Education Committee Senate & House

Yes there's no our whole team is here somewhere we're ready whenever you are. Thank you. The time to start. If we could get everybody in their seats will get the same correct up. Like call this meeting to order. Opening remarks ma'am you got any okay I know last last meeting I told the ones that are sitting in the seats with us and you're welcome to set their that are not members of this group are not not I will say no member's this group you're not members of this committee so you can't vote on on anything we do in adequacy with this committee but you're welcome to set here I'm I'm I don't want to run you all I just would really prefer ask that you don't ask questions and prolong everything with with some things because we really are running short on getting the same finished so well but you are welcome to set with this and take in everything you can write notes because you never know next session you might be doing this so. So who be prepared so thank you all for being here today each and everyone we've got a pretty good crowd and we will have need approval of the minutes from August the tenth August eleventh two I have a motion that motion second. An ocean second all in favor say aye. All the all the disapprove say no. I didn't get one all right motion carries all right we'll start out with the less is anybody have anything to say before we get started with our presentation and gaining will bring up. I give you that chance no okay we're going to get started with the discussion of after the study exhibit the with Mr Justin silver Steen. And what are we already I guess a we own ready. Okay just to get yours. We can't. Are you all ready to play the videos we sent over again on the this time we're ready for Adam D. which is we're we're up to you so whatever you're ready to do whatever you want to do. I guess the. Last minute room so we sent the U. two videos you got to play it but I'm happy to do that let me just pull them up real quick. Okay we have we have the video the. We do have a few guys complain that be great but otherwise we're happy to okay. We're ready what we're going to play the video yes. Good afternoon. If you manage a team you have to come as a platform to track everything is. And and welcome and I'm Ken Robinson and I want to talk to you. Good afternoon this is Justin Silverstein with a PH we are happy to be back with you today I'm gonna take us or a very quick study updates and then turn it over to our partners from west and to walk us through a number of presentations again we're gonna go through a couple key things with the study and then west that is gonna be presenting on the identification of achievement gaps so taking a look at what's student characteristics are linked to a lower student performance of the impact of concentration the property on student performance of a link between funding and performance so are there any relationships and and that area and then finally what do class size or available workforce how does that impact student performance so again really digging into a large scale data analysis that we've undertaken as a study team walking through all of these different pieces as they relate really just to per student performance on statewide testing. The quick study update we have a lot of the stakeholder engagement happening really right now we're in the coming days first and we talked a little bit about this last meeting but just a reminder made a stakeholder survey going out across the state we want anyone to take this educators and and other members we hosted this publicly asked starting last week it's gonna be open through the eighteenth I we have sent this out been to all the membership or associations and superintendents to put it out there we are working on broader distribution to other networks including newspapers and working with department heads identify some of that distribution and right here is the survey link so that anyone can take it so just reiterating educators business leaders parents you know we really want folks to take a look at that we have differentiated this survey in a way that we think it's really a palatable and and and doable for different constituents looking at a little different set of questions but in all the same areas and then we have the educator panels which are actually beginning tomorrow we work with the membership organizations and superintendents from across the state to identify district ministry school administrators CFO's and teachers to be part of over twenty panels we are gonna do these remotely we have a lot of sign ups already and what we're doing is ensuring that the special the teacher and school level meetings are happening after school time we know folks are are really focused on that Working in the schools and we want to make sure they have the ability to to join us after school is out we had nominees again from these different groups and those are the folks who are invited to the Senate two week window of meetings. So at the next meeting with got a couple more things we will cover we're gonna take a look at what the best use of poverty funds are professional bail made an extra duty time the capital needs of districts and we're gonna come back to some areas that we've already covered up but bring backs the results from the district survey that we put out earlier this year which will be analyzed at this point. That's gonna include looking at the school size policies and any public input on school size is a student mental health and then those education opportunities that we talked about before so eight PM ABC T. E. the start of course work so we're gonna bring back to kind of J. another died into those topics the next meeting which is actually coming up later this month. And with that I will take any questions. All right hold on we have a question who's in six sixty six okay. Reserve all you're recognized thank you Mr chair of your twenty a district administrator school administrators how did you choose those are there some from rule Arkansas some from charter still full sun from big school some from small schools how did you choose and can you kind of tell me where they're from. Yes Sir we again took nominations from all the membership organizations including the rules schools that that that administrators and and different groups we then have actually put out its by region okay and then within each region there are two opportunities and so what we've done at this point is I think everybody who wanted to sign up has been able to do that and then we'll be able to look at representation through through that lands but again it was there. On the asked we asked after representation from across the state and also from the rural school cents each okay thank you. Representative Lowery. The thank you Mr chairman I I just want to get clarification on of the presentations are gonna be made it says in your overview that. Best uses of poverty funds is gonna be next presentation is this the next presentation or is it another next. They don't have to hide from me. Pfizer today's it's too will all be at the data analysis and those relationships will then be bringing together all the information on the best use of those funds on public funds at that I think it's the leader September meeting. Okay and will there be an overview of that are or at a touching on that in the presentation today on performance and funding or is that the best uses of poverty funding going to going to be a totally separate presentation. Yes separate presentation. Okay alright thank you. Senator Elliott. Thank you Mr chair I have to I I just I don't remember whether or not students are part of a targeted group for the survey so would you just remind me one way or the other and how you going about getting students if they all are. Center students are not part of that targeted. For the survey it is an open survey so that would be. The building for anyone in the state to take the survey I'm gonna ask me and I do not believe we have a selection for students as part of the selection on who is taking Sir. We do you as just mentioned it if the service is open for anyone to take it people identify who they are if they're an educator apparently number or a student you're not specifically targeting students though as a group knowing that their particular research protections around the involvement students but if the the take the survey will have that information for students but we did not specifically target them want educate educate most. Okay well as as a follow up to that would it be proper to I want to encourage. schools at the local level to make a point to include students from a research standpoint and you know everything that we have to be careful about would that be an okay thing to do or where there be some precautions that they would need to make if they were to do that. So and I'm an available at manta saying here I think as a research team yeah there are a number of hurdles you would usually go three got through I research by every board if you're gonna include students and so I don't think we would want to do that just because of some of that the best practices around research with when you to students that you get a student age again I don't think there's a anything would preclude districts for making sure that it was known and widely available but it's really kind of a fine line of the balance of on the research side asking you know specifically for students to take it okay exam had checks on our end from right and Patrick in a mental all of us had to go through the I RB process in the past as we are yes Sir I'm not the Senate because the tech but that all your tuition yeah it's rigorous good reason I appreciate that I just wanted to be sure if you know of be made it just said to sort of the school the survey is out there you know. Whatever okay thank you Mr chair. All right just in your back up. Okay then if the folks on your side there our next presentation is the identification of gaps we can turn that one on. Hello my name is right through to modeling agent here nine a research associate with it in educational nonprofit agency that conducts research and provides technical assistance designed to one to four schools districts in state education agencies to increase educational equity for all students In this presentation. What's more nasties identify areas for Stevens within the state of Arkansas. Specifically what minor examination proficiency engrossed caption Arkansas by research income other steam characteristics. We also examine whether it she. Very by sending while. Again. The road after today's presentation includes hello ladies were key findings. Information on the city teens methodology. In a brief review khimetrics. Please also feel free records the one pager that companies is transportation for additional context. This analysis city teen was principally concerned this for any cheating yes within the state of Arkansas I student demographic categories. We'll leave keep finding city aware of that I will take place after doing this work. Q. outline the main residence is given our results. Next where if you are in the obligee. At that point provide a concise overview of the data we use conducted houses and distance local which is for methods that we use to address the research questions. Lastly will conclude with an overview of the analysis. During this section the presentation one packs in the key findings providing you with the results from the different analyses. Okay by opening the floor to the committee to ask questions. Start with the main findings of the analysis. One. Welcome students the students students with disabilities. All have or proficiency rates than their peers. Senate differently I am the distinguished populations also should the largest yes. We see is the training that is not specific to Arkansas here. The other states students consider at risk or disadvantaged. And language arts or E. LA at the same rate as their peers. Point two. Man LA growth rates decrease a school Sir larger high needs student populations. For the most part growth AT didn't growth that is decreases a school Sir or refuse any more low income limited English proficient in the P. in students again. We analyzed data from the twenty fifteen sixteen year to twenty eighteen nineteen academic year. To get a sense of how growth correlates with student and graphics. We've got that on the whole the school's larger high needs to populations there are exceptions. Three in twenty eighteen hardy student when it higher rates well students are funded within seven hundred and ninety dollars each other with different demographic categories. Low income LED special education in under represented minority students and schools that are funding hyper people rates on average. Appears. Also known here if this is the feature the Arkansas education funding system which is providing hearty students with national funding. However. Is an assistance not approach issues twenty fifteen city or funding act this. Day in methodology. Now will quickly review the data we were provided we collected to public being use to address research questions. Also quickly outline our statistical methodology for the exploratory which. In terms of our data sources. We used to conduct the NAS this came from four sources. Number one the Arkansas department of education. The distance Easton demographic in school expenditure data. Also part of the eighty eight a repository was that AT my school in a website. Which is in your past Clerk or publicly accessible ET. We also collect the data from the national center for education statistics. Which is house US department of education. And lastly the office education policy at the university of Arkansas. Thank you. We work with date at the stand can the twenty fifteen sixteen economic year to twenty eighteen nineteen year. This says the teen utilize the most recent data available at the time which the student reckoned it was twenty eight nineteen after school expenditure data was twenty eight. In terms of our methodology we employed a number of exploratory analyses. The TV license approach teams in Arkansas okay this. This consider consisting of one district now since we summarized in or describe the dated to find patterns for all students house joint differences between student groups. The team also executed a corporation announced as Justin had she may change the step was student demographic changes. The correlation coefficients to characterize direction in making these correlations. For more information the methodology that we can use our committee in this process please see the appendix for additional amounts these charts based. No license is still in the context. Our to our key findings. And any other questions seeing Arkansas in twenty nineteen. Just a note Arkansas students in grades third through tenth grade take the ACT aspire standardized assessments in man and also English language arts. In both areas less than half Arkansas students will were issued or standards. SO forty students proficient or worker Beijing LA if forty six twenty six one proficient in math. In particular the team kinda local students had more proficiency reasonable income peers. This bill is not surprising I'm the it's concerning you can write the cheaters. Of students in Arkansas are considered economically disadvantaged for low income. The state also going to proficiency differ depending on the student's racial ethnic background. We also stand was a student of color issue at a lower rate stands computer engineer white. Or. Asian counterparts. Lastly. Already seeing populations students of color. English for Christian or at least the students. Education students all have lower than average de LA in mathematician see rates. The difference. Crystallized significance or cheating the state's most disadvantaged populations. We have all personal bar graph the displeased this issue raised by a receiving