ALC-Occupational Licensing Review Subcommittee

Our members if you'll of everybody's left take a seat will call this meeting to order. first off I'd like to thank everybody for being here today and we're gonna move rat home I know everybody's got all the stuff via email I think it's been on the website awhile so we're gonna move right on to through item be I don't think Senator Irvin had any remarks correct. We'll go straight I don't see and that's these recommendations regarding occupational authorizations that have all already had one little vote in this committee and will what what where do and if there are no questions or comments on the Arkansas state board of physical therapies. Recommendation the Arkansas state plant board feed fertilizer divisions recommendation or the Arkansas department of health in engineering section. To the best of my knowledge there's not really any angst anywhere. With those and if I'm wrong please somebody in the committee. We now. All right seeing none of I think we're gonna. Argo recognized Representative Dotson for motion. Thank you Mr chair I'm move for further development further development of these recommendations prior to inclusion in the final report. Which which one specifically For the motion. That would be. The the last three. were taking out the top one right okay yes so for clarity it will be the the motion will be. For further development of the record these recommendations pride inclusion in the final report FOR the Arkansas state board of physical therapy state Arkansas state board plant board feeding fertilizer division in Arkansas department of health engineering section. A we have a motion and a second. I have that all those in favor say aye all opposed no our motion carries thank you for that. Which will move us to Adam. D. on our agenda. laces going for miss bill and miss Davenport if you would mind making your way to a microphone somewhere force. Yes Sir. Thank you Mr so what happens with the first one on that item see exhibit see what we're gonna pass over that until next month like there's some some question and. So we're not gonna have discussion on it today no Sir okay thank. Alright ladies of you know the procedure if you don't mind just give us your name and position for the record and then please proceed. Just give over the bureau of legislative research. Good afternoon Michelle Devin for with the bureau of legislative research. For clarification national to make sure that everyone knows that we have been asked by the committee to talk about these legislation these pieces of legislation that are in the packet. And however the bureau of legislative research is the general assembly's nonpartisan impartial staff services agency and therefore nothing that we say should be interpreted as advocating either for or against any of these pieces of legislation. The first one in your packet is JMB four seven three. This was based on a recommendation from Representative Womack. Back in December twenty nineteen. It was approved in January thirteenth our our January thirteen twenty twenty. And it was to make the licensure for acupuncturist optional. And it will have any questions I can eight I can. Clarify. Any question or comment from committee. Senator Ingram you're recognized. Could we maybe get some of context as to why that this would be something that we would not require licensing for in that it deals with of public health. Well senator Ingram that is the policy side of it all this legislation did was to. I understand I wouldn't recommend I'm sorry I was I have attended a one directed you I guess I was directed at the committee as to why we would consider of the doing something that could adversely affect the public health. Senator Ingram since our in our presented that originally I'll be glad to answer question of course I don't remember all the details but the the biggest driver and that was what was in the numbers that acupuncturists reported to us in committee there were it was literally like hundreds of thousands of a percent of people that have been affected. Adversely in that industry. And so my thinking was when when you're talking about something that's. That is affecting hundreds of thousands of a percent of people in the country is it really something we're government should be intervening. Well if it's negatively affecting them I would think would want to do the opposite of that I think we would want to look into it instead a would you want to have strict requirements if it's negatively affecting of the public of it in I mean I I don't follow that. A I thank the deal was we we really couldn't find any cases in order to work a couple decades to find where somebody had been. Okay a minute maybe I misunderstood what you said because of you I thought you said there's hundreds of thousands of cases no one that have done fender it's of allowing of a percent yes that hit that hat and a over the impacts yes Sir got that that was that was the driver and listen this is gonna go back before a bill so you were that the team can be brought forth again I'm sorry I don't remember it today but but that was that was the driver of this piece of legislation got thank you. Absent Peyton you're recognized thank you Mr chair so in section one of. Where we we re we retain the requirement then acupuncturist shall not practice without the training. If they're not licensed how does that how what other sections of code will assign who police is that what this is this that what what what that does is it previously said no person therefore this clarifies the it's actually puncture asst house of all that it. And. Double check. This would just apply to the accu punctures that are licensed if you weren't licensed it wouldn't apply to you so if you're not licensed then it will not require them to have the training. That is my interpretation but if the committee would like to make that clear we can do that. Okay. Why don't I just don't interpreted the way you do I was curious as to who would police that if they're not licensed but if they're not license they will this would make it optional so they wouldn't be licensed so that are not licensed they're not acupuncturists is that how you interpret