Children and Youth Committee - Senate

OK, we want to call this meeting to order. This meeting is about the, uh, Franklin County, uh, Prison Associate uh situation in the possible prison that's going to be built there, and we appreciate, uh, some members in the audience, uh, coming all the way from Franklin County down here. So first off, I want to recognize in this presentation, uh, Miss Natalie Cadina? Is that right? OK. And uh, you're gonna do a PowerPoint, so I'll just let you start and get ready and, and go right into it. And then, uh, we'll get any questions afterward. So you're recognized. OK, you'll need to turn that mic and probably get a little closer to you a little bit, and if you hit the button. Now, can you hear me? Yes. OK. So, especially thank you to Senator King for inviting the Franklin County and River Valley Coalition to speak to you today. It is no secret that we are resolutely opposed to the construction of a project of this scale on Mill Creek Mountain. It is also no secret that we have been vocal about our stance and our intent to get the message out to all Arkansans. As we stand before you today. We will present to you an emotional plea from a devastated community, a plea full of facts and data demonstrating that the site selection for this build was at best irresponsibly selected and at worst, done so with nefarious intent. We are emotional about this. Our community is suffering a collective grief. We were denied a voice in this process by the very people that we voted for. We were shocked, then sad, and now we are angry. But let me assure you, we would not be standing here today if we did not fully believe. That building a prison on Mill Creek Mountain is bad for all Arkansans. As a community, we deeply understand the concept of sacrifice for the greater good. Everyone in here with us today has a story of sacrifice. Franklin County is home to patriotic, God-loving people who care deeply about our country, our state, and especially the close-knit communities of the river valley. If building this prison among our citizens truly benefited greater Arkansas, we as reasonable people would be willing to collaborate in finding a location that more equitably shares both the burden and the benefit. However, we believe the site selection for this project is fundamentally flawed and will lead to failure. Our intent today is to demonstrate that this deal simply does not make sense, even by the Board of Corrections on metrics. The decision to spend almost $3 million on this land was based on a grossly inadequate site study? This location cannot sustain the labor force required to support a structure of this scale. Nor is it suitable land to build on. While this issue is personal to us. It is ultimately about what is best for the state of Arkansas. We are committed to ensuring that decisions of this magnitude are made with integrity? Transparency and the well-being of all Arkansans in mind. All right. While the video clips may not play the sound. Um Mr. Profiri set out his criteria for this prison build. To the Arkansas Legislative Council. Which concluded the criteria listed as size, distance from an existing facility, Suitable labor pool, availability of primary infrastructure and proximity to emergency services and medical facilities. The site at Mill Creek Mountain meets two of those criteria size and distance from another facility. Mill Creek Mountain is far from an ideal location for a prison in the river valley. If the governor wants her prison initiative to succeed, she must consider putting all options on the table again. Benny Magnus once told 3000 of us in Franklin County. Mark my words, some of you will work here someday, implying that we would eventually learn to like it. The mountain is characterized by karst topography. This already elevates the construction costs. Development of this scale is likely to disrupt the water table. Potentially affecting the surrounding wells Potentially affecting the surroundings and water. Is that me? Oh, was it? Well, that was a little delayed. Sorry, um. Development of this scale is likely to disrupt the water table, potentially affecting the surrounding wells and available water that farmers and ranchers rely on to sustain their livestock associated with where that should be constructed and it. The site assessment failed to adequately address the potential costs of developing harsh land. The state spent nearly $3 million on land that was informally assessed and deemed to have no major concerns. When compared to the anticipated $1.5 billion dollar cost of this prison, I guess $2 million.03 million dollars might seem insignificant, but it speaks volumes about the lack of due diligence in this process. This demonstrates the proximity of residents within a five-mile radius of the proposed prison. What you see there are 200 of the approximately 600 homes. that surround the prison site. It is not an exhaustive list, and none of these voters want the prison near their home for many reasons. OK. It, it see, he's, he's speaking now but. Um, and the land has to be suitable for such a facility. Yeah, that was the same. So can I get my notes back on. Do you have any more audio and any other presentation? OK, we'll just take a few minutes here and try and get to it, OK. Employees that work at that facility, which means that the commute has to be reasonable from their homes and that. So the commute times for this project, um, Make this significantly unsuitable for a site of this size. Highways 255 96 217215, 41 and 23. Are all options for commuters. Many