Joint Performance Review (JPR)

Okay a members of we would it's time to get started. Representative Gazaway you having comments. Okay members we do not have the minutes that are prepared of yet will have to do those at the next meeting so as you all know we're here to hear testimony from individuals as it relates to Henderson state university our first the person on the list today will be Mr James Barnes Mr Barger you here. You can come around and appear to stable if you don't mind Sir. We appreciate just right there either either chair which everyone's best for you. If you don't mind just remain standing it's our policy here the reduce sworn testimony during this so if you don't mind the if you would to raise your right hand. And if you state your name employer imposition. Okay is your but no on that is. It is now okay if you don't mind would you react eight then James Barnes would be be a core and I'm the CEO of the company okay and if you don't mind keeping in the anti solemnly swear affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god I do thank you Sir we appreciate you being here today you have a seat. What the what you may have seen some of our other proceedings but what we've been doing is out I want to ask you some standard top questions of and then I will give you the opportunity to make a comment after that and they will kind of open it up to further questions from the other members of this committee okay so. Okay are you you're a former trustee of Henderson state is that correct correct okay do you know what. Your your term. Yeah I was January eighteenth January of eighteen through April of nineteen okay. Is that correct yes. I believe that's the exact dates January eighteen from to April nineteen okay alright and. Next question is is it what it what do you understand the responsibilities of trustee to be. The surviving the university that they're appointed to and make the best decisions they can with information about it okay and. In general and I know this is just a guess but how often did you communicate with the president of H. issue and I say the president I'd be talking about Mister Jones. and just sometimes it will go I will obviously want to I was on the board for fifteen months so I think I went to six or seven maybe even eight meetings I don't know the exact number I haven't counted them but so besides that may be on a monthly or bi monthly basis so that time period okay mean possibly one certainly could be could be yes for the more than once a month but I don't I don't I don't count that like say that's all were that's all we're after right here and then the same same question with the vice president of the age issue which was Mr pal Dr pale. Maybe over the course of fifteen months I'm not I had to interactions with him or conversation that I even know if that's an exact number but there was never really a lot of reason to talk to him okay and that would been outside of your of your meetings is that correct. Well yeah but I don't think I've talked to many any outside the media for less mistake on something we could talk to someone about the bookstore because we you know we have the bookstore contract right okay and did you ever speak to any other administrators or faculty of H. issue about any issues that may be going on. Over that time period speak any faculty other than just come across someone I'm on the way to meetings or not no not not specific that I can recall okay. You don't ever remember. Skews me you don't ever remember any of them of. Telling you about any discrepancies that they may know about or any concerns or anything like it. No Sir okay. But do you think that your provided enough information. A as a trustee of Henderson state. How the administrators. Well obviously in hindsight none of us think we're provide enough information to the there's a lot of financial things that came out after the fact in. You said yes for the questions that I may have heard all these proceedings isn't even though was a trustee I didn't watch all the proceedings of kind of heard about it second hand but as far as the amount of information we gather now we obviously we would like to know no from what I recall the tell to can you tell me exactly or correct me if I'm wrong the reason The Glenn Brett pal got in trouble this because there's a lot of accounting that was put on the books that was supposed to be like an accounts receivable that they didn't have a chance receives a put that the budget there for the budget was. Way off base is that is that there yes there was that is that is bad and Emory rob probably the best way would say there were some under statements in over statements and things of that nature on the financials so that was one thing that we've seen in and I'll ask you some other questions as it relates to those because like I say I'm just trying to get if you have any knowledge about any of that but it's it's that and then also student accounts those were allowed to reach of right hi balance and then to be even to exceed that so right now that's that's my understanding of it too so no we weren't provided that type of information to to understand those accounts receivable were not being paid or not even really expected to be paid. Okay and that's fair fair statement so. Right and then again this is where I was going with this the student accounts so were you ever aware while you were trust the of Henderson state that those of students were allowed to carry a balance of forty eight hundred dollars now this case you didn't know that students were allowed did you think that they were being allowed to carry any balance or did you know that. You know students were thank you may a lot of that while they're in their term for four years so as far as excess amount of debt that was not being collected now I had no idea that okay. So and this will be obvious what your answer this is so you all didn't discuss that in your any of your board members that you can recall or any any of your board meetings that you can recall at that I recall house okay. Financial statements while you're on the board and I heard you say you went to. Whatever you said CNN full yes six six eight leading something to that nature do you remember financial statements were those presented to the board whatever you were there we were given right a lot a link the information and even I'm member my recollection is that Brett help a lot of stuff on the slide show as we were attending those board meetings and they would scroll through and we would ask questions in. So yes we were given a lot of that information okay and I heard you say we've that due to a lot of that information and we were expected to log on sometimes prior to to review it. Okay. And I heard you say what my question is going to be did you say doctor paled purposes said Brett pal of course doctor Britt pale he's the one that would always present that. I believe so yes Sir okay. Eight and as we just talked about a second ago there was under statements in over statements on those financials that Arkansas legislative audit is has actually found now. During those meetings by Dr pallor doctor Jones or anyone else was there any ever any discussions. Or around that those made those financials may not be exactly right no they never talked about the. Okay also there was uh we've we've come to find out that Invoices were being hailed and possibly world stop possibly we've had people testify that checks were being cut and those checks are not being mailed out that they were actually being held in the vault. Prior to lake Audy leg audit finding some of that did you were you aware that they were not to. Paying any other invoices are or hold any checks or any of that anything to that nature now is the first I've heard of that okay today's the first you've heard of that yes okay that the say I guess it might be public knowledge but now it sounds like yes Sir yes read is but that's that's not holding checks in this and a Baltz sounds no had no idea okay. You understand why we're here then. The one right in it is yes. Okay. Who when did you actually learned the house serious Mabel at maybe H. issues financial condition was you have any recollection of man you're you're on the board right Obviously they. There is a point time toward the end of my ten year that they had a They're talking about they do the talking about. Changing the retirement plan for the love the faculty. That's that's when a like wow this is a big budget problem and you know all universities across America facing budget problem so I was like okay we can get through this that's they're making some changes and then I remember the decision was they were going to some type of Software package to the tune of six or seven hundred thousand dollars and they put that decision off and and basically ended up keeping the the faculty faculties at. Retirement in place the that's that's when I was like wow this is a you know real budget concern with better buckle down and gets gets serious but then you know enrollment this lady that runs and runs Roman recruitment she started You know just work in some some really good enrollment numbers so then shortly after that were like I was like all right because I'm a making a comment in one of the board meeting for up for I got got office like Bali some good news we're heading in the right direction but apparently those accounts that plan in. And Brett didn't tell us about were not really reflective of the truth financial position so I guess that's what I'm that's that was my knowledge of the problem if you will okay and I know how hard it is to remember back but do you know in in relation to the software and what you're talking about with the with the staff right there you know what an approximate time when that when that may have been happening. No means I should it's only fifteen months of those on the board but I would say it was it. In succession I would say it's toward the you know probably that toward the end of my tenure maybe fall of eighteen or. You know I guess a fall of eighteen rate as late as January of nineteen our I don't really know the exact time period okay alright was there any was there ever any discussions about cash balances in those decreasing decreasing that you remember any of the board meetings. I don't recall okay. All right and now I'm going to ask you some questions about some contracts with H. issue then I heard you say of course that the you had the bookstore in all fairness members and also to Mister Barnes we do have the an advisory opinion from D. F. and A were I believe that you must have presented it to them to make sure that it was okay that you would have the bookstore and the post office contract right so members you probably have that at your desk I'd ask the staff to to put that there so that you all would have it so Mister Barnes wanted you to know that our members do have that also as the one from Larry Walter on August of eighteen. It's from it is from Mister Walter is that the. The one I've got is always August ninth of two thousand eighteen okay yes that is the one one you're referring to yes Sir okay. All right so so that being said and since we've got that did did you ever personally and I'm not I'm just talking about you personally is James bars did your personally have any type of contract with Henderson state university. Not your company's iOS not serviceable name no I did not have any contracts with okay and as far as corporations are business organizations limited liability corporations any and all how about those did you ever have any contracts with a C. H. issue yes are so that right so the contracts of had with Henderson Chuck well to not we send my first bookstore contract in. It was Think of two thousand ten was for the first bookstore contract and then we did the mail room addendum in. Or get my dates correct the the mail room addendum was July of twenty fourteen. And then we did that those were under be be a court and then the other contract we did in fifteen was with the concerts Brandon have been in a construction company where they built the dorms and I was part of that corporation okay what what was the name of that corporation. what's I don't know something about probably has Huffman invite you you probably have a before you but I have been in Barnes or health barn or something to that degree or I can get you the exact name but I don't have it. No the exact corporation name but it was for the construction of the two dorms Henderson state university okay and that was in. Two thousand to two thousand fifteen I believe so yes Sir Kate and. So you were not on the board at that time no Sir. And that corporation right there or what it was in the do you know what it was with their corporation or an L. an escort corporation or LLC one of three okay and. Were you an officer of that yes I was I was fifty percent owner with Brandon okay so your feet a shareholder eighty percent shareholder but were you an actual officer were you president vice president secretary D. member any of that no I I'm basically all Brandon have been I've done you know it doesn't commercial contracts of the last seven to ten years and use the I don't I'm Brandon does a construction on the either the silent owner if you will and the investor okay. Back to the bookstore and the post office or or whatever it is how did how did you secure those contracts was was that put out as a competitive bid or do you know yes there are fees on all these all both of those things that had contracts with Henderson they have to go to our fees okay and some of these questions I'm asking is going to be for the is for the other board members because that's come in so we might as well just write out and get it out for like you for sure fire them all at once it might as well so you that's not saying you're not gonna get more on it but the but anyway we'll open it up with this so the do you do you recall that were put out as an or if the what we were there other people that it also turned in those those proposals. Yes Sir okay all it was the company on on campus in two thousand nine and ten prior to us getting the contract and probably Barnes noble also probably bit autumn negative in Texas book bid on the yes that others the others bid on these contracts all the time okay and then we'll go jump to the construction contracts same thing with the it. Did were were that was that done as an or if peer how is that done are iffy it was in our if the did do you remember if other people would bid on that also returned in or if the also yes Sir I'm sure they did I'm I'm that's not my core business bookstore business is what we have yes Sir but yes that was an RP and it was done there was in our if you then or if the I believe okay as for is that contract. You said it was to build which which which one was it to build the dorms dorms one down there near the cross of abuse football field than one up on the hill near Smith hall okay and. Were those built their bill okay and do you remember I guess you said it was in fifteen when did the construction actually when was it over. I should know that I know the deadline was like in August and I assume good in August of sixteen but don't quote me on that but it finished in August September you know one of them. finished you know before the other one so I think I could. I think it was in August and September of the following year okay there is usually they usually run about a fifteen month construction period. Or anywhere from ten to fifteen months I'm not a hundred percent sure on the scheduling all depends on the weather and rain but right and we've had some of. Testimony here I guess you could say that Were. There's been at least a comment or two were and I say here of some of A been outside of here I can't even remember but there's been some comment that there's possibly some subcontractors that have not yet been paid are you aware of that right Brandon Huffman and his companies that has done construction or I believe it's HVAC company that Brandon is in a little legal battle with I don't know if it that's wrapped up for still on going but what I hear I'm not running Brandon's business what I hear is the HVAC gentleman did Brandon road giving checks for multiple projects. then then he did not Kasich checks because later after the job is complete he sent change orders and you're in the construction business actually I thank is it are you I have been yes Sir okay so you understand a check most everybody understand the change order once I have a contract and then they before they do the work and send another bill they're supposed to send a communication but anyway so I think that's what Brandon. Know if there's anything other than that Mister Dickey but okay. All right. Are the me make make sure I understand are you still are you still involved in that corporation with this that the corporation specifically was for that project and there might have been another project that was done under the corporation's name but there's no going to be there will be no new projects done in that corporation okay so is that corporation been resolved to the secretary of state I don't know that for sure okay so. I can find out for you the. Okay do you mind sending that to I think you have staff because I think we've been back and forth on email this week trying to get your schedule of course and you mind sending that to to our staff so that we would have it the actual name whether or not it's been dissolved yes we have to write and if you are still a if if I'm an officer or not yes yes okay okay. Did any of your. Well it to finish. Okay I'm ready did any of your contracts did they ever raise any type of a conflict of interest concern from anybody else on the board while you were there. That you remember of the all those were all that work was completed well prior to me become a trustee in January of eighteen okay I mean there might have been you know. Talk about it talk about the project historically but just. But the meaning Hey Arnold once said that yeah but you know I had some friends in the construction business that you know they were upset they didn't get that job back in two thousand fifteen or whatever so but now there's no conflict interest because there in order for the a conflict I had been position part of the work being. The RP being awarded if that and again I was just on but if it whether nodded raised anything with any of the other board members while you were there if any of not that I know of okay and also as it relates to the post office in the bookstore was very very any talk about anything like that with any of the other board members while you were there none of the other board members okay fair enough how about the management or anybody like that. No one ever I resigned obviously the there's question about why resigned as and then it wasn't for anything to do with the with the conflict as Mr Walter one eliminated that concern. Right okay alright and those are all. For their answers all right thank you all right at this time what I have been DO did you did you want to say anything to the committee before I open it up to questions did you have any type of statement or did you think about it so well almost telling this whenever I come down I didn't bring a statement I graduated from Henderson ninety two and you know. After after twenty years and textbook business I started getting. More than downplay the foundation starts reaching out you know that I've been a big supporter of Henderson state up remote the bookstore on our own time and then it wasn't to fill the wasn't done good enough in my opinion so we redesigned it again under my own time it wasn't taken out of commissions or anything so you know Henderson bookstores kind of been my slacks that flagship bookstore with it was our first on campus bookstore that doctor Welsh gave me back in two thousand ten and as a alarm I wanted to make it the best one we could we've you know take pride in the bookstore and then I've been supporting Henderson financially with my time a bit on the college of business board and you know we supported them in. entrepreneurial competitions between over you and Henderson anyway it's just been something that I've taken the given back over the last decade and you know in the last couple years you know my resin that I have three teenagers the house and my teenagers one's going to colleges falling at two elderly or my mom passed last October that was one of the reasons I want to. Sign between kids parents and all the business interests I have is just you know you come on to the board of these good intentions and I did get a little dissent you know there's a little bit dissention amongst the board and all these other things that were going on as like you know it hurts me to resign but I want to resign so I don't really have the statement of that censuring that's by we appreciate you saying that. Okay at this time Representative Lowery. Europe Sir. Thank you thank you Mr chairman. We all do have a copy of the letter from Larry Walter About the bookstore the I guess so going back a little bit further in you mentioned that the construction contracted for the dorms took place before you were pointed to the board do you happen to recall. Not precisely but just range what the total value of that contract was for building the two dorms I didn't recall until today because I knew I'd be asked the question and I have it here via text Is there are two projects I think one was nine point four five million other was ten point two million. Okay so in excess of nineteen million dollars yes Sir. and let me give you the. Not so I think it's for Mister mark could you pull that Mike just a little closer yes Sir eight just you to forty and then ages two three hundred is what they referred to about so I guess that's five hundred forty beds I guess the. Five hundred forty rooms I guess you can ask that later but. I do know that whenever they did the construction. Brandon was like well this is like. So you know the the East West dorms that were done there back in fifteen years ago I think that was done even though this time it passed the price of the construction was like. By far the best best construction for the quality that they could be gotten. But anyway go ahead okay. And I'm assuming that the only reason that the bookstore. Which cited the and requesting the advisory pain opinion is because that was the only contract that was still on going when you were appointed to the board is that correct yes Sir. My concern that I have have race in previous meetings and will just present to you is that you know that just as we have legislative oversight I know that the executive branch has oversight responsibility when the met they make appointments and you know whether you get an advisory opinion signing off on that there's no conflict or not I would like to know if you had any conversations with either the governor or his staff prior to you being appoint the Anderson board where you clarified that you had won an ongoing contract but that you it also had a contract that was in nineteen million dollar contract with Anderson did that conversation ever take place not that a no of. What type of bedding did take place between the governor's office in you before you were pointed. That you're aware of. Right I don't know how they typically bet trustees you know I guess I would ask you that question how do how does the governor and the and that his staff know me but that trustees I don't recall of vetting process per se act up there there may have been one but I don't recall one no we never reached out to you and asked you questions or went through. Your own personal financials or anything to find out ahead of time with that there may be potential conflicts of interest not that I recall okay. Doubt you you've reference those two contracts but I I guess one that I would want some clarity on was that there was my understanding is that there is another contract with the company that you were affiliated with that took place when you were on the board and that is the portfolio student portfolio software packages what can you tell us about your relationship with that the that entity. I don't know exactly what you're referring to portfolio. Volume I don't own a company called portfolio you had no relationship at all with portfolio portfolio of no Sir okay. There's a company called ease in may that was kind of going to be that was talking the school business about I don't know any idea what portfolio miss. The information I have a support portfolio in which the student portfolio software program that later was then sold to the company campus you're not familiar with portfolio more campus I know what campuses but we didn't I never sell to come here campus no Sir okay. And this is the new What is the LMS type of. The company can you can you explain to the. Well I I know campus but has a much broader footprint a number Ellen portfolio ms which brought up underneath that but information being shared with me that you had a relationship with port fielding M. so you've clarified that you didn't so I just move on to the more I think the more critical element that we would want to ask about also you you said that you were not aware of the financial situations or the financial issues prior to the spring of nineteen when you came on in January of seventeen. Skews me January of eighteen of I think the next month the faculty Senate presented to the president and the board a vote of no confidence do you remember that the presentation which month was a that would have been February of eight of eighteen. And I realize you were brand new member of the board but the I remember some point there is a vote of no confidence it was right after the just talk about the retirement package being. Retirement thing so yes it was kind of felt like it was almost in yes I do remember that vote of confidence sometime during my tenure. Would you you testified earlier that the discussion about the retirement contract was the at the at the end of your I thought it was. Well there and I can see where you sleep I can see where you'd be confused because there were two votes of no confidence first one being February of eighteen where financial issues were referenced the concern about a three million dollar shortfall do you recall the conversation the discussion that took place about faculty Senate being concerned about the revelation that there were financial shortfalls that's so much so that they had actually been brought Brought forward by the higher learning commission which credits Henderson state and that there had been a finding a negative finding two years in a row because of Henderson's finances you were not aware. Don't recall any of those discussions. I'd I don't I was appointed in January of eighteen I don't know when the next meeting would have taken place it maybe that was in the in the intermodal recall that one no Sir okay so that is that is possible that there that beating you possibly didn't attend even though you've just been appointed right I'm not yes I don't I don't know up but I do remember one point a vote of no confidence and I didn't I don't remember to votes no confidence all right well I will go ahead and get back in the queue but thank you for answering my questions thank you Mr chair yes Sir just a question for me you'd mention another name what was it he soon or S. and what did you say East West halls that were your friend because he's a may yes ease may I'm sorry right up okay is is that a company that you had that did business with the H. issue what we're showing them that we were going to try to we were we shot at you ARE showed to Henderson we were going to try to roll out a product that was basically resume drop the are these may get really never getting traction anywhere and I don't I know we're going to try to utilize that it in on some of our college campuses but no there's never any transaction of any are of P. nature that I recall ever doing business with I know we wanted to. Grow that product but it kinda just never still circling never really took took roots did you ever receive any funds from H. issue as it relates to that. I don't know it was it was very small and it it would have been if it had hit the threshold in that had to do in our fee but it. If the I don't I don't know Sir okay find out. There is a very small well under up if it was it was think of what they are feeling at seven thousand dollars or I don't know the number for an RP but it's. I'll I'll find out if there is any payment on that I was a service so you're telling us that you think it would have been under seven thousand. I don't know I mean I don't and I do have a lot of businesses I'm not always running point on the mall I mean I can't be you know I'm saying okay I don't I was I'm not the I'm not a I'm not an active participant base we have a couple other employees that were owners of that I'm yes I don't know what my ownership position and was in that company or is not company but I don't run that company. Okay is there anybody else that it's a partner officer or. In that company that has any direct ties stage issue. No Sir okay. And let me just go ahead as this is okay so we we know about the post office in the bookstore and again I want to say that you do have the the okay from the department of finance administration here at the state on those two you had the contract all the dorms that was prior to you coming on the board then you had this other company. Have you said it is amazing may excuse me dropped or remember that these are may that possibly may of. Receive some funds from Henderson state university have you had any other companies that have received funds from Henderson state university. No Sir okay not that I can recall of a yeah I mean I do have a bunch of corporates button I would say with. A large degree of confidence no Sir. Okay. I prefer it is to be yes or no but I mean I was with I would I would say no I know you want to cover yourself so I'm not trying to be in writing but I know that in this is this going to be significant over two hundred dollars or something to that nature is that what you're trying to tell me or non right up right. Knows the answer all right that's great thank you. Senator Rapert you're up there. Thank you Mr chairman and ms chairman I've been monitoring this is I've coming and I had a meeting so I apologize that walking a little bit late but I have been listening in hopes that I don't have to ask anything it's already been asked Mister Morris thank you for coming and I just wanna say first of all. In in some ways we with I feel sorry sometimes when we get incoming information and we ask questions that sometimes can be very uncomfortable but it's not meant to be were just trying to find out information so thank you for coming and being here I was listening this and I I want to make sure and it's really can't carry and Mister chairman's questions just a little bit further. And if I miss this I apologize but. It sounds like the G. at the post office in the bookstore in easy may at. If if in fact there's ever any transaction of ease in may okay we do have a company call these and may okay and then Huffman right is that been stated okay and it so what I'm wanted to declare find again I've seen the the. Decision or the opinion from D. F. and A and all of that so I want to ask this question the right way and and hopefully I can get a feel for this so how many companies have you actually had a financial interest in. Indirect contracts or subcontracts. That benefited from work at U. C. H. issue excuse me or on the campus July ones that were mentioned okay issues that four of them. Well the another bookstore contract is with the postal contracts that's one beat A. K.. And then you had the construction contract with was the husband Barnes moderation or L. C. however whatever it technically is so those the two and east amaze the third unknown to me I'll find out you know we do because we was on the school of business it was something that they were going to try to utilize an. Free of charge or next to nothing was the was the deal that we were doing for service but so those would be the three. And that in an act that you know everybody knows I've never met you before obviously but I'm I'm all for doing business people can do business and that's great the the issue here is trying to find out with all of the smoke that we've seen down there you know some of the allegations come in and we're trying to figure out is there a problem or not and I realize with a person like you you've got several contracts you may not know what all of the folks that are running individual elements of the company may be doing and so we're trying to find that out I've one of the things we've got is that the Huffman entity did business under several other D. B. eighties and I've gotten direct information from someone that did work for many of those several different DB ace. So can you specify what you're referring to the center and that's the information coming from someone and and know specifically what are you trying what are you looking to I don't understand what I'm leading to is that I wanted to find out when you say that Huffman are there other entities underneath that that you're aware of that were executing contracts under different names the DBA names and you know you could have Joe's grading and you could have suse painting and you could have all these things is the D. B. eighties and they're out there executing contracts in different ways but it's ultimately Huffman. Yes there's only one contract the university that I'm aware of its with health and okay all right well someone down there feet and thought that there were several different DB eighties that the Huffman entity was was doing work under because they said they were subcontracting for them some just get a feel for that right I guess the book there's a difference at the help and has a contract the university of you happen to have subcontractors doing work for him but they're not going to have those contracted university is going to be from subcontractor let's say. If it is dry Waller then it would go that that would be they be doing work for I'm with you maybe I wasn't clear and what they're stating is that Hoffman had several other entities that we're doing business under DBAs doing business **** and again they may be wrong and so they don't have contracts with the university that I'm aware of and if they did I wasn't part of the okay well and so to to to finish up on that that particular point in again some of this be honest with you the parent a there's been some maybe some litigation going on with of men and some of the subcontractors are there any current still litigation going on there that's the one thing that we discuss the many goes with OKC gel HVAC company that okay they are a change order that we alluded to an that's that's the B. that's the only be for a ongoing one that I know of in the I don't run happens company personally as the but I do not I am privy to that ever get two questions and one going to yield back the you know the total value because you'd mentioned this thing nineteen million here do you know the total value from all these do it different areas of the contracts that you had while you were serving on the board and even after the board now. Your your question is what was done what's the total value of the contracts that you're aware of and you may not have that number today but the total value of economic benefit to to either come into Huffman the post office the textbook place and again don't know for sure easy may but of all those entities that you're receiving money from do you happen to know the total value of those. I don't you know what A gave that gel I gave center Lowery the number of the the value of the construction that was done of those two projects okay and on that project one of the things they keep telling us is that. It's it's it's the situation there that dormers pretty rough these days they act like that it's going to have to have attention sooner than later are there problems with the dorm now. Not that I know of not that you know of okay well I don't have any further questions at this time and again I do thank you for coming and we appreciate the opportunity for you to explain the situation I don't like people getting accused falsely and and some of the things that come in here obviously is definitely concerning and so it's our obligation to try to figure out what might be going on so thank you. Senator hammer. I thank god for sure but. Thank you Mr chair would you up just establish complaints make sure I'm on the right time line you didn't come on the board until after the dorms and the construction of the dorms were completed is that correct that's correct okay and I thought I heard you make a comment while goal A maybe it was missed didn't understand about maybe something that implied you that the quality of the dorms were not what would have been up to your standards as you alluded to that you read down a couple things because you didn't like the way they look to you paid for it on your own time that was referred to the bookstore remodel. Okay that's what that's we remodeled the bookstore multiple times back you know I guess I don't know how many years ago five six seven eight years ago would track we hired to design firm and paid them out of our own of. And then we that came in and the color is kinda not the best when we we did it again that was out of my own that was