ALC-JBC Budget Hearings (9a-11:30A)

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee if you would take your seats we're going to get started. And I do have one announcement. And that is to remind you about your pictures for the composite. And it will be in room three oh nine and senators you are able to go from nine AM to three PM of the fourteenth and fifteenth and of representatives I believe you have times scheduled. Of but since there are fewer office we the senators can drop in when it's convenient. Thank you very much alright moving right along. The chair sees a quorum. And we're going to start with the public defender commission Jennifer. Milk. You are recognized. Thank you madam chair my name's Jennifer reckoned with the bureau of legislative research of a fiscal analyst. Really get the public defender commission's budget. He'll turn to page one fifty six the starts their budget. The public defender commission was created to address a variety of concerns relating to the representation at the indigent criminal defendants in Arkansas. On page one fifty seven is the department appropriation summary. They have a total of four appropriations. The agency request is about thirty one million each year of the biennium. And the executive recommendations about thirty two million for each year of the biennium. Am I going to why there is a difference here in just a little bit. You'll turn to page one fifty nine of your manual the first appropriation is the ombudsman program a program. This appropriation is funded by transfer from DYS this appropriation was created to ensure that children DYS is because the are receiving necessary services designed to keep them safe both mentally and physically this the agency and executive are about seventy five thousand a year. For the biennium. On page one sixty one is your second appropriation. This is their operations appropriation. This operation this appropriation is amended from state central services fund. The agency and executive are recommending about three point one million each year of the biennium the only change level is in regular salaries of matching the reason for that is the reclassification of five positions. On page one sixty three is their third appropriation this is their trial office. It is funded from state central services fund state administration of justice fund bail bonds fees and user attorney fees. The agency is requesting about twenty five million each year the executive is recommending about twenty six million each year of the biennium this is where our differences are. This is due to reclassification of a hundred and twelve positions that was found after the agency had already turned in their budget the agency is completely on board with the executive recommendation. The agency is also requesting the continuation of two pool positions that were previously requested during the interim in personnel in February of this year. And our fourth and final appropriation for this agency is the commission for parent council on page one sixty five. This council was moved from the administrative office of the courts during the two thousand nineteen regular session. It is funded from state central services. The agency and the executive or recommending about three point two million each year. The agency is requesting a reallocation of fines and from their extra help line of three hundred twenty thousand they're wanting to move it. Two two hundred ninety thousand to refunds and reimbursements line for the cost of hiring lawyers to defend parents and thirty thousand two operating expenses for mileage reimbursement for extra help attorneys they're asking for this recap re a cal allocation during the budget hearings because they don't have to go before peer again. This concludes my presentation madam chair. All right to we do have a question Representative Beck you're recognized thank you Mr chair of. It is just quickly if from Dick's this wind use. Of the difference between the request that is and what the executive quest was our recommendation is was two million dollars of cells in that neighborhood and you said because they found they are reclassifying a hundred and twelve positions in their trial trial office its attorney positions okay obviously was that part of that. A thing that we ran into I'm sorry I don't know the actual what we reclassified why we pay the lawyers defending I'm I'm not sure I'd have to ask that you have to ask the agency about that reclassified in that means that. There there were moved to different position are they reclassified the position they were in there just re classifying the position so that it gives them more room to grow grow and have. A larger salary later on. Thank you thank you Mr chair. Senator Elliot you're recognized for a question I'm thinking of his or what I want to know perhaps so Arkansas gonna ask about the reclassification if so. The album my simple question was was the basis of the reclassification and I is that what you answer to Representative Beck it's is to help them to grow at the to give the attorneys more room to grow with their salaries and site and then we also lower than number or we just we just reclassified because we have the money to to take we already have the money to pay them when we reclassify is not changing the it's a change in the salaries and the personal matching to be able to be able to find it so everything matches up yes and okay alright thank you. This kid a kid to make a statement on that thank you I was just going to remind the committee that the personnel subcommittee will look at all of these and examine them and make a recommendation back to this full committee to report for them to a doctor or not. Thank you all right Representative would you recognize for question. I think you need to push but there. There we go. Your own now okay thank you thank you madam chairman. Page one fifty six is that the total employees for the all three of those are from rations. Yes Sir. Do you know how many of the three thirty eight currently fill. No Sir I would have to ask the agency that when the agency comes in you can about that all right I'll make sure that we get that answer thank you sure. All right the. Upon. To senator bond you're recognized for a question them work on call the agency and to add up to answer the other question. My question for the ages alright thank you and if you would call the agency in. State your name for the record please. We have a question for you. Eight senator bond. Thank you very much just a couple of questions on personnel I know we added of. Senate. We added a few possessions in the last regular session I think Senator Hester. Was concerned about prosecutorial positions and so we added an equal number of public defender positions yeah and senator bond for the record as the chair lady ask Greg perish FOR the Arkansas public defender commission to my right is Tracy rainy as well as in senator memories is exceptional we received two attorney positions last time as did the prosecutors receive two positions all right first I want to note that I said senators Hester name and it wasn't in vain. To I know that we have all been hesitant to ask for additional personnel but I know we have this long running problem of not enough public defenders and people really stretched imports particularly in rural Arkansas thing I'm having difficulty getting lawyers so. I know you're hesitant to speak to that but I'm concerned of this lack of personnel and then we're gonna have a bubble of trials after the pandemic were nobody's going into court right now and really trying cases for a lot of reasons and then we show up late and twenty twenty one or some hopefully sooner and start having all these trials where are we on personnel. Approximately Senator in and other dresses before their or an upset all say this I'm not complaining the prosecutors have too many so please don't accept it that way last count they have about two hundred and forty eight deputy prosecutor positions we have approximately one hundred and sixty seven public defender positions. Oscars like was have the elected positions as well as the resource of the Attorney General. We Many of our positions or what we call job shared. Because we have so many courts to cover not only the use circuit courts the district courts that the prosecutors have but we also have the city courts that the city attorney's cover. A. I come as you know from the sixth district and that must have come and go in three counties in one day and it's it's it's always a juggling act I have judges right now that are demanding additional help in their specialty courts. Because every time a specialty court is enacted. We are expected to be present for the specialty court as well and it just what it does is it may not increase the caseload. But as attorneys in increases office visits it increases court appearances it increases J. Elvis speed increases witness statements and so it's always a balancing act. Wasn't it was a request made for additional personnel and I think I've asked you this before none of the executive branch is is hesitant to increase personnel and they were all hesitant to do that on a but. Do we expect the even higher demand after the pandemic in attorney hours to process cases that needed trials are close to trials and we have now we will know for for the past several months of continuously relate to our people there is going to come a day of reckoning there's no doubt. That the courts are now starting to re open we've had approximately eight to ten trials the last couple of months couple this past week. The facilities are always an issue were having on that but I've spoken many judges and other unit one judge says I'm across many cases in December as I can because I'm leaving the criminal bench at that time and be ready because nothing's getting continued and I don't expect many and get continued in Ralph the they don't need to be for anybody who's been sitting in jail. That case needs to go and that's what I told my public defenders to that case if that was your love was sitting in jail there needs to be some resolution informality to that person. But we expect the a great influx of cases come after the first of the year and in the past we have asked for additional positions this year the not because I did with the pandemic going on in the budget constraints our I think our could perceive what response would be I understand that so we did not Fisher although they're needed. All right just to two things one could you say that I know you may be reluctant to do it she does what. You think is gonna be required so this legislature that I'm leaving will have the opportunity to consider that. And then to I think it's important to note that are jail population prison population and all those things depend on having enough public defenders to cover everything to keep it down keep it reasonable. Are there courts that aren't being covered now you know in rural Arkansas that we have openings that are being filled or are being covered to the extent we need because we have open positions I do not have open positions I work in reality I have two part time attorney positions are open that are about to be filled. tools we just got the bar results here in the last sixty days. The rural courts what I have continue to survey is feeling attorney positions south of little rock is extremely difficult. And I can isolate those those areas. Because there is not a great influx of attorneys returning to south Arkansas it is a for problem prosecutors have as well. The problem that we have is when we do get someone. Once we train them and get them the experience they need they're available for what we call cherry picking higher salaries going the prosecutor's office and I don't blame them four young lawyer. Ten fifteen thousand dollars a year is a great change if that's what you're offered. And so that is a huge difficulty for us on the tenth district the thirteenth district. five and six counties of advertised positions of intense district four times and. There's no qualified pool there to do this work. Thank you for your patience thank you Representative would you're recognized for a question thank you madam chairman I'm interested in the home page one fifty six in our manual. It shows three hundred and thirty eight positions and in the employment summary. Then they'll in the budget. It shows you own your request. Shows two hundred and seventy eight positions yes Sir what what is the difference it's the job share the position we will take an attorney position because of the you certain areas and will take an attorney position as a whole full time position and we'll split it in half meeting will have an attorney who's working twenty hours what we call a job share of that forty our position and another employee working twenty hours we'll have one position we'll have to points filling that position and they just basically split the salary and their benefits are crude half the rate of a full time person. Ellery amount. celery amount is based on one employee yes Sir of friends GS A GS ten will come in and us for fifty six thousand dollars there are a great number of people out there who