of those connections, uh, connect to Highway 22, which is the main highway. Between the most populated cities south of I-40. All are narrow and curvy and vehicles suffer wear and tear due to the feed trucks, chicken trucks, farm equipment, and gas trucks that frequent the roads. You have only 2 access points north of the river. The I-40 exit in Van Buren and the I-40 exit in Ozark at that facility, which means that the commute has to be reasonable from that. So the total population for cities within 35 minutes' drive time, which is what Profiri stated was a reasonable commute is 300,800. The cities with the largest populations are in approximately approximately 50 minute commute. The drive time from the ramp in Ozark is 30 minutes plus however long it takes you to get there. From Van Buren, it is at least 45 minutes. With Russellville, Dardannell, Waldron, and Pottsville, over an hour away. This means your largest population pools, which are towns of 3000 people or more are the furthest away from the build site. The minimum drive time. For a town of that size is 30 minutes with Fort Smith, Van Buren, Alma, Clarksville, and Russellville being 50 to 80 minutes or more away. The labor pool within a 35 minute commute is approximately 79.5% smaller compared to the labor pool within a 50 minute commute. This significant difference highlights the importance of choosing a labor pool closer to the larger communities. right location to allow for a workforce that can immediately staff that prison, as well as a sustainable workforce that can maintain the facility over. With unemployment rates in the river valley being among the lowest. In the state, placing the bulk of the labor pool at such a distance with poorly maintained roads to travel on is another reason the site selection for this build is ill-informed. Some newer statistics that we received. Yesterday, also suggests that they did not account at all for the amount of vacant jobs that are currently in the area. There are a little over 3000 individuals who are unemployed in the labor shed and there are 6500 jobs available at this time. Poor roads, inadequate emergency services, and limited utilities will drive up construction and operational costs. A cost estimate summary for a fire station that can support the demand of adding this facility in Franklin County is between 2.5 and 3.5 million to construct 600,000 to 1.3 million for equipment and an annual staffing at 750,000 to 1.2 million. Another grossly negligent assumption put in the site assessment is that there is adequate emergency services to help if needed. These photos depict the closest fire station to the site. Every single station in the closest communities relies solely on volunteer fire service. The investment needed to add their own to the prison or to require the communities to support them is another reason this site selection is astonishingly irresponsible. community has to embrace the fact that a prison would go into their community or near their community. Statistics show that rural communities may initially experience an economic boost due to a prison being built in their area, but that long term outcomes for quality of life indicators decrease significantly over time. But we also want to bring solutions. Relocating the site to a more practical centrally located area with existing emergency services and improved commuter access would significantly reduce the state's overall budgetary obligations compared to the current site. Additionally, it would enable future investments to be distributed more equitably among the affected school districts and communities, preventing any one location from shouldering a disproportionate share of the burden. This graph shows a comparison of the projected population growth along the I-49 corridor in South Sebastian County to Waldron. And the I-40 corridor, Ozark to Van Buren. From 2024 to 2049. The I-49 corridor shows a 40% growth projection, significantly higher than the modest 15% projected in the I-40 corridor. The completion of the I-49 extension is expected to enhance regional connectivity, alleviate traffic congestion and stimulate economic development by providing improved access for businesses and residents. Some projections have the finish date at 2035, but most believe it will be completed by 2031. Redirecting the nearly $3 million already invested in the Vesta property towards a more suitable project or selling it back to an entity or private landowners would represent a more responsible use of taxpayer dollars. From our perspective, all options should remain on the table. If the state insists on pursuing large scale economic development, the benefits and burdens should be equitably shared among all the affected communities. A retail development in Northwest Arkansas with similar soil composition, bedrock challenges and topography serves as a reference point. Excavation and fill were used instead of blasting to manage costs. The dirt volume moved was 300,000 cubic yards total, 100,000 cubic yards removed on site and 200,000 cubic yards brought in. Upon encountering large scale rock composition, on-site dirt removal increases to a cost of $225 per cubic yard on average in this region. That's the number breakdown for that site removal, but projected costs for the prison if 60% of the prison site requires similar preparation, dirt work, costs are estimated to exceed $100 million at 225, I should say 225 cubic yards. This estimate could easily increase another 45 million. The lack of government transparency was one of the most devastating parts of