yes I'm up that's just to give back okay and worse the worse the books are located geographically on the. Campus property is in one of the dorms or where is it looks tortious right there in center campus beside the school business with no affiliation with the dorms at all right no okay and who did the work for you on the dorms or on the on the bookstore when you had it done do you member the G. R. one was a design firm and we pay them out of home. Personal money so seizure one was the design for okay and then with regards to you made a comment while go about to tension on the board and I kind of got the impression that might be one reason you stepped away what did I interpret that correctly. No it wasn't I mean obviously no one likes a room full of you know the. Of dissension but that that really you know if if everything else would have been normal my life that's just part of board you know you got to you got to have something have conflict to get to the best resolution so. Yeah there's iron sharpens iron and then there's just dissension because people are going different directions do you do you member what or in your opinion if you don't mind sharing what do you think attributed to the tension or the DYS functionality of the board at the time what were they what were the main issues they were having all Jett. I mean. I guess you their support the schools path it's going on or you don't and so there's a couple that usually were. You know not supportive of. The ministration and others were kind of hoping that this path is going the right way and roll is going up obviously enrollment is every universities you know number one. Concern on one of the number one concern so we we that I think that was the and the other dissension part was the the cop plans contracts so. That was Your question was what were the points of the dissension that the question that's question yeah just trying to multiple points I guess it's but it seems like there is either supporting supporting the mission in the where the university was headed with the information they had or just didn't like the administration in general so. That wasn't always the case that the other side and always like administration it seems like it was use a more of a. You know but like you said are sharpens iron so you that think everybody's heart was in the right place I just wanted to get the better better the better place and better results in act in the best interest of Henderson's what we're all trying to do in hindsight obviously if we had those numbers because of. Met a lot quicker actions but. Okay and when did you step off the board April nineteen which was before the rest the board found out about of the student debt is that correct so you had no knowledge of the student debt when you left right no Sir okay and did you ever. When you were there on the term that you're on the board did you ever participate in decisions relating to any policy or was the discussion of the practices of the administration ever discussed during your time that you're on the board. I'll see concerning student debtors policy in general I mean policy in general just did you have any discussions about particular policies or was that ever brought up. And there's a wide variety of conversations happen in policies that mean of the there's tons of tons of. Talking points there and you know a dozen board meetings and policies are always gonna be some of the talking points so I guess I'd have to have more specific question about what policies are being discussed yes there were policies discussed but were they related to. What okay so alleged Christian beat so do you remember a specific discussion about policy related to student debt no Sir okay alright thank you thank you senator senator rice. Thank you Mr. Board FOR should you being here today So like with with the many things that you're in of did you have prior board service on other boards. No state boards I mean I was on the fund for Arkansas. Board FOR once upon a time to. The other twenty other business border bike boards or any thing no. The something that's been. Brought up by the other trustees was the. Somewhat. I guess I might just say odd but the different financials presented by Mr pile. in you alluded something to his presentations where the more presentations of where we go one where we want to go and get to did you ever see any hard financials that you would normally see. For the something like that institution are an organization where you could actually look at a financial tell what it was saying did you ever see any that or did you just see presentations it. Probably both I think we're given the numbers prior to we look good log onto a portal and those numbers would be there and you know. Okay I'm I have a CFO from accounting whether county teams you know those we know what the numbers mean but you know like you said it's the numbers are there but what is less you're the person responsible for those numbers then only you the only that person really knows to see the financials not use presentations you so printed financials that that said we're we're doing okay we're in the black may not have a lot access but. The best of my knowledge we could log in the portal we did see some numbers prior to the meetings I don't that those numbers weren't Representative and they weren't built like the right Asterix if you will work on the presentations or the numbers that you log on to C. right okay concerning Mister Pyle. A do you believe that at Mr pile purposely misled the trustees in the financials that were presented to you as a board member. I can't answer that question I don't know is into you feel like you were presented correct information. you know if you give information. It's kinda like I have I have some businesses at some point you have to write off that debt so no we were presented with the information that this percentage of this debt is going to probably be written off that's the that's the that's the big Astrid right because if you have an accounts receivable but you know you're only going to receive thirty percent of it then know what in receive the right information but I don't I don't have I'm not in the position to to. Two I would grant would you agree that if you were given figures it said you're gonna have about a twenty thousand dollar in the black and you end up forty five million dollars in debt something's bad wrong had wrong it's it's not a huge you don't you don't. That alone the finance person that presented. I soon enough thank you assume he knows Assuming new. That all that that wasn't one can be collected so if he if he was in that position he wasn't forthcoming with the right information so I mean he should of whether he's with what I don't know it like I said what your original question was do I believe in my heart of hearts I don't know but if if that guy he hello was Britain's position. Mr chairs staff may have the I know it came from B. you a few years prior I don't think he was even in this position a very long time but I would hope that he would eventually saw a trend of bad that not being received in the new make you you do realize the qualifications that that the claims and supposedly does have right yes man and the the level that he was that Are you questioning whether he knew. With this qualifications what we're all saying you shouldn't there and in yet he was also one along with doctor Jones that evidently okayed excessive. Debt we we had testimony I keep going back to this one of our colleagues here that testified. Many years ago that he couldn't get in because he had a three dollar parking ticket. We go to what was it forty seven forty eight hundred and then we find out there's people that got over ten thousand if you have a more or less let go in in do not take the doctor palace in doctor Jones knew that. The I would I would suspect that they that they probably did within that you would pretty much like that the debt. That finally came out that they would know to with the fact that. I would think that yes I would. A would hope that you would like this I I know there's conclusion Gee you that you're not going to feel comfortable sign wit when was your first relationship with with the doctor gland Jones when did you first know him. Person knew him relation when I came when he came present on campus you know we we did graduate Henderson state the same year okay so you were familiar with them then the I was I've never really had any we weren't friends with this new new each other right and you testified that you were familiar Dr Welsh back to the other in and and and work with them. I didn't hear Senator Rapert I ask this question and since I when he had to leave the other day I ask. Other people and and If I can find it here real quick error or remember. Did did do you know of any. Board member are executive. That profited financially outside of what's been discussed this morning we discuss some is the day you've explained we've got the letter from Mister Walters now but to your knowledge did a current or former board member H. issue executive benefit financially from spending it H. issue or did anyone benefit financially from business center so jaded with the university project and on you I'll say outside of what we discuss is more. You do not most checking your head not right now Sir okay this I ask that to others from being consistent thank you thank you Mr yes Sir. Absent a rack you have a question Sir. Just have one question Sir Sir you know on the contracts that actually went through as far as the dorms and The bookstore in all those different different entities. You know a where they seal B. as. That came through on that hi how did that work I believe there's. Board bids I don't know I mean I'm talking about this bookstores are usually scored as far as because we go against Barnes and noble and followed on bids all all the time in the C. scored by a committee so far as the the construction bids I don't know how those were determined. Usually you have she'll be ads that come through and then you don't always take the lowest bid. But. Still it that there's some type of. Either a border. Executive that would look over those be is. To find out if if it was the quality be at or if it was always be at best be it but I just wonder if you know. How that was handled is forced the bidding process for the contract. I don't know how it was handled with first well like I said the books or contractor use the scored on a point system by a committee and you have to ask the Henderson representatives of how that was handled there so we don't know about how the B. it's actually came and they would just county screens or something I don't like I said I don't I'm not of employee Henderson so the bids would go to Henderson and then they will did I don't and I'm not the I'm not the person that did the I did present the numbers for happen and company so I don't know that we we can get that represented right think earlier he thought that it possibly Maddox been through an RFP okay so we're not a hundred percent sure but right Arkansas are working or that queue in our fee yes Sir. It would have been either either lower probably so you would. Okay okay but we we can we can look into that a little bit deeper thank you Sir yes Sir thank you Mr. Senator mark Johnson euro Sir. Thank you Mr chairman of Mister Barnes I appreciate you coming today and putting yourself on the hot seat of I'm. I have read the letter from secretary Walter that to address the potential conflict of interest in while I don't necessarily completely agree with all of his analysis I realize that that's what you operated under and that was the advice you were given and so I have to give you the benefit of the doubt on that and course you recognize that the reason we're here and have been here for the previous two Fridays and and but well before that looking at this is because. both you and your colleagues on the board and and all of us as legislators were painted this you know nothing to worry about down here in Arkadelphia everything's okay then all the sudden the bottom kind of fell out and we're looking at systemic issues that certainly relate to to Henderson state university but also could relate to any other higher education institution of the state because there's a. Concern that I have a disconnect because of a I think erroneous but none the less an interpretation of amendment thirty three of the Arkansas constitution that supposedly sets up all these university boards as as independent of certain other governmental Agencies including the General Assembly and and and and the governor once he's made appointments I think that that's really erroneous and we're looking at that but I want to try to focus little more on the big picture and and you as a businessman I obviously have experience in this. you've already testified that a lot of the issues of come to light that are of concern to us the not just the the level of the student debt. the Casterton accounts I should say which yeah we can decide whether that's an asset or liability but clearly on on from an accounting standpoint it was treated as an asset and and I receivable and you've already testified that that was probably very Heironeous to at least treat a hundred percent of whatever that figure was as a receivable which even in a a really good time probably wouldn't have been in. I'm just I'm trying to get into to from your perspective. What did you see right up until annual the all this stuff came down right before right after you departed the board did you recognize any of signs of a problem in this regard coming and if not how do you perceive the. The actions or arm by one partly the in actions by doctor Pallin doctor Jones in a leading the board know what really was going on do you have a perspective you could share on that. Yes it's I think someone alluded to earlier it's sad that they didn't DO pass I might that yes that might just a little closer were and are a little bit of trouble DO start sorry Yeah it said that they didn't. Have the foresight to represent that that that wasn't going to be under percent collected I don't know if it was aging over a year I don't know the how old that that was that like I said second go if you don't if you don't collect the dead after certain time period it should be written off that should all be a receivable because at some point it's a bad on collectible debt so your question was well it is seeing this as a perspective of a board member and again I'm trying to look is systemic problem of and I think we could all stipulate there's a lack of communication but it could be one of those you know you might you didn't did you I did not mean to imply what you inferred kind of thing but but from a factual standpoint would it be fair to say that you feel like they. Failed to share. And I say they I mean doctor Johnson Dr pal failed to share what was really going on financially at the university with the board either individually or collectively. Yes they should have share that information for sure and why didn't a is the question did they think they were going to collected that they think they're gonna make up was what someone mentioned a minute ago but regardless of the fact there were some they should have seen that coming and my follow up question if I could Mr chair this will be my last one. At and I'm I'm directing this to you because you're here but I really am actually directing it to any and all of the board members during this period of time do you feel that the board collectively I'm not picking on you personally but as a board member in your Fishel capacity do you feel that they failed to do their duty and giving you a true situation of either the the actual sich problem financially or the threat of a problem financial. I feel like they as you know see if those responsible for seeing all that information and refer reporting it to the the president and the board so and. And yes I feel like it was it issued in the the largest sound the long before that correct thank you very much for your comments thank you for appearing today March thank you Mr chair yes Sir. Representative Lowery. Thank you Mr chair. I know the. It's a it's appeared at least to me that that in some cases we are probably chasing rabbit holes related to contracts that you had or maybe didn't have or whatever but I hope you can appreciate that will what we're trying to find out it is to get some understanding of why and and same kind of questions were asked of the of the board members where you're at the last meeting of why that there would why there might have been on the part of anyone trustee. A lack of. Intellectual curiosity or fiduciary Cup curiosity or whatever to ask you about various reports that had come through whether it was a vote of no confidence by the faculty Senate whether it would have been a bad finding by the higher learning commission which ultimately leads to accreditation woes for university so I guess the question I want to ask is in you just you just actually reference this that there's a certain responsibility the CFO has to provide information to the president and to the board about financial status. Question I have for you is a in the end I know hindsight's twenty twenty and you've given us some very good it inside in being able to look back on these things but do you feel like that there was a failing on the part of president Jones. In addressing issues like one the vote of no confidence which I have a copy of it in the in the very first one actually called for the action various actions one of which would have been to have dismissed Brett pal. it would if just also change the contract of doctor Jones but it would have asked for the dismissal of several different personnel. Do you feel like you and you can use your hind site to view point here do you feel like it president Jones let down the board in terms of. Giving giving the larger picture of where Henderson stood financially. I don't know how the student how much communication we had with Brett pal to get those numbers No CEOs and presidents have a lot of different like different things are responsible for an. Every every CO has a different strength some CEOs are prior CFO so obviously they would be more in tune with the balance sheet in the accounts receivable so. You know CEOs responsible for getting the answers from a CFO so you know we're all one to we're all one the. Say what the heck are all we're all one the know what had happened down there and why what why did it get to this battle position prior to an obviously those two individuals are in charge of the ones that are getting All the all the blame and I and it's probably you know I guess I I didn't I heard land broke down and cried and some was testimony I haven't listened I didn't watch it you know I know they feel terrible for what they did and or what I did with this and see what they did what happened on their watch what what the obviously it's was unintentional but the information was there at their fingertips if they if they were if they were privy to it are knowledgeable or saw where the ship was going I can't see inside the their review mayor brain so I don't I don't know center Representative Lowery but you would like to think that I'm sure Glenn hold himself responsables under regard right he's been here testifying and I know Brett pal but I don't I didn't know that things about the checks being in the vault until today and anyway all that stuff is. We're all drawn our own conclusions right would right. Do you do you remember. President Jones ever reporting to the board. About the downgrading of the bond rating for Henderson state. When did that happen. I think it happened several times but I believe at least at least one of the down the downgrades would have occurred during the time that you were on the board right I do remember breast speaking to something about how all the accounting is changed now how they had a book something differently that's really not I don't I do remember some discussion about. The balance sheet how anyway I have to go back and review the review all the the meetings I went to but yeah Brett had some conversations about how the change accounting and how certain things are having to be booked present day verses anywhere I don't know the specifics on see if I'm on the CFO. We'll it in in you've already testified in giving us your background given that your business affiliations and you know we see a lot of times where financial. Maybe school districts have been placed in a fiscal distress and the school board they didn't have any school board members that had financial responsibilities they they were just members of the community but we've heard a number of board members for Henderson that receive CPA's. you certainly have a very strong financial understanding with all the different affiliations that you have your bookstore you mention the Henderson state bookstore was your flagship but you actually contract to run bookstores all over the country so you have that kind of financial and fiscal experience as well so I guess are my curiosity in our curiosity is how could such an accomplished board. Really miss the very substantial and significant red flag some of which were brought to the board by the faculty and staff of Henderson do you remember a conversation where when the voted no confidence was presented where faculty and staff and even members of the community wanted to address the board and they were denied the right to do so. And every hearing. Faculty and staff can addressed the board as far as a no because they're in the room with the with with us I don't remember anyone being denied that if you say it happened what did they ever get to address the board who is that the fact that you said you said that they were there present they are present good good question I don't know how old the I guess they could get on the docket and address the board anytime they want to maybe have to do it prior I don't know if it's in I don't I was on the board short time I don't know if the if there's ever at some point during the meeting like do we ever open this up for public commentary or you have to get on the docket to speak I assume they can always get on the dock if they want to be right so you're not so you're not sure so let's. A and and I guess I've allowed is on this back in force of will and that let me just just say that's been one of the concerns that we have is that while a lot number of universities have had specific policies related to a comment period Henderson was woefully lacking in policies especially were related to being able to address the board so thank you thank you Mr chair yes Sir. Alright members we have. For more they're showing up right now and then we have some other other witnesses I just again I don't care how late we stay I just wanna let her body no so. Okay now Senator Clark Europe Sir. You'll be over on your left Mister ball. Thank you Mr chair. The as the previous two days as you know up in pretty quiet center Johnson race and center and represented Lowery raise some questions. That I'd like to follow up on that I really wish I had asked some others. You're looking at the CFO. And looking at the administrator you were there. The student debt one large. Of because debt as was previously brought up and discussed. Has a shelf life. And. Do you your personal opinion. Did the do you think the CFO understood. The seriousness of the debt and for the and how the debt should have been counted whether it should have been counted as an asset. Or it should have been. Partially written off and how much of it should have been written all. And and S. as a businessman who deals with his own that and we also know where he stands all the time whether. What a because I don't I can't you know I will be honest with myself I'm not ever going to get that and and even to the point. Whether it's worth going to court on. Of. So do you think he had an understanding. That's what I mentioned a minute ago but I know we came from B. you I don't know how many years you worked there if if I was the president going forward I would ask for accounts receivable and categories no by age no and but as a general rule we all know the student's rack up a tremendous amount of debt when they go to college so I would assume. Hello was brought there three years four years two years I don't know He should have a better understanding of the dead you could look historically if it was suppose mounting more every year anyway I don't I don't know what breath I don't know how we solve that line item in his mind I don't know how he thought about it so I can't answer it but you have to do the breath probably should absolutely let me yes is what role did the board have if you don't know whether he understood that or not what role did the board have in. I have in the hiring of a CFO. Because that's something a CFO. Should know yes. Amend so that I mean there's people that we hired our businesses way below a CFO that are supposed to understand that right Brett was the I believe it was there when I got there on the board so I don't know what role the trustees have in hiring individual positions okay I'm just again because I'm proud to because my question is. Did they know. And. And and was two different people did they know that they had this problem and then if they did. If they did know what in the communicates within the sector because back to to doctor Jones. And I can understand an administrator none of the administrators there are some. College house cool that are just the sharpest financial people you'll ever meet a date they all very summer good everything some are really good at the classroom education summer really good of personnel summer good financial and I run into a few that knew nothing about finances and it runs into a problem yes we need a good you better have a good CFO so do you think doctor Jones understood. I don't know about that I don't I don't know you know. I can't answer what doctor Jones knew or didn't know. Let me go down further. I thought we were told last week I'm almost positive we were told. And I know I was told in an email. That. The board was aware of the no confidence vote for doctor Jones. By the faculty is that correct my correct on that yes. One. Thank you for Monday you you were here last week when I revealed that. I consider doctor does be a good friend. But. And so I would have a hard time setting that aside but in my duties and what I do I either do my job or don't do my job. Why did you wanna look into that and let me preface before you answer that with you know I've been I've run with the popular kids I've been the outside agitator it you know a center and and run it with the public kids is fun but I usually end up with the minority who says we have to you know that we have to look into these things this looks like it would be important why did John a look into that. The vote of confidence in. I think we did look into it we we know we Henderson was. you know the they were. The budget went whenever you say take somebody's retirement away. They're gonna be agitated and irritated with with the president and that's kind of when we so the budget I think because the no I mean the retirement but I don't I'm not I'm I'm just telling you opinion I think because they took the retirement away they almost said with their Hey let's I don't have any confidence got the schools finances are in. you know disarray or it's it's not where they need to be so we you know we had address that and to is that all your phone. Was the the retirement that's the only thing you found and then confident. When someone does no confidence I don't think they put Asterix about why they have no confidence but we're told that you're looking into it right you're looking into its not just to vote it's looking into it. Right now there was not a meeting with the faculty to hear everyone's grievances. Okay and. The. In the A bill finish Mr chair. This policy. June th. About. Employees not talking to the board. I'm not sure when that came up. We did hear that last week right. Well I don't I don't know that it was policy but there has been some of the statements it said that possibly the administrator what we heard more than one statement last week from trustees that that there was a policy put in place at some point that employees were not supposed to speak to the board do you know anything about that. So the of now you're telling me the the this ages you put a policy out for the employees not speak to the board that isn't seen those saying yes someone got a specific to say that is if employee spoke to the board that they had to turn it on. I a report of what they spoke to the board about. You have not hurt I've not heard of the and if your if your I. see looking to me center court what I remember is that there's been some testimony that it may have been the practice of the administration that the employees do not talk to the board members without going through them first so I think as far as the word policy and practice I think there may have been a practice so rude the administration well I I think it'll show if we go back to the record that the memory was that that there was a point it wasn't always but there was a point and it was probably after the no confidence vote. That there there was a practice. That they were not spin ploys were not supposed to speak to board members and if they did I know somebody testified that if they did they were supposed to fill out a report as to what they spoke to the board members about and that that. Of that even they talk about it they ran into on somewhere if they were friends it was kind of uncomfortable and so you are aware that. No. Because I you know had question because you know I've had that here at the capitol were more than once were employees were ordered not to talk to me and that always raises a red flag Argo just the opposite right when somebody's order not to talk to me up of I start to get into what the problem might be thank you Mr Barnes. Thank you Mr chair yes Sir thank you Senator Clark Senator Irvin. Thank you thank you for being here and taken all this time to speak with us are really appreciate that and. And I have missed the last two meetings not apologize for for that but my question to you is Azam a member of the board of trustees were were there ever when a when a vacancy came off the board or anything like that did you feel like that was really directed by kind of to add the president wanted to serve on the board was there. Mean politics are always a play on who gets to sit on these boards of trustees right we we we all kinda know that but was there any state efforts to hand pick people. Efforts by the president or the chance for or those that are. Not that no one whenever I resigned as of what met with the governor and told I was resigning and then. I don't know how the policy I don't know who wrecked represent recommends the next board truck board of trustees I don't know that see I don't know how that all. The decisions made it's above my. A great if you will right but when you came on initially was did you have conversations that somebody suggest you applied to become a board a trustee or I may have missed that she may have already answered that question but not have an answer that question I think between I don't know how that process works and I don't know if Linda Hursley for you just describe the process for you Clin set up a book it's goes back to seventeen I guess you know Glen and the governor both Glenn Jones okay. I don't know if there is a question I don't member I don't know if he asked me if I would like to be a trustee or even know how that went down to the governor the governor of the month does he recommend to the governor and the governor record I'm just asking personally one with your situation I think it happens differently in different circumstances but personally so Glyn Johns and his position at that time was. He was president and seventeen and then then the governor and his office you know has me fill out paperwork and then get appointed the position and then it's all Goshen there right so okay and then the what did there was there ever any time as to the student that conversation did y'all ever have any like. Lengthy discussions about that particular issue no was so wish you would have right. Does that I don't I don't know if that right so I mean just curious did you was ever mentions was there ever. Shot at that Tino this is happening and. Do we know was there any and and this may be a question for audit but was there any ever drill down as to how much money the students that were carrying the dat received in grant funding Pell grants or scholarships or anything else. And if that was was applied or not applied to that debt. Those discussions never got that granular at all. Okay and then the last question I have is when you resigns could you just kind of tell us you know what led to that personally and how that conversation went with the governor. Yeah I went I think I emailed a man. January of nineteen irv eight of nineteen and then. Then officially. Resigned in April but I must you know I have a lot going on in like I said a daughter going to college in April August hopefully someone we start back and so the main reason he resigned was just because you were busy business parents my mom died in October and. Is this parents and kids and you know a a I still want to support Henderson and still support Anderson but I just didn't have those extra hours okay. Right thank you. Thank you senator. Senator Clark I'm trying to get to answer your question I want to find out if that was the actual board policy because there's been some talk that it may be so I'm I'm checking into that so we'll find out for the meeting. Yes Sir if you wanna go ahead if you have a. You should be on. She on which I think she turned me on a. Air if you hold on just a second Representative bring. You get the green button Senator Clark it should come on now. I'm sorry. Try the yellow. There we go the bill it's. As I recall now it was the of I forgot this what was put through the testimony we heard was it was the only policies the ever passed more policy passed under of doctor what doctor Jones was there but if you'll go back and find that I would appreciate your that's for try because I'm on a we'll try to get that for you even before the meeting today so we're talking on that because if that's the case that does raise a couple more questions okay thank you Sir thank you. Representative Springer Europe ma'am. Good morning thank you Mr chair. Mister Barnes. I'm choice Springer and I am a Henderson alumni go release is good to have you here thanks I think I have just two questions for you. My first question is during the time that you were on the board isn't it true that general counsel miss Nebo the bone I believe is her name was that of those board meetings as well she participated at those would meet his did she not. Blue shoes present and those board meeting just ma'am okay and then my second question is who had the responsibility for the development of those financial reports that ARE in at issue here was the doctor Jones of was the doctor pal. Dr thank you. Thank you ma'am. A members as all the that's all the questions I say for you Mr Barnes so understand I heard Senator Clark say might would have some more but we have to get that information so but will try to we'll try to work on that we do appreciate you being here and coming before us to testify like so as some of the other members of told you were just gathering information that's what the duty in job of this committee is and that's what that's process were in so thank you all yes Sir thank you. Okay at this time the next. Person we have on the agenda is Mister four weeks miss weeks are you here. You can come forward if you don't mind ma'am. Amos Kneebone you're going to be there just like you were with the other employees is that correct yes Sir okay. Are you ma'am. Good if you if you would please raise your right hand and if you ask me if you would a state your name employer imposition. Would you press would you press that button. The. I should tell you to do that that was my fault so if you you can be a start over okay four weeks Henderson state university assistant to the president okay into someplace where firm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god heading okay thank you you all can have a seat again if you want to just go ahead and state your name of miss the bone in your position so we'll have that as a for the record. I mean Laney bone on the acting president of Henderson state university okay thank you ma'am. All right miss Weekes I don't know if you watched any of the other testimony or or what and seen how we've kind of done it again I tell everybody the same thing it will give you some standard questions of that will allow you to make a statement if you want to and then the other members they'll ask you some questions also so. Hey and I think you've already told us is but what what office did you work in during the time that is in question here the president's office okay are you still doing that now I am okay and how long have you been doing that. Since two thousand one nineteen years okay and what are what are your duties. They very. The judge the job description says they areas as the assignment of the president very I do the present scheduling I said meetings I It can change from day to day. one thing I would like to say is that through