House Public Health Committee Part 3
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Bills discussed (2)
| Bill | Title | Sponsor | Status |
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HB1979
· 1 mention in transcript
Matched: “…ye. All opposed, no. We have an immediate consideration for House Bill 1979. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no.…”
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Pre-2017 bill | ||
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HB2056
· 1 mention in transcript
Matched: “All right, we have a motion due pass on House Bill 2056. We've asked the audience for anyone to speak for it and ag…”
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Pre-2017 bill |
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Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
0:00
All right, we have a motion due pass on House Bill 2056. We've asked the audience for anyone to speak for it and against it. The question before the committee now is the passage of House Bill 2056. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no. Representative Klemmer, you passed your bill. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to the calendar, and I'm just going to start at the top. Representative McLean, I don't think he's here.
Representative Rice, Representative Johnston, Representative Nichols, Representative Westerman, are you here to run your bill? Take your place at the end of the table, please. Representative Westerman, welcome to public health, and you may proceed in introducing your bill.
Representative Bruce Westerman
Unverified
1:07
Thank you, Madam Chairman. The last time I was here, I was running a broker-lien law, so this one's a little more along the lines of public health. Committee members, I'm going to ask you to make a big decision today. It's actually a decision that most of our colleagues and I have not had to make this session because it's literally a matter of life and death. As we consider this issue, I ask you to remember that you do not have to make your final decision by yourself on such an important issue. I ask and encourage you to consider the evidence, pass the bill out of committee,
and let all 99 of us debate it and make the final decision. Amendment 68 to the Constitution that you're probably all familiar with is very short and sweet. The title of it is abortion, and it's got three parts. The first one is public funding that says no public funds will be used to pay for any abortion except to
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
2:00
save the mother's life. Members, it's 1979. I see some furrowed brows. I want to make sure they knew where
Representative Bruce Westerman
Unverified
2:09
we were. Yeah, 1979, an act to prohibit abortions in state-owned health care facilities and for other purposes.
So, Amendment 68 that was passed back in 1988 says that no public funds will be used to pay for any abortion except to save the mother's life. The public policy part says the policy of Arkansas is to protect the life of every unborn child from conception until birth to the extent permitted by the federal constitution. In Part 3, the effect of the amendment, it says this amendment will not affect contraceptives or require an appropriation of public funds. That's the complete Amendment 68.
This bill to prohibit abortions in state-owned health care facilities is to ensure that no public funds will be used to pay for any abortion. My research shows that we have one institution in the state that receives public funds and performs abortions, and that is UAMS. I want to take a moment to say thank you and to commend UAMS for the education and help that they have provided me in preparation for this bill. I can say that I am very impressed with all of their personnel that I've had the opportunity to work with, including their Director of Governmental Affairs, Cherry Duckett, Jeff
Bell in the UAMS Legal Department, and especially Dr. Curtis Lowery, Professor and Chair of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. They have all been open and willing to share information with me as well as listen to my concerns while voicing their own. UAMS is obviously our flagship medical institution in the state, and it is our only teaching hospital. By no means should UAMS be confused with an abortion clinic or an abortion-on-demand provider. On average, less than 20 abortions per year are performed at UAMS with approximately 2,800 deliveries.
That's about 0.7%. From visiting with Dr. Lowry, I got a glimpse of some of the difficult situations for mothers, families, and medical professionals in which very hard and complicated decisions must often be made. Instances where the mother's life is at risk from complications such as the placenta growing into the uterus. And even if the mother does not want to have an abortion, tough decisions have to be made, such as taking the baby early in the pregnancy to save the life of the mother with a very slim chance of saving the life of the baby.
I have a deep respect for the personnel at the hospital who are committed to providing the best of services to both the mother and the baby. According to Dr. Lowry, most of the abortion procedures performed at the hospital are not emergency diagnosis and do not affect the life of the mother. Most of these abortions are performed because of anomalies that are found with the baby during the pregnancy. anomalies such as anencephaly where the baby has no brain or only a brain stem
and although it may have a heartbeat and can be born alive, in most cases it cannot survive outside the womb for more than a few hours or days although there are some exceptions. There are also certain chromosome disorders in which the baby's prognosis is generally for only a couple of months of life. Then there are cases such as spina bifida, missing limbs, or other serious birth defects in which a mother may choose to have an abortion because of the situation and the foreseeable hardships in the future. According to UAMS, mothers choose life about 50% of the time in these situations.
Ladies and gentlemen, these are situations we do not like to think about. These are extremely tough decisions, but I believe when the people of Arkansas voted to amend the Constitution to say that no public funds will be used to pay for any abortion except to save the mother's life and that the policy of Arkansas is to protect the life of every unborn child from conception until birth to the extent permitted by federal law, that the language is very clear. In 1989, a U.S. Supreme Court ruling upheld the Missouri law as constitutional,
and that law is nearly identical to the one that I am proposing for Arkansas. Louisiana, Mississippi, and Pennsylvania also has similar laws. The Arkansas Supreme Court heard a case and made a ruling in 1997 based on existing law that allows UAMS to perform abortions as long as all costs for the abortion are paid by the patient and none of the costs can be written off by the hospital. We took an oath to uphold our Constitution, and that Constitution says we are to protect the life of every unborn child from conception until birth.
and that no public funds are to be used for any abortion except to save the mother's life. I ask you today, do you believe we are currently operating in the true spirit of our Constitution? The purpose of this bill is to make a new law and to clarify that our publicly funded facilities are not to be used for
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
7:07
abortions. I'll take any questions. Seeing no questions from the committee, what's the pleasure of the committee?
