Legislative Joint Auditing - Executive Committee

And it's from the december seventh twenty twenty three meeting a version of those minutes was emailed to you prior to this meeting so you should have had the opportunity to be those prior to they do I see a motion to adopt a minute to see a motion senator sullivan second senator johnson in a discussion all those in favor say I all those opposed the as habit the minutes from the december seventh twenty twenty three minute meeting have been adopted next time on the agenda is a status of special reports and at this time i'll recognize miss williams thank you mister chair in your stack you have a list of reports that are going to be presented this afternoon that have some type of. Ethics shortage improper transaction that will be referred to the prosecutor and to the attorney general's office for a review and tomorrow we have two reports to present to the committee one is the city of mary and district court in this report we have a over five year period where the court cler- misappropriated was catholician of four hundred plus thousand dollars that wasn't deposited she has been terminated from her position and charged with that the property and it trial is set for the end of february and then the other report we have for tomorrow is pursue it to act that you six six fifty six it was passed in this last session which as that too look at department of education's child nutrition unit to determine rather each school's participation in a child initially child christian program complies with federal estate laws and that'll be presented tomorrow as well that concludes my report thank you missus williams are there any members who have any questions this time senator solomon you're recognized. Thank you mister chair is there a threshold at when they should at an agency should report it to the local law forcement the prosecutor how do they know when to refer it we're not to I don't think the agency necessarily sometimes they have they reported to state police or to a prosecutor but normally we our staff gets involved or consecutor ask us to look into this particular case at mario catch okay thank you. Any other questions by committee members seeing nine thank you miss williams will move to the next item on the agenda which is new business and at this time i'd recognize recognition as mister are. The. Yeah. Thank you mister chairman we we were asked by a legislator not too long ago what can the legislative joint auditing committee or the committee do about findings meant you just take the report followed way and that see it there are obviously things that you're already familiar with that you can do with findings for example when you have a mispin road phones of city spends and in the general fine you know there's a way to hold those same sort of thing with violations limiting spell accounting law what I want to talk about though are three more general procedures or mechanisms for addressing findings those would be the arkansas government compliance act the local fiscal management responsibility act and the state fiscal management responsibility act and you should have copies of those three acts in front of you and a newspaper article that might be a little inspirational to start with the arkansas government compliance act I think to understand it you should look at act at section three o four that's going to be on the fourth page of this particular part of the hand out. And it's a long list of codes sections that are incorporated into this particular act now this list of code sections doesn't tell you much so i've attached a a something I typed up that's just a list of these code sections and their short title or a very short description of what they actually do and that's on the very back of this this part of the handout that has to do with this particular act. The heading is code references in arkansas code annotated ten four three o four. But again ten four three o four has a list of of other laws that are incorporated into this particular act next see the definition of public servant in ten four three o two pretty broad definition applies to somebody who works for the state or for a local entity in political subdivision anybody exercising the functions of such a person any person advising such a person or anybody elected to be such a person so you've really covered a lot of state and local employees with that definition of public servants are this all gets put together in ten four four oh three that section provides that any public servant commits the offense of noncompliance if he or she either a doesn't comply with the arkansas government compliance act itself or be doesn't comply with any of the laws listed in ten four three o four. So again you've incorporated in ten four three or four bunch of laws out there that that all of us are subject to this is going to give you a criminal penalty for somebody that does not comply with those laws and you'll note that the offense of noncompliance is a misdemeanor so what does this have to do with this committee well if you look at ten four three o five. The committee's coach here's are charged with notifying public servants of their deficiencies when they perform these laws and of course those come to your attention when you see one of our audit reports and it says the notice should summarize article findings that reflect efficiencies in complying with these laws listed in ten four three o four. Ten four three o six says the public servant must then take action to comply with these physical management laws again listed in three o four are it staff ultimately will review that compliance or those corrective actions if the public service is now in compliance here shima sign in ethical summarizing the deficiencies and the corrective action that was taken in ten four three o seven if the public servant fails to comply or to respond within thirty days of the coach year's notice the committee may invite the public servant to appear before the committee