want the benefits that go along with position and so at a part time position they're hired in at twenty eight thousand and an attorney position. Positions do you have that or open at the current time I have one part time GS ten. In one part time GS twelve attorneys but I'm in the process of feeling right now the the two hundred and seventy eight well two hundred seventy eight includes staff as well clerical rule but and I was issued and if those positions because I want to win last week with my HR person I have about four to five of those that we are trying to feel okay so you've got two and five yes Sir seven of the two seventy eight yes Sir okay alright thank you madam chair thank you a Representative Boyd you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair so I've come from Sebastian county and pre co that we had over crowded jail now since cove it it doesn't seem to be the same issue by local problem but I'm sure Sebastian county is not the only one the only county across the state that has an overcrowded jail you know creek of it One of the factors that it has been relayed to me that why we have an overcrowded jail is a lack of public defenders and so I just want to see if you have any insight what the cross the state not specific to Sebastian county but across the state and is that really a rate limiting step in getting people through the criminal justice system the appropriate way and thank you yes Sir and represent board and I'll be glad speaks to separately I have this specific inside about Sebastian county because I speak with the judge Tabor up there with the last week. What what we have to take in consideration and I've done this before is from a public defender standpoint if I have let's say I have four people in the jail that I need to this. A I've got to clear that out my calendar if I know I'm going down there I just don't go down there spur of the moment. And I may spend I know almost been a minimum of half of the day there no matter what. if that's local. If it's if I have to travel thirty miles which is common for a public mentors to go to another jail to see somebody. I'm I'm all set aside three quarters of the day. Because I got a coordinate feedings I got a court jail schedules I don't know how long anyone conversations going take within and may. The sense Coleman hit. The numbers of the jails initially came down because prosecutor for working with us and I will say they've been very good as well as the share of suspensions shares. Because they were. Bonds on people if they could not make. What we're getting released under conditions or or lower bond that they could make and so initially we. Cut those numbers out and we were able to play a lot of people because they recognize prosecutors recognized what was going on as well. That number is growing back now if you consider someone who's been in jail since before January. They have not had a trial. And we're gonna have to try that case because obviously if it was going to plead you are rhetorically. And there are great numbers of those cross the state in all of our jails. And the problem that I perceive is we catch at least ninety percent of all criminal cases. Where there is the defense attorney involved because of people's financial status. Where I came from the judge was a week long trial five days. Well every day. A would be trying cases everyday personally I've tried three cases three days in a row and I fully expect this was fixed happened some of public defenders. And my big concern is about the numbers. A year down the road with Mr see rule thirty seven petitions which are ineffective assistance of counsel claims that will then hit the court system back again at the local level so we got the real precarious at which all these cases as public defenders. But there is that issue that's involved. And you as a public defender to try a certain classification of a felony you have to have a certain level of experience the example all right to use as my son's an attorney been there for four years. He could not try a class Y. Class A or class B. felony because he does not has the practical experience. That is required to try that complicated case you come in automatically qualified to handle see in the film is low grade fellas but through experience you work apparently more complicated ones so in each district if I've only got three or four people that can handle what felonies and I've got ten cases on the trial calendar that a proper Donnelly wine a or B. felonies they're getting all those three attorneys again all those cases. I hope that answers your question. Thank you. All right the Representative capp. Mister Mister pairs March here and if you don't mind could you provide some context into you touched on the difference between the starting salary of the a public defender and a prosecutor fit to print to provide the committee a context of what the starting salary is for a public defender position verses a prosecutor and how all that complicates trying to the feel these positions across the state especially in a rule areas Trumann I'll be glad to go back in and may not use this as an example causes the best analogy I know to use when my son graduated law school about four years ago he was offered a county position at the public defender's office and FOR able to see the work there's a Clerk and the manager wanted our. No involving a mile. He took that position. He was good friends with the elected prosecutor up there because you know from parking and within sixty days to sell for ten to fifteen thousand dollars more annually in salary. That's really easy for a young lawyer coming out of school what that to say that these for me to to. We start our GST into our new attorney's office fifty six thousand a year that's the base salary. GS eleven source sixty three the GS twelve and thirteen is or seventy two and seventy six in comparison prosecutors and I don't want any I got a lot of friends for prosecutors I want to be perceived that I'm being negative towards them. They can hire in a career levels. fact issue in my people do it quite frequently you can check transparency there are some GS nine prosecutors out there making forty to fifty thousand years yes all nines part time. And my part time entry for Justin is twenty eight. I've got a little there's a lot of part time prosecutors out there who are my friends making fifty thousand dollars a year. And the most I can pay even the GS thirteen is thirty six that in for choose to spare. And once we trying on. We lose a. Unless they have a heart for this work it's not about money at that point. But if it's about money we're gonna lose a good public defender thank you thank you. A senator Ingram and then we're going to senator Elliott. Some. By senator. Thank you for the question. I'm sorry have you finished. All right thank you senator Elliott you're recognized thank you madam chair good morning Mister Farish Martin center and I got it meant My stomach is queasy and my heart's beating fast just from this previous conversation. Because it's it's really clear justice has a car has a cost and that's why we are here this record budget. I often times will go to court with my consists of a constituent you know just to try to help them get through the process. It almost never fails that there will be issues a number thirty people sitting court and when the question is I ask who needs a public defender everybody who needs a public defender line up over here along the wall. That wall then immediately feels that with people who need a public defender and there will be three or four people who can afford to hire an attorney. And my question is answered with the a with the cost of justice that we say is we're gonna make sure it's fair to everybody. Without any sense of disparagement and recognize and it's a tough job and lot of hello four public defenders. If you have a loved one that was in that line. Or if any of us had a loved one who is in that line that I just described. Should we assume that that public defender that I usually see in court. Or and whoever's gonna address defend that person. Do they have the capacity as forest time in preparation to make sure my loved one your loved one is going to get representation just like that person who was able to hire a private attorney that the pencil that that public defender that court that you're looking at is full time or part time in all likelihood. That public defender said good chances part time now there may be another part time person in that office or two more. But then you're talking about divining thirty cases for that day just that one day amongst free people. And if someone more why your B. felonies the maybe only to those are qualified to get those cases. And so it's always an assignment issue and I can. Fully appreciate what you're saying because often say there certain types of cases and with all due respect everyone in here if my loved one or my child was stored for the certain certain type of case. I would I would have the money to hire an attorney to represent him or her adequately meaning experts in from a from a local standpoint of view we always want to thank our loved one is innocent of the crime and so we want the best for them. but when you start talking about what hiring psychologist psychiatrist talk about fetal alcohol syndrome Addicted mothers term birth let's get real expensive real fast what is the stated explicit responsibility of a public defender what what is that the state is supposed to be guaranteeing to a person who gets a poo has a public defender to try to make sure that justice is equal the law requires adequate representation Lois clears you don't you don't get the best lawyers obviously although I think we've got some excellent earnings because I like to say we have more experience in the criminal court room than the average private criminal defense lawyers were in there so much adequate representation and when they need assistance as far system point of an expert they come to me at the commission maybe farms person may be psychologist psychiatrist they will submit a request to me I review it to see what they will determine whether or not that's in furtherance of the defense. Four I will also look at the young lawyers who may not know what they're asking for and say that's not what you need you need this in state or you need to go down this road. When I get requests in on real low grade felonies lady felonies. having been a prosecutor myself my first response is go back to that prosecutor see when you can get a misdemeanor that put this thing down in District Court in move it get it over with. Okay sent two more quick things are just make a quick I am watching the time thing okay sure and I guess this is something I can follow up with the off line but as I said in these courtrooms as I see what happens and these this overload it appears and I'm I'm putting emphasis on appears there is an awful lot of plea bargaining going on that feels as if people this is a short cut to justice that somehow we just don't have the time or the capacity with the public defenders to go through a whole process that way I'd want my love going to be able to do so and I'll talk most of my last question if that has anything to do with the cost representation I became aware of you know maybe two or three years ago A cases where they're elderly people who don't have family to advocate for them and decisions are made and I think it has something to do with public defenders I'm not sure about whether or not that person is going to get this if they're on the verge of I I think expiring Adani they don't have representation is that something that public defenders have to come to their aid or do they have representation I believe you're speaking of an adult protective services case with the department of Human Services will take someone into custody because they're unable to care for themselves and they don't have family members to do so. Once they get into departments custody in their medically evaluated at some point if a determination is made that there are at the end of life for Methods of resuscitation. Could possibly do more harm than good. The state department of Human Services has the authority to ask the court to issue a do not resuscitate order for the medical people under certain guidelines the medical staff has to provide FOR were pointed at the first tee and when they come in the custody but we keep that case when we see a motion for a do not resuscitate order our position is judge center for hearing we will never never I don't think it's appropriate by self we will never concede to in order to allow our client today. I don't think that's appropriate if that person one of the I do not so state order. They could have gotten one earlier in life if they knew about it and my friends at DHS of even said when you take him into custody in their competent asking then do they want one because it they won't one well the way who are we to guess whether they wanted or. That you have you have what you need to cover those kind of cases is that the case or is not so I'm trying to the same lawyers they handle the criminal case handling those to handling those as well