Education Committee Senate & House (All Day)

Yeah can continue own we're still waiting for some information to hand out. About the. Morning everyone I believe a ready to kind of get started working on getting the screen up to have this matrix on it. And give everybody a chance to see it for. A little bigger view you may have a copy in your possession by now. Of a draft matrix that we Are going to present to you to look at. Wall. Not yet. Good morning now we're ready to go. Glad everyone's here. And manager. Yes for ready to roll this. The today is our item C. owner might on our a bill to try to finalize discussion on the matrix and what we presented is address matrix in front of you that Jane and I have worked on after consulting with the different people in the industry of education. And A bill lar a lot of different things have kind of went into to some of the numbers we put in here I'm going to start out. And with the very top of this matrix which has not changed after evidence of what we've heard and what we talk to our experts about. The top matrix changing categorical I mean I'm sorry changing schools class sizes and people ratios takes a little more than just put in this matrix. X. some time to get that work so that's I'm I've heard from represent Lowery park represented Evans about thinking about changing ratios we've are pros and cons for that we chose not to try to do that I think that's something that we need to look at session time to give us planning time I'll get you just say planning time and Things that we can get the rules and rex and accreditation figured out because this does Messel accreditation when you start changing these numbers so I don't think we want to just do that and blow into the Robeson Lowery recognized. Thank you Mr chair at. I think after a punch the and you gave me the cons because I had not heard any of the cons Our experts that we spent so much money on have confirmed what we've known as far as the pros that if we can lower those class sizes Casey three. That it will is significantly help especially in a dark way those that are part of this the poverty gap trying to close the poverty gap so are you saying that the cons that you've heard or that changing that in any way would and I understand we have to changes by statute we can't change in the matrix we've actually got to go in and change the maximum class size so that we can mandate that school districts are doing it but what are the cons well I've heard both good and bad I've heard it I haven't heard by and I just heard that it didn't help the people that have smaller class sizes didn't see a significant result in it you might in certain areas and I go sit in every area that was one of the I will say it's a con it just wasn't a plus or minus their the the the cost of doing it right now was the messing with it but talking to school superintendents last week at a rule school conference late beau all ship there is that they would kill us if we did that right off the bat because it would take time to find teachers and not really kill us but they would they would it would be hard on them to find teachers to fill those of the positions they would be real hard on some of the rule schools because you're making it to have a half class there's just a lot of complications a sub we really need to think out and try to figure out the right formula for before we just jump into it and and right now we don't have time to really dig deep into that because we're late in the process because of code is in the one thing that's kinda and dissonant trying to do all the other things so I would I would suggest for you that want to do that to work on that this call following session let's get something up the department of it and let's figure out how to make that work and make it as smooth transition and a claim transition for all schools because we don't want shingles okay of. And I know that will pry talk about this later but seems like I remember there was legislation that if we do not List that if we do not listen statute the categories forty yes LA money. Of by a certain date that it's just kind of wide open it is what's that date the. Touch five for. The NATO is it twenty two. Twenty two sep twenty two yes okay so we probably should be addressing that is willing to work on that this next year yes the upcoming session and see if we can narrow it down yeah we can't wait till the end of yes the topic of yes Sir something we need to do to okay thank you thank you. Sir really. Mister chair I suspect we were in a position we could end up having a lot of conversations like the one we just had So what would it be appropriate our I would think it would be appropriate for us to keep kind of a running list of things that we come across that maybe we are not changing as for as funding but there is evidence based on our stated today that we ought to have it as a serious consideration for the upcoming session just keep a list of those things and maybe are you speaking of a whole talk about today yes I think we do have some one record was be recorded and also we also went on and I was going to suggest that make that at either as may be an appendix to our report so that it remains tethered to the document that you know kind of birth at the idea that we ought to be studying it as well I think we could put that with the report okay alright thank you. All right. Moving home so top part of the matrix stays the same so that is not changed next thing will go down to school level salaries and I'm just gonna take this from top to bottom will go all the way through today school level salaries of teacher benefits for discount this current years sixty seven thousand one twenty seven next year sixty eight four seventy. And twenty two which is what we're proposing. I will go to seventy point. One one or seventy thousand eleven dollars and twenty three seventy one thousand five eighty five we are bringing our teachers up slowly course as we know this goes into a pot of money that the school has and they could funds teacher salaries with it or. For whatever so we we want to continue to stress that you charge your. Your super dentistry principles and your Whatever that takes care of the finances. Up that they bring those teachers up according to what they need to be that is a two point two five percent raise. It's not a two point five it's a two point two five and if you go down would almost continues the would do this one and if there was any questions will go back principal salaries have been flat for for quite some time and we in twenty two it was it was ninety nine is ninety nine. Thousand twelve dollars and insert one twenty two that would pop up to one a one four seventy eight and then and twenty three one oh four twenty four point two always low something or that is a two and a half percent raise. So That because I have not moved a long time we felt that was something new to look at school level secretary forty thousand eight fifty five they've been pretty flat for quite awhile we gave them a two and a half was made in the forty one eight seventy six and in forty two nine twenty three that was a two and a half overall the two point three percent raise for school level personnel. Richey Lowry recognized. Thank you Mr chair a senior member. Conversation a ballot you get one of the reasons why we were not giving increases on the principle salaries was because we were creating. the disincentive. The more the gap did not close between teacher salaries in principle salaries we were disincentive Ising our best teachers to stay in the classroom and that was the reasoning I don't know if that's what was adopted in not having those increases at the principal level but you know we heard anecdotally loss to worries of teachers who would have preferred to stay in the classroom with the they knew the only way that they were going to be able to to see increases in their pay word to go and become principles so are we not falling right back especially with the two point five percent. Race for for principles are we not falling back in that trap again of pulling our best talent out of the classroom and I'm gonna give you some scenarios I don't think so there's always on the principles of the school so not everybody can be a principles in article everybody out you might pool the best but that really and truthfully I think everybody's got to you the principal should be the best they're they're the motivator there the person to get there by going and does save that's not the only reason but but I mean they still the still goes in the pot so they don't have to give the principle that much money it's just that some schools paid what that what that list is for benefits and everything for principal so that that's number two number three is I've heard so much for a rule schools that. Of have. Just a little over five hundred you know maybe seven hundred but they don't have that next level are there under five hundred you know where your you know those things at that plus a modest but they have to principals thoroughly funded for one principal so this will help them all their funding a little bit more for that second principle that they need without. Being big enough to get the second one so those are those are some of the scenarios that I looked at and and Jane we we callous talk bills out but we thought that principals need to move up a little bit but I agree we do pull the best for principal but I still think they need to be the best. Rebuttal. Well they need to be the best but you know I think we're better served if we can. Keep that that best educator. Hands on with the students because we're we're just not we're not closing poverty gap we're not increasing our numbers on reading comprehension I mean all these things and I can appreciate what you're saying about having your motivators eight in the In the offices principal but you know we need that motivation in the classroom as well I just think I think we were on the right track of not necessarily holding flat principles but over time recognizing that if we maybe don't give the same percentage increase the principals as we do teachers we close that gap as far as I know there are more motivations other than salary but we. We don't want to be working at working against that disincentives so they're not and I don't disagree with you on that I just think we've held principles flat for so long that number that it was time for a little bit of an increase on them so absent so let's read we have a whole bunch of them want to comment on this so I want to you get. But you're sent two point five is is five is the multiplier on that yes the and that's a bit higher than I mean I know for many years we were just in a straight two point no so now to. Do some catch up we're going to two point five on that level we're actually taking it from this the CPU that Richard Wilson the amount that he brought us that day I'm trying to find the. Yeah the Estimates for the two economic data. Subscriptions have slightly increases CPU ranges approximately two point five percent in the in the increase upper range is expected during the second year of the biennium so we think that two point five is where that would be cost of living increases so how will we work to windows to you know what we thought it was too but I you know we've always try to get pretty close to this so they could be anywhere from two to two point five. Okay thank you thank you. So really. Thank you Mr chair I was going to ask about Where we got the numbers and you just said from Richard C. P. U. survey taken those numbers and then use in those numbers and how do we determine. Who determined the recommendation. How was a better question for the number that I go flat C. P. U. or use some other number how are we doing that because this as a as a committee we don't know that. We're not trying to do a flat two point five board we were we were trying to target areas that we thought needed to be in the teacher salaries and those were close close as possible we could do that anywhere between a two point one and a two point five was a recommendation from the CPU so as you see that's like a two point three right from home so I think real close on it I don't think anybody's going to have a problem in the teaching field or in the school field with numbers like to be real good with. Well how do we know though if we are responsible for an adequate salary. How do we know this is adequate just because we're basing it on the CPU I we know that was court where you're at if you want to say an adequate salary that you know that and that's part of my point because what we're going to do is to just to make a very good salary now going to get whatever we put on this paper those who get. What do you may not necessarily not necessarily everybody gets that fair shall not everyone gets this is what we we sit there discuss that as you know their teachers in the thirties thousand range and they're all way up to whatever above this so it's not necessarily that everybody's going to get that money the well what I'm I'm sorry Mr what I'm saying is if we say teachers going to get two point two five that that percentage is going to go to each school district no matter if they are barely paying their teachers if they're paying a very well or whatever yeah and that's that's my point I know when it gets there the part about this being a funding formula. We can't say they're going to get it but what I'm saying is if we send two point two five to school a and send it to school be and we're calling that adequate and all question is how do we know is adequate just because it's a C. P. U. and and we. And if I want to change this number if we want to change this number is a is a motion in order no not not now but it will be plan well when you see the final all the teachers hours were not even the with teacher salaries yet okay we have another number in the bottom. So you need to wake up I will wait and but I'm still one back to the question that I want this that I want this committee to contemplate and I this is not new to my saying this but how do we know. Based on everything we've learned all the money we spent to get information from folks and then when it comes down to it we just we just default to the C. P. U.. A I did not to fall to the CPU on this I just I just use that as a backup when I look at it and and John and I both talked about this along with consulting with others groups about this and the. Two point five two point two those things are are real close to what we need to do. You know every year we racist matrix of and I'm sure it's a this year the you look at the total increases ninety nine million dollars this is probably. Thirty million more than it was Last session. So I mean I think we're trying to bring them up to where they need to be now is it adequate for every one that's up to that school district to be adequate for those teachers but if you'll hang on we have another bill okay okay I'll in with this but just with a slight disagreement is not up to those school districts to be adequate for those teachers I think we need to consider it because they are not in the constitution we are so that's why I'm pushing so much of what we are doing I agree that I think we're putting it there for to be adequate but we do not have control once we let that money go. Okay. Six seven three I'm not sure who that is. Okay Jim you move around too much. Thank you Mr chair Just with regards to the two point five or two point two five I mean I I realize and understand we're putting this into a bucket of money that local school boards determine individual salaries for teachers and and the principles and and such and the average if I'm reading this line correctly this is school overs school level salaries per student the total averages two point three is that correct so that's going to be the average amongst all of these lines if you put it all up there I think the principals were two point five the teachers two point two five so it kind of and that just kinda averages out road going to yes gotcha so I mean regardless of whether or not we did two point three eight. Amongst all them or individually broken out per line. They still have the discretion on how they're going to manage their money within this bucket and I mean I. Whatever we decide if the two point three is the the average amongst all of them. Think we should probably keep it the same amongst all the different categories I just. Obviously if we left the principal salaries flat for the last several years You know I don't have a problem with increasing that line item for those for that that particular category but It's in the a. It's not a great message for teachers to say you're going to have to hold on to the end for you judge we have some more money for the teachers okay well or it's in the bottom is a categorical and will get their. Well what I'm saying is to increase the principal salaries at a higher percentage rate than the teachers as well I just don't think it's a great message let me just go ahead let you look down and you'll see there is in the in the additional funding. If you look over to the far right at twenty two twenty three there's an additional fifteen million dollars for teacher salaries in those two lines I don't want a one discuss that right now and I mean I don't want to bring that up and show you all that we do have a formula for that and that is to help the schools that are going to be on a clear for the sixty million goes away of they're gonna drop off the cliff and are going to have have some funding issues so that sit at fifteen million a year is a formula that back probably last year sometime talk to doctor Abernathy and I salute you know we've been discussing that that was going to be an issue and charged him to five super tennis put a group together and come up with a plan that those schools that need that money not everybody needs that money there's not every school this but there's a formula starts out with the top school goes all the way the bottom and they have a formula figured out that it's it's house each school gets according to a lot of different things wealth index is things like that so we will discuss that when we get to the distal funding but there is fifteen million dollar it goes directly to the teachers no. No hold out said doesn't go in the bucket. So I guess this question is if if you did the teacher salary at two point three and the principal salary at two point three what was that total dollar amount in those particular items that's the lead to set that put that the calculator and do that and it's it's a little bit more. Problem today from a number that we could do it but it just takes get them at the that would that would be helpful to know what what these line items are not a lot of difference because you look a principal salaries are only two billion dollars so if you change it to two three I doubt if you take it down below two million about six three hundred off of it I'm just guessing thank you okay. Senator Chesterfield. Thank you Mr chair. We continue to treat everybody the same in the formula if you're in this district where the top salary sixty thousand. You're going to get the same money as if you were in a district for the top salaries thirty eight thousand is that what we're doing. And in the matrix yes in the matrix and I'm concerned because we have continually heard from AT A about the different FOR tiles and how for schools are doing and. All of this so we have not given any. Top to funding those who have the least giving them more are we relying on the seventy percent the ninety five percent and all of that to make it up relying a lot of that will possibly hit in the bottom right hand salary for those of the to be made up the you will get a what now the message just walked in. The enhanced salary I just I just spoke about the enhanced salary fifteen