and explain their lack of compliance and interestingly you'll know there's a provision in here I guess this kind of dates theirs but for publishing a notice to the public servant to show up in the local newspaper that part of the law might need to be updated to include the internet but anyway there's there's a provision for publishing legal notice to invite the public servant in ten fourth three o eight the public servant has another thirty days after a committee appearance to comply now here's here is where in ten four three oh nine where the committee can take a further step rather than just reading a finding if that public servant remains out of compliance the committee can notify the appropriate prosecuting attorney who is then charged with investigating what happened and reporting back to the committee so if the committees oversight wasn't enough to get the public servant's attention referring the matter to the prosecuting attorney could perhaps help and again this is a more formal process for conducting oversight nothing prevents you as you do now from asking a public servant to come and explain said about it findings but this gives you a process if you want to forgetting a prosecuting attorney involved. And it gives you a misdemeanor of penalty if somebody never does come into compliance so this is one way you can refer problems that come before you are at the second law I want to talk about is the uhm the local physical management responsibility act and that's going to start at fourteen forty seven no fourteen seventy seven one or one and that should be the second set of laws that you have uhm see the definitions in fourteen seventy seven one o two this law imposes duties on county municipal and school district executive officers and those positions are defined but again you get the point that this goes to local government not state government and then there's a list of laws that are incorporated much like in in the previous act some of these applied accounties others to municipalities and others still the school districts but again you can see those listed in fourteen seventy seven one oh two. As fourteen seventy seven one or three and one or four require these executive officers to investigate violations of these laws and take appropriate action they have to notify the officer employee who's who's guilty of any violation of what their findings are and then that officer employee has thirty days to take correct of action under fourteen seventy seven one or five if that person doesn't take corrective action within thirty days you're going to assume that they did what they did no angle he and that's going to be important here in a minute but assuming that they act and knowingly now again and how does this committee get involved will look at fourteen seventy seven one o six either the executive officer or this committee can ask a prosecuting attorney to investigate you are not required the committee is not required to wait on the executive officer to do anything this committee could ask the prosecuting attorney to get involved whenever it sees an audit finding so you you don't have to weigh it on the executive officer to do the investigation and give the notice of follow up with the commentary in that sort of thing if the prosecuting attorney fails to investigate then you can ask the attorney general to do some in fourteen seventy seven one or seven after the investigation either the prosecuting attorney or the ag can follow civil suit one o eight one o nine list the penalties damages cost in fees that can be imposed when an employee or an officer knowingly violates the law so again that's where that presumption of acting knowingly can come in to effect and then fourteen seventy seven one ten emphasises that this is a civil proceeding. At the third law is much like that local law the third laws night starts at nineteen one six or one it's the third set of laws that you have in front of you you see the applicable definitions in nineteen one six of three for our purposes note that these laws listed these all applied as state agencies not local governments so the second said that I gave you applies to local governments this one applies to state agencies again nineteen one six of five these are all civil proceedings under this act not criminal nineteen one six oh six and six o seven. Provide for an internal agency investigation uh in six o eight six o nine the department of finance and administration's secretary gets involved at some point uhm how does this committee get involved nineteen one sixteen the secretary of definite the legislative council or this committee may ask the achieved review the matter and determine if legal action is appropriate and again you can make that request independent of anything the secretary of the f n a does or anybody else does you can go straight to that request if the ag decides to get involved here she can bring a civil suit uhm six eleven and six twelve sets forth the damages and penalties and fees and costs that can be imposed now the kind of wrap up mr norman II don't remember gosh if we've made any referrals in the last sixteen or seventeen years it hasn't been more than a dozen I mean it it has not been that many uhm so you might ask for does this work well I would point you to the last hand out it's a single sheet it's some a copy of an article that printed off the internet from the southwest times record. In june of twenty fourteen the committee relied on nineteen one sixteen which is that last set of laws we talked about the third set to refer appear of audit reports to the agent and the ag was asked to review these reports and determined whether legal action was appropriate will attorney general dust to make daniel decided to bring an action there was an executive director of one of the agencies that had misused state credit card made a lot of personal charges in the ag file to complain against that at this point former employee now the age used a lot of theories of of liability