Education Committee - Senate

First thing off the bat I'd like to do is we have pages here with us a number of pages here, so I'd like to introduce them all and Lily Sims from momel, Audrey Potts. From academics plus and Mom, Ella Dein, West Side Consolidated School in Bono. Uh, Corbiian Holmes, UAPB. Margaret again Madeleine Crawley. Easter McDaniel. And Randy Davis, glad to have you here. And OK, I will turn the table over to you on my purse. Members will be looking at Senate Bill 90. And Senator, if you will introduce yourself, and you're welcome to proceed. Senator Jane English district 13 and good morning and basically what this is is a very short bill, but it really gives a um the public an opportunity to, um, Have have a voice in their opinion before a business. Businessession starts at a A school board meeting, so, um. They have an opportunity to come in and and speak of they won't be able to talk about a uh. Employees or about teachers or students or anything like that and the school board will be able to decide how many minutes they want somebody to be able to speak, but the bottom line is, is that In today's world, people really need an opportunity to be able to voice their opinion and to be heard. the freedom of information, and we need that desperately in schools in some areas, some schools or districts are requiring that uh the public fill out a form, a 4-page form, and maybe 2 weeks later they get to know whether or not they get to be heard, but this gives everybody an opportunity sign-in sheet and the school board decides exactly how many minutes that people can talk all that. That's it. remember if anyone have any questions? Senator Murdoch, you're welcome to ask a question. Thank you, Chair. Uh, Senator English, I, I think we may have spoke on this, but I've spoken to many people about this and certainly agree that access and opportunity for the public to participate is very, very important. So this is nothing against that. The only thing that's very volatile about this piece of legislation as it is written is there is no filter and there is no fence for someone to come and speak and once something is said, then it's out there and you, you're right, you say what they should not say. But the reason why there is a provision in place in most districts that do this is because they go through that process of making sure of what the content will be. What this bill would do is allow for the chaos to ensue and then behind it, go and try to catch up to it. I think a responsible way of doing it. Is that we have a filtering process. That make sure that we won't have coaches, teachers, administrators, vendors, all kinds of chaos out there that then the the district and other members of the community, you have to go and catch and deal with. So again, this is not saying don't speak. Totally up with that, but with a something in place previous to them speaking. So if you, if you think about it, if we said that same thing here. If we said that he only, you wouldn't get an opportunity to sign up to speak for or against the bill, this bill or any bill in the legislature if it had to go through a filter, we would not accept that at all. So my response to that is you do, you do have a filter because when they sign up, they're only allowed to speak on the bill, that particular bill that's there. So that's a clear filter and we in the chair. Does a good job of making sure that the conversation is concise to that point. What we're allowing for if we do this this way is whatever someone has to say, unfiltered. Then, so what the process is in place does, it does exactly what you said we do here. It allows for the sign up and then we have the bill itself that keeps us in line. So I think The idea is great, and I agree with that, but we need to have something so that we don't have the chaos that will ensue. For the district. We should not hear in Little Rock create. These volatile this piece of legislation because school district and school boards are very, very, very contentious. What we do up here ain't nowhere near the local politics that go with school boards, as you know. So I think we will be doing a disservice to our local school districts and getting and disrupting educational processes if we just allow this to be unfiltered, but again, I'm not saying not to have access and not to speak. remembers anyone else questions, Senator, you're recognized. Good morning, Senator English. Uh, I appreciate the bill, you know, I think. Last year sometime, uh. go I was Hearing news about problems with the public coming before the school board. Uh Addressing or speaking their concerns with Issues I see in the bill you have. They should speak about things that are within the duties of uh of the school board. And I heard you mention in your presentation that The local school board will still be able to have policy concerning how to implement this if it becomes law. Does that include time limitations. So it'll be up to the local school board doesn't say anything in here when we have a large group of people here and I can set 3 minutes as the as the time or a minute or whatever school boards could do the same thing. That's up to them to make that decision. Then the Request to speak. Is uh says they may utilize a sign up sheet. And That is just Immediately before the meeting itself. Just like we do here. OK. Do you think that's Well, I don't know when the school board agenda is generally published. Is that it's supposed to be 24 hours in advance. For the public, for the school board meeting and if they