this for us. We had no voice at all. We had no consultation. Our legislators, the people we voted in office to speak for us did not know. There were false assurances during the subcommittee hearings, the state officials claimed no site had been selected, despite the location being under contract at the time. The dismissal of Congress, residents were told they would learn to like it. Dismissal of concern, sorry, residents were told they would learn to like it, disregarding legitimate objections and local opposition. Opaque budgeting, no detailed breakdown of the $470 million project estimate was provided, raising concerns about fiscal responsibility, and we still do not have an answer on where that money is coming from. Unaddressed infrastructure and workforce issues, key logistical and economic challenges were not openly discussed or evaluated with stakeholders. Some things are worth fighting for and Mill Creek Mountain, along with the communities that surround it are certainly among those things, for those of us who call this place home, it represents more than land. It's our history, our heritage, and our way of life. We know our plea may seem small compared to the priorities of the state, but we ask that you pause for just a moment. Picture the things in your life that you hold most sacred, the parts of your world that give it meaning, being transformed into something you neither chose nor wanted, and having no voice in the decision. Just for a moment, we ask you to see this through our eyes. Some of the people sitting in this room today, provided these photos of their family members who settled that land. This is a bad deal for every Arkansan. We know the stakes, we understand that many legislators approve of this prison and the site selection. There will be a lot of pressure from the governor's office to fast track through committees and break ground. But we implore you to examine this with a fine tooth comb. At a minimum, Demand a delay in the process, so a thorough side assessment can be conducted before another dime of taxpayer money is spent. Franklin County will buy the land back or work with all of the river valley to find a suitable site, but Mill Creek Mountain isn't it. If this deal is above ground, what does she need protection from? This is a bad deal for every Arkansan. I speak on behalf of the FCRVC and most in the greater community when I say that we have already claimed this victory, no matter the outcome. Thank you for listening. OK, thank you and thank you for going through a lot of slides there. There's not very many people come down here and testify, go that many slides and get right to the point and move on. So I appreciate your concerns and as you know from the, from the meeting, I, I represent and everybody, uh, I represent the top part of Franklin County, uh, Senator Stofield represents, uh, the other part where the actual proposed prison is I still say proposed prison is, uh, going to be located and, you know, at the meeting, you know, you went into the cost part of everything. And, and, and you've given like what legislators need and the people of Arkansas need is an idea of the community here, because most people are not going to know these things, just like, you know, what we talked about. I mean, Franklin County, Carroll County, and some of our counties is the same. The idea of any entity coming in and all of a sudden we're gonna have 800 people come employ. It just, it, it's not realistic. It doesn't matter if it's a steel mill, it doesn't matter if it was an auto plant. I mean, those kind of things. So that's a big thing, and I appreciate your slide. of showing the drive times to Fort Smith, and where the community is. So, uh, you know, like I said, you've done a really good detailed, thorough job of going through things, uh, you know, you talked about the topography part about like up there where, you know, you're gonna hit rock. And I mean, we've seen the pictures of, of the rock, you know, that, you know, in a lot of our area, you can't drive a fence post without hitting a rock. So, uh, is there anything outside of your slides that you want to talk about like in in any questions that you think legislators need to know outside of your presentation, your thoughts. Yes. I think um we do want everybody to know that we are not collectively opposed to a prison, even in Franklin County. I mean, we would be able to discuss, you know, open to discussing anything reasonable. We are opposed to a prison on Mill Creek Mountain. We have personal reasons for that. But when we started digging down into the data, it does not make sense for the state of Arkansas. When we got a site or a map in the in our FOI requests, we got maps of other sites that were being considered. And I did some comparison stuff and there was, there was, there were many that were better options for a build of that scale, um. And why they didn't Go with those. I don't know. I don't know what the barriers were there, uh, but it does seem that they did jump on the land, um, coming available in Franklin County rather quickly, and the site assessment is showing that they didn't do, uh, several things. Like, for example, excluding the labor pool numbers that, um, you know, the unfilled vacancies and things like that that already exist in Franklin County. None of that was considered in the site selection data. Yeah, and I think what people, the people of Arkansas need to know, and I set up at the town hall, it's like this is the reason it's not so much in the county that, that I represent, but it's also in 2017, you