conversion fraud breach of duty but he also relied on the state fiscal management responsibility act to argue that the official should be liable for damages and as you can see from the newspaper article low and behold it worked the ex employee paid back every dollar that they had spinner on that credit card contrary to law at that point the age he decided i've got what I needed and he dismissed the lawsuit but the state got its money back and perhaps as important here's an example for the rest of government that's paying attention to say that yet there can be some penalties for not complying with these laws uhm mister chairman that concludes my presentation i'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you mister those very informative committee do we have any questions look like looks like senator bryan irrecognized thank you thank you mystery I was the I was the slater that will ask for this presentation so and and I got these documents immediately after I asked that that request for this meeting so I had some time to go through them and so i'd like to do is just ask questions as I as I documented it and so I was going through the through the statutes but one one quick point of clarification the arkansas government compliance at that refers to all the other status well the others really refers to all the other statutory codes it's it's a criminal right it's a criminal so even though the other two and subsection fourteen and nineteen are civil that goes fall back on this as it has a criminal yes sir that's okay okay that's correct so I guess my first question is we'll start with the we'll start with them the. The arkansas government compliance act I guess my my question will start from and it's using all the texts would be knowingly so knowingly as we look back at not only what they want the other statute saver I can go through to go out documents here no only means that a person is aware should have been aware that his or her conduct will violate physical responsibility and management was I guess my question is if we work at it for the inpurposes of knowing leave or says a recklessly if a person knows that a lot and they just got lazy and I just didn't comply with the law and then audit finds out that they're not complying with the law in a correct within thirty days correct that was therefore they they are presumably to have not have known it was the law does that make sense it does but i'm you have the presumption if you don't act within that time frame but if you can't take advantage of the presumption because they did act you may have other evidence that you could prove knowingly with for example if there are if there is a if there's a pattern or a history of this employee having this particular problem so passed audit findings it's hard to argue that they acted that they didn't act knowingly this time even though they may have corrected it within the time frame given so you might still be able to prove knowingly without having to rely on that presumption okay and i'm going to stay in the humidity am I yield to represent a lunch term she's got an example maybe you're recognized thank you chairman we had the state armor that stole thirty eight thousand rounds of email and the state can attention record them the state police came and invest. Skate they turned it all over to audit everybody agreed and thirty six thousand rounds was recovered but it was obvious it was stolen nothing happened because of prosecutorial discretion at that something should have happened and this is the perfect example of. The prosecutor should have been removed if he couldn't handle this situation you run into mislines from that that constitutional provision that gives the prosecutors discretion about the charges they bring I mean that that that's an issue but there's more than one way to get a this if if a prosecutor doesn't want to bring it you have these other two laws at one of them that applies to state government folks maybe they don't want to bring a criminal charge but you could use that third set of laws we talked about to bring a civil charge and at least try to recover damages and cost and that sort of thing you know from from whomever the nice thing caught unquote nice about that is that it requires a lower standard of proof you're not talking about beyond a reasonable doubt you're talking about proponents of the evidence and so it's a little easier to try to recover damages if you've got the proof to stand up behind you but but yes you're right the prosecutors have some discretion and and that's a fact of life. Chairman gazaway uhm in this particular case on all the cases that we turn over we're turning over their evidence that something is already occurred in their choosing not to infect we publish a book every year of all the work that's been done and they just choose to shrug it off and to me I find that incredibly offensive it's a win and it's something that needs to be if if government doesn't do their job and we don't point it out and we just print it instead of stacked on itself somewhere then we're not doing our job. Well and I want to be fair to the prosecutors we we don't have. Our standard for reporting things to them is not beyond a reasonable doubt if we see some evidence we give it to him we don't try to we are don't try to figure out in tie or anything like that. They however are going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that somebody did something wrong so are standard for giving it over is way lower than their standard for getting a conviction and so in a lot of those cases I suspect that's going to be the issue they just they can't meet that higher standard but again there are alternatives in in you know for example if if you want it to make it easier or clear for example that the ag's office might bring some of these like dust to make daniel did and that one example bring some of these as civil charges will then you were lowering a burden of proof closer to what maybe we are able to give them and