the five presidents I work for an my job is signs Senate change each time a new president comes in they they want me to do different things but the one thing that state has stayed constant is that I am the liaison to the board of trustees. Okay and during a doctor Jones tenure with that with that been the same that time okay and you've heard what you've heard everything I sing this going out as far as the financial statements the student counts the. Checks invoices are you aware of those conversations that we've had I am okay I want to ask you some questions and were in regards to those Kate as you probably heard there was a a forty eight hundred dollar amount that the students were allowed to to have a is there debt were you aware of that I was not okay. When did you become aware of it. A when all this blew up last year okay. So never any discussions with you and the president in regards guards to that debt. No. You have a thought back and tried remember and. The president had Weekly meetings with his executive council And they had. Many conversations. It is possible it was mentioned but not to the point that. They went in depth with it that really caught my attention So I can't say with all certainty but I I don't recall. Are you a member of the Executive Council are you are all you're always there soon whenever that was going on I was okay who sat on what you would consider that executive council can you. Name those for me there was an was the president vice president so and vice president for university advancement vice president finance administration vice president FOR student services fell Can you give me names at the time that I worried question about here at the time it would have been during during doctor pal doctor Jones as to what I'm asking about to pal and. Jennifer Boyette. Brad Patterson came in I think an eighteen so he was there for part of that. And the P.. Thank you Mr and progress Steve Atkinson also miss the bone as general counsel. At the athletic director Shawn Jones. And myself. Okay now I know it's hard for this may sister ask you a question like that but I appreciate you do I know the sensors on. Well I prob I couldn't have done it so I appreciate you doing that okay all right. As you probably heard there was some. Misstatements I guess is I'll put it on the financial statements. During during the time in question that we're talking about did you ever hear anything that the financials may not be correct any use any waist shaper fashion no Sir okay. Right then also we've had a lot of discussion about these invoices the invoice is being held or checks being hailed everyone put it both ways did you know anything about that or did you ever hear the president or any of these other individuals talk about that. I knew. As early as I believe is around the first part of November that November of of. Eighteen okay I knew that a sum of the requisitions that our office entered another lady entered on And as she entered them some of them were being I guess returned and most of the ones I'm referring to or for the university to use in memberships that were you know is that annual amount and we would pay them you know usually right after July first we would get get those paid and they were returned and and I was told us that. They were following accounting procedures and that we should not prepay those because sometimes if it is you and let's just say January would not pay it you know I October set a and those were being returned to us and at that time. That was reported to president Jones and he just. He he didn't want to talk about it he just and. Yeah his his actions or his reaction was. Different you know it is clear they probably knew something that he was going to have that discussion so and then. The next thing I would meet if you invited me I'm sorry stub when every man that were returned who were who is returning your talking about somebody somebody that was supposed to approval within H. issue was centered on back and say don't pay on the the. Well the business office when they were you enter the requisition for payment you submit the invoice and typically the a process that it goes through the it's entered into the system so check can be cut mailed and I'm really not positive who does what I really okay I think. I'm pretty sure risk Karen Spradlin but there was another person that. You know. process as well so okay what a mean interrupt you there you can continue with what you were. I think you also in addition so And and then the next thing that I bought it but my attention was I had a walk down to the business office and cares and documents down there and Now I was actually in miss brightens office and she had a stack of invoices and she was very upset and said. We have all these invoices we have no money to pay them And so then I realized how bad things at her. You know about do you know the approximate date on that. Probably the. Within a day or two when it out below that because I know that. Resident Johns was and the country. And. As As I would normally do and another person who works and works closely with president Jones was the vice president for university advancement and I tell her and evidently she had already been working on some things at that time So. Was read this was there any discussion when everyone in the office and seeing all those invoices are stacked up who whose whose office witness Spratling is that what you said yes at the. Did you and her having discussions at that time that you know when I don't put any words in your mouth but the said what I knew this was coming or so doctor Jones knew about this or doctor pal is or anything any type anything about those conversations. You know we we want to hear at all that's what we're trying to get to the bottom of this. I don't recall mentioning doctor Jones or her mentioning doctor Jones she mentioned that she had let doctor Pallin know that about the many situations and I believe she had sits on the about the about emailing him some of those concerns Right in that I think we've heard that testimony there might be an email like that so okay. And I know you said you were the look liaison what was there and maybe this will help with like Senator Clark maybe you'll know this was their policy to prevent ages use that fact green staff from having contact with the trustees. It was not a policy okay. When you asks Mr board Barnes how long it'd it'd been in place I started thinking back myself and trying to figure out exactly when that really started. As best I can remember. It probably started around two thousand seventeen. I have. As a liaison to the board I have always had routine conversations with any and all trustees about different things they would call me I would call them I would help them if I could if I couldn't I would tell them you know the set up an appointment for them to visit with president Or if I had a cell number that they can just call directly. AS cleans. At that time now with with president John as it was a little different than the trustees before him because he he preferred to do most of his calling his trustees and having that conversations that he didn't really want me to do it any more than I had to do it and it was obvious to me and on occasion when he asked me to do something nice okay that will entail may calling this trustee or or the polling the board or something like that and and I was there you know do you want me to go ahead and proceed with that as used sometimes he was I know I'll do it ours and sometimes he would be okay with it so it wasn't really anything that you could pinpoint it was more just. I had the feeling and that he just wanted to kind of run it in and be The knowledgeable about everything. I know that when he started we came to office. He wasn't the president there were a lot of things he had to pick up a long way and He he would ask me for information or advice or what I thought about things. And if I told when he there's no you know and and he would go on and just disregard all right like he was disregarding whatever I said and. And so I think that was just another thing that he he wasn't comfortable with the people before you know he he wanted to start his own. term without. That that's what I felt what without someone who had that kind of background with the board. But as. As as time went on. It it started becoming a parent that money was getting tighter we were having more needs and. I had a conversation with trustee Arnold at the time. And we talked and I know it was a brief conversation but I said you know this is yeah I don't know what we're gonna do this is getting. And it's getting bad and I said yeah you know about when that was and I hate it you know I think it is five one two seven two hundred two thousand seventeen into the year first of the year. Our party now I'm guessing I would say probably toward the first of the year that would give it seventeen eighteen or nineteen I'm I'm thinking a couple years had okay Also tell him at that time that President Jones had I know that he told me personally and I know that he talked to the Executive Council about individuals talking to trustees. And. I'm not sure of his overall calls I do know that many started getting tighter but also know that he had been wanting to keep the board kind of rainy day and so you know just be a gas or what the real reason was but and he asked the the executive council if there If they're people had a conversation with president that he wanted to know what it was about we want to the chest of the conversation there was no form to fill out or anything like that it was just a matter of letting the president no not vice president and are not. You know director so and so's you know had talked to test a you know as far as the I know that he would would prepare that those conversations didn't really happen and I'm not sure. I'm not sure who all I tell and I tell with the people that that he preferred you know that you don't talk to the board members and I know that the executive council knew that so they were supposed to go out and let their people know so. Is it I feel like it just started getting out on campus you know don't do it but there was there is no form or anything like that well that that's helpful that kind of lets us know where that is come out of nowhere this transpired because we've heard that over and over again let me ask you one step further on that. Do you think the board members at that time do you think they knew that that it happened or is that just something they. That kind of got out and they found out later were they for that really for people not talking to him or against it or they just didn't know. I think I did not know at that time okay all right. Okay. Really as far as me more the standard questions I really don't have any of those and I know you've just out did you have anything else that you want to say before we. What other members start I mean I down thing that you can tell us I mean in your role or something you heard like I say that's that's what we want to hear right and actually I A dot a few notes while I was out there and and we covered it that I have served for five presidents and and but that I have served for the as the as on to the board that for the full amount of time and I saw a lot of different practices a lot of a lot of stuff going. And it and on the same as all that it was good to but and I was I was there through. Representative Lowery Europe Sir. Thank you Mr chair miss weeks thank you very much for being here on I know you probably weren't anticipating it but I think I remember we can go at the kid was trustee span that that made the reference or maybe Mr Hartman that he had been told that he could share your name is that is that your recollection re do you remember I think that was trustee arm twisting okay okay well and I think it's very instructional to us the fact that you served under five different presidents you made a reference awhile ago and talking about some of the invoices that couldn't be paid and I don't know if that was well. In that there was a conversation that you had with doctor Jones and you said that his reaction was different what what do you what do you mean by that. And. That was. I have visited with the Administrative specialist in our office and she had told me what that you know I knew that that requisition was entered because she enters some and then I approved them and so I knew it had gone that the system and she had told me that it was you know It was returned and she was upset and so Now tell us that you talk to talk to doctor Johns and so I was there when she walked in office and I was there at the door and she was explaining it to him and I was about halfway down the hall will just yeah ten feet down the hall when I heard or walk out and she's. You know. Basically it it didn't do any good. So and that was not enough time to have a conversation about it. Okay. By your testimony I mean you are indicating that doctor Jones was made aware of the financials. State Henderson was in of not being able to have the cash flow to pay its invoices well. Not necessarily because he was made aware he was that where that was not being paid as it had been for years you know in the past but we were also told that they were eight hearing more closely to accounting procedures so they gave us. An explanation of sorts so okay. Some the information's been shared with us that's probably been the most troubling was to find that and and I've have ask for this list that think staff has it but we haven't seen it the list of invoices that were found unpaid when doctor pal left Henderson but is totaling something like four million dollars now the testimony that we've received was that doctor Jones or someone under his authority found those unpaid invoices in doctor pals desk are you familiar with the discovery of those unpaid invoices. in I believe may or June of two thousand nineteen. Only from what I heard and I heard that miss Franklin had found them on his desk in and they all pile Mr ms Franklin had found on his desk okay in the in your of any and you indicated that you your role had been pretty consistent among all presidents but that you in the and again I don't want to miss characterize what you said but you were liaison to the board did you feel like that ability to be a liaison to the board was dramatically curtailed under president Jones. I don't know that I would use the word dramatically. It was. I would you significantly I guess that's kind of getting to the same idea Okay as as a I'm just gonna use the phrase as a fly on the wall in the executive council meetings. And your experience of working under five presidents. Do you feel that the communication between the president and the board of trustees. Based on your observations in those meetings or in board meetings was less transparent than you had ever seen under any of the previous presidents. I'm just asking for your your opinion your that's kind of hard is it to answer in a way I don't mean I mean I don't mind telling you what I think but I. If you don't mind for four years as I work with with trustees and as new trustees came on. And I think one of the phrases that I use quite often was. The board only knows what the president wants them to know. So if you need something if you. If you need information that you don't see let me know or let him or her. And. Because it's probably in those documents where. Things are. Maybe not hiding that. No Being developed may be or and. Not being discussed and So. The president. At each meeting did give a very nicely worded. president's report that. was land then it had some details of what was going on at the university and the kind of things I'll kind of feel good report if if you will and. Yes he did mention some things that we were working on things that we were trying to. Today for students in and goals that were trying to meet so it wasn't all just. Like that but he never I don't recall him ever really reporting anything that was Some question it so much. And. When Dr pal was reporting. I know that occasionally he would. contribute to that. Presentation but usually he would remain quiet. And. The last question would ask me Miss Kneebone testified last week that there was and I I don't really remember if she said there were several occasions but she did reference there was at least you know sometimes. Instances were questions where she ask questions of doctor Jones. President Jones. In his response was you really don't need to know that were there ever instances where you ask questions as the assistant to the president and the assistant to for previous presidents were there ever times where you brought a situation in issue or ask the question of president Jones where he indicated to you that you really didn't need to know that our need to be asking that. There were and. Nothing real significant but I know I ask a couple things and he said I'll take care of it in other words that's all you need you know. A. And. And typically he was more More of a one on one person as far as being vocal because I know I look back at some notes from and the Executive Council in from cabinet meetings just to see in our face. You hear the somewhat you your your date start getting scrambled and and so I was looking back to see when they started talking about those things. And and and they really weren't there I mean very very solemn and. But one he met with his executive council and his cabinet. Can of A rings were monthly second counts or ever money morning. An. He also had monthly one on one meetings with his direct reports so and those were usually for a couple hours and. I know that the things he brought to executive council and took the cabinet were not this level of conversation they were not about these these details that. That we're talking about. In a sum up A bill like those were Held and dealt with one on one I know that the president's door was always open to his a direct reports. and I know that he talked to doctor pal either in his office in the president's office or on the phone. I would guess about six times a day. So I thank you he was. He was in the know okay. That and that was gonna be my follow up question was with that frequency of conversation with six conversations that day he was in the know present six every day but I know that some days because you know brit run down the hall and and you asked the same two or three times that morning and then doctor Johns would say something about well we've talked on the phone since then but we dealt with that last night on the phone so you know that's just a a number operative but I believe is accurate okay well thank you for for being here today thank you Mr chair yes Sir. Members I was going to look up just told hold on just a second this week I would go out trust the bars to be excused unless anybody are you gonna have something else. Okay then I'll ask him to stay we'll we'll bring him back after we're done with this week's here. Okay at this time Senator hammer. Thank you Mr chair and regulation for being here today right here by the post First of all. Did dem. Miss weeks the president Jones leave the country knowing that schools in financial distress. I think he left the country knowing the university was in very very bad condition I do not think he left. Knowing that we couldn't make payroll that month. What what draws you to that conclusion that he didn't know. We're gonna be able make payroll while he was gone. He his management style what's. Was very hands on it was there it was very much a micro manager. An. And if he saw anything in any area on campus. they would call the V. P. up and you know he would be part of that conversation to settle that. And I think he was very concerned about what others thought of him and his position and his abilities to run the university I don't think he would take the chance on that occurring at a time when he was not available to try to squelch it okay and you've been of through their through five presidents is that correct. Yes okay so did you do you recall any time during the tenure of those five presidents that you served under that they intentionally did not want a practice to be brought up for consideration to become a policy or for a policy to be done away with so that they could insert a practice. You lost mental bit there well we had discussions in here you know there's policies there's practices and there's procedures. So during the five presidencies that you've served under are you aware of any of them that intentionally wanted to do away with a of a policy approved by the board so that they could insert a practice that they would rather see under their control then for the board to have any influence over. When I first began in two thousand and one Dr Charles done was president and And I had not held a position like that I'd been the assistant to the dean before but A nothing at that level and he went to great lengths to spend time with me to help me learn what was going on and what he needed. And I remember talking to him about policies because we realized even me and always years ago that we didn't have policies. And He back I don't remember his exact words but he told me that that allowed him more flexibility. That was in another air almost you know twenty years ago that you know things have changed and moved on but that it did. You know they weren't held. If it weren't held arm that an. And then. But what for the sixth time let me fast forward kitchen kind of started addressing that you've just started rushing do you know of any policies. Specifically related to the financial affairs of the university that Mister Jones Mister Paul intentionally wanted to get removed from the policy status so that they could have practice status in order to have greater control over the financial information. You know I'm not aware of any policy like that now if you gave me over not to think about it or to search the records I might be able to find something but nothing's coming to mind okay well maybe at the discretion of the chair we might get that if this goes beyond today did any Lucy here. Did you ever see any conduct. Of. President Jones and Mister Paul that in your opinion violated the laws you knew the law to be that gave you pause are concerned with regards to financial information about the university. I did not. Okay and missed me well question for you but the almost if it's okay Senator allow that to happen at the end but my standard course action with the other ones was to. Just have meet miss the bone sit there so that's money and will if you allow it we will ask a question alright thank you. Senator Johnson thank you wrote. Thank you Mr chair and. This week's thank you for coming in for your candor and are you're very helpful to us and your historical perspective on what all's been going out of. You mentioned in your testimony that doctor Jones seem to have a desire to your term which keep the board reigned in. Of. Could you elaborate on that just a little bit. I didn't feel like he wanted anyone else to be close to have conversations with the board I felt like he wanted to be that contact and only the only content yes ma'am okay of. Does that differ from the other four presidents that you worked with in any significant manner. It does. And. Thank you about all of them. You mention of remember doctor done course a doctor Welsh and he's I think he stepped out for a moment but other than that but there is never ever help more I guess I'm not my memory is not that good I don't member all certainly knew all of them but I don't. remembered but of of the other four. You do you do you didn't see or at least significantly that issue there. With the others it was a very comfortable relaxing sort of environment we we work that. It was there was most there was not as much Cersei's stress because the laws was always stress but. The president didn't exhibit Signs that made us feel like we were doing something wrong. A and. I'm a college trustee they could call me We didn't have to worry about. You know I'm a se talk to. Section you know such as Surgeon they're gonna do you know this and. There was nothing to hide I feel like that that's the difference and there was really nothing to hide in those would it be fair to say that not putting any words you'd rather just trying to interpret would be fair to say that to he preferred that. He personally be the only conduit between the board and Henderson state university both the faculty and staff level. Talking about Dr Jones yes yes and there were a few that he you know he would say I want you talked to this person about the US and the bus president for university advancement with you know talk to a trustee sometimes about things but in his direction. Right okay and the final thing I want to ask you that is so we had other testimony during these hearings that a doctor Jones being a. A member of. Outside of boards or other entities that was brought at he's board member to even chairman of of southern bank Corp and perhaps others as well the weather academic leave oriented. Organizations or just community organizations such as a bank a would you say that compared to the other four presidents that doctor Jones was absent from the the campus noticeably more than the others or was that all about the same with all of the. It was more but one of the reasons was one of the the entities that doctor Jones was. Was part of was in NC double a and when I work for Charles done he had hit Cairo wrapped up all of his service in CW wasn't on the road he you know he didn't do as much of that yes I was aware of the committees and how it worked I really don't remember that from doctor Welsh but with doctor Jones. When he came in when he came to Henderson he had a couple of organizations like the bank in the Baptist health that there weren't very many academical top organizations and so he he actually no strive to become more involved and Muncie got on the board in the this more than you serve on that committee in this committee and and it was very trying sometimes to get things scheduled on campus and we would have to move appointments on campus because you know there's another another committee meeting so from that standpoint yes but well since the verses member NC double why the one could say that that particular service is part of the job of being president of H. issue Take the that in anything like that the side would you say that back to my question on the that doctor Jones was. Out doing other things not saying they weren't good thing for the community or whatever but we're outside the the specific purview of of Henderson state university more so than his predecessors. Maybe a little more that I'm not really sure but not significant efficiently okay there were things that were things and and I will say that when he went to anything. To do with with the bank he charged annual leave to that and because he you know and and I made sure and I would you know on their end and show them that charge that each month so he he did that and you know that kind of takes the sting out of Italy okay Mister chairman I'd should that be my last question but her answer just prompted yet one more if you would bear me the courtesy of other than that I have never guessed thank you senator Johnson you're fine. This week's a. We had previous the testimony here regarding final four tickets that because the. A present Jones was a member in CA board whatever that he was able to provide final four tickets to serve people and I think maybe trustees may have been involved and at the also believe the testimony was that they paid for the tickets which I don't doubt that but if you will know there's probably a price printed on that ticket but if if I just decide I want to go to the final four in the real world I don't pay that price I pay a. What the market bears with stub of over one of these other services that you know I think the caller says brokers I tend McCollum scalpers but be that as it may the face value the ticket might not be what an ordinary person would have to pay to get to go in person to the final four games you were you aware of the payment made by these people to whoever to the university or to talk to reimburse the NCAA or or even if if. For example I'm not saying you did but if the doctor does bought those tickets a turnaround resell them do you know that if if that a map that they paid was the face value the ticket or some other figure I'm not certain I know that I was copied on his all of his insatiable eight committees and and things like that so I did get those emails and if he had one that came just to his account that I need to see you would board to me so I'm aware of of the purchase of those tickets I actually afforded some to this The. Few days ago so this is in the record of arc of A emit legislative committees it is okay. But I do I remember one email talked about it he was eligible to get. And with those two or four in this block you know and it was the. You know the senior level block whatever so good tickets we need to get that it probably is licensed I don't know but he was still eligible to purchase those tickets for him and his guest at that rate so at face value well I don't know what the okay all right we'll put that on in in you know in this blog so but they're probably something that's been provided two staff that that would clarify that that figure in the email or some I don't know I saw the. A saw the payment you know where to been paid in this an email to him and I sent one to. On the trustees that was going with him But I didn't see them out only I think I saw one invoice and there and I believe that was for Women's basketball for his life maybe and it was not as much okay thank you very much for test by thank you again Mr yes Sir. Senator rice. Thank you for being here national question miss weeks of to clarify something that Mister Barnes said in it was inaccurate but it the the progression may have been you may be able to clarify of doctor pal thank you said came from Moby you he went from doctor power from B. you to the director of ADHD and then the H. issue is that correct that is my and again that was The state what role the word reasoning may come from but the just want to get that clarified in your role as assistant to the president. You mention doctor Jones is out of the country when the stuff it to fail. Wait when it did a repeat the flash by row can be made right. That's what it was looking like was this on the Caribbean cruise or was this on a trip to China this was a cruise this Caribbean cruise hello and you know how long it was go. I thank you I'm not sure I don't the seven days or ten days okay the alien eyes of stated for I don't have problem somebody taking their own vacation by or that that. A in any explained a little more that I would have gone I ask. It was very troubling if if he knew that I don't see how they could Noel the trouble winds were blowing in the be going with his employees can be. Be paid that was troubling the me ask you this just touching on the the China crypsis been verified there were fully multiple gentry up to doctor Jones and and Mister Powell went on Those do you know what purposes were far. They were signing an agreement with different used institutions and China. They had to do was to kind of agreement see I. Force for students ages and we send them there so it was cents change tire inflation financially that could have helped a tissue okay do you know who paid for those trips the China paper in those troops. I don't know what China paid for us do you know if China paid anything on trips. I do not I don't think they did I believe Henderson paid. Foundation and some other funds is what we everything that I entered for him for remember in a reason I ask for you if you try on a pay per se is we we found out that in in recent times nationally that that John has exerted influence down to the levels would not surprise me to get influence in universities and and and education let me go to this are you familiar with what we've discussed in here far as when the banks were switched from the former Was it Simmons was bought out by a Ozark in in H. issues which from Ozark again through a procurement or through a bit process switch to southern by Corp you familiar with that. Wasn't Simmons it was okay summit some excuse me let me correct that summons I'm familiar with it it was Miller about all interest normal bid process as far as I know yes do you know of anything it was raised in that at the time that that doctor Jones was chairman of the board of southern by court. Anything that was raised me discussion or. Is that I was raised about he as chairman of the board of southern by a court to the universe just which in their business to through a bit process when they were in financial trouble was there any discussion of how that might look. I don't recall any discussion during board meetings and. Was read anything that cross your mind. Well. I mean it crossed my mind yes but I know I think he turn repeat was the board the he told that he did because when he reported it to the board and he said that you know seven had submitted the best did you know so and he he talked about that just a little bit And I remember That when. You were talking about people excusing themselves from board meetings and things and I know that when summits of. Had gotten RB eight years ago that Mr level excused himself from the conversation and he S. at the records reflect that he he chose not to vote or produced by the conversation to just so there wouldn't be an appearance of a conflict of interest and which he testified to as a. Yeah and were hi the previous question I ask does it come to your mind the people's mind that a chairman of the board just through their workings with the other board members have influence over other board members. And possibly could be beneficial to their desires for financing possibly for H. issue sure it would come to mind let me finish up asked me this I wanna I've got two things one you're familiar with what we discussed earlier about the progression of the annual officers yes A gone from normally the one year deal and again this is up to the trustees we were tow. But at some point it was changed to two years why do you think that happened. Yeah I actually look back in the board minutes to try to find where they may have voted on that had to be a lot of years ago because I gave up looking and reading minutes of. I did find in. Two thousand and. Think it was two thousand seven or eight. Where doctor done was still there they're the and and he explain to the board that the practice had be and FOR you know the the chair to go off and you know the other to develop and then you have point for vote on a secretary and so that I mean. Even from what I remember it it all right he's been in in place like that it but he said you know for two years at that time and. I don't recall it really staying consistent all during that time I know that when we had a president search. I think it was one of the two that. And we were replacing doctor Welsh and. I think we. Change the period the end so that the chair could remain through the rest of the search now that he had started I think that was John Henson the end but I think it was changed. Periodically the more the needs are they justified as being for the needs of the university in one way or the other do you feel like some that have expressed that the timing of who would have come owned a is is chairman or or possibly could have been chairman Didn't have the same idealistic Leadership is the chairman who they were keeping on there would you say that the boss I think it's possible. Hillary finish up you being consistent to your knowledge did any current or former board member of H. issue executive a benefit financially from spending at H. issue or did you the R. steamy did anyone benefit financially from business interests associated with the university projects animal but with the exception of what we were familiar with and been clarified with Mister ball. Yeah the thing is the only thing I could that came to mind was This I'm just gonna guess here and say maybe four years ago possibly I think it's about four years ago Trustee of brown Hartman has. These United country realty or something like that and so he you know has some kind of State in selling of. Property and the university was purchasing some property and he I remember it very well that he and tell them that the costs of you know this he was going to you know stay out of the the conversation in the vote and have the minutes reflect that there was a clarity in advance. And that's the only thing other than Mr Whipple's you know being on the board assignment okay and I I thank you again for being here and again just from your position where you're at it helps us to do to have a perspective that is is much needed any been forthright I appreciate it thank Mister. Senator Clark. Thank you Mr chair. Thank you miss weeks for being here. Of. All. When I was very young. my dad was a high school librarian and had an annual contract. Of the where did just get paid annually her he worked at the school annually and I hung out with them a lot. Of in. A hung out with the office staff with the school a lot. And so I learned something of. Not blaming you for anything but I want to really run to school so that's been very beneficial to me throughout education. Of and then as a C. E. O.. Are no no work in a pressure cooker everyday. And outside my family