and the handling juvenile court family mental commitments okay thank you yes ma'am all right of senator bond you're recognized for a question. I promise not to ask another question all day okay good. Go ahead. Make it about the budget and that's that's the question so have we ever run the numbers on what it would cost to I know we don't have equal numbers of prosecutors and public defenders we understand that but the opportunity for equal pay seems to be important have we run the numbers on what it would cost within the budget to have equal pay opportunities for part time public defenders and all public defenders on par with the prosecutors Senator I've been in this position for right at six years and during my period of time we have not could we do that and send it out to the members of this committee so that leaves have that information I mean we have a lot of talk equal justice and that seems to be an important measure so I think that it would be good for this committee to know that number plates are as easy by Mr McMahon with proscar corners office and I go back thirty years even though reversers for friends and I will share with them and I'm confident he will share with me as well thank you. Thank you ladies and gentleman seeing no other questions I need a motion for executive recommendation I have a motion to have a second alright all those in favor say aye those opposed no. Motion passes thank you so very much thank you manager. Yes we need it to come to the table please. Today the only audit that we will be dealing with is the one on game and fish commission. That's next on our agenda. Any P. would nine if you would to introduce yourself for the record thank you. All right in the audit funding is right behind the engine. Thank you madam chair. I'm Tammy Shaw with legislative audit. The Arkansas game and fish commission had two findings for the year ended June thirty twenty eighteen and those findings are located on page eight of that audit finding docket packet. The first finding was a self reported theft of property for which incident and police reports were filed. The second finding addressed fix asked it fixed assets that were not sufficiently distinguishable by their recorded description and lacked adequate identification on structures. The agency has since developed and implemented a process to remedy this issue thank you madam chair that concludes the audit findings all right any questions seeing none thank you very much. All right the Hannah not to be presenting you're recognized thank you madam chair and a night bureau of legislative research. The game and fish commission budget request can be found in the Arkansas game and fish commission budget manual because there are constitutional agency they'll have their own separate budget manual that you can find in front of you and they will not have an executive recommendation. The first page of their budget request can be found on page nine. The Arkansas game and fish commission's mission is to conserve and enhance Arkansas's fish and wildlife and their habitats while promoting sustainable use public understanding and support the department appropriations summary can be found on page sixteen. The commission has a total of five appropriations the agency request is about one hundred and forty one million dollars each year the overall agency total request remains the same as fiscal year twenty one authorized amounts however there will be re allocations that I will point out as we go through the manual. Funding for the commission consisted of existing fund balances and conservation tax as well as federal special and other revenue sources. The first appropriation is the operations appropriation and can be found on page seventeen. This appropriation consists of existing fund balances and conservation tax as well as federal special and other revenue sources the agency is requesting one million one hundred and fifteen thousand dollars from their capital outlay line item to be reallocated. One million of which will be reallocated to the grants in a line item while the other one hundred and fifteen thousand will be reallocated to the uniform Lowrance line item. The agency is also requesting one million dollars to be reallocated from the construction line item to the personal services line item. Lastly the agency is requesting two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to be reallocated from the hog eradication program appropriation which can be found on page twenty one in your manual to be split between the extra help and operating expenses line items for this appropriation. Well speaking with the agency they stated they would continue implementing this program but all future expenditures of this program will be absorbed in their operations appropriations. These reallocation will better reflect anticipated expenditures and the upcoming biennium the total increase of this appropriation would be two hundred and fifty thousand dollars over the fiscal year twenty one authorized amounts for fiscal year twenty two and twenty three. The second appropriation is the gas lease revenue appropriation and can be found on page eighteen. This appropriation is funded by special revenue for fiscal year twenty two and twenty three and is also funded by existing fund balances for fiscal year twenty two only. A total of three million dollars from several line items in this appropriation have been requested by the agency to be reallocated to create a new line item title natural disaster response. The agency says that this reallocation is to ensure adequate appropriation in the event of a natural disaster because they are a disaster response agency there is no change in the overall total of this appropriation from the fiscal year twenty one authorized. The third appropriation is the conservation partners program grant appropriation and can be found on page nineteen. This appropriation reflects the donation to the hunters feeding the hungry program through the online licensing system these donations are the program's main funding source and can be found on the other funding sources line. The agency is requesting a continuation of the fiscal year twenty one authorized amounts for fiscal year twenty two and twenty three there are no changes all bills. The fourth appropriation as the Black River settlement appropriation and can be found on page twenty in your manual. This appropriation is funded by one time settlement monies from the Dave Donaldson Black River wildlife management area judgment and is used exclusively for medication to the hardwood timber destruction and the wildlife management area the agency is requesting a continuation of the fiscal year twenty one authorized amounts for fiscal year twenty two and twenty three there are no change of oils. The fifth and final appropriation is the feral hog eradication appropriation and can be found on page twenty one in your manual. The agency believes this line item is no longer necessary and are requesting a deletion of the hog eradication program appropriation they would like to reallocate the two hundred and fifty thousand dollars from this appropriation to their operations appropriation as previously discussed their operations appropriation will absorb all future expenditures of this program that concludes my presentation madam chair all right thank you we have for a question Representative Beck. Thank you madam chair of. It is now with this on of. On page eighteen there's looks like there's excess funds. Close to five million dollars resting for. Funding for four million dollars we have excess funds of because of five million. There my reading their own yeah. Can I get that yes can. Yes Sir I get out eighteen I see a on column the first column there for fiscal year twenty you're looking at the bottom that is that four point eight million is the right number yes that is the fund balance they have you can see. If if you stay on the call in the beginning of the fiscal year twenty there fund balance was four million eight hundred and six thousand dollars and then at the end of the year on June thirty it went up seventy thousand dollars. But that is a fine balance that they're carrying indicate you are correct. And then again. On page twenty. It looks like there was a lot of fund balances from excessive money on. In nineteen to. Two thousand nineteen two thousand twenty that was also carried over yes Sir it looks like there's funding centers there thirteen point three million yes Sir. It's eighteen million dollars sitting in excess on some more. Those are those are fund balances that were collected for a specific purpose that they carry forward from year to year and yes those that's that is what that is. If you see in the department's summary on page sixteen. You can see their total fund balance at the end of the year for all their councils fifty seven point two million. The that's the second last number and friends in the first column. Thank you. All right to a Representative for you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair can you please explain to me what our get rid of the ratification of the feral hog funding. We're not getting rid of the program over here I'm sorry I know it's so hard to say yes hi represented by they're not getting rid of the feral hog eradication program they I have been using expenses from the operations line item because they haven't been receiving enough revenue in the feral hog eradication appropriation so they decided it would be best to just delete this appropriation and house all future expenditures of the program absorbed from their operations line item which they were doing anyways. Okay thank you madam chair all right to a Representative Cavenaugh. Funds for the agency. All right. A Representative della Rosa is your question for the agency. Our for the presenter hi I really don't know who can answer it so we can we can start with her if that's all right all right go go ahead of I actually have the same question as Representative Beck but mine was on the operations page I'm not so concerned you know about having judgment money left over things like that but the X. as appropriation the excess funding for this year is almost forty million dollars that's getting carried over and of course it shows you know naturally it'll be spent but I guess what I don't understand is is why is the actual so much less than what the budget was and what the budget is going forward I mean it's. Forty million dollars difference which is fifty percent higher than what they actually spent that's a that's a pretty big amount of money yes ma'am they are a natural disaster response agency and so a lot of those access findings are preventative. I think will last the agency to come in as well so would you please do that. He would come to the table and to introduce yourself for the record. I'm Jamie Fisher I'm the chief financial officer with game and fish. Good morning pet fee it's director Arkansas game and fish thank you the first will go to the represented Cavenaugh and then back to Representative della Rosa. Thank you madam chair over here to the left in my little call for a quick question on page seventeen of your appropriation request where it says regular salaries your historic spend has been as high as like twenty nine point six million dollars but you're requesting an increase to thirty nine point five million dollars. Over the Speaker and and twenty twenty that's ten point three million dollars you're only asking to add eighteen positions. If I do the math that's five hundred seventy three thousand three hundred ninety eight dollars each for those eighteen positions why such the increase in salaries. So there's no request for increased our appropriation regular salaries there's also not a request to increase positions. If you look on your appropriation your acts I'm talking about your actual spin why you need an additional ten point three million dollars based upon what your historic spend has only been the most is bad faith thirty million it's almost thirty million but you're asking for thirty nine five why is there such a difference between actual and. Ask for appropriation. That is to remain consistent with what we've had for numerous fiscal years and that's not and ask for an increase we actually don't have enough appropriation currently to cover if we were to hire the full six hundred thirty positions we remain well under our cap on positions so that just insure we have adequate appropriation we've never come close to that that should ensure that we have enough for Mr madam chair yes well if you're asking for six hundred thirty you have six hundred and twelve you actually spent twenty nine point two million dollars on those actual salaries you're saying that if you had six hundred and thirty the G. would spend three point five three point thirty nine point five million dollars. That's an increase of ten point three million. Dollars. Based on your actual spin. So if you're saying that you haven't funded everybody fully. That's only eighteen positions different. So I guess I'm confused why eighteen positions would increase H. five five hundred seventy three thousand I know it's just ask what I'm trying to get