again if you can't bring the criminal charge you've got that other option but they're not yeah thank you chairman gas with central bright well i'll yield to senator johnson officer still on this subject okay senator johnson thank you mister chairman. Massure on the nineteen one six ten uh dealing with state agencies it brings the attorney generally in it the request of the auditor legislative council or the sector of the evening as well. In the end at most specifically addressed the instance that representative plans term discussed which is carried better sticking point for me as well is this something that this committee could request the ag too to review again since the prosecutor declined to prosecute it and again it's in a care about that particular case but also care about the larger issue here well i'll just let you respond obviously you're going to have to worry about the statute of limitations I mean i'm not sure what the statue would be but you know the clocks taking and at some point you're not going to be able to bring a civil claim that would be mainly concerned but if you're still within the statute then yes or you could refer it or you could refer it in the ag could determine whether the statute is run or not that's what they're therefore already that that's in the other other question I heard about in this head to do with some of the language and this if you want me to come back to this mister chairman that I have a a peripherally she is not directly related to the one directly related to stop here you may go ahead with it okay it has to do with the language about requiring the public servant too appear and you know as you know our committee is dealing with a couple of issues that you know mister then mister jones have shared with us some elected officials who chose not to appear and it is it goes appears to me that we're looking at your asticum if you don't show up then we'll support you to come and I guess if you violate the submeter there's some civil impossible even criminal sanctions for them in your nose our committee am I for saying that correctly yes sir as many factors during our time there's. There was a supreme court decision upholding a subpoena we'd issued a subpoena to a former city official that official did not show up we took a contempetation to the place county circuit court neblaske kind of circuit court agreed with us and found that official and continent and the supreme court affirmed that so we have law out there enforcing a legislative joint auditing well it was the legislative auditors subpeaner but yes but but case law is telling us there no longer being in that position is not a defiance to me now that it's opinion from this committee right that's right then answered my question thank you mister bright you're recognized thank you and i'll prefer spot my notes well what i'd like to gain out of this conversation and subsidiary conversations maybe some status story changes because I think the hammers exist they they prove that the hammer exists but but you know it's a twelve bounce hand we're not like to make it a twenty two out you know something will input a little grip on the on the handle for the analogies I like to use and in the construction but going back to the compliance government compliance act. And talking some senator johnson brought up do we have the authority to in these cases just a statue limitations because by time you you are it and have findings and bring it us I mean technically you could you could have left the age to see you are the city in july and then they currently august and then you're back there in july and maybe you get delayed and you're back in august and then you find that that theft occurred thirteen months ago and there's a year status in saturday limitations is there is that that we have an authority in code to to change or that time frame exists and i'm going to invite any of the other lawyers present to help me with it from but I believe it's still a legislative prerogative to set those statutes and limitations I don't I don't think amendment eighty has taken that away from the general assembly and made that a judicial matter could have researched that senator but I think it's still a legislative program okay so it's that's why i'm wondering it's kind of higher high on my priority in another question just why we're still in this is in in it's a response that's that often when we go through these in the in the subcommittees is finished responsibility versus subordinate action and so as a director as an agency head you you give that authority to a delegate and that delay get messes up but then that delegate says why I didn't know and supervisor says was that my responsibility so we're caught in this area of gray of which we don't know where to play the war which which is why we're human we made mistakes but in the next time when this when the same finding appears the same if the same players are insequence you're back to now i've corrected it you give me thirty days i've corrected it I still have i'm still not in that noin. Face so goes back to my original question with something a step further a wider net of recklessly could that be apply in the statute. You have different mental states that you have to prove to prove a crime there's there's negligently there's recklessly there's intentionally there's knowingly you you could lower the mental state in your example the fact that it's happened before though even again even if they correct it within time that second time around if it happened the first time in everybody said we got to fix this and this is how we're going to fix it you've got some evidence of no one like there but you know I obviously that's a policy judgment whether you want to lower that in and I don't know you know whether the the bonding agencies would have the the bond program would have some issue with that or there may be some other effects to think about if that's what you're going to do is lower the mental state required to but yes sir