We have a motion do pass. Anyone in the audits? I know we do. We have people signed up, I believe. We have three people, one, four, and two. All right. The first one signed up to speak against the bill, if you will, move aside, Mr. Westerman, while we hear testimony for either side, is Mr. Dennis Hansen with the Office of the Attorney General. If you will, sir, take your seat at the end of the table. I will introduce yourself for the record and proceed.
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
7:47
My name is Dennis Hanson from the
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
7:49
Attorney General's Office. Mr. Hanson, is your mic on? It is on, I think.
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
7:55
You may want to get really
Speaker 14
7:58
close to it. Dennis Hanson from the Attorney General's Office. Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee. When Arkansas has passed abortion laws, our office and other state attorneys have been asked to defend them. So we are here today to let you know our concerns about this case.
The U.S. Supreme Court has been consistent since 1992 in saying that there are two basic requirements with regard to state regulation of abortion. During the period before the viability of the fetus, a woman has the right to obtain an abortion without undue interference from the state. viability, the state may impose restrictions on abortions so long as the law provides an exception allowing abortion when necessary in the opinion of a medical professional to
protect the life or the health of the mother. Our principal concern with this bill is that it has an exception for the life of the mother but not for the mother's health. Westerman correctly referred to an older case from the 1980s involving a similar Missouri statute, but the Supreme Court in that case specifically said that they limited their holding to nontherapeutic abortions.
So our concern is that because this bill applies to all abortions, even those that the doctor may decide are necessary to protect the health of the mother, even if it wouldn't threaten her life, we're concerned that for that reason the statute is unconstitutional. If the bill is passed, we will defend it. We'll do our best, but we wanted to let you know about our concerns about the possible
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
9:56
unconstitutionality of the bill. I'll be happy to take any questions.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
10:05
Representative Mayberry, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. You say that one of the chief concerns is that it would not provide for an abortion in the case of the health of the mother, is that correct? Is there anything in this bill that you've been able to find that would prevent that mother who sought an abortion with regards to – if she were to make the case that it
was in her own best interest with regards to her health – in having an abortion at a non-state-funded facility? MR. My understanding is there are no such
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
10:42
facilities. And my – MR. There are not abortion providers that – MR. My understanding is that the woman would probably have to go to another state.
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
10:54
There are no facilities in the state of Arkansas that provide abortions that
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
11:00
are not state funded. We're talking about facilities that would provide an abortion to a woman who has a complicated
pregnancy in the middle of her pregnancy.
Representative Charolette Wagner
Unverified
11:22
Thank you. Representative Wagner. Thank you, Madam Chair. I think my question has
just been answered, but in other words, if we pass this bill, there would be no place in Arkansas where an abortion could be done even under the circumstances
that it has been clarified could be. I
Speaker 28
11:42
base my response to the previous question on my discussion with
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
11:46
UAMS officials, But I'm not a medical expert, and so I would ask you to refer the question to somebody better able. That's my best understanding of it. Right. But as you understand it. I understand. That would be correct.
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
12:04
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Representative Wagner, we could, I suppose, ask either the Hospital Association or UAMS
to answer that question for us. UAMS, is someone here from UAMS? Bless you. Ms. Duckett, would you come to the end of the table and identify yourself for the record. Jerry Duckett, UAMS.
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
12:38
And you still aren't feeling well, are you? Oh, I'm not. I'm so sorry.
I hope you feel better. I think the question, Ms. Duckett, is are you aware of other facilities in the state who could perform a mid-term abortion besides UAMS? It's my
Speaker 33
12:53
understanding from Dr. Curtis Lowry at UAMS that after the 20th week there
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
13:01
other than UAMS. Thank you very much. Any other
Speaker 35
13:10
questions? Representative Lee. Thank you. Could you go back to your Constitution issue with this,
Speaker 36
13:16
constitutional issue with these, excuse me. So if our constitutional amendment 68 says one thing, what you're saying is something different, can you explain how you
Speaker 14
13:31
dovetail those two? MR. Well, the courts have previously ruled that amendment 68 to the Arkansas Constitution can only be enforced to
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
13:41
the extent that it is consistent with the Supreme
Speaker 36
13:46
Court's So on the second page of this bill, lines 4 through 6, does that address that, maybe?
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
13:57
MR. On my copy, that has to do with post-abortion complications. I may have a different version than you
Speaker 36
14:14
do. MS. Okay. Can we make sure – MS. 3B2 is what I'm looking at. Do you have a 3B2? This is the amendment.