your **** close to what you're real spending is. I want to get your average positions give me just a moment and that pays. Because I want to what we carry in our average positions I think is important for what our cap on positions is yes. Just a moment. I think we average of round. Eighty if not mistaken the last ten years and physician. And again this is just to remain constant it's not an intent to increase and we do self manage our own pay plan so that's part of their quest as well. Information I believe we carry around five hundred eighty five average positions. But on I'm looking at jester operations line not your other. This is the only fund center that contains salary salary so it's going to contain them all and you think it's like five hundred and eighty three yes about five eighty five average positions okay thank you. All right. A Representative della Rosa. Thank you thank you madam chair right here in front. I had a question about your excess funding for this year it shows you guys have a close to forty million dollars in the fund balance left over that's about fifty percent higher than what you even spent this year I mean that's that's more than the entire conservation tax itself sitting in a fine balance why is that there and also is is there a way that I can get historical the historical funding and spend on this because I I don't know where to find that for past years it it's probably in the pile on my desk I just don't know if thanks to its. Okay You. I think it's page nineteen. Red. So to speak to the fund balance a little bit twenty as we all know is a little bit of an unusual year fiscal year twenty we the last quarter three to four months of the fiscal year when the pandemic kit we made some really conservative moves and froze positions and did not hire anyone during that last quarter we also reduce spending we saw a significant decrease in our expenditures and some of our major categories because the landscape of our agency changed we moved essentially all of our employees fully remote as did most of the state agency and I'm still continue to do so with about half of our employees currently so I think that balances reflective of the activity of the last four months and then really unprecedented sales tax revenue that we didn't anticipate I we were really unsure what our revenue streams it look like we do not receive any general revenue so we have to self manage our cash flow so that's part of that as well so we saw an increase in the conservation sales tax that we didn't anticipate that last quarter we reduced. As we reduced we we held a hiring freeze and then we were conservative with our expenditures during that period so that's a large contributing factor to all that balance that you see there so. You said that. House like somebody please tell me about the about one of the staff is going to help you can find what I'm trying to dig into in this in this book So you said you you moved to a lot of your employees to remote. Do you plan to keep them that way we actually as an agency do you want to come on. Sure we all of. We we have about half of them back of our offices are open to the public with obviously of safety measures built in of the same with all or staffing we want to certainly have enough staff to meet the needs of the public who were who were requiring our services but also allow that flexibility to allow some of the employees with with certain reasons not to come back to that public setting to operate remotely. Okay thank you madam chair I'll get back in the queue if I've got questions about the all right we'll spend now that they so kindly showed me where to find. A Representative would recognize for question. Thank you Mr chairman. First of all director fits our extend my condolences to you and your family for your recent loss. sure there were those Lee if you would. I've got a question regarding personnel and you show of a six hundred and thirty or authorized and at the end of August on a report that you submitted to Leslie research showed five hundred and sixty eight positions fail which left sixty two positions vacant but in the vacant position report. That I have here is of the twelfth of October it's only showing eighteen positions so I'm trying to differentiate between the two. Yes Sir so of the earlier figure you're showing came at a time when we were up on certain of what the what the economy was going to do and what our income was look like so we put on a hiring freeze and to try to of build a little surplus to help us bridge something frankly that we've never seen before of since since we have experienced A left in license fee and and Lysons sales and that the conservation sales tax has remained higher than what we anticipated of we have a on law the hiring freeze to some extent we still are looking very closely at positions as we bring them back again but it's not a total lock down we're in the process of bringing of those new hires and just one example is were were currently looking at hiring nine wildlife officers so we have several openings right now and several hires that are being completed so I'm sure that second number is a reflection of that. Thank you I believe that number may also include our extra help our full time positions at the end of separate apps at the end of September was five hundred sixty three based on my information sixty three five sixty three was all time and we had sixty or extra help so the the number okay also. Thank you I guess what what we're concerned about or concern and and I've had other members that have express this to me. Is the difference between fill positions occupied positions and authorized positions and and and tying up that money the but maybe not could be used for in your case other programs is a relates to all of state government not could be used and and the the another agency or in a given agency but if we're tied up several hundred thousands of dollars in salaries that are budgeted and not go on the use because I have found some positions that have been taken from two two thousand and five two thousand and fifteen two thousand and seventeen in in this list that I use relative to your eighteen positions versus is sixty to me and and the in the numbers that you gave or the and found wrote the two vacant positions so that's that's the reason for the questioning in that. I guess my question is do you need all sixty two positions that are vacant. Yes Sir absolutely we're short handed and I'm certainly proud of our staff during this pandemic that have went above and beyond to make sure we're carrying out our mission across the state and they've care to have quite a heavy load in the absence of adding a new employee so we we're looking to balance that and to and to bring staff on right now to health calls offset that load for our current employees. Do you all do you do you have your own retirement insurance program that you're in the state we participate so you pay the four hundred twenty dollars a month for those sixty two employees even those those positions are vacant that's correct yes okay thank you thank you madam chairman all right of Representative Richmond you're recognized for a question thank you manager I'm over on the right front row you talking about the again let's go back to the surplus and the cost saving measures that you did. About how much of that money that you were able to save. was Sir can be given to those costs may saving measures that you did how much could be attributed to that do you have an estimate. I do not but I can get that information for you I am again we really were it was very and president and the amount of sales tax that we receive those last few months of the year I think this state experience that as a whole that is one of our three leading revenue sources and we were really shocked at what did come in the last quarter of the year so it's a combination of to reduce spending in the increase in the sales tax funds. A can you tell me then that the consummation saving measures that you had to reduce spending did that have any impact on the quality of service that you provided to the public. No Sir I would say there are existing employees be and public servant step the and and fill that void we tried very hard to although we were conserving as an agency we tried very hard for that not to translate into a drop off and service of to the public. And just one more thing madam chair. A so the what what we could do then is take your example and maybe share it with the the other agencies within the state to about the you may save money but you don't have to necessarily. Impact on the quality of service. Would you be willing to hold the maybe some training seminars to do that. We would certainly be glad to to share our experiences with whoever I would say that. A long term effort like this might be very difficult to maintain thank our employees of being very dedicated to the resource and as public servants of they kids day we're hopefully seeing the end of the of the tunnel if you will coming out the other side and although we're not there yet we all or there is four is starting to feel some of these positions so I don't know if it's the stables what I'm trying to say for FOR other agencies okay well I appreciate that because really the question wishes to see if you would to change course at some point in there and you didn't and so I commend you on that thank you very much right thank you Representative Dotson. Thank you madam chair right here in little. So I've got a couple of questions I'll try to start with the. Is this one first on your Black River Black River W. M. A. I'm not sure what that stands for restoration is that how long is this restoration expected to last and continuing is a one time settlement of funds and that's why you have a thirteen million dollar fund balance that you're transferring over just spending out yes Sir so we received a settlement in twenty fifteen so we've had the funds for five six fiscal years now it is for work done on that one wildlife management area and it that is completely whether contingent so the amount of work that we're able to accomplish really is contingent upon the conditions at that area so while best laid plans are that we get those funds spent and that that wildlife Yuri return to its natural state unfortunately we've not been able to do so as to the balance carries over and we continue that work is considered federal income and we do federal reporting on it as such so we do have a few more fiscal years to spend those funds down okay that's kind of what I was assuming but I wasn't completely sure to your appropriations regarding your regular salaries and operating expenses we've been looking at that I'm on page seventeen of your of your book here. just looking at it. Starting with the regular salaries thank. The represented touched on this you'd spent twenty nine million last year in actual expenses but you're asking for thirty nine million in appropriation I looked of your tenure history and. Two years ago in twenty eighteen nineteen was your biggest spend a twenty nine point six million that year on salaries are you really anticipating spending thirty nine million this next year no Sir that is the director spoke to we are re filling some of those positions and we will as we self manager on pay plan have to make our own decisions about any cost of living increases are merits so I think that's part of that that you see reflected there and that appropriation request to how much to anticipate that to actually be our three year average on expenditures kind of speaking to what you said I was twenty nine point two the last three fiscal years twenty nineteen eighteen so I would anticipate that it'll be around the same twenty nine to thirty million again so so you're expecting thirty million expenses roughly maybe thirty and a half million. But you're asking for almost nine million more than that we just need to access the preparation that much more just to ensure that we have that flexibility and do you have why we bring in new hires we don't know exactly what those positions will start at if they'll come in is what you know entry level or mid level OR where will bring them and that and that'll affect that so with I mean thirty two thirty three million cover all of that part of that also has to do with our officers and incentive pay and certification pays and if they respond some of that adds on to the line item for regular salaries and that is not something that we can predict so I think there's an element of it there that is the first responders that feeds into our salary expenditures we haven't seen in the last few fiscal years probably about ten years ago with some of the ice storms and and those things we had some higher expenditures there I believe I can go back and get that information I think it's going to make sure that we have enough appropriation there if necessary if those officers to respond okay and similarly with their operating expenses line item on that page Lester spent twenty three and a half million I think the tenure high was in seventeen eighteen of twenty nine point three million But you're asking for almost thirty five million and expended in