it. That was my understanding but if you would like to make that clear we can do that okay. Thank you all consider that. Represent Cozart you're recognized thank you Mr chair I just have a quick question a couple of them if you don't mind but how many ACT apart punchers to wean have you you might remember that. I mean. What is that thirty okay so and then back to his question again I wanna make sure I'm clear so item see in this bill would get be no one board if that we if we make it optional that correct so they would not have to have an activation they would not have to pass a nationally recognized clean only if they decided to be a licensed acupuncturist and if you guys wanna make that clear to specifically say license actually punctures I can do that okay all right thank you Mr. Senator Chesterfield you're recognized Senate thank you Mr chair looking on page two with section for this chapter does not prohibit or require a license with respect to the practice of medicine surgery chiropractic osteopathy dentistry extent or any branch of the healing arts as defined by the laws of this state and does not limit restrict in larger alter the privileges and practices of any of these professions are branches of the healing arts you explain that to me. At. That does not prohibit well what that require a licensed for counter practice surgery medicine it were it that means that those professions do not have to also receive a acupuncturists license okay they would they would still have to pay it be board certified as positions but if they want to practice acupuncture. They don't have to have an action acupuncture license yes ma'am. So people who are poking around you would needles. Which is what I perceive acupuncture to be all we lessening the requirements on them or enhancing the requirements on the well this bill would make their licensure optional. So they would not have to get a license unless they wanted a license any they didn't normalizes they go around picking on your skin and puncturing you anywhere without a license they would not have to receive a license thank you. Represent Murdock you're recognized. thank you chair trying to get a hold to this as well so this legislation would make it optional for a license or no is that correct. It would make it optional to receive an acupuncturist license this right this would come ACT personalized acupuncturists licensor so what consumer if you will protection. Do we have this is to the chair thank who was the art there to help me with this so what consumer protection if you will do we have if the option is chose not to be licensed so therefore there is no assurance to the general public that the person before me this. service he is duly certified how do we ensure that FOR public represent will by maintaining the licenses in place so the person that's choosing to get the service. Can choose whether to use a licensed acupuncturist or not that's why we didn't just do away with it we want that option to be there for those that want so I guess my question and I apologize for my lateness why do we why don't we give an option. For someone to to someone that's not licensed what's the purpose of that. So people can enjoy their liberty and freedom. To make choices about their body. Okay up last question you. If I didn't want this to go forward if I don't want to committee to hear this how what I what I say what I have got a one motion that would allow us to work with staff to further refine it that may be the best route to go. sentences handed out okay but what would you do you mind holding off on that so we can get there's more questions absolutely I believe yeah yeah yes Sir thank you thank you. Senator garner you're recognized. The Mister my so if I understand that multiple other states don't require a licensed rock or for this type procedures that correct. Thank you leave that to be correct but when I thought there was fifth twenty four removed from these details on I think I'd pass before if there is any kind of notice for cases of actual public health issues out of those states is for like upon from staff and research there's been no major medical concerns from those states where this does not exist I believe I'm saying that correctly and so I think what we're doing with this is allowing a person if they want to to get a license to be a acupuncture and it's my can go to them if they want to go to the license person but if they do not the overly safe procedures on these other states could be allowable at a different rate for the consumer and for the people in purposes there's no real public safety risk as we can find from the evidence this seems like a consumer slash free market slash can person based approach to loosen restrictions the state of Arkansas that actor description Mr chairman thing it's a great description thank you Sir. Represent Payton you're recognized in thank you Mr chair so back to section one. graphs the. I thank the interpretation of that would depend on the definition of acupuncturists do we have that section a code or can you refer to it as to how it defines acupuncturist. And that would be section code seventeen wanted to wanted to number two an acupuncturist means a person licensed under this chapter to practice acupuncture and related techniques in this state and includes the term licensed action acupuncturist certified acupuncturist acupuncture practitioner an oriental acupuncture practitioner thank you that answers my question. Senator Ingram you're recognized. Mallard AS. Of. I know that the. Choice and the pursuit as you said the pursuit of freedom of people to make a decision serve on a women wish that they were allowed that option but of. But the a I've got a motion at the proper time Mr. Thank you of Representative Smith. You're recognized thank you Mr chair up just for what it's worth I after having lived in East Asia for nearly twenty years I received acupuncture. Quite often forty two needles in the front side of my body from the tips of my toes to the top of my head and after so many minutes flipped over and got the same number in the backside And and house I sit here the man I am today because. But not. You know. In some of these these are acupuncturists