characteristics. The statewide average reading yelling was forty three point seven percent in twenty nineteen Henderson manifestly she's going six percent as discussed in the previous slide. For context. Twenty sixteen and twenty nineteen yelling proficiency decrease by six percent going down from forty six point six percent to forty three point seven percent however many days you see increases in this state by ten percent over the same period. Going from forty two point three percent. Two forty six point six percent. So it's Arkansas students some gains in math. Procedure students proficient in the LA increase between twenty sixteen and twenty nineteen. From the graph. This is the largest man yeah like X. is the white average with twelve twenty two percent students being depression rat in seven point two percent petition you lay respectively. Graphic illustration A. Gatchalian kilo consumes as well this cat is not as pronounced. Additionally. Twenty two point six percent of students. At thirteen point eight worker Christian in E. L. okay. Hello students as a whole proficiency rates were higher with three point two percent petition mass in thirty four point six proficiency in the LA. Here again we see interpretation campus except by race and ethnicity. The only to racial ethnic groups are proficient and rate higher than the state average you know right in mass a white students Asian students. Right to proficient at a rate of fifty five point nine question in that it could be two point eight percent in any other way. Correspondingly Asian students at the high sufficiency rates with seventy two point five percent in math in sixty seven point four percent the commission the LA. This is the rates for students of color way bills their peers. Purposes the calendars twenty six point four percent were completion man in roughly twenty percent or petition you know like. Americans three six point five percent were Christian man. In forty four point four percent of fishing LA. It is American students different from about this state every state yeah right. First standing students forty one point eight percent were proficient in mass in thirty seven point the person or proficient yelling. And lastly for black students within the state Arkansas into greets. Twenty four point six percent. At twenty two point six percent order she yeah like respectively. Thank you Justin scene according. Speaker I race ethnicity in the students of color all white aging counterparts. Now. This is the. Student growth. Gross measures to the situation at the described the Congress the students with me we're getting cured cannot. The team state Negro understand how group change depending on students Sir within a school. We found that one man any LA growth measures decrease. Her right arm Stephen Sir increased. School little growth measures are negatively correlated with the person. You are in. underrepresented minority students service. Also Arkansas grows images cruelly assisting demographics and proficiency. In contrast with proficiency growth is less emissions school graphics in more measure of student progress. Correlation coefficients for school growth rates as well as for your age the tables Christ three things. One growth intercession few are negatively correlated with procedures and students cirque. It's cool to serve larger percentages of Heidi students both gross inefficiency rage decrease. This is not a positive trend but it does comply with previous findings showing the students do not academically perform as well as they're not disadvantaged students counterparts. To. Student demographics. This means a lot growth does decrease as a person's findings tunes within school increases we will consider the correlation will mean array should not seem to be very large given the results of our correlational analyses. Three. Because the student demographics last thing and does she. Estate. Raise more questions to demographics the growth rates. The table is a case in point. Well gross interagency decreases the high needs to population increases this is more pronounced Christian she rates proficiency having moderate to high correlations with student demographics and something instances. Now we. people findings theories from the analysis is eighteen down that Kerr people finding in Arkansas streets differences in per pupil funding I stand in a wreck. Welcome students on average resigned schools to spend about four point nine percent more improve people expenditures compared to non local students. LED one. She students resigned schools is being roughly ten percent more per people compared to all other state. Six students for students with disabilities. Rules that spent roughly one percent more. In some. triple spending range from nine thousand eight hundred seventeen dollars to ten thousand six hundred ninety five dollars people beginning on the racial ethnic group of the student. Different people standing between groups forestry significant though no good standing with a percentage points higher than other. The S. stating you found that different student groups are finding a different rates within the state of Arkansas well the difference is if funding were not always substantially more. Local bar graph in the streets to point me in a previous life. By analyzing the distribution of schools in disadvantaged students attending it and people expenditures schools. We were able to generate rough calculations of how much is spent your people by students take. For people funding amounts by every student characteristics. Your people rate of schools for students with disabilities ten it we see on average they received approximately ten thousand two hundred forty dollars people. Similarly low income students are fund and constant rate two thousand three hundred and twenty four dollars in two thousand three hundred fifty three dollars respectively. What we see is a body amount Speaker people does effective after the differences are not always large in some instances particularly thank you Ellie P. students in low income students. We'll tweet groups. Again the chart for the vertical bar chart is not distribution per pupil funding levels they show the funding differences between students of different racial or ethnic backgrounds the results demonstrate them on there are differences expansion rounds now the difference is group's not more than a hundred dollars each additional spending per year. This translates to roughly percent difference in her people standing. Charles also dated other demographic change within the state. SO last interest see more per pupil funding in Kerr people finding any other racial ethnic group. Following last students are stay students in Pacific islanders. It's not that the change we see in this chart or influenced by the thank the bill's Christian groups at disproportionately high proportions of low income students. Text of all black students in Arkansas three eighty seven percent are low income. All Hispanic students in Arkansas right the eighty five percent of low income you have offices understanding Arkansas roughly eighty percent are low income. With that we now are presentation on Gators Arkansas. For additional information I can't please see the appendix size for a one pager. Thank you again we appreciate your time. All right reserved questions represent Lowery. Thank you Mr chair I soon the presenter is is live ready for questions. Secretary was not a video presentation right okay of my question yeah and I know that you looked at a number of different factors related to the education gap and as it's already been discussed the next meeting will actually look at the best way to use poverty funds but there are number of such lot sociological studies that were for two as a consul relationship the gap based on family stability or lack of family stability in terms of whether there are two parents whether they're married or unmarried whether the child is being raised by a guardian or just one parent it is that anything that you had data that you could look at for the state of Arkansas. Yes this actually information that we did not look at in this particular instance we concentrating on in school factors interaction of things that might have an effect on a student's performance eight growth proficiency and we can speak a bit more about that in the next presentation but just to answer question we did not look at some of those outside school factors lack of unity parent householder appearance educational attainment. Right to the data that we had in a database. No also yeah we did not have access to that to the the request that we submitted to eighty okay with the two thousand eight study that that I've looked at use census bureau data so the question I guess the main reason I'm asking these questions because the all of the studies seem to reference almost a two to one gap. When you look at a two parent household whether they're married or unmarried versus a one parent household and yet you know I'm looking at the gaps that you show us on your charts there's nothing there that seems to approach the same two to one gap so I'm I'm just curious why we're not looking at that particular aspect because there are ways to to help I think fund that to to incentivize both parents being more active in the child's life. No I will say that I agree with your snaps is that there are certainly other factors that contribute to education caps which is enters a particular gas is just to be clear focus on the in school actually things or within the control of educators it kind of like that the educational funding and teachers administrators that system so that's that's particularly why we didn't include those states for this I have to say that those outside a question thank you just don't have sway or they don't have an effect on gas. Mister chairman I just have one last follow up on this thank you I at the point that we address with education funds a lot of other areas of inadequacy okay that may not be directly related to education for instance food food security making sure that students are able to have a good breakfast a good lunch why is it beyond the scope for us to actually consider that education funds could also be used to stabilize the family situation for a child. I wish I would have for you know that question to the committee in terms of your preview in terms of offering at ninety to support like record of services but what I would say is in speaking about some of these external factors this is more a synopsis or investigation of the gas unnecessarily what were the things that make these gas but these with the manifestations SMBs thank you your car's speaking of so it's a county situation working simply because the school this for me and a lower per people ready this is kind of a fallout where the downstream effect as opposed to what we're something about the motivator joy that independent variables that my costumes so to be clear I think that you're right I think that a lot of states are doing things that that Roche outside the scope of necessarily that the school unit like even down to gaze we talk about how to one but just in terms of this we're just thinking about enter the conventional measures that we use to understand the performance of schools what they look like across the Arkansas sex just we're going to start with the progress thank you thanks very much thank you Mr chair. Absent Springer. Thank you Mr chair I think I've asked this question before and I'll raise it again. Why are you all using proficiency rather than exceeds ready close in need of support for the presentations of your of gap's rather than The the four areas that I just mentioned because that's my understanding that is the way that the date is present it exceeds ready close and in need of support. Yes that's the question so we just present that could convince the that kind of the way we speak of it but I will say that in the presentation it connects license five eighteen we do actually offer of the proficiency levels by level so I don't know one through four levels that individual student could be assigned to or make test into of you can kind of get a sense of how that breaks down the distribution of students by low income students for by a race is this the service in there but we did a seven Speaker that is because we want to kind of talk about proficiency judge of that you are you are you are that body or just because sometimes conversation these just a bit more straightforward up following July six in portage there follow up questions to cheer so are you saying that this proficiency means exceeds or doesn't mean ready. He sees the top two levels also I forgot to the Texas medications but I just go by local one two three four three you for your proficiency level for your kind of messed you up so when we talk about proficiency you're basically level three or level four still. Okay and then follow up to your comments regarding the charts I can't read these charts that have been presented to us so the out there's no way that I can see for the students the following with respect to close and in need of support nor ready art are XC. Are you talking about in the appendix C. and D. yes it is a site that will treat you with we can definitely get you something this thank you for you to. Yeah I will I will like to see those results thank you. Meeks. Thank you Mr chairman of the question I had is on your presentation you mentioned several times that the difference in the funding was and swat seven ninety or or eight percent in and in your analysis did you look at how that compares with other states is that seven hundred and ninety dollars in line is that way low way high were we at with that and if we need to do additional funding beyond that what might that funding go towards that's probably a whole separate question but primarily is the seven ninety in line with other states or are we good bad where we. Right to I can take that one this is just in selecting this announcement not a look at the comparison to other states we we've done it you know in some of the other presentations I think including the last presentation we did some look at how other states that they're funding in comparison some of what's in the matrix or or additional to the matrix so we will bring all that together and in a recording but it's that we can look at that specific gap here for this presentation all right thank you thank you Mr. Senator Elliot. Thank you Mr chair as a part of among talking the movie I guess. there your as a part of doing the analysis and even with in keeping with. what we ask you to do is is clear to you that what ever you report to us about closing the gap as is started with the conversation by Representative Lowery that there are forces out side of what we are doing. That are. Probably going to prevent us from closing this gap. Because it seems that we have been doing this and doing this and doing this the same way and I don't know how many years we want to keep doing it without. At least having from somebody some recommendations that here's what you can do. With education. Here are some things you need to consider outside of education if you're ever going to close that gap Senate been a part of your report. Read as one center I think in writing really hit on this earlier and and. Lowery. At some level it is that. It is not our purview to decide how far reaching your interventions will go and I think to write this point there is kind of a classic set of Interventions that schools control I mean schools in our control who is coming into their doors but they can control what they can do for the students once they're there there is a lot of conversation nationally about how for. Rules go into more of the time health and Human Services or the social services sector which I think becomes more of the wraparound services that right to mention we can absolutely even as we talk about the next meeting kind of interventions for