appropriation authority which is in all eleven million more than what you spent last year yes and I will speak again to being the first responders in the state and some of those funds if there is a disaster dependent upon if it's on our areas this last year we were heavily impacted at art are pine bluff nature center and we had a couple million dollars where the front of Asians there that were necessary the center had to shut down due to flooding we don't have the opportunity to come back and ask for additional funding at peer outside of legislative session so that's part of it as well as to ensure that we have adequate flexibility if there are disasters that we as an agency after respond to from a personal standpoint as well as an expenditure an appropriation operating stand realize you couldn't come back that's my understand that we cannot outside of session so this is to ensure that we have adequate appropriation you can learn something new everyday and then finally on hog eradication Getting rid of the two hundred fifty thousand dollar appropriation. Looks like you had a sixty three thousand dollar fund balance that you're carrying over but what we're told is that. You're not spending enough or you're you're not there's not enough in their in order to I guess that you're spending more out of operations than what that program was allowed for. We actually have not received any fine revenues related in the last few fiscal years to the feral hog program so that was operating funds that were transferred down to that fund center to spend we spent as you can see there the sixty that expenditures last year the hundred forty three out of that fund center but out of our operating we spent five hundred forty thousand so total is an agency in FY twenty we spent six hundred eighty three thousand towards the efforts to eradicate feral hogs so it's just not reflected in this fun center we are taken at two fifty and moving it up and are operating so that we can continue those efforts and will continue to maintain somewhere between that same funding levels remaining of focus for the agency absolutely no that's what I want to get out and would it possibly be better to move at the other direction so that we can have an idea of what's actually being spent on hog eradication we track all our expenditures within the asus system I with the BBS elements in their specific ones cost centers and WBS elements for those efforts so we can get you a report within an hour of all that information but salaries benefits in operating expenditures spent towards those efforts okay that would be helpful to be an absolutely in future years especially I thank. Alright ladies and gentleman we have of quite a few on the queue but I'd like to go back to Representative Cavenaugh and then representatives della Rosa for the quick follow up a to their questions but this is actually in the question but not a follow up madam chair but thank you mind is going to be a real quickly with page seventeen again a grants and aid. you were asking for seven million but you're only able to put out four point seven million and I know in my area in particular that I'd get letters from you where I got people that have been applied and in a they've been awarded haven't done that is that a problem that you see that's why we're not able to give out all the funds but I she had people who simply are not applying for these grants and aids that you're offering. I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing when you say applying for grants and aids is that that conservation scholarships that you're speaking to you have a line item on seventeen yes ma'am yes we we pay a lot of things out of the assistance provided a lot of our partnerships and things flow through that as well so we have several programs that we pay it out of that that you've just your appropriate at seven million but you're only able to spend four point seven and so I just curious since I've gotten the letters that we have areas that are not apply not spending what they've been a lot allocated that they could actually have I was wondering is that a problem across the state. In in a loop in a way yes of the specific grant you're talking about is the outward facing grant of generated from five dollars from game and fish violations of these are turned back around to the counties in which the violation occurred they go to the schools and conservation districts for conservation work and of it is very surprising that we do have some balances and some of the counties that are that are not being utilized in the the letter you're talking about is an effort to we want those dollars utilize we want to go back to those counties we know the schools of need funding and we certainly know that there's an opportunity here to do that so the letter is in response to that I'm without it right in front of me I think that we typically put out of five hundred fifty thousand dollars annually and and some counties just just don't ask for it so we we would like to see all those dollars go out nail to what ms Fisher was referring to on the larger appropriation we we apply for lots of grants throughout the year to help offset state dollars and sometimes they come in at the last minute or you didn't know whatever competitive and we want to make sure that that appropriations there to shift to those dollars yes I appreciate that I it was it was interesting to me that I had to call school inside you know you got money after that you can be applied for and I just didn't know if that was a problem across the state that you see exist that maybe there's some way we can make it more noticeable to on or anything like that I would appreciate any help you could give us there now I will say the vast majority of the counties that gobbled up pretty quick yes they do but there are some counties there and I I don't really under. And what the limiting factor is as far as that application process but we're we're reaching out to those people with our local staff and any help that you all can give us in that a Reyno be much appreciated I hate to see schools that are needing funding so desperately not tapping into a little bit that game and fish can offer thank you all right Janet of Representative della Rosa. Thank you madam chair So I have gone back and looked at what you're expenditures were historically for this appropriation into the operations line. And I'm gonna need some further explanation because you said that the reason that it was low this time with the eighty four million five fifty five is because you guys For let some people and you know some people are working from home and and things like that. But if you go back and look at the past years the highest you've ever spent in any year was ninety three million no where close to the hundred and twenty five million that is showing in here so hundred twenty three I'm sorry in the funding and I'd like to ask death if I can get with the funding has been historically by year because what I've what it looks like it's happening I don't know if it's what's happening but what it looks like it's happening is you guys. Have way more money than you need and that's coming in the form of a tax and we have no control over any of that once we approve what comes through here the money just flows to you because you're constitutionally independent we don't have any way to control any of that and by the what I'm looking at here it looks like you don't even need the conservation tax and those of us on this side of the plexiglass. those of us on this side of the place you guys are looking for ways to cut taxes especially in the sales tax department because our sales taxes are extraordinarily high in Arkansas we get a lot of complaints about that I think everybody in this room does so my question is what is this tax need to exist if you guys aren't spending it if it's not necessary for your operation and historically doesn't look like it is well I've I'd like to respond it would be devastating for us not to receive that those tax dollars of some of the balance that you're seein came from measures all and of dealing with the pandemic of some of it is remaining revenues from years gone past all and gas lease dollars that came may and that we are shifting this year to operate in the disaster mode so when a natural disaster here it's we can respond financially right the end without adjusting or budgets we do have a operating reserve that helps those from a business standpoint get through times of low license sales and dips if you will and of the conservation sales tax a week helps keep the the business the cash flow side of level and me think if there's. And of course the of ballots that in the restricted funds for Black River that we would desperately like to spend but cannot because of weather and that's near thirteen million dollars well the the Black River is a separate appropriation that when you're spending down that judgment so that doesn't have anything to do with but I'm asking I'm asking about what's in this appropriation with operations and. I mean it just looks to me like you've you're getting more revenue fifty percent more revenue than what you actually need and I'm not saying we should cut that down to you know so that they match exactly because I do understand you know your cash flow and all of that but if we're talking about disaster type situations or anything like that and we have other funds for things like that we have a rainy day we have other funds for things that mean that's the whole point of us having that but we control that the legislature controls that where is what's happening right now with game and fish is we've just allocated special revenue and that sales tax just goes directly to you and after it's gone through this body right here that that's it it's all in it's all in your pocket to spend as you see fit and I'm just saying I think that it it looks too high I'd like to take the opportunity was were mixed in a couple of things here so our last three years worth of fiscal year revenues have been approximately ninety to ninety three million are expenditures have been anywhere from eighty five to ninety and so we're carrying that cash balance board because of fluctuation in timing of when we receive those receipts right now it's hunting season we receive that cash flow and it's heavy right now we were unexpected revenue up turn last fiscal year in the conservation sales tax as well as our license sales so some of that balance as reflected cash balance that fund balance that you're looking at is reflective of that so our annual revenues are around ninety to ninety two million and our annual expenditures around eighty five roughly so the cash balance that there is also has to do with a little bit of the timing part of that balance that you see is designated for COPD or conservation license plate fund which is about three and a half million of that thirty eight so there's some designations within that the don't really pop out out of that page when you look at that total number so for us are higher expenditure period in our heavy production period if you will in terms of output is in the spring with our fisheries division our wildlife division and so are expenditures will go up but our cash flow will be really low that time of year historically. twenty being the exception FY twenty being the exception so some of this I think we're mixing just a little bit with those fund balances jump out look like on a page first is the day to day operating of our agency alright yeah if it's if if your income is closer to the ninety million normally I've got no issue with that but that's why I'm asking staff if they can provide eggs I don't have that in front of me all I have is what was came in last year and what the expenditures amend for prior years so if I can get that I would really appreciate that. Stamp will get that for you alright moving on up Representative A Lanny Fite you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair of director fields how much of that eight of the cent sales tax do you receive. We get forty five percent of the one eighth of one percent okay in my understanding the one eight cent can't be taxed at a lower level is that correct like a sixteenth or something like that I think by state law one eight this lotion you can tax it my correct I'm not sure on the one to answer that. If a kid in. A well I haven't researched madam chair thank you of but I do know that it's in the constitution is one eight cents so I would be shocked if they could do anything other than that okay okay in the surplus that you have do you have plans for that surplus. Yes Sir of obviously the the the part that we pulled forward from the pandemic we will slowly put back out into the into the resource around the state and the and we also will be moving all and infrastructure repairs that are needed and things of that nature we. We don't want to be sitting on a big cash balance that's not our intention at all we want those dollars on the landscape around the state providing a resource enjoyment for for the public of our CFO just mentioned we were very surprised at the up turn in the conservation sales tax revenue collections