have an emergency meeting or a special meeting, it has to be within 2 hours of the of the meeting. So this applies but he should know what the agenda is before the meeting starts, OK. Well, I think I'm OK with your bill as long as it allows for local control to local school board to control. How long the meeting is and how long these comments might be. It does restricts them to Not addressing personnel issues, that kind of thing. They can't come up there, parent can't come up there arguing about why they child was disciplined or whatever, but they can speak to the disciplinary policy. It could, if that's on on the board agenda, yes, they could do that. So they're restricted to speaking only on what's on the school board's agenda. Whatever's in the school board's authority. So not everybody is in everything is in the school board's authority. Sometimes that's in the superintendents authority, but as I heard you, you said. They can speak on what's on the agenda. Only Well, that's up to the policy. I mean, that's up to the school board, so they can open it up and say they can come in there and speak about any policy that might not be on the agenda. It's yeah, thank you. remembers any other questions? Saying no further questions, we have several people signed up to speak. Uh, Karen Maynard. And you're speaking for the bill, is that correct? If you would introduce yourself and your welcome to present. OK, my name is Karen Maynard. I'm a member of the PCSSD school board, and I'm here to speak for um SB 90, so I was a parent before I was a school board member, and I did use my time to go and speak to my school board, and I think everybody should be afforded that opportunity and I'd love to have questions if you guys have any questions of a school board member. Senator Flowers, you're recognized. Thank you for your presence um, so your experience at your school district. Has it been, um, has the school board been able to make policies. Concerning Speaking at school boards. Yes, our school board currently allows public speaking, so we do 3 minutes at the beginning of the meeting, so they have an opportunity to speak on anything that we're discussing that night or anything that's within our purview. So our, our board president is usually ask that they not, um, that they do have a First Amendment right to speak, but that they don't mention names if they can get their point across without doing that. So your support for the bill since you all are already pretty much doing this. But as a parent, I knew other parents in other districts that didn't have the same opportunity as me, and it's very frustrating for not just parents, but stakeholders to not be able to address their elected officials. So you're, you're aware of school districts that don't even have a policy for allowing public comment, yes, or if they do, it's a very complicated policy like what Senator English was talking about where they've got to fill out forms, go in person and show ID, be there 5 days before and then you have an unelected official making the decision on whether they get a speaker or not. That being the school board president superintendent. OK, well, that satisfies me, um. And you think this will take care of those local policies that You have some With such as not. How did you say that? How, how did you put what some schools are, oh, some of them are, I think there's some that are actually restricted to no comments, but then there's others that they have to go fill out a form, 5 days before in person with ID and it gets very complicated for a parent to be able to do that. And, and, and at your school district. Are they limited to speaking just on what's on the agenda? No, they can speak on anything. So they get 3 minutes and we do have a sign up sheet just like we do here and I do, I do find it kind of funny that we have to have public comments on having public comments. OK, thank you. Thank you. Members of the questions. Saying no more questions. Thank you. Thank you. Next we have Mike Hernandez. I sent her. She said OK. Mr. Duffy, are you going to be joining? If you would both introduce yourselves. And then you may proceed. Brian Duffy, Superintendent Alma School District. Mike Hernandez school administrators Association. And so first off, we just want to say um thank you to Senator English. She has been very open to feedback, uh, tremendous. I know probably several people have have hit you up for for different items and so she did during her opening remarks clarify some of the things that uh we initially had some concerns about and so first off, when we talk about uh comments before the business agenda, we think that this still districts when I think about business agenda, that's anything that the board's gonna take action on and so therefore if the school district has um. Any celebrations, recognitions, reports that don't require board action, those can be completed before, um, in their policy before any action items or business items are taken up, um, given the districts some flexibility and how they set their policy, uh, the other part, uh, when the language was taken out about the the specific 3 minutes, uh, we understand that like Senator English does about specifically a board can set parameters and give control just like the chair and this committee has control over public comments. Um, and so we appreciate those. We also appreciate that the, the fact that there is some uh. Some language in their specific to not. Uh, talking about students or uh that may come up in an expulsion hearing or other things, uh, also