these you know for students and where we're that lay because some states have chosen to go a little broader or leased or thinking about going broader and some are much tighter and in part that can have something to do with the level of support that already exist in communities outside of the education system and so I think your point there and if the number of points may. You know. There is a there's a decision point at some point of what is in the cable funding system and but that is a decision that policy makers make and we can bring information in the table about. What made or the different layers of the onion kind of what's the classics seven of your where classically were let the legislature stock and maybe some of the places that they decided to go a little further in more that wraparound sets. Well I to be clear I am I'm not even question and whether or not you're doing and what we should do at the school site level I what I'm asking is. You give us a completely good report about what we've ask of you and we keep talking about these other things and any time I this question ever comes up everybody will acknowledge there are these other things. so I'm not asking you to tell us how to peel the onion or put it back together anything like that I'm asking as researchers do you know that there are other things that you're not trying to tell us what to do but there are some other things if you ever want to close the gap you need to consider or you could consider whether that you advise us to consider them or not is what I'm asking because not having that information seems to leave us in this on this constant roller coaster of doing the same thing and trying to close the gap the same way while we sit here and acknowledge there other things. That we ought to be talking about. Or choose not to talk about I'd like for us to at least have some discussion among ourselves about the things we are not addressing but we know they have something to do with this gap it just seems incomplete to me that we keep doing the same thing every time we have a study. So if you empirically know what some of those things are I'm just asking what it would you tell us not try to tell us what to do. Senator we will bring to the table A what we know ACT to both from the case studies and the data analysis and that our research of what other states are doing that supports the student gaps and and that's what we will bring back to you again. There will be some context around as you know what what are kind of it's the educational spear we we probably cannot bring even it's not the research we do every day every possible thing you can do for families across the spectrum but will bring everything we have that is related to you know getting up to the ability to meet that standard. Thank you thank you Mr. Representative Evans. Thank you Mr chair. Just an array for whoever wants to answer the question when I go back through and and and make sure that I understand the data that you presented. on our page nine. You show that less than half of Arkansas students are proficient in E. LA and less than half of Arkansas students are proficient math. The first bullet point of this is low income students had lower proficiency rates than their non low income peers. If you flip over a couple of pages on our page eleven. You have identified by. Group. That the Pacific Islander the Hispanic in the black or the three lowest performing based upon proficiency and I somewhat echo. Represent of Springer's question that proficiency is. Not necessarily identified is exactly what you mean by that. Then when you go over another couple of pages. On page fourteen. When we're talking about funding in Perth funding as compared performance. You state that low income students on average reside in schools and spend four point nine percent more. In per pupil expenditures compared to non low income students. And two additional pages on our page sixteen. Looking at the funding levels of those three identified groups the Pacific Islander this Spanish student the black students. Funding spent by districts on those students range anywhere from four hundred to eight hundred dollars more per student. If I take those for documents and I kind of shaken up. In late I'm out on the table in short what it looks like your date is trying to tell us. Is that. Based upon the three groups that you've identified there has the performing less proficient. But yes those students tend to go to districts that spend more per student. Then the issue of proficiency is not on spending per student. Am I correct. I would say that you are correct in that assessment I think that the answer to that question is much more new ones I think when we think about Arkansas funding it seems to me that part of the theory of actually has been to find districts with larger high the student populations and a higher rate I think a case sixty with this data showing that you've been successful in doing that but again it turns of the timeline and just duration it takes to really move student outcomes this might be a manifestation effect that you are it doing this we're more money for particular students but you have to have enough time to actually take effect. See that's one potential which might trigger this data again I would say that you're necessarily wrong you can also interpret the way you interpret which is no amount of money will increase do not comes but again from the research respective when you kind of look at how funny does affect outcomes we we do see that read as often have an effect it does increase outcomes so that's what I would say I think this. In a binary but I would I would hesitate to say a strong Gator nay I was saying that it's more new once the and then that followed Mr. Thank you well you're gonna just just trying to analyze the data that you presented and based upon Senator Elliot comment of as you just stated. Arkansas has done a good job of increasing the funding spent to the lower performing students but yet you're data here shows as most recent is eighteen and nineteen. That just by putting more money into those subcategories. Is still not reaching the proficiency levels so if the money's not the answer then to Senate rallies point and I think it be beneficial to this committee to see what is the answer. Thank you. If. And I will just say one thing just to make sure that I'm being clear like in terms of this idea Arkansas is doing a good job all of the state of Arkansas is is supporting the students at a high level of funding but just based on past we break it down the the funding level from some of the the students who are fund at the local people race to the streets refunded Harker people rate change a struck the sixty five dollars extra month so just to be clear yes we do see those students receiving more but again that's kind of a question for the committee in terms of how much more they think is necessary. Representative Beck. Thank you Mr chair. A I guess I I maybe. Staying on this or to law here but they the question I have is You you you're you're admitting that. Red reference back to Representative Lowery statements that there's other factors out there and and Senator Elliot also brought this up but is there any way on a much simpler level to quantify. What percentages that the variances between the different groups of students a demographically different resistance to quantify how much to that is this what you referred to is outside the school verses inside the school because that would certainly tell us. That this committee is. In education as what we could do to to help that wears maybe some of these funds that were popping into the schools might be better spent pop them into other programs that would would help those individuals so I guess the question is is is there any way to quantify that these gaps that you have that Senate five percent this gap is probably related to in school versus twenty five percent house come just on a number out there but is there a way that we can get that day that's sort of a little bit higher level and I think that senator Elliott requesting that but it is even that level would tell us that Hey what you guys are doing you're you're the wrong ball campaign you got it you got a. Go right you mind if I ask you. Yes Sir I don't think there with the data that Senate houses here that in an I actually don't have any data exactly that's gonna be able to have that distinct very that distinct variation and what what is the school school level impact on what is that the family impact I I want to put back on the table that. We are approaching this from the education side this is what we are asked to do. Schools are being held accountable for the performance of their students however they come to school. And really they have to overcome whatever the students can bring in and we know there are certain characteristics that tend to create additional needs for students so Yeah thank you when you think of all the services that might happen any given state does that a little differently and so you know that that's part of the question here for you all as policy makers where should those intervention sent but the expectations for schools as we understand it are going to check you know with those that's not gonna change you know generally accountability systems do not say well if you have a lot of single family parents at home we you don't have to have a higher purports right the expectation of our times that's two performances at a certain level and so we want to keep that in mind that the target is always the same so you know we we can definitely talk about the different pieces here I don't think we can quantify at that level of specificity where that sense I think there could be more general discussions about where might a certain deficit be better addressed but again we are taking the lands that educators have been asked to have a certain to have performance of students and they have to do that within their current contacts I think this is a really brought an interesting conversation about a broader sense of funding as a state I'm not sure we have all of those answers but we definitely don't happen today for you but I want to make sure that we think about that and I want to go back a little bit to write this comment also you know we have shown in the equity study and here again the state directionally gives more dollars where we know there's more need there's always the question of is that the right scale I think the question was asked earlier how did that you know the difference an amount of money in Arkansas compared to other states right some states might have a higher additional amount and maybe that right this point that provides more benefit to those kids to start to close the gaps. File. Of yeah I do I'm understand we're saying I'm not and in any way saying that we should of lower their expectations of any student based upon their conditions outside of school the but at it seems to me like if you are qualifying. The effects of funding and and different areas within the school district that the remaining differences that would be among those groups within. The you should be able to quantify that is Sam okay. Fifty percent this is is the result of the that of the experience outside of school verses in size school it seems like you're quantifying to some degree one side and by that nature it would seem like. What's not on one side would have to be on the other side which be will what you guys refer to is out of school. You know just jump B. I. think like this there are different methodologies that we could use to try to attribute the variance in school performance to in school nurse at school factors but I think we already come to a conclusion day it's really kinda coming not just in the educational research field that there are at a school thank you thank you have a impact on student progress budget justice point the focus here was those in school factors invest more as opposed to being a blind spot in our part was more the focus here was trying to get a sense of what were the things particularly under the purview of the schools that they were going to be going to impact performs in get this even for their presentations this is more just looking at those kind of conventional metrics gaps you get a sense of even if it was all explained by your family situation this is more manifestation of what does that mean what are the gaps collectors proficiency in terms of growth so I think that we don't totally dismissed that because we do take into account what Mona conspirators that's something that you kind of bring outside the school into school right your your social status but for this presentation was more just R. their gas Arkansas that's just address that question in the form in the mood to what are some of the factors for which we measure and we can kind of get a sense of why these gaps exist. Thank you thank you Mr. Senator Elliott. I just I I want to be clear about the the observation that are making that that I ask all of you about I I guess. My concern is more for the actions of the entire Arkansas legislature out what we choose to do and. It is as clear as. You know the. Are sitting here. My son didn't grow up lacking things at home are having a vacation I have an all kind of been Richmond. Leding grow up like a you know a good housing. there is a reason other than what happened at school that he might out score and and do better than some kids at school that will have nothing to do with the amount of money that we sent to the school but rather the opportunities that he had just because of his circumstances outside of that school so I am not asking APA to give us any of that I know I have just for years been Askin are. Our legislature to look at the systems that we have in place that we cannot even begin to broach in this committee. My son had a good home. And could have vacations for reasons that we figured out a way that we could be part of a system that advantage of certain people. So what I'm asking of us is I knew what to me I I don't assume for example that we are putting too much money into trying to write these these gaps. We don't even know it might need to be more than that but I think the bottom line is we are never going to be able to close these gaps And so staying there being close unless we are looking far beyond what we sit here and act as if we are the. The folks who can just do this and make everything happen and. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm for years frustrated and and just hearing there's nothing we can do I think this committee has a responsibility to refer to the other committees in the Arkansas legislature the things that you could tell us perhaps that we know empirically might make a difference in what happens to kids and ask them to address these issues. We cannot address housing in this committee but there is a committee here somewhere that should interest. I I wish we consider at least referring what we cannot fix to the other legislators who want to take some responsibility for helping us fix it that's all I'm saying. And it is a new wants discussion. But it ceases to be nuanced the minute we know that. That's not something we can do in school that's that's not that hard. Thank you Mr chair. Senator Chesterfield. Thank you Mr chair one of the areas of my concern as we look at the gas how many of these students are being taught by teachers in their in their who are in their major area of study. Well we did actually approach the teaching workforce issue in terms of how many are I guess you're getting it like having your emergency certified humming actually have yes A background like if your medication teaching math we approach the issue but I will say he's enters my background that apartment education in Delaware I mean that is issued but I could quantify later speaks to how much to issue or not exceed eight years with in the state of Arkansas but may actually there is not a conversation around teachers be any more questions about in the county here in because that is one component of this larger problem which is like which seems like. But I can't speak directly to a for this analysis. If we are looking at gaps. And yes. I am in a classroom where the teacher is teaching her major area of study or even minor area of study and that means she's not she or he is not having to. Stay one step ahead of me. In looking at a lesson plan. And I think it does have a definitive affect. One how. There being taught. Now what happened in Delaware but having thirty three years of experience in the classroom I do know that if I don't know what I am teaching as well as I should it's going to have a definitive affect one a how children are learning and I have found in traveling across this state that many times. People are not going people who have a major for residents and math I'm not going to Marvell. Are people who have a major in science I'm not going two smaller communities across this state first of all there's no place for them to lay and. Which is a huge problem housing is a huge problem for those who want to teach because in many areas there's no housing available which means then that it is more difficult to recruit individuals to that area and whereas you might not have looked at all of this it is important I keep going back to transportation which nobody wants to deal with particularly but time on task is especially important if I am on the bus but two hours going back and forth that is going to preclude my ability to have the time on task that I need at home or at school to do what I need to do sorry any of those areas going to be a part of what we look at as adequacy. Senator and is gonna conferred with right to so to do that. Work work force level analysis I think you're talking about that would be if the student level. Study that you can get the matching the teachers with this new model data and and we were doing a school level analysis and not a school ninety student Bible announces here just at the scale of analysis that would have to be to be done so right right I wanna make sure that were that was ready well you're you're right we were doing we're doing it now since we really need teacher requesting data right now these students were taught by this teacher what is your background what is sure like the whole expertise nations teaching we did have like course course the which is usually need to acknowledge this so we did it do not what they that we didn't have course thank you stated to this is a what teachers are really qualified to teach a subject which was parking where the impacts of those things as we look at in the past that's one of the reasons that we look at the national board of professional teaching standards so that those individual teachers could elevate their knowledge and we want to do that two PD certainly but it does make a difference it seems to me and and I don't want people to go away with the idea that because kids are poor they can't learn. because having grown up as police jobs Turkey I know that not to be true but it was a matter of we had a great advantage in segregated schools across this state in in during my generation of having teachers who was certified in their area of study. And look at us with the expectation that we would learn. Inside I know that expectation is something that is not easily measured but to know that a person has the ability because of their training to teach I think as a definitive impact on whether or not children able to learn would you agree. I would definitely agree not even save it to your question G. appointed expectations I mean there's there's some looking at the research that when students parents have high expectations their kids perform better in school so I think based definitely and create the point you're making. All right that is all the questions for that so we can move on to item S.. So back to you. Great so if you all can do the concentrations of poverty presentation that's going to be at the Patrick and that's the next presentation. Hello my name is Patrick McCollum a research assistant at west and an educational nonprofit agency that conducts research and provides technical assistance to support schools districts and SEAT's as well as increase educational. In this presentation are present information regarding concentrations of poverty in Arkansas the effects of poverty on student in school level assessment outcomes also identify which demographic characteristics most affect student assessment outcomes and determine whether school size and remoteness also affect these at. Before beginning the presentation I want to formally state the research questions that ground of the analysis of the west research team was interested in examining the effects of poverty remoteness and student demographics on assessment outcomes so specifically the research questions where how does a school's concentration of poverty impact assessment outcomes which demographic characteristics affect student assessment outcomes and how does size in remoteness influence these findings. I also want to provide a roadmap to get you a sense of the things that will cover in this presentation I think you finding section or provide you with the key takeaways from the analysis in the data and methodology section or view the data we use to address the research question and the analytical techniques we employed to examine the data and then finally in the analysis overview will illustrate how I came to those conclusions and provide context about what those findings we. So as a covered in the roadmap will begin with the key findings for this analysis. You findings for the construction poverty analysis demonstrated that concentrations of poverty are highest in elementary schools in remote towns and rural areas schools with higher concentrations of poverty had lower rates of proficiency on the yell a and math ACT aspire assessments as well as lower value added growth in math and you know late in twenty eighteen nineteen. we also found that poverty had a negative effect on the student's likelihood of efficiency as well as the schools proficiency rate on the ACT aspire sets. All in all students own socio economic status was actually more indicative of their performance and the schools concentration of pop and. I will follows it is in overview of the methodology I used for the constrictions of poverty analysis after which will address analysis finding my phone. So to conduct this analysis we use data from several different sources first I west at an EPA executed and you to collect individual student data from the Arkansas department of education the EP from eighty we collected ACT aspire math and yell a scaled scores as well as proficiency level data I'm from this file we also obtain information on student demographics G. also Jane public data from the national center for education statistics education demographic geographic estimates program as well as the eighty data center to obtain school level locale with regards to the and C. S. data and the average class size if we're talking about the eighty data center and then finally we picked up our value added measures of the LA and math growth from the office of education policy at the university of Arkansas and the team analyzed for years of data going from the twenty fifteen sixteen school year to the twenty eighteen nineteen school year. The study involved three types of analyses the first was a descriptive analysis so we looking to concentrations of poverty kind of at a high level analysis we looked at the percentage of students at a school who were doing economically disadvantaged by urban area school type and student demographics. The second was a correlational else's correlation analysis calculates the extent to which to variables are related through what are called correlation coefficients the correlation coefficient of one indicates that the two variables are highly related and the correlation coefficient of zero indicates that two variables are completely unrelated in these can also be positive or negative so if the correlation coefficients positive those variables moving in the same direction and if the correlation coefficients negative those variables move in opposite directions. So we examine the correlations between the concentrations of poverty and performance on ACT aspire exams in terms of A student's Roskilde scores their growth in skilled scores between one year the next and the likelihood of achieving proficiency of the school we looked at correlations between concentrations of poverty and a schools average scale score is value added growth in math and yell a ACT aspire and their average proficiency rate on those tests. I finally the seventeen conducts a linear regression analysis to model those assessment outcomes a little bit more precise this procedure allows us to drill down and isolate the effects of poverty on assessment outcome while holding everything else that is student demographics or school type constant so these models side control for student graphics student or school prior year performance the the school type the enrollment at that school the average user experience of that school and the class size the average class size I think school. Know what you are now see step by step on first reading talk about concentrations of poverty by remoteness by school type and by student demographics then we'll talk about correlations between poverty and student assessment outcomes and once we have an idea where poverty is most prevalent and how it relates to outcomes we can better understand its effect on outcomes through linear regression analysis. So the first key finding we discussed was concentrations of poverty by remote this specifically looking at more in depth in twenty nineteen sixty four point nine students in the state percent of students in this state or classified as economically disadvantaged or low income schools the highest concentrations of poverty with those located in towns and rural areas furthest away from large cities on average at these schools seventy five to eighty percent of students were low income students on and these types of schools schools in remote areas made up sixteen point five five percent of all the public schools in the state in twenty sixteen schools in suburban areas had the lowest constrictions of low income students compared to those rural areas where property was heights. poverty within each locale also very to cross levels of schooling elementary schools tended to have the highest rates of poverty to highlight the difference in poverty across the state we compare large suburban areas to remote towns and rural areas in twenty eighteen nineteen school year the average poverty rate high schools in large urban areas was forty two point five percent committee over eighty percent at elementary schools in remote towns and rural areas are for those who are interested dependents contains a complete breakdown of average rates of poverty across all locales as well as school types in the twenty eighteen nineteen school year. Thank you finding we shared was run concentrations of poverty and student demographics in twenty nineteen forty nine point six eight and twenty six point nine two of all the low income students were white and black respectively these populations made up to sixteen point six percent of the population in the case of white students and black students made up about twenty percent of all students in state. Over eighty four percent of black Hispanic last last let's see next and Pacific Islander students with low income students these with the the most low income proportions of any demographics rates of poverty were also disproportionately high relative the average Amman migrant homeless Ellie P. and sped students. So although I sixty four point nine percent of all students in this state where are economically disadvantaged the proportion of low income students very significantly across students racial and ethnic demographics forty two point five percent of Asian students and fifty three point two percent of white students were low income compared to over eighty percent of Pacific Islander black and Hispanic slash that's next to. Migrant homeless limited English proficient and special education students all had higher proportions of low income students that the statewide average on nearly all of the migrant only students in the state were considered economically disadvantaged as we continue to the correlation and regression analyses it's important to consider the interactions between each student demographic so if students of a particular race and ethnicity were also more likely to belong to any of these FOR demographics on this slide effects of poverty on there's as an outcomes could be larger or at least different from what we might expect. So that looking relations between school poverty and ACT aspire outcomes low income students on average had lower scores and proficiency rates than a wealthy appears on ACT aspire exams sixties three point seven seven percent of non low income students were proficient in math compared to thirty seven point three three percent of low income students in proficient in math on the train was more or less the same in the U. LA scores. at schools of higher rates of poverty at the school level student performance on the ACT aspire also suffered on there is negative correlation between the schools portion of low income students and that schools that the LA skills scores as well as proficiency rates and then that is was portion of low income students was also negatively correlated with that schools map of the. So the constitution of poverty is negatively correlated not only with math and yell a scaled scores and efficiency rates but also also with that schools value and growth in math and yelling. On the next slide here will just talk a little bit about the specific correlations. So the top row shows the correlation between the students at a school who are low income and the proficiency rates whereas the bottom row compare is value added growth in math and yell a against abortion students who are low income so there's a strong negative correlation between school and proficiency rates and school poverty rates especially between yell a proficiency rates and the proportion of low income students this is the strongest negative correlation that negative point six six on the negative point five two with me and that proficiency on and there was also a negative correlation between growth and low income students although that correlation is not as strong as that of the proficiency rates here so you have a correlation between low income students and math growth was slightly stronger than the negative correlation between LA and low income students so across the board whether we're talking about proficiency or growth the upper portion students will low income was negatively correlated with the test outcomes that we're looking at. As we discussed previously I regression model provides a framework to estimate the effects of the concentrations of poverty on student level and school level assessment outcomes we model these assessment outcomes by controlling for a student or S. schools demographic information they're ACT aspire performance in the previous year and their school type student level models estimate the effect of school poverty on students scores provision seeing growth whereas school level models estimate the effective school property on a schools average skilled scores proficiency rates and read. On the models allow us to ask more specific questions that the correlation analysis so the free market working within is a if the schools percentage of low income students would increase by one percentage point all else equal how much we expect that schools math proficiency to change if at all these reductions can also tell us if there is no