II think you could do that if you wanted to okay okay and then i'm gonna keep going until the chair pulls me back and just looking at the section three o five at the counter bill to get my accountability act just some some notations II kill I can see one so you've got you got these actions that are required by law they're not complained with the law in and see what states the legislature join out in committee may require a municipal office who is responsible for any deficiencies under such concerts some section a through ten relevant training courses by the arch of his belief legislative auditor other appropriate training programs I know obviously statutory authority but my questions are you know neighbors shell and then it just identifies me next ball instead of in our state or or county and so divisions are the state education all those other entities and then who's responsible for the deficiency. Um I i'm kind of looking at that whole statement saying it is probably never been not being done to the effectiveness of which it was created I don't it may have happened but I don't recall as referring anybody for where the committee referring anybody for additional training you'll notice that there was a reimbursement provisioning added you know the some concern about asking these folks from local governments that you know this small local government not their full time job you know they're going to well i'm not aware of any appropriation ever being made for that reimbursement either so no sir i'm I don't know that this one's ever been triggered so so as I just speak to the committee here that's one area that i'm i'm looking at changing and then maybe been adding the provision for a penalty of multi since it's if they don't attend the training just to make sure we're clear that they have to proceed with understanding the rules of a at a law and I will I will go now two section three o seven and it goes to the legal notice of invitation you can attach on you know as far as being published in the paper but and this at this body has authority to subpoena as that corrected that sir and so you know II i've attended like the city city county subcommittees and where they just they don't come they don't show up and so you know at some point I would like to see maybe the potential is changing that to they get an invite the first time in the subpoent of the second time and there is and there's penalties obviously for if you don't comply with the subpoena in the statute in statute um yes and then the last section three or nine says the legislative join out in committee so notify the respective prosecutor attorney of each public servant and the prosecuting attorney shocking duct. Uh an investigation desert is a presumptive it goes to the elected prosecuting attorney in that judicial district with the language it's in here I am a little check your own criminal law than civil law but yes sir I believe so if if if the issue arose in benthead it would need to go to the bent and county prosecuting a turn okay okay and so forth your time for anybody on ten for a move in the nineteen so I have just a couple of questions about a problem just been here send the bright that's okay yes so mr area you know when I look through the governmental comply to act and that seems to be the one that curious the criminal penalties is that right yes sir few things that can stand out to me and I want to just. Check a few things with the senator brian mentioned the statute limitations so I see and ten four three o three. A person who commits the offense of noncompliance well let's start there so we we when we talk about non compliance and we're setting that up as a criminal offence that's non compliance in with certain fiscal laws is that right yes and you've set those out that look like you know I asked kevin what those were looks like at the back of this pack at the chief handed out on the government compliance it kind of lists those things out county purchasing procedures sale of county property these would be the things that we're talking about not complying with is that right yes sir but note that they're actually listed in ten four three o four the list that i've given you all you've got is the code sections in ten four three or four the list I and it is well this is what this is about but yes her it's actually in law the ones that would be applied right absolutely yeah that's what I told cabinets that you were thinking ahead that's very good appreciate you including like a specific less there that's very helpful but what we see is when you go back to the criminal penalty section ten four three o three non compliance with one of those any one of those items that is listed in ten four three o four which you more specifically set out in the last page there. Can be a criminal charge and of course we know criminal charges can carry a whole host of consequences especially for public servants uh depending on what they are what the criminal charges. Now I suppose you know so to go back to support of senator bryant's questions on statutory limitations what is the statute of limitations on a class c misdemeanor because a classy misdemeanor from our recollection carries a maximum sentence of thirty days in jail in a same to recall that the statute of limitations was something similar like maybe thirty days from the date the offense was committed I think he and i'm shake your own criminal law I miss white who is more than qualified to be my success from may remember that as a former deputy proscuiting attorney. I don't know that I can answer it I don't have the recollection of the statute you want to talk in the mike so we get john record sorry and I hope miss white will forgive me for putting her on the spot is it on where you go immily why legislate about it frankly thank you sure mr chair I do not know exactly what the statute of limitations is for a sea misdemeanor my recollection however from being closer in this area the law than most in this room is that it may be