during a pandemic with with unprecedented unemployment we were surprised at that in and we were very pleasantly surprised when we sell or a constituent around the state turning to the outdoors as a recreation and were that's reflective in our license sales right now that's not been the case prior to last year we've seen a of fifteen percent decrease in in hunting Lysons and you eighteen percent decrease in fishing license over the last five years so this is a very good up turn and I can promise you that revenues that are collected will be turned out words to a great deal in need around the state. Okay we can help you with those surplus also if you need help. Thank you madam chair I did he want to mention one other thing as it relates to the disaster response we do see receive federal reimbursement on that from FEMA but those dollars are delayed in incoming so we can't certify that revenue until the disaster is declared and we're recipient of those funds so that's part of that reserve as well as being able to be flexible and immediately respond when needed all right thank you okay Senator hammer you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair I'm over here and I was one if you could explain some to me on your handout it says game protection fund what exactly is at or why is that class fighter that wording use that way please that's our primary operating fund I think that's just a carry Ford of language that it to my knowledge we've used for quite some time. So are there any limitations that you have that when you see surplus funds in one area that you can't move it across the board to the other areas were. There are needs that might be expressed you by legislators or the general public. It's my understanding we are locked into those commitment items that we're asking for today so the the authorization that we received today we have to stay within those side boards up for instance the assistance grants and aid that was discussed earlier we want to ensure that if we do receive additional funding that we have the flexibility to use it in that manner. And so the projects that Representative fight was just referring to you already have those slotted in one of these in one of these categories or any any these categories is that correct. Yes Sir that's dates that's correct we have a lot of projects that are holding and pending of so we have a pretty good list of things to move for but yes there within those side board. And maybe you set aside your own I just didn't listen but I would we get a list of the projects that you're looking at doing. We can get your list if you're talking about infrastructure is it boat ramps and things of that nature yes Sir just how it spread out across the state yes years as to how the funds are distributed across the state equally so that there's you know representation of all the state with the money she plan on using what we could provide you that okay like to get that please thanks to any if you wouldn't mind please send it to a Kevin Anderson and he'll distributed to the rest of the committee all right thank you very much all right to a Representative Ladyman you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair I'm right here straight in front of you. Thank you. A I have a question on the Black River settlement you know thirteen point two million dollars looks like of that excess is in that fund and a it's designated but you know you you spent three on a five thousand and it looks like the first expenditure of that was back in twenty fifteen. So can you explain it shows over in twenty twenty one twenty twenty two twenty three agency but the executive has zero can you can explain what is that what we're that money come from what's the plan to spend it and why is it not being spent yes Sir so on the the Black River settlement we are we would love to move forward and repair the damage that was called in that of the weather has absolutely and and it's not just weather related we're still having some ongoing issues with water releases above of that area that is keeping the area where and we just cannot get in there to to do the work that we are doing some we're doing improving drainage and things of that nature that we can do in a wet area but were were really frustrated with the inability to get in there and two of a repair the damage that it's been cost and continues so what sections the Black River you talking about we're talking about it the. On the on or WMA up north just below the Missouri line a county I'm not sure what county it is off the top of my head around Pocahontas maybe with the flooding was it's even above that okay this money come from it came from a court settlement with the corps of engineers it was a lawsuit. Okay so you do have a plan it right to to spend the money yes I mean is there a project I mean that we got any information on what you have planned yes we we have a plan I'm sure they're still more hydrology and things of that nature that has to be done to finalize what that plan would look like frankly were we're struggling to get a lot of that done as well but we do have a plan and we're still collecting that hydrology data to go to put together the final construction projects. Amend the interest in and seeing what you have on that and I think represent Cavenaugh and Davis would also be interested in that as well. So if you could give me that may be sent to the committee yes Sir. Thank you. Alright ladies and gentleman there know what the questions of I need a motion for a agency request a all right I have a motion to have a second alright all those in favor say aye all those opposed motion passes. Alright it we're going on to the claims. Commission. And I believe a. This night is a report you're recognized. Thank you madam chair hand the night bureau of legislative research. The claims commission budget requests can be found in your manual starting on page seven. The claims commission is a body established here claims against the state of Arkansas and it's agencies boards commissions an institution unless otherwise exam by statute. The department appropriations summary can be found on page eight. The commission has a total of three appropriations the agency requests and executive recommendation is about two point eight million each year. Funding for the commission consists of state central services and miscellaneous revolving funds. The first appropriation can be found on page ten. This is the operations appropriation which provides for personal services and operating expenses of the claims commission and is funded by the state central services fund the agency requests and executive recommendation is about six hundred and one thousand each year salary imagine just mince meat in the current biennium requested to continue into the next biennium. The second appropriation can be found on page twelve. This is the various claims appropriation which provides for the payment of small controversial claims non controversial claims and death benefit awards payments of these claims come from the miscellaneous revolving fund the agency is requesting a continuation of the fiscal year twenty one authorized in the amount of two point two five million dollars the executive recommendation provides for the agency request there are no changes levels. The third and final appropriation can be found on page fourteen. This is the firefighter benefit review panel appropriation the firefighter benefit review panel makes recommendations to the Arkansas state claims commission on death benefit awards the death benefit awards are paid out of various claims appropriation which was previously discussed on page twelve. This appropriation provides for the expense reimbursements FOR the review panel and is funded by the state central services fund the commission is requesting a continuation of the fiscal year twenty one authorized and the amount of eight thousand dollars. For the back for the biennium in the executive recommendation provides for the agency requests there no change opals that concludes my presentation madam chair. Thank you. I do not see any questions. Do. Hi does anyone want to bring in us to bring in the agency. All right seeing. No hands then I need a recommendation for executive brick. I have a motion have a second all those in favor say aye all those opposed motion passes by going on down to the ethics commission. Right you're recognized thank you madam chair hand I bureau of legislative research. The ethics commission budget request can be found in your manual starting on page thirty two. The ethics commission forces Arkansas standards of conduct and disclosure laws concerning candidates the commission has won appropriation which can be found on page thirty four in your manual. This is their operations appropriation which is funded by general revenue through the miscellaneous agencies fund. The agency request an executive recommendation is about nine hundred and seventy seven thousand each year the commission is also requesting a decrease of appropriation and the amount of eighteen thousand five hundred and seven dollars and operating expenses for the biennium when speaking to the agency they say that the appropriation included one time monies for a new website that was no longer necessary the executive recommendation provides for the agency requests this concludes my presentation madam chair all right thank you Representative della Rosa. Thank you madam chair in you you may have answered this already but you said that there were one time monies that were used this year for website yes was that under operating expenses is that why that's higher than what the budget was this one time yes it is that also why they're asking for the appropriation to be reduced down to a hundred ten going forward yes okay. I thank you that was it thank you. I does anyone want to A want us to call the agency in. All right seeing seeing no hands of. Anne the executive recommendation I have a motion to I have a second all right all those in favor say aye all those opposed motion passes by going on down to a. The judicial discipline and disability of this night you're recognized thank you madam chair the judicial discipline and disability is commission budget requests can be found on page one fifty three in your manual. The Arkansas judicial disability discipline and disability commission receives and investigates information complaints about the possible ethical misconduct or disability of Arkansas judges the commission has won appropriation that can be found on page one fifty five in your manual. This is their operations appropriation which is funded by general revenue through the miscellaneous agencies fund the agency request in the executive recommendation as a little over seven hundred and twenty thousand each year salary and matching adjustments made in the current biennium are requested to continue into the next biennium this concludes my presentation madam chair thank you. A dissing one want the agency brought in. All right seeing no hands A need a a motion for executive branch all right second are all those in favor say aye all those opposed motion passes. The public service commission is next and of this not you're recognized thank you madam chair. The public service commission budget request can be found in your manual starting on page one eighty one. The public service commission is charged with the duty of ensuring that public utilities provide safe adequate and reliable utility services at just and reasonable rates. The department appropriations summary can be found on page one eighty three. The commission has a total of four appropriations the agency request an executive recommendation is about fourteen million each year. Funding for the commission consisted of existing fund balances and special revenues derived from assessments paid by utility companies some federal revenues an ad valorem tax receipts. The first appropriation is the utilities operations appropriation and can be found on page one eighty five and you manual. This appropriation consists of existing fund balances and special revenues derived from assessments pay by utility companies and provides for the salaries and operations of the commission the agency is requesting about ten million each year of the biennium salary and matching adjustments made in the current biennium requested to continue into the next biennium a decrease of twenty one thousand dollars in capital outlay in the next biennium reflects one time money spent for the replacement of a state vehicle. The executive recommendation provides for this request. The second appropriation is the pipeline safety program and can be found on page one eighty seven in your manual. This appropriation is funded by special revenue inspection fees from charge to each company with pipeline mileage in the state and federal funding and provides monitoring of pipelines that carry hazardous materials. The agency request is about one million each year of the biennium this includes an increasing capital outlay of twenty six thousand dollars for the replacement of one state vehicle and fiscal year twenty three. Salary match adjustments made in the current biennium are requested to continue