predicted change based off of a one percentage increase or decrease in question low income students on these models we estimated drop from the twenty fifteen three sixteen at all the way through twenty seventeen through eighteen school years and the reason for this is these were just the years that have the most data points available in the least observations mission so the model was was in the best model that we get asked me with the most. So well it was unclear whether school and poverty rates affected individual students skills scores on the ACT aspire a student's own low income status did significantly affect that students assessment outcomes on low income students were seven point nine seven point three percentage points less likely than that wealthier peers to achieve proficiency in math yell a respectively a similar trend was seen the school levels well on increasing the proportion of low income students by one percentage point with disassociated with a point one four eight percentage point decrease in school white yell a proficiency. having a higher proportion of low income students did have a slight negative effect on students scores from year to year that is the difference in that's students scaled score on but having higher bush of low income students didn't have an effect on us rules value added growth in yelling or math so is affecting students individual scores in terms of skills course but not at the school. one of the strongest predictors of the student's likelihood of achieving math and yell a proficiency was whether they have done so in the previous year so students to achieve proficiency on an exam each year we're likely to do so in the following year and vice versa the students who did not she proficiency or much less like to do so in the following year. All across all the student models though student demographics matter the most low income special education and limited English proficient students were between six and sixteen percentage points less likely to achieve math three LA proficiency involves non low income non special education or not the students on their white peers of black students and Hispanics legislative acts students were also less likely to achieve proficiency and these were some of the some of the demographics that have higher rates of of property as well so not only where there student demographics the racial demographics had negative effects on the test scores but also their low income status would also factor as. So that just about does it we have some of that issues here this is just the terms and definitions slide there's also the concentrations of poverty by locale and school type as well as the correlations between low incomes students here on the Y. axis and different portions of student demographics as you can see how a difference to demographics have different rates of poverty. All right ready for questions senator Johnson what couple whether you're ready. I'm wide awake thank you Mr chair. I love you know I'll always love this saying there lies damned of will license to two sticks I've been looking at the statistics that you've been putting up here and I just need some answers of there's a tendency in the education community to. interchangeable use the word poverty and low income and one of the things I'm concerned about what you're calling people in poverty are low income are we really talking about free and reduced lunches is that the criteria that you're using. I see the lady nodding. A verbal answer would be great just a short. Don't may not. So easy that is a yes is that right this program. Okay up you know in Arkansas all the national of the national household income median household income was fourteen thousand eight hundred seventy five dollars higher than that of the state of Arkansas. And. So am I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's poverty and there's poverty if you live in of higher income community then you in I'm not not excusing our low income state we've got a lot long way to go but it appears to me that the what we are your calling poverty is actually above the state's household median income and I have just it this is a domino that ski seems to fall all across this whole study when what we're calling poverty or low income is based on national me of. Statistic which is perfectly OK because Congress has come up with some way to to fund free and reduced lunches I get that but I'm just not sure that it's applicable across the board to all the things that you've been telling us today I mean I I'm not saying there we get just distro this out I'm just simply saying it causes me to put everything you've said here in the question so can you elaborate on that a little bit. So. After getting. You're you're absolutely right that the at reduced price lunch time. Income levels are not cost of living adjustment across the country and and that is eight an underlying issue in comparability I'm kind of. The value of that level of dollar placed in place but it is both a metric you are using it generally in your funding system and I believe the identification and that you demographic data for low income and Patrick is going to make sure you can for. Yeah my apologies I didn't know if the if the members question had finished but the yeah that is in terms of the in school outcomes that we were we had access to this was the most of us measure student loan. Could I follow that up Mr Mr chairman hi I'm not again I'm not questioning that is a legitimate basis but it appears to me that it's going to have to make any these numbers make any quantifiable sense and I I can look over it Representative back because he's my numbers guy he always helps me is figured out the numbers is there some proportionality reform that we could look at to see exactly who's in poverty I mean I I grew up in a town where you know the the rich people the poor people really not that far apart numerically I mean obviously standards of living very but you know we're not talking about a poor person in New York City versus a rich person in New York City we're talking about Arkansas and a rural area and the things and the statistics that you came up with really showed us Q. of the the. So your term poverty being skewed more to the rural areas and also we were looking at the amount spent per student in the different districts and and the and how that came across I mean I I just it anecdotally see. Problems with sorting out all these numbers because there the I get the the idea of what you're trying to say but I don't think you can take free reduced lunch numbers and arrive at the answer to the question that we're looking at it in in the adequacy side of things up again I've I'll keep an open mind but that was just kind of a red flag that jumped out at me thank you Mr. Senator Chesterfield. Thank you Mr chair. Help me understand this the concentration of poverty did not have the same magnitude of affect as school demographics. And I guess is particularly troubling because you were saying it seems to me you're saying that black and Hispanic kids. Our because of the demographics less likely to do way all. On chest. And I go back to why is that. It cannot be just because of their race. Because there's nothing inherently smarter about white and Asian keys then there is about Blackie it's. And what I have found in my little studies is that test taking is a skill. That is often talk to those who have more money. And those who don't are those less likely to do well on those chest we have found Frances Dr charity Smith goes across this state kids who were F. schools became C. schools in a year when somebody top them the skill set. So help me understand exactly what you're saying with your research. Yes you're exactly correct across all of the models that we estimated a student's own low income status and their own demographic had more to do with their testing outcomes than Then there conservation poverty at that school and although we didn't we didn't have access to some of those outside resources that you mentioned students test taking ability I we weren't able to capture in this analysis but because these a student's test taking ability can absolutely have to do with that students income I think these are all relevant considerations to consider and like you said I don't think that the models reveal any one student demographic being more inherently intelligence that another state demographic but it could be reflective of the the resources that they have access. But I think if I were an outsider just looking at that's that this is exactly what you're saying. And that's what that is what particularly troubling about this for me. Up because you're saying the concentration of poverty did not have the same magnitude of affect as school demographics and then you move to the black and Hispanic or Latino let next dunes achieving less poverty it goes back to what I ask about before the expectation if you look at me and expect that I cannot learn then I will not not And I know that that's something that you cannot quantify. But it is a reality. Thank you Mr chair. Thank you and that. Go ahead. Yeah just act that follow up just one one bit. I think Senator. And that to keep things here and Patrick I think is mentioned bowl at different times One we're looking at the outcomes not the so we are looking at the relationships between the outcomes and demographics of students. That is AT an analysis of what has happened we are not analyzing everything that came in at that that happened at the school level or the fifth level before the. And then to you and I think both right to impact that treatment to the prickly there are really high correlations between that low income status and the demographic population so you know at some level. We your constant it the construction going to tease out because I think it's you know because the eighty five eighty six percent of those two popular those. Students in those racial racial groups are also low income students so there's just a lot of and founding the information that's having there's high correlation between different studies I will date we are starting to see this a little bit more in different states that the individual demographic is the bigger projector that the concentration of the school and I think that's gonna be important for us to talk about here in Arkansas because you have a very specific concentration of poverty She's in your in your funding system and so I want to see how that relates to the data that we're finding. And I wanted to put that a slightly different way when we say the individual demographic matters more I think what we're saying and again Patrick jump in if I'm wrong is that if you are a low income students you are more likely not be performing at a high level regardless of the concentration level of your school so the low income students is the mentally challenged. If they're in a school with a high concentration of poverty or a low concentration or. And it's that that's I think another way. Senator Elliott Carol. And I am at the discussed by a Speaker that someone a question of I don't know where do we go to find out the why of why that. Because if we don't ever get to the why of that and understand how to address that question I'm not asking you I I I'm I'm asking anybody against only is there an answer out there as to why that's happening that we could all get our heads around because if there is not then we will and we don't and we have the information you have given us that we've asked you to give us and we are concentrating on the outputs which you know a whole bunch of people have. I have the same kind of demographics of as we do or that they are even more diverse than we are. And they concentrate more on inputs than they do outputs are we possibly concentrating on the wrong thing. Because where there is huge success where there is a wide diversity they do with the opposite way and we will say something that is more simplistic like I just wanna know the outcomes what that does is gives us an excuse is seems to me to not pay as much attention to be inputs as we should your thoughts about that. Yes I think you brought up some great points unfortunately I was not I was not involved in the in that the process of writing the art eaves for the sub this specific project but I think that if anything and and my teammates can jump in here as well studies like this the focus on the outcomes if nothing else they motivate further studies you really understand the the root causes size oppose these downstream effects. Yes even. Let me just quickly so again as you all know each of these presentations kind of a silent a piece of the overall study so we are looking a lot of that other information. with the other piece thank you all right in art be that has a lot of those other questions this is just the analysis of the gaps of the question. Right but I don't think we want to get yeah it's what's been hard about kind of how we you know we're trying to get you information before final report a final report will bring all this together. Well I I don't want you want I'm not trying to give the impression that you didn't do something we ask us to do yeah but I I really think is my responsibility I'll speak for myself to take the information that you give us and makes at least some professional judgment extrapolations from that because I think that's important otherwise we will just sit here and act as if we didn't learn something. That is not explicitly said to us when all of us have the ability to make these judgments and you know we also have the ability to go out and look at other places that are far more diverse than we are and they don't have the same issues and so that would order or just automatically say to me they must be doing something different from what we're doing and I know the thing that they're doing is they are they are looking at inputs far more than they are outputs because to believe this if you concentrate on the inputs and you get that right you don't have to worry so much and keep beating yourself over the head about whether or not we are going to have these gaps because they will look at certain things about of the teachers that are in our schools where kids that you know we're going to need the most what are we doing to make sure that's a stable work force as opposed to somebody coming and going all the time that stuff matters you pick a school district in this state I guarantee you that's been doing well over a long period of time one of the input you will see is that you have had a long stable work force in that in that district. And. I know that's something we ought to be a dressing I think those kind of things we know what what's happening that is disproportionate. But what are we doing about it is a question why because otherwise you're gonna be right back to what senator Chesterfield said. Surely we are not going to concede that because these kids do when less well on these test they are less smart a less capable and to me that brings a owners right back around to the adults as opposed to keep. Beating up these kids in the schools especially kids what are you doing wrong the question is what are we doing wrong this is not the kids but that's who gets the mark put on them. And we have something called stereotype threat that really does every that's all we talk about we talk about the kids were not performing presume you know the the theory of stereotype threat says you start to believe this is what you're going to be able to do. The kids can't do that. It's it's it's on us. Representing Murdock. Thank you chair and I'll try to be brief because basically BNC been see it previously but what you know as we focus on the E. is which is on the other side the right side of the equal time and we neglect the why which the inputs the left side equal sign and that's where it really lives is it will always be in the is but what we're trying to change in effect is what that he