MS. Does it – well, permitting its facilities to be used for the provision and inducement performance of abortion if the services are made available as
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
14:48
a condition of the receipt of federal funds? That, as I understand it, that language was designed to deal with a specific problem in federal law, the so-called Hyde Amendment, with regard to the funding of abortions.
My concern goes beyond simply the funding question, and that is if a woman is being treated by a doctor at UAMS and she has these complications in the middle of her pregnancy, if we say that the doctor can't perform an abortion that he decides with the patient is necessary to protect her health, then that runs contrary to the Supreme Court's
Speaker 36
15:31
decisions. Okay, and so that line address that question.
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
15:36
Thank you very much. Any other questions? Thank you, sir. We have signed up to speak for the bill. Mr. Jerry Cox.
Jerry Cox
Unverified
16:04
Thank you, Madam Chair. My name is Jerry Cox.
I'm the Director of Family Counsel here in Little Rock, and it's my pleasure to come and testify on behalf of this bill. I do have some knowledge of this issue since I directed the effort to pass Amendment 68 in 1988, but I was also a plaintiff in the lawsuit that was referred back in 1990, that was mentioned from 1999. And let me, if I will, just give you a little bit of background.
Amendment 68, you know what it says. It says no public funds will be used to pay for abortions except for one reason, and that's to save the life of the mother. At the time, we ran the campaign for Amendment 68, and we circulated petitions, got it on the ballot, the people passed it, we thought that it addressed both direct and indirect funding of abortions at our state facilities.
Now, the direct funding would be if the state just hauled off and paid for a woman's abortion and just said, everybody line up, you can get an abortion, the state will pay for it and all that. We knew that it addressed that for sure. But we also believed it addressed that indirect funding, those areas where, let's say a person goes over to UAMS and they got cash money and they walk in and say, I've got $1,000, I want you to do an abortion.
We thought it also addressed the use of those buildings and that equipment and the staff and the heat and air and everything else involved with that facility. Because that, in our opinion, and I think in the opinion of a lot of people that were involved with that effort at that time, thought that it also, Amendment 68, would also address that. So in 1999, we asked the courts, this landed in court.
And the courts looked at it. And to our disappointment, the court said Amendment 68 does not apply to indirect funding. It only applies to direct funding. The case where a woman might walk in with cash money and pay for an abortion. They said, yep, Amendment 68 bans that, but it doesn't reach so far as to banning indirect funding. where the, you know, that kind of indirect funding.
So I'm sorry, I think I may have misstated, but what I'm getting at is it says that the state can't go out here and pay for abortions, but that court ruling did say that it was okay if they chose to, to go ahead and pay for them indirectly by letting the woman pay for the abortion. Now, that court ruling, hear me clearly, that court ruling did not say that the legislature could not come back at some later date and pass a law that addresses indirect funding of abortions.
That court ruling, all it did was say this is how far we believe Amendment 68 goes. It just goes to that point, and that's where it stops. But see, other states like Missouri and Louisiana have seen fit to do exactly what Representative Westerman's bill does. They've already done this in Missouri, and they've already done it in Louisiana, and they've already done this in Pennsylvania. And none of those laws, to my knowledge, has even been challenged.
The constitutionality hasn't even been challenged to those laws. And so when I hear testimony that says the Attorney General has had to defend all these pro-life laws that have been passed here at the legislature, let me share one bit of information that you might want to know, And that is, I have been involved with a passage, I believe, of every pro-life bill passed by the Arkansas legislature over the last 20 years.
And I cannot recall even one of those laws that the Attorney General has had to defend. Not a single one. Not one. and so to somehow imply that Representative Westerman's law would be unconstitutional that makes absolutely no sense because his law is doing the same thing they've done in these other states and they've not been challenged
and the sky hasn't fallen in in Missouri and it hasn't fallen in in Louisiana and it hasn't fallen in in Pennsylvania and is not going to fall in here if we pass this bill. And so, Madam Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to testify, and I'll be glad to entertain any questions if people have them. Thank
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
21:35
you, Mr. Cox. We have a bit of a complication. We have to be in session at 3.30. So it's up to the committee as to where we go from here.
We will not have time to have questions, and we have other testimony. Representative Lovell, you're recognized.
Chair
Unverified
21:52
I move that we immediately consider.
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
21:55
We have a motion for immediate consideration. That's not debatable. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no. We have an immediate consideration for House Bill 1979. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. All opposed, no. No. Mr. Westerman, you have failed your bill.
I don't see two hands. We're adjourned.
Agenda
No agenda available.
Documents
No documents posted.
Speakers
Representative Buddy Lovell
Unverified
Representative Bruce Westerman
Unverified
Dennis Hanson
Unverified
Speaker 14
Representative Andy Mayberry
Unverified
Representative Charolette Wagner
Unverified
Speaker 28
Representative Linda S. Tyler
Unverified
Speaker 33
Speaker 32
Speaker 35
Speaker 36
Jerry Cox
Unverified
Chair
Unverified