little offices in things I couldn't of red whether they were licensed or not but there was never any adverse reaction or problem that that I received but I will tell you. To date and those those acupuncturists used a little. Ten. Basically Little little box and they would take those needles and put him back in their pin cushion and they would you know deployment alcohol but I never got an infection today acupuncturists use a disposable needles and they're so micro thin that you don't even know when they're placed on your skin and then there font you know down into the tissue of your body but I really like the idea of keeping it like it is with no requirement for a licensing of these people do go through specific training in order to be able to do what they do and it's kind of like getting a good hair cut or a bad hair cut it takes two weeks you know to get over it but I think I think I like the bill and I would encourage us to leave it like it is and not add more requirements and so I'm I'm just kind of siding here with the the chair on on his presentation. All represented rye you're recognized. Thank you thank you Mr chair you know of. Mister chair it looks like in the beginning when this bill was was first put out there it it used to say. No person shall be allowed to practice occupy occupied after and related techniques without first having passed a nationally recognized clean natal technique cores but this one this bill has been rate re work and it says now an acupuncturist John I guess you have to be an actor pointers to actually practices but it is there's no acupuncture shall not practice. Acupuncture and related techniques without first having passed a nationally recognized clean needle technique or so. May sound like to me it's it's it's a little different than what it was under that portion basically represent rile just from the real. Real brief the that that is if you hold yourself out to be a licensed acupuncturist doing business that way then you would be required. To the to the. That makes sense. Okay Senator Irvin. Thank you just FOR recollection for folks so we've visited this November twelfth twenty nineteen and the subcommittee am at that present time there were thirty seven individuals who are regulated and if you look in your binders you can look at that information behind the blue tab which is eleven twelve nineteen am so you can look at the scope of practice of the acupuncturist and the practice of acupuncture and so in my you know my big concern about the way this is written is. I think it's important that you have recognition or somebody is tracking whether people have passed a nationally recognized clean needle technique course clean needles are really important and with all due respect Representative and Smith over there I I hear you but you know when I was traveling when I was in the Twin my twenties on the coast on the African continent this was at the time long time ago in HIV was very rampant and I was told by my father his physician and others do not get an injection if you get sick do not get an injection because the needles are going to be dirty and I realized we've come a long way since then but what I'm saying is you know United States of America has a very different standards than a lot of these other countries and at that time my friend got sick I had to call my father who had to call the CDC to get a list of what we could actually take for my friend or not many of the medications on the list had been Bands in the United States of America because of horrible side effects for years and years and years but they were still on their list so we do things differently and I think I think you know like I said with all due respect we do things differently we we try to follow some. Click health measures and clean needles it's just very very important to me no matter how they're being utilized and also how they're being disposed of that's very very problematic and so you know I think that's probably part of what this technique course is is and I'm I thought I but I'm not sure if they require autoclaves and sterilization and if that's done on site and how they're collected and how they're disposed and all that against apartment health would need to. See that the I'm not sure how we would track who has passed this and who has not without the component of a license and so that's where I get I understand my chair cochair understand your per perspective and and I I don't necessarily know if it's a health risk saying you know if we we find that there's not a lot of adverse. And problems from it but there's things that we also don't know us because we're not tracking that data so I think you know in working with the tattoo artists which I have done they were very very passionate about their license because they wanted to make their profession more professional and the spread of hepatitis A Pratt spread of staph infection was was rampant so they actually wanted tighter control of of their license so again I'm not sure how you track and make section one and section to live together. For our purposes so I would just. I would not vote for this legislation as it's written at this time because of that. Thank you. Represent Burch did you have a question. Under the second place. Resident Smith did you have another question. No okay all right I don't have any morning Q. looks like anymore. Questions or comments. US seeing none I think kill. Senator Irvin I mean I'm sorry Ingram you're recognized for your motion. Thirty there we go thank you. I move that the draft legislation concerning the recommendation to not be included in the final packet for consideration. All right thank you Sir of we have a second home. We have a second all those in favor say aye all right all opposed no. Looks like the seven. Next item of business. three this miss bill we we've been external seven four seventy taken to bills are you're you're recognized thank you the next bill that you'll find in your packet is M. L. D. two three four and this piece of legislation is in response to a recommendation made by Representative Womack regarding the repeal of the occupational authorization to license sprinkler fitters. This legislation is found with