know, we were, this, this crime crisis that we have, which we do have a crime crisis in a lot of ways in a, in an overcrowding. I mean, this started all the way back in 2010, 2011. This just didn't pop up. So it's been a series of selection of bills that came through the legislature and really it's a lot of that, the bills they voted on and underfunding, not taking care of the problem, and it was like year it just, it's like milk when it started smelling bad and instead of dealing with it, they just kept sticking it back in the refrigerator to the point we're at now, um, So If you look at some of the statistics that I've got and I've shared with you guys and I hope to, to share this when we have, you know, our upcoming session is because we're gonna have to reset the argument. And I'm not, I'd say if it's Franklin County, I would say if it's any county in Arkansas because of, you know, Right now from the Department of Corrections, I've got 2 out of 3 inmates are originating basically from 8 counties. So if we don't look at the overall picture of this, it's going to be Franklin County this time and then in 68 years, it's gonna be another county and it's gonna be another county so we have to overall look at the whole problem. I mean, uh, Senator Tucker's pointed out, we have one of the largest incarceration rates in here. So with that, and I know I have some more questions. I'm gonna recognize Senator Leding if you have a question. Uh, I did, but also just a couple of comments. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I apologize. I walked in a little bit late and you'd already introduced yourself. Is it, is your last name, is it Cadenia Kadena Kadena, right, well, thank you for being here this morning. I do want to echo that. I know this took a lot of time and it's not a short drive to get here. Uh, but I do appreciate you being here this morning and presenting, um, so much information. I do wish more of our colleagues were here to hear it, but I appreciate those that are here. I don't represent any part of Franklin County, but I do have family in Alus and Ozark, and in fact was down and out this just last week for the Thanksgiving dinner there at Saint Mary's, so down there quite often and I'm certainly sympathetic to, uh, what y'all are going through. You, you answered my question that I was gonna ask, um, it does sound like your chief objections are the process by which this specific site was selected and the specific site in question I was going to ask if there are other locations in Franklin County that you'd be willing to, uh, consider, and, and you said that it's, you're not opposed to a prison in Franklin County. It's just this specific site. Yes, yeah, and, and for, for the reasons that we stated in the slideshow. I, I missed it if you mentioned. Are, are there other, did you name those other particular spots in the county or? No, there were no other sites that they had listed in Franklin County, they had several, uh, they had mulberry, Alma, Fort Smith, Greenwood, Huntington, Mansfield, Boonville. There were many other sites that they had mapped to make sure that they fit the criteria, um, and then when the Franklin County land became available, they added it. It wasn't even in the original assessment. I do I just do think that's important to note that it's not necessarily people can be against this project. It's not that they're necessarily against building a prison. It's just the process by which it was selected because it's, it's one thing, uh, I do think communities should have been part of the process, but it's one thing for them to have been left out. It's a completely other thing for your own lawmakers, the people who represent you here to have been left out of the process. So thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. And I, and I think one thing in Adam's up here, uh, One of the biggest problems we're having right now is a lot of the questions I'm sending the governor's office, I can't get answered. I mean, is that being a lot of the questions that you have, uh, and state your name whenever you speak, uh, are you getting your questions answered when you're asked some specifics of anything, um, Adam Watson, I'm the chair for the legal and legislative committee for the coalition, um, not only are questions not being answered, but FOIA requests are either being flatly denied or answered in a way. we know the answers are misleading because we have the documents. We've come by the documents we've asked for and then been told they don't exist. So the governor's office, despite their Commitment to continue to engage the community now that they're talking to us, um, has it not been forthcoming with information. Specific questions aren't being answered, um. As far as budget, as far as site selection, as far as pretty much anything we ask. Yeah. And that's one thing, you know, when I worked on the 17, looked at the prison and what was happening before. And I, and I mentioned at the meeting, you know, when you look at Utah, uh, their prison was about 275,000 per bed or 280,000 per bed, uh, Alabama, for example, in 2021, they gave an estimate that for 1.3 billion, they were going to build 2, 4000 bed prisons. They're trying to get done with one of them. Now, they're 40% or 50% done, and they're estimated at 1.3 billion. So that's over 300,000 per bid. So that's why when the governor gave the estimate of 470 million for 3000 beds. That's about 156,000. That's almost half the cost. So I just now this morning emailed Mr. Barker and I copied Senator Stofield to know, you