and sometimes even including my family that my executive assistant and those who work closely with me know more about who I am than probably anybody else in the world because there's no hiding. Hello make decisions what I'm doing except for so. You've shared with us that doctor Jones was a micro manager. That he hands on. There was a problem he's got riot he liked would get right down on it more so than. Because there's all kinds of styles of management. Tended to be may be more secretive. The wasn't is open. Because I'm so I'm I probably way to transfer and I'm way out on the edge my dad gets on to me about that all the time that you know I don't have any secrets. The. When. Do you think. The doctor Jones knew about the financial problems because it seems with because it seems from what you've related there was certainly. A concern about not only how the unit the college was run but about the appearance. And when the you think that he knew the financial problems. Would be my first question. This is just my opinion but sure an. Doctor Jones. Felt like a lot of things that Henderson could be better done better. Look better taste better. When he came into the university he did not. Here to me that he did a lot very much about the university. And he. He began spending money. And. I say never let up until he had to. But. To answer your question. When Bobby Jones. But then the position of finance administration. I'll have to give body body credit because we always had some rainy day money we always you know. Okay came out of things and And he had some are thank you but you know and then we had some reserves but. For a couple years they they started you know trending. And. Then. Bobby left in. Sixty. And I believe that president Jones New brat from working on the Was it the. Finding the. The this lofted the finding of. Thank you what. Productivity yes that the. Okay and. And so he he got to know in the in. And I think he thought that the two of them together working with that in mind and putting their brilliant brains together that they could. You know create and find the money that Henderson they did I don't know when he relate came to terms with any other. I don't know if he did. Okay we'll let me you you entered some question Sir the board asked that I think are helpful but. The. You don't know when. It appeared to dawn on him that or financial problems. I don't. I don't know if he came in and knew the the financial problems that we didn't have that much money and still chose to spend the thank you will let me take you to a for instance okay we've talked about it again had a vacation plan you got reservations made a CEO of a there's because I get that you know the. I run a family business I can guarantee you whatever data set to go somewhere there will be a more urgency in the business just you can count on it so of the. But is we've gone over that and the. It would you have said that there was no one there were financial problems you thought that the didn't know that would be able to make payroll but that he knew there were financial problems. Severe financial problems. Or I don't know what you don't know the so we didn't necessarily know that it was that severe. I don't know. Okay so you don't even know at that point that he knew it was that severe. I don't know how severe he thought it was do you think that if he had known. That. They couldn't make payroll that he would have left I don't believe so no that's for me working with thing for the that time the fee to known because he was a hands on. So. Do you have any idea how it was that he didn't know. I believe that president Jones had great faith in doctor pal. And. I don't think he. I just don't think he thought Brett would leave things in that kind of situation I don't I don't know that he was ever completely one hundred percent honest with doctor Johns. I get that amend the allotments. You know some of the stress no one and some of us say. You're in charge of it you got it and and you have but but the which is the the before Brett Powell was did you say Bobby Jones yes was that my understanding and that under during that time. He had it under control yes and so that change with Thompson was doctor was doctor Jones is idea. Would I don't know I don't. That turned out to be a fatal. Okay thank you. Thank you Mr chair. Representative Springer you're recognized for a question. Thank you thank you Mr chair hi miss was your last name again weeks weeks okay I'm joy a Springer. A I believe I just have three questions for you. You indicated that you aware that Dr germ spoke with the doctor Pallin regular basis like six times a day could you tell us whether or not he had similar conversations with Mrs Kneebone did he talk to her on a regular basis. He did but is send to me that he spent more time with her when. I don't know that when I a legal issue came to light and and then there were times when she could work without his input as often so. I think there was less of that so can you give us an idea as to how many times he spoke with her on a daily basis like you did for Mr pile. I think on a daily basis he probably steal spoke to her a couple of times and it might of been brief a may have seconds head in the door and said hi and maybe had a few words and layout that and he acknowledged okay so I'm just trying to see how you had previously indicated that you thought that doctor Jones and doctor power come proceeding on a regular basis and that he would know a whole lot of things that were going on with respect to the finances of the university I'm just trying to see if that were the case with the missing the bone so that brings me to my next question did you actually hear doctor Jones of teal mist Newbold I think you said earlier that you know there's some things that she didn't need to know that you actually hear him say that to her no okay thank you and then I guess my final question is Did you actually hear the subjects of the conversations that of doctor Jones and doctor power having when they will have in the six conversations on a daily basis did you actually hear exactly what they were talking about. No. CC Ann. Sometimes it was it was quite or he would walk in doctor Jones office close the door and of course I would hear anything sometimes they would begin the conversation in the hallway it would carry on over and force I would be aware of you know what was going on But I'm just trying to figure out did you know the subjects did you did you actually know what they were talking about when they were having these conversations that's All I Want to. Yes doctor power I know that they I mean I'm I knew when they were talking about S. S. C. R. I'm sorry I knew when like if they were having conversations about our our grounds people keeping things up and those sort of things or when the was taught they were talking about acidic so or air mark before that so sometimes I did but not always all right thank you thank you Mr chair. Senator when you're recognized. Thank you I'm right here hi okay hi thank you sorry and and thank you for being here for awhile are you. You're familiar with this audit report. I've seen it you have seen it so as twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen and you were there during this time soccer I was okay so if you've seen this there's a lot of understated amounts there's a lot of overstated amounts in this report Any reason why you think this was done. I have no idea. A let down I don't know with. If we were like in the books. Ms right out yes I would our combined I feel like we're all kind of just dance around their real issues and and I feel like we had a good Ole boys. Please do not take offense when I say that to my gentleman colleagues but. Clearly there is lack of transparency lack of accountability there was a lack of rules and procedures the board of trustees you know were. seemingly you know picked and told information that they wanted to have their information given to them but it's this it was very selective information perhaps which we find that to be. Honestly sometimes that does happen right right we we we get that but it this this to me with a lack of. Process and procedures and transparency and accountability of like finding the truth. I want to know why this is happening like why things were overstated amounts were overstated while they were understated. Okay. I don't know but but I. I will say with out doubt. I mean you would need to blow me over if if anybody were to ever prove anything differently I trust Lisa Franklin and I trust Karen Spradlin. Date I do not believe either of those people would do anything illegal they may have makes mistakes I'm I don't know about that but they they were not cooking the books like you said. I don't know if doctor pal. I don't know if he. Contributed to that or. I would say you would. And what do you what that are harmless where is he currently somebody can refresh my memory taxes okay so he's no longer employed in the state of Arkansas right. I mean he. I don't know him that well he didn't talk to people that often he didn't have it is an assistant I actually mentioned that to President Johnson said this kind of weird for vice president not to have assistant someone to make meeting someone to. Make is copies and keep is disorganized form and you know it just kind of blew my mind and and but he said he didn't need one that but I say that to say that he he was more withdrawn and he wasn't talkative. All right well I I mean I I don't know what it and I'm not really I don't really understand you know has not really getting into personalities and I I understand that I appreciate those comments however I'm looking at the nuts and bolts and like the facts and it's very hard for me quite frankly to look at these audit findings and believe that these were just mistakes I'll just say that because these are huge huge amounts of money and they would you know and you have things that were understated and things that were overstated it's it's very inconsistent and and I just wanted to know your your opinion about that because. I'd. I just want to know your opinion. And okay thank you. This center. Members we have three more of I will try to get through that if if unless we have some others are we in the queue and then we'll have lunch we do have lunch here today in and FOR also the the people that we've invited will have lunch for them to if they're still here but if we do get a lot more than will just break for lunch now and then have to come back with this week's but right now we have three and we're gonna try to get through. Representing Womack. The mall thank you Mr chair thank you miss weeks thank you for coming today and thank you for your service to history I mean your service to Henderson it's through that service that you have such a unique perspective I think and up I have over the years we've let these different committee meeting several times and people that the work at an agency or something so why did you ask the US are wanted you you know you were so close so I'm curious in here are there any questions. They you are any of your colleagues would like to hear us ask and if so what are they in and to whom and are there any people that we've not heard from any of these proceedings that you think may have relevant information to help us track down. The exactly. How this happened I guess. Well. I didn't expect that what. I can't think of anyone else I'll take the easy part first I can't think of anyone else who would really know very much an. May I may I ask of how about the provost his name is come up in private conversation several times with the with faculty down there so just curious. A he he might be helpful he definitely lived through it with us so and yeah his take on things is. May or may not be mine so you know that that could be I don't somebody said this morning that They were surprised that Megan Hickerson had been called but I think the provost could probably answer those questions I mean I think those. Voted no confidence were public and. I'm not sure that. And she could answer why the board didn't hear and and things like that. You were not. If I may you may want when I started you know just ACT shut everything aside and I started thinking about this and I actually made myself some just knows just for me to kind of keep on track because I'm so scatterbrained sometimes and I put doctor pal gland the board and others. And I signed the percentage of blame to each person. I change it twenty twenty times of you know I can probably go back change another ten times. But. I felt like Brett pal was probably forty five percent responsible. Whether it was because the president told him to do things. And he didn't have the ability to do them and he didn't want to. You know I admit that I don't I don't know. An. They're not a son thirty percent to Glyn Johns. He and I had a lot of differences. He was probably the most challenging supervisor I have ever worked for. And nothing I want to do again. But. And I and I can't call I because the. so that there were issues there. But I do not believe he did this on purpose at I believe in his mind he was trying to help the university to grow to look better to smell better. Whatever and. I think he had. Some good intentions. I think he put it I think you made some decisions and put some his faith and the wrong people. But. Look at this if I. And then I signed twenty percent of the board. And I say that knowing that I have to go back and more with this board. I mean. What like that but But it probably will be a little more difficult I don't say it to be mean I say it because they had a responsibility I say it because they did not. I didn't follow up on the questions when Ross Whipple and Eddy Arnold and brown Hartman we're asking but what about reserves but what about reserves. Thank you asking a board meeting. And. Brett England set their. With the stone face look. State they didn't respond they didn't follow up to the best of my knowledge because I know I've had some those trustees calling me saying when are they going to tell us what we yes I don't think the board was prepared for board meetings. I say that because of what I said earlier that the board only knew what the president wanted them to know. And the cost. Getting gathering materials for board meetings is a challenge if you've never done it out of pride. Of from vice president it it's next to impossible and our administration has had a history of not getting things submitted the president talked to me and tell me that was my responsibility to make them get to me on time and if they didn't I was to take the items off the agenda. And I tried that a couple times he said no. And so we would get materials light. Then they were posted to I'm a confidential area on my Henderson. Supported go analog and see those materials they knew that But we tried to have opposed to two weeks before the meeting. And one things went well once in a wall that was done usually usually and there were things that were coming in the morning of the meeting so that's not an but I say that to say it's part of it was because they didn't get the information in a timely manner so they could read it I know. I know that they walked into those board meetings without having ever looked at the budget reports without having ever read any of the reports out there and I know that the costs when you go into that system as the person who puts it up it shows how many people have logged in and click on each document. I can't tell you how many meetings. And I would tell doctor Jones okay one person's read read your documents. You know and I would always almost every email before the board meetings say if you need me to help you get logged in or you've forgotten password give me a call I'll be glad to you know walking through that and. So. I'm not saying that in love Henderson but they didn't do what they were supposed to do for Henderson. They didn't. In CS that their questions the answer they would ask good questions sometimes. And then they just that until maybe the next meeting or are the next meeting this heavy winds and this one we don't have any reserves A well that's okay. And that is not what talk about. And so. I'm probably angrier that the and the other two I guess because ACT. Or so long I have taken care of that board I love those people I recognize how much time they gave of their lives to do that and when I came that was like amazing I mean what twenty years ago at the White House this campus is an even know how much these people are doing for them. And I don't think they've done that lady. Well I sincerely appreciate your candor I believe or not that was actually question on my list earlier and I decided not to ask you because I didn't want to put you in that position but but that kind of thing is is very very helpful for us to figure out which trails worth pursuing and and so I sincerely appreciate you you let us know that and thank you for being here today. Miss Weekes mash your question if if we were to take thirty minutes for lunch and then are we going to put you in any type of bind as far as staying later or anything now we're diverse not so. Well just just the to be straight up with you I so appreciate your testimony I'd like for us to take lunch and let you come back to it because I do appreciate as represent Womack said your candor and stuff and I'm going to say this not for your benefit but for anybody else and I don't think this would happen but I don't want anybody during the lunch break to say. We don't like your testimony or this or that so I'll be asking you that question and that is for everybody else that may be may be around that they'll know that we appreciate what you're doing and I just want them to understand that all ask that question of you the second to get back up there so thank you ma'am and at this point members we're going to go to lunch for. What everybody B. okay of a but we have lunch in the back and we do have lunch for you ma'am and the other members that are here are the people that we've invited also so would it be okay if we start back at twelve twenty. So would just come back at twelve twenty and we'll go from there so we're we're in break at this point. All right. Members were back this week's we appreciate that we appreciate you coming back after lunch as promised you need body say anything detrimental or negative about your testimony during the break no Sir all right thank you and just as a technicality I have to do this I'd and will remind you that you are still under oath you understand that yes Sir okay all right at this time of Senator hammer looks like Europe Sir. Thank you miss Weekes just you you've talked about the finances of the university exactly how deep for you and to the financial bowels of the university that you. Were aware of the you know just all the finances were you. I'm really removed from it other than just what I hear or. You know I'm just going to someone's office and. Sing it for myself but Our office is one into the building and I said my office pretty much all day so so you really want of had the You would really had the the intimate details to the finances of the university you would kind of find out same time everybody else was unless you're in a board meeting or in one would you all call an executive board meeting executive council executive council and that's when you would usually find out about the finances. I don't really recall them being discussed. Very often in executive council but sometimes yes I guess okay and I thank you may be listed awhile ago but who is expected to be in the executive council meeting. Now I have to name names just okay the vice president's. The legal counsel. Did minutes of the. Athletic director. And now we have added the well I guess we haven't added anyone. Okay so miss Nebo would have been in the what better the means right yes okay and did you during your you said you work for the university or for the president's how many years twenty did you say. All right for the university for. Almost twenty three and I was the president's office for nineteen. Okay and did you have you ever during that time felt the need to exercise your rights under the whistle blower laws. As in you became privileged information that you felt somebody needed to know what you weren't sure that those supervising you we're the ones you need to sell. Yes. Go ahead I'm sorry. And on occasion and even this time I did reach out to some individuals. Okay and what are the policies of the university regarding what are the policies that you understand them or is are in the handbook as to how you would go about seeking protection under the whistle blower ACT. I really don't know it's ridiculous but I know that we had the software the program and we could enter that from. Any computer any phone whatever a quality and and it would be routed and I just didn't have. The level of confidence in turning something into that system and it was really staying still on campus. And I knew that this the bone had to report to the president honestly. So I did not use the system. But you felt a level of discomfort to the point that you. Under this cart are you talking about under this current situation that this committee is discussing with the finances related to president challenge yes that you felt the need that you need to tell somebody about it yes okay and what was that that you felt you needed to tell them at what point did you feel that you needed to come out and say what you wanted to say. And. When I found out it was really at the point that we can't pay our bills and we don't have money for payroll it was that bad one day bam was there an. The president was not there. And I I turn to I guess three people about this I visited with The vice president FOR. advancement which is someone who he worked with. By closely and I know that he she had contact with him. And. I. I visited with JJ salario with legislative audit. And I and. I talked to. eighty trustee Eddie Arnold. Okay and those were the three people you talk to when you felt that you need to reach out somebody if. Had you gone for with exercising your rights on the whistle blower protection ACT those were the ones that you that you approached about it. I felt like that was the best option I had at the time. Okay. And what did they tell you to do with the information. Specifically let's let's just take Mister Arnold though those affiliated with the university what did they tell you to do with that information. I don't think that a toll and trying to think back I don't think he told me to do anything with it he said that he was going to make some calls talk to the governor the whatever. And. And he was I think I was not the first person to sell it called me on that I think he was getting other calls from campus as well come all at the same time. And I. Now he lived in Arkadelphia I knew him for so many years that. I felt like I could trust in. I also knew that the president would not want me to visit with him about it. And. Because you have been directed not to. The cost I knew that he did not want me to go to the trustees with anything serious I mean he he he would look past some calls or some you know a little things that if I had told him that I'd visited with trust shall he would have been very upset and I told Mister Arnold at the time that I had no doubts and to this day I have no doubts whatsoever that he would have fired me no doubts. But today you feel comfortable in your job because you're here under you know you're here under the request of the committee you been put under oath as you know our rules and Riggs requires do are you comfortable in your job today. I am a. But I'm also more willing to risk my job today. Because when I was talking to Womack the last category of responsible people was other and I put myself and FOR other. Because I knew that the president was out spending the money coming in you cannot keep up the kind of money he was directing the spent. And stay afloat for very long. But if you are not knowledgeable of personal finances to the debt that you testified while ago what credibility how can you make that statement with credibility that you knew use out spending the costs he he spent big chunks of money things that you know we routinely have. Budget meetings or reports from them going on through the years and you know. Faculty Senate is always wanting more money and wanting this program and things I mean that that's constant that goes on and when you spend two hundred thousand for the S. and a hundred fifty thousand for that and three hundred that those are big chunks of money those are. Those are project where the on our campus I mean you can do a lot with that and when he spent that kind of money when a authorize that those expenses. I knew money had to come from somewhere and I knew we didn't have the reserves that were you use the house. So no I didn't sit down and read the financial reports and no I. I didn't have. The details to relate back up what I'm saying I'm saying it just based on my experience at Henderson through the years three two. Many many strategic planning meetings and budget sessions and and things like that so I just need it we can come up with the kind of money. Okay I will bump you Mr thank you. No moto expand with what Senator hammer had done here so we'll give him credit you're you're saying that can you give us specifics I mean the hundred thousand to two hundred thousand and that is are just things that really come to your mind I would like to know what those were the things that really come to mind are things like an. And I thought that this last night in and I realize the public weren't as many Consulting contracts consulting contracts as what it felt like there's probably maybe one a year but you're still talking two hundred thousand dollars I mean that still. I mean campus would ask for that amount of money to do something that would show that our students could bill and and I would say there's probably about one of that those a year I mean. I can't I mall but I know there was one with John black was was of the missions that he's had contracts with Concertgoers over and some of that was paid with state some of those private money and he's had. Which a list on but they were they were always things outside the norm. Outside what we usually spent. Okay if you could come up with those you know. If you need a second I'm more than happy to give it to you want to do it now and I you just take your time. I'm sorry I'll get to you as soon as I can and it's not coming in the lines that I've kind there were several okay so yeah I would like for you the if you don't mind getting those to our staff but our work at the committee's request so and again I mean I know there's will be things that you can't remember but there's always gonna be highlights at the stick in your mind so if you come up with those that would be great. Okay Representative Lowery Europe Sir. Thank you. Mister chairman of this week's and I'm just following up because of one my appreciation of you being so forthright with this and so candid frankly that's not been the experience that we've had with the number of witnesses that there's a lot of lack of recall and all kinds of other. The tips to really not answer questions One of the two things that I'm struck by of your testimony one is the the long standing relationship you've had with the Anderson and the interaction that you had not only with board but I'm sure personnel throughout the university system and So my question relates to the two different. Findings by or the the votes of no confidence by the faculty Senate. I believe one that was submitted to the board in two thousand eighteen in the than and another one in two thousand nineteen no one in two thousand eighteen actually it's probably one of the first official documents that references or brings to the attention of the board that there was a three million dollar shortfall in the budget what is your recollection of the conversations the discussions that took place of specifically the two thousand eighteen spring of two thousand eighteen voted no confidence that was submitted to the board I guess submitted to the president to refer to the board that asked for the replacement I believe of doctor pal. As of also of the provost it also asked for probationary contract for president Jones what what is your recollection of the discussions by the board and their reactions to the revelation. That faculty Senate was concerned about the three million dollar shortfall. They spoke about it very little they I mean this they had a conversation but. I would say it was a short conversation A and in the board meeting I remember Which Johnny hasn't said made. Knowledge of it publicly and said that. they were in member save those. That document. And That they would. Take it that they cared about the the staff and the faculty at Henderson very much the value their opinions. And. But. They. Not then not publicly I noted by you They refused to listen to. People and people who wanted to speak to the board they would not listen to it and what a limited follow up on that because I specifically asked her Mister Barnes if there had been a denial of the right. or or denial of hearing the faculty Senate or any employees addressing the board you've just said that they. Said that they would not hear it so that they must have been an actual conversation or a discussion or a an announcement that no one was going to be heard was that well no I mean. It that's where this which ended up but the chairman Hudson said that he acknowledged the concern of alumni as well. And I believe I mean I would have to go back and look but I believe he said that they would just take it under advisement and that they appreciated the comments and concerns that they have received and then right after that they There are policy which says that for the public to speak to the board actually for anyone to speak to the board an you have to submit a request two weeks prior to the meeting and the board chair Hester proof that in of so at that time it'll be put on the agenda and I believe. I believe it gives some not three to five. He remembers three minutes or five minutes to give them a short period of time to dress the board if they are granted that Okay with that policy adopted there around the same time is that two thousand eighteen voted no confidence. A policy adopted the was adopted because at that okay because after that people wanted to speak to the board okay that's when that was put in place of my recollection so that policy would have been in place by the time that the two thousand nineteen vote of no confidence did the faculty. Solicit and receive the opportunity to address the board at that time of their concerns about both what they perceived as fiscally responsibility but also the vote of no confidence was did the day ever address the board under that policy they did not. Do you know whether or not it was requested. A. I think I would have known if it was requested that I guess there's a possibility that glanced could have gotten a request and and then it just they denied without me knowing that I wasn't where the of it ever being requested okay my Last really I'm I'm just gonna make this statement. I've said this in a previous meeting the number I'm concerned about some of the the loopholes that frankly exist in our whistleblower legislation the lack of protection because it does state in under the state whistleblower protection that the employee has a responsibility to report to their as you've already indicated that you would have been reporting to your superior or to the legal counsel on that doesn't seem to be protection at all so what we're gonna be looking at that but I just want you to know that you. Being is forthright issue pin and the willingness that you have to come before this committee. I will tell you that that grants you the ultimate whistle blower protection because I guarantee I will lead the charge if anyone ever tries. To be punitive at all towards you because you responded to our request in and the you were forthright I just want you to know we we appreciate you thank you thank you Mr chair. Yes Representative bringer. He. Thank you Mr chair miss weeks ago I just want to follow up. On a couple of questions that you answered. You you gave up those percentages the blame and A you weren't able to finish those and we were down to the other and you had indicated five percent and you and you said that there was some of the persons you had given put yourself in their who are those of the persons that you attribute to that five percent. You know. Almost anyone who knew something and didn't. Either. Mark willing. For any reason. To say something to someone so put please tell me those names that I'm trying to get some names well. For instance Lisa Franklin Karen spread one. I know they were aware of it and she then they work through it I don't know if they were afraid of Brett I know that. I know that everybody. I should say one of many people on campus. I knew that You didn't. You didn't by pastor supervisor didn't work around them. And brit did not the same. From what I've heard and from what I've seen as the but he didn't seem to work with his staff. He didn't seem to support his employees and. And it was it was just. You almost have to be there to understand the environment that they created and that they are mean bland Johns and brick house. And. The morale of the campus was horrible. And. They were talking executive as counsel about what they could do to go to court make it better. one thing they could have done. Is stop treating people like they're nothing like they don't matter like they don't know what they're doing when they really do. And I know that Glyn Johns was. DO that repeatedly with staff with office staff I saw what I didn't like it I still don't like it. But when you're when you're traded and you live in that kind of environment. I'm not making excuses I'm really not because I don't know where I should be going to next I wanted to keep my job I will pay you I wanted to keep my job and I feel like this is their mass. I'm not willing to risk my job. I will tell you. That. If the choice to make today. To lose my job so the rest of their job. House salary cuts. I would do it. And I know god will take care of me I knew then but I didn't listen to. So. I don't know how many people out there. I really don't I don't know what more the trustees student other than stay engaged but even even through that. I feel like they they should and could have done something. I'm. Okay I was just trying to see if that five percent added the light one percent per person sought now okay so is just so and I wanted to get a lot of people okay so then the other question I want to follow up on had to do with your statement indicating that of doctor Jones was spending big chunks of money and did I hear you say that he spent something for the back of the Senate over two hundred thousand dollars to what did I misunderstand you what was that about I think what I was saying was you know faculty Senate was a I think the part time as one as a faculty center always wanting something and needing something and two hundred thousand dollars would have been a big check embody to have accomplished a project whatever it might have been okay so they let me just follow up and I did not hear you when you were giving examples of the big chunks of money you were going out I can do you will be here so would you please call with those big chunks again I think Mr chair had wanted you to enumerate several of those and if you pass a chance to think about those would you repeat the ones that he that use told him before and then see if you can remember some additional ones please you know my mind has gone on to the next question so I haven't thought of anymore I have that okay with you what I will do that I mentioned that a a contract with Jumblatt Jim a contract with Jim black yes and I don't know what the company was really call this week she may have to pull that Mike a little closer winner and I understand it's hard in this room when you turn sideways like that no I don't know the name and you don't what does that person do could you. It. I know it was four admissions it was to help with some software and processes to better reach students recruit and keep up with them at. I don't know but all of us so that Mr black have a company was the name of a certain company as well as saying I don't recall that name right now because he was always referred to is John black okay how much was spent with Mr black I don't remember all right in who with those of the the other one that I'd mention. Was a Was a contract with I believe it this call gone through Garber I'm sorry gone Sir Garber I believe is the name. I know that I'm usually that was paid from private funds. But. I don't really care what it overcomes month it's university money and. And it's not. Needed the level it spent then it's. Should be done and and and but I do believe some of those also came from state funds and and that's all I'd written down but I will give this and thought and let me just ask you one last question I promise with the chair of what about the what about the members of his that executive committee this those persons on that council do they not have any blame meet as well I think they do thank you. Thank you ma'am. Representative rye you have a question Sir yes Europe. Thank you Mr chairman ma'am. This attachment daisy this