in the entire duties of the Arkansas fire protection licensing board. This legislation is a little bit less straight forward in that sprinkler fitter is only referenced once maybe twice in the legislation it is not separated out from the duties of other parts of the licensure of the fire and licensing board so for instance it's grouped with some of the business components and the business license is remaining only the license for the sprinkler fitters the individual he would be doing the work installing or inspecting the systems has been remit so I wanted to point that out to the committee because that does affect some of the language that was used and that can be changed at the will of the committee if there's something that is not reading quite the way you would like we can change that at that I wanted to point out that if you look at page two section two you'll see an example. Where we've had to remove the. Component regarding conducting examinations to install or service fix fire protection systems that install insulation or service was tied directly to the licensure of that individual not to the licensure of the business that was insuring all of it was done properly so I just wanted to point that out that that's consistent through the entire bill you'll see language removing at the installation and servicing of those fire protection systems as that was tied directly to that individual licensed not the license of the overall entity that was the committee's recommendation was to preserve. Thank you for that represent Cozart you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair slick may be clear member I remember when the gentleman quite a few of them came to talk to a set day and most of the big companies are the ones that are responsible and carry a license correct me if I'm wrong but and these were just the people that install that we're talking about the the sprinkler lines and they cannot do that without having the other person overseeing them so that's still going to be in place they just will not have to be licensed they will have to be certified probly but not license is a am I correct. The correct is that the business does still have to maintain a license each individual employee no longer has to be licensed however there's not a certification process included at this time okay so that employee cannot go out and work on his own of what we call I guess shade tree under moonlighting without being under the tech company I'm real is that correct that's the way the legislation is currently draft that's what I understand thank you. By senator Chesterfield you're recognized. Here. We ordinarily File bills in response to a problem. Or a concern what is the problem with the way this currently works. To Mr chairman my answer would just be read Tate there's already a licensed entity that's responsible. In this case so. They're just a bunch of people it cost them time and money to maintain a license that they don't use anyway. So the responsible entities licensed stays in place and has to be on the job but these individuals who are more less subcontractors is that how you would call whether they're just employees yes ma'am they're not even subcontractor even though they're in right now as employees they must maintain a license is that right yes ma'am. But if they're working under someone only the person and to whom they are working would have to have the life correct. Similarly most most construction. Trades work now okay I guess I'm concerned because when we start talking about fire. And licensing and sprinkler systems. We are all very vulnerable two. Incidents that happened with that are that are beyond our control so I I guess I'm concerned about it that were put in place in the first place why are we reducing that. Because our homes. I depended upon having the sprinkler systems installed properly. And. If they are not install properly by the individual. Who may or may not be working on to somebody else what recourse do I have after my home is burned to the ground. I think that would be an insurance issue the answer your last question. These are not residential systems anyway what is a mate if if it's a business in your business is burned to the ground it may be an insurance issue but if the insurance company finds that the individual who installed it is on licensed does that not give business a greater opportunity not to have their their premium paid for that no ma'am because you you have to be licensed to put the system in. But then what does this do it removes a license for the individuals that work for the guy that has a license we we essentially have double licensing in this case. Senator garner you're recognized thank you chairman so I think the question asked by Senator chest feels important and why we. Would you push a button again please. Thank you ever go back to my point so I think what Lynch senator Chesterfield said was what is the problem we're trying to dress this legislation I think the crucial crucial issue is as we learn from the occupational licensing task force that was on and I was learning this committee is Arkansas one the most your rainy is in terrible state when it comes occupational license in the red tape and regulation we have is what three extensive review by this committee we put together very low public health risks recommendations through this legislation that either other states do not have this requirement or is a double system in this case so I think in this case were dressing is number one that over or arching issue of Arkansas be one the worst states and secondarily you have a license person who's above it will be doing the liability with the license in the contracting but they can hire people to get to work form at a douche reduce right without going through with this extra step of the red tape of a license this allows business is actually get out there in performing the community to provide this service while still having to protections of a license at the higher level to me it seems like a win win situation as one to clarify that thank you Mr. Thank you senator of Representative garner did you have a question okay I'm sorry I I need to apologize to you that pole and this computer