million in the bottom that hasn't with that that is what I would not know that that was meant to make up the difference not meet different make up the difference when they for when this money goes away that we voted for last time but I did not realize too that that was to make a difference between say Marvell and Bentonville and that's what you're telling me it's more no it's not for that it is to make up the difference in the sixty million that brought those teachers up to the level they are and to the steps that are going to to help them with that when that goes away that's that's six goes away so we'll keep them on the rise we're trying to help those so but I can't tell you that what a teacher makes a bit bill they're gonna make an amount of Arkansas well I don't expect that but I thought perhaps if we started funding them as if they were different. I wanted to make sure that we are able to attract some of the brightest and the best to where they need to take this door what. And do it that way. You can't. Every school differently we're not going to do that so like today when you can at a foundation matrix. Represent our. I don't really know where to start. But I guess I'm gonna start up to start off since I've already kind of dug myself a hole yesterday about talking about getting conned I'll just go one step further. I'm very frustrated by something that is as important as this that you know. We've been whether I voted for them or not we're we've been listening to consultants for months that have been telling us. The problems that we know exist. And. Part of it is that we fund these a large part of it is that we send money this pot of money that you're talking about to the schools and because they don't. Spend it. Based on the part that we send them then the way that we're going to fix this is by having a supplemental fifteen million or or whatever and it sounds like we're doing the same thing with that with teacher salaries that we're doing with transportation we know the transportation in the matrix is messed up that there are winners and there are losers but we don't have the political resolve to do the right thing which is to pull transportation out of the matrix and also to pull teacher salaries out the matrix in the reason we don't have the political resolve is that. We think it's good enough for us to constitutionally do our duty when we know that the constitutional duty we're doing is not being carried out. Where the boots hit the ground. And I I think that that is a dereliction of our duty if we know. That the way that we're going through this process is not the money is not getting where it's supposed to be I can teacher salaries. Then we need to do something other than doing patchwork in doing bandaids. And recognize that if we're putting enough money in there so that teachers can have a good wage consistently and equitably throughout the state and the only way we can do that is to mandate that the money that's put in the formula for teachers salaries is spent on teacher salaries. In winter we going to have some backbone and put it in categorical. And I know the arguments against it well you're taken away local control. I've I've heard it we I've sat on those panels with you were superintendents of said we your taken away all of our control. At the point that there circumventing our constitutional mandate you betcha we're taking away their control and we need to do more. So what I've said my piece side I just I don't know why we keep. Recognizing that we have this problem. In the only way that we can come up to fix it is to put in extra money. As it relates to transportation for those districts that have extra needs. While some districts are still making a million dollars per year over and above their expenses related to transportation and then at the same time with teacher salaries we still have these inequities from district to district just because of the vagaries of allowing the superintendent to make the decision whether they're going to use all the teacher salary money on teacher salaries. So so I would say next session you need to make a motion and run a bill to changes from Mr chairman for my file funding to a spending Mr chairman we've been talking about this for six years. And the answer always this will follow the bill in the next session or will deal with the with that in the next discussion of the matrix and of adequacy. We'll deal with that later there's too much push back right now there's always going to be pushed back. Well I'm not saying yours push back I'm just saying we wait to the last day to come up with that we're going to change this and you if you changes from a funding formula to a spending formula you've changed a lot of things it's not just that easy the Mr chairman. You didn't wait to the last day you you asked Richard Abernathy two can put together a group to come up with some kind of a solution that charge was not given to any of us no I did asking not to limit that they we've all heard this issue about the problem with the that was going to be a problem the cliff was going to fall and I told him to come up with a solution and they did. And this is the first time we've heard of that solution I we have not been ready to put that so that we could have countered back in said that's just a bandaid let's just do it let's do it the right way. So that's why that's why. My frustrations we do get to this eleventh hour we have this constitutional deadline and we're not involved in those working group discussions so that we could have come back some of us could come back with a counter proposal I believe out that out to everyone of you at the very start the house in a can't speak for the Senate in that if you have anything you want to talk about anything you want to do on this matrix to bring it to me let's talk about it I have not heard but from the very few. So this is what we've come up with from the very few K. I I guess I just made the assumption we talked about. Solutions possible solutions in a previous adequacy conversation that those same discussions would carry over that we would not have to. Go back go well I want to reiterate and you know it's going to take a lot of work to pull teacher salaries out of there and make a I think a formula to make that work is basically it goes to an evidence based on what you're paying your teachers you're still can't just give a certain amount to each school. To do that even though a list I turn in a worksheet this is this is what we pay this is what we need we still have to have the same thing and and I don't have a problem doing that it's just it's got to be figured out and that and you can't just figure that out overnight so. Thank you thank you for allowing my input you bet. Absent dolorosa. Thank you Mr chair in a. First I just wanna say thank you for working on this in putting this together because you're getting a lot of flak for it nobody would do that any of us could have had any meeting with anybody we wanted to to get any input we wanted from anybody last I checked wrist Richard Abernathy would meet with any of us who asks about it so you you put it together you've got a proposal and I appreciate that Most of the questions that I had actually excuse me have already been answered I was worried about the cliff as well that's what I was going to ask about teacher salaries What I don't understand is how fifteen million. Fixes that I mean if it was sixty that we put in house fifteen million in twenty twenty to resolve that issue is it just because it's only going to the smaller schools that had had the issue. Hello this yes would we have a brief presentation on that when we get down to that it'll show you all of the way that that funds and hal but if you look at the sixty million it was four years that's fifteen million a year so this fifteen million that we're putting in here will carry all of it but you'll have to see if the levels and how it how placement under school gets the same amount it's it's figured on the US chart ratio and how it does lock out don't have that from me right now so but I that'll be played out the doctor Nando's has the as in on the deal will bring it up put it on the board. A great in. Again to echo what Representative Lowery said. We find ourselves yet again putting something below the line in the matrix I'm not saying that we should switch to a spending formula because I do believe in local control so I'm not making I'm not advocating for that but I think it does still one and tell us that the way that we're putting our matrix together is not really capturing everything because we're doing it on a per student basis with a five hundred kid the medical five hundred kids school but what we find it always seems to be a lot of times it has to do with the scale of the school there's an economy of scale that is not being mathematically factored in here I don't know what that factor should be which is why I'm not really going to be helping with a solution here I'm just gonna be complaining But we need to find out what that is because that's I think that's why we keep running into the same problems that we have to keep putting things below the line is because when you go from our small school the large school there's a Connery's a scale and that factor doesn't factor up it's it's not linear at the you know so the larger schools in the padding advantages that the smaller schools don't and we're just going to keep finding ourselves taking more out of the matrix until I think there's going to be a legal case made. That we're not actually using the matrix because we're gonna have more money being funded outside of it they did it and therefore it's not really our funding formula that's my concern so I just want to I think I think the only way you could fix that is you know we fund it off of the per pupil ratio and that's how they get funded and it would have to be that the school had a different ratio for people to ever fund it were little schools got enough money and stair stepped up within that is really not that's not fair. To everyone so it's still anywhere you go A no there's no perfect solution to the rate you could end up with cliffs doing that too in in the eight I get it I'm just saying the way we're doing it obviously we keep having to take things out that that's my only point and at some point we're going to have taken so much out and put it below the line that it argument is going to be paid for the Supreme Court that we are not funding by matrix anymore because so much of our money is going to be outside of it by necessity. But that leaves open so that that's my concern it it doesn't change anything today I'm just making that that certainly thank you. Absent but. Thank you Mr other and. Look maybe my question is been answer this but I allowed so you're saying that this additional funding. That we are taking into consideration the size of the school and by that I mean that for the salaries that the smaller school dishes would get a larger proportion. Of this for their teachers than larger school district is that correct takes in a a I felt paperwork appear it takes in the average ATM the medium. Median house hold income there bill ratio and then it puts it into a formula and a multiplier and it comes up with a number not in figure that out so somebody else that you know that works that is so that'll be an interesting discussion but the point that I want to make is is I think that There's two things here that are kinda by about the been mentioned number once transportation we know that some schools are. Really liking the way we fund it transportation because that they use it for all kinds of other things that we know that rule school districts are suffering for the same reason so I think we should look at the possibility of putting a factor in there that relates to the number of miles it of transportation that you're transporting the child to school just like we do for for other things and actress another thing that we should do I I feel is the to look at the school size directly because if you look at teacher salaries smaller school districts as teachers last and that's if you talk to the if you talk to them any any look they they have the this is to to to teacher ratios are way off are are usually. Further often. We we I say we should challenge that but at the same time we have to look and say okay yeah these these guys are having a hard time doing that that's why we we gave the teachers a thousand dollar raise of. From the smallest go to consider just put a hundred thousand dollar hole in my budget and that's the the clipped and everything that we're talking here so we're never going to address that issue but on more money at a larger school districts A bill FOR doesn't do that. Well Miller don't do that it does it doesn't failed well not the formula for the extra money it doesn't well okay not for the actual my but the other money it does and you yourself said that this is a small amount compared to the other increase so in effect the the other increase is it's just going to is going to worsen the back between the larger school districts in the smaller school district so I think that we need to address that issue directly and I I think it be easy to do relativity's it is a matter of fact. Our consultants handed that that yesterday right they said that they they saw that discrepancy between the the size of the school districts so my concern is is that we're not fixing this we're we're would you we're doing the same thing again the fat cats are gonna get fatter and amend will help you more crimes to the smaller school districts but that's what they are their crimes they're they're not fixing their problems of and I think I think. Now what we can look at it in two different ways we can we can look at and help them out with their Sauer which I think we should do but but we can also look at how we can help on legislative that'll come during the session but but could to help the smaller school districts and I've heard people say well they don't want smaller school to talk about the state and I don't think that's the case and we're trying to trying to force is out of the out of the small school teacher districts are great I came out of one is large district down on county but it was one of the smallest at that time and I think small district do well and and it's hard to figure out how to fund this all equally and ethical adequately. Without somebody having winners losers what yeah and so I but I mean I think this next session and I think there are some issues we've got to work I'll and not put a law total total we get down to this two years now whoever's in this committee and whoever's chair networking at all on it whatever there's there's a big charge that we need to figure this out and and Mike you know where the we take teacher salaries out take transportation would be out and to your to both of you all talking to represent Lowery you. We have a formula of that was built four years ago for transportation but since Richard Wilson has been gallon there's nobody to bill that formula he is just recently came back home to where we could consult with AM but not in time to try to build that formula of senator Cheatham as a passion to fix transportation and he's worked on that for the last four of four years and that's for the supplemental transportation came from from senator Cheatham and. We have a court would bump that up again to give a more supplemental transportation for those rules schools that are route miles the perfect scenario to figuring out transportation route miles of. kids in the seat doesn't work we found out that those ratios don't work perfectly they do work but not perfectly so we listen but there's work to be done on that too so you know we got to charge this next year to figure out some things. It just says all that we're we're taking another step you know these rules small school districts are typically so the poverty school districts that we have out there and we got these guys out there they are borrowing from Peter to pay Paul with this funding matrix that we have all the time and and and no and everyone knows everyone else that and and and and here we go funding again don money into this matrix again that's that's just going to maybe like a set program a few crumbs but allow these the largest conditions be even fatter thank you undisputed little bit not all those small schools are more poor some of we're doing very well there manage their money well and they're very good at it but there are a lot that are not I agree with that I agree with the overwhelming majority of our paint ball park yes part of a Peter to pay Paul yeah some of us. Absent the bikes. Thank you Mr chair when we hired a consultant I was one of the things that I had hoped that we would do and get out of the study was that we would find a way to replace the matrix that and the funding formulas that we have so that we could deal with the issues that we've heard this morning I agree with represent della Rosa represent back in and Representative Lowery and it was also my input hope that and I would I think we were told that whatever recommendations they came to us would be something that we would institute in the future after. Dealing with this recommendation I think we all know that the matrix is flawed that it does benefit the larger districts and What represented that is accurate in saying is that when you know when we put those percentage increases over there they benefit more than the smaller districts and so that one now we've tried to deal with those in equity inequities by putting them in categorical. And that made it not be the best way to do it but I think we're trying to make a good faith effort to help. Deal with those inequities so I don't think we're going to come up with a a new funding formula in the end the time between now and in the session and like I said I thought the purpose of the study of hiring a consultant in large that was my hope was that we were going to come up with that funding formula that would deal with the things that have been brought out this morning and I don't have a question. That's all right. Sir really. Thank you Mr chair I I guess perhaps I misunderstood when when you ask about the items that we wanted to have discussed in this committee because I I I thought it they were going to beat because I had about three of four items maybe more than that I thought needed to be discussed during these deliberations and I a was under the impression they're gonna be discussed in the committee and up evidently I got that wrong and that's my main did not we try that one day and the subject going back to schools and coverage and see restaurant is I got we couldn't move on so we moved off that we had a whole day plan for that and possibly the or the second day and all we could do was talk about code in our schools and our teachers were gonna be safe and that our kids didn't know what we need to go back to school that's all we did that day and so that pastor we had to move on so we just okay that just okay that that doesn't happen for whatever reason I want to get a clarification about the the fifteen million dollars it isn't the it is this is to Make hold the the if you really good held on I have a presentation that will explain all those questions for you I'm not sure about this and that this is pretty generic is it is it is it meant to I'd just make sure nobody falls off the cliff or is it meant to be four given the races that are that were mandated by the legislation is not about raises are mandated is about falling off the cliff of okay so well the I guess that would be the raises are mandated by the yeah so is surveys of the mandate Senate so that the districts don't does go into a home yeah that's what it's about so it has a different amount for every district that according to a lot of things but it has nothing to do with