beyond thirty days my recollection is is that for all misdemeanors it's up to one year and the accident wrong about that and we'll check that happily for the committee okay thank you and that so that was my question see misdemeanor is really the lowest. Misdemeanor offense that we recognize an arkansas law carries only maximum of thirty days in jail AB misdemeanor is just one class higher and I can't remember how much what the penalties are per be misdemeanor but it's a little more than a scene of course name is demeanor carries up to one year and in the county jail and up to I think maybe a twenty five hundred dollars fine or at least it used to be that may have been raised since then but okay miss why it tells me that's right of twenty five hundred dollars. And I guess my concern with all of this is when you start talking about criminal penalties for non compliance especially when you talk about when you look at what the list of these items are. You know we want to treat the offenders who truly have done something a greatest with with an appropriate sanction so if you've stolen thousands of dollars for example from a county or city I think we all would agree that that person should be treated harshly if you simply not complied with some some obscure portion of municipal law that may exist in some type of gray area you know we don't want to strain it now and swallow a camel and I think we do that many times here i've seen in audit over the years where someone who does something very minor we focus a lot of attention on and then we see people who do something that's just almost unconscionable and it's like it gets a pass and so my concern is as when you attach criminal penalties we don't want to i'd be concerned about attaching criminal penalties for non compliance for things it would be read up relatively minor and just a simple someone who failed to comply with you know relatively one of my trying to say here are relatively unserious affairs. And then not punish is harshly as we need to the people who do some things that we would consider to be a greatest so I think the question for us is an answer this uh you will how do we strike the appropriate balance there. In your opinion we have you've got options again one would be the mental state we were talking about a minute ago if you keep the mental state at knowingly these people that just make a make a mistake maybe negligence they're not covered by the out so you know you do have some mechanisms I would assume too a prosecutor who's his hard press to deal with all kinds of property crimes drug crimes that kind of thing too you would help here she would use their discretion not to punish somebody that that acted perhaps negligently or accidentally as opposed to somebody who acted knowingly are intentionally so there are different ways that you could you could you could address that issue the policy end of it but I don't have any disagreement with what you said that is obviously a judgement for the full body okay so thank you for that and I appreciate your response when you go back to the list of insists that are named in the governmental compliance act I mean you see several things like county purchasing procedures sale of county property. You know these these are things that routinely uh you see county and local officials make a mistake on it's not that you know anyone intended to do anything. Not that anyone intended to do anything nefarious it was just once again they didn't comply technically with the with the very strict requirements of the law they shouldn't have done it they're they're told that they should have done they recognize they should have done it they do their best in the future cannot do it again and I think that you know as often times what you encounter but technically I guess under this law and I understand that the minimal state must be proven knowingly but in almost like you said earlier that there's a provision that imputes the mental state of knowingly in certain circumstances which I have a little bit of concern with. Uhm so I guess my point is I mean wouldn't you agree that there a lot of things that we see from county and local governments where it would can technically be considered an act of non compliance but you know whether or not that should rise the level of someone facing criminal charges and hold into a criminal court. Uh you know that's really that's that's another matter when you would agree yes but in let me make this point to the the presumption of acting knowingly if I remember correctly is in the two laws dealing with that have civil penalty second and third sets that I gave you I don't I don't recall that this first set that has criminal penalties has that presumption of of acting knowingly if you don't do things within a particular period of time and I may have forgotten it but I don't think it does well that's good because I don't think you can presume a mental state in a criminal case but never the less alright for those those were the points that I wanted to make questions I want to have thank you for that center brian you're recognized just just to follow on that and and I skipped over it I didn't want to waste the committee's time but you know but a potential solution to your concern representative gaza is is maybe lost lost the public and a certain amount of funds so if it's over ten thousand dollars you know we we step that up to any into a felony and where it was under ten thousand maybe we do on classified mismaters and actually numerate you know what they go after this again III echo represent gasways fear that we're going to go after somebody that just honestly didn't know and then be too soft and somebody that did know and and chose to act agreed just let against the against the his people so with federal i'll be done and give it to the representative thank you thank you missure masters you know their study day window in the procedure that associated with their give an example lock in a county or series you may have heard