shows all the different companies that are rolled you know different amount of moneys and all that of how often did the board are the council made every three months or every month. The board of trustees yes ma'am that changed over the Change over the years but when doctor Jones came in and he wanted to change it so they met quarterly and it took about a year for him to kind of get that accomplished so they were meeting quarterly they still had a budget workshop In may before the actual budget meeting where they approved the operating budget for the next year and they still had a summer retreat in addition and occasionally. That it buried but they would have a special call meeting to approve something that needed. Our hours county get in at this right here is a pretty good lay out of the different bills are owed some of our thirty some sixty and on down the line. At age council meeting excuse me H. council meeting that you guys Hey and. Was there something like this given to every. You're saying counsel you main board of trustees me rye for treasuries yes ma'am you know. They always got. A some budget reports. And the operating budget compared to the actual budget Income and expense statement. The death of the bond issues bond it's. I can't remember what else but they they got those regularly. But. And I know that Johnny has and read them and I know that creates span read them I believe some of the others might look at them and if they happen to get them early enough or if they happen to. And. Sit in a meeting but I believe those are the only two who really paid attention to the budget reports follows please yes Sir a man you know lack in most forms of government I'm sure schools saying why you got different brackets you know some or maybe for personnel some or for capital outlay you some more for just general supplies this lines of Hong and you know what we were speaking earlier in fact we've been talking about it all wrong you know all the different kinds of loans that we had and all that kind of stuff and and also the the different bills that actually might have been older you know during all this time that maybe some checks FOR hails things like that was any of that ever put it before them to let them know exactly where they stood financially at all times now therefore no. Thank you Mr yes Sir. Senator hammer you're the last one I have right here the somebody else gets so thank you Mr miss weeks well go I asked you if there was anybody wish you would of you know gone had blown the whistle on and you made the comment about the current situation but I got the impression they were maybe a couple other situations over your tenure as. You know in the position in. Are any of those M. I understand that right you had somebody else on your mind other than those affected by the current situation yes. Are they currently employed at the university. Know what I was what I was concerned about. Was some of the expenditures and on two other occasions I visited with the legislative auditors about that I tell mine I knew that I didn't know what they could do with it. But I needed someone to know. And that says closes docket come two a. And governmental body to look into it if it needed looked into the and I don't know that they did he that income back in reports may I didn't ask them to and. I just. I go off my get sometimes and when things don't look good and don't smell good I do what I can which isn't a bad thing because it's better do that then look back and regret later so for that I commend you how long ago was that on those two situations that you're talking about. There was one part about. The service at three years that you think about that. Did they involve the Kerr let the current administration doctor Jones. So the one that was about three or four years ago. The legislator of the auditors have changed Was the one before they took office and. I think my concern at that time had to do with Using. Foundation. Funds. To to pay for certain things but that's not the way it was being presented so I didn't know if. I was. Actions kind of curious where those funds were really coming from. And. And and I don't remember exactly I remember I remember those about that. But I don't remember the details but that was the a few years ago okay well perhaps as you think about you have a chance to chair would be willing to receive that information will follow up on that right we would probably we would we would look at the appropriate place to put that so can anyone other Mr. One other. Yes Sir thank. The the big chunks of money that you are concerned with did you happen to I mean big big chunks of money could be spent around a university like they can be spin around a business or things such as that and it always seems like they get noticed more so than the little chunks but did you have any reason to believe that any procurement policies were not being followed with regards to those monies that you mentioned in that list you're coming up with. I'm not a part of that was because. And the director of purchasing. Would have over Saul over saying that and I have confidence that he would do the right thing I know that through the years I would ask about doing something not that what you can't do that any would stop me and and it was just a matter of hello how we did some things but he always kept me on my toes and I felt comfortable with him. Over saying that so your concern was a so much that procedural processes were not being followed as much as it was a big chunk of money we're going out the door when to your knowledge the university was getting out financial. The street is that a fair statement yes okay alright. Thank you Mr yes thank you center and this week we appreciate you being here today we appreciate everything you said it's been very helpful educational also so thank you and if you all if you do you have a contact number for our staff were they eat emailed you about this meeting or something okay if you will just reply back to that then the. We'll go from there okay all right if you think of anything else that you want to share with us you feel free to send it to that email because it'll come it'll come directly to the chairs okay thank you ma'am. Okay at this time we're gonna have miss Pam Sheffield. Sheffield are you here. A are you you can come Ford. Miss me bones and she's not no longer an employee I think I would probably. Ask you to step step out there. Asking. Ma'am that's up to you I was doing that as a courtesy for you. You would then that's fine yes ma'am this great. Members are. Anybody think there will have any follow ups. No ma'am you'll be excused thank you. Michelle field are you. Good we appreciate you being here today if you don't mind our first thing it's our policy for what we're doing here if you don't mind standing. We're going to sworn testimony that's what we do. So if you don't mind if you'll step is your but known. On that my. It is now yes Sir okay if you don't mind fuel state your name employer and position. And then keep your right hand raised Pam Sheffield I am retired from Henderson state and I currently work part time at issue three rivers okay and do solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god thank you ma'am. Okay again I do this every time I know I'm sounding like a broken record but that's okay what what I do is a more issue a standard set of questions and then it will ask you if you want to give like a statement or something to the to the committee and then the committee members are all probably ask you some questions also so. Your retired from Henderson what what years were you employed there I was employed from October of nineteen ninety one to may thirty first two thousand nineteen. Okay and what officer department did you work in during those years it was I worked in the athletic department until two thousand one and then financial aid until two thousand nineteen okay. And I think this is probably obvious but what what what were your duties. I was mainly they when you were in the financial aid office yeah mainly the student loan officer my process student loans other types of a private scholarships university mark study of A radi of things through the years that I was there okay and who is your immediate boss during my time of retirement it was Christina Jones who Christina Jones okay. And who did Christina report to doctor Bret pal K.. All right you've heard I guess about this student debt that we keep talking about the forty eight hundred dollars yes Sir do you can you tell me what you know about that. probably fall two thousand eighteen is is when. State accounts was told to allow students to register for the following term if they that amount or less Everyone involved in that situation was shocked and appalled Common sense tells you if the students going to that from the current term the double by the end of next term so we were all pretty shocked about that decision And of course there was regular conversation between our office and student accounts as to whether the state has some a pending that would help alleviate those balances. What what do you think or what did you hear that the reason for allowing that to happen was. I was not given a reason I do have assumptions what are those if you were to leave a lot of it was to keep our enrollment numbers that. and also To buy time possibly for our office to process more aid we were my office was in a terrible bind that year we were very shorthanded Staff was as well as some of the staff we had had not had been adequately trained they were new so things were moving slowly in our office I think that's part of it was to allow us more time to process and to keep enrollment numbers at the I guess I've always been a little confused with is is there a benefit to keep in the in raw other than perception is there a benefit to keeping enrollment numbers up if you're not getting the tuition in I guess I'm always there used to be but I believe that all changed in is it's geared more toward Retention and graduation rates now as far as finding as. Okay and again as you just said that that that forty eight hundred dollar limit was that they would be allowed to enroll if I rate forty eight hundred or less there was also appoint were that was allowed to exceed the forty eight hundred do you have any thing additional about that or I mean I believe anything over forty eight hundred had to get higher approval student accounts could not clear them if it was over forty eight hundred I believe that went to doctor file okay so doctor pal had to probably approve each one of those would. Who and you said you think that who would know that. That to be true or false I mean your your Senator Scott frame and the director of state an account so. Would have been authorized by doctor pal to approve anyone. Within a with the payment plan on file. Forty eight hundred or less to register for the next term anyone over that amount would have been sent to doctor Powell or Mister Freeman would have conversed with Dr Powell and some form to get approval for that particular person okay do you know and and again I'm just ask you a variety of questions as other members line it do you know okay if he had the approach had to approval was there any type of qualifications are written qualifications that would say he's not approval for this reason or to now I'm for that for this other reason I have no idea no I do on that okay Mister Freeman would probably know that would that be correct yes Sir okay. You probably heard about these financial statements and will ask you about him to of course you've heard I soon about the. Misstatements over statements under statements whatever they may be yes do you have any knowledge or did you hear anything about any of that prior to. Legislative audit company in and and having their findings Nasser K.. Same thing with these unpaid invoices the checks being held any. Thing that you remember anybody saying prior to lake audit finding that out yes Sir can you tell us about that I know our office was under tremendous pressure to get a processed as quickly as possible to reconcile our records with the fans in the state to make funds more available to the university because there was a cash flow issue. And bills were not being able to be paid because of that okay. Who is directing that type of stuff for Hussein hold this checkered don't that I have no idea why do on that answer. What what members of management do you think would of. On the unpaid bills and and things of that nature who do you think would have known the most about that what names would. It do you mean who would have known there were no funds available to pay bills no ma'am. In other words if there was an invoice that came in however it may came in either my older delivered to the university of. He would've been brought into an office at that point somebody had had to say I'm not going to pay this bill. Or I'm not will pay this invoice who the who would most likely have been that person I'm not a hundred percent sure I know all invoices would have gone to the accounts payable Clerk you know the name with of that one just so that Caroline Hadley was our accounts payable Clerk okay I I don't know if she paid it at that point and the check went elsewhere for signature or whatever I have no idea okay but she was the one paying the invoices. Okay and that's fair. Okay that's really all the questions that I have at this point do but coming down here did you think well if they asked me to make a statement or say something had you planned on doing that. Or thought about that I thought about it and I'm I'm not certain yet so okay maybe at the end sure well we would appreciate if you do because that's that's what we're here for you know we're just we're investigative tap what body and in this situation that's all we can do you know when we're going through a lot of testimony some of it doesn't mean anything other parts will so the more that we can gather the more names we can get the more it helps us not only did look into the Henderson Situation but also to develop legislation you know in the future as it relates to other institutions so we've kind of got a multi purpose a reason that we're doing all this so we would appreciate it the and if you could we so I hope you think hard about that members at this time uh. It appears like Senator hammer you're up first. Thank you a home that you dealt just mainly with the student financial. Side of things is that correct. Yes Sir okay so your your whole world existed around the students get their student aid getting qualified. Yes and no our office. Had always been known for going above and beyond if a student did not understand their billing. They often will come to our office we would print their bill go over it with them talk about the aid that had gone on things of that nature so I was very Also very aware of student billing we work very closely with student billing okay Newport there how long since nineteen ninety ninety one twenty eight years and how long in that particular office in the student aid office eighteen and so. Were you aware of when it became a practice and there's been debate of what was practice what is policy were you aware when it became the the policy to allow that student debt to start to ask you laid up in order to retain those students I believe that was fall of eighteen. Okay and your previous time which would have been about sixteen years give or take you'd never seen that happen before Nasser seven hundred and fifty had been the mayor the maximum prior to that okay hundred fifty dollars we all even consulted in that decision given the fact that shall work directly with student aid about you made that comment about how would double the debt any year so when that policy practice began to be tossed around or did they just walk in the state do it. I believe there was a private meeting between my director the director student accounts and Dr Powell prior to that happening and He asked for their input and I'm not sure not sure what the input was and I'm not sure of their total discussion but it was after that that it was raised okay and. If if first student wants to get their transcript or there you know it comes time for their diploma do they check with use part procedure to make sure that they're dead is paid. Does the student check with us now does does administration or whoever in the process called and you guys and say Hey is all their debt paid before we give them a transcript Nasser this system automatically flights those students so if they attempt to someone attempted to print of a transcript for that student there would be an automatic flag pop up that says they owe money have you ever been aware where students transcript diploma was granted with them having student debt. I'm sure it has been but I couldn't give you any particular student okay and I asked the question we got the answers back but I don't I didn't get the I don't think I got the number the question that was asked last week is. How may transcription deployments of students are withheld because they've left the university and still it that when you left you know how many individual students head of head. Head debt no Sir. Okay. All right thank you Mr yes Sir Senator Irvin Europe ma'am. Thank you I'm right here right here thank hi thank you I I've seen echo with our chairman had said you know it's our job to craft policy especially when we see that there's a void of policy we see avoid a policy that creates a lack of accountability and a lack of transparency and problems that occur and particularly when it comes to fiscal issues that's kind of the purvey you know after the legislative branch me nods that's our role it's our jobs we take that oversight very seriously and we can't formulate policy changes that are needed and necessary to protect the taxpayers dollars if we don't have good information and and to drill down to understand what went wrong how it went wrong why it went wrong and then how do we then go forward and improve on those systems so that's why it's really important that the testimony happen in this committee with ya all everybody that has come including you so this one a echo with the chairman said in and and so you know so what you just answered what is that the policy on student that was actually change when there was a private conversation between your boss and the and doctor pal that correct in the student accounts director they did meet yes okay and the student accounts director who what their name is not Freeman government okay and so. The and what time did that happened what do you remember the month of the year I do not remember what year it was I would've been prior to that increase in fall of eighteen I believe okay Senator been before the fall of eighteen so the unit was a private conversation Allen E.. I get my years confuse added to but what it but but before that how had that policy been sets. See that you were operating under that said X. amount could be student debt in that account before they could register seven amps AS seven hundred fifty dollars or below right and even then they did have to go to the student accounts office and talk with them about how they were playing to take care of that balance and how long have that policy been and in place in the entire time I had been there pretty much and eighteen years yeah and now that's wrong probably ten issue used to it was zero at one point it was zero how was that policy than an act and. Was the process that created that policy do not remember that there was a process I believe it was just a. We're going to allow them to register with seven fifty but the board of trustees did not means we you don't nominal amount to your knowledge there was no process it that they went through in order to create the policy that was in place not that I'm aware of it was just we're gonna fly by the seat of pants I'm all knowing I'm going to make the decision they were trying to simplify the registration process for students whether they did it through proper channels or or through a an actual policy when the the balance requirement was zero it truly created chaos on campus on registration day the students if they twenty dollars were having to I would get their class schedule drop they would come see us and and we say yeah you have eight they would go to student accounts who would call us and we say yes they have eight and then they would go back to their advisory get put back in their classes that it generally created chaos and stress for for everyone involved which I believe is what why they instituted the seven hundred and fifty right but is there a time though so I know I mean I have kids and higher and so we understand how that works because there's a time you know not all your financial aid comes at a certain time you know it may come two weeks after classes have started or whatever so is there a time frame in there or is it just they can have this amount of money. In other words is there at that time or they can pay that down or you can give them a leniency you have three weeks you can go ahead register for classes but you have three weeks to be able to take care of that that that would there was no policy about that a lot of time students were able to carry those balances over. And when they received a refund from the following term they were then asked you know take this check but you need to bring us back what you owe us from the previous term. Okay so take this check would be if they were getting along check a federal loan by it or appeal re fund or scholarship refund but there was no requirement if they got a Pell grant refined there was no requirement that IT go first to pay off their debts federal regulations do not allow that cannot withhold old charges from financial aid that specified for this particular term. You cannot use this this semesters money. To pay for last year's balances not allowed under federal regulation. Okay so that brings me to another topic because. I have heard and I can't verify this but I've heard that there are people or students that will in role in higher ed institutions in order to get that money. And then not pay their tuition and drop out. And they're gaming the system. Have you ever had anything like that happen to you the school will with holes anything to them for that particular term that that I get supplied before they give a refund. So if they give you a refund that major bills paid for that particular period of time so was so what so so then what debt is that that they're incurring. What is the forty eight hundred dollars coming from then. Other things if if they carried one over maybe this state was an eligible for a for that term that they kept a balance maybe dating complete their a package for that term and that balance is still sitting back there I'm assuming that's what you mean. Well there's other is it food services that all combined into one and it is their bill is comprised of of tuition fees room and board if applicable they are allowed a lot of times to charge their books back to their Henderson bill so any of that could be included in that forty eight hundred okay so you don't have like a debit card that set up for the students that they have to put money on before for their use it in the bookstore yeah I don't have a system like that no it it's an electronic transfer. he just allow basically them to kinda spent allow that we went to dance yes to go to the bookstore charge their books and it's then apply on on their Henderson account their student account. Yeah that needs to be rectified because that's not a consistent with what happens and other larger universities to model I mean yet AT can't. That the okay I understand that okay will am I and I do appreciate it I think I have more questions maybe later but. There's just a there's a there's a problem and policy and how policy is created and FOR border there is very little Paul says written policy at Henderson state right and if it if if if the board of trustees exists for that purpose entities be utilized for that purpose there needs to be some transparency and accountability and the ability for students faculty you know parents families to weigh in on that is really important and then you as an employee. Do you need to be able to have that structure to. To be guided by a structure like that so that you're not responding to policy that's just being created in the hallway. I don't understand that. Not with this amount of money that you have in your responsibility you just cannot operate that way so I appreciate it thank you Mr chair. Representative Lowery. Thank you Mr chair. The I'm I'm somewhat having had children that if gone through university and and meet teaching also you see I'm somewhat familiar with the financial aid guidelines but. Help me understand if a student for instance received a pet Pell grant and and yes I've always heard that that tuition fees or with held first before any overage were re fund is given to the student. Does that refund of that is transmitted to the student is that occur before the date at which they could withdrawal. With no penalty. Now I know that there's a date where they can withdrawn they can actually have money refunded for the course what what is timelines after parted after it's after yes Sir they they are not given any kind of refund until after that did drop dead date well the census status the lock and dated charges are locked that's the eleventh class stay in the fall and spring surcharges are logged eight is eight eight is locked based on enrollment at that time refunds generally happen a little over two weeks later right at thirty days after school starts okay there is there's no other date after that were there subpart checks and and loans I'm sorry long refunds happen on the first day of class. Okay student loan but with Pell grants it's a layout Pell grants are different yes Sir there are different okay were you ever directed and and and again I I don't understand all the inner workings of financial aid but were you ever directed to reach out to students who may have had a previous debt they wanted to re enroll they had not previously applied for Pell grants was it ever to the role of financial aid or were you ever directed to reach out to those students and to assist them or to guide them in filling out a faster so they would be eligible for financial aid. It's hard to say that we were directed to we would have students contact us and say that they wanted to come back to school that they had an old balance. We could assist them if I have filed a fast the To see if they would be eligible for a for the upcoming term and if so what they have enough to cover that term possibly get a refund large enough to cover the previous balance a lot of times we directed them to private lenders to get the previous balance taken care of before they came back. Okay so the students could have on their own if they had a refund or an overage they could have gone ahead and applied that towards their balance owed but it was not required. University could not require a under federal guidelines. We couldn't use the money ourselves to pay that all ballot okay but the student to student was. Heavily encouraged at the time of picking up the re fund that they had this previous balance that needed to be paid. They were encouraged by your office to of a student accounts office to the council this okay I don't know if they signed any any agreement to come back and pay I don't know how that worked. Okay within we'd also had a you seem to be Burch I thought that maybe your the information you provide is would be very limited to a student financial aid but you actually seem to be very aware of also the student accounts and how that whole process goes we'd received previous testimony that there were conversations that took place between student accounts and Brett panel that bypassed the controller in the director of accounting are are you aware of that that by passing or that. For lack of a better word violation of of the organizational chart Nasser okay and the last question I would ask you is about the your your decision. to retire in may of two thousand nineteen was that something that it already been scheduled previously or did that. Come about for many concern pressure or anything related to all the financial issues that Henderson. Part of it was that I'll be honest I saw the train coming. Another part was the stress on my job we had my husband and I and and my family his family had gone through three years of family illness parental death so A lot of things my mom Was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma in September of eighteen. And I wanted to retire to spend more time with her. at that time so that was part of it the stress in my office had grown to an unbelievable level as well so it was a good time for me all the way around well thank you very much for you were much more forthright in answering that question I want to know if there was pressure from the university of but having having known people involved in financial student financial aid I know that it is it's a difficult situation it's one where you wear your heart on your sleeve because you want to do the best for these for these kids and I just want you to know how much I appreciate the work that you did working with those students and I'm sorry that that that Henderson lost your services because of the pressure that you felt there so thank you it was a combination sure I left my job okay thank you thank you thank you Mr chair yes Sir Senator Clark QB over to your left ma'am. Thank you Mr chair. Michelle field. The. What was the It's been eighteen years to the financial aid Henderson. The when these changes were made. What was the Artist. Thank or thing that most up to you. But I say that again one these changes were made. Going from seven fifty two what did it. It actually went to five thousand and then dropped to forty eight hundred I'm not sure so from seven fifty to forty eight hundred. in those changes did anything stand out as odd to you and if so what was the most on. The entire thing was odd to me. that is a huge balance I'm not highly educated at all Common sense would tell a person. You cannot run a business if your customers are paying a. and that's essentially what's happening or customers were not paying which means you run out of operating capital. To me it was odd the amount was awed that was a to be a. two to be sustained for any length of time. In. It had to result actually and less money coming in and again I'm sure you're not keeping the books but it just appears that would result in less money coming in. But I say that. You know because I have. Approved the credit at my store you know I have people myself and come to me and say you know these people this right check for five thousand dollars and ten thousand dollars all the time and we just all open countenance that that's really a good reason not to open an account because I'm getting five thousand dollar checks and ten thousand dollar checks in when I open my account then I may have to go chasing for the money and then when they don't pay they get mad. And then there ought not write me check for five thousand dollars and ten thousand dollars anymore of so what I'm saying is is that people who normally might have paid. When you allow hello five thousand dollar balance. Is it and again in your somebody sit there for sure it yeah if you if you fifty eight hundred dollars it's much easier to pay a thousand dollars. And get back in school than it is to pay fifty eight hundred sure right. Plus if you have to pay a thousand to get back in school. Purposes you don't have to. There and you can run it up to forty eight hundred. Then why not. True true I'm an as a guy who offers credit I have found. That's the mentality that lots of us have so it seems to me that that would have operated backwards brought in less money than more haven't sat down and looked at the books. Of. It and that comes back to. You talked about the refunds. People got Pell grants they got refunds. If you if the policy had been back to before the seven fifty. You got to pay. Okay and even though the federal government's rule is you can't we can't hold your money. To pay previous balances. If you have to be paid up to get into school. Then we can give you the refund but you can't get into school. Regard can't get the refund if you're not in school. So so we're just giving money back to people who could who could have and would have. Probably been paying their bill that possibly yes okay we'll see your the person who sits there expert what do you think. What a more likely happened. If it was still seven fifty is that what you're asking I believe they were found a way to pay the bill if if they could not have gotten back into school period. So those related but in this question and I've hated to keep Mister Barnes her all day. The end you got into this but I thought this was an important question. Is you said that. Books from the bookstore. Could be charged to this account. And it was paid. The bookstore the bookstore receive their money as bookstore see their money. And but the colleges left holding the bag. I can't see how that made any sense. The practice was actually started and again you guys have heard the the students that we service or economically challenged. it was originally started because of the mandatory thirty day hold on long refunds for freshmen are loan disbursements a lot of the students had no way to get their books absolutely no way so that's what started the yes let them charge their books put on their account over here because obviously they're not going to succeed in those first thirty days and after if they don't have their books up front that's where the process started and from there all students were allowed we would understand how the process started. I'm in a a businessman forty years thanks change all the time and you know we start fifteen hundred area rugs we loan out area rugs were were well known for that you come also in five area rugs home with you thank is more often one but also in fiber expense of rugs on with you didn't take me a couple years to learn. That is not a good idea just to send them home with you without a credit card. We did for a wall and then we learn what we were doing wrong and we fixed it was or not anyone there like a CFO officer not anyone there saying. All this is. There's a better way to do this. Because I'm watching that all the time and say in. You know if the cost were have a hard time in the rugs back if we get the credit card number you have forty eight hours call us or we charge for no of so none of those things were happening. No Sir. It even under the old CFO none of those things were happening. Which things. The charging and going on to their student account was under Powell it was not under previous if a okay so that's that's distorted lightly okay. Thank you Mr thank you Mr chair. Yes Sir. Senator hammer you're last. You're a thank you Mr chair. I'm a fan of many go there's about forty five hundred students with of the information sent me is interpreted right there's a ongoing text message here. Forty five hundred. H. issue students are either have the transcript Helder their diplomas held for non payment so do you happen to know or did you do you know if you tracked it so that it would show the number of students who completed their degree but they had debt and their diplomas were being withheld did you did you all get down that much in the weeds my office would not have tracked that for any reason. I'm probably the only offices tracking that would have been the registrar which would have been the the office to give out transcripts and degrees. The promise. Okay. Okay thank you. The Sheffield this everybody we think about that statement for me the what I'm sorry about that statement you're going to think about if I if I promise not to let anybody else asking more questions after that semi promise anyway you know. Honestly don't know what to say it's heartbreaking when it happened and Henderson state I don't know if it Had it been called earlier could have changed any change the outcome many I think we were too far gone by the time people realized I will say that I did talk with A board of trustee member on more than one occasion and more than one occasion I said to this trustee member. You guys need to ask questions about accounts receivable our students are not paying their bills and it wasn't just the students under this forty eight hundred rule it was is going back a number of years They were being aggressively collected. Which is a problem when you have a cash flow problem already and your reserve Sir dropping it's not a good idea to let those even the older accounts going collected you have to have operating capital and I actually did ask the CFO about the collection efforts at one point and was told well that's just not something that we do it doesn't reflect well on the university if we go after these people aggressively. The the just and the CFO your your referred to Brett pal right yes okay thank you I just want to clarify And in a way I get that were known as the school with a heart. at some point. the students have to have the heart right back there are customers they need to pay for the services they received even if we have to aggressively get that that money from them. I'm not sure why I got to this point I don't know that there was any Illegal behavior I think part of it was less let's try to hide