pat Bisbee. I represent myself as well. Thank
Speaker 233
1:42:02
you for your time today, and I just want to share our story with you. I'm the mother of four, and I've been married to my husband, Pat, for 10 years. I was asked to come here today to share the story of our second-born child, and I'm honored to be here and hope that you will remember her well. Our journey began in January of 2005. We were expecting our second child. We had struggled with a year and a half of infertility before finally conceiving her,
and we were elated. Little did we know that our journey was going to take us to a very different destination than we would ever have anticipated. That March, at 15 weeks of pregnancy, we were given the news that our baby had a fatal birth defect called anencephaly. They've spoke of that here today. It's caused when the top of the neural tube fails to close during the fourth week of fetal development. The result is a large defect or absence of the upper brain, skull, or scalp to form. It's not treatable. It's considered 100% fatal to life outside of the womb.
Upon this confirmation of this earth-shattering diagnosis, we were carefully given our options. My husband and I were very grateful for a doctor who understood our faith in God and did not pressure us to terminate our pregnancy. And I have spoken with many women in the last five years that have carried similar situations or the same type of condition with their child. and many have had the same experience with us, but many have also been pressured by their doctor to terminate because they did not feel there was a point in continuing the pregnancy.
I just wanted to include that. However, we were subjected over the following weeks and months to many, including well-meaning family and friends, who questioned why we would choose to increase our suffering by carrying our baby to term. Many people believe that when a pregnant mother is faced with a baby who has a fatal condition, they will somehow be spared some of the trauma by ending the pregnancy early. I am here to tell you that I am grateful for the time that I had to continue on with that
pregnancy for as long as God allowed it. I'm not saying it wasn't hard for our family. It was a very difficult time. But by carrying our daughter to term, we gained cherished memories that helped to take some of the steam out of losing her in death. We were able to savor every kick and every squirm along the way and know that she wasn't gone just yet. And when the time came for her birth, I will never forget the one final kick she gave me as they pulled
her from my body. Jenna Grace Bisbee came into the world in silence on August 10, 2005. She was too weak to ever manage a breath or a cry, but she hung on with all her strength to meet her mom, dad, and sister face-to-face. Her little heart struggled to beat for one hour and 16 minutes, and then she left us for the arms of Jesus. We will never regret the five months that we continued to carry her after her diagnosis to grow her for just a little longer.
The chance to hold her and look into her face were worth any price. Having those memories of carrying her inside of me and spending that precious time with her before she passed was her gift to us. The pain and grief of losing her would not have been made easier somehow by shortening the time she was with us. It would have, however, robbed us of beautiful memories that helped us to be able to grieve her loss in a healthy way,
knowing that we had done everything for her that we could do and given her all the love that we had to give. And I've spoken with many women over the years that made the decision to terminate, that regretted it because they couldn't get closure, because they didn't have that opportunity to hold their child before it passed, or even before maybe it was stillborn, And they didn't have the opportunity, you know, to hold it and to see who it looked like and to know if it favored their other children.
They just don't get closure when they don't have that. And I just hope that you will remember our story and vote. I urge you to vote yes for this and allow it to pass on to the
Pat Bisbee
Unverified
1:46:23
House for further discussion. Now, I don't have an eloquent statement prepared like my wife did. I'm not as good with words as she is. But I just want to let you know, as a father, most of this debate is usually concentrated on the mothers. But as a father, I totally agree with the statement that Mr. McGinley made,
that that short time that our daughter was with us and we got to hold her is priceless. Just as the McGinleys, we would not trade that time for anything, and we know we made the right decision. please vote to pass this on to the full
house thank you seeing no questions thank you Mr. and Mrs. Bisbee for your testimony speaking for the bill is
I think it's Lynette Spruill is that correct have I pronounced it correctly please take
your place at the end of the table and introduce yourself in the organization you represent,
Speaker 235
1:47:36
for the record. I'm Lynette Spruill, and I am a full-time perinatal bereavement coordinator at St. Vincent Health System. For the last 30 years, I've been a nurse.
For 20 years, I've worked in OB. Ms.
Spruill, are you representing St. Vincent's, or are you representing yourself?
Speaker 235
1:47:53
I'm actually representing myself and our support group. Thank you. And the last 10 years, going on 11, I've dealt exclusively with perinatal loss in all forms. We also have a perinatal hospice program that addresses the needs of parents who've gotten a lethal diagnosis early in their pregnancy, giving them pre-counseling if they want it, also providing services during the pregnancy to support them, as well as aftercare.
We also provide aftercare to those parents who elected to terminate. Although we don't do those at our institution, we will provide support. What I have found from them, and additionally that I have cared for the remains personally of more than 4,000 embryos and fetuses as part of my job. What the parents tell me The first thing they ask me is Whether they're going to terminate or deliver
Is Is my baby going to feel pain What they really want to do Is have a lifetime with this baby Sometimes We have to find a way to create that In a few moments or a few hours And we are able to do that All the hospitals in the area Are aware that this kind of support is available, and that I do provide that certification training, and I also do it nationally.