know, we, we need to know, what did you know and when did you know it? I mean, we're not even getting that, but we also need to know who, who gave you these estimate? because they're so out of bounds from what's happening nationally or anything reasonable that we're seeing. So, I mean, hopefully, we'll be able to get those answers and if this is going to be, the, as I say, the people that are gonna be the most impacted by this should have been the first to know, not the last. So now we're still trying to find out the answer of, if it is gonna happen, you need to know the specifics of what are you going to put on the people of Franklin County. So, uh, Senator Stubblefield, you're recognized. So Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, I, I got on the phone last week and called a friend of mine in Blythe, California, where there's a large prison located on the California Arizona border. Uh, he's been there 40 years as a guard. He said, when I first came to Blythe, it was a thriving city they had department stores, theaters, all types of amenities for people. It was a nice town. He said 30 years later, it is a waste. Uh, you, you don't, you don't even, you wouldn't recognizela California. And uh I asked him, I said, was it because of the prison that was built there? He said, partly, but it was the, it was the families of the prisoners who moved to Blythe. Who brought in uh contraband, all kinds of drugs to get into their families, members. And by the way, we, we still have that problem here. We, uh, from what I understand, we, uh, arrested the Catholic priest in Tucker Cummings just 3 weeks ago for bringing dope into a prison. They were, they, they take footballs and cut them open, fill them with fentanyl, throw them over the gates, the prisoner get them in the morning. A lot of people don't know this. This all happens in prisons. A lot of these guys don't ever get unaddicted. I mean, they stay addictive because they find ways of getting and a lot of it's brought in by guards. Well, there's no question you can ask. I know I chaired that committee. A lot of the people that work there bringing in the narcotics. So, uh. To put, to put a prison but to go and uh put it in perspective like uh Senator King, King said, there is no way. Knowing in this world that we can ever build a facility of this size. For 300 in in the FOI papers I've got show a lot less than 470 million. They show in the 300s. We can't build this thing for a billion dollars with the cost of materials and, and workers right now. In, in the country and the in the inflation that's going on, there's no, there's no possible way and when you look at the dynamics of Franklin County. Especially in that area, a lot of retired people, a lot of people that, uh. are incapable of working as guards in a prison because most people have no clue what it's like. When you're moving prisoners from cell to cell. Are you moving prisoners in vans and by the way, we, we, we bring guards in from Mississippi over to Berkey in eastern Arkansas because we can't find workers there. And Charleston has a lot of, I know I've lived there all my life. We have a lot of people that are elderly who are not going to work as guards in prison. And I'm not sure there's a lot of young people that have a clue as to what it takes to, to work in a prison and that feces thrown in your face and spit in your face. You're not gonna last very long. Our prison system has one of the highest turnover rates in the state agencies as far as people working there. So there's a lot of things to be considered, uh, when you talk to prisons in other states, same problem. Same problem. But what really bothered me about this whole thing more than, more than even that was the fact that the people of Franklin County, including myself, were cut out. From even knowing about something this large happening in our county. And that, that is uh one of the most un-American things I have heard since I've been down here, and I, believe me, I've heard a lot. Uh, uh, that, that was uh totally unnecessary. We should have been notified of that. In fact, uh, I'm of the, uh, belief that this was this information was known about back in July, maybe even June and uh We were, we were kept in the dark about it. That's not the way the Constitution works. That's, that's just not the way you, you, you have removed the voice of the people whom this will affect, and that's not the way this country, it's not what this country was built on, so, uh. The cost of it, the effect of the people in Western Arkansas and the mere fact that there were Other places. Other places that were willing to donate land who wanted the prison built there and they, that met the criteria of being 60 miles away from another prison facility. All that was just discounted. They did not take any of those into consideration. It had to be. Western Arkansas. But not Northwest Arkansas, the river valley. Mhm And, and you, you go out, you would have to go over to Oklahoma. To, to pick up enough people to uh staff a prisoner of this size because it will take 1000 people, 800 people won't, won't do it. Those figures are being thrown out there. It'll take 1000 staff. Workers to to maintain a prison of this size and to build a waste disposal facility and then they have to run it 8 miles to hook on to another one that we're not even sure is capable of, of handling that much waste. There's so many unanswered questions that we don't know. And they're pushing this forward. Uh And, and like I said, the funding alone is enough that, uh, All of you know what it