with personnel matters and things like that, not specifically naming employees, um, but honestly I I I think you know they're, they're always concerns, you know, anytime that you, uh, deal with public comment, especially shortly after the days as most of you remember when we were dealing with masking and vaccinations and all those things. I mean school districts took a big hit and so everybody's really gun shy and nervous about. the, the things that are taking over, um, the only thing that we really have outstanding that we're You know, would like to see something in the bill about um and I think Senator English may agree on this is, you know, it is still very open-ended to, you know, people coming from other states, you know, we saw that especially during the pandemic where people were roaming from school board to school board and and highlighting on social media about whatever specific topics trying to bring that to the local community, um, so if there was a possibility of looking at something where it's restricted to residents of the school district, businesses of the school district. Parents that had kids their school choice to the district, uh, you know, we would welcome a change like that, um, but at the very least having some restriction to has to be a resident of Arkansas just like boy is that districts get, uh, by and large, those are always restricted to being Arkansas residents that are using up, you know, state resources, state time and things like that, and so, uh, I don't know Doctor Duffy has anything to really the only thing I would add is just the concern in the, you know, to have guard rails since we deal with children and those things that already been discussed, uh, my district, we have a public comment period. At the beginning sometimes people sign up, sometimes they don't, and, and I've had it in my career both gamuts where there was a a advanced notice filed, but it was usually fairly easy and, and no issue in my experience, uh, but as long as the guardrails are in place, uh, for that, that's a major concern with kids and dealing with staff as well. I know y'all have plenty of contacts if you want to write additional language, you're certainly welcome. do so and add that Senator Murdoch, you're recognized for a question. Thank you, Chair. Um, thank you all for being here. So let me go through a scenario. I'm a former school board member as well, have been to many school board meetings that I've seen several scenarios, so the what I bring to you is from real life experience for the most part. So a scenario whereby You have someone to come. And, and they, they, they speaking. This is this is without a filter as the bill is written without a filter, no guard rail as you mentioned, and someone comes to speak. And they say whatever they choose to say. And the chair, the president of the board or whomever is chairing the meeting, they go to pull them down. Now the room is full. Of people And this is where it really gets contentious and this is what we have to be very careful of on things that don't matter, it don't matter. But when it matters is what I'm talking about. The room is full and that board president go to pull that person down to say, hey, you're getting out of bounds. Hey, you're going too far. The room erupts. So now we get a scenarios like we see in other on on YouTube and some other cities that I don't want to name when you see their school board meetings, they just get out of control. We must maintain it, we should maintain control. So what I'm saying to you is look at the position. Do you agree? And do your superintendents agree that they want to see their board meetings and your board members whoever is is giving you input, they agree with doing this. And you got, you got to legislate to the situation whereby it's going to be a volatile meeting fully the room is full. They start to say something. That the crowd loves because it's controversial, but that's when we need the most control and the most order. So tell me where because I'm hearing from your administration as early as this morning. So tell me how this is OK. Are you saying this is OK as written without guardrails, and so I would say that, you know, There are a couple things like the in-state piece that we feel like it or in resident districts that can help control some of that, um, because of the, the fact that the way we understand it is there are guardrails that the board can set as far as policy, um. You know, it, it is much better than when it started out, I guess that's what I'll say, and, and part of the whole, you know, in making legislation is kind of a negotiation process sometimes and and with all the different stakeholders that have an opinion. And so, um, It's gonna be different for those districts that that don't have public comment it's going to be different and you know I always say and I had a discussion with Doctor Duffy this morning. He reminded me of an old mentor that said, it's not the superintendent, it's not the school district's meeting, it's the board's meeting and so it is going to be incumbent on that board and those leaders just like a chair in one of these committees to keep control of that meeting and if they want to let it get out of hand and you know, whether it's in a public meeting or, you know, which, which everybody nowadays, it doesn't matter if it's in a public meeting. because it's on social media and you know, sometimes those can be more harsh because people are more brave, you know, on those things that perpetuates in forever and so, you know, I, as