this for a little while see if we can reverse it. see if we can make things better And I think once they realize they couldn't make it better that's when I started seeking employment elsewhere before they became unemployable due to the situation and Henderson. Okay I appreciate you making that statement so. Let me ask you something do you want to take another question you wrote you rather leave it to the I can take another I have one and I'm only allow one senator Irvin pressed her button but that's up to you because I promise I made to you so yes hi Senator Irvin looks like that the mission field not really a question okay I just thank you I I appreciate that it's it's just really a more of a comment not a question for you but you know it's not lost on me that that doctor pal you know. We are utilizing the productivity formula that he created. That's not lost on me and that is shockingly scary in my opinion. Shockingly scary. And and and and and we have some real work to do in the legislature and owls I will say I'm a mother of four children. I think it's great that we have universities that have a heart for students but you do not have a heart for students if you continue to allow them to. Rach themselves financially that is not having a heart for student I agree if you allow a student to encourage that you are hurting that student for the rest of their lives if you do not discipline your child if you do not set boundaries if you do not guide teach instruct assist help you are hurting that is not somebody who has a heart for a child. And I I appreciate that you do and I appreciate I think that everybody that's common testified here today has a heart for children but I do not think that some of these people that made these decisions have hearts for children and not I just wanted to make that clarification because I think. That year institution and the many people that work there do. But unfortunately there were some that did not in my opinion from from the reading and listening so. When you said that it triggers this comment in me so thank you for the allowance mischief failed thank you know that you came down here on your own time you retired it says a lot and like I say for not only myself the JP your committee and probably the General Assembly state of Arkansas we appreciate you being here today thank you may actually leave the building yes ma'am okay thank you thank you. Not for this lady I hope Sir I promised her that that that this was the last one. Do you have any idea about the date. Okay and so I'll say sushi was at the mall might fall of eighteen to bring in nineteen terms so I'll do that so that we can get that of record. Okay thank you Michelle for you. Mister Barnes do you would you like to come back now. Yes Sir my apologies for I was gonna try to get you in at one but didn't work that way so. Well I apologize for that we do appreciate you coming back let me let me ask you one thing even though you've left the but left the building as far as I'm concerned you're still under oath what is do you agree with that okay the moral well that to to work. Senator Clark did you have questions for Mister Barnes. Did and he of was here one of S. Meeks shepherd A hate that we delayed him. Up so long. But the it was someone else brought it up and I thought question needed to be asked. The. And we. The bookstore was paid. From the. College even though the college wasn't paid is that my understanding now. Where we're back to that same thing with that mac and I don't even know if its own is not on all right there I deal to thanks thank you Sir so we have not been paid for January of twenty twenty. I was just conferred with Renee Morgan our CEO and. The president of our. Albany so she told us that we have not been paid in January I did get some clarification on how things went the attacks while I was sitting there under the former. CFO Bobby Jones the students used to charge their books the bookstore up to six hundred dollars. And I think it's my understanding that they had a higher limit over it will be you and Brett came across the street he but that policy in their regardless of. what this with its Henderson's financially policy is you know we we sell the students are books we've had for you know ever since we got came on board two thousand ten we give them their books are rarely goes over six hundred dollars and then they have financially to the self we also rent books to the students and when we get when we give them our asset that we are on the hook for to come back at the end of the semester which we obviously are still recouping those books because they haven't returned the books but when we give the students a rental we get their credit card to put on file because we run our business that way as you would expect Senator Clark so that's the difference as the differences that's in clarification that I can add to what I've heard you asking the. Ladies just moments ago. Okay but the question was is and of course if it was not for the the financial regular irregularities at Henderson there wouldn't be a question but the bookstore got paid that we haven't papered spring of twenty twenty and it's here's here's what I can say it simply we cannot write. Did not set Henderson's credit women I didn't even know they're running up forty hundred dollar debt I had no idea of that so what Henderson sets their financially policy to be the students between them and Henderson what what Aramark or any food contractor any other private contractor makes an agreement Henderson that's between them and them with the do the students A tell a different contract. Well the difference is in again and I'm not trying to to pin the blame on the up and up but I thought the question to be asked the the difference is is that you were on the board and didn't know that there were financial problems. Thank you as the vendor we're getting. Getting paid A you were of vendor before you on the board and I I get that right you know because the knob they ask me questions about foreign around here all the time but I don't ever bid on any of it so it it creates a special. Situation where they ask you questions about sorry of but up before January twenty you were although the college didn't Henderson didn't get paid a lot the bookstore did. AM you are not you were not aware of the the problems. But the bookstore didn't suffer because of it. Until January of this year right and we still expect to be paid for that I mean like I'm saying degree mint between any vendor and the universities agreement from the vendor university the. The pop financially policy that the university makes their students is is a different contract. About you money in here would you money he would pay me no I understand of of just want to get the answer to the question thank you you welcome thank you Mr thank you Senator Clark. Senator hammer yes Sir thank you you've done business with the university since two thousand thirteen that a is that rising two thousand ten two thousand ten and was the university ever late pain you prior to this semester. Beyond normal expectation I don't track their payments you know the the institutional Relationship where we have on campus bookstore contracts historically has you know as we expect them to pay we don't I don't know if it's paid within forty five days or ninety days I don't know the exact time period but going all the way in the summer that's an exception I just honestly learned about that I didn't know why we had been paid for January's books because you know what it's it's usually a good that right one with the state institution okay and you became aware that the bill the semester was not being paid or your staff who handles this for you based on your previous test more sound like they handle a lot of that for you do you know when they became aware that the debt for the semester was not going to be able to be paid or was not paid. I'm sure it's when it's off when it all came to light that you know these the shortcoming like I said I still looks back to that that bill will be paid but I don't know when they came up with the no Sir okay and when you were a board member you get those financial statements that they give you that you on the board for how long fifteen months okay so you got a total how many me us yet how many financial statements do you think you got that fifteen month period I would guess the a few I don't need a two or three have I'm not exactly sure the number is okay and and you rolled off the board when April of nineteen of nineteen okay as so when you get those statements did you ever look at and just because you get you know from personal business in there to see if it was. Did you ever get down that the open we will once one time when like I mentioned earlier this morning when Brett pallor doctor Bret pal went through the slide show one time I saw the bookstore actually owed Henderson the money for the commission so I was like mmhm as I've been you know made one payment bills like so is already paid but far as your one more time in your question I was just wondering you know having of us all the I saw us had in accounts payable I never you know and A I can take care what I take care of and Henderson should take care what they take care of in though it hasn't worked out that way but and there didn't we didn't get that back down into the weeds answer question okay part thank you. Thanks for coming back to by the way yes Sir B. any idea when when your company invoiced. That amount is due in January did the invoice and in January did you it's S. that question it's probably you know because students add drop classes you know a few weeks after school starts I assume that goes into February and soon the invoices sent over there late February act I don't know the exact date I could check with check with how that with the time period is I would I would say speculate that it's usually sent an invoice them within sixty days of the first day of class okay and use the paid probably within thirty to sixty days after that. It's that's that's that's in my mind that seems to be a normal process sanity okay. Are you at liberty to say how much invoices for and if you're if you're not or don't feel complement will pressure on that but. I don't know the exact amount of this assume it's in the Bob a I don't know the exact amount I can give you a range if the amount is that the only you don't mind I just like to know I don't mind I assume a semester's worth the student's books are between three and six hundred thousand okay and and one other one other question whenever those students were or were allowed to charge Charger debt or charge those books at the bookstore was there additional things that they could charge also relate limited just to just books it was educational materials is how it's been deemed a under I I can ask Stephanie Herron the manager if there's any other exceptions that has ever been made or things changed since Brett Pollock came over used to be you know for ever educational materials only obviously you're not going to be let them run up snacks or anything like that on the on the educational material aerial that's why that's why I'm asking the question of there was I don't know what all the sale there's jacket Sir right under their general merchandise in correct the age issue So you're not the charts you're not for sure if I'm not for sure okay would you mind giving us that information. My CEO's probably watching this visual text me well if you are one answer about hundred five hundred K. is the answer and I'm sure she'll be pharma texture imminent okay us actually she probably won't know that because she works here in little rock as well so I have to check with the manager and see if there are any other additional things that are outside the normal education material thing that has ever been allowed you know that's what's most as I understood I'll stand at so it's within the and our leg audit department may have looked into that I just don't know so they may can verify which he sends also okay alright. Representative rye you have a question Sir yes Sir you're a okay un licious a pool point blanket. Freshman year. And a student comes in and they don't know anything for anything for like in the bookstore. Because they never have charged anything before that point. If they come in and I know they have certain amount sixteen eighteen hours of classes and they have a native of. Seven hundred dollars for the books. House of a clear that out to get that loan thank you just come in and say we want to charge AS or they have to go through the university of financial aid or I believe they got the financially department and we have our system has an API or technology to communicate back and forth to give them a credit you know if obviously if they're on hold or if they're open if they have a financial hold then they would not be allowed to purchase books on through our system Only course materials answer to your prior question senator Hickey. And thank you Sir thank you Mr chairman. Okay I have no nobody else is on the queue for a questions for Mister Barnes is anybody else have any because otherwise we're going to discuss missing a releasing whatever you wanna call it so. Thanks alright thank for the second time thank you Sir thank create you coming back. Okay the next. Person that we have on the list is going to be Mr ten Jones Mister Jones are you here Sir. Right you come on up here. I will let the record reflect that Mr the bone is going to be sitting back to the table so Sir you've or you've seen seen what we've done you already got the button push we appreciate that so if you don't mind if you raise your right hand of we please state your name and poured in your. I'm Tim Johnson the director of purchasing and Henderson state university okay and you get your right hand raised you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god yes thank you Mr Jones. You mean just a second here. Thanks for bearing with me I knew I had a sheet that had a couple extra questions we came up for you they're not very much out of the ordinary but they'll be just a little bit different okay could you tell us a how long you've been with Henderson and how long you've been with your current department. Finishing twenty eight years in August of this year. And. It's probably been twenty seven years that I've been in the purchasing department okay and again probably obvious but won't you tell us what your duties are exactly what you do. So securing supplies and services for the campus regardless of the dollar amount everything purchased for the campus comes through my office gates were involved with construction contracts professional services contracts. the whole gamut okay so not only purchasing but also the contracts right okay. All right I will start off the student accounts and you know I know that may be outside of what your department was but I want to know what you heard also so as you probably heard we've talked about this forty eight hundred dollars student account over and over and over do you know any information about that prior to let go to coming in right now I I was I had no knowledge of that other than the rumors that were floating around after the fact after it was put in place the practice or whatever you may call it right and it was as. I am mention everyone was appalled at that so it was very much talked about over campus okay. Anybody. State who who had allowed that to happen in that in those rumors. I thank the fingers pointed straight at bread on that it was pretty straightforward earn a. Okay to the financial statements with the misstatements over statements understatement same question on that if you heard anything about. Any of those misstatements prior to let go to coming into the possibility that some of Henderson state university's financials were not correct. No nothing prior to that thank. And then same thing with those checks and invoices that we keep talking about had you heard that the the financial situation was to the point that. Invoices we inhale checks for being not sent out had you heard that only after doctor pal laughs the campus were the invoices discovered that's when I learned of it okay alright. Okay. Do you recall any time that the bid process in your current position wasn't properly followed on a project that was required to be bid out. Now wait with all the rules Hey nobody's ever come into you and said world to this one a little bit differently or anything I could. No of. It may be they wanted to try sole source procedure but I'm very cautious of using the sole source so we made clear if we did that that was truly a sole source most sole sources don't exist frankly sure and I would agree with that so. Any certain project that you could. One is to that were somebody thought they might want to do the sole source to kind of raise your eyebrow. He thought why would they want to do it for this particular one no it's it's not uncommon for someone to say this is the only person that provides this product or the service but after a quick Google we can prove quickly that that was not the case so it's not an unusual for that to happen when an individual from a particular department has been discussing. With a vendor and the vendor kind of rain washes amend of saying that you know. Where the where the on one of the world during this right and I get accused of being born on will be that way here in this is no disrespect to you are even saying it happened Anderson but do. What I'm after though. Was there ever a time that you thought somebody may be trying to steer it. Steer it to a certain company a certain friend or something to that nature and I understand that sometimes it's tough to sit there but those are the top questions we're going yesterday right nothing obvious was never obvious to me okay and after the fact note then. Thank you after the fact one that you may have done or anything to that nature that you later thought mom I wonder about that. The only incident on that would be the John black case where there seem to be immediate friends share. With our people after we did the Vietnam after it was awarded that again on or a ward of the bid it was dead I had the evaluation team and it was legitimately graded or evaluated so. All the committee members would have had to be in cahoots and I don't think that happened sure that was at our if Q. R. F. T. R. P. on that okay. Whatever bits took place and and I again I guess I'd have to ask you for the right or the board of trustees were there were involved in this contract or are could you tell us the kind of the process of hal contracts be it hundred thousand dollar contracts be it three million dollar contracts be at five million dollar contracts can you tell us how that would transpire for something to get approved of through H. issue. Where you're right the the dollar amount made the difference in the type of dead so most of our bids of the higher dollar amounts goes through the state of Arkansas and approved here in this room can you give me a range on something like that. At the time gosh I think it's anything over hundred thousand dollars and I'm going from. Scattered memory right now but believes anything over a hundred thousand comes to you guys for approval below that now the bit thresher so is twenty thousand so anything over twenty thousand requires a quote bid of some sort. Anything over seventy five requires a sealed bid. And that's our bulk of our our business in those areas. I thought I'd seen something that there was an exception for higher ed universities were they possibly could to hire top contracts of a certain type do you know anything about that maybe up to five million as long as. And forgive me I'm not I'm with you on that there's there's something out there that that there's an exception to that is in statute I believe that the universities can go ahead and do it on do on their own as long as possibly the board. Has policies in place on how that will how that will proceed are you familiar with that or any and the reasonable as you that is whether or not you know if in it that's been used it Henderson state. Right on those rare occasions go to the rags and read through to refresh my memory and I have not had to do that recently so I'm sorry to say that I do not remember exactly the details on that particular law. That. I can assure everyone in this room that. We would study the rags. On any particular instant protective is out of our routine. And we would follow the rex. Okay. If you get back to the office and you've and you find were that particular Issue that I'm discussing or that statute of that's been used if if you wouldn't mind would you send that to our staff just so we would we could find that out know what particular contract that would be certainly appreciate that. That's really all the questions that I have been as you probably see always at this point kind of allow you to make a statement if you were to have one or Anything you want to say we would welcome listening to. I really dont the only thing I don't think there's any criminal activity. just believe now will say that. A previous ball spread pal was not a communicator and so things became a surprise to us a lot of times that we were able to deal with the situations. Honestly a as mentioned earlier my heart of hearts I think he had a plan that was going to work out. And his. Maybe not so abrupt departure he wasn't able to follow through on those plans and that's the only. Expiration that I can come up with on how this all happened. Okay. Representative Springer I think Europe. Thank you thank you Mr chair yes ma'am good afternoon I'm choice for anger Henderson alumni at thank you for that already give us some additional background information about yourself I do Sir to say that you were at the university for twenty eight years are you are Henderson graduate as well or would you come from yes okay graduate as well yes Dr that set a darkens yes yes yes okay all right Other than you already is that this second question I hate you review reported to the stockpile this way all right that is correct all right will you a member of the that executive team that made or the executive council the we've heard about no that would have been Dr pals okay so you weren't aware of anything that took place in that those meetings correct all right and then finally I heard this week's talks talked about these big chunks of money being spent so you would be the person that would have received those contracts and those be is can you give me some examples of the big money that spend say that's been spent during the last few years other than the recruitment she did mention recruitment and then she mentioned something about Casper. Guy Kerr what was that and to can you tell us about fails just six gave me the and it. Yes I believe those were the only ones we may have had a few others so I know primarily where the government relationship consulting's company. The admissions. IT consulting All right now I'm just I'm just not coming up with them but there were several John black a and that was an admission consulted and the the one you mention Argos inner the okay because. Well it's a double nine but I'm I'm not a race was the focus of these what they basically don't try to do student recruitment what I'm I'm trying to understand what what was the genesis of those total with the proposing to do with that Jim lack we're strictly admissions so recruitment trying to increase our Roman or enrollment management basically the Gosnell I think is the name of that company they were advancement consulting trying to help us raise money raise funds for the school okay for they out of this interesting they were yeah war they somewhere in the northeast I really don't know for sure they made regular trips to the campus consulting with the doctor are Jennifer Boyette. that was the main contact on campus for that consultant. All right thank you very much. Senator hammer. Thank you Mr chair thank for being here this afternoon regarding those of what was referred to bash missed weeks has of large chunks of money so did all those go by you for review that you're aware of or did any of them. By pass you that you're aware of. No they all went through the A process and came to my office okay and more awarding a court awarded accordingly. All right and so you shall know inconsistency inconsistencies anything that causes you concern. As far as the process of which the money was awarded right no no miss dailies there now I will say and I'll just bring that out now from the point mention but Mister Barnes earlier they portfolio in. Company just became just became aware that this week. Apparently we spent roughly thirty thousand dollars with that company in the same year so that should have been be it I'm trying to do some research on it to see how that came about and I'm kind of getting the inclination that it may have been a sole source that I did not approve it as a sole source so I'm still in of investigating stage on that. So which use me I'd be curious no I'm sure chairman might be carriers now when you find that out as far as what that you know fell into that category did the. Now you be would you give and in the room all day I think having you get hurt all the all testimony shall miss Weekes expressed some concern about the large amount of moneys going out no one of from her level of knowledge that the university was in getting into a financial bind did you did you have the same feelings that she did somewhere along the way and being that you're I mean you're the one that everything run ran by so. Frankly. When Dr when Glenn John was hired he immediately started hiring consultants of these various sorts and I thought that was odd that. We've hired years our president and I know consultants or are hired. Everywhere so it's not unusual from that standpoint that I would have thought he would have gotten a state where and then started trying to figure out where the consultants were needed that yes to answer your question I thought he started a little soon with the consultants. Did you express your concerns and your answer to Mister Paul correct mark Vaile yes did you express save your concerns to him as far as the trend in the direction the university was going with their finances. Now now as far as this. Topic that was prior to Brett pal but no I did not discuss any. To anyone with my thoughts on that. And and why would you not have done that. It was a personal. All that I had that it just seems odd to may the president would start immediately hiring consultants without. Testing the waters first okay do you know how many dollars were spent on consultants I have no idea is it was hundreds of thousands but I have no ideas and when we're talking about up just separate period a year period of time as well you know fails consulting firms ever made money back to the university. As far as contributions to the foundation anything like that I can't say one way or the other I just simply don't know the answer to that okay. Maybe Mr chair if you don't mind we can handle that as far as I'd be curious to know how many dollars in consulting contracts were spent and to whom they were contract to it with those of had to come by you though they all came by you right yes maybe I misunderstood the question I thought you're asking me do we get in return from those vendors I do not know that but yes I will have those numbers as far as what we spent with them. Okay A I'd like to see how much were spent at two who that was spent but would would any of those been treated as sole source for should there I mean what it would have been the normal process said Hey we need consultant for X. Y. Z. and it was put out and of fair bidding process Sir did he at the discretion to hire who you want to know now discretion there we did all contracts. Anyone in particular seem to get the majority of the business. I'm not sure if I understand your question I mean all anyone particular contract consulting get. More business and others. Well but we we did out for different consultants so once that award was made that particular vendor or contractor got all of that business for the sake of missions or or recruiting okay. Just what will pursue that but thank you very much for being here you're welcome. Senator rice. Thank you of. Joe Jett was mentioned the other day. About the scoring process from procurement which we've had some button legislature are you familiar with what the. The testimonies my you familiar with any. Re scoring of. Procurements that are supposedly the allowed. After mid returned in. Well on the RFP process in our evaluation committee the different evaluators will make their scores based on what they've read in my state thank them we get the committee back together to discuss to try to learn perhaps I've missed a point that the other one found vice versa so we have a communication amongst the committee to nail down is this really what we want to or is this your score accurate or not or do you feel like if it's accurate so at that point they have the opportunity to change their score and but no one's twisting arms a ministry Klay there. Choice to do so the end you don't know any controversy that was ever wrote a poem but when that was done on any particular contract no Sir okay Would any would you know of any. Thing that. Came through your office it per se and everything the are otherwise it would have been the contracts for special speakers was there ever any concert anything. The. Yes student What is the state activities board will hire particularly at the beginning of the semester different to activities it be. one popular one is a hypnotist we've had concerts we've had what what what approved figure for for the. Any of those via Twitter been heights figure. I'm just on a number out here but actually on the twenty thousand dollar range you don't know anything more than that. If there is I'm just not remembering and but that's fine You made a statement from but Dr grant pile. that you didn't. Correct me but. A ride something to the fact that you would need than colonias. done the he had a plan that. Work out it just didn't work out that kind of what you said. But not to pile right I just think he did not have the opportunity to finish his plan of action and you don't know anything that he benefited personally outside we've regular salaries or whatever I don't suspect that at all okay and I erode use when you said that they come to my mind I your many people and I'm not I'm not charge in this bill but many people stick their neck out too far. people do it when they borrow money to go to seeing no people that when they steal from their employer and a got good intention to buy it back to that and then again I'm not applying that here but that that statement concerned me a little bit and all that just it's it's not. From from everything I've heard and sitting through many hours this and in that in the audit to. Is it we use things very easily. I don't see how somebody that I keep being told the CFO. With a degree. It had. Access to many things and did not communicate with very many people bear many times. He can come in this presentation and it was just got accepted when you got. CPA set moment trustee board. And then we wind up for five million dollars in the home. So I'm I'm not quite as forgiving about being excuse when we're paying somebody good money. To do what they're supposed to be do and and then we wind up in this and again it happens and I don't know we don't have some other ones that we've got problems with I hope not to this extent. And and I hope is a taxpayer you feel like I deserve taxpayer we have obligated. Taxpayer funds the first second time. to try to keep this institution which I think is a great institution and I had a relative that winter like many here have grown or no people they were going down there but we all have responsibilities and and I appreciate you coming up the shooter but it's coming testimony but I didn't get question Mister Pyle her doctor Jones good it didn't know what I know will not. I could probably have a few more questions thank you Mr I'm in full agreement with your comment there. Sender Johnson. Thank you Mr chairman of Mister Jones thank you for your forbearance and sitting through all this I have a bit of a follow up over on some some statements in this week's made and represented Springer brought up Senator hammer brought it up and this has to do with these large consulting contracts and I believe you mentioned something a moment ago about one maybe being a government governmental relations company was did I hear that correctly yes was someone hired as a governmental relations company. Yes do you happen to recall who that was impact management okay we know who they are so that's okay the other question had to do with this Gosnell which I believe you said had to do with the development office as a consultant or a something to do with with fundraising yes there was a contract entered with them that is correct Indy you remember that and again I we talking about numbers but terms are kinda important too and and how people are compensated was this strictly a. We'll help you find people that might be donors type thing or was there a a dollar amount or a specific University needs that was addressed to you recall any details about that contract if my understanding is correct it was just too. Early teach us how to go after ninety not provide us with donors that show us where to find these donors within our own. perhaps alone not base or you know wherever that it was just to show us how to go after the money so it was for lack of better word a. The teacher development office had to do their job I mean that's probably it sounds a little harsh but I'm without trying to sound harsh that's really what I'm asking it was trying to help them do their job better shall we say is that correct that is my understanding yes okay but is best of your knowledge that farm did nothing to either approach or even identify prospects for donations to the universities that specific one submissive tech don't donors now they might like to this industry but they didn't say go after this person or company correct that's my understanding yes okay I just haven't come for that business I'm asking zero in on that because there's a lot of people out there that and course you know what an expertise that someone just like you that flew in from the airport but this is is a very interesting point to this and she said Dr Johns kinda rather than figured out what the needs were you can hit the ground running bringing and consultants was this Gosnell or anyone that did that type of work where they one of the early ones that he Reached out to resist a little bit later in his tenure that that do you recall that I'm I'm thinking it was early on but I'm I'm I'm not crystal clear on that right okay well again thank you very much Mister Jones and and especially for sticking around on Friday afternoons thank you Mr. Yes Sir Representative Lowery. Thank you Mr chair. I would ask about was looking at the outstanding the the accounts payable Our account yes accounts payable as of this the end of June two thousand nineteen this is a amount totaling almost four million dollars that much of which was sixty ninety days overdue and one of the the thing that really caught my attention was that the largest amount owed was to accompany this just listed as SSE and I've had to do some inquiry to find out what that was and it was a company that was doing janitorial and maintenance work. Rather than actually having employees hired to do that do you know when that contract was entered into with SSE. Yes that would have been with S. S. C. in two thousand eighteen the latter portion of two thousand eighteen prior to that however we. On the go back further. I don't remember the dates exactly but I'm guessing and it's a two thousand fifteen range where we hired Aramark would you to bed when out for Facilities management they took care of maintenance grounds house keeping the yeah the whole works hi there mark had a contract until bread came on board and we did a I repaired and went with the and it was it was seven years it was time for the contract to be and then SSE B. became was awarded to be at that point well now my understanding is that went from era mark to sit decks so subject so was different from SSE okay Aramark we had Aramark food service and we had air mark of facilities management at the same time at one point so you're right when Brett came on he got rid of Aramark both March from the facilities and food service and went with the deck so for the food service and SSC for facilities okay and do you know if the SSC contract in in your it's kinda interesting that actually the two largest amounts of food as of the end of June two thousand nineteen were just a tax so in essence C. so it didn't sound like that they got a very good deal house of taking over those contracts but was SSE of souls was contractor was that actually in a competitive bid six what had actually be a competitive bid and the other bidder was era mark or were they not wanting to continue now the the they did that we had I'm gifts from memory for five different companies that actually submitted proposals. Okay NSSE receive that in around two thousand eighteens which is October but I'm not a hundred percent sure okay now it my ears perked up Wally going on may have just heard something or heard incorrectly but did you make some reference to a sole source