Children and Youth Committee - Senate

OK, members, we'll call this meeting to order, uh, since Senate ging and Children Committee kind of has some loose rules. One of the things I've been, uh, Uh, studying has been the grid security issues that has been going on in this country. If you, I watched one on 60 Minutes and then you see a lot of these podcasts I think the Shawn Ron show is a retired Navy SEAL, had one that I sent out to the Senate committee members, uh, but, uh, anyways, we know, when you listen to these people and the issues, it's just not economically it's like how they're going to impact, you know, if we have a grid security problem, uh, of any sustained time, it's going to be the elderly and the youth people that's going to be the. Hardest hit and the most impactful first from some of the things I've seen. So, anyway, I've just felt like it was an important issue. So we're gonna call up, uh, Mr. Frederick. He is the chief information officer for the Arkansas Electric Cooperative. He has served honorably in the United States Navy, and he also worked for the Arkansas Supreme Court and has worked with the Electric Cooperative and one of the things I talked to Rob Be as back at Care Electric, uh, is that, uh, about some of the cybersecurity issues and I just feel like that is something that states. are going to have to deal with and know more about and so, uh, they pointed to, to Mr. Frederick and so Mr. Frederick, thank you for the service for the country and the state and we just, uh, are gonna let you testify and, and, uh, love to hear from you. So thank you, you're recognized. OK, you need to, you need to hit the green button there, so. Is that better? Yes, sir. Senator King, uh, committee members, I appreciate y'all, I appreciate the opportunity to come in and testify this morning, tell you a little bit about grid security and where we're at in the state of Arkansas. I put together a simple presentation. Hopefully this will, uh, lend a little bit of weight to how the grid is built, uh, give you a little more depth than that aspect and maybe a little more comfort in, uh, things like blackouts and and uh considerations around total loss of power. So as we talk about uh grid security, there's really a couple of compositions I put in there, the National and the Arkansas Grid Security. I'll talk a little bit about Arkansas Securities, uh, measures, uh, or Arkansas Electric Cooperatives and how we are combined and then some security overview. Of, uh, met with several of the agencies like, uh, Homeland Security, the FBI, we meet continuously about the threat landscape that's out there and how we can continue to keep a safe and secure environment. And then what it would mean and then I've established a few critical concerns around this environment. As far as the grid composition, the grid composition is, is comprised of really three interconnects. they've been there for a very long time. The interconnects, uh, that are out there are the eastern, which go from the east coast to the Rockies, uh, the Western Interconnect is. From the Rockies west and then Urcot is on its own, which is Texas, and the uh reliability Council of Texas down there. Under that you have 7 regional transmission authorities or operators and what they do. I kind of regulate the Uh, balance of power. Uh, so they, the balance being the load that's out there that is requested or needed in a specific area and the generation that's produced. Within that, there are 66 balancing authorities that also manage power and they can be a multiple or different areas, the RTOs themselves are balancing authorities. Uh, there are 3000 electric generation companies throughout the United States for 64 G&Ts in the distri or in the cooperative world and then. 832 distribution, uh. Co-ops that distribute power out through the residential and commercial areas. In those areas that are not covered in our municipalities, IOUs and various, um, energy marketers. Inside the state. Uh, under, uh, markets, the way that we identify there are two RTOs here. One is MISO, which is the mid-continent independent service operator and then Southwest Power Pool. And then ourselves just as the electric cooperatives, we are the GNT for the state, and we were built and, uh, created by the distribution co-ops that were formed in Arkansas, and we were created in 1949. We served 17 members and about 62% of the land mass. This is just a kind of a map so you can understand and you talked about Rob, uh, up in Berryville and up in that category, so that'd be uh Carro Electric, uh, but those are the 17 co-ops gives you a little bit of identity around what co-ops, uh, are responsible for and really they're the real communities around the state. From a security aspect. Uh, just taking a review some of the things that I look into is the physical infrastructure itself. What does that, uh, look like around. The state for us and then the influence of threats that are coming into us from our partners at DOE DHS CISA, and Uh, and various other information sharing activities. The large threats right now are cyber. Uh, that's the largest concern. Uh, control systems are Older, uh, they do advance in some aspect, but I think that's a large concern because they're the ones that actually control our systems out there, but many of these are isolated, uh, under certain regulations under NEC or FERC regulations and requirements to keep those