long as there's good training and understanding about what the rules are. I think this can be managed, you know, it's, it's, it's gonna be different in every district in every different time that something comes up and so, you know, a lot of that that you talked about describe happens now because we see it all the time. You can read the newspaper this morning and see that there was, you know. you know, some, some comments and a little bit of a chaotic meeting that might have happened in a local district and so I think it's going to be a big difference for districts that don't have a public comment or have a very restrictive public comment process. Well, I certainly agree that it should be a process, so I'm very, very believing. I believe in transparency. I think the public should be able to have input. So those districts have nothing. I do agree it should be something more so though I agree or I feel that it needs to be something responsibly done. I think we're doing something now possibly if we pass this without guard rails and without a responsible. way of maintaining control because I see it happen on YouTube or in the paper this morning. That gives me more. Uh, more impetus to try to prevent this and when I present legislation or vote, I'm going to vote to prevent what we see on YouTube or what's in the paper and putting up guardrails, it does not restrict necessarily. What it does is gives the district an opportunity to review preview to make sure it's in accordance with what this says it should be. What we're saying let's do, let's let it go. And then let's go try to catch it. And I'm saying we're putting people in a bad position if we do it without a guardrails. We need to do it, but we need to have guardrails. Would you agree? Um, yeah, we need, we need, we need definitely guard rails on this and of course most of us, a lot of us live stream meetings. We do in my school district. So yes, when things are said. There they are, and so. How we do policy, how we do our procedures would hopefully set those guardrails, if we need additional language here as Senator Sullivan has recommended that we could, we could work with Senator English on that if uh Um, you also choose. A some language as it's written. Thank you. Welcome. Senator Flowers, you're recognized. OK Mr. Duffy, I didn't catch what school district you're with Alma district. OK. And um Mr. Hernandez, thank you for being here. Does The Department of Ed Have oversight or do they review Local school policy. Even Public comment or what this bill would allow. Do school districts have to submit to the Department of Ed. So of course just to clarify I don't work for the Department of Education anymore or I'm sorry, where do you work? So I work at the administrator association, but I can take a stab at it as far as policy is required to be posted on the school website, and that is a law that the the department I know does check to make sure you're in compliance with all those policies as far as What they say and those types of things. I don't think they, you know, obviously want to make sure they're in compliance with law, but I know those policies are all publicly available on the website. And it would be the department that sets the rules. Makes the rules. I know local school boards will make rules concerning this legislation if enacted. But does the department have any responsibility. To make rules regarding This, if it becomes law. Do you know? I do not know that, but I don't, I don't think so. Is there someone here from the department of Education. We have to speak to that. I don't see anyone here, Senator. I'll check outside and see if there's someone I'd like to know what if any recourse. I would have person from the public. Or even those. School board had I know you can't speak for the school board, so we'll need to have someone I'm not sure on the school board come in. Well, I'll put it this way. In your districts. You're from two different districts, right? So Is it your experience that the Department of Ed Can sanction or nicks. A policy that's been set up. I, I certainly think it would be possible if there is a policy that's in place that's not in compliance with law that they could provide feedback to the district and request that they change it. I mean, I, I could see that scenario, um, as far as the, the board member question. I do know that there is a new ethics process that's been set up as the from the last legislative session if there's something that may be out of line and and. Not following proper procedures or ethical behaviors, um, so I do know those two things would bring that up at the state Board of Education, the Department of Ed, is it in the way of a complaint, what do you know? I do know state board has a public comment period that people utilize quite frequently about various things, um, as far as the ethics piece of it, I, I believe that may be something uh. I'm not positive that's not with the Secretary of State's office. I don't know who's over that part of it. Senator English, do you know? I don't know. OK. Thank you. I would like to hear from the department. Senator King, do you have a question or comment? Thank you, Mr. Chair. So my brother was on the school board for 16 years, so, and now he's on the court, but so I do understand that I do have family members that are public school educators, retired, uh, so I understand all the concerns about that, but so, you know, Senator Murdoch's bringing about Bringing in guard rails and I understand that. So and we just, as a lot of times down