contract to portfolio on. Did did someone ask about that awhile ago right now someone had mentioned to me that it was a sole source contract but I had no prior knowledge to this company until this week okay and I'm not saying we didn't sole source that I'm just I have no memory of it and I'm having to go back and dig up files or try to dig up files to just perhaps it's something that which went under the radar and I just don't you know recall it okay willing going back and looking at files what have you found out about portfolio with the service is what the cost is to the university per year and and whether there were any connections to board members or anyone else what what have you found out in your research. Hopefully on is a it's like a social media for students and corporate corporate members that help build resumes help students and their recruiting for for future jobs basically networking with the the different companies around the world. Okay there's nothing connection that I found with any of the board members at all okay it is roughly fifteen thousand dollars a year I thank but it appears that we pay AD or two years one you're being in advance we wrecked paid roughly thirty thousand dollars I think it's two thousand nineteen. And I can't figure out how that would have happened yet I'm still digging okay okay and I and I do know that while some of my information spin in complete portfolio on was bought by a larger company canvas which may actually if you were to search on that you might find that contract in your procurement now we did we did it out the LMS and so we yes and it was campus that was awarded that contract. That. To my knowledge it was it was separate was not in with Candice right but it's for our guests moving for going Ford any payments for the portfolio project would have would probably appear under a canvas or or payment to the vendor of Candace but anyway okay well thank you for your answers thank you Mr chair. Yes Sir I I've got just quick question jump back to the scoring system I'm sorry what the scoring system that will talk talked about earlier as in as it relates to your if these who develop so scores almost year contracts has that how is that done like how you're going to school. white almost certain a certain amount for this in weight on the certain amount for that right determines that waiting well I ultimately do that I get with the end user to try to determine what it is is valuable to you you know is it important that day are compatible with another product or is it just important that it works on its own you know what I'm not the expert on this product they are somewhat of an expert so rely on on the end user to give me the information to to develop some type of a scoring sheet within or could be the size of the office it could be the Proximity to the campus any of those things so we are white we are ward a point system based on the importance of particular item sure and as far as doctor Jones or doctor pile were any of them ever ever included in any of those development of those scoring systems. No they relied on mine. By coming up with the scoring for those did they ever try to tell you we will wait wait one category have your or not. More or less on any of those was anything like that ever told you I don't recall it I'm not saying they did and and it would not I would not hesitate you know if if they feel like this is more important to and how many people have in our office then I'm you know that's that would be a legitimate reason nothing sure as long as our legitimate you know all I'm doing is trying to make sure that nothing was steered a certain way so the and I know your goal not think that but you know if there's anything that again I'm just trying to jog your memory to make sure there's nothing out there that to. In a way worse. We went in we may have thought well we're going to put. Twelve percent for this in this category but we said in now let's give him let's put thirty percent or something the in for that right so you can't think of anything of that nature no Sir if you do we send that to us or not thank you. Representative Ballinger. Thank you Mr chair I would just like to follow up on the consulting because I heard you say that he started Dr Johnstone of hiring consultants when the US start it as the president and up the Feb correct he started in two thousand twenty twelve right was that the you do you recall. Honestly I I can't Harry I don't think he's been there while you indicated that there was a period of seven or eight years eight years right so was doing the time so can you can you and I know we've already asked for this of but I'm just trying to see if you can get your memory refreshed are you saying that he did two or three of these consulting contracts in each year A what they staggered over this seven eight year period of time staggered but we started out with the in I'm guessing on this two or three immediately or or shortly after his coming on board and and what was the range of those I heard you say twenty thousand dollars did you did any of them go past twenty thousand all over a hundred thousand two hundred thousand. I'm sure they did perhaps the one four eight Vance meant That. I can't say for sure I would I could get that information okay so what year was that do you recall that company years after he had been there did you decide to get the contract for advance that would have been in the two thousand thirteen fourteen there. Okay all right then thank you. Representative rye you have a question Sir. You're a. Thank you Mr chairman yes Sir Mr Jones you know what from A taxpayer's point of view you know and that's what it's all about cell taxpayer money. This is the only university that we know of statewide that has these type of account. You know and and then you have the situation with the checks that are actually being hailed and not paying bills okay. That each quarter. They're trustees coming and. And no one knows about. The account. A no one knows about the checks on hold no one let shall know about this we didn't and I know that's not your particular job but don't you think sure that that's a little bit on the here's a. Let me say that this is new to us as well we've always paid our bills and that's one. Reputation I think we have in the state of Arkansas that people will do business with us because they know they'll get paid in a timely manner. The. Recent times in this is puzzling to all of this and I think we were maybe in a panic mode that. We had X. amount of bills but only had a small amount of money that we could pay them so we had to we had to deal with them out as best we could and we did communicate with vendors and perhaps we miss on that we would to try to communicate to let him know that we can't pay an Albert were good for it we just don't know we can't tell you wind we will put but we will so it's accounts payable. Would process the payment. But we can release it because it wasn't money in the bank there to cover it so I think it was better for us to go that route rather than send out hot checks obviously. Follow Sir Mr. Mr Jones do your you know not letting the trustees know about this so. Do you think that the reason for that was. Thank you the general public. Not knowing exactly what's going on because of embarrassment or something like that maybe it hurt the credibility of the college you know something is that the reason I can't say that I I don't really know and I don't know really whose responsibility it would have been to report it to the to the board is just. Those in the trenches are. Rolling up their sleeves and you know. Trying to make it happen so I I don't I can't answer that question without the I just don't know who would have been the one to say anything to the board what one more follow. it just seems like though Mister Jones that. That you know me and trustees like that that's there really held responsible to for the situation you would think that each time that they manage you know that they would know about that condition financially of their the university but no one lesson not. I totally agree now I will say after I'm guessing June nineteen two thousand nineteen I think there's been a whole whole lot more communication in that sense. Thank you Mr Jones thank you Mr chairman yes Sir Brittany wreck. Senator hammer thank you. You of. You implied that Mister Powell was trying to you thought he had a plan was trying to work his way out if you'd had enough time he could of righted the ship went when did Mister Powell come on as an employee at. Anderson. I don't know the exact date I'm thinking it was two thousand. Seventeen maybe and I'm guessing so okay. And maybe you're not one asked question Richard wanted to my actual want to ask you because a comment you made when he came on board was everything financially solid at Henderson state university of I mean the the student debt was not above seven fifty may have been lower Are you do you feel. Do you feel propria to answer that question student accounts I would not have knowledge of that I do know that we we have been on spending phrases from time to time and that's that's not unusual particularly in the summer months. So. We've always paid our bills as I mentioned earlier and come into my office when we do the requisitions into purchase orders if there's no money in the account it doesn't get process so we did not have any delays or any serious delays perhaps or may have been a budget transfer needed to get something. Push third. The it wasn't because we didn't have the money in the bank. Okay and A going to say this because it may become doctor welcher missed me bills. Opportunity to respond to but I'll I'll make statement to you the. I just wonder if if when. If when he stepped in for sure doctor Jones when he stepped in although I remember distinctly doctor Jones haven't come down here and give an account when he first came on board to Henderson for severe auto funding regarding tional contracts I'm not sure how long you been twenty eight years so you were there through that deal with the was back in two thousand ten two thousand level and you all had a pretty severe audit finding because of some misappropriation of misuse of contract money do you member that. Was that the ESL yes okay I'm was there yes okay but at that time you were this the universal is Opry solid financial footing and then doctor Jones comes on board it rocks along the Mister Powell Dr Paul comes on board and it seems like that's when the when the problems financially started. Do you have any reason to believe that. Mister Pollard Dr John Dr. President Jones or doctor Paul we're trying to do anything to cover up the financial condition of the university even though they may have a plan that if they would have enough time to stick around they would have been able to pull it out with anybody no one house of fear of financial distress the university was in. Speculating when we found the endorses or when the invoices were found substantial amount. I wondered if that's one of the reasons the. Ballot sheet was overstated and that to our accounts receivable were understated. To present to the board and then after the board. Approved ever tank then perhaps he was going to process those accounts receivables for payment that's purely speculation sure because you know if I'm responsible for getting something in financial you know straitche and I can come up with a plan how to get it out before you buy a figures it out I'm on you know I'm not going to that your center saying by but you know people human nature sometimes are prone to do that that if they if they contribute to the demise and then come up with a plan that thing get that plan executed long before anybody figures out what's going on then I think that's an issue and and so that's why I made that comment it was on the basis what you said he had a plan he never shared that plan with you on this. Okay alright thank you thank you Mr. Absent Lowry your. Bureau fan your last in the queue on okay thank you Mr chair I did have a follow up I was asking earlier about the subject so contract and and it's been referenced several times in previous hearings but no one is really been able to to clarify this. I know it's not unusual when there is a multi year contract for food service I know it happened at UCLA where Aramark had a contract they They put in significant money there you see aid to upgrade being able to serve food at the president's house my understanding is that Henderson market invested. At two point four million dollars in upgrading food service either the cafeteria or rule or whatever. Subject so of course ended up getting the the new contract. My understanding is that air mark was reimbursed for that two point four million dollars in infrastructure costs are you familiar with whether that was part of the procurement contract with Sodexho that that that two point four million would be paid back to marked by JEDEC so. Your correct Nile I don't know the dollar amount at two point four does sound accurate. The eighty I don't know the details of it if we paid so the XO arm skews me Aramark instead XO reimbursed us and them are allowed us to pay it off on or on the installment plan. But yes there was a lump sum of money that subject so. Came forward with to help us out and the return on your money earmarked did. There's a lump sum of money that air mark came originate with their mark right right and the other that so reimbursed or. Hey that so we could change companies my understanding as are not my understanding the reason for that two point four was to help us finish a dining hall that we were building. Okay and and the information that I have is that the university Henderson state. Reimbursed earmark two point four two point for whatever the amount was and that sit decks so has not yet. Re paid Henderson now I know we're getting into issues of paying out contracts more so than procurement which is mostly your area but you're not aware of we're Henderson is Henderson state is in the paying back of that. Reimbursement to Aramark no I have no knowledge of of that okay we'll perhaps the doctor Welsh might might have some information on that that he can can get for us and and that would have been a Brett issue there as well so Rita may have our new CFO may have come to grips with that by now but I I don't I can answer that question I guess is really what I'm saying okay and then the the the lasting on ask about was in it and again there's been several questions about the scoring process win the contract of for the banking services went from bank of the Ozarks to southern bank court and that originally before it was re school board there actually was a tie between the two banks and the war at least one of the members who went back and re scored said that it was in relation to them receiving new information about ATM services does the the southern bank Corp or per their predecessor bank of the Ozarks do they actually provide the ATM in charge of service for that is that part of their contract no the ATM that we have on campus is provided by the Hendersons well it's now two rivers credit union okay ready so in other words if it if a member went back and said that their their reason for changing their scoring was because of new information on that ATM charges. A clarification on ATM charges that would not have been anything that was part of that contract. That is correct minors if my memory serves me correctly. The ATM worse not we had asked for it but only as would be interested no if you provided. So the Bangor said we're only two miles down the road we will not provide it because of the cost of the machine okay so that should not have resulted in a a different score for either bank of the Ozarks or southern Bancorp the ATM fee so if someone listed that is the reason for going back and changing their score The witcher would you say that that subterfuge that they are actually coming up with a false reason for why they re scored. I would I would I don't recall that being an issue we did have discussion as I recall the contracts or the the both proposals. And as it went around the room and I don't recall something came up it wasn't AT and that indicated well you're right that's a better. Situation for Henderson so I think they get a better score than previously award or previously blogged okay alright thank you very much for to allow me to follow up thank you Mr chair. Representative Springer your last now. At the moment thank you this may not just a follow up to I'm I'm still back on these the consulting fees is it true that a doctor board what war yet wasn't she hired is the VP of development. Correct okay were you aware that she didn't have any experience in this the reason why of doctor Jones had to hire this consulting firm because she did have experience to do our job. I have no personal information on that I do not know all right thank you. Sorry. Mr Jones us all we have for you again we appreciate it you had a. Very important job at the university and hold from what we've seen here that. anything ever looks out of the ordinary that to you know that you've got legislators senators representatives that information can be given to an leg audit so or however if you need to do it to see appropriate way Sir thank you we appreciate you thank you Sir. Miss navo would you like to talk a little. Are you willing to talk a little. I'm willing to talk a little Sir all right will if you don't mind standing you're going to get this It to be sworn in obviously so if you would state your name important position my name's Elaine Kneebone on the acting president Henderson state university a ND solemnly swear firms testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god I do thank you ma'am. I know some people would ask me to do this. Senator hammer. A must to stepped out. That made he had asked me to. He won't ask your questions okay. And that you get two more so the way it works around here Representative bringer did you have a question ma'am. Let me try to touch you to so. You can try yes I do have one for a you're a how are you this new bill I'm fine thank you how are you get We your dog is kinda interesting how old there was apportionment of a fault regarding What is taking place at Henderson of what would be your response if you were to hear testimony that you had just a small cult ability regarding the financials at Henderson is did doctor Jones and doctor pile so you are part of it is well what is your response to it. I don't believe I'm couple for that the financial decisions. So you're saying that you weren't part of those meetings or or they were that the council had the executive team was was meeting and having discussions about the university it sale you want a part of it I was I I do have always served on the Executive Council since the time the doctor pal served. We we had meetings every Monday they're often three two three hours long. They often were about. Discussions that never resulted in anything Very rarely do we get in to being asked about our opinions about the financial situations or the direction of the university in any substantial way for example the the budget that was presented to the board in may of two thousand nineteen that never was presented to the Executive Council before it went to the board we never discussed it. Okay so you know up and so are you saying that you never had an opportunity as general counsel is the attorney for the. University to have to sit down and talk to doctor Jones about any concerns that you had with respect to anything. I have I had up to talk to about concerns that I had my expertise though is not accounting it's not finance and in a doctor pal had was a CPA and had you know all the those years of experience he presented himself as an expert and doctor Jones regarded him very highly and take his opinion above honestly all the rest of this so there were times were I would point out that I had concerns about things and I had been told repeatedly. And FOR other people after I'd ask the question well Breck house the smartest person I've ever known. Is that what this is response to you for your concern is that you meant now that you say you had concerns what were those concerns that you mentioned to Dr John these are necessarily financial they would be in my area of expertise they would be you know areas of risk for the university or legal matters you know we we be discussing something that I hadn't heard an initiative that I hadn't heard anything about and I'd say you know have we how we considered you know the. That this may happen or that may happen do we have insurance the hard we're going to talk to people about you know getting releases and and things like that things that were in my and my wheel house. and even those even the area of the concerns I had in my area of expertise sometimes were not and just fell on deaf ears so let me just ask you this four was your office located in conjunction with the president Jones and CFO Powell we you all on the same floor in the same area we are in on all the offices and for that the vice president finance administration the general counsel in the presence officer on the same floor at the what my call so you all right down so you could walk out of your office a few steps and be in his office and vice versa. Ninety minutes it's a it's a it's a good ways and and the way and Dr Jones office was you know he had you met miss Weekes so to speak to talk to him if you want to talk to a person just to stop in to his office you need to speak with hard to see if he was available and I know I could text in though and I to if I needed to speak to him architects men say do you have time this afternoon so I could I mean I had access to him. That doesn't mean I always could have influence with them all right well hopefully I'll talk to you tomorrow at the alumni meeting if may I'll have a good day. Representative Lowery. Thank you Mr chair this Kneebone at it last time you were here and I did not know that that we would have enough for another opportunity to to ask questions of you so I'm glad you're here to do that have you had an opportunity to to refresh your memory of the situation that I asked you about previously related to the affidavit regarding the The suspected met the meth lab that was done in the science building that led to the building basically having to be a refurb in my understanding it's going to cost anywhere between eight hundred thousand in a million dollars to be able to make that building usable The affidavit I had pointed said that you you were aware a year ahead of the time that that final damage was done to the building if you been able to go back and refresh your memory or review your notes of the conversations that you had with law enforcement and with drug of the drug investigative forces related to that original That original. Communication with you about the suspicion that math was being manufactured in the lab at at Henderson was or the communication that I received was not that math was being manufactured in the lab the communication that I received in December of two thousand and eighteen I believe was that one of the faculty members involved later on had left suspicious materials at a rent house that he had moved out of. And that the landlord was concerned that they may be making may have made that there that was reported to doctor Jones doctor Jones asked me to look into it and that is when I got in touch with the sheriff Clark County okay in did they follow back up with you as to what their findings were at that location. At that location no they did not there was no follow up are you aware whether there was follow up with doctor Jones I'm not act I remember calling the sheriff twice and I did not get a response okay. And it in again the affidavit that I had pointed out that in that ARE initial reaching out to the drug force or to the sheriff to do the investigation that they actually did come on campus they did me with a faculty member and they did go to the lab and find residue consistent with the manufacture of methamphetamine. You do not recall anyone following up with you and saying that they found that residue that found that evidence in the science building there at Henderson state no that's not accurate my understanding is that what when they went to the lab they for this accurate according to the affidavit it may not can we. I really don't like that back and forth not being disrespectful but she was trying to answer so I'd like to your wish with your question she was trying to answer so. Under is that okay Representative our that's fine that's fine thank you Sir if you I want you to go ahead and finish what you're also my understanding is what they found in the lab was a precursor chemical that can be used to make meth amphetamine. I understand now that that having that chemical in a chemistry lab in an academic setting is not suspicious because no other elements of the crime were at present and that wasn't residue it was actually a chemical that was found in the lab. Which the bone your testimony last time was that they did not investigate the lab on campus that their investigation was limited completely to an off campus location so you are now changing your testimony from the last time you were here yes Sir I did not testify they did not come on campus yes she did well right here I asked you about the affidavit you said that their research or their investigation was totally off campus no my response was I think you may have asked me why didn't involve anyone on campus the reason I contacted the sheriff's office was because the report that I had was that it was an off campus activity that was suspicious are they don't have we don't have a drug task force on our keepers that can go and work at an off campus location our people are authorized to investigate crimes in our on our campus so with we needed drug task force to go look at something that happened at a off campus rent house we needed someone that was authorized to do investigations within the county. Mister chair at the at this point I'm going to finish my question but I'm going to request that if we have a subsequent meeting that we request that the camp at the head of campus security at the Henderson state university be allowed to come and answer questions about this whole issue because my understanding is his testimony would completely contradict what we've just heard. Point taken I'll have to consider that because what we have been charged with here in and I've allowed a lot of at latitude was as it was related to the lake audit's findings that I don't remember if that was something that was within like audit's findings so it it but I understand that Mr row I would just with with all due respect we're we're talking about financial loss and this is been a the horrible perfect storm that we've had these bad the audit findings we've had these misrepresentations of financials and now we've also at what may have been A sure king responsibility that's now going to cost Anderson state another million dollars and that's why I feel like it's relevant okay and I definitely understand your concerns of you and I might talk about that all flying the all right thank you see if that's the best way to handle it or if there's another Avenue so I'm not saying we won't actually this was I was hoping was going to be our last meeting in a lot of some of the other names and things have come up I don't know if it will be or not so okay we'll but we'll talk about all right that's okay thank you represent Senator Hickey may I make a comment to at at the figure of eighteen hundred thousand a million dollars for remediation of that building was thrown out I do not believe that's accurate I can provide you with what we expect will be the cost of the remediation that building from those issues if you would like. At this time I'm not requesting that thank you so I appreciate you bringing that up but let me let me ponder on all this I don't get it unless it. Senator hammer. Thank you of a couple quick questions the. When when you had the meetings where you expressed your disagreement with the direction that the university was going in with the doctor Polland president challenge do you do you keep minutes so that are do you take notes of that or are you totally reliant on somebody else backing up what was said in the room I believe they're they're it flora weeks who was here earlier I've she does takes a minutes sometimes I take notes and sometimes I don't it just depends on whether it I mostly listings I need to do so if it's just discussions where I bring up a point and it's not. He did I I don't necessarily have minutes of that or no to that on of my own okay now question yeah just thinking that if you had that in writing the B. good to see that that clear maybe some of the cloud and then I wanted to ask you about something last week when you testified. I got the impression from your testimony that you were kind of call upon is chief legal counsel you know when they wanted you there but when they didn't want to their they did they didn't call you. And earlier in testimony today when it comes to the and I'm a called the executive committee that team I got the impression from testimony this morning date you were at those meetings is that correct yes those are the executive council or their standing meetings they were and actually still are on Monday mornings and but. What I'd say is that the last and two and a half years of of doctor Jones is presidency not much business happened there they took up a lot of time in those a lot of talking but there wasn't much substance right and where I'm going with that is it appears that the board had information withheld from them. You know be IT that they should be as quick to do those we are here in this committee but they had information withheld from them that unless they would ask for they would know it's almost as though based on testimony day I get the position taken the position that was withheld from them purposely that's my opinion So in those executive meetings. For that because you were required to be there you weren't always at board meetings is that correct now she's late for meetings you usually bored me yes Sir okay in the executive committee meeting was it ever reason was it ever revealed up till and I can't I guess the date would been nineteen whenever they could make payroll that those kind when the lid came off the same in all those executive meetings leading up to that was it ever disclosed to the executive members the financial condition of the university. No. Nobody on the exact team ever asked about it ever inquired about it part of the heated discussions you had with them or the discussions that you had with them was that ever any of you saying Hey we're in trouble here or none of the other committee members express that concern to doctor challenger. Mister Pyle we didn't we didn't talk much about the financial condition that would there was some discussion about how invoices were being paid because I remember doctor pals saying that they're being paid by a due dates when someone asked you know I had a good that they're waiting on an invoice to be paid in civil war we are paying wanted on due dates now which makes sense to me and but there was and I need to look into here is the financial condition of the university here's where we've got some challenges here's were you know things are going well and. Even in budget meetings. There wasn't. Open information about where we really work. Okay because based all test me day with miss weeks and everybody else where I'm where I'm put the plane down is on Mr Powell in doctor Jones in because if the executive didn't know and and technically shame on them that they didn't get in the weeds entity perform on executive I want to you know I want to know the finances you know that it just. Escapes me that the exact committee didn't know the board didn't know. Miss Weekes testified that she had got feelings missed John says fide men to go about the amount of money going out everything that it was kept that quiet until the lid came off when they could make pay roll that's that's just what I have. Little rock hard time swallowing that they could do that good a job of hiding it that will but all right thank you Mr. Thank you but I want to can go just a little further based on that other testimony in what Senator hammer animal ask you should some of the same questions that I've asked the other staff members let me ask this first you is general counsel at that time. Is that going to preclude you from answering any questions about the student council or the financial statements or the invoices I don't believe so but if we hit on something that I don't think I can all I will advise you that okay all right now I'll ask you to explain why if you don't mind at that point all right and I heard was Senator hammer said and I heard what your answers were but. They were quiet yes and no for me that I I would like to get a record so during those executive. Council was that what that was called yes Sir did you all discuss the forty eight hundred dollar balance prior to like audits of the student accounts did you all discuss those I don't remember the discussion about that amount okay so I just know that at that the NO okay alright. Or any amount. As it forty eight hundred I heard that there was a five thousand dollar in it drop back to forty eight hundred did were you aware. Were you aware that there was an increase during those meetings above that seven hundred and fifty dollars it used to be the standard practice or policy or procedure whatever we want to call it were you aware of that students were allowed to be carrying a balance no okay. So whenever it got to the point that There being eight they're also being exceeded you would have known that either would that be correct now I didn't I didn't learn of all that and sole last summer when we kinda added take the reins and try to deal staff and you you or during that executive council meeting you didn't know anything about well maybe our financials that we're giving the border not exactly. Correct and whatever I say exactly correct there was a point that somebody brought up earlier may have been Senator hammer I don't remember may have been this pair I don't know to relevant but somebody said well if the invoices were being hailed. If the voices were being held I guess that financial statement may have been correct. May have actually been correct for lack of a better word because that it's not actually been paid out yet were you aware of any type of animal called a scheme any type of scheme or otherwise that was being used to keep those financials one way or the other yes Sir okay and as far as the checks checks being held invoices. Invoices being what. Not paid to checks being held in the vault did you know about that part a leg audit any way shape profession no the first time I've ever someone asked me about what I'd had any of my invoices to my office being held within the summer last summer. And and I the wait general counsel doesn't the offices and by much stuff so that wasn't I hadn't dealt with it personally and it wasn't until July July June that I found out that there were invoices that we're just doing that June of what you're just so I can two thousand nineteen that owner okay alright okay thank you ma'am Richey rye Europe Sir. Okay. Got a question for you A Mr pallone and Jones they're no longer with the university yes Sir they are no there they are no neither of them are employed by the university any longer okay race to this in two thousand nineteen those reporting. That that the university was in good condition okay and they gave us a raise out to the people at the university. Okay were these two not involved in the amount of money that the race was affecting any fit wars. Of what does not affect their buyout amount that they got for future years and also their retirement. Let me clarify represent right are you asking whether the did they receive that raise where they one of the people that receives that's one question that they were safe I don't believe they did I'm not certain because I believe most of those races that were in that budget for faculty members okay thank you but if they did we sure would like to know that okay because that would definitely have some impact on these folks is retirement okay will it we know that. Thank you thank you Mr chairman for let me in there yes Sir. Rep to Springer you're the last one I have on the list for to at this time yes thank you I just want to follow up about the development position. In the end of the funding that took place with respect to that I understand will you on the committee that hired of the development of BP no you don't participated in a at all no I did not and doctor Jones in ask you your opinion are issued to interview of sitting in a with him on any of those discussions no there may have been an interview for all of the executive council with the the candidate I think by the time and that happened there was only one candidate left I believe I went to a I can't this forum where the the the one candidate did present health okay so limited let me just follow make sure I understand what you're saying so you were not in the executive council meeting or that person was interview you did not participate in that meeting well the way that interviews work for vice president level positions is there's usually I like two days of interviews and there's