systems out of the public interface, so we don't allow those to traverse the internet as much as we can and recently Arkansas Electric Cooperatives, uh, and they, and they, uh, and our members elected to build a Fiber ring around the state. This fiber ring initially was built to build a self-sustaining but uh uh secure area that we didn't have to worry or use the dependence of outside providers like AT&T, Windstream, activities like that. So we don't have an influence to the internet as this comes to completion later this year. Inside of that, uh, some of the cyber effects are hacktivist, um. Nation states are much larger concern, uh, for countries kind of combined our biggest concern around there. Uh, outside of the United States and they have a lot of media attention at this, uh, current status. Inside the US, uh. Ecological activists seem to be Talking a lot on Dark web or other uh sites and creating a little bit of uh. Chaos I guess in a sense they're not doing anything, but they're talking a lot right now and there's a lot of chatter, so if we talk to our affiliates with the FBI. We get a lot of that information or other representatives, uh, we kind of know that there is a lot of talk, but often they're asking for action and they're not getting any, so Arkansas has been a very lucky in that aspect. From a physical part uh domestic violent extremists or DVEs uh are a large uh concern or environmental extremists if they were to uh, take action, then I think that would be a bigger thing. What we've noticed on a national level is most of this happens on the coastlines. We haven't seen much of it in the central United States. It's certainly not in the state of Arkansas. There have been a few events, but, uh, nothing of, of significant note, uh, that we've had to worry about. And then other things are like anarchist uh supply chain issues, uh, cause of physical issue, and then, as I said, the manufacturing concern, those manufacturers are uh, complete. Uh, control systems is still a a concern for us to make sure that they're up to date, that they're taking the best security measures and doing the same, um, taking the same security practices that we would consider essential to, uh, keeping us up. And I made a note here, uh, essentially why us and, and the, the answer to that is why not us. Arkansas has not seen a profound impact, um, in that aspect, that's great, uh, but we also become one of the targets. And nobody thinks about and um. I think that there are several instances that could Create Uh, opportunity for somebody if they wanted to target something smaller than some of the larger. Uh, providers out there. As I said, overall, the look is good, uh, and that's considering every report that we bring in. Um, very few physical attacks on the assets here. There have been a few things we've had, uh, A couple people try to breach gates. We don't know if they were intended or not. They rammed them with vehicles, uh, but no access and no suspects apprehended. Nobody actually got through most of the actions that have happened in the state of Arkansas have been on theft, small things that they can carry tools, copper. Uh, things of that nature, but nothing in a surveillance or uh or surveillance aspect or or things that would bring us greater concern breaching a facility and then not doing anything while they're in there, uh, camera analysis, things that we hear out of other companies and things that we get in information sharing sharing sources, uh, are all things that we consider, uh, actions that we would like to know and help us build our security a little bit stronger in the state. So what are the critical concerns right now, the upcoming election, ideologies around. Different aspects concern us, uh, depends on who's in conference or who's in the administration and They, uh, beliefs may cause some concerns people want to take action against infrastructure and it's not just electric, it could be water or gas or any of the infrastructures, but uh that's certainly a concern, I think, to everybody. Uh, the Black Start program inside the state of Arkansas, I am not personally aware of The actions that are taken there, but, uh. The regional entities that I talked about earlier, the regional transmission organizations, SPP and MISO are part of this, and they have a Black Star program and what that is, is if we were to lose power within our region. They have a process of bringing power back. If you don't. know that part of power you can't just start generating and producing power and putting it on the grid, uh, without identifying what loads out there. If not, you're saturated or overload, uh, that frequency. The reverse of that is if you have too much load, not enough generation, you have an under frequency and. There is a point at which that becomes critical if Generation facilities hit 59.4 hertz. We're on a 60 hertz system, uh, inside the United States, but if you hit 59.4, you start a 9 minute countdown in that aspect of that 9 minute countdown, uh, completes, it'll start shutting off all relays inside that, and it'll eventually close off the grid. So there is a consideration there, although that's never happened. Uh, there is, I did note in a brief, uh, that I had that I passed out the 2003 blackout. I think that's uh a considerable note. It cascaded over a software glitch, uh, or bug, uh, that didn't allow an operator to make a control decision, and when he