here, we make laws and we think we know, but really we don't know what we don't know that can happen and you talk about Facebook live streaming, things like that, and open up, but according to Senator English here. I kind of like, I know he, Senator Murdoch too, we get along like guard grills. I like kind of no rules. Where the superintendent or the people running the meeting can say if they do allow public have to allow public comment period and someone brings up personnel issue that is outside the bounds of being troublesome, they can at least with Senator English bills, maybe she didn't answer her. They can set rules and say, We cannot allow Personnel issues to be discussed in this public comment period. And so they can set rules going forward and we can look at it for two years, how it works and then come back two years later. The good thing about our system is we can just see and then come back and and correct it, but so the, the, this gives the school boards freedom to set rules. Of how they deal with us rather than us put rules on there that we just don't know what they're going to do or come up with. Is that right? OK, the second part is, and this is a big question to me, is, does this apply in English to private schools to get the they don't usually have school boards. They usually don't even have school boards, so we have two different standards boards. Yeah, I understand. So, OK, members, any other questions, Senator, we're looking for representatives, we'll call them to the table if they come up. Thank you very much. Next we have Mike. Shanikel, is that correct? Mr. Chair. Thank you. I was going to see my time today to someone else as I have some other matters that I was going to be speaking on today, but I'd like to thank you, Senator English for being brave enough to bring this bill, I mean, to bring this bill forward to allow citizens to have the ability to interact with their school boards that are elected by citizens and have a say in what goes on with our children within that school district and and I I truly thank you for that. I thank all the members that are here today for, for hearing this bill, and I hear Senator Murdoch talk about guardrails. The guardrails are already there. School boards have laws that they are required to abide by, which does not allow comment on hiring or any infractions with with teachers or students. I'm not a member of a school board. I'm a citizen of Hot Spring County. I have a school district that does not allow public comment and we have been to school boards at this district many times seeking information that is not published because not only does my school board not allow public comments. They do not publish the minutes of their meetings. They did not find it. did not provide financial statements for the school district, and it is imperative we know where our tax dollars are going and how they are spent and how our children's educations are being handled within the state of Arkansas, and I think you guys are doing yeoman's work today and making sure that this bill SB 90 gets passed because it is important that all citizens have the ability, as you have here today, to come and have public comment and expect a certain level of decorum when you're doing that, and that is within the school districts. Purview to ensure that that happens. It is not the, the, the. The will of the people to have have the Elected Legislators dictate what we're going to be able to talk about within our school districts and how we're able to be to address the school board, I expect people when they address school boards and as I'm addressing you today to be professional with their comments, with an expected outcome that our children's best interests is what we're looking for. Thank you, members. Any questions? Senator Flowers, you'll recognized. I'm sorry, I did not hear what school district you were from, ma'am, my children attended Glen Roe School District. My oldest daughter graduated last year. I'm still a taxpaying member of that school district, but Glenroe School District and Hot Spring County, Malvern, Arkansas is the county seat and you're saying they don't even allow public speaking. No, ma'am, they don't allow the public to engage with the school board at all at any point during the school board meeting or even Have a discussion after the meeting is adjourned. They allowed the school board members to leave the room and then the superintendent will have a discussion with you once the school board is adjourned and and that is how they have have worked there for several years now and, and. I'm very proud of you today to to say that and I support this bill 100%. I think many citizens of the state, whether no matter of your Your party affiliation wants to be able to interact with their government officials, and that is a government entity within our school district. OK, thank you. Thank you, Senator. Any more questions? Say no, thank you very much for your testimony. Next up, Missy Bosch speaking for the bill. Hi Missy Bosch would introduce yourself, and you may begin. I'm from Cabot as a parent, and I also have reporting for Arkansas News over the abuses that schools have been hiding. I was going to play you a 2 minute and 32nd clip of when in 2022 I was fighting. To allow public speaking at Cabot and because they denied us, we actually filed a petition with got the 50 signatures and they paid Billingsley and Key, Beckett Billingson and Key to figure out a way to circumvent that, and they still didn't allow us to speak at a public meeting, and they made us