is so our reliance upon the. What's that you give us and the data in it and I guess what we acts four should be a good question first the RP should be something Representative of what we need to get better so again I say you're not doing your job but as we review. What we faxed you that we come up with our own self evaluation to see that how we need to refocus in order to get better but certainly the inputs serving of the term is for what the output would be and that's what we got effectively change but thank you chair. Okay that is all of our questions for that area so which move on to Adam G. is that correct item Jeez next. Yes let's will be that relationship between poor performance and funding if you guys can start at that a presentation. Hello my name is Rachel G. McGill G. agent here today I'll be presenting all performance you. In this presentation present information guarding G. spitting in Arkansas student performance on the stage standardized test ACT aspire. Me analysis we examine the relationship between funding and student and FOR state. After the content will be presenting today follow the same arc as used in patients value with highland takeaways or do you. Ology marking text socks also please feel free to call will be less than one project we provided for additional information context. We're just rolled that. You thought it was important that one. Each apartment Aussies are guided by specific research questions. This analysis is that eighteen Senate house the meeting rooms academic performance. Specifically are we should question was what is a she she between creek peoples in the instance and could she yes I am. BCS five. A rule meant to this constitution yes files. These findings. We then moved to methodology including data sources. Create within overview. Since. Again the key findings section revise chichi taking lease from the amounts. One. Schools in more per people large Heidi G. operations compared to schools to spend less. people seeing increases as a percentage of low incomes Ellen P. warring students and school increase. The first indication that more money for education funding is being emergency Spanish students. Some of the nice things your record in the extreme things. Thank you DO not gonna lie for their not did not this is Judy is increased she. We share is that on average well students perform higher rates the mathematician is generally not exponentially more. Secondly. On average the students to receive higher per people house in eighteen did not perform substantially better in math or E. Ellie compare to students that receives less. Was a slight negative correlation between Kerr people stand seized our sports each week to. In the same year Kirk and the to Simpson's in case you're like happy since the spider skill scores. Form factors. Our findings suggest in Arkansas. DO you received more funny Kerr people did not on average for students she will announce this finding is important stand the schools going to be getting ratings and distance June demographics mistrust more concise. Here you briefly review the data sources the research team live out and this is Clark just used to conduct the announced. Right now system performs the funding in the state utilize the same date as was available for for twenty. Yes thank you for sources. Number one the Arkansas power of education and also the eighties school in post I or my state house. Everybody Arkansas specific proficiency in a graphic expenditure data. Also the team receive data from the national center for educational statistics department or centre house within that. US department of education. Lastly the team receives school growth or thank you and it makes your data office education policy if you receive Arkansas or we will also be able to correct Arkansas specific education. The methodology we your last. The house is researching executed descriptive interaction house. House this was use some rice G. stride date confined panders. Nas distribution for aggression which isn't calculating statistics like me you're in Cincinnati nation. This is a school models to the data using regression purchase. Fiscal models or use first let's or no logistic regression the second was the least actually operator. Last. used in order to understand they should between four hundred. As opposed investigating issues long correlations your. A more precise estimate she she can call forms the funding holding a greater polls. Hi four also point to be cleared with limitations these approaches. First. Calls will announce. Therefore we cannot see the tentatively this standing calls or the articles increased student outcomes. Secondly we know that in Arkansas schools to spend more per people also served in the graphics students in many instances no this is for post it is changing. Last are now this is not a justification for thank you miss or the notion how much spending is new to secure specific student outcomes. By just a bit more context render Christian now sees. We're in alleged you the question is Christian approach or entity. Sport at all. This means the outcome of interest are is comprised categories and then the actual underlying order. We use all LR to analyze you section one proficiency levels proficiency levels are categories the national order. Also a lark to be used actually I ask for probabilities not. Well our analysis we can respectful student school and district characteristics. We also why should they should between per people find the yelling and man east yes fire skills course. For this we use the last. Last year's associated with machine learning techniques. Essentially when their needs opposing may be important to control for it makes sense to the distinction of her balls this gently model lasso address is this I do not bind coverage in the most important I should be others out. We saw last as a check on the money from the previous house. Mr results. This table in this particular slide describe school profiles based upon people sing the deskside. A desktop is a portion or slice and distribution this form to cut points this section of the distribution to teen court parts here the first yes I represents the chambers in schools or she we your per pupil spending from across the state. Yes I find schools at the midpoint. Yes she describes schools this the most people. The table we see if you think. First it's Kerr people standing increases school demographics also change. people standing in line increases we see that the percentage of low income students state students at the piece students in your instance increase as well. This suggests that the schools and more on average and large disadvantage for high the student populations. Secondly from the table we can see the range occur people streaming across the state Aries. Please note this date is for twenty eighteen is only errors in the schools to which we collect Eckerd school what looks the state. Was that we should get critical twenty can range depending on the school the student attendance. Last to the table we get a sense of the mid point immediate per people sitting out in Arkansas is nine thousand four hundred eighty three dollars being that it nine thousand forty eighty three dollars roughly fifty percent students get more people in roughly fifty percent less. By July twenty eighteen a great read Neil eight six this year performance by asking what. We do this by using box tops boxing was compliance represent distribution to test scores. Hot show the bottom and top of the distribution lines or whiskers. About twenty five percent in the top twenty percent discourse. House apartment distribution with the largely rectangles. These rectangles are split bottom line in the middle which represented needy or midpoint entrance test scores the entire sheet rectangular region Representative or tolerate this range represents work eighty percent of all scores live. This is usually the distribution of eighth grade taskforce last evening decide. Plus the street many at the LA performance as per peoples in the crease. I can't speeding is indicated by the tests on the X. axis. These dessange represent the same when shown in the previous team or previous lark. All the bombs tossed in the street a slight negative correlation between Kerr people standing in it she. This issue for both E. LA mayor ACT aspire skills course. This also means is for people spending went up. And we're conformance went down. Additionally we saw this decrease is very slight or even negligible. The visual interpretation of these grass will be discords do not increase as funding increase. Again the state. Man you know eight ACT aspire performance I standing level. In the street making on performance as per pupil funding increases. Yes shown in the first tables while. Both box in the street a slight negative correlation between Kerr people funding ACT just as they did for a great. This is a young lady in mass. The results are consisting what we found eight great but it only. Your consistent with the results record great which the city team also analyzed. Interpretation of all these Christian cannot be the scores do not seem to increase as funding increases. From the visual analysis we see the academic performance is not senior changes per people funding increases knowing the still recall schools receive more funding for schools center at the higher decide house. Actually Sir larger sentence if the high needs students. In this table. Your present leaking correlations between funding in achieving and. Great. Again all we do here is. Calculate the correlations between funding and she. I agree. This summarizes with correlation coefficients exactly what we previously digitalized in the last two slides the boxing class. To summarize what we found is that ACT aspire may have you know a skills course in a slight negative correlation with funding. All three levels. Help for third graders eight graders to reduce. And again this. Actors. But we do see that occur people funding does not seem to have a strong relationship. With performance. And this is the result of our operation she's. As noted earlier teen employer regression techniques to better understand the relationship between spending academic performance. This is because Christian allows us to analyze a specific goals. FOR other factors that could potentially can grounding else these first increased. The first four or no less aggression or well our results. Okay Senator or no lectures in regression houses if you. These. In the table displayed on the right we should probability of being a level for student in the student's fund it in eight thousand two hundred and fifty dollars per pupil rate. And also probability if this is the worst limit at eleven thousand two hundred fifty dollars per people. Being a look for students in the case of the student the highest range proficiency level distribution. In analyzing stable first we see that Stephen hypermobility being liable for E. LA reading mass which is interesting finding enough so. Secondly. Question sandy we see the probability of being on hold for students in any other way is. Changed you if a student receives more money our people. Well our analysis results of the district of analyses. We see is that the additional funds for people are not this sherry and their intended impact ensure increased funding does not seem to show a strong positive relationship worker since you. The last of findings. As discussed earlier research team also use the last so released. She selects operator. On the previous results. Sincerely we wanted to run the analysis to different ways to see if our findings online. Again the last of the simple way to assess the contribution of many different variables in. All the actors. Appearing on. Well actually for previous results you must still reiterate that this is not a call something else. However we did find was that again. The last so did help us identify. narcissistic on model. Under siege identified those corporate the coverage that working to be most to form. Thanks I keep use your task force student characteristics teacher workforce here to restrict not so that regular students. What we can was at the lesser souls it in fact align with the results from previous analyses. Which was. people standing did not agree to substantive gains from ACT aspire student performance. In summary. Schools large persons at risk students. Person is at risk students on average expend more per people thank you Mr Speaker close as part of the Arkansas education funding system aims revised high needs students with additional. Secondly. There is also the analyses indicated that Kerr people funding differences along do not agree to gazing ACT is far permission or any other way. From this analyses we see the increase in funding and not researching to the point where students are levels in the proportions stance the better students or she less. Lastly indication current funding levels would not closed cheating and arching gets for Arkansas students. Even after reporting covers you Johnson the results. Responding her people going to substance Arkansas on the internet which negligible relationship with outcomes. Again. Thank you for your. We appreciate you listening if you have any further questions or like additional details please see the one companies. Cation. Science. Okay read questions. Representative Lowery. Thank you Mr chair. In in reading of this particular section of following along with your presentation I in the end it this may be you know some of the language here especially in the summary maybe it's a question of semantics but here's here's the way I see it your key finding says students receiving higher per pupil funding did not. Did not perform section substantively better in math three LA and then your summary seems to point in say analysis in the analysis indicates that current funding levels would not close achievement gap. Those two things seem like saying two plus two equals five. I don't know how. In a in a again I I'm leaving it open it it just may be a semantic goal issue here but the summary statement seems to indicate what we could close to get the gap even though we've not been successful by spending more money we click could close the gap if we could spend more money could you could you explain that to me that I that I'm miss reading that summary statement. Yes and now when you say you say you're Mister I thank you so the factual basis we're still be saying that if the motivation is to distribute more first a particular students to increase your cheating at the current rate just getting the data that we analyzed that's not necessarily going to happen because those ranges are close but it's not to say that this is actually see more money is what we're advocating FOR because really not advocating the one position together well what I will say I think this kind of came up before in terms of getting at the Y. on the same day more money has to be the only answer but it is a saying that we don't necessarily know that we only made that we should be really focused on because they're a lot of reasons why you get these results given if they'd just to kind of go down the list one reason might be that your money based not used efficiently other it might not be sufficient it might be a human capital concerned and some of the other members of the committee I stand so um we're not really saying or reporting to and if you in particular position if we can reporting on the results which are that at this particular juncture given the relations that we see you're not seen. The amount of money that's being used to the system is being in you should have seen the game and. Okay so as you see your children background if the person that's okay that's all right so is it possible in the next presentation where we will hear of affective uses of poverty funding that we might be presented with. Some alternatives to what we are currently doing so that we are more efficient in what