didn't make that decision, uh, or didn't know to make a decision. It caused the 2000 event that our 2003 event that came down kind of the coastline and up into Quebec, Canada. And during that time, uh, Efforts were made right away, and they were down for, uh, most people were back in 7 hours, the longest outage being 4 days. So significant weather events are more of a concern. Then probably a grid loss or an outage of that capacity. And then some of the other concerns we talked briefly about that these new data centers are coming on. There's a lot of load requests out of the state of Arkansas. Uh, bitcoin exchanges. Uh, and their data centers take a large load. They can, they can escalate the, the requirement and the request. Uh, of additional generation or generation that is not out there, uh, with a reduction in fossil fuels that creates a problem as we try to meet that demand and just try to, uh, stabilize where we'll be reducing some of our coal footprint, and during that time, uh, additional load is not considered. So it, it creates. Uh, some problems there because of the additional load at this point, we, we've had several requests come in, some of them, some of these data centers are not just Bitcoin exchanges, they're artificial intelligence, which has taken a large look into the media recently and has taken, uh, a A giant leap, I'd say since 2012 when it kind of initiated, uh, into our atmosphere or into our environment across the grid and. That, uh, if you read into that, there are several states that, that have had these challenges as well with AI data centers and then the other type of data center is what they call an edger or microdata center. These are data centers that either host and store information or they, uh, present what is called edge compute, uh, it'd be something like Netflix or Hulu or these things that you get on your TV and what they do is they don't want you traversing the internet all the way back to their home base or their home state where their headquarters located. Give you an edge look that stores information that they identify that are in those respective areas. And then a little bit of what I put on there is unprojected load, uh, and considering uh some of the lithium, uh, conversations that went over the last year down in South Arkansas around the, uh, smackover formation. So what are the uh concerns? Um, the question that came up, and I know that To the address of this committee, what happens or what's the impact on children and elderly. Um, From a co op perspective. That is, that was a little bit of a challenge. It's not really something that I could directly answer, but I did want to investigate what those options are. Uh, again, the The ability inside the state to go into a complete blackout, uh, is not completely out of the question, but it would take a substantial event to make that happen just because of the way that the grid has been fortified the way it's split and separated and segmented. Uh, that'd be difficult in the aspect of long term care, uh, Nursing homes have to have generators, hospitals are regulated to have generators. Uh, there are considerations around assisted living and independent living they're not regulated the same way, so there is issues there, um, as far as children. The county emergency management plans and state as far as Adam would have an impact on that immediately. And I guess additional information I talked with since I sat on the food bank board. I talked with Feeding America and they have emergency plans to kind of enact that, but one of the things that came up was they've never considered a grid blackout, so there is, I think there's additional information to gain there opportunity to, to learn about that. But if you did go into a blackout, what's impacted? Everything, uh, cell towers, anything that doesn't have a generator, a lot of, a lot of cell towers have generators, but all don't, uh, critical infrastructures should have those things, uh, but fuel stations around the state, um, Sewage lift stations probably have a generators, but I couldn't speak to whether or not that's a, a tested entity and how that would impact and if, uh, those things don't happen, then we have a, a bio, uh, hazard or could have potential, uh, community hazard around things like that, uh, and then the use of public transportation, uh, highways, uh, law enforcement would be impacted if they didn't have gravity fed fuel stations to get out there and these are long term events. Uh, which we've never seen. I think one of the closest things again was a weather event was, uh, winter storm Yuri, and that was down in Texas and that was, uh, catastrophic, but again a different interconnect at that time. I put some of those into summary, so I will, um. Let that, uh, kind of stand and then open it to any questions you might have. OK, thank you for your testimony. I mean, it's like when you, when I first saw the 60 Minutes, uh, you know, pieces here, I believe it was a couple of years ago, it was like they were talking about Silicon Valley, how, you know, and we, we, We just don't think about how the grid is so important to us and security, and he shut down Silicon Valley and I was looking at like, you know, Arkansas, for example, in our agriculture industry, I mean, all of our poultry houses run off generators. So, you know, we have, we only, you know, typically there power outage, weather or something like that, you