all these different ones and so there's usually a slot for at U. executive council to have thirty minutes with the candidates I I I expect that probably happened with that position so I knew there is my question I I don't recall if I was or not okay and I do remember going to and at present a presentation by Mr that during her interview days so you've never seen heard resume or her visa. I don't know if I have or not all right thank you. This neighbor on that's all we have thank you Sir thank you for coming with the employee's exit in there and we really do appreciate you answering those questions at the end also thank you Sir thank you ma'am. Doctor well. You coming by yourself for Mr Broadway coming with. And stand. Four so you're gonna get to do this to. All right of an if if you would please raise your right hand and you state your name employer imposition. Chuck Welch president the Arkansas state university system okay do solemnly swear from the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god I do thank you Sir. Well I guess we'll just let you make your presentation and then I'm sure might have a two or three questions you have never retail at a be fine senator and I appreciate the opportunity to. perhaps give a an overview of the steps that have been taken I believe you should all have a copy of my report and just as I. told senator Hickey last night I promise I'm not going to go through all seventy seven pages the vast majority of this is exhibits but I did want to go over a few things that I think We have done that address some of the steps we've taken to deal with the high risk categories that we identified upon arriving in assisting Henderson state the first is just sort of a background on the interim management plans this all started last July when we were asked to come in and see us that it was done through an emote you were we would provide services as if Henderson was a member of our system ultimately in December of two thousand and nineteen that MO you was converted into an actual merger agreement we knew at that time that was probably going to be at least a year before we would be able to finalize that it just takes a long time to get through the higher learning commission which is our regional accrediting accrediting body to finalize those mergers and so we put in an interim management plan where the acting or interim president would report directly to me and also where I would lead the search for the long term CEO of the university and so we've been doing that since December six of two thousand and nineteen. Student accounts receivable I think we talked about a lot of that but obviously when we first arrived that was a major issue we assisted the university in developing two new student accounts receivables policies they're both in the packet that you have and the reason that there were two one was for new students and the other was for the students that had been allowed to accrue those large balances we knew that if we tell those students that had five thousand dollar plus balances you've got to pay it down to zero by the start of the next semester we would never see him again we knew there would have to be a step down sort of stair step type approach in so we implemented that to assist in that collection and so those are in there they are board approved with the prior ones had not been board approved. The third thing that we identified in noticed was that there was significant in sufficient financial reporting to the board and I think there's been considerable amount of discussion about that about the board not having the type of information that they should have a we wanted to provide you with some examples of the things that we have done since coming on to the scene to assess the first which is the fourth attachment as the operating budget parameters and templates we really help them with the way that we wanted the budget to be constructed the types of assumptions that we wanted to be made that's very similar to its actually identical to what we use for a issue system campuses a cash flow pro forma template I'll be honest this is not something that we have in the a issue system because cash flow is not an issue on any of our campuses but obviously it is an issue at Henderson and so we had to develop cash flow pro forma so that we can show the trustee's every time we met what the cash flow situation was looking like the quarterly budget report which they didn't prior we have is our a issue systems existing quarterly budget report we provided that to them as well so that again we could have a continuing an ongoing understanding of what was happening with the budget what challenges might exist. The system financial reserves policy this will be something that Henderson would come under as soon as they are a member of our system but just wanted you to see it something we report our board on an annual basis so that they can see day's cash on hand as well as the appropriate financial health ratios and so like you there would never be again a situation where someone said I didn't know I didn't have the information and it's part of our standard operating policies now and then finally is the three to have million dollars in cuts that we made or assisted Henderson and making in the fall and I wanted you I know there's been some discussion about that but we provided you with a document that really clearly outlines what those cuts and tail obviously the biggest piece of that was the compensation and retirement cuts. For the employees. We identified health insurance per fairly quickly as a high risk category for Henderson they had made the decision in two thousand and eighteen to go to a self insured insurance plan not only was the plan not performing to the point that it was in the red but there was also no reserve fund so if you had a major illness there was nothing I can tell you that our system self insured policy in our benefits administrators they beget they begin getting very nervous if we even get you in the ballpark of what is determined to be the appropriate level of reserve and we had no reserve at their Henderson had no were reserve at all we made the decision and worked on their behalf to take that back out to get bids we did get those bids we were able to transition Henderson to a fully insured plan at a cost that was less than the self insured plans obviously that reduce the volatility of that that and and their exposure but that was there from health insurance standpoint that change took effect in January of twenty twenty. Henderson did have a for all hotline they did have a way for employees to make reports that they felt like something was wrong or that something needs to be addressed but the way that they're hotline was set up it actually went directly to the president among others and so we have discontinued that hotline and that they are now a part of our issue system hotline our system hotline goes directly to our internal audit division and our trustee who is the liaison to internal audit I do not see those things as they come in order the chancellor's or any of the of the campus personnel it goes directly to internal audit into that trustee in course internal audit is a separate entity and so Henderson we just did that recently went within the last couple of months but that is now in place so that the police would fill up hopefully more comfortable with making reports of something is there legal assistance and internal audit and I won't go into great detail on either one of those but we spent a considerable amount of time assisting Henderson over the course of the last ten months or so with review of contracts with review of. You know the different types of services in programs that are provided we made very clear in here to you that if or wind we hire a permanent CEO for the campus that the contract template will mirror the contract template that we use for the issue system which does include all appropriate four calls language and things of that nature to give greater protection to the university and to prevent what happened before and then also certainly internal audit to and and Henderson will be a regular part of our audit review process when we when audit goes in and does regular reviews based on risk management identification and also sometimes if there are request made as the result of a hotline report. Academic scheduling program review has been a big issue that we've been focused on since early on it arriving at Henderson a couple of years ago our system engaged in out working with here on consultants to develop an academic cost accounting model and you've got at some my pages from a power point slide to give you sort of a general definition of what that is but it's a way for us to have a much better understanding of instructional costs and water driving those and perhaps where they are getting out of whack a little bit and so this is something that we have applied to Henderson to help us understand exactly what has been happening as you can see a couple of those bullet points that I have in the spring of two thousand and twenty this most recent spring semester data analysis and that review and that work through that academic cost accounting model actually allowed us to reduce spring calls by three hundred and sixty almost three hundred sixty four thousand dollars over just one year ago which is a considerable amount of money for instructional expenses and one spring semester we have also done some analysis to faculty compensation and course related data for summer semesters and learned that we had a number of sections a large number of sections that were not profitable and so through some re shipping a reworking of that we have already determined that we're going to be able to save approximately one hundred and twenty thousand dollars this summer one only not summer to that doesn't include summer to as well and so when you think about that from the standpoint of what will be able to do with on going fall spring and summer semesters that obviously adds up very quickly as a considerable amount of money that was being expended by the university I could tell you the primary reasons for that were that. The amount the number of course sections that were being offered was not tracking with the number of students if you look historically over a five year period at the number of new students we had verses the number of new sections that were far more sections than there were students that wasn't aligning and then we were allowing Henderson was allowing a number of sections to what we call make or run and operate even though they had a very small number of students but there wasn't necessarily and a a moving chart in terms of what we paid a faculty member so for example you could have a faculty member receiving the full amount for teaching of course and there might only be two or three students in that course and so we change that now to from zero to ten the faculty member would be paid per student per head and then when you get to that ten or more which is simple you gonna be at least your break even point then it would go up to that full amount of the compensation if a faculty member said I don't want to go that route then you just don't allow the class to make which is something that we've had happen in a number of the situations that are other institutions and then finally as a part of this is academic program review in this is on going but we are doing and comprehensive and thorough analysis of the entire inventory of academic programs that are offered by Henderson to determine their ongoing viability are they enrolling in that students are they graduated enough students what is the cost per student or program how many faculty members do we have an or they're too many for each particular program and so we will be working we have to go through shared governance steps and certainly want to do that but we'll be looking to make some final decisions with regard to what that long term inventory looks like to ensure that the programs we're offering or both in demand and our programs that that are either profitable or we understand why they may not be as profitable obviously some of your higher calls programs that also have a limited number of students that are allowed to be in there are necessarily going to be as profitable as others Henderson state I think this is been said several times did not have written bylaws prior to September of two thousand and nineteen the board Henderson board did approve those at that time they are substantially similar to the issue system bylaws and so that was part probably done on purpose but they do now have those bottles. The interstate prize resource planning consortium we are moving all of our campuses on to the same ERP system that is the system that that effectively operate so all of our business processes that includes student records that includes you know financial aid that includes business office things of that nature I know our friends at legislative audit will be very excited to see a new system put into place there's been set may have mentioned as well as I have mentioned that the system Henderson had in place was inadequate for the work that needed to be done I can tell you that system pole ease the old name of it and many institutions of had it through the years but it's it's it's a dos based system it is very old and outdated and so will be moving them onto the banner system that all of our system campuses will ultimately after the up front implementation costs are covered Henderson and all of our campuses in the system will pay less for that system then they're paying now for the system that they have in a lot of that is just because of that volume purchasing and some of the collaboration that goes into that not to mention it'll be far easier to to deal with the processes of the university. financial statement preparation I just wanted you to be aware of what that will look like moving forward of course the issue system produces the a consolidated financial statements and so Henderson will ultimately be a part of our consolidated financial statement process and I just wanted you to know that we have a number of templates that exist for the preparation of the institutional financial statements and then those go to the preparers of the call of the consolidated statement as well as my system financial team it's so multiple eyes look at that we have lots of different ears that are looked at we rarely have any types of the errors that you've seen in this report and so be a very very different process for the way financial statements are prepared moving forward we also retain the services of an external accounting firm to do. It's been called in audit it's been called a consulting report but effectively what we wanted landmark to do was to come in and assist us in just more external validation of the policies processes protocols things of that nature that need to be addressed and it's still an ongoing process we've gotten some draft language from them we don't have the final report but what they're finding it is that you know the things that we wanted them to a ballot where are some of the personnel are were some of the the does the design and implementation of financial processes and controls that need to be addressed and then they did some testing of the effectiveness of those because we want to make sure that all of the processes that are happening there have been fully vetted and identified and we're we feel much better that after this report we will have identified those critical processes and protocols that have to be changed moving forward moody's investor service I think it's important to point out that you'll recall that last summer Henderson as bond rating was downgraded to levels once they sign the MO you with us movies agreed to stabilize that until further notice and then when Henderson made the final decision to merge with our system movies released at issue or comment that That called it a credit positive for Henderson to join our system and talked about the system oversight that's led to strong fiscal stewardship are other campuses likely helping to restore balanced operations at Henderson state then the last thing was the merger effective date as I mentioned earlier we expect that to to be expected that to take about a year that still the case there's typically eighteen that comes and visits from the accrediting body obviously they're not going to come and visit this year they'll be of virtual visit I think it's June twenty second twenty third they will then compile a report send that to the higher learning commission board of directors and they will make a final determination on the merger that we expect that to be at their November board meeting and then we would still have a few pieces of legislative changes that would need to be made at the beginning of the regular session none of this is different from any other merger process that we've done it's just something that has to be done and in the course of finalizing these types of arrangements and so with that Mr chair I will stop and I'm happy to entertain any questions about any of that or anything else that maybe is on your mind. Couple from a if you don't mind doctor will of landmark the company I what are called sounds like to me they did your due diligence is what I would refer to that is did they give you did it was there any other surprises that we've not heard about here that are talked about that in the off the that popped up no Sir they did not in fact I think they're terminology they use with my CFO if they did find any smoking guns or anything of that nature they did find a lot of things that quite frankly probably just been done that way for a number of years that they felt like more proper controls not necessarily to suggest anybody was trying to do anything to various it was just it wasn't probably best practice and they want those identified in we already identified some of those but we wanted to make sure we had a full exhaustive understanding and the other reason for doing this was to try to have some understanding of is there something we're missing and then finally they did some consolidated financial reporting just for our board to show what bringing Henderson into our system would do to the overall system that position and things of that nature just so we would have some some of that from an external the point that was calculated okay and the merger between a issue an H. issue is there any way to speed that up I don't think so senator we've had a couple of preliminary conversations the problem is just with the accrediting agency and it's up I'll be honest with you it's a extremely frustrating process for me I mean you've got a situation where an existing state institution is joining another existing state system and both institutions are fully accredited I mean it really shouldn't be like this and I've express that to the point that I got hung up on by one of the accrediting agencies attorneys when we were doing this with our last institution but we're still gonna look at a couple of other possible angles but at this point. I I don't think it's going to be possible until they make that final decision I don't believe they have another board meeting until November okay all right. Senator Johnson your first up there. Thank you Mr chairman of doctor Welsh thank you for your forbearance home yet another Friday. I have a question related to to the the the merger and the need house or. From our from the legislative stamp and the composition of the board of. It's my understanding that from what you just said that will need to pass something in twenty twenty one session to finalize this legally. And I understand also understood from previous weeks testimony that. at that time the existing Henderson board will cease to exist that soon there can be a board of visitors appointed similar to other campuses but that. It and I don't remember the number one or two People that we knew to new positions I think on the issue board which may or not of course there's discretion and wrecked wrecker recommendations by a whole lot of people and I think the pride B. more recommendations and usual up or down on some of these folks but opened as soon the governor would make those appointments and they probably be staggered on the terms of but to the is there a. Is there some I get some is it is it something else we've missed as far as that process and and is the are the things that I've stated are is that correct is best you understanding right now yes or Senator it is so The a issue system board of trustees is currently just five members we have a very small board and it's been a topic of discussion among our trustees for several years about wind we get to the point that we need more trustees to ensure that we've got enough people to have that adequate oversight and of course we've added Henderson would be the third institution we've added to our system since two thousand and fifteen and so that's when the decision was made that win this merger takes place two additional positions would be added to the aviation system board of trustees we would go from five to seven they Henderson board as you said would cease to exist on the date that this all takes effect the two appointments to our board to the A. issue board the way that the merger agreement is written is that they would be initially to in inst two individuals who had familiarity with Anders it does not direct that they be to trustees that is not direct that they be alarms we were very careful to not be overly prescriptive about that because we didn't feel like that was our role but yes the governor would make those appointments they would be staggered right now we have five year terms we would likely move our recommendation at least has been to move to seven year terms and so you would probably the act my recollection is these first two one would be a five year one would be a six and then ultimately they would be seven as they fell into that cycle so that we had one each year and then Henderson would have a local board of visitors as you said that other institutions do those are not governing bodies but their local bodies that help assist in making sure that you know there's there's local input engagement that would also be appointed by the governor and but there's also no stipulations on exactly where those individuals would come from that would ultimately be up to the governor is your is your understanding that these the point of these trustees is subject to confirmation by the Senate. My understanding Senator has always been that if the governor makes one that the senator that represents that area that it's appointed has to to Senate I'm not exactly sure how it works but that's one of my let's senatorial courtesy and we very very rarely and certainly not my ten year have had a vote on the floor of confirmation or not to confirm someone that it's usually something that we do we depend on the senator from that district to let us know if that's a good individual or not and that's a good system generally however because of the the last that's been shot on this particular issue it might deem Mr chairman that we least look at it a little more carefully maybe then we usually do and and just give that are magnifying glass a little bit during that time but doctor will tell one thank you again and Mr Broadway center Broadway for everything that shall have done to frankly help save this university because I I think that Not saying everything's perfect but I know there's much much better shape because of the work I've done that then it would have been otherwise and thank you for that and I hope the rest of a issues okay is what staff meeting at a rest area doing very well thank you to thank you for your work on this Mr chairman I'm the thank you thank you senator Johnson. Senator hammer Europe. Thanks for share and I'll concurred thank you for the work that you've all done taken in on an no we had to but thank you that you did Do you have the ability with regards to that fraud hotline if I remember right now we'll go back and look and see but I think the law required that that was independent from being sent to the president of the way that was structure down there when you set up your own fraud hotline or maybe you can speak to the knowledge of it is do you remember the details of how that's supposed to function. I can't center I'm not sure about that but I know ours does not it only goes to our internal audit function I don't know our internal audit directors here and she might be able to shed some light on that but but ours goes directly there and as I said to that one trustee and then I'm only giving the information if it's something that I need to deal with that perhaps because we get a lot of personnel matters to I mean you know we get things that aren't really for all of the that are more so and so's doing so and so that you know that sort of thing that we have to deal with but otherwise internal audit takes those does whatever investigation they have to do in the presence there report did you determine in when you took over the Henderson state and you found out that all calls are going to The president Jones did you do an investigation to see if there were any records that would show the calls were made but they were just put under the carpet. They also went to the general counsel and so we don't believe there are any of those that existed our knowledge but because it wasn't solely to president Jones but because he was one of the ones that receive those and obviously that created more concern for individuals about sending it in the first place. Could we get ahead not Mr chair from general counsel whether or not. But she knows they were. Calls that were made. Okay indicating no okay that doesn't mean I'll direct your at under answer correct. Miss Kneebone you know. Okay okay record in our but less well that doesn't mean there couldn't bank calls that were made to him but because the way they structured it nobody would know except for president Jones is that I think she got all of them. Yeah. Right. She was so what you said is she received all the complaints unless they involved her I don't believe it was any that were actually submitted that nothing was done with I think the concern we had was that people would be resistant to submitting to begin with because of the fact that the CEO would be able to see those when they were sent and so that was the reason for changing it to our internal audit okay and then this when I'm done did you did you in your review of that determine that any calls were made to report concerns about the financial condition of Henderson. I don't have that what we can get you what was sent into internal audit I and I'm not aware of any you guys help me. Do you know Joe. I don't believe there were Senator but out we will double check that I'll make sure to communicate exactly what was received all right I'll I'll go back and look because I think that was supposed to be set up differently than what they had to set up down there which causes me great concern such was suspect is true that that says the recall self if indeed that's what turned out right thank you Mr yes Sir thank you Representative Hillman. Thank you Mr chairman of a couple questions if you don't mind the the first one has to deal with the you said that that the two people would would have an interest in Henderson all right knowledge of it or something of that affect or in your opinion would with a person that was in an automobile that. That through some average no flex in the fountain and had to close highway sixty seven with that person qualifies. I I think they probably could Representative Hillman so by that definition perhaps someone can look to wash time but that time perhaps okay I this was kind of curious on that the the other with the the question seriously is you mentioned there had to be legislative action and I am now with that had deals with their proper the point the trustees and some of those things ugh could the merger be accomplished before that happens. You I think that we could go ahead and begin operating and just with the five trustees and then would have to go to the seven until the end the only thing is about the the only thing about her percent sure about the dissolution of their board and some of the language that's in their code but we had actually talked with I know that Shane has talked with legislative leadership as well the governor's office about trying to get that language out as quickly as we could at the beginning of the regular session so that and put an emergency clause so that we can have a relatively quickly and not be too far after the first the year okay what I want and despite that that would be controversial and all with all the work it's been done right and there's been talk of a special session so I just wondered if you might want to we actually talked about the possibility of doing it during the fiscal session or if there was a special session around that obviously things went haywire and changed and so All that could be discussed yes Sir thank you thank you. Represents bringer. Yes thank you Mr chair good afternoon doctor Wilson name good to see you good to see you and thank you so much for keeping the ready spirit going appreciate that the only concern I have the is and I get this from a mentor Representative Walker and the only concern I have is when you all start making budget cuts that you establish objective nondiscriminatory criteria when doing so thank you very much absolutely and and that's one of the things that From the very beginning we felt like it was important as we made any decisions related Henderson to not do things anecdotally but rather to go in and really look at data and and be able to have a strong understanding of why something needed to be done let the the fax back that up in the data show that so absolutely those are all the forefront of our minds. Representative Rhett. Thank you Mr chairman up missed Welsh you know we've been going over all the stuff you've been here the whole time. You know there was not a good financial report put out. And ever director meeting I just kind of want to hire a issue handles that so we do what we do quarterly board reports so when are board approves our budget the beginning that we do quarterly but board budget reports that go out to them they receive information on capital projects all it we put all these templates in the document the only thing that's in this document that we don't do for our board regularly is cash flow and a again simply because it's not an issue I mean we have an aunt that they do understand on an annual basis how much how many days cash on hand we have and things of that nature but it's never an issue where we worry about castle we had to do that specifically for Henderson so you know and I can tell you that we have really ramped up the reporting to our board in the last six or seven years because our board didn't always historically get that data but we feel like that's important they feel like that's important and I can assure you my trustees ask lots of questions about status we even have reporting where if we have an individual unit that is running a negative perhaps it's a an arena or something that nature we tell them Hey this is happening here is why I here's what's being done to address that so we try to make sure they have as much information sometime probably more than they want that to ensure that they know the financial health of our institutions thank you Mr where thank you Mr. Yes Sir I. The you could per day did you have something else represent our you are on there but you're not now amend I'm not okay okay. Okay I see nobody else anybody else have any other questions comments. Senator hammer thank you you heard the discussion earlier about the bookstore yes do you know to date what the bill that showcases bookstore is right so when Mister Barnes was talking about the January bill he's talking about the spring semester so which obviously started in January the total cost is four hundred sixty eight thousand dollars that is and that that is consistent with what's been in previous years for all the books and things for students but that bill was just received in entered into our invoice Q. on may the twenty eighth so we've only had it for a couple of weeks so it's not pass do from Jay and I don't think he knew when it was sent to us but we verified that with our folks we also have not received yet the last two quarters of his commission payments back to the university so there will be some of that that is that is in that it out but that's all part of the regular calls that we go through on an annual basis as part of that outsourcing but we do have it but like I say we just got it it's not five or six months behind we it's on we've only had it for a couple of weeks so with the money that the university's been loaned which was six million plus what we did Legislative Council the other day which permits directed toward salaries was that corporation I mean how would you know that that was to have been incorporated in the six million without having just gotten the invoice or dollar we we will course that's six million paid all those things were being held last year June nineteenth bill or S. unit IT but we knew that bills coming up may know the regular bills we get every semester and so that's something that you know we're aware of new was coming it's just it's when the in but we're not gonna pay it obviously to we get the invoice and and we just got that and a lot of that just has to do with the way the semester runs it is he said students dropping and things of that so just so no concerns on your part no surprises or anything like that no Sir the pro got all surprises you want I think so thank you thank you Mr. Doctor will just saw and I'll echo what everybody else is seated where you're sure glad that they issues stepped up to the plate because I'm afraid that that institution would be no more of if you all were not there so but we still have a little bit road ahead of us but sure heading ending up words it appears like so I think so senator you know it's it's as I've said before someone your fix it's gonna take a several years to get everything address but I do think we're definitely moving in the right directions were much better position today than we were eight or nine months ago and we're committed to to turning around because I think the the university in the students and faculty staff to service so we were honored to be able to help sure and from what we've seen there are some find find employees at the absolute latest thank you wonderful people there sorry that they've had to go through this but hopefully we'll all be stronger after it so absolutely all right I agree thank you Sir thanks appreciate you. Represent our you have the your your up now the yes if you're ready to call her other business yes Sir okay well first I want to clarify that I I don't believe that it will be necessary to to call the campus chief of police so to answer questions about the the meth lab there thing I've been assured that members of the border going to raise that issue at their next board meeting so that's probably where it would best be taken care of I just wanted to urge you you we we've met it and obviously I've had a keen interest in this by then you can tell that by the questions I've asked we've we've met three times in three weeks on this issue we have had other issues that J. P. R. was taking up where people specifically the Arkansas school for math and science appearance students some faculty and staff is expressed an interest as far back as January that they one of their opportunity to counter the public relations campaign that doctor Bob it in Mr alter nice brought in I hope that we would get back on that schedule for us to take that up as soon as possible so I just wanted to to put that for because there are still some issues and need to be looked at their okay thanks for comment Sir. Anybody else. Anybody else in the audience for making the statements as relates stage issue. Somebody. Okay Senator hammer yes Sir could you kind of are you prepared to kind of get and thank you for absent here for all three means and I'm not a member but I sure appreciate because A do you have a vested interest was only alumni being in my district so I appreciate very much but. Could you can give a clear vision of where you're going from here you need to formulate that and come back I really need to formulate that and come back again my intention before today's meeting of my intentions before the day's meeting of course was that we were going to kind of land this plane that's why we had to a issue to kind of give us a close out at the end to kind of see where they were course of any member wants to bring forward you know something this come up during testimony today will definitely look at having another meeting because whenever we started this we said we'd have as many as we needed and we'd stay as long as we needed because it was our intent to get to the bottom of this. So that being said. If we can just all work together behind the scenes also want to work with staff and leg audit sometimes we have to get to kind of look back at some of the. Recorded testimony in transcription things of that nature before we can make those decisions thank you yes Sir thank you and we appreciate your question Senator hammer. Anyone else. With that we'll be adjourned thank you all.