we're spending rather than us continuing to follow up because we've we've seen this we've heard this analysis before even from of the department of education we've heard several years ago that it no matter how much money we spend to close the poverty gap we've not affected it at all and this is over a ten year or more period now there's there being increases their bid improvements but we've not close the gap. So just kind of getting your crystal ball out can we anticipate in the next presentation at the next meeting that we are actually going to be presented with scenarios of how we could be more efficient in targeting our our poverty funding add to close the gap. And that may not be a question to you as as opposed to the the team. What we are yet we're gonna bring back information from case studies and literature review what are the interventions that are being used to to best serve these communities and so I think your point that we we do not have a full scan on everything that's happening in every school what will have a scan on in those schools that we might get a fight is successful on what they're doing and also how that relates to what other evidence I'm actually says needs to be done so we can talk a lot about the types of programs you want to see. with those edition of with those types of interventions in those additional risk so best practices not necessarily more funding. We will be talking about how the best practices for those use the funds to Justin's point on that information coming from the case studies we also have that information in that and district survey that went out to all the districts that we had about two hundred of the district sign eight about a. What they feel the most effective use of the funds they receive okay great thank you thank you Mr chair. Thank you madam chair I'm wondering to the individuals who are doing the report. There have. Men efforts made that have been successful in moving children from what I considered F. schools to see schools may we share with you those individuals who have done that in case they are not a part of your study so that you could visit with them about what works you could possibly bring it back to us or is that a part of what you do. Senator that is something I I would lead to the cochairs and you all to discuss and and we check in with them after that meeting to see if there's anything else that asked us to do it's not it's not more than that response we had but we can we leave it up to you all to talk about that I'm just wondering because as we do these case studies are we doing case studies in what works and what does not work all we just randomly choosing of those individuals who respond as opposed to those who do not because if all we're doing is just dealing with. Well it just happens to be this way because we did a random thing I'd like to see those places that do a better job of educating our children. Of and and I'm in those children of poverty particularly where have we seen five races a state department going to be able to share with you those areas where there has been marked improvement as far as children of color in poverty are concerned all we just gonna deal continue to deal with this over will willingly negative picture this being sown about how are our children of color doing so I need to know something that works and if we can get something that has work then perhaps we can generate that and make it work in more places is that how we're looking at this so how you doing these case studies. Yes it's center AB. You know it's it's been a it's been quite awhile since we we walked to the case studies but as. You may remember that we did a selection process that actually look at the performance of schools ACT related to their demographics we were really focused on schools who had higher needs overall populations and so those were acting in that spring we talk to those schools to both teachers and leaders to talk just your point what do they do to be successful with these populations and so that that is really the date on which in schools that we buy selected because they were successful with students what were they doing we will also have district information on generally what they think I will be able from the educator panels again for your point generally what they think it will make sure that there and then there there's the national research on what works. So we will make sure to limit pretty specifically where each of those data points are. Thank you. All right that's all of our questions for that one. So I guess we will move to Adam. H.. Of age. Yes. This will be our last presentation today it's going to be Patrick what it is not the relationship between class size and so workforce characteristics but teacher. My name's Patrick McClellan I'm a research assistant here Westend medication nonprofit agency that conducts research and provides technical assistance to support schools districts in NCAAs and also increase educational equity. In this presentation are present information regarding K. through twelve class size in Arkansas student performance on standardized tests the ACT aspire as well as information on how teacher workforce characteristics quelling student success. Before beginning that would be important to address just two things first wanted to formally state the research questions the ground of the analysis so to assess how class size influence academic performance we consider the following research questions. Well first how does class size very in Arkansas does achievement in math and yell a as measured by the ACT aspire then on class size. And what factors in Arkansas to determine teacher salary. Secondly we want to provide a roadmap to just kind of get a sense of things will cover in the presentation. I think you finding section will provide you with key takeaways from the analysis in the methodology section will review the data analyzed and that to address the research question as well as the analytical technique we used to examine the data and the analysis overview will illustrate how we came to our conclusions and provide context about with findings me. So again thank you finding section here first it will provide you with key takeaways from the analysis. The first result someone in to defer the three groups we might expect that is the percentage of high needs students increase class size would decrease for limited English proficiency students are class size increased as the percentage of eligible students group. we also saw the more variation in achievement was explain VS student demographics and their previous performance than through class size so although we expect smaller class sizes translated better scores we actually observe the class size does explain much of variation G.. And third well average teacher salaries are correlated with higher performance on the ACT aspire exams so too is teacher experience so the higher performance on these exams could be explained by teacher experience rather than teacher salary. Your will briefly review the data sources the research team relied on and that's the school approaches that were used to conduct the analysis. To conduct this analysis we use data from three different sources first western APA ACT scan it in and you to collect individual student level data from Arkansas department of education from the eighty collected ACT aspire math in the LA scores as well as proficiency level data from this file we also attain student level demographics. From eighty website the research team was able to acquire twenty eighteen average class size date at school level this information was a main point of focus this analysis. Lastly the team utilize school level value added measures as in the other analyses to capture average student achievement at the school level and that growth specifically between between two years. FOR the descriptive analysis the team calculate descriptive statistics to summarize or describe the data we collected to find patterns descriptive analyses may entail univariate analyses that describe the distribution of variables this presentation we study class sizes across the state to understand the learning environment that children in Arkansas that was just in Arkansas and count. we also employee ordinary least squares regression to explore relationships between variables on average all the other variables constant. This approach is essentially allows us to account for important factors that if unaccounted for would potentially confounding analysis and make findings less clear. So I this will be in the that the meat and the analysis section and we'll start with just the distribution of average class. So here we very we visualize variation in class sizes to provide descriptive statistics that summarize the distribution of sizes across schooling types graphic displays three histograms which illustrate the mid point and a very ation of distribution so the higher the been symbolizes the number of schools where the vertical red lines marking the average within this distribution so the average class size across all schools and elementary schools middle schools and high schools you can see average is marked here with these Redlands. the with of the bands that show the variation or the dispersion so the wider this distribution of the more variation there is an average class size at a certain school. So these three graphic so straight three main things. My number one class size is very by school type we see that in Arkansas the average high school class size is about twelve students read elementary schools and middle schools high schools have the lowest class says on average on the next most class sizes are within the middle schools which averaged seventeen point one students per class and elementary schools have a large class sizes on average here the average class size was eighteen point five students per class. there's more variation in class size that is the the with the these histograms on there's more variation class size at the elementary school and high school level compared to the middle school level so this means that the range of class size is larger for high school and elementary students that is for middle school students. And then finally there many more elementary schools and they were middle schools and high schools on the C. five twenty four elementary schools year only a hundred sixty five middle schools and two hundred thirty five high school so this year difference in the number of schools might be part of the reason why elementary schools street more variation in class size than middle school to high schools. In this light visualize the by very relationship between class size here and the school demographics using scatter plots on the Y. axis we have class sizes that on the X. axis we have the percentage of each demographic. this got applies to big house doing at changes the student demographics related changes an average class size I would send the plots to see it class sizes change as school demographics change specifically were interested in observing in class as a shrink or grow depending on the demographics of the school. When this chart a few things are paired on class sizes do very by school demographics as a percentage of African American students and the percentage of white students and schools increase the average class sizes decrease is the two largest student racial slash ethnic groups of the states in the state rather the opposite was true for Hispanic and Asian students as a percent of these due to these two student groups increase class size increases. Average class size also decreases as a percentage of low income students almost students and students with disabilities increase this suggests that as the presented at risk students increase access to decrease within the state of Arkansas alternatively a class as actually increase as a percentage of Ellie P. students in creeks here is subpart as positive line here. Now we'll look into the relationship between class size and mass and the LA being value added growth as it relates to average class size again we use got applied to visualize the by very relationship between class size and growth the grass for both math and the LA are similar in that the display a positive relationship which suggests as class sizes increase mapping yell a growth increase this is pretty counter intuitive sense you might assume that lower class sizes we translate to better academic performance but it's important for these results in the context in the previous slide and saw that higher percentages of at risk for high needs students usually attend schools with lower class size so that result potentially explains the trends we see here essentially schools with lower class sizes serve more low income special education and home with students in the schools of larger class as. Offered by these information for you discuss the findings from the Russians. The following table describes it teachers average median years of experience by school type into twenty eighteen. Elementary schools were among the least experienced averaging eleven point seven three years experience compared to high school teachers who average almost thirteen years of experience which makes sense given them the low level school. Across all levels of schooling the median years experience was less than the average user experience which indicates that there are more early year career your early career teachers and there are experienced teachers and of those experience teachers are highly experienced with polls up the average user experience. Because the teacher salary and assessment outcomes depend on the teachers years of experience this is available interest in the next phase of house. So here the results of the first Russian which we looked at in which we looked at the effective class sizes on assessment outcomes on this study seem fit a linear regression model to school level data to estimate the relationship between class sizes and student growth we use again the value added measure or van to use as a measure for items when examining these relationships statistical significance is a way of measuring how confident we are about the relationship between any two variables of interest can also determined that a very bill may have no statistically significant effect on another variable which simply means that we we can't identify relationship between two variables this. It doesn't necessarily mean that there is no relationship but it means that under the model that we estimated we could. So we were interested in whether class size have an effect on student growth and there is also a Russian indicate that class size actually does not have us this to be significant effect on student growth in math or yell a after court accounting for other important factors such as your experience student demographics instructional expenditures and revenue measures all which did have effects on student growth. the proportion of students in a school board Ellie P. students and one of the largest positive effects on the schools being value added growth and this fact is more pronounced in the LA growth and map. Very well the next largest effect on the schools growth was that schools VA and growth measure in the prior year so they previous years growth was predictive of that growth the man next year if a school at high growth in one year it tends to have high growth in the next year as well vice versa that low growth in one year intended to have low growth in next year's well. Finally enrollment had a very small but statistically significant negative effect on the LA growth although not background the model indicated that higher enrollment had a slight negative impact on the LA growth so schools of higher enrollment at slightly lower yell a grade schoolers. Turning the focus to the future workforce direction of the team estimated a linear regression to model the average teacher salary and he's just across the state