know, we're able to do that and patch that through, but grain dryers, all that. So there's somebody from Bearville that had worked for the State Department for some years, and then he was later commissioned part of a study that looked at if they shut down the food. Park like around Kansas City, for example, and if there was something that could, then basically, they only have a 6 to 8 day supply of food. And we, we don't really think about that, so, uh, uh, you know, like I said, once I saw this and listened to some of the Sean Ryan podcast, it seems like there's this wide range of people starting to raise these concerns about that, so, uh, we appreciate you bringing us talking about it. How many, I mean, as far as nationally, as far as cybersecurity threats, and things happening, you see that. Obviously, you said outside of Arkansas right now, but on the dark web, which we just had a thing on cryptocurrency and the dark web. There's chatter going on and you guys, Homeland Security are all monitoring that, right? Yes, sir, we're, uh, We monitor through multiple sources. Uh, we have different entities that kind of keep in touch with us and we're part of the energy information sharing and uh. Critical infrastructure, uh, sharing group and as a identify things, anything that comes in that causes any kind of impact, we can report that to that information sharing center that gets shared back to us. Um, some of it's classified, uh, in certain levels, they're not classified at the national level, but in that, in that sharing center so we try to keep some of that information to ourselves. But as you said on the dark web, uh, going through a brief this morning, one of the things that's happening as the election comes up as they're providing auctions on. information on these ICS systems or these, uh, Industrial control systems and they're the ones that control our generation and that they're sharing what they have or credentials that they have and that's a, that's a scary, uh, consideration because if they can do that and they truly have those credentials, what can I do if I can get into the industrial control center, they could shut down the generation of certain plants. Um, but there is a lot of, uh, national, uh, like, and it's not just national, there's a lot of chatter coming from, uh, different entities and ideology, uh, groups that are out there. Trying to represent. That they are against big energy or they're trying to come against the government in some aspect. A lot of those calls are, as I said earlier, are called as a caused action, but they're not taking the action, so it's like they're trying to get a guinea pig to come out and and complete some of that, but a lot of us can remember on September 11th, September 10th, if you would have said, you know, they take box cutters and takes care of planes and fly them into buildings, you would have said you're crazy. So, but, uh, I know Senator Clark has a question if any other members have a question, just buzz in and we'll recognize you. On the same subject, but different as far as interrupting the. Power supply The These things are certainly concerning. But in meetings with the electorate coop cooperatives. Uh We've been informed that Uh, rather that we're likely to have problems rather than with terrorists with just, with shutting down our coal plants, etc. and having. Problems and uh supplying electricity on the grid and having been to third world countries. I'm not really excited about that. Uh, so can you share with us about that? Yes, sir. uh, definitely a huge concern for us, uh. The reduction in fossil fuels, uh, while there's, there's, I think there's a lot of, uh, Benefit in that aspect, uh, the consideration of timing is, is Definitely concerning for us, uh, trying to build generation right now, uh. is difficult and the reason it becomes difficult is because supply chain issues and the fact that you can't just build generation overnight. If you look at something like a hydro plant, you're talking about 34 or 30 to 40 year investment, uh, to get that up and running. There are smaller, uh, factors out there. Our CEO is, is, and our team has embraced that. Uh, we've certainly looked at everything we can do and we're we want to be considered the balance of power, uh, but that balance incorporates everything from, uh, intermittent, uh, power supplies like, uh, solar and wind, uh, but what happens when those aren't available like in Winter storm Yuri and that. Uh, in that aspect, you've still got to have generations, so we're addressing that now and so are some of the other energy, uh, companies in the state trying to bring, uh, generation as quickly as we can, uh, but some of this equipment that goes into that is on a five-year wait list already, uh, so. There is a huge concern. What we're trying to do is just match what we have right now. Uh, and that's not including all the considerations around any economic growth and not just data centers here in the state. So it's, it's something that, that's being addressed, uh, as much as we can. We've certainly, we've already started building our board has awarded us in uh opportunities to, uh, build more generation and, well, I don't know if I can disclose all that. It's, um, it's ongoing with the cooperatives themselves. But it does replacement, uh, for the most part. If we do stuff our toe and we do fail. Uh, you know, I'm still at an age and. Health wise