into the next biennium the executive recommendation provides for this request. The third appropriation as the tax division operations appropriations and can be found on page one eighty nine. This appropriations funding include special revenues from the public service commission fund and I'd valorem taxes the appropriation provides for the annual evaluation and ad valorem assessment of public utilities and carries operating an Arkansas. The agency request is about one point seven million each year of the biennium. Salary match adjustments made in the current biennium are requested to continue into the next biennium the executive recommendation provides for the agency request the fourth and final appropriation as the agency's contingency appropriation and can be found on page one ninety one in your manual. This appropriation provides additional spending authority that may be transferred to the division's operating line items in emergency situations that would require additional resources funding for this appropriation is from special revenue balances held in the public service commission fund to support any transfers that may be made. The agency request is one million dollars each year of the biennium and the executive recommendation provides for this request there are no changes all bills that concludes my presentation madam chair thank you all right to a Representative Murdock you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair action actually Representative gray sitting in the chair I'm over here. Am I maybe I just and not looking at this properly but as I look on page one eighty three I see how the request for twenty one twenty two is about two hundred thousand dollars more than what it's been in the past but then as I looked down at the funding sources I'm seeing a fund balance drop of about two point two million and then into twenty two twenty three it drops you know five million from where it's at right now and but I. No other revenue seem to change drastically worse that fund balance going with the being used for I don't see the expenses increasing enough to use the fund balance that big that was an estimation by the department of finance and would be a question for them okay I would like to do that madam chair all right thank you would you call the agency in please. Well the public's. The agency up at the table please. Mr believe if you'd like to also come forward. And if you would identify yourselves for the record please. I'm to Thomas the chairman of public service commission with me are done a great executive director Vicki home or fiscal officer and then director the tax division Sir Bradshaw also here in I lost I heard the first part of that. Yes the audio on the back part of that question all right to a Representative gray thank you madam chair so I'm over here and I was just looking at the fund balance we go from twenty twenty one six point eight million down to four point six and then down to one point eight million wide a large decrease in fund balance. Do not know the answer to that effect work with Vickie ward Donna well first you have a five year a check with the FAA office of budget you see this a lot with agencies that do have special revenue and fund balances like this where they'll certify and when I mean certify what I mean is all say we have this money over here and we would like the authority for the General Assembly did you to be able to spend it if something happens it'll and it could come up we might need to be able to use these monies other asking for years really appropriation so when you look at these budget manuals and you see like you're doing and like I do that big number in parentheses there the bottom and then you see it going down a lot of times that doesn't actually drop all the way down it's more of a contingency request in the event that something happens and they need to access those funds. Okay so we don't actually have a fund balance we absolutely do have a fund balance is more a question of whether or not they would to seek the appropriation from you all to use that fund balance in the event something happens in the biennium that they needed I'm not speaking necessarily for the PSC but that's more very typical for a lot of special revenue funding agencies. And Jake's thing and I don't know that this is driving at issue this time our pipeline safety offices funded by federal and in the shut down last time there were some timing differences I think we went over the so there might have been a double year and then this is the but I don't know that that's that's that issue. But it might be. Okay thank you. Did you have something you'd like to say if I was just going to add that the way that our assessment works that whatever that fund balance is each year that is in the office to what we affairs the utilities in that upcoming year so it self correcting or Jeff thing from year to year in terms of what we assess to collect from the utilities okay. Thank you all right of Representative Ladyman. Okay. Thank. Thank you madam chair of my question is on the appropriation summary on page one eighty five and just like to know it shows the positions number positions one eighty five to eighty nine and also also under extra help positions. You had zero this year and it continues six six were approved and it carries that on out to the next two years so my question is you know why are you adding for positions and why do you budget the money for extra help if you're not using that. We are not asking for any additional positions that first column is actual the eighty five is sexual but the budget has been consistently that eighty nine for the utilities division and we have had extra help in prior years but it just so happens that in that particular year we did not frequently we use that budget line item to attract a college interns we have had a couple from the university of Arkansas AT pine bluff that we have had in prior time period so. But just to stress that are number of employees has not changed it for many years we're still at an overall total so those are just unfilled positions is what you're saying yes Sir okay so the increase of that you're asking for like from five point seven five twenty that's just raises or changes in. Level of employment that all it is that's just the difference in actual number of employees and budgeted the first column be in the bed actual in the second be in the budget so we would endeavor to be fully staffed but with turnover it's you're not always able to do that. No when you look at twenty twenty verses twenty twenty one that goes up about a hundred and eighty thousand dollars or something like that that's just normal change in the pay scales. To a document twenty twenty twenty twenty one authorized in twenty twenty one twenty twenty two. Authorize the executive there's a difference there. Amendment due to salary and match jasmine's made in the current biennium things such as performance based increases in career service payments increase that number that was my question thank you thank you. The Representative della Rosa. Thank you madam chair and Mister we may need to come back up for this one Sir going back to Representative brace question regarding the excess funding it for the end of last year there were six point eight million dollars left over by the end of this year looks likes four point six that it goes down to one point eight and then where the whole one point one so what it appears to look like on this is that were burning through the access that they were using it up at least in terms of the plan because it it showing you know that the you're gonna be spending approximately fourteen point two million dollars per year so it looks like that fund balances going down however. If you look at last year you only spent ten million and some change and so I went back and look historically you know maybe this was an unusual year you always spent ten million and some change so. Basically what I'm saying is I don't think that fund balances going to go down I think the fund balance is going to keep going up and it's not showing on this page because you're showing of fourteen point two million dollars spent or or appropriation request it's not actually gonna burn for that money as quickly as it appears on this page and that's what I'm trying to figure out it I mean are we burning through the excess funds are are we actually accumulating more going forward. So I can. I can answer some of that just from the standpoint of kind of how the budget is is set up and You know we use the term budget a lot and and it's a little bit of a misnomer for what we're doing here in the legislature because when you talk about having the plan to go forward what we're doing here is we're really asking your approval to spend money in the event. Any number of things Mike could happen so when we lay out the appropriation for the agency's what we're asking for is legislative approval that may or not may or may not actually be the agency's internal plan for operations what they're trying to do is think contingency situation what's going to happen down the the road so you're right Wall their average expenditures may only be ten million they have a look at what might happen I'm putting words in the amount they they might correct me and they said we you know we've we've got some settlements we've got something going on where we might need to dip into that fund balance in order to maintain operations you're absolutely correct in that if if everything continues I think as it has been in the past that fund balance may not in fact disappear but in the current fiscal year the for example you see that budget amount if they have to use the appropriation that they requested and received to carry out the business of the public service commission the net public that that fund balance would decrease from six point eight million down four point six million and so forth and so forth going forward but if we come back a year from now on the fiscal session and look at that number it may not in fact go down because they may not fact need to use all that appropriation. What would and I can assure you there isn't a problem that were under recovering for something and we're gonna come in here saying you know we're under covering and we need this because our fund balance dips that that is not what's going on another can a wildcard out there's we have a one million dollar contingency thing. AS refunded at the end of the year that would have for a long time. In that that what what what could go wrong at that level for us it is litigation and that was created during the grand golf issue and and we have a system agreement issue. That if you have skilled litigation now we have another statute that helps with that but if we had a large pipeline disaster a nuclear issue that resulted in litigation that that's the key driver of a. four one million dollar contingency thing. Well that those actually gonna be the question then because if if the way this is planned out is to take care of contingencies which is what I hear actually with a lot of different agencies then why does this one have specifically an extra one million dollars for contingency if it's not already built in to the fact that you have access appropriation and here in the funding for it so the contingency request would be four appropriation. And and if that it appropriation is used what you're talking about is actual fund right the million dollar yes because we assess that we get the money then we we don't use it to end of the year we refunded and and it's in the assessment next time sort to cycle that's what director gray was talking about. Would you turn to use the word self correcting I'm I don't think I'm answering your question I appeared the look on my face is I'm not following what you're saying is it doesn't make sense to me that we have a million dollar contingency appropriation line in here but at the same time we also have excess appropriation in every other line. Which is why this fund balance looks like it's going down going for that historically you're not spending that much so it it's almost like we're we're doing it twice there's there's there's double contingency or there's more than one so the contingency that you're talking about is a specific thing for grand all right well or is not limited to that but the contingency that we worry about is mass litigation from a what in our business would be a large nuclear pipeline utility infrastructure disaster and those things are built at scale when they go wrong make a wrong and scale and a grand goal of. Thing which for those of you who were who were eight thereof and remember a big deal it was. and Chris we paid four point five billion dollars for that plan from litigation with Louisiana and it's that kind of contingency but that million dollars is for and then separate and apart from that. if you look at the tax division the pipeline utilities division there's some flexibility in there so they have to eat those individual divisions for whatever happens there might need to increase their spending or somehow another change their operations they would have that flexibility. The pro the reason it's