the raises that we're talking about in the funding formula no ma'am that's a whole different thing whole different thing that is our normal every session two sessions are biennium to do the matrix and put those numbers and left to right. And so in essence is really nice it's really not. With a I don't I well when we get there you could explain to me then why we should even talk about the formula in terms of the fifteen million dollars because the two things are not related so when I talk about and I ask about how what we're putting in the formula well we're only formula right now and I just brought that other up because of asking about teacher salary so that was what you said there will be more but I'm clear that I'm trying to find out should that I'm not seeing the logic of even discussing the fifteen million dollars when we're talking about the formula because all that to doing is just make it people hold for something we've already promised that's right okay I likes it I wanted you to tell the people that you know a bike you think of the teachers and I don't get what they need well the ones that are been mandated up they will get what they need so that's what the fifteen million four so. Okay I guess we'll talk about that more because I don't think they're getting what they need and I because they're going to get the two point two five or whatever that was that's what they're getting and the principles are getting something and get in a different amount and I don't know what how much we keep up with what's really happening education but I can tell you right now any A the principal is not considered to be the end all be all and that there is any reason for the principal to be getting more than teachers because as you probably know we're flattening more leadership now than we used to just have somebody at the top that's one of the reasons as one of the justifications for appeal sees a because teachers need to have more to say about what's going on and the other thing about it is I is kind of like when I talked yesterday about career and and college degrees. It just shouldn't be talked about in terms of one or the other they're both important. That should be talked about that one is more important than the other because that's just not the case people have evolved from that sent. Thank you Mr chair. Representantes of. Thank you Mr chair I know we have an apparently got over to the enhanced salary fifteen million dollar but we keep talking about it so if we could skip over that let's go down this other talk about that later I would appreciate it I really think you need to see the presentation before we start really trying to explain that. will just a quick question though the the fifteen million is going to be a a new baseline it is a new baseline that will be leaders on an annual basis yes specifically for salaries yes okay that's. However the presentation for the rest okay thank you. Rustler you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair up I to just going to pose a question. Just the so the we have so that I have proper historical precedent and and I was not around I know that some of our members were around when the lake view was settled Senator Elliot senator Chesterfield. Are we. Are we tied is the matrix. I mean I my understanding is the matrix is the mechanism that we get to of establishing adequacy but that is not our constitutional mandate. To maintain the matrix as it was originally conceived is that correct to can anyone. Give me that perspective. Well from what I heard last year let them say whatever they want the matrix is not and you could you could do away with this matrix you may have a lawsuit you might not of I don't think that really matter and figure out of funding formula for each school separately eight schools anyway you want to but you can change this up others there would be always a possible of a lawsuit there might be a lawsuit if we leave it just like it is so but I don't think it's it's in gold now that says we have been to most of the desegregation suits and their most of a gallon and another still always something going on but that's just my version of what the senator Ellender. Somebody else they have some sort. To really Mr chair I hate to could you could you just quickly rephrase that question missed allowance will. I know Representative della Rosa was made the comment that if we start moving more and more out of the matrix into categorical that we're violating the spirit of the matrix and then we are possibly inviting being out of compliance and I just wanted to get clarification of whether that is indeed true that the matrix is the Lynch pin on adequacy or is it just the mechanism that we use to get there. All I think at the time that we did it it was it was considered the Lynch pin of. That the that the saying that we really needed to consider those adequacy and also use it as a matter of equity I think you we get as I think it is if we keep getting things outside of the funding formula to reach equity which is something that we haven't done very well I don't I don't see that is problematic based on you know what we did when we first put this in place but if we come up with a hold if if we amend the matrix also and we can defender why we're doing it as a matter of equity I don't see that as a problem either because what the court said to us is that we had to we had to come up with the Meccan mechanism and they okayed this funding formula but I don't recall anybody saying it could never be a change to it we have the funding formula to do two things and that's that's determined adequacy and equity and one of the problems we have with this funding formula is that we keep putting things in the funding formula that are the same at the two point five everybody's going to get the two point five that might address adequacy but it does nothing for equity at all because they're basically the same thing. And so you could still have the funding formula and do something about the equity outside of that and achieve what we need to achieve best possible this is with more work for to do but I think our big I've I think our big exposure is is equity. We don't have a good way of necessary was saying how we achievement okay we'll in in Mr chair a. One of the main reason I want to ask that because I remember the very significantly are very vividly our discussion. Gosh I think it was two years ago I know it is it was of a mediate Lee prior to us talking about whether we were going to hire a consultant on adequacy that we heard a very compelling presentation that for those school districts that are below the five hundred but above the statutorily mandated three fifty there's this huge gap. And that we probably needed to address. Changing the matrix to where it fits at three fifty or at least some hybrid of that and I I don't know that we've ever had another discussion about that since then well we we we have not had a I'll I'll just tell you this from the time we change the number to three fifty a and it's been my I even said it will be changed it a tent from three fifty and now with a changed it to even less than that. A my position and I think what the court ordered demands of us we change the number we allow the school districts to exist at two hundred people whatever it is it is our responsibility to make sure they get not just an adequate but also and equitable education there's no way we are we are we doing that we change the number but we're not funding it according to the number I'm title at the latest the latest so legislation that we passed and that's my frustration with if we we get these folks in here and they give us recommendations at least there needs to be some evidence that we looked at it before we just put a number on the paper. Of at the end quintiles or whatever the case may be. Because we can't I can't defend a I don't have any evidence that I'm doing anything to make sure those schools that we we said you may exist at two fifty one of the case maybe we didn't say you may exist at two fifteen we don't plan to fund you adequately and equitably that's not what we said because you should be inherent that we're going to we're not doing it. Thank you for the clarification. Sure just a thank you Mr chair in thank you Representative Lowery for the question is one of the reasons that I ask my question earlier we're dealing with all of this we have seen what a P. A. say is yet we continue to fund everybody is F. is if everybody is in the same condition and one of the things that I brought to the table a year so ago was the fact that we can't determine what adequacy is if we have not seen what in adequacy he is and then we go around to the school districts we've been to school districts that we know. Do not provide the facilities that would provide for when equitable education we know that their teachers that are not being paid. In the same way that will allow them to state what we need them to stay in so in our study with a BA what we have found he is. In those school districts you have the least experienced teachers many of them teaching out of the area of certification and then we expect all of the schools to be able to do the same thing and achieve great things for our kids our our teachers do a great job in spite of but we need them to do a great job because of what we do. So thank you. Thank you Mr chair. This might be a silly question but we knew that we set a minimum salary for teachers. We went with non that since we set the minimum salary why did we not work that minimum salary into the matrix rather than have to put it outside because we're sitting here talking about we're going to set it outside. But if we knew that the schools going to continually have to meet this minimum salary why did we not make it simpler and actually make it part of the matrix and free for more than two point five percent or whatever it is so that they could continue to meet these minimum salaries I mean SMA works with numbers all the time that would have been the easiest way to do it in the most simple and to keep it in the matrix and not outside the matrix because we've already set the minimum by law that this is what you got to pay the minimum so law we don't set that we don't put salary schedules in the matrix the salary schedules are up to school board us local control so they are allowed to do that so what we don't have a choice on that that's not what my question was my question was very simply is we already know that we created the issue for the minimum teacher salary for these teachers for the schools so we know that we've got a funding mechanism not a spending mechanism so we know that they have to fund these minimum salaries so why did we not make that. Increase as part of the matrix that we knew that they were going to have to have this additional increase and that increase inside the matrix used in the divisional we we there is an increase in there but it's not a mandate and increased to where it goes if you mandate those lines in it not a matrix is not a it's not a formula but we mandated that when we say do you must have a minimum if you wait to the fifteen million you'll see the mandate that's right but I'm saying but why did we have to do it as a categorical why could we not put it inside because it was already mandated so it doesn't matter where the money came from they have to pay at. Well there there again you're making it a spending formula not I. Of of funding formula. Fifty you mandated put it in there is because I spent on that mandated that I'm saying that this is the amount of money that we're going to give you spend it how you need to spend but you know by law your mandate to meet these minimum teacher requirement I'm not telling you what to pay your teachers I'm just saying here's the money you need to pay them all by the way you know what you law is that you say you must pay your teachers this minimum salary they are supposed to do that. And if it and the only way they can get around that is asked for a waiver to not pay that and some ask for waivers some don't but I mean they are mandated to pay that minimum salary. That's what I'm saying is I don't understand why we set it up at the enhanced salary categorical when we could work it into the matrix and later continual funding there you can't mandate for that goes to in that may I'm not asking to mandated I'm saying only tell me how we put it in there that well you've got a line for teacher salary yes all right you know that they're going to have to pay this additional Malon these teachers why could you not added to that. And just like you said someone get waivers and some of them don't they're not mandated you have to ask the lawyer that because it's not that simple. For. Are we need to move on so I will go one more for you Senator really and we'll move yes okay well I because I I appreciate the question from room of a resident of Cavenaugh The only reason and I wish everything was in there and clean that way too but the only reason I see that it makes Better policy to put this amount outside is one of the problems with the major cause every time we put something the matrix it's not equitable. And the money can just go anywhere and those folks who are more well off could take that same money less to say take a school district as paying high salaries they could take that same money that if we put over the matrix and do whatever they choose to do with it and on the way we re some equity is if we say well you've got the funding formula that is equal to everybody rather than equitable is equal to the next level and then if we leave this out side and say you are quite in the last quintiles. When you make your eye and I'm guessing Mr chair based on the for me to talk about when you make your proposal for the amount of money that you need to not fall off that cliff what you're going to do then is to bring in some equity to the situation is that you are trying to distract yeah but that would be the reason I was I understand but that would be a reason why we need to be outside. thank you miss. All right now so that was a school level salaries. We'll move the next line which school level resources. Technology has two fifties been flat for years the reasoning for that if you look at what bill or present status spend half of that. They spent half of that technology but they get a lot of federal money that they can apply for for technology so that's why they do not use quite enough in the technology so we left that flat. Instructional materials is something they use that is something they're using more of a more Chromebooks and more things on zoom in on line so the to structural materials. It is something that needed increasing with recent last time so it moved from one eighty seven to one ninety two to one ninety seven which is about two and a half percent some of these numbers were up and now we just kind of level of all that that amount. extra duty funds spent sixty six point two for the last two years with both of them up two point six and we're that around at all. We we did numbers and and that's what's percentages come out too so sixty seven nine extra the funds you know plus or minus some people use a lot of that some people the news that much so they could still be okay my next two were the ones that up a relief I thank because gonna be used a lot more now was a supervisory aids I think with the way our teachers are having to deal with code within doing multi tasking they're going to have more aids needed so we bump that up and and also substitutes to something that would teachers can't be in school we have to have good substitutes and I know a lot of people are turning their hard it's hard time to get substitutes or in using a lot of money on it when they do so we brought those things up two and a half percent so those items a school of resources any questions on that senator Chesterfield Thank you Mr chair. I'm. I'm always look to the extra duty funds and wondered. What happened to them simply because teachers do early morning lunch and afternoon duty at no pay. So what are these funds used for. The funds I'm not sure I thought I would be for in during the day it would be for something if you have to pull of duty at a ballgame I would say I really don't know I have to look to the Oscar track Terrel somebody that knows exactly what they go to but it would be anything of extra from your regular duties I always thought when I was out there in the morning. Any lunch. In the afternoon that that was extra duty and I never got paid for it. So the figure out. What exactly do schools use these funds for supervisory eight I never saw supervisory eight okay I will I will let you the answer that she's got the answer June I well I can say statutorily they are not to you teachers are not spend more than an hour performing duties that are not instructional duties so that that's why they're offended to be able to pay either teachers who do take on and I think we've had this discussion but with as chair later sponsors or or the lunch time duty that and make sure and keep and straight here not got paid for the you know the drill team and that sort of thing so that's what this the is read and then the next other extra activity is is that extra amount of time the supervisory aids or the people who are supposed to be watching the entree supervising recess in the bus routes before and after. So we were actually supposed to be paid. There if money in the budget for that yes what is the average substitute salary in this state because I know most to make seventy three dollars a day probably around seventy five it was very close to that that hot springs. Probably Senate. S. at I do not have the report right with me that it is in the report I can send that to you I think it was higher than we expected it to be we got the information according to our surveys with the school districts so we're doing better than we used to do yes and the fifty Bucks a day at the if they're substitutes for the college degree I think D. make more than the seventy five dollar range I don't have a college degree they don't make quite as much thank you thank you Mr. All right of repeating makes. Thank you Mr chair question I had on the technology and we were listening to the report yesterday one of the concerns the teachers raised was there wasn't enough for technology. And thank you said that yesterday was it of that also part as far one when the team that is not what our reports of always says all right now you know that you know what they're saver two years down the line I don't know but I mean for your no line I don't know but I mean it's always been about the if it was two fifty read about one twenty five I talked to the department of in an Aston you know technology instructional materials how will those things going and it but the the crowd was more for instructional materials technology and like I said as a lot of federal funds that could be the used to the laws for that and so they can use of a lot easier honor if it may be a situation where technology is a good pot to rob the well that's. It will other things and then the technology that they need they're not getting. It was a part rob amendment if they're not use it to put it somewhere else so. All right you know I we moved that basically the to more teachers our principals hours trying to build it up a little bit okay doing doing now. And this may be a staff question do you track it if so we we've got to fifteen here for technology. Where it's going. What categories it's going to or the shortfall. That maybe need where they use it is to their rights that not correct okay let. A maybe. We were we can adjust the matrix to properly reflect works better knowing versus having to fifty there and it's only half being spent and or by getting it was bound to it all the nice but that it becomes you know kind of more of a spending make sure