write down our concerns and hand those over and then they decided not to read them all at the public school board meeting. So I would like to address your concerns, um, you said that there should be a filter process because the parents are allowed to speak we'll abuse our time and chaos will ensue, but addressing the board really is our last resort. There's parents that's that signed up today that actually already marked out their names because they were afraid to public speak, um, and you may mention parents getting on YouTube getting riled up, but that wouldn't happen if they were allowed to speak at the school boards. Parents just want to be heard, um. The First Amendment isn't the First Amendment Public speech isn't public speech if it's stifled and it has restrictions. Um, the problem that we're finding is that superintendents are denying parents records of their children, punishing victims of bullying and hiding abuse cases, even some of them being teachers. I mean, I would want to know if my my child had a teacher that actually was caught abusing other kids and so shouldn't the community and parents know these things if there is a filter, the board will never place our agenda on the on their item list. So if schools are open and transparent, why are they afraid to hear parents, the actual stakeholders who entrust these people to protect our babies, voiced concerns about the superintendent's failure to protect our children or they even refuse to acknowledge the parents of problems. Just this morning after I released that article on Cabot School District bullying, I've already had 25 messages in my inbox asking me what to do, and I'm not an advocate. I'm just someone that's just open to hearing people's problems. So what I would say is that parents should have the right to address because it really is their last. The only time that I've seen in Cabot things get done are when parents post online on social media and put information online. And so If you don't want kids' names to be out, parents are left with no other choice but to say so and so bullied my child. What do I do? The school refuses to acknowledge it, um, I've been on the forefront, like I said since 2021 and these schools are allowed to use my tax dollars to hire lawyers. To shut me up, but I don't have that kind of money, just free money in my pocket to hire lawyers to go back and try to fight them to allow me to speak, and that's really all that I I wanted to say today. Did you have a question? Thank you, Senator Murdoch. You have a question? Yes, or a point of clarity for you and whomever may come before or after you to speak. Um, if you, if you heard my testimony, I am not saying you should not have access. I am. Affirming Access. The only thing I'm inputting. Is order and how we do that. So please be clear, I am not saying you should not have the ability for all those things that you mentioned. Uh, we, we agree. So what if it is a teacher, sir, that I, that has not been punished or the superintendent and I have to acknowledge, hey, you know, this superintendent failed to give me my FOIA documents. He keeps allowing bullies back in school with kids that he sexually assaulted. Where do we go? I mean, Cabot has a very big problem with this, and so if the board never hears about it. How do we ever get it fixed. So allow me to respond. That becomes what you have, what you just the example you just use as a legal matter. It's not a public comment matter really, but you can't go to your elected school board member, I'm sure that you would elected in zones or however you all do it, so there is access that you have to those people, the public comment, so all of that should be taken care of what you just mentioned. That is very egregious, legal, and that should be handled. I agree with you. Now I'm talking about how you do it, a public. Comment does not make that happen or effectuate that. What it does, it gets it out there, which still doesn't fix that problem you had. I'm talking about fixing the problem in an orderly manner versus just causing what may be and should be to some degree chaos, meaning Public gets upset when they hear what you just said. It's not being addressed. If that's factual, but what I'm saying to you, how you fix that. It's through another mean or mold, not a public comment. But again, I'm not saying public comment is not good, it's just the order of it and I think you, I think you're supporting what I'm saying, be honest, because of what you're saying. It's something that needs to be taken care of in a very different way by by you or whomever that the public comment don't fix it all. At all, but it definitely needs to be handled, so again I'm just talking about order. That's it, and so what we've encountered at Cabot is that we have emailed our, our board you know I ain't gonna talk about cabin that's that's a conversation or let's just say the parents that I've talked to because I didn't just investigate Cabot. This is my personal experience. We email the board and we say, hey, we have these issues. And they are essentially being ran by the superintendent. They, they don't have the power over them. I have Little Rock. I have Nevada school. I have all of these. They are not, um, the board is more beholden to the superintendent and does what he says or she says rather than the board controlling the staff that they hire, so your school board, let me just say this in general, not about any of those districts that you've named. The school board is your legislative body and you as a public. You elect