walkie was when we had the federal government shut down the pipeline division I think seventy percent of that money is a reimbursed after the fact by the feds so there was one year we didn't get a payment for the shut down so we got to thirty two years of next year if you look at over the long time at all it evens out but there was one want the thing ninety. My recollection might be incorrect on the precise dates but that would make it look like he was twice as much one year and half as much the next and zero the year before two years prior well I think that what I'm saying is is we have two areas in here where we're building and FOR contingency and and my point is if you're going to have a line in here that says contingency I think you should build it into that line so that we over here know what it is you're because that's a forty percent difference between what you're spending verses the appropriation that's really significant and if you have a valid argument you know it's legal expenses or whatever it may be that's fine but put it in the contingency line so that we understand that because most of them don't have that built in that way with the contingency line and just say well we've got some extra built in in case a beer see happens but in this case it's it's kind of hidden and plain and that's what's so confusing on on my side is all right you know I mean if you if you want to keep the same amount fine but it just put it all in the contingency so you can say well this is in case of legal fees so that we understand where the money is supposed to be going that's that's my point with it thank you after. Did you have a comment no no and I understand complete what she's saying thank you all right thank you Representative Dotson. Thank you madam chair My question is to the tax division. it's on page one eighty nine. and it really goes to your professional line items fee professional fees line item and your capital out Sorry. I was off on that that's the contingency one that I would. Never mind professional professional fees is the main one I'm looking at. Is why are you asking for a hundred thousand dollars additional on there you expecting some litigation or what is that. A new line item there and we're is Representative Dotson making of sweetie I can't find in the middle there. There's reflections okay okay I got I got it yeah now I can see the hands reflecting. But what the glass okay server that. And. tax division director will address that. The professional fees we use for consultants when we have litigation. We have been fortunate not to have had too much litigation the last few years that created a need for that. let's see fourteen fifteen sixteen and seventeen we would have used a consultant for litigation from a pipeline federal express pipeline. One year we use the Probably about two thousand five or so we use the entire contingency fund. So it varies from year to year. We try our best not to have litigation but if we do we need the money to get experts. I guess it goes to my question it looks like the it's a brand new thing that wasn't in there before On the professional fees. Line item No or is it just that you didn't ever spend money in that last year I think that's the correct thing we didn't vendors have contingency line item before I'm just not showing in the ten year history that. Thank you under conditions is the appeal of tax assessments because we do tax assessments of common carriers in utilities like real roads even stuff that we don't regulate we do tax assessment and we certify that to the county. and so that's the contingency that's represented there at okay I just wasn't shown in the ten year history thank you all right to a Representative would you recognize for question thank you madam chairman I've got a couple of questions the first one. Page one ninety one and this may have been answered I'm either Mr shows a million dollars in contingency and then what. What is your revenue where is that coming from. The special revenues is a property tax assessment on the utilities that funds the entire agency well except for the federal funds with respect to the pipeline safety division. So it's not different than the rest of the PS the revenue is part of the same for the same with it comes from the at the laurel tax yes we only utilities yes okay all right. My next question mobile. We we show at the end of August that you had a hundred and fourteen positions which show that ninety eight of a more urgent to. And sixteen of them work but I can't and we're budgeted. And your and in this finance sheet of. The FAA are from from the budget. We show under actual of eighty nine fifteen. A hundred four nine six extra help you're at a hundred and ten new budgeted we show eighty five eighty five verses eighty nine fifteen additional or fifteen vacant and then six hundred and six so which number is correct come into you all have over there and others that sixteen how many how many of whom or the bill thank in over two years. A hundred and fourteen is the appropriation and that comes from three different areas the utilities division of the eighty nine that you see understand all that ma'am I don't mean to interrupt you but we're running short on time my question is the end of August you reported. That you'll have a hundred and fourteen positions. Authorized in ninety eight budgeted with this request that we have today so who was submitted in conjunction with your agency consideration and DFA there's a there's a difference of ten or twelve positions and then and then you show that you had sixteen vacant budgeted positions. Why the difference in numbers. I'm not sure where I see the ninety eight budgeted it's test can address that but I can say that it's our goal to remain fully staffed we have an extremely demanding schedule a. To be. At the common David we've had a lot of turnover in the last Two and a half years we've lost someone every five months and there's a very steep learning curve to and to be knowledgeable in this area and a lot of that turnover is to the people that we regulate wanted it during that period in time we've lost six people to utilities that we regulate and so that is a concern but we're constantly trying to be fully staffed and desperately need to be fully staffed and stay that way hi Mister bleed if you wanted to add something else to that sure of. Without speaking to the agency's individual situation the difference is that you see on the positions and you're gonna see this for a lot of agencies is that when we is part of the budget process will periodically take what we call a snapshot of where the agency is at that particular time and then will revisit the issue later because of course people can be very hard to predict they can be hard to budget around because they do things like quit or get promoted or find a different job the other thing that I think we're seeing this year in particular is that when a covered nineteen hit in March the state enacted a very hard hiring freeze so positions there was a lot of attrition during that time and so the lot of the agencies were operating with a lot fewer people than they typically were and we're not being allowed to re fill those positions so you are going to see some differences along those lines what I would do well stay in that Mr why would there be a difference between authorized. Positions in those that they're showing is authorized. We would just have to get with the agency and look at the time at which we took that snapshot and one of the more what you all are looking at as far as bills you're correct of those numbers should be should be the same should be the same okay and then the next question I had was of the sixteen how old is the oldest or how many have not been filled in the past two years. I can't say directly without doing some research we certainly can provide that but I can tell you that it is our goal to feel every position since the freeze was lifted as a result of the public health emergency we have been actively seeking to fill every position some of that comes from internal promotions and so then you're in the backfield but even at this moment on our website we probably have three and almost about five that are posted in or are actively trying to feel those you provide our staff with the with those it that have been filled have not been never mind feel for over two years yes Sir absolutely okay do you pay the four hundred twenty dollars a month per employee and their retirement and our insurance agents are due to see if I was confirm that with a head nod yes Sir thank you thank you madam chairman all right. A Representative Ladyman. His or her own. Well you're on the peer. The Green push okay. Thank you sorry about that this is for stand I just just kind of a general question here but. On the I'm looking at page one eighty five we're talking about personal services matching hello three. Is that you can is not your head on this if you want but is that just the overhead taxes and so forth the what that is for the personnel. Is that pretty much consistent this one's thirty percent is that can you answer that is that fairly consistent through these budgets I see it on every budget. Or does it change yes or no it can. Share yes of Representative if I may yet that that is exactly what it is and it depends on the salaries how much that match is going to be when typically when we are figuring up a match for on known positions we do twenty eight percent just as a as a guide. It could absolutely it's different from agency to agency depending on their individual sours thank you. He finished represent the placement all right thank you. Are a Representative gray. Who is in who is in C. thirty five. Okay. Right of. Oh okay of. Representative Lundstrum you're recognized you have to push a button. Your yellow button. Okay. I just wanna make sure I understood you you the positions have been open for two years did you say. I can't say for certain what period of time but I would not expect that at all and certainly not for all those positions because many of them have been vacated in the last few months even. But some of them go back as much as I did I'm not sure about that I don't believe they do but I I don't want to speak with certainty to you without taking a look at that closer look at that but I I think if that is the case it would be very few position okay because I think earlier in the conversation it was mentioned that we went back as far as two years and just sounds like we're. Never let never let a good crisis good awakes we're using this emergency to back fill as many positions as possible is not just this agency it's all agencies I'm sorry we five when I referenced over the last two and a half years I was talking about the X. the the turnover that it's been I've been with the agency two and a half years and during that period of time we've been losing someone every you know five months to a utility that we regulate so it's been a lot of turnover in my estimation is the new director during that period and that was what my comment about that period of time was that there's been an. You think causes that turnover Salary offers that are one third to one half or double what they make it for state government. Come I think it's pretty I would echo that they also have a lot of interaction with the utilities and so I have a Representative from one utility talking about somebody they met in the gross deviation. Yeah this person really sharpen okay Ding Ding Ding goes off and it wasn't even that utility that got them was a different one. And of course the unit. We have somebody who is making a hundred thousand at that last for two hundred thousand we had to move to get that right thank you do the math I get that I just don't know when when from seventy two one hundred and twenty with someone at talk last week another problem that we have will it's a good thing that we have S. P. P. in my so here are like the only place it has to or Teo headquarters but that's that's a constant drain of folks. Those are good paying jobs we like that they have those opportunities but it puts stress on the agency okay thank you and if I might add just one other thing not an law like a lot of other agencies but just companies a lot of people are at retirement age and we we have had some retirements included in in that attrition also that said that that would explain some of that yes all right thank you thank you Representative Wooten you're recognized for a question one just want to clarify a manager I'm talking about positions that have been fill for two years or longer nobody. No one has said in that position you're not paying the salaries. But yet you have the money budgeted talking about. Those position for longer than two years thank you madam chairman hi Sir will provide that. Okay thank you I would going to excuse you and your team and we're going to work. Do some other things so you can you. Alright ladies and gentleman. There there are no other questions. And term. I have a motion for executive ranks do I have a second all right all those in favor say aye. All those opposed motion passes ladies and gentleman we are dismissed until one thirty this afternoon thank you.