Often I see a baby born alive at 17, 18, 19 weeks from a miscarriage, you know, a rapid delivery, something we can't stop, and there clearly seem to me to be signs of pain, of recoil. The skin is so thin, the membrane is like saran wrap. You can imagine that touching that would create a tremendous amount of pain. A woman who carries her pregnancy to term with a baby that
she knows is going to die, can love it, provide for it, even in a short time. She can progress without guilt she can also have her family around her and make all those personal choices about its care including letting us do it if they don't want to the biggest thing is the aftercare I have never had a patient who decided to continue regret it but I have many patients dozens of them who have
terminated who can't seem to move forward in their grief. Representative Mayberry, I don't want
to interrupt, but you asked me to give you two-minute warning. You have two minutes left on your time now, so
it's up to you as to how you would like to proceed. No problem. Thank you, ma'am. Sorry to interrupt. Thank you for being here.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
1:51:02
Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, we talk about existing law. Well, the existing law, the Supreme Court ruling back in 1857, Dred Scott, said that those of African-American descent were not citizens of the United States and never could be citizens of the United States. Somewhere
along the way, somebody challenged that idea. We can't put a dollar sign on what's right and what's wrong when we do. We are the epitome of inhumanity. This is about killing a child who feels pain.
I'm going to close this with the little girl that you saw up there a little while ago. When she was in first grade, they had a class project to write a letter to the President
of the United States. And most of the first graders, their letters were something to the effect of, hey, we want longer recess or we want Coca-Cola in the water fountain. The teacher stopped me and said, Mr. Mayberry, you need to see your daughter's letter that's posted outside the wall there. And it's a two-sentence letter.
It said, Dear President Obama, I am so glad you were the president for our country. I wish you would
stop thinking it's okay to kill babies
Speaker 241
1:52:24
when they're born. your friend Katie Mayberry so simple yet so eloquent she understands, she gets it she's happy to be alive despite her disability, Katie was given a chance at life
and she makes the most of it she plays Miracle League baseball takes
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
1:52:46
dance classes, sings in the junior choir at church She's a cheerleader in the upward program at our church, and she's a former Little Miss Wheelchair Arkansas. She goes to public school and makes straight A's. She loves to tell jokes. She sings, and she generally is a people magnet and has had a positive impact on more lives in her nine years on this earth than most adults ever will. Don't get me wrong, Katie has her challenges. I just have to wonder.
Your time is up. Thank you, ma'am. Let's not allow the history books to record yet another chapter for us as barbarians. Let's give these children a chance. With that, I'm closed for my bill, and I would appreciate
a good vote. Thank you. Committee, what's the pleasure? We have a motion due pass. We've heard testimony for and against. All in favor of House Bill 1887 indicate by saying aye.
Aye. All opposed, no. No. Ayes have it. Roll call.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have a roll call. Two hands. Mr. Price, would you please call the roll? Ladies and gentlemen, just for you who may not be here in the past,
what we do is we call roll in order of seniority. So we'll begin doing that, and Mr. Price, if you will go ahead. Representative Allen.
Speaker 246
1:54:11
Representative Allen. Representative Gaskell. Yes. Representative Lovell, Representative King, Representative Hall, Representative Hyde, Representative representative Penartz, representative Wagner, representative Wagner representative word,
Word, Representative Lee, Representative Smith, Representative Smith, Representative
Speaker 244
1:55:10
Representative Wilkins. Representative Wilkins. Representative Perry. Sorry. Was that
Speaker 114
1:55:20
a name? I'm sorry. Representative Perry, we
didn't hear your answer.
Speaker 246
1:55:27
No. Okay. Representative Malone. Yes. Representative Letting. No. Representative Wardlaw. Representative Lampkin. Representative Mayberry. Yes. Vice Chairman Woods. Chairman Tyler.
A vote of 9 to 3. Mayberry, your bill has failed. We're going to take a five-minute recess to get your lunch, and then we'll proceed with a regular calendar.
Agenda
Call to Order
HB1935
SB598
HB1485
HB1486
HB2186
SB386
HB2160
Adjournment
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative Linda S. Tyler Chair
Unverified
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
Representative Tim Summers
Unverified
Representative Jon Woods Chair
Unverified
Representative James McLean
Unverified
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
Speaker 29
Speaker 31
Representative Tracy Pennartz Chair
Unverified
Speaker 66
Scott Pace
Unverified
Speaker 74
Representative Charolette Wagner
Unverified
Chantel Bisbee
Unverified
Robert Breck
Unverified
Speaker 92
Representative Mark Biviano
Unverified
Speaker 100
Speaker 106
Speaker 113
Speaker 107
State Representative
Unverified
Speaker 124
Speaker 127
Speaker 130
Speaker 142
Speaker 146
Speaker 147
Speaker 4
Speaker 119
Speaker 157
Speaker 159
Speaker 163
Speaker 164
Speaker 167
Speaker 178
Speaker 151
Speaker 179
Speaker 184
Speaker 185
Speaker 162
Speaker 87
Representative Billy W. Gaskill
Unverified
Speaker 198
Speaker 205
Speaker 213
Speaker 208
Elizabeth Walker
Unverified
Richard Wyatt
Unverified
Speaker 224
Representative Garry L. Smith
Unverified
Pat Bisbee
Unverified
Speaker 233
Speaker 235
Speaker 241
Speaker 246
Speaker 244
Speaker 114