them, so you as a public can make decisions about their performance in general. That's where that happens. Public comment is not gonna fix that. The ballot box might fix that or some other mechanism, but if you have, as you so described a board that's not beholding to versus taking care of their business independently here at the legislature, the governor is is is the judicial, I mean it's the executive branch. We're the legislative. We have a role. She has a role as governor. There are two separate roles, so that has to be done in a different way, but the superintendent's not elected. He's hired and so by the people you elected, right? And so we have to wait till that election comes up and you know they they do things behind closed doors. We have no idea what the finances are. We don't know what what is going on in that school because they get it ahead of time and so we're not allowed to ask them. And then when we do, they shut off our mic if we go off. topic currently and it's it's absolutely, it's not just Cabot, it's everywhere. I've I've got so many stories and I think you guys are disconnecting from the fact that these people are supposed to oversee our babies, our kids. I mean we have more stake in this than I do right here right now with you because it's so individualized and totally agree with you and nobody has a voice. I totally agree with you, but you do have a voice, and where you have that voice is in a different place, which is electing and responsible people to represent you because that information for you could come to you in various ways. It can come in a public meeting or it could come from your individual school board member for your zone district or wherever you are elected that is responsible to you because you voted for them. So Bro, I think that's a whole different conversation. That's a whole it work that way. It should be like we're kind of going in a circle here, yes, So additional comment. No, I'm done. Questions members. Thank you very much. We do have representatives from the school board on the state Board of Education, if you would come to the end of the table. The Department of Ed, yes, that's what I was trying to say. If you would introduce yourself and Senator Flowers, you're recognized for a question. Good morning, Courtney Salis Ford, chief of staff for the Department of Education. So, Ms. Ellis, I don't know if you, you obviously were not in the room. No, ma'am, I apologize. I was just trying to see what the recourse is for Um School boards, well, first of all, the rules. Of school boards concerning public comment. Are they presented to this. Department of Ed for review. No. So they more than likely wouldn't have rules. They would have a school district policy that sets forth any criteria or the process that they require for for individuals to sign up for public comment. Usually they make those available on their website, but they're not submitted to us, um, as part of our standards for accreditation review process we do review school district websites to make sure that all applicable policies are on there, um, but without any authority to actually say what that policy should be. Um, we just make sure that the policy is there, not look at any of the specific requirements. So you all don't make a determination whether a policy is in compliance with the law. We don't have the authority to say whether it's in compliance because there is no specific law right now that talks about what has to be in that policy. You've seen this bill. Yes ma'am. Do you think that would give the Department of Ed? More opportunity for review and to make sure School districts are in compliance. Um, so we would have the authority to make sure that they have a policy and that it gives the public the opportunity for comment, um, whether again any of the specific information, whether they limit it by time, by residency or anything like that, that would be outside of our purview. And if you know, does the state board of education have any role in this. Process could a parent or a member of the public. Who felt like they were not um allowed To speak or had some complaint about the policy of the school district. Are they able to go to the state board of education with uh their complaint and also I'd like to hear about this. ethics part of this. Um, so our state board does allow for public comment either specific to an item that they're hearing or just in general and so if a parent wanted to come and speak to the state board, they could sign up and do so, um, we typically limit public comment to 3 minutes, um, however, that doesn't mean our board has authority to act on that, typically, again, we would have to have specific authority in statute to say to then act, you know, so they'll listen to a parent. A parent can give public comment, but the state warden may not necessarily be able to take. action. Um, going to the ethics process and some of the things I heard, certainly if, if any teacher administrator, any licensed person, if someone suspects that they are doing something unethical or unlawful, they can file a complaint with the professional licensure standards board that gets investigated. There's a very lengthy due process and then that does eventually go to our state board and so at that time any member of the public could come and speak to the state board on that item as well. And if this becomes law, Senate Bill 90. With that fall into that category of items that could go. Through that ethics. process. I mean, even without Senate Bill 90, if anyone feels like there's