of these models considered several financial variables to account for disputes revenues expenditures as well as the district level average teacher characteristics. On average teacher experience have the largest this sickness Medicaid effect on teacher salary other ration predicted that a one year increase in average teacher salary average user experience pardon me at the district level was associated with a two hundred forty four dollars increase in average teacher salary at that district this makes sense because you just hours are often directly tied to their use of service for their pay scale. Total full time equivalent employees and a district also had a negative impact on teacher salary indicating that hiring more employees at a district was associated with lower average teacher pay on average. I'm finally total mills and current expenditures have positive effects on teacher salary at a given district indicating that higher taxing higher spending districts and to their teachers more as well. So finally just to reiterate the key findings class size varies by a few factors varies by grade band on the race ethnicity within the students of the school on and the I. percentages of English learners or special education students as well as low income students at that school. schools that serve larger percentages of high needs students have smaller class sizes but I regression doesn't indicate that smaller class sizes a quick. And then finally eyes as seven last slide the net current expenditures and a district and the total mills in that area we're both statistically significant predictors of teacher salary which indicates that means that expend more and tax more also pay teachers more on average. that just doesn't for this analysis as with the others there is an appendix year with key terms and definitions on and will I be happy to questions. Senator Chesterfield. Thank you Mr chair could you please tell me what the other factors were thank you control for that leads you to believe that class size doesn't have any measurable impact or effect. On. Over those that other factors that you used to come to that determination. Yes so the the model that is and I believe I just wanna make sure we're talking about the school level growth here that the that we that we reference in this presentation we control board class size teacher's experience the average teacher experience in the district I rather average your experience of the school previous Grove in map of the LA and then student demographic characteristics which as any other analyses control for the proportion of the students of the school who qualify for reduced lunch I guess if you get to it doesn't matter how big the class size is. So the all of that leads you to believe that it didn't matter with the class was fifteen of forty as to whether or not Iggy it can learn. So yeah and and one of my teammates you can jump in if I'm if I'm not totally clear but I think that the the gist of what the model said was although class size you know is is a relevant consideration in in all these analyses and look that most of the variation in growth in math yo eight had to do was to demographics on the one hand order that schools growth in the prior year so broke in the prior year may have some relationship to class but ultimately when now we when we asked me these models some of the more some of the more powerful impacts on growth where the proportion of students that were only be students and the previous year's performance and that yeah like. So you know just in terms of thinking about this now sits in practice the class size in Arkansas relatively small there's not a lot of variation so when you think about it it's not Mr the difference between a class size alone in a class five to fifty students but it's more along the lines of holding all was kind of the class size of twelve in a Class A sixteen is more predicated on like the teaching experience it how good of instructed they are in other factors thanks to Democrats as opposed to those extra for students or work for I ask you some questions that will be more the the something to interpretation of the house and that would make more sense to me than just a statement saying after quote after controlling for other factors amount do not indicate that smaller class as the committee to increase student growth because all of the class as the A just about the same is that what you're saying. Yes yes yes then turned to the balance of exactly how class sizes really work if you're right of way of a good contact but we wouldn't say that a class of the two major issues in the same class size of one well what we're saying is that within Arkansas enters the balance if you speak with an Arkansas that range which is particularly constraint you don't really see a difference when you start increasing one or two or three or four students other factors would tell you more about performance as opposed to class last week if you stated previously like the background of the teacher would give us more insight given our models the in the class size right I think that would have been helpful to have set that because it it just flies in the face of everything I know because if you have a class of fifteen verses that a forty is going to make a difference in whether or not children learn but predicated on the class sizes in this state as we know them that is what you're saying. Yes ma'am therefore there's not that appreciable difference the class size is indeed a difference maker in whether or not Keith succeed would you agree. I would agree and even what we saw even we report the results again we have some very kind of resistance to call guidelines in terms of what we will report but there was some evidence suggests a class I sent the thank you but in terms of we report results to make sure they're like within like standard statistical convention you would make you are committed class size to speak more to you that the different indicators that so a large amended to thank you thank you we saw from the nicest ever more important the size that they said were statistically significant so and so the rate of the child. As I look on page fifteen the race of the child has more to do with whether he or she learns. Is that what you're saying here. Well I think that like this we are this is not report. We would probably interpret that is your race is more of a mentor station on the structural issues that you might be dealing with right so even we show that information around last students Hispanic students I'm not simply because you're black this because you have a higher incidence of poverty right there's also the other thing structural issues that we know it students of color have to deal with right that will affect their learning in the classroom so we state your race I have I delete your suspect or test scores we actually you're African American but it's as an African American child what all these things all the structural all of the background pages you may have to deal with the others just might not mistaken to deal with it's manifest in. Poor test scores but again I would say I would never make our communities it's inherently because of your race I would say there's more other things are poorly we're race had to do with how black students are not getting leave them but the thing is that the deal with things that they're exposed to well I'm glad to hear that because in writing here that's what it seems to be saying. That's why I find it particularly offensive. Yeah. I think it I think this is probably really a standard way of a please touch results but again to do once is important with the understanding that if you are black students on average by students do not perform as high or before the same level or the state assistance and other students and that's just the actual but in terms of your question and maybe the deeper question the committee why we're not reporting the why to be because by individuals are black or brown students are making the arrest marking of the students why we would go to probably get a totally different granted in science granting the literature and and that's not the direction we will go in terms of making some type of like no seat you are this not we're thinking I don't think that's what the results report but to your point I think that we could get a better job of cleaning the context but this is kind of laid out there to commit drive ins just a cool four made but we could we could do a better job of making sure that that sounds through a bit better. Represents prayer. Thank you Mr chair of. I don't know that this is specifically directed toward the gentleman that just spoke but I would just like to know how many schools and our school districts. Make up the analyses that have been presented here today so each one of the and analyses that have been. Presented how can you tell us how many schools in our school districts. Thank up these reports that you've given here today. Yes I actually don't have the number of districts off the top of my head but it was more or less about a thousand schools every year I believe in in twenty eighteen it was actually nine hundred ninety nine. I'm sorry I do you cut out I didn't hear. Yes I'm not sure in very slightly from year to year but it was more or less about a thousand schools every year in twenty eighteen I believe it was nine hundred ninety. So each one of these report you you look at data from a thousand schools to make up each one of the reports that were presented here today. Yes I believe I write to consignment here as well I think that we looked at about on a million students over the course of the the entire Davis at for use of analysis. Alright thank you. Reps are Lowery. Thank you thank you Mr chair wonder of follow up on the the the questions that senator Chesterfield had related to the class size The second statement on your suffering that talks about the larger percentages of high needs students have smaller class sizes. But the regression results do not indicate smaller class sizes equate to higher growth that seems to be run counter to all of the nationally recognized research is that that looks at especially the lower grades kindergarten through fourth grade when it comes to reading at grade level and how it relates to to low income war underserved populations are are you is your now seek analysis here saying that Arkansas flies against that national perspective that lower class sizes at the lower grade levels. Would be beneficial. No I I I don't believe so and and I just wanna make sure that I'm understanding correctly first of all it could be the case that in certain great bands small class sizes do have that a very specific fact on those classes testing outcomes after this analysis I don't believe that we had testing data beyond earlier than third rate rather so we're looking at a third through tenth grade data so that that could be another new ones in the in your your take there as well and I think that sorry I forgot about what the that differs from the question will. But we we do have a have a spire ACT aspire greats at I mean no scores at was it third grader fourth grade of their part in. Third grade after yeah of so in the research I'm familiar with just looks at the issue of the long term benefits for instance of pre K.. And hal of is some studies of Rev reference that those those successes or those six. Improvements fade sometimes by the fourth grade if you of not maintain lower class sizes so I guess my question is is there possible it is it possible that there is a more nuanced look that could be taken or done of our class size information at the lower grades. I have been here I think yes just in terms of like hypothetically yes we could do a different analyses to look but I think what we really need to hit home here just idea that this not this was the call so right you kind of brought up like the research shows that smart class sizes do often translate to increase the I'll close but again what Patrick also saw the nice this was that we need to those calls and now sees it's like the same students being smart class then also the larger grants to saying that class size it's the state here you don't really have the same demographics in this mark last signs we have more higher need students so to compare them to the larger class sizes it's not Mr apples to apples comparison and asking down and actually make the statement this observation analyses for using a best day that we have available and that's all we can to make a statement that on average we would we would believe that class sizes right like reducing that to a certain degree okay have a benefit but to save time that might initially be what we see in your state because. Students are not ready to be distributed to different schools a different class size their story right Senate schools yeah right and I know I understand that you can't measure against a hypothetical I I guess what I'm asking is there is there any ability in the data that you have access to to do apples to apples comparisons at those lower grades in those class sizes to see whether there has been a benefit. from one scene district to let us get to come together after this call I think there's a couple things we can look at their at the. As Patrick much we control for previous growth here engrossed so we can do probably some level now says that takes out the previous and just look at. There's a couple other ways we might be able to pull this apart I want to talk to the cochairs make sure that you know again we. This last we just need to walk through that piece okay but what is a good look at there's a way to do it and to your point especially for that lower level which we know that's where more that the chance to start results of things like that for it back Hey two three then. Okay thank you thank you Mr chair. Senator Elliott. Since you're not I thank the the first part of my question I can figure out the answer from the case changed just that just happened so I just have a question for that the chairs I guess when we were talking about the demographics this especially for a Blatnick students African Americans and maybe native Americans not be an inherently incapable of DO one well. Then we need to drill down to the why of it that's what we don't have in so many ways And I I wonder if you would entertain the idea of having somebody come and talk to our class about the structural and the systemic barriers that of. We don't address in this is in this I think properly in some ways in this committee and definitely not in the study that we're doing. If you would entertain the idea of somebody helping us understand what those systemic instructional bears OR that I think most people you know in the research field recognize and know about that is not a part of our study are you talking to us I am yes. Yeah I did say I I said I I got my of answer from. Sure look we'll see if we can find someone okay I I would be absolutely willing to help you work on finding somebody that's I because I I don't I don't want to just engage in a lot of finger pointing there's not getting us and that's not the point of it but I think it's really important if we understand the those structural and systemic barriers that have been there sense of some of these folks right of my ancestors arrived on this continent that steel verbal rate through what happens even in our school see what we can do all right thank you thank you. All right Justin and team I think that is all the questions we have for today and so on which all final. Thank you all so much for the time and we'll talk soon again. Thank. Thank you all right see you next time. All right the tomorrow morning nine o'clock we have a. If if you look at the agenda online it's going to kind of rotate tomorrow we're going to change some people up because I need to be your early and so we're gonna make that change a little bit so we'll see tomorrow. We are adjourned.