that that catch twenty two thank you. All right any other questions on school level. Seeing none was moved down the carry forward operations and maintenance last in twenty one it would be seven oh five right now six ninety seven so it will move to seven twenty three seven forty one and of the reason we looked at the operation minus that is all your sort of a classified employees fit into that category and so we know the as with the minimum wage rising it will pop out and so they're they're hurting on some of those numbers course energy prices or start to move back up so we know that that's going to be on what is going to be two years that's a guess but so we tried to just continue to move them up also. Central office first move they've had a long time. so the office of the flat for. Ten years probably. we decided to go ahead and bring them up to percent low the time and that's that move transportation we kept it flat. until we actually represent large so we actually get this figured out and senator Cheatham with left that flat so so much not getting fatter on the extra that they have and we did move over and if you'll see in additional funding you'll see that this this year five million pictures five million twenty two will be six million and twenty three will be seventy two seven point two million if we have a new formula by then we will have to revisit this and check and change those two numbers on the the and so if we come up with the transportation formula and statute does could possibly change. But as for now that was that will stay. If voted for. Any questions senator Chesterfield. Yes Mister chair and and I appreciate us looking at the operations and maintenance because those individuals having to do for more now in light of coal that then they have to do before with the extra cleaning and and put in jeopardy. I'd like for us to look at as as we look at transportation there continues to be a dearth of bus drivers. And I'm wondering. Is the salary the reason or is it just people aren't passing the CDL or. Could we look at that because I continue to hear people say we just can't get bus drivers I know in my districts they're having a difficult time recruiting and keeping bus drivers I could tell you what a bus driver leave and paid because that we have nothing to say about that and a lot of lot of the schools of sub that out or or form that out so it's underneath a corporation it runs of bus routes but yes it's always hard because it's for two hours in the morning to our afternoon a lot of people to law school today I know there are people in my area I have breakfast at a little coffee shop when I'm at home and will the gentleman says up front but I talked to him and I said are you not driving this morning he's not drive the afternoon so he just puts route with somebody else elected that way you could do what you want to the daytime work at name makes the site so it's hard it's hard to find bus drivers that really want spend four hours or day split half. But I I would advocate as forming it out to someone because that we put the retirement system in jeopardy so just checking is the hours you would say would be no reason for years the. bus drivers were on the health plan and the all that and and then we took him off and it would put it back on so that that's probably one of the reasons the shapes of some of the states that because I remember several individuals join because of the health care and then when we took it away but also house of drivers going to be in your fifties sixties at a seventy so thank you thank you for. Senator Cheatham thank you. Yes Sir first registered to a response to what you just ask in my Senate district the same issue they're all display probably is a. The lack of qualified bus drivers but. Currently the reason that is covered nineteen of most of our bus drivers for retirees and just up concerned about their health and so that's just to comment I would make that that is an issue right now but I agree when we took the health insurance where that also created problems. Thank you Mr thank you. All right resistant to of. For people ex the ex expenditures at this level in the first year seventy one three one point two to an animal drawful downloadable still first year did just for retirement you have the retirement at this year sixteen twenty one is thirty three and fifty so retirement is being added in as an adjustment so that makes that total for people is seven thousand one hundred eighty one. And so that's a two point three three. Increase for twenty two. Now. You can you can look over the next line of distillate chilled look at those you wall so I'm just going to go down the twenty two all that so. Any questions on any of that. Seeing none. The mood categorical. The E. L. L.. is still growing some. And as we know we're continue to roll this would bump that to percent to give them some more of the ali'i. Is probably. Continue to grow to I think that's something we need to look at next year's for shall how good that programs doing and how we can make that program to better did I'm sure a lot of schools that have a great day all the program some schools do not and I think all kids the to chance even though there. Sometimes are bad kids and on the outside the good kids inside we just need to figure out how to get to that good can get it out. We have an SLA down which is yes Sir ASA. And we need to look that is seventy percent those numbers of increased at one point six I talk to the part of it and they told me that the basically the increase of four PSA has been around one point one six. And or somewhere in that area so we increased safe by one for one six all the way up shall we down PD state flat. Four of the next two years. we have some some additional PD and the other lines over there. And so that is the categorical questions senator Chesterfield. Mister chair. This is in addition to the seven thousand one thirty one these categorical is is that correct. Addition to in addition to. Are you talking about a categorical funding E. L. L. S. three hundred fifty nine per student in addition the four thousand yes seven ninety four is in addition first two yes and I guess as I visited Ailey's I'm not saying that commitment and that's why I think we need to revisit that because you're talking about the in the eleven thousand dollars per child I don't see additional counselors over there which is what it was supposed to be we put in place it was supposed to be like the million we were supposed to be able to reform these key it's by providing extra resources. The additional counselors I don't see psychologist I don't see any of that so I think it's time for us to look at what is being what that money is being used for when you're putting almost five thousand dollars more over there to help those kids were in the. I thank eight eight eight you might miss one US sent us that some areas are doing well at it some or not and I think we need to visit that next year and look at how we can make this better what I'm saying to you that whether they're doing well and not they're not spending those resources we're not seeing extra canceling will not everybody is but I'm saying some more. I know I know I have one school in my area that does a great job and it and they have all those resources and and actually we actually to. Well those are some of the things we need to make sure we work on next year to get that fixed it's always next year okay well if you if you've got a solution the Dale tech. Discuss. That's exactly right that's what we're here for yeah. Well it's not gonna help me there but I just want to tell you this is this is not the day that we can fix that is something that takes a little time to fix. So we need to we need to work on that. Yes ma'am and we've talked about it I said mine and you said yours and if anybody else has one we'll talk. I was categorical. any other questions on categorical. Additional funding. Of if. As you notice the. Additional funding for the. ASA. Is At a flat rate of five point three because a lot of that is evidence base A what they have to apply for don't remember what the amount can be total but I say could be could be whatever it fits in that category so I don't know I don't remember I just a wee wee wee cap to five point three it at the general amount and anything else they have to ask for so specialist catastrophic had been pretty flat for a long time at thirteen or below and we brought it up this year thirteen thousand twenty thirteen million twenty thousand and the same for twenty one we both that on up for twenty two to thirty eighteen million five hundred thousand and two the thirteen million nine hundred ninety eight one fifty and twenty three it's a start it's something that needed to be started and it's a star is gonna be a slow climb to the point we figure out were were levels off. transportation. Asian right now our five million next year five million and then twenty two were figured six million and seventy two. seven point two million in the and twenty three. Next line is additional PD this is the PD that we've been using the new hiring for peel appeal C. route. that is at twelve five for these two years we've built that up a little bit twenty two to let it build continue on but two million and and but the other two million and twenty three soap or four million be been other added two million. Bottom line enhance salary fifteen million at twenty two fifteen million to twenty three of them that are much we need to continue on after that I'll take some questions and I'm going to ask the doctor named is if you want to come on up and get his presentation ready if you can't or a doctor Abernathy who was going to do it for the enhanced salary will show you look shall have some questions on that serial. Mr I have a question about the Innisfail to just be sure and remember correctly this is this is the funds so we changed our to where the schools the schools were applied for this for this fund what they had reply grants for yes he yeah and so and also is in the process they they have to have spent it and then get reimbursed or to be changed leave us correct yeah and in that. Is is that a matter of A ruling from the department of dead. That that's a rule not a not a law right this that that this is hello I'm not sure we put that in the matrix last session I believe that they have to that is that was the stipulation to get the money that was that was all road but I'm sure that had to go to rules yeah I don't remember it being in the law that's what that's what I'm trying to get clarity on that a district had to have. spent the money and then get reimbursed at four I wanted to get some clarity of ballot to get some clarity we have somebody from the park but it can answer that question in just give a yes or no because I think this because this gets us back to some of the discussion we've had you know even about the care is funding that how do you spend what you don't have or I want to be sure we get doctrine and is a skewed over okay we got a little bit. Okay secretary key a chance to send out a parent okay talk a little bit. By yourself for the record you're recognized Johnny key part of education center that is a matching grant program in the three areas the evidence based areas pre K. tutoring and believe. Before after school yes but once I read in it is it is a reimbursement so you have to spend it is to show how they spend it and then they apply for and the five point three million gets pro rated because we have to include more request for the matching funds then we have funds to provide are we getting eight of those requests and From the schools that are in the poor schools of the ones that are. The least advantaged financially are they able to participate in this. It is been a while since I've looked at it but I know some of the larger little rock school district It's a pretty good matching amount because of of how they use their in this ESA funding for pre K.. So I would but I would have to go back in. Look at it to get a better answer for you. Of because if and and Mrs this is this is all a system a rule by the department of ed as opposed to datas and state and the state law is that it is a rule and I believe that the that legislation gave us the for the forty in the obligation to create mechanisms right to get it out so in in fact and I just if the evidence shows that perhaps is not working the way we thought about it be easier that change that rule as opposed to something we put in. We pay put and statutes. I would I would agree with that yes all right and the other question I have missed a key one of the spread this catastrophic. how are we doing with funding for that is that work in the way we do we have enough money is what we're going the way we thought it would work I think it's too weird little premature don't think we have the data yet on that of the speed later probably by the fifteenth. Or so. Middle of the month. End of this month okay middle to the end of October before we will be able to calculate all that okay and Mr chair can we hear from since we've got folks here from the superintendents and what not what are not from the school district's perspective if they have enough money to meet their a a spade catastrophic obligations. Talk about on the. Look out catastrophic yes you will hear from a I I just like they did have a big discussion D. are you are you able to fund to what you need fund is all I'm asking. Agreement what let me let me ask does it by if the like for a security before he stepped down this road. Thanks Cherokee. Richard St nine. I'm Richard Abernathy exact director of a. And senator as you know there's been a lot of conversation around catastrophic funding in how that works and how it works for very schools you know when a senator Lansing rand study it showed a number and and the department kind of worked on the form a little bit I think we're closer but I and I you would need an expert in here to see exactly what's going on the credit catastrophic fund I think there are still some concerns yes and who's the expert that I should talk to I would is it was some school districts Eleazar to see what they're spending money on and how those dollars are being reimbursed if they are being ring bars that they have expenditures of of what what is being funded for so they could actually look at their data and their numbers and and get with the. So you don't know whether or not sign any school districts had issues funding in the first place so that they could apply for reimbursement that that's part of the issue in in in and of itself if you have the capacity to actually apply for the funds and make sure that it's all being reimbursed or or build out so it can be reimbursed so the the paperwork is one issue the funding is is another issue but again I'm not close enough to you that the then I would suggest working with a group of Ellie a sweet deal with it on a daily basis. So there's really not much help or what he wanted here but I don't know the misinformation that out now I don't want to give them this information but what I want it we're going to as we go through this I don't want to repeat something that's not working for people is what I'm trying to avoid you know in just to be you are clear about it my worry is that people might not have the money to spend for the for catastrophic needs therefore there is no application for reimbursement that's what my concern is and I I guess we don't have an answer for that today but it sure seems like something we ought to be getting an answer to a thank you may I certainly think that would be worth looking into. Thank you doctor doctor and. Thank you Mr chairman of the this is kind of a follow up to the question and I had just asked staff brought me some information on the school level resources so on the technology we funded them one twenty million the only spent forty eight instructional materials we funded eighty seven they spent sixty eight but on extra duty we fund at thirty one and they expended almost four times that a hundred four million and I wonder if it might be possible for staff to give us a copy of the matrix which shows the actual spent per these different categories so for example of for only spending one twenty in technology. Then and it looks like we fund the matrix is sixty six dollars for extra duty but they're clearly spending closer to two hundred fifty that maybe the matrix should say to fifty for rector duty and one twenty five for technology to give us a better alignment what's the actual spending as I want to see if that's something that the staff could put together for us what the actual. Spend per. Line item in the matrix is. Yes. House last year questions. No. Yes. Yeah that's that's okay that's okay analysts busy to so on that technology question I just asked the staff brought me a listing of the funding versus actual expenditures I want to see if it would be possible for the staff to work up a a copy of the matrix showing us what the actual spend per category is so for example if the per people spend on technology is only roughly fifty percent or one twenty five and the extra duty funding is currently sixty six dollars in the matrix but it looks like they're spending closer to two fifty that would allow us to better align. What the actual expenditure is. Raise you see kind of what I'm saying I know exactly what say you could move those lines anyway you will. Still put in the same pot right but it will. But it just be saying if if that some staff could work out what the actual what they're actually allocating you know what direct spending verses what we've we've got in the matrix. That might let us better align. What's going on. And our expectations. I would just look that the. Absent extra duty they're spending a hundred four and were only given thirty one. So set of the sixty six that we've allocated maybe what we need to be doing this. In our water of. So the a three to four times that and then reduce the technology corresponding like. To the. There's dollars of okay. Okay district okay so technology is two fifty to spend in ninety eight. Of our funds. And there's been a two seventy eight of All forced together that that's the federal funds right so if we if we give a more this they're going to spend less of the federal. Right right and and and are not necessarily feel about it but you could move that the supervisor aids you either spend less of that so the if you were transposon bill problem transpose I'm just thinking it might give us a better picture of what that aligning the actual. Keep the dollars the same but move the. Move the per pupil matrix allotment around to better reflect where the schools are actually spending the money. Just a suggestion for the committee to cater. I think I got one more Senator Sturch are you just popped up. He good. Sure. I have over looked you is that got there yet. By our doctor within two years you're ready to go. Thank you Mr chair in in Mr chair in and since this will be my last time to address this group I just want to he's been are working with the over the years and in that sense I am retiring out can say anything I want to today as to this be aware but it has been a pleasure and I know a lot of times you work is is very hard it's very difficult dislike this this discussion you had today I mean a lot of valid questions and and you know questions concerns etcetera in and I think you know represent makes on track when you look at all the expenditures of schools been in technology spending a lot more than what the makers provide but you can look at ever everyone knows line items is well and so we're here today to just to talk about salary disparity in this it's been an ongoing issues since the beginning of time probably in by senator elite suggested you know when that. Back in conversation with the matrix was developed you know some of the numbers