costs to buy groceries. And, and everybody has to pay that. So, when you go build a house, you can't even build a garage for less than $20,000 nowadays. And uh there, there's a couple of houses not far from this prison. I don't want that probably cost 5 or $6 million. And, uh, there is no way you can build a prison like this for 3 or $400 million. No way. And I have, I'll have more to say, Mr. Chairman, when time comes. It seems up for when you had the meeting with the governor, they were saying it would take months and it'd be a while before they do anything. Is that correct? Or Yeah, you might, and, and you said there's a while, but the thing about it is, I mean, we're here now that there's already bulldozers on the place up there now, so. Yes, sir. That's what we're hearing, so, um, So, uh, Representative Springer, you're recognized. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I'm Joyce Springer representative for District 76. I would come over and uh participate in this meeting and just say hello to you all and say thank you for your contexts. I have been contacted by several persons in your county about the prison, and I appreciate their contacting me, however, you know, I'm not, I don't live in your district, but I think for you to bring the concern, I guess it had to do with some comments that were made in some committee meeting that I was involved in and so they uh made contact with me, but I'm happy to see you all here. Thank you. you for that presentation. I thought you did a very good job in presenting the information to us, so I just wanted to seeing you again. Thank you, thank you, and I, um, I do Thank you Senator Clark, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, and I think lots of us take FOIA very Seriously And The Uh Got a couple of questions. Uh, my experience with the governor's office up till now. Uh, has not been anything. Uh, but transparent. And I've had nothing to do with the prison. So this. Uh, are you able to validate. What you said about. Uh, the foyer, uh, request being unanswered. Or misanswered. Uh, if I can pull up one brief example for you. I'd be happy to. Just give me 1 2nd to find it. I think Channel 5 or somebody, uh, tried to request something that was another one from a media source. I was just looking for one for my self individually. Um, but just as an example. Um On On November 13th, I sent a FOIA request to the DOC. It was, they confirmed that I was a Franklin County taxpaying resident that I was entitled to the information. They said my request was very broad and may take over the three-day statutory period to respond to. I had 5 groups of Questions and. In that request from the period of June 1st through the date I sent it. By the time they did respond to me. Which was November 27th, so over 2 weeks after the request. They stayed at affirmatively that between June 1st and November 13th. There were 0 communications between the BOC and Vanner Construction. That there were zero communications between the BOC, its chairman, and the DOC related to a new prison. And that there were 0 quick communications between the Board of Corrections or its chairman and Mr. Profiri. In all three of those categories. I think anybody In the state at this point could say, That's patently false that those documents don't exist. Um In response to one other question. About communications between the BOC and Lindsay Wallace. 30 email communications were produced that were one-sided and incomplete, and again, that was over a 6 month request period. Um, my last question was about reviews, analysis, studies. Anything regarding due diligence at the subject property. And the only response was to refer me to the lake published on the DOC website of their site site analysis. Um Which we have. Since received. Further studies, further information, further emails that would be responsive to that request. So in my opinion for all 5 of those categories, not only were they not responded to in the statutory timeframe. They were incomplete. And for at least the 1st 3 categories, they were the. It's flat out impossible that those documents don't exist. I understand your viewpoint, but let me go back to the first one, certainly, uh, the first one, was DOC, the board of it, I apologize. I, I just had throat surgery so if I'm not clear, please I just want to clarify because I'm thinking DOC, but it was BOC uh, the, the Contorted company that was hired. OK, uh. The now the law allows. For If they let you know that it's gonna take longer than the time frame to go longer than they let you know that it's gonna take longer than the time frame to go longer than you. But, but beyond that, that was not the governor's office that was the board of. Corrections. That's correct, and I, my, my statements earlier regarding FOIA. Troubles that we've been having are government-wide, those weren't directed at the governor's office in particular, outside of the news vibe for him well, that's why I was asking my questions because I heard you say. And maybe I miss her, the governor's office, and I did say that it was a misstatement. I meant state agencies that's, it's not forgivable that any of those. Mislead or not answer, that's what FOIA is about, uh, and they should, uh, uh, and again, a lot of times we're hearing you, if we were hearing them, we might have a a suitable answer to our question, and I think they, uh, should answer for that, but it, but in clarity though, that it was not the governor's office. No, you're exactly right, and, and, and just for full transparency transparency, I intentionally