ate my lunch today so how you're recognized now a quick question I I agree with that red tape I understand that they do a licensure AS but does it does it affect the the individual licensee in any way can it will it keep them from going out to do something different or working from a different company or some you construction guys I'm looking at you at. Okay so it it there's no adverse effect on the employee for not having a license he could still or she could go out to. So they're not doing anything except working for companies that have licenses. Thank you. All right of no more questions in the queue is there any comment or questions from committee. All right seeing none I'd like to make a motion that the draft legislation. Concerning the recommendation for the sprinkler fitters be included in the final packet for consideration for this committee we have a second all those in favor say aye all opposed no exact eyes seven thank you. and looks like our last. Discussion today will be an act to amend the Arkansas motor vehicle commission act. That's correct it the last piece of legislation in your packet it is MLB two three nine this legislation was recommended by Representative Dotson. And this particular and this was in February of twenty twenty so in your big binders if you need to refer for back to any of that information that's where the discussion recommendation was made and this particular piece of legislation the original recommendation with slightly broader than as we work with Representative Dotson it was near to cover motor vehicle sales persons and new recreational vehicle sales persons and the existing licenses for the Adam metaphysical dealer lessor manufacturer importer distributor factory branch or division distributor branch of division factory Representative distributor Representative second stage manufacturer. And converter are all still in place this simply removes the requirement that a car a car sales person has to have an individual licensed ball the dealership that they're working for is also licensed and this legislation Paul it's actually relatively thick is reference appeared multiple times and it's saying languages used for dealing with recreational vehicles as is used for car sales person so the same error removal has occurred in both of those places. Thank you are there any questions. Our Representative Payton you're recognized I have a motion at the proper time. I have a question comment from committee members it's. Senator Johnson you're recognized thank you Mr chair and I appreciate you allowing me to participate in the discussion of I sit in on the meeting where we had to the motor vehicle commission Mike presentation about things and and I'll I'll S. disposal both of staff in the chair and maybe even represented paid. What I heard and I can stand be corrected if this is not true but I heard that there's no. Application there's no test there's no anything it's literally a fee paid by the dealer for someone to go to work selling cars that's that's what I picked up and then I heard that this money went into a fund that. The. Motor vehicle commission made the commission itself would make grants to different entities and I'm for example would be A. R. community college that has a some kind of auto repair training program in that they could make a grant to to them to buy a piece of equipment that to train the students on their that ultimately would could go to work at the dealership I'm. I'm not against helping the. Vocational education system I'm not against anything but is it really regular regulatory when we're just basically charging at a tax or fee to a a car dealer for bringing a new person to work in a sales position is not like a real estate sales were you actually have to learn about real state law take a test and pass it D. am I understanding that correctly Mr chairman or any staff or anyone else you could clarify that for me the person paying do you mind just like Senator Johnson it was strictly a revenue stream. There's no there's no test and you can hire salesmen put them to work get the license. Thirty days sixty days later and they could be gone before you ever get the license and it's just a matter standing in the twenty five dollars and and you get their name on the list but I think it's your polled once a year when you renew your dealership license and so basically it's a once a year however many sales when you have on staff times twenty five dollars. But I'm I understand correctly let's. Since you've been in the business you know the situation do you and I don't know how many it takes to run a business let's say you have twenty five sales. And you hire a twenty six one then you need to do it but if you have another one leave your paying it by that individual not by the numbers you have working at any one time correct so if you have a lot of turnover in your your sales force you're going to pay more than someone with the exact same number of salesmen that doesn't have that turn turn over is that correct that's correct okay well this is a. This is an unusual thing and my I think my biggest problem is that that I don't know that this commission should be in the business of handing out grants maybe the education department or or somebody that is more related to that should be involved in giving out money but the sound like we've got a little close shop here where they they collect the fee and turn around and and give it out and they might be doing a great job where their place in the grant but systemically it just doesn't sound quite right but it thank you for allowing me this question Mister chairman and thank. I'm sorry center okay. Are there any other further questions comments. Our I would certainly entertain a motion if anybody has one or more in other. Representation you're recognized thank you Mr chair I move that the draft legislation concerning the automobile sales will be included in the final packet for consideration thank you Sir and I have a second I have a second all those in favor say aye all opposed no all right that one passes thank you is there any other new business in these come before this committee. I'm not seeing none will consider this meeting adjourned thank you.