were it is what it is if you're a large school you are benefited from the matrix if your school that cannot maximize your class size ratios then then sometimes you're you're not as benefit yes schools out there right now who actually have larger schools who have fewer teachers in the class ring bins provided funding in the matrix you have other schools out there that they have to hire more teachers that the matrix fund in order to make standards for accreditation so there there's nothing it is a great tool but is just that is a tool and and so what we. Represent Cozart chars this back on session with the the minimum teacher salary increase was how can we make it fair because if you do just put money in the matrix the large schools benefit the small schools continue to see a decline in when you're raising the minimum teacher salary schedule it has a bigger impact on small schools then does larger schools because typically your larger schools are already about that and they made decisions over the year that confession typically their their wealth the value of the mail is worth more in one school district based on their size so lot of variables at play into that particular your larger schools are well above the minimum in most case or the mode of the decisions that cost and to and to not be at that level so we are really concerned about the smaller schools That had a mill value less then meanings on our meal that you use when want to say that when you pay your taxes in the school district what one meal generation one school district varies dramatically from what A bill generates in another school district we have mills we have school dish after that one male might generate fifteen thousand dollars. Another school district pretty close to them it generates three million dollars so it doesn't take much to say that if I can increase my millage which all schools are by the twenty five your to emails that I have a substantial revenue stream coming in my school district that I can help pay my teachers more and typically those are the the larger districts have the larger value per meal not not all cases but in most cases it does so again it's kind of an advantage for the larger schools so we want to look at the the smaller schools one of that you a male brings or generates in that school district because they're really trying to get help the the poor school districts as well or to and then also you can look at you know was a family income and that school districts to really help determine is that a wealthy community and is that not a poor community and and we had a committee working on this for probably three months one trying generate one I cannot pay AD more salary than what you did because I think teachers are as much money as we can possibly get especially to get to it you can't pay him enough the black in some school districts paying more than other school districts and through that discussion We've come up with a whole list of issues and we brought those issues board but this one average incomes arcs that will fix it and now. I'm not saying it's perfect but I'm saying that is so certainly something that that you would like to consider is moving forward now all schools would generate some revenue by this but when you stop and think in this look in your own district board what do you what do your poor schools in our district thank you personally report schools in her district and as you go through this you can look and see if that kind of fits the model that you think of when I think of a poor school verses wealthier schools and look at that number this generated from this formula for you a mass is a so doctor Hernandez of the here take my place in in January and you're gonna see a lot of great things come from the socialization so he has really develop the formula and that is that we're going to show you some turn this over to doctor Hernandez and and let him kind of work through the process and and then after that would be glad to answer any questions doctrine and is of you state your name the with yes Sir at my command as a a executive director elect very sad to see doctor ever have to go that looking forward to working with the US and continue to work that I did in and past roles so wanted I think it's important to really take a step back as well in and and look a little bit it it you know how we talked about some of this in the past related to the sixty million given the districts as part of the enhanced minimum salary teacher act in so in doing that you know when that funding was distributed it was based on you know how far away district was from that thirty six thousand dollar threshold and then in addition to that what was their F. TV's and that was kind of the basis of that and so in putting this together with this committee you know we try to really focus on doctor Abernathy said on some other factors related to school size how did that compare with the state average and the reason why we used average as opposed to medians is that we really looked at trying to get to the. Wires the really big schools persons the really really small schools and use an example that the Senator Elliot brought up earlier when you think about Marvell lane they made a lot of sacrifices in adjusted their budgets to may be over that thirty six thousand to begin with so they didn't benefit out of this last formula with this they do because it takes it takes into account some of those factors The next thing that we looked at is we said okay will how how does the value of a meal and so we have places that very that you know they may generate six hundred thousand per mil locally versus some districts that they generate fourteen thousand a bill and so when you take some of those things into account as an important factor to consider and looking at this and then kind of the final thing was household income you know you may have districts that have very wealthy assessments very high assessments but when you look at their household incomes because they may have a lot of businesses in the community but they have a lot of rental properties within their school districts that takes into account that and how does it compare with the average median incomes across our state I will say that the data that we used is you know some of it's a little bit behind another some more current data that will go into these calculations as we move forward but to give you a basis of where some of these numbers came from their very similar to the how the facilities wealth index was re created as part of the facilities funding so all kind of jump into words that the fifteen million come from as was discussed a little bit earlier the sixty million over four years that's how we try to say okay we know that as a committee is part of the discussion we knew that getting to that That fifteen million dollars was important we do that was something that had already been invested and so when we structured this one of the components we used to assist eleven dollars and fifty cents and and what that is is that something that's multiplied times those various aspects of various ratios of the the previous three things that I mention and and that can kind of wiggle in trying to to back into that fifteen million dollars to make sure that the spread over the districts is around fifteen million dollars Sir all kind of give you an example of the spreadsheet that I'm getting ready to show you but when you look at specifically do with it it's always the first one on our school list because of its Ellie a number at a hundred sixty four thousand is what a one mill generates that's based on twenty eighteen their prior a year three quarter ATM from fiscal year twenty was eleven eighty one house on medium income was thirty eight thousand and then these ratios or what what it was looked at in terms of an average so to give you a little bit of background when you look at the average value the mill in Arkansas it was about two hundred fourteen thousand seeing see their little bit under hence why their values a little bit bigger than one okay the second one we look at average AT and the average ATM in Arkansas was one thousand nine hundred forty one point two seven students and so you can see they're they're a little bit under the average ATM and then in medium out household income that was around forty one thousand eight hundred thirty seven dollars and twenty nine cents and so you can see into with their little bit over so when you take all these factors you get a total multiplier of this two point three six one all those factors in a play with each other and then we take the eleven dollars and fifty cents and multiply that times the multiplier and then times whatever that three quarter AT and is to get the total amount it's going to be funded based on the number of students now in committee discussion you know this is it doesn't go all the way to meet the expect. Patients but it's one of those that as you give your Coal increases at the same time that plays into a factor and the district trying to get more efficient at the same time this goes to kind of meeting meeting together and trying to address some of their key issues. S. R. owl before I go over to the spread sheet is anybody have any questions or pulled prejudice yes I have a couple of your your you don't wanna answer questions now or you want to hear this Richey. Or you want to know what your your last year now okay okay rustler. Thank you Mr chair since the the formula that you present does a take into consideration the value of a mill. Should we take by that assumption that. Charter schools are not eligible for this grant since they don't have millage is Sir we mayor this directly off of the sixty million that was allocated out there and the way it is set up is based on assessment and because I don't we don't have them be ineligible for this in this plan so what what would be the solution for making sure make because charter schools are public schools as well we want to make sure that they can pay that minimum teacher salary and in many cases they teach a longer school year a longer school day what we do to to equalize and support them. And I think that's it definitely discussion we'd be happy to have I think one of the things that we ran into in the discussion was most of if not all have a waiver from the mentor and teacher salary schedule and so that was a factor in kind of trying to figure out what do we do about that issue. Okay alright thank you thank you Mr chair. Go ahead so all kind of dive into the the spreadsheet and show you by size and then I'll show you the total funding amount and so Paula Jones for this being the kind of a long spray G. but you can kind of see when you look at size this particular one is right by size and you can kind of see how some of those small districts at. Fair. And as you go down just districts that you would think of and I'm accomplish grow over so keep that in mind so the funding part you can kind of see how it jumps around so it's not exactly based total on size of the district alone it has some of these other factors related to mill the even bill ATM ratio and the median income ratio so in this one which is kind of a little bit easier to see. Kinda hit if you value Sir what may help you come to see the funding amounts like this little smaller. So this is by funding so the top school under this formula that would get at the most money with the PO in a school district there by the mails fourteen thousand dollars there ATMs five hundred seventy two and their average at. Are there median income household household incomes forty four thousand so with all of these factors being under and this one being significantly that multiplier is is fairly high so it would generate on an annual basis around three hundred twenty thousand Earl school district which again is another a district that has a very low value of a bill also a low a DM and then a low household income you know has a significant factor in so as you scroll down and out I know I mentioned marble so kind of scroll down a little bit to Marvell and. Around at about eighty nine thousand so they're at valuable bills a little bit higher so in comparison still below the average state average us below the average in ATM and then household income below average other multiplier be in twenty three of six but because the numbers students when you multiply that out it's about an eighty nine thousand annual on going commitment with this. And so all kind of scroll toward the bottom so you can kind of see and where these things because we used again averages to really accentuate some of that out wires when you get towards the bottom and think about some of the larger districts when you see average Average household income assessment values ATM ATMs and things like that those multipliers significantly small and so you can see everybody gets funding on with this formula but one of the key things is is there's not very much for as you have some of these hi high numbers of ATM high numbers of household income high numbers assessment. Read questions. Yes Sir. Sir Johnson. Thank you Mr chair of. Doctor Abernathy doctor named is thank you for sharing this of if I may take a very quick note of personal privilege Mr chairman I've I've I've it ages me when I say doctor Abernathy retiring I've known him most of my life his dad was my junior high principal in Conway so it's just one of those senior moments that I have been a I don't preach eight that Richard be honest with you but I wish you the very best to retire with thank you we want to keep working. all this is to both of you and ask you to to Phyllis in of. If weeks our experts if the Democrats demographic trend we expect in the census and course that for flex everything including our our district populations continues where all the more rural and are less rural and more but in general are you gonna do is look at the size of the fourth congressional district to realize just how certain parts of states have just lost population and then the. Does your projection based on this information that you put in the spreadsheet I I'm sure it's good numbers for twenty twenty one and all that but I don't like the trend direction and I think we've got to. At least think about where this is headed not just where we are for this upcoming session do you all have any projections ideas about that particular problem and may be a way we can put some. I don't know multipliers kickers adjustments the whatever into that so we can not find ourselves back this is still in equitable or are inadequate as we move forward. Just a couple thoughts amend these these numbers will will change it'll it'll change has no sense is that it comes in as no house house hold income comes in as in Rome it goes up or down in so you know the the transportation forms can static committed is a number and and that's that's the miles long chains the people will that the track is. So the bill will very based on what the new data assets and like not Fernandes said you know some of this state is already little behind this problem more current data but the three factors and the way those three factors play off of each other it's really what develops the ratio but those those racial change. Do you have a heavy maybe I should ask it this way have you looked at how and where they will change. No that's counter for a hundred we have not yeah and all of that I'll close Mr us say I presume doctrine in addition you will be regularly recalculating this and and trying to keep it is current as possible because this is this is obviously going to be a major tool and how we deal with this. This act fair to say. I think you know one of the important aspects to think about is this is kind of a vehicle that's been added to this overall discussion and trying to address the point of of an equity in specially smaller school so I think back you know getting it started I think on a regular basis it can be looked at re tooled in modified to to meet needs you know based on the factors that you're talking about. Yes be happy to be involved in that discussion is okay thank you both so much they're Johnson as we talked about this when they brought this to me we talked about this being a of flexible school at bill flexible we'll move every year little bit one way or the other I thank you may not move much for two years but then it could move in the third year so I think it's going to be some changes and no and they're on top of the. Senate just fill. Thank you Mr chair in congratulations to both of you congratulations on your retirement congratulations on your summing this new duty doctrine and and having served with. the father of the retiree and the Arkansas house of representatives and working with his mother this is a. interesting moment in time to say the least thank you ma'am of help me to better understand when we when we allocate specific amounts for various categories and those category amounts under spent for instance thirty sixth sense that we spend per student the supervisory aids. Then that falls to the discretion of the school district as to how they will expand the other moneys do you have some sense of how they are doing that are they using those extra dollars to enhance the salaries are to provide the technological assistance that we're going to need to have some sense of how that goes when the category is not being utilized totally as is put into the funding formula. I have my take on and after her name this can take it from there but you know we we have talked time for many years about the disconnect between school practitioners and legislative policy makers because policymakers I understand you're you're looking at the data you're looking at the numbers and plug in an entertaining places and school administrators and and see if I was a district a look at that bottom number from that bottom number they go back and build their budget how many staff members that had the need to cover first grade second grade all those how many extra curricular and I science courses than the in the back that in what was a standard accreditation say I have to have in library media specialist and so they but based off the standards for accreditation and based off of the man that exist that they were required to have and so that this the disconnect in in when you look at salaries and what provided in the matrix because I know that's a big discussion that we've had here the report will constantly say that that school stand under spend less in salaries then was provided in the matrix but if you look over on that very next line and says what all the schools are spending on salaries and it's actually hi seven have this just happened to this showed up I don't know but you know schools traditional schools meant by the matrix provides thirty two eighty two school district spent three thousand eighteen but then when you consider all other funds are spent over thirty six hundred dollars in salaries now some of this federal dollars some local dollars some this dollars coming from this mill that we were talking about that they're able to generate input and salaries so it it's there's just a disconnect between you know practitioners and policy makers I don't think that's the fault of anyone but and I understand the frustration five set in this committee for a long time the you think I'm putting money here they may be spending it here just like technology you know we're spending ninety eight dot. Hours in the matrix on technology yeah when you look at what all schools are spending is two hundred seventy eight is more than what the matrix is providing so easy if you mandate the matrix inside we're saying you turn fifty Bucks back on you will spend it there you just cut out everything over here that I was spending so then I have to move money around the other issue on salaries that we've talked about if I may large district and I can