left out. any requests of the governor's office because they had already denied the 5 news for you. And Sighted the AG's ruling that they were not gonna be producing information, so I wasn't going to waste anybody's time asking for it, and I don't again, don't know, didn't know anything about that. I've been out of the country for a couple of weeks, so, uh, the, and this is not my district, not my area. The uh But you send me a FOIA request, you're not going to get an answer. Uh, you'll get an answer and that is that I'm not. Uh, and, uh, that I'm not subject to FOIA, and there's a very good reason why the legislature's not subject to FOIA or at least in most cases not subject for it, so I don't know, uh, but what the governor's answer again since I'm completely unfamiliar, the governor's office's answer is correct, especially if they refer to the Attorney General, uh, but, uh, the others, uh, uh, am disappointed in, uh, if, again, I shouldn't even say that I would like to have answers as to, uh, and they because again they may very well have suitable answers as to why it happened that they may not, uh, but I, I appreciate you bringing that to our attention. Absolutely and what I what I did find telling about this, which I'm, I didn't come prepared to talk about all of it today, so I haven't sent it to you. I am happy to do so. Um, but what I found interesting is that this was not a denial of the request. It was a positive. statement that the documents do not exist. That's what was more troubling, so if that turns out to be true, that is very troubling, and I'm happy to get you this information after the hearing. Thank you. Thank you. Senator Leding, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ms. Kadena, again, thank you for this presentation. I assume it's gonna be available on the legislative website as part of the materials this committee discussed today, but is it also available on the Franklin County and River Valley Coalition website after this how do we access that website? Is there a URL that's easy to remember or can people just Um, if you scan that QR code. Um, that if you go on to any of our social media, um, anything you you should be able to get there, but I will happily email you the links in it's gonna be uh good for people even who don't live in Franklin County to have access to information because as we discussed, this person is going to be built somewhere and that anybody even they don't live in Franklin County, should be aware of the process and, and get involved. I have a second question for the chair when I reached out to Director Gerty at BLR a couple of weeks ago to confirm that lawmakers would have to vote on the transfer of the land to the Department of Corrections. She confirmed that we would, but she wasn't yet sure which ALC subcommittee that vote would go through. Do you know, uh, if there's been an update to that, that's not a vote that's going to take place this month, right? Or do we know? I, I don't know. We can try and find out that answer and see if it's up. I mean, of course, the agenda for that is not out till after next week and a lot of times those things we don't know till the last minute, right, but with ALC becoming that week being I guess the week after next, I just want to make sure that none of us are caught flat-footed and that there's a vote coming up we don't need to know about OK thank you I don't know if I can give you any input right now on that piece, but I have some if I can. Mhm. Go ahead. So, so our understanding from speaking with, uh, Senator Stubblefield and the rest of the representatives at the. Hall was, you're exactly correct, the ADFC purchased while they had, it would be. At the legislators will transferring title to Either the building committee or the DOC, whoever needed to be operating there. Um My FOIA request after to the DOC was for the ADFA. Their chief counsel council contacted me earlier this week and said that they're intent is no longer to transfer title of the property, but that's not how the ADFA works. They will retain title to the property in their own name and grant operating authority to whatever intergovernmental agency needs it to be able to operate on the land while title remains with the ADFA. Um They could not answer a question based on FOIA, so I'm still waiting for the 3-day period to see if a document exists as far as a lease or operating document, something like that. I assume it does due to DOC operating bulldozers on the property right now, but it appears that the ADFA does not intend. To have a vote through the legislature to transfer title. Well, and that may be some of the. Ways that things get done down here. Like I said, when it comes to plumbing, a lot of times it's not straightforward for obvious reasons, but it was hard for me to find an answer to the question, if you email me those questions, then I'll email them to the appropriate people and we'll see if that, and I'll copy Senator Stubfield and Senator Ley and then and see if we can't get some answers but and I sent Senator Clark, the, the Channel 5 story about the governor's office denying the FOI request. And so, uh, let me talk and I know we probably kind of want to wrap up, and I know we're going to try and have some more. meetings and, uh, you know, where the people of Arkansas understand a little bit more about this whole situation. And I do think honestly that we need to look at the whole picture of Arkansas because as I said, when we have such a crime problem, you know, happening, you know, we're gonna have to address that problem, which