where I Take care of myself Uh, with the energy grid's not up. But, uh, do our hospitals, I would assume they would be the first ones that would have uh big enough generators to continue to operate, but do they, number one, because there's different hospitals and different size hospitals and and that have different amounts of money, uh, but then how about nursing homes? That doesn't strike me as Places that would really have that type of generation capacity and and retirement villages type places. Because the elderly are gonna be, uh, and the sick are gonna be the worst affected. Yes, sir, they, and you touched on a couple of things there that, that concerned me and my wife, uh, has been a long-term career for 30 years, uh, in that, in that business specifically. So I had the same question. Uh, when it comes down to long-term care, they certainly have their rules and regulations. If it's a nursing home, they are supposed to be on a generator. So they should have facility generation capability. That said, a lot of people are in assisted living or or independent living in these communities, and there's no requirement around that, uh, so that causes a big problem, uh, if they should go down. Now, small-time generators from FEMA. Uh, uh, I believe the state have some National Guard has some capabilities and then from energy and I'm not speaking for them, but from the co-ops, we also have what are considered mobile uh substations so we can provide power, uh, from a, uh, tractor trailer rig, and they're built just like a, a, uh, substation, but they, they have some limitation to it. So there is power out there, there is capability, uh, but the loss of fuel would be more my concern, even if you've got the generation, how do you get fuel to it. Um, and as I said, there are probably manual overrides that's kind of out of my wheelhouse. But if you don't have gravity fed, uh, fuel, uh, components. You know, how to get fuel out to, to each one of these centers as I, uh, lose, uh, that, that, uh, the fuel that's in their capacity at that point, so. Thank you, thank you, Mr. Chair. OK, uh, Representative Allen, you're recognized and then, uh. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Frederick, for being here today and thank you for your service to our country. Uh, just very quickly, here in the state of Arkansas, we are faced with a lot of tornadoes. And we also experience experience power outages. Are you encouraging utility companies to partner with some of these businesses to provide generators. Case in point, uh, when you, when we have a power outage and we go to a service station. They can't even pump gas because the utilities are out. So, are you encouraging our utility companies to provide generators, uh, or to ponder with some of these businesses to help them keep going doing downtime. I think it's a great question. I have not heard that specifically from our organization, but that's something I'd be glad to, to check into and, and find out what our cooperatives are doing because I think that's a I think that's a positive aspect to, uh, to help them understand, uh, what happens and I at this point don't know what statewide as far as fuel stations in that, in that uh gas stations around the state who may have that kind of capacity. So that's where Again, manual pump or manual override, how do they get that gas out and they've got a meter that coming out so they don't lose, uh, and can emergency override that our emergency service over at that, I, I'm sorry, I don't have that answer, but I'd be glad to get that for you. Again, thank you for taking my question. I want to say that Mr. Bethel with energy is in the audience and I texted him if he wants to come to a future meeting and, and energy, uh, have a platform they're more than welcome to do that. So representative Gas well, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to. Echo some of the comments of the chairman, uh, things that have come to my attention that have caused me to. Some concern I talked with the Attorney General about this recently because he has his cybersecurity summit, uh, coming up soon. And I wanted to see, uh, apparently this will be a topic of discussion, but particularly what drew my interest to this was earlier in the year. I saw a press conference where Director Ray of the FBI testified before Congress. And if I recall his comments correctly, he said that. It's not a matter of if China hacks into. Or the CCP hacks into. Our electrical grid or critical infrastructure and it's multiple, not just electrical but water and many others. It's not if they do, they already have, and it's if and when they want to. Uh, initiate a cyber attack, they're capable of doing that. And then like the chairman said, I've watched various podcasts and different, uh, productions where they talk about, Uh, if the electrical grid grid were to go down. And we were without fuel, uh, we were without telecommunications and then particularly food. It doesn't take very long before society devolves into chaos. And That's, that's particularly concerning. So I guess my first question is. Have you had any, is there any particular communication that's occurring between the electrical, uh, companies, uh, those who represent the electric. Uh, interest across the state with Adam and the National Guard and others to make sure that we have a plan in place so that we don't devolve into chaos should that occur. Again, I, I