maximize my class size I make money off it okay I'm I hire are harmless teachers in what you're funding for but from a smaller school district out there and I have forty three kindergarten kids the makers going provide made for just a little over two teachers to kindergarten teacher I've got higher three make standards and so that money has to come from somewhere and is probably as to the pain they will tell you pay a teacher fifty thousand dollars I might play them forty thousand dollars but then hires three of a instituciones though those are just some of the issues that I thought at the top of my head thank you that that really I think helps to clarify a lot because we put these here we anticipated being spent out of this but the bottom line is you have to spend it where it is most needed. And it is of concern to me that we still have laid the we she's just with it. And. I know we work hard to address them but we still have lake view issues in that a teacher who may have two masters degrees working in lake village is never going to make. What a person with a master's degree saying that the bill is going to our little rock is going to make and therefore we never quite get to equity. And I'm never sure if we actually ever get to adequacy which is supposed to be the to driving forces but we continue to try and centers we drive on a very good point one is going to and then discuss some for over a decade you know being able to higher quality teachers and retain them makes a huge difference on your your your statements and and their ability to vote total are some of these areas who are not able to pay their teachers will find a mobile teacher I'm late I'm I'm going to district someone like twenty thousand dollars more and this that were bring forward we thank helps you know I don't know if it's going to solve the problem but it certainly helps in as you move forward again same thing and they now so but as you move forward that that thirty six thousand dollars for minimum teacher salaries doesn't need to stay there you need to continue bringing that minimum teacher salary schedule up. The fifteen million that we have built in here it and they'd be stagnant because the stagnant for years we won't look up and have the same thought so as the minimum teacher salary goes up that fifteen million these to go up which will be fun more towards a smaller poor school districts thank. What is troubling ease in your smaller school districts you start out sometimes with a higher salary. But in ten years you're still close to where you were when you started and that's something we have not addressed so strategically is superintendent I always try to pay A this is when I was a smaller school district I played try to pay my beginning teacher salary more because I wanted to get those teachers here even if I was just a training ground for a larger school district that that bordered me I could still him for five six seven years before the salary schedule called up and they were able transferring get higher degree so that I understand what you're saying and I thank you thank you Mr. Senator Sturch. Thank Mister doctor and and is not damaged appreciate you working on this I just had a quick question and of course with the last grant program that we did the sixty million dollars their schools of course that may not qualified first year because they were already there they may have called up by the next year when they were there I understand that we will always have winners and losers but with this I I'm kind of asking I guess if there was ever any discussion about a certain drop off to where they would be less folks getting a thousand dollars extra and maybe ten thousand are below they're not getting this so that money goes into the pot for everybody else as far as you know if a school district comes down to ten thousand dollars left the bank is a bigger problem than teacher salaries so I guess my question is why then everybody all the way down and not cutting it off at a certain level. So yes center we had that discussion you have to remember that we are a membership driven organization and dislike the three fifths you're on your way out. But I was working on it to. A would you mentioned to a about their some schools that may still be drawn that sixty million at that they would not draw any of this total that is Collins that correct what we talked about if there were still some left on their balance. So there there's from a policy perspective there's several things that you need taken account you know they're sixty million dollars set aside schools could draw that down over a four year period or they could also draw down all at once in so some school districts drew off for years the first year and so they have nothing left in their Cup other schools throughout you know you're one and and now you're to I still have three and FOR out there so in trying to figure out because there there's some some schools that they're it on your three and four that are really going straight would make salaries and so transfer it will how can you be as far as you can and at the same time I'm I'm I don't districts double dip in either and so if I got on the money up front and then I displayed in this kind of double dipping and so what was thought about then was going ahead and saying you know basically they they get the better of the two in so if you've already drawn down all your money well you probably won't be able to despite this until the new format kicks into it that would increase your funding passport you bart drawn down that makes any sense if I haven't drawn down all my money the sixty million Then this is probably not all of the for most and this would be more beneficial to them then the not so there needs to be a mechanism in place just make sure that you're protecting the state funded not not having districts drawdown more money than what they would be qualified for. I would know how to but that a motion that the it is a concern when you're looking and implement in this. He finished. But. Representative makes. Thank you madam chair and doctor Abernathy will will definitely mission appreciate your work you've done for the state easy softball question eyes you are calculating this one easy one end with right the the the eighty I'm assuming that it's to try to capture the number of teachers that are actually on site on the school district have you look at that to make sure that that ATM is truly reflective of the number of teachers that are at a school district and that would qualify. You know their their first year second year teachers that will qualify for this because there Adam below the minimum salary. Is that a good indicator of that. So the ATM is is based off the the students the the average a motion with the state so the number teachers in this doesn't have anything to do with it so that the districts are still incentivize to to run as efficiently as they can what doctor Hernandez was talking about earlier on the current sixty million dollars it was based off of their current if the even numbered teacher R. this doesn't this tax in your state of population so as a as a school board I still have an incentive because I want my teachers also having Senator run as efficiently as I can does that help you yes at tower basing it on students versus actual teachers that's right okay Senator. Senator Elliott. Thank you Mr chair on just two questions I think it's one is of did we include a teachers and discussion of coming up with this formula was it just administrators. To the committee that we worked with this comprised of administrators only only yes ma'am what was the. A. This simple because the committee that we set up as part of the administrator socialization we just had administrators and and not Didn't include teachers okay so Mr chair what was that. Why was that that we did not did have teachers as a part of this is what this is about teacher salaries. By Senator Elliot I did not choose this group I just AS the super to association to try to figure out some issues that we need to figure out on this and they're charging too that I stopped my choice. The senator out the I'll take blame on that no word word ministers socialization we're charged everyone's while the variety of things in this case and try to come up with a solution for for you to consider and how we can actually final more money towards teacher salaries and help the small school districts so I naturally think since we're membership organization that that I'm Bob my members the and superintendent specifically because they're gonna be one kind of carrying the torch on this particular bill and dishonestly then crossed my mind to involve teachers in this discussion as we have multiple discussions going on we do work with teachers but I and I did not include those on the committee. Okay my second question has to do with. It it's it seems to me in this I'm asking your professional question here judgment question not necessary about this it seems to me when it comes to teacher salaries we kind of look at the north stars be and. Whatever districts are paid in the high salaries however. But. Do you think we ought to be thinking about teacher salaries in terms of setting up our own north star. Of. How we think we ought to compensate teachers. Depending on the profession but a man and the the necessity and so forth as opposed to we usually just choose a number we have a study in that in that talks about salaries we look at surrounding states speaking with other states in the country do you think we ought to be thinking about. A different way of said in the north star for what we want to how we want to compensate our teachers and then figure out how we're going to do. A Sir yes for my opinion professional that's what I'm yeah that's what I'm asking for because I know there's a professional thing it there's plenty of evidence for your opinion to be based on so I'm not asking for baseless decision that's why I said professional opinion so Sir I think you know my opinion would be that you know districts really and communities as a whole really need to think about you know how they are compensating teachers I think they need to look at as as this body is done made pathways to the crew continue and things like that to really look at not necessarily across the board you know what people should make but you know based on skill level based on attainment you mentioned earlier I specifically about keeping the best talent in the class were or somebody did and and I think those things they do look be looked at I think the professional learning communities that's been discussed in this committee a lot and I work with that it is a very good vehicle to be able to look at those things and try to figure out if we truly want to embrace this is a state you know what is that look like how does the funding mechanisms look like to do that how do we come to terms with differentiated pay scales and and ways to drive that you know being able to say that the high cost of state we're gonna pay teachers and just thrown out a number you know seventy thousand dollars a year eighty thousand dollars a year I thank you under the current structure that were in and how we deliver education I think would be very hard to do that right and that would just be an affordability top top thing in my opinion. I would board what I'm getting at though is even if it's and affordability top thank don't do you think as we study adequacy and equity in all this. Do we need to provide some leadership to the folks of the state that if we really want our C. very serious about education and we want to get great teachers and keep great teachers we are just not right to say here's what it should be. Here's what it should be. Or for example if we are looking for of a football coach. Out we don't start I say what we're going to pay that football coach I'm John by the college level this time because people know that if we want to hire a new razorback football coach we don't start us and then we're going to and here's the amount of money we're going to pay you before we start talking. Of we set our standards at. What we want in that person we might have some idea. But everybody gets to know we're looking for the best and we would do whatever it takes to get that person and keep that person I'm just asking for as we have these discussions we we set a number and we try to make that number fit something it just feels backward to me. As opposed to having a north star for our state this is what we want our education system to be like here's what we wanted to look like we may not be there we want to be more than adequate I would think we also want to compensate teachers here's what it ought to look like and it may or may not have to do with differentiation in may may not because a lot of evidence to show that really depresses morale so I'm just asking you just for down the road should we be thinking about this in a way. That we're not thinking about it now. That's. Governor you respond timely even again I say whatever I want the my answer me yes we should that the hard part is. Not necessarily the pay how you start differentiating those teachers who deserve more paying and those that may not and that's when you get a whole open up a whole can of worms on that but there's been successful models out there tapped model may know some of Arkansas schools ran that for for a company or thank you so I wanted to schools then that Should repair best teachers the most money I've always thought you should but we're going to have to get out of you know thinking of of Standardize salary schedules throughout the district and I said that's a harder conversation well I want to be clear that the I I that's a conversation for folks have if they choose to but I I'm not discuss and my discussion is not about by this differentiated pay and not that may be a part of it I didn't think it was no no it's it's not because the evidence is pretty clear it it's that doesn't work the way people think it works because generally what happens is a lot of people reach that they've reached the goal we're looking for the next thing we decided to start things we can't afford it I'm not against having the discussion but anyway I I just I was conspires had the same question too about when it gets to be a thousand something dollars you know good point to east district to and I recognize. A year your membership driven that matter than one of the things had we had teachers involved that might have been mitigated because teachers might have understood that perhaps you know a thousand dollars to a district may be better off going to a district that has two hundred fifty teachers and you know. So the sometimes less importance of having more people at the table thank you all very much. Represent Lowery. Thank you Mr chairman and I I'm going to pick you back off of that of making sure that all. You know it it it is a shame that we all have the same common goal is so we want what is best for the kids make sure that they've got the best education that they could possibly receive any yet we have the separate silos in terms whether its membership driven or whatever the separate silos of how to get to that point and we do a great disservice of we don't have everybody at the table in the end so I'm circle back to my concern about charter schools not being. One included in this conversation and second late not being included in the solution. And it's not enough to say well charter schools they get a waiver on minimum teacher salaries. Some school districts can get a waiver is that not correct Mr chair correct okay so that's not a good reason for us not including all entities all interested stakeholders. In this conversation. So I hope before we get too far along in in dealing with this this issue of how to avoid the clear of that we get everybody involved in this to bring their own proposals to the table in. That hopefully we will have enough opportunity. We'll have enough enough opportunity to hear from teachers as senator Elliott has been asking and secondly that we could have charter schools also involved in this conversation is that a possibility Mr chair. Not today but I mean I think we could have one in the future a part of it you know that the the problem was originally when this one out was about the militia tech I know millage so there are some issues along with the the formula will work for them who would have to be a totally different formulas. So we've got to figure out something else. Well it. Exactly and since millage is the is the issue if this if a charter school entity that they don't even have that to factor in in that city that city but greater inequity that has to be dealt with and probably should have included this a separate assignment of mission your help how do we make sure that we don't slip further and further into a lack of fairness and we're we're certainly doing that as it applies to charter schools and not more I don't have a problem with including charters if we can figure out a way to make that work okay well them and us not I'm not saying we can't I just don't know how to make that that conversion it would be something we have to do different for just for charters well I know that. They're listening and watching her hopefully as we speak the trying to come up with some kind of a solution that they're warning transient ocean funds to so right to be included some of that so there's some things we've got to work out with the charters okay thank you very much. not sure you see eighty two is. But. Okay Fred fight at a they don't have your name on there go in for okay thank you Mr rose thank you Mr chairman. As they. I'm a little bit confused so this is my first time here and education but there are some things that really don't understand but I need to understand but I want you all to help me understand. How does this. Fund the matrix. addressed the law of the lake view lawsuits when we talk about an adequate teachers facilities. The lack of resources of what Porky it's so tell me. If we vote on this today how will this. Address that loss of. Total. In the very good very good question because off I guess it goes back to like be you know and things and leave you was teachers salaries in the disparity in teacher salaries was part of that conversation back in the day so this is trying to go directly at the disparity in the teacher salaries and trying to close that gap the last couple years we did close it a little bit because the minimum salary schedules going up but as you're close that gap and small schools are not receiving the funding to pay for that they're having to cut things out of all for an adequate education for kids it may be a program that they didn't implement for kids because they're they're having a pool money to pay A teacher's salaries it said were so this this in my opinion goes directly at the heart of lake view that we're trying to click trying to help the smaller schools hi there teacher salaries I still have money to implement programs academic programs at center for for the kids so I I thank I thank you have a bigger problem it the small schools and are not able to pay the salaries that on the bigger problem if the disparity to widen this is trying to address that to help close some of that disparity so we it appears that we have funding the that it was. So the only way that we can truly dressed this. It's fund it adequately am I correct. Twenty nine tire system adequately yes Sir yes I think that was part of the charge yes Sir. So we're not doing that then we're not actually. Solving the problem I think what we're doing today we are addressing it. But we're not really coming out with the with the true solution to the problem. I think it is a move in the right direction does it can do not solve all the problems in in education funding in school now but it it does move in the right in a positive