is separate from the prison problem, uh, but the water issue, you know, up here in in my district, in my area, you know, water is a big issue. We have a lot of poultry houses, you know, poultry plants that use a lot of water, uh, What about the competition of water up there in that area. Can you touch on that again? I can. Uh, so we've For the last, for as long as I can remember honestly, uh, had water problems in Charleston specifically. I mean, Charleston is just had, they had to go to Fort Smith to get water. That's been some better, but they're still looking at major problems in the city itself. There was a poultry operation that wished to expand its business close to the build site. They have 6 turkey houses and wanted to add 6 more, and they were refused a permit due to lack of water, um, that it would not be able to sustain that. Our understanding on the stats that were put into the site survey were that there was a 3 million gallon excess from River South and Ozark. Uh, however, when we consulted with Mayor. Hall She said that that she said that's not true. She said, I'm, I'll try to find the information for you, she said, but when Butterball runs a 40 day cycle and they're in, in Ozark, they pray nothing breaks because it, it's a very, very volatile situation, and they, they do run short. So we don't know that there's an adequate water study that's been done. Uh, we know that they've contacted River South and they've contacted Fort Smith about water, but water has traditionally been an issue, and it would be incredibly difficult to get water on that particular site. Those surrounding ranches rely on wells, and they dry up sometimes, and a lot of times, you know, they're just very sensitive, um. So that's what we know about it right now, but, uh, we are waiting on more information from Mayor Hall about Ozark's particular numbers. And that's what I appreciate you coming down here because it's like, and I will say this, a lot of times you get told by agencies or the governor or whoever it is, and I've been under 3 different governors now. So and let me just tell you, it always happened where they tell one story down here, everything's fine, but then when you learn from the local people up there, you get a different conflicting story. And that's why it is very critical and I hope Mr. Barker in the governor's office start answering, you know, what kind of facility you're building for 3000 beds because if this water issue because once you get in, you know, the Water usage is not going to come till the end. And so once you invest in all this and all of a sudden you find out you can't get enough water, well then we're stuck, and that is my biggest thing is, before we start this process, we're maybe moving way too fast, and we need to have a holistic approach to this thing, uh, not just the state, but also locally in the impact of, you know, cause like I said, these prison building companies, when they get into the thing, They know once you're in the 1st 40, 50 million, you're in for as much as they want or it's gonna take. And I will tell you, like I said, Alabama, for example, they're not even getting done with one prison what they thought was going to build to just 3 short years ago. So I appreciate your testimony and I'm letting, you've got a question. Just one quick, uh, follow up based on Mr. Watson's comments. It sounds like lawmakers won't be voting on the transfer of land, but can we make sure that we, uh, confirm with BLR whether or not lawmakers will still need to vote on whether or not ADFA is able to grant this operational authority to whatever agency is going to be operating the company. Just make sure that there's not a step that we miss you out with that, uh, and we'll get Blake to help get draft the question. We'll get it to Marty and the appropriate people and Senator Sofield, you'd like to be copied on that too, wouldn't you? And. Uh, we'll try and find out the answers to that because if that's, if the land transfer is now staying with the building authority, then, uh, that may be something they're delaying either normal in the process or, or just to get around another boat. So yeah, what's interesting is when, when the ADFA board approved the purchase of this land, their minutes reflect that their intent. Was to purchase the property for the purpose of transferring title to the DOC. And we can, and we can Blake, I have notes on this that I, I'm happy to send to you to help your questions. OK, and, and maybe one of the things is we can get with the board of Corrections to see what the water uses is and some of these other facilities where we can double check and get audit maybe to find out the answers. Are you guys open to that too about trying to find out some of that stuff, OK. I have that question. OK, uh, Higher, I think we've covered enough right now from the start. I hope to have some more meetings on this before the session starts and I know that I appreciate you guys coming down here and being thorough and being able to answer questions. We'll be visiting again and we'll try and see what happens after this meeting and then after this, we will, we will go from there. But I want to thank you for your testimony. Did any of our members have any more questions or anything? And Representative Springer, thanks for your questions earlier. You didn't know you were going to be famous in Franklin County, but you definitely are now. So, uh, anyway, but, uh, I want to thank you and if there's no other questions, I'll call this meeting adjourned. Thank you. Thank you for having us.