don't have specifics on that. I do know that some of those conversations happen. That's part of what a blackout plan is, uh, so the regional transmission organizations are the ones that kind of, uh, complete that. Um, we do work with Adam, uh, we do have, uh, Investments with law enforcement and representatives around the state that are in emergency management, uh, aspects, so. National Guard, uh, representatives from the governor's office, uh, And then, uh, again, the law enforcement officers around the state. Helped to complete some of that and and we try to take that information like you heard from Director Ray, uh, very seriously. Uh, there are a lot of cyber. Aspects that we, um, That we review and a lot of tools that we have at our disposal to kind of keep that information out. Uh, but they've made a lot of comments coming out of China that are already in the system as director I said. Uh, it is our concern, I think as, as a member of the uh. Electric sub-sector committee, uh, When we get together in Washington, that's been one of the questions. What are they actually in and what information do we have that supports that. Uh, we don't see that directly in our system. And that's not to say that they're not in there, but, uh, is it rhetoric? Is it truth, um, at this point we don't know. So our systems. Continue to evolve our tactics and our um our. Work towards cyber, um. Security evolves. Uh, but they have more money. I'll just be honest, they've got more money and time than we do, and that's a, that's a problem because they're paying people and just as I said on the dark web right now, they're auctioning credentials off, uh, so if that's true, uh, that doesn't take long for somebody to, to get into a system. The primary focus for myself and haven't done this for over 30 years and coming from Navy intel is segmentation. And that's, that's a large part of it. So it's not just the impact of Uh, the security itself or the tools out there or the way that we can stop malware or intrusion, uh, but it's segmenting off areas that don't allow anybody into that, uh, unauthorized space. That said, uh, the The internal threat is the other concern, so yes, they're out there, but is there a threat not just from a cyber aspect or into our electronics and our systems, but do they have insider activity and threats, uh, that may compromise the system by somebody that, that we take as an employer or a colleague, so. I don't know if that answer. There we go. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I heard your reference a blackout plan. So is that the plan where there's coordination between the state electrical interests and. Uh, to Adam and the National Guard. Yes sir, it's a Black Start program, the Black Star program. OK. Is that something that legislators are privy to? They should be. I can't answer that. Um, contact Mao and Southwest Power pool and see if we could get. I like to find that out for you. OK, thank you. Represent Eubanks and Representative Ray. Thank you, Mr. Chair. You, uh, you mentioned that the, the co-ops were running their own fiber network to connect them with that prevent them from being able to be hacked? Would that give them That ability to protect themselves. That's part of our segmentation, uh, plan, uh. To be able to have an independent network that, that the fiber is only connected to our networks. So it doesn't traverse any internet, uh, doesn't traverse any providers out there in the, uh, internet service providers then go outside the state, uh, so it's all what we consider dark fiber and then we lighted ourselves that day that travels over that fiber. And that allows us to keep all of our generation and control facilities within our own network and, and. And get away from that external influence that we've been subjected to for so many years. Follow up Yes, sir. That so I could see where that could possibly protect the generating side of this, would it also protect the transmission out of it because I think you're. Like you said, you're connected with miso and Southwest Power pool, and if they don't have their own independent, uh, System that is not connected with the internet. It doesn't make any difference if you have generation, if you don't have, if you can't. Have transmission. Yes, sir. That's a, and that's a great point. We do, uh, utilize other transmission lines and systems, so, uh, just because we can generate does not mean uh specifically that we can. Transmit more even though we're generation transmission facility prior to 2013. The Electric co-ops of the 17 distribution co-ops got their, their power mainly from our generation. In 2013 we entered the markets of MO and SPP and, and during that time, we kind of opened our doors, uh, to right over other transmission, uh, so, but you're right, it, there is influence into the transmission system itself. So whether or not we could get that power out, uh, would depend on the Black Star program that the, uh, that the RTOs would, uh, be in charge of. So Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Ray. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, um, Mr. Frederick, this is more of a comment than a question, but. I remembered, um, Representative Gazaway actually authored, I'm sure you're familiar in the 2021 session, um, a very significant piece of legislation dealing with the protection of critical infrastructure. And set up some specialized. You're welcome. Uh, and set up some specialized penalties for people who attack, you know, pipelines that carry oil and gas or electrical grid, etc. Um, In response to some of the concerns from, uh, ecological terrorists or I think you called them domestic environmental extremists. Um, I guess I would just ask that in light of emerging threats if, if it would be helpful for y'all, I think, to review that statute and make sure if there's anything that needs to be updated on it or improved or strengthened that you could bring that back to the legislature. Yes, sir, I think, uh, that's absolutely, uh. Review and I have, though I've been with the co-ops for 13 years and I Uh, 12 of those were in a different capacity or about 11. Uh, I just took this role about a year and a half ago, so, um. I'd absolutely um. I think that there's relevance to that and certainly bring that back and any information I can provide, uh, that may help because the threat landscape changes on us almost daily. OK, does any other members have any questions? OK, Representative Gassway, we'll get with Blake to find out your answer on that, uh, and, uh, seeing no other questions. Do you have anything else you wanna add or say anything in closing? No, sir. I appreciate the opportunities. This is my first time, so I, uh, I look forward to doing anything I can for the committee and, uh, answering any other further questions in the future. OK. And I just want to let the House members know that whenever this is a Senate meeting, but you'll be. Any meeting that you want to attend that I have is, you're more than welcome to attend and also if you any member at all, you're not on this committee has an issue that they want to bring up, just get with Blake or something like that. We'll try and see that facilitating. I did talk sent text to Mr. Bethel and, uh, we'll follow up with if they want to have any type of platform to discuss their issues as well. So, one of the things I want to talk about like as far as committee goes, you know, we've talked about the dark web, we had the dark web come up. If you look at the dark web, which I did not. So much about the dark web deal, uh, you know, became chair and looking into some of these, uh, child predator issues, that type of thing, child pornography, human trafficking, all that, it seems to be on this dark web and how the dynamics of that is that is even changed over the years how it used to operate, right? Is that correct? Yeah, yeah, I come from an intelligence community that's uh You're right, that's evolved, Yeah, so, uh. Anyway, if any of your members, like I said, we may try and look at, uh, Sometime about how the dark web or try to bring somebody in. One of the issues I see that it's not related to this necessarily, but if you see on Twitter and then it was actually on the Sean Ryan show, a guy called he called him an ethical hacker where they were going to the dark web and exposing some of these, uh, you know, predators trying to meet up with somebody they thought was young and if you look on Twitter, you'll see these people come in and they're just exposing these people and they show up to meet, but they're actually the person that just got exposed trying to meet them. So that's one of the issues that, uh. Trying to look at and see, but it this dark web seems to be, uh, but a lot of this communication, as we found out the testimony the other day can be offline, right? And that's Where you just don't know, right? Yeah, it's pretty scary. Well, oh, Senator Love, you are recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and as we talk about uh the, the human trafficking aspect, especially with you, um. I would like us to pay more attention to the hotels. And they're like, for instance, there was a hotel in my area where they said they were under construction. The whole floor was being used for human trafficking. And we need to do something about these hotels that are. In the area cause I have a bunch of them that are along I-30 that are being used for human trafficking sites. And they, they'll say they're, they're, you know, they're under construction or whatever, and then they'll be running a ring of human trafficking. And so that's, that's an issue where I think we really need to get a hold of, we keep, we keep, um, We kind of glaze over it and we don't want to hold these hotels, uh, responsible for what they're doing as far as part of their business practice. So I think I'm hoping that we can look at something like that as well. Absolutely, and if you want to get with Blake and then Laura's an excellent research. She worked at DHS and was in this and I've found out she's, uh, but, uh, a great resource. Let us know, we'll do that. Like I said, there's maybe some future meetings on the dark web kind of thing and trying to look at that because, um, it is very concerning about what's happened as, as you said, the dark web seems to some of the people I've been a moving target, it just keeps moving and stuff, and so, anyway, all right, with no other, uh, questions from the members. I hope you. found this informative and, uh, like I said, if you have any future questions or anything or anything you want to look at, just get with Blake. I'm open to everybody in trying to facilitate and have a discussion. And Mr. Bethel, please let us know if you wanna, wanna, uh, come with your son. So, all right, with that members, thank you very much. We're adjourned.