direction. I will be moving at this pace for the last ten years that and we still haven't got that is kinda interesting because if you go back just a few sessions ago the and it was a committee solve the issue and transportation in they matter fact they made by recommendations to either start pulling money out of transportation or setting up a categorical and that was stopped and the reason it was stop was for the concern of lake view and the concern of moving away from the matrix and and and as. Leadership and legislature was changed you know now you're starting to address some of the issues like transportation like salaries that you know the problem in your starting that the to address those problems I think that that that's what the court intended for the legislature day is when you then five problem because it changes over time but we identified your least taking steps to address that particular issue. Thank you but I think the key is a adequate funding for our teachers. I think that is one of the keys. Thank you for your comments. And and we agree for that. I thank you interrelated steps it's steps this is a big thing that started a long time ago you can't just jump out of it jump right into the fire it takes steps and I think we're making those steps it is slow process and I know some people you know we're only here for short time we might not ever see this finished up but I think we're making steps and the progression so. All right leave this is Robson Dotson. Thank you Mr chair I kind of agree with. What will probably never make a perfect formula but within the formula we currently have in what you're presenting to us today yes I just have a couple questions on districts obviously you're you're putting their the value of a mill. As part of your formula but did you take into account any The the districts that have passed higher mileage rates and lower mileage rates like. How does that play into your overall all formula if if a district is. Nope. Has a really high millage rate verses another district that has a very low mileage rate What what. What responsibility does local district have to have some some buy into this and then secondarily to that have you taking into account the efficiencies of individual districts I mean some smaller districts are are doing well they're they're they're hitting those minimum threshold they're paying their teachers well but others are not manage thing their resources quite as well as others and how does that factor into your your formulas that you're kind of presenting across the board because if one can do it very well with similar size school population similar size millage rate similar size It's not necessarily going to be a a problem to solve by us throwing some more money at it it it seems to be more a root cause of the district level. So I'll start out but our doctor Abernathy will add a little bit in as far as the. The additional mills or above I think one of the things that we run into is it depends on what those additional mills for and in some cases you may have districts that any mills where they be dedicated in the no mail for things like transportation technology a renovation of buildings verses debt mills is is of things that need to be looked at and and when you look at how much of that debt mills is actually truly going to pay debt versus some of it may have access that no because assessments have raised that's what made it difficult to be able to put that is a factor about how many meals in in doing that calculation and overall just looking at the value came out to be something that was more across the board but I I think in some cases some local districts have increased their millage to dress additional salary so when you look at Some districts across the state as part of their increase and they're above the twenty five mills they've specifically at a local level have dedicated that toward salaries and but not everybody is done that so those are those are a couple few answers your questions but what wasn't really taking into account for the purposes of this formula. Just the value of the value of a mill locally the ATM. Average daily membership and then the household income where the three main factors that we looked at. And we did actually look at them have and local district effort and I think is what you're get in that mine sure that they're not nine maintain and just the bare minimum by on their millage but it got a little more difficult because buys doctor Hernandez says some of those have dedicated even for salaries some for facilities some for whatever and it it became. Confusing in so instead was settles back off of that list look at the value of a mill in and it's a lease fair now what they choose to locally spend that them in this committee up to their local communities this one also went back on the on the salaries that he can't let that set at thirty six you need to continue rights and up and they will have to make decisions at the local level on how they're going to keep up with which also kinda goes into your efficiency issue as the questions earlier this says nothing do with FTE he's you know that so they still have to hire enough teachers or custodial staff or whatever then they have to hire enough people to run that district so this form that this not incentivize them to hire more so they're going higher net to make standards to a higher enough take care of their needs locally but then also will make that mental teacher salary schedule the only thing this does is trying to help them meet those to our schedule and not cut their academic programs to to the point that the kids don't have anything to do this but in. So so. This formula you didn't necessarily look specifically efficiencies. That some districts are those are being as long as they can meet standards as long as they can meet the the mental teacher salary schedule of set by policy then they're gonna take care of their needs as the down five the local level for and I give you another example because when you start. Trying to dictate that everyone of our schools are different some schools spend a lot more honest on school safety than other school resource out some schools to spend more on mental health issues than than others so I I think that flexibility that level has to pass remaining this is not drive in any fission sing because they're still had to meet the minimum requirements and take your in the suit against. Thank you. Senate Kevin all. Thank you Mr chair this is really more procedure question for you if we vote today and we vote to put money for in this and had salary we're just voting for a dollar amount we're not building for the formal has calculated. We're voting for dollar amount of fifteen million that that formula's may tweak a little bit point out to so we have an opportunity to change the actual formula how that would be just distributed we will ask for a formula and then if we want will look it over and see if we want to change it so the next year's committee meetings. Representative Beck. Thank you thank you Mr chair. Of. I like the form and as it is I do have a question the. The salary the mediums of salary level I guess not a salary but household income skews me. Explain to me why why that's and I'm not downing I just it's it's is security other ones I can attach a sassy that how that works but the that when I do not. So one of one of the factors that we looked at is that you know in districts that sometimes have very high assessments their local folks have income center or well below other districts and so as far as the you know value of local participation all those types of things we wanted that to be a factor similar to how it's done in in the facilities wealth index formula as well and so we captured a few of those items like the value of the mill and facilities wealth and the entire household income like that's in the facilities wealth index calculations and brought those over in order to kind of keep those formulas very similar and how they were calculated. Follow. This is maybe not even follow up apologize but it's just not by without another question so did you guys doing the calculations the I I think I cuts earlier we were saying that you backed into the fifteen million is the which. Hey one given that you back into the fifteen million so have you guys done any calculations as far as looking at the discrepancies in the in the teacher salaries in the smaller school districts and. And more roles smaller school districts at this rate If we continue to do this the your your this additional funds and have salary fund is about a thirty percent of the the other one so are we gonna keep one in the gala we should we should be closing at slightly but how long is it going to take before we get these all the school districts. whether or not. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. For the salaries. I think the judge consider that are I mean. Widening I don't think you're winding it I think I think you're going to close it by things will be a very slow process. And that yes Sir I think you'd be a slow process I thank I don't I don't know if you can jump from here to. Find us our schedule on one year you know I know the law schools like to do that that that's that's not realistic so the that is steps in in this will be a slow process and but you know one of the things that when when the sixty million came out I we had service superintendents it is that that that they have made a conscious effort kind goes back to I think maybe represent Dotson they made a conscious effort to increase our salary schedules and they weren't getting any benefit from that because there are ready thirty five or thirty six whatever the case five may be in for that particular district but that also set their entity but they differed expenditures they had buses that that night they need to purchase and I didn't purchase buses because they won't put it in a teacher salary pool so in a matter of fact the district that we saw thank you hi one they benefited a little bit but their salary schedules already pretty pretty far up there they were not at the minimum beget there other expenditures that a do or other areas they may take care of for their kids have been deferred trying to paying the teachers of most in and that's that's what makes a school business more complicated because there's no turn thirty five school districts in yet charters on top and every single one number different every single one of my a different needs they have different politics at the local community they need to deal with so. Some of the issues in the and things represent Dotson mention some schools can you know similar size similar well similar everything in in putting different that may be true well that's not made that is true but they might have emphasized other things instead of paying you know larger class size maybe they they've they've in their community want to smaller class sizes and they're willing to pay for that what if you have smaller class size I'm so that we have the same money and teachers are going to get that the salary schedule so I just only factors in it that I don't know if we can there's no magical form I do think this is a step in the right direction to help the poor schools out there but is is is not going to get to where you want to be over now so we'll up but would you agree that if we took money out of the matrix were saying two point five Stevie two point two five and move more make a portion of that money into this other. Site out into the fifteen day inside can that speeds up process that on the correct. Well it would speed up the process for some but you know the thing that that I guess that we can all agree on I as a superintendent is that the color on the the foundation funds is a must you're constantly having expenditures go up you're constantly have an additional mandates that that have to be funded through that that the couple is the minimum this would be just strictly for the poor schools trying to meet that that salary issue in an untidy when you look at the a two point three three percent increase there will be a lot of smiles out there because this large increase schools have gotten in years which is great. But spending will go up to help the larger schools by more salaries when is this supplement will come in and and help those schools at least maintain the minimum salary schedule and hopefully more. And I'm not sure if I mentor question I don't think I'll let doctor in the in this and and answer his bill better job that I don't know if they can get close. I thought that I'd get what you're saying and I'm just trying to say is if this is going to be a tool that we're gonna use of because eventually it's okay I we can just do away with this at some point you will we do that then everybody's going to fall right back. Kinda where there were about fifteen million yes it's so it's it's set to continue as long as working at our we can adjust each legislator ace legislative session can adjust that in the way they feel needed. They're only bound to. So about two or session. So the increase it the point I'm trying to make is increasing that number speeds up this process of our spot Ballinger have now. Whether not we would take it away from the other level or are come up with it magically somewhere else would be up to us but but that's the way to speed up the process because it's going to be a long process. This call. I do like to form. I have a question real quick. did I hear you say this is salaries only or this is some other things that will be used for besides salaries. In benefits and benefits so this I mean this this fifteen million snuggle by school buses. Now okay them. I mean so and I just mention that we have schools who had fired their cost and so let's go back to the PO one in and I were any school let's say right now they're currently above the thirty six thousand dollars for minimum teacher salary but they were deferred some cost submit some needed expenditures in order to get there so yes this money needs to go toward salaries but that's not to say that that it's going to increase our salary above what the minimum is It's kind of like. So we're so we're back of that were back in the box were drawn money of the if we do that one if if we if we allow them to use it for something besides salaries. Number the bill to you for salaries. But that's not to say the foundation funds that you're given on the two point thirty three percent increase with all those hours no I understand that the fifty million asked to go to this hours only has to be evidence but in benefits yes benefits evidence based well that's what we would propose an obvious that to okay thank you that that that clarified some questions of thank you represent Lowery. Whatever you're ready. Yes. Thank you were having a conversation thank you Mr chair A. Want to get clarity clarification from you I think you said something about us voting on this amount today is that correct. That is correct this last meeting we have before this has to be in. I I really just. I have a real problem with hearing something that is so totally brand new to the matrix conversations the discussions and I understand what you said voting on the amount but that we can vote on the formula. At the battle no other time a later time because this is this is money that will go in. By any of after next is that correct yes Sir we revisit this at the end of next session to make any changes you want to okay so why why is it that we're having to approve this particular amounts today well this is when we approve it this all goes this whole amount has to be figured in the. This call matrix amount to hold funding matrix all the way down has to be presented to the pro tem and the of Speaker by November the first and it has presented to the governor okay so so we've we've got almost four more weeks three and a half weeks we have no more meetings budget is coming next week. We have no more meetings this is usually when we make this decision. Well I I know the issue of mental teacher salaries is a is a. Critical issue that we you know we want to make sure that we're doing the right thing but I think it's highly responsible for us to have something that is totally I mean even just the conversation that just took place about whether this is truly below the line categorical money or not if it's categorical that is categorically can only be spent on teacher salaries and Sir So the issue of whether we're voting on an amount it is not the only issue the other issue is is this part of the matrix or is it categorical and if it's categorical. Then it has to be mandated for that purpose I just. It is categorical and it will be put in after we do all this though right all the stuff to put this in there. Amended bill still have to go through the process is like everything else we have to vote on this next session. Or within the is the vote to move forward and when when when would we be voting on the actual distribution formula. Well the distribution formula would be something that I would say that this committee could look at and and but it we don't I mean we accept this right there the rich the one original one is up there you don't have an actual copy of it but whether gets tweaked a little one way or the other the one that's before us that's one before you this section include charter school does not it you could charter schools that would have to be added. So I can't thank this could charter schools were never in that figure. Because of the mileage. To be a separate formula maybe even a separate line. Possibly more. Okay I you know I mean I know I know that you. That's what I'm saying if we if we choose next year during committees there committee time to add charters is still something we re visit at the end of the year before it goes to the next session T. are the next to hear that we can change this one way or the other okay and and so let me understand since we're if we vote today on this amount and then later do consider. A change to the formula that includes charters that is going to affect. The amount that goes to other public schools out of this fifteen million correct yes I don't have much that would affect it yes it would change their formula from eleven point five to some other number okay. I think that's correct which which really does not give a fair opportunity for me would we end up hitting charters against the other school districts in being able to have their fair shot sitting at that table making a proposal. Yes I think the a and we need to figure that out next year will help if we use this let this be stand alone for for the schools that have religion do another formula separate with another amount for charters only. But I don't have that today but. If this is the amount that then any additional amount that's going to be pushed off for another biennium is that correct so the charters going to have to wait for now it could be it could be re visit this website we can revisit we revisit this every year and saying it's good are we want to change something on. We do we we have a new recommendation that can go into that would bring it back up and we'll and we'll make that recommendation okay one stand that I'm just wondering. What what what is. What is the determining factor that we have to approve the fifteen million dollar amount now when we know we we've all agreed that there probably are some budget budget budget budget. They want this for the budget. This this is a factor they're going to budget time and they want to know what these numbers are. So that's always going to be able to be the argument of why we port sorry charters we can include you because we've already included the fifteen million in the budget. We we should have a nice did say that I'm not saying we can't do it mark I don't know I don't know the process today I don't know how it is and I don't know