a licensed educator who's doing something unlawful or unethical, then they can file a complaint with that board. Well, you say licensed educator, would that include the school administrator and the school board? No, not the school board, just the superintendent, principals, teachers, assistants, anything like that, but not the school board. We don't have any purview over the school board. OK, so reading this, then the board of it mentions. The board of directors. So this would not fall under that ethics and as it relates. To filing a complaint. No, because again we don't have any authority over school board members as elected officials are only authority is against licensed educators, superintendents, administrators, teachers, etc. And your review process at the Department of Ed, you say does not really result in any kind of sanction if there is a noncompliance. If it's something that we have the authority to act on and and find noncompliance, yes, but there are many things that are outside of our authority, um, particularly concerning school boards. So reading the language of this bill, would that be within your The Department of AIDS Purview. So our authority would be able to make sure that they had an uh a policy and that they are affording the public the opportunity to speak, that that would be the extent is to make sure that they have that process in place. OK, which is not there now. Not in all school districts. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Senator Murdoch, you're recognized. Thank you. Quick question, do you know the process that the state board uses for public comment. Yes, so in our standard operating procedures you can either um request in advance to be placed on the agenda or if you just show up on the day of the meeting, you sign in, um, if it's on a particular item, then you get to speak after the presentation of that item, if it's just a general comment, then it's at the end of the agenda. Thank you. Em, any other questions? Thank you very much. Next to speak for is Kimberly Ladee. If you would introduce yourself and you're recognized as speak for the bill. My name is Kimberly Ley and I, uh, Live in the Cabot School District. Um Madam Chair distinguished members of the Education Committee. I come before you not as a politician but as a parent and citizen who believes in the fundamental promise of public education that every child deserves a voice, and every community member deserves to be heard. I'm not here as a critic, but as a partner in our shared mission to create the strongest public education system in the nation. When we restrict dialogue, we don't just silence individuals. We fracture our communities. We create divisions where there should be collaboration. We model for our children that disagreement means dismissal rather than an opportunity for understanding. We must show our children that real change happens by bringing everyone to the table and listening, truly listening to each other. Our constitutional rights to free speech and open meeting laws guarantee us the opportunity to participate in public meetings, but the reality of school board governance throughout our state tells a different story. Arkansas code 6-15-1702 explicitly requires schools to recognize that a parent is a full partner in the decisions that affect his or her child and family. When when the Arkansas legislator crafted the family and community engagement statute. They understood that education is a collaborative journey where every parent and community member plays a vital role in nurturing our children's potential. The laws established our right to partner in the decisions that affect our children, the decisions made by the school board we elect, yet superintendents are serving as gatekeepers, often blocking us from addressing them directly. Somehow these administrators have forgotten a fundamental truth. They work under the direction of the school board, and the school board represents the community members who have elected them. While Senate Bill 90 eliminates the requirement for advance permission to speak without a guaranteed speaking time. We risk still silencing parents and the history in districts across the state. It makes me fear that they will set unrealistic. Time constraints. I request a 3 minute time limit just like the Arkansas Department of Education does for theirs, even the Arkansas School Board Association, uh, new school board member handbook even makes that recommendation and there should districts choose to have a public comments, uh, section of their meetings. 3 minutes isn't a privilege. It's the bare minimum needed to truly communicate a concern. Try explaining a complex educational issue of budget problem, or a safety concern in less time. You can't. School board meetings are often the last resort for parents who've exhausted all other channels, and they deserve an opportunity to be heard. Senate Bill 90 is more than legislation. It's a statement of who we are as a community. It's a declaration that in Arkansas we believe every voice matters. We trust our parents. We respect our communities. That we are willing to listen even when it's uncomfortable. Please pass Senate Bill 90. And let's show the nation what true educational leadership looks like. Thank you Thank you for your testimony. Any questions, members? Say no questions. Thank you very much. Like speaking against the bill is Gail Choate. Oh no. Yeah, I, I was going alternate again. Oh, sorry. Wrong Bill, uh. Melanie Fox. You recognize speak for? Good morning. My name is Melanie Fox