these things going around for six months or a year. Before it actually takes place in that thirty day window that we're speaking about would that be after less you say the division of legislative already got involved in new something was wrong and would let me from the time that this person actually was brought up on some tap charges from the local level can you count and feel soon mister writes more like that second example in in the thirty day window and i'm a look at the local fiscal management responsibility act because I think that's what you're asking about local government that applies when the executive officer of that entity becomes aware of a problem and then they give the offending the allegedly offending officer employee notice in a chance to fix it that's where that thirty day window kicks in and that may or may not involve an audit finding that they become aware of so II it doesn't necessarily involve us if an executive officer they have that duty if they see a violation of one of those acts incorporated they have that duty to take action and try to fix it they give the person thirty days they give him notice that they've got thirty days to try to cure okay well let me ask you this in a situation where if it was the country judge or the mayor they didn't actually know that that was going on and it was not called until division of legislative already got involved would that thirty day window play from that point forward when division of legislative became involved with it I think if if an executive officer became in became aware of an audit finding. And then they notified the employee involved of a need to fix it that's when the thirty days would start but obviously that comes after the audit finding brings the issue to the executive officers attention thank you thank you miss chairman senator johnson thank you mister chairman of mister we talked some of that status limitations in various cases in what ideas would it be appropriate I shouldn't even ask you could any legislator introduce a bill that renovates these status limitations for this reason I know it's in the misdemander part of the code is not defining mister meaner and then we refer another place as to what to miss me but the the question I have has to do with when the statute tolls for example if there is a fancy committee or some kind of violation than you say well that's when the stage it told on the other hand we have municipalities that earth significantly behind shall I say mr chairman on their compliance with getting their audits done especially when they use a private firm to do the audit so if if let's say something has a three year stationary limitations and they are it's not completed and presented to our committee until that more than three years then anything it was found in the ethic that was long and three it's like it didn't happen then and I think that's a problem there may be we could correct that by simply uh correcting the the time when the statute tolls and it would that be an appropriate response to to that concern that I have where you could say is sort of a. In the case of some of these governmental errors will call him whether they were intentional or not but if there were errors that it would not toll until such time is it the clock wouldn't start running on the state limitations until we or the another responsible party was aware of it by the audit bit finding or being presented. I am. I am way at the edge of my expertise here senator I as I sit here I can't think of a reason why the general assembly couldn't provide their statute limitations begins to run x but I would have to do the research to be certain about that okay but it at least it's an open question that we we can resolve yes sir II think that's worth looking into okay and mister that's counter what i'm saying we should do because it's unique in the audit process in the way that we allow you know local governments to cannot do their own thing to a point and yeah you keep put these arbitrary timelines on where it cats us off from being able to correct problems that come up so I just will throw that out to to you in and to center wireless leadership maybe come back as a part of what it would package we will present it to fix these things and thank you thank you mister. Any other question of center bright I just like the to roll over and nineteen which is the state physical management responsibility and that's where we we use the word knowingly that's it's quite often they use throughout the throughou. Section six oh eight and it may be just cause that you know the inbox gets filled up but section you know this whole section within thirty days of expiration the time period for the officer employed correct I don't have immediate action agency so transfer to the secretary of the document containing summary of the violation cracked of action the secretary should review and either accept requests additional or impose correction action uhm between that in in subsection two or says quarterly the secretary should submit a summary of all violations to the governor of members of the general assemblances is this being done in how it's how does this get reported. Center I don't know if we are it for that II do not know the answer to there gave you if you would take that as an action item you know as as as i've been in leadership positions the more work you put on me the more and when i'm make sure my employees are doing what's responsibly doing and it seems like this being executive function to make sure that happened so I don't remember receiving one i'd ask a member that's been here while if they've ever received a quarterly report on what different aid found on the fiscal responsibility management loss and correct of action so I i'm i'm just there just come eyes as some that maybe we need to look at if it's a wall and we like it we should do it if not when maybe we need to strike it. I guess I would also go with section six oh nine as well sector remain posed so before secretary may