what that amount would be but I say and we can ask for that next time it next deal we just don't have that ready right now we can prepare that during the next year. Okay. Thank you. Person makes. I just got kind of follow up on the. Representative flowers concerns here and you can correct me if I'm wrong but all we're doing here is we're making a recommendation to the budget committee nothing we do here today is finalized it's to prepare us for the upcoming session this formula if it's adopt it won't be adopted until session the dollar amounts they won't be formally adopted till session so this is just a recommendation going for we won't actually so we have until. Technically until sessions over in an April to finalize our changer tweak or modify this whatever found former fashion we want this is just to lay a foundation so that the governor and the budget committee can begin their work laying out the budget for the rest of the state for the year your correct we revisit this like said it's this is what I used to set their budget this is the amount so used to set their budget with and we will revisit that and if there's any changes are subtractions before we go into the next year we will revisit this. Thank you. Senate bill it. Mr I ask for and and got from the bureau Two and a thirty pages of some issues that the folks in the school dean as unfunded mandate because I wanted to be sure I I want us to be able to think about these and determine how that might affect what we recommend in the formula. On for example I mentioned dyslexia yesterday and the and look in that heavily nurses being on our show that should be on our list and probably more counselors. And. These things are not a matter of what we would be they're not calculated in that amount that we would be voting on today. When. When would that happen That we might have an opportunity to amend this draft that's been given us I know you say in the next session coming up that the Speaker of the matrix numbers I'm talking about matrix numbers that you have to build a new matrix is that what you're talking about no amount of money to fund them for example we say to schools all the time the nurses are in the matrix but we give just you know so much money for the nurses and everything else that's in that same height line item. School districts have to make a choice and part of what we have learned in our discussion and our study discussions with the eighty eight is that there is a crying need for more nurses there is a crying need for more people for social and emotional learning but we do and when we just. Put a percentage on here that's not changing anything from meeting those new needs that we we don't put a percentage for nurses there's there's a line of two point five per five hundred of guidance counselors and nurses yes I am change it ratio no I'm not talking about change that ratio what I'm see what I'm saying is the amount of money that we have traditionally put in here time at the time and time again does not people can make choices but they're making choices between like a Sophie's choice which one of your kids do you want to be sure is fat. And so when we increase it state basically just by the cost of living we're not doing anything to address the additional cost it would take if indeed we decided that we need these other items without probably pushing away one of your kids that you want to have that too that's that's the discussion that we are not having when we just put this number on here it's. It's it's it's as if what we learned is is immaterial. So what I'm asking and what I thought I might have an opportunity to do this as to see you know make it you know make a offer an amendment offer a motion to say it's not just a two point five but an amount more than that is that something that could happen total teacher salaries I'm talking about anything in this matrix just anything in the matrix I just used bottom bottom line in this matrix is two point one and two point after retirements two point three yes what I'm so what I'm asking on the figure out is how do I help somebody understand that we are still achieve in adequacy let alone equity if last time around we chose a number based on the cost of living. This time around we're choosing a number for the same reason I'm not sentence exactly it that just keeps things even is what I'm saying. If I'm a school district and I haven't been able to hire nurses guidance counselors all the things I have in that line item. And we are told clearly and I think a lot of us know. We are doing a really. We really need more nurses we really need more counselors at our school. That's not accounted for so how do we account for school districts getting more money to make sure we are paying for those things is a question. Allied might answer to some of that question is. That how are we going to make him do it when they will do it already I have one has more money or change them from getting another one because right now you don't you can't make the choice to do all the things that you need to do you have to pick and choose because there is no school district in the state I can imagine that was say for example I would you know I could have a nurse at my school each day but I'm going to choose not to because I just don't think we need it I don't think that you know they're they're at I'm just using that as an example and the reason they don't have it is they don't have the money to pay for it and we didn't put anything more in the formula so they can't pay for well we continue to formalize this and I will say two years ago this formula was. Wait the less than this on over what the exact number was but this year it's almost a hundred million dollars for the first year and close to ninety four the second thing you you want all that together that's two hundred and ninety million dollars for a by any of or you. We will we continue to go with that right. We will be a sustainable stormy night you can keep giving money out to give money out but if you don't substantiate that somebody's got to actually try to make it work. It's it's gonna be hard thank the I'm not sure the next governor is a Lennix legislatures will be but they're gonna be tasked with a big budget problem if we don't try to do this efficiently. And once needed. And I'm not arguing that Mr chair I'm not arguing that but you we all know that. What are charges. And I. How how do we meet the charge if if what we're doing here at the fact that this is a bigger number. The fat this is a bigger number is is you know that's that's a good thing but bigger compared to what because how long was it how long do we keep the number so low that we do this number and we go all not a not a that it's so big. At. I guess I'd there's not going to be an opportunity here to make a motion to make changes as the just let's just get to the bottom line actually the reason that the sh two three to teachers is two point two five is because we pull some out of that to make this fifteen million also not even close to fifteen million that we pulled out but is still goes back to teacher salaries so that's why we tried to fluctuate a little bit of that over there we fluctuated some stuff out of a lot of things to make the fifteen million and we actually added a bunch of things back and others to make to make it work so but the teacher salaries probably would have been a little bit more than ninety or close the fifteen million we thought they were all set of not really just also it would enhance if we put more money into the enhanced side but it would actually get to the teachers. Well all this this these all these pages of these unfunded mandates. Where do we do where do we address these things and talk about them and if they are or not if we are not providing money saved for training for dyslexia whatever how are we going to ever do that how are we going to meet adequacy White House I don't you know like I said I think those line items that we don't have in here and I don't know how those fund into those those areas so we would have to look and see how those funding to. Like it's a line item if you put it in PD. The. One way to do it on you that's was it we don't have a lot of that is in the city would have to do that some point. No we we have a PD a categorical yes we do yeah categorical. So as you talk about the training for yes that's what people are saying well I mean are they doing that now though okay Mr chair just a. I yield. Okay. Absent Dotson. Thank you Mr chair I guess I've got I think it's I'm not sure if it's question fewer staff for but we put sixty million assigned two years ago those posts last four years. But this fifteen million if I read it correctly starts in FY twenty twenty two. That's one year before the sixty million actually runs out I believe that's rebelling it up for two years before okay for two years so that's what we said if they are still using that they would not get money of the formula okay so so what happens the extra fifteen million per. Per year then let still some of more used at all I guess or something that will we're going to work on that form the because I know some of them to needed more up front some of needed less up front so I someone did fit into the program for two years because they were already at that salary level so they just now are pulling into it so I'm not sure how that all works out maybe maybe AT knows what's left out of that thirty six million that's correct correct thirty million learned approximately. So that should last the next two years yes so we will be adding fifteen million a year to that pot and are we gonna state two years ahead or is it going to be all expended. I don't know exactly how much will be expended that all that fun that for you but I know we're not gonna litem double dip there's no double dipping into. And so it's gonna be set aside as a categorical just for that purpose and there may be a fund balance that's accumulating to smooth things out over the course of of years or I mean I I guess it was our salary balances yeah as far as then hand salary yes line item for putting that in as a categorical you can only be drawn off of for expenses based off of that particular line item right our yes okay and then almost hate to even open this can of worms but what are we gonna do about the on going PP expenses and once that occurs after on what Personal protective equipment things that were asking school districts to do I could entail that there's no one. Line item in your for that but I mean it it it would fall under one part of this and I'm not sure exactly how that that comes of their funding but I mean I know the cares act is been trying to do as much of that as possible but that is going to be an ongoing thing there are a lot of things we talked about that are going to be ongoing and upcoming that are not in this matrix and then we did bills quiet able to put in there right now that's what would president own. The the we don't really at this point we've got a school started were. You know month to have two months in but I'm not sure lowering the yeah we should know before long but I think that's something we'll have to come back and revisit also school safety is a big issue that we've talked about that a lot of that is played out of the estate right now so we'll have to dress up when you to visit next year and try to figure out a formula for school safety of security security schools like the. one other question I might ask as far as this formulas are going back and looking at making weeks or adjustments based off of of whatever It kind of back to that that millage question if the you know we've got the twenty five mills for the U. R. T. right I don't know what some districts may have. You know ACT five males some might have an extra ten miles or whatever but You know at. If we have this categorical there for enhanced salaries for for districts. There probably needs to be at least a little qualifier in there that. You don't qualify for this unless you are at least doing something in your millage. Locally in order to to to open it up and give you access to this enhanced so if you could look at those districts and see which ones are. You know if there. I don't know what that amount is if it's. They're at thirty miles or thirty five miles or or whatever it is made because some districts are are not going to qualify for this but they're at forty forty five knows or whatever so they're they're at a much higher millage rate they're they're kicking a lot locally and. You know using that money to enhance their salaries are ready if if all this is an effort for. I to be fair across the districts it's not fair to have some districts kicking and locally and then not Having access to this particular fund so. Look at that and I would like to work with you to try to figure out how we can make sure that that's as fair as possible. Thank you. Representative MAX. This bill quick question. I would have access to all these yes what will get a copy of the letter I don't I don't have copies made yet we'll come up we're working on that we were as some other people less. Easy but I think Richard Shelby okay we share and that will move are seen it so. All right DO are the last two people on my list you'll have a question for Richard and. I park a little go. Yes will you have one. Okay I will get to the Sir I represent Cavenaugh you're next. This is more of a procedure question again it's not free all so I just wanna make sure we vote on the matrix without on this foundation form their categorical any member can make a motion to change anything on this and then if it's voted on it can be made a motion to be part of it it's not accepted all. If I want to make a change like to make a change I don't make a motion. You know will entertain motions of so I want to change that but it's a boat of the whole to change that one item so okay thank you. Of Sir just fill right and I think the procedural question is is needed. I just wanna make sure that we are that we make sure as we're looking at things that we don't punish keys for what their parents do a new do not do under and that's that's one of the concerns because I see for instance in white Arkansas they had a forty five meals but it didn't generate any money. And we gotta stop thinking about the meals is generating all of it indicates effort by the local community. If a local community is is poor jobs Turkey they are not going to tax themselves more and it means in that their children will suffer more so I think that needs to be thought about as we look at the totality of this thing that we don't punish key is for their parents being poor I just want to say that thank you there are some areas that will never passed a millage probably because they just can't afford it there of their of their poor areas so. All right that was last the questions. Of Representative M. and you just popped in. Thank you Mr chair. Here's a couple statements has been made Over the last few hours it I wrote down they just going to continue to stand out to me. One was actually been mentioned twice that there is no perfect formula. Fixing education in the state of Arkansas there is no perfect answer today. But. It was also mention that we must continue to take steps. And if you look at this proposal this this foundation matrix as compared to the binding else past I believe that collectively. As input has been received by several of those in this room. That there have been exceptional strides made in many areas not all areas there's areas on this that I will personally would like to see much more funding be going to. Things that would affect my district and I think it's very obvious as you listen to the comments of the different ones in this room just as every school district is different. The needs as we as legislators the. For our districts are for our constituents are different. However. After months of meeting with this committee. I think we're at a point where. We have a plan here that is going to do just what someone so boldly stat said and that is that we must continue to make steps with that. Which chair I move to approve the foundation matrix in the category rules as presented. I have a motion I have a second thank. In discussion on the motion. I have a discussion on the motion. Senator Elliot. Mister chair I I won't be long about this but and and I know it's not going to change things but I feel compelled to say that out what. We just heard from of our esteemed colleague is absolutely correct it won't be it won't be perfect it won't be something that's gonna be great for everybody all the time. But my big injection. I to this is the fact that we got brand new numbers today. Brand new numbers. And we're supposed to just say okay that's it. My other concern is I don't see a thing on here that we have done besides those brand new numbers that we got that has anything to do for the most part with once what was in our study. All those days that we spent here that study is for next time not for this when you listen to it but now I I I understand but but this is that this is the time that that you know that we could begin to take some measures to like to make a statement that we are going to start moving toward something that is in that and that's what that study so whether we do or do not I know we're not going to. But I I I just have real issues with I love the fact that we've got that the you know the sixty million dollars or whatever that number was for the schools. The usual seems like we just don't do this coming here and drop numbers and say this is what it is and this is where it's coming from and we just do it I just wanna regs that Mr chair I know it's not perfect is not going to be perfect but. We always get ourselves to appoint we get down to the bottom line is time to do something and I remember once I chair this committee and was practically when when senator key left and the push as the chair of the committee or just get it done and get it done get it done when we obviously had more time we could work and that's been the pattern every time we do the studies just want to put on the table I feel better now I'm. I'm Chuck under this year not love by a lot of time because of something that is kind of helpless of doing a lot of things this year. Represent Larry. Thank you Mr chair up I I have a question that and then possibly a motion the Representative Evans motion to approve the matrix and the categorical stirs that include the enhanced fifteen million. On teacher salaries it is an categorical yes okay and. The discussion that we heard from Representative dot dots and that said that you know we approve sixty million. For two two biennials. This fifteen million. Is is on top of that that's already been approved correct. I know you said a can you talking about your twenty two. Well I I'm just done by the time line of wind we need to put in additional fifteen million to cover. When the sixty million. Ends the cliff I am not sure when that cliff actually what date that is if it's in the middle of a. Okay by any of or not well I think the fact that we don't know when it is I've I make a substitute motion to accept the represent of evinced up note motion but to remove the fifteen million enhanced. I have a second. I do not have a second your motion does. To represent Evans would you restate your motion. I'm sorry your restatement employees. Yes my motion A Mister chair was that I move to approve. Foundation matrix and categorical says presented. And we had a second on that. A ready to vote all in favor say aye hi any oppose. Motion carries both houses. Ladies and gentleman. Senator Sturch popped in popped out I don't know if you have some you get of there any other business before this committee today. We have a consulted meeting on the nineteenth I believe so all right. Seeing no other business we are adjourned. Thank you for being here today.