impose additional corrective action or media action regarding public officers employees executive agencies a secretary shell conduct an investigation regarding any violation the public officer shall be notified him an opportunity for a hearing conducted by this sector regarding the violation then the secretary may impose oral written warnings suspension or termination so these these like I said II don't doubt that the hammer is there I just don't know that for using it effectively and getting the results that we want to from the law. And they might my last question is is is there any place in these codes where we can look at strict strict liability no surprise no sir I mean you could but but I don't think it exists III didn't see it in the brief search and I didn't really find it but you know it's strict liability to some point where there's an agency that's that's finding multiple again and against the and against and they're obviously choosing not to correct them in the tools that we have aren't having if nobody else family were strict liability in in the military it means if if I as a sergeant mister mccamanian officers who got fired so that that kind of resonates with me just to make sure that we have appropriate tools whether not we have the the legislative authority to do that to the executive branch I do not know but it'd be a question to her best so what that must cherry you thank you mystery have one other question or point so when we we talked a lot about the criminal penalties and the. Governmental compliance act but to your point earlier. I mean in many of these cases if prosecutor declines to file charges the statute limitations is ran whatever the case may be there is the fiscal management responsibility which allows the attorney general to follow lawsuit and to recover these fines looks like destinate daniel did that back in twenty fourteen in a particular case I would have the same question or concern that I have with regard to the criminal liability which is the statute limitations again do we know what the statute of limitations is for the attorney general to file a lawsuit to recover finds i'm going to assume it's the standard three years I don't see it anywhere in these code sections and therefore I would assume the catch all provision applies I have the complaint here with me but I don't remember a discussion of the statute limitations in that so i'm not certain senator I mean mister chair but II do think it's the I would guess that it's the three years but I would probably need to research that it I think you know we'd like to know that at some point if uh staff could provide us with some answers about the statute of limitations when they begin when they begin to ring us that three years from the date the offense is committed three years from the discovery uh you know you see they you say statutor limitations operate different ways in different context so some products liability cases for instance you don't know I think similar the point that senator brian represent debra made center johnson that many times you don't know that an offense has occurred in a product's liability case because it takes time for these things to manifest themselves. And similar to in a private you know an institute has a private audit for example you may not know that adapt is occurring because it's been done deceptively there's a private audit it's not reporting it and so the state no one was ever put on notice. We might look at trying to amend the statutes of invitations for cases like that but uh in certainly would want the attorney general have any authority all the authority that they need to try to recover fines in civil suite it appears that there's not going to be criminal charges brought so just my thoughts there any comments on that mister would point out from the complaint you know we worry about things dragging on too long apparently according to the complaint the defendant got the the credit card in march of twenty twelve it was suspended in march of twenty fourteen and the complaint was filed in september twenty fourteen so that may be unusually fast for state government happened pretty quickly in the statute obviously was not an issue there but again yes sir we we probably we do need to look into that and find out what that is our senator brian yeah just just to to follow on with where where the progression of this conversation could go next since it says it separate separate legalists that are body how how would we go about proofing potential changes to co through you know through an isp is that go through this body year does it go through one of the subcommittees of of joint body if I could mister chair this committee routinely offers legislation this committee has the right to do that on its own our rules provide that if we if we come up with a bill that the committee wants to offer the cochairs should carry that bill if they don't want to they can designate somebody else to do it but it's it's understood that this committee can sponsor draft direct us to draft whatever without necessarily involving anybody else now you may want to involve anybody else just to make sure you've got everyone's buying but this committee could could act if it wanted to. In that let's down through you know rotating through these monthly executive meetings just having continued conversations on presenting it as there's maybe this time we old business and we just keep it on the old business just to. Addresses in ponder and think about it before the twenty twenty five session ha- yes sir how are you thank you thank you mister. Looks like all the questions thank you mister eri. Next item on the agenda is other business which i'm told there is nine and so the next meeting of the executive committee will be held on february eighth twenty twenty two poor or at the call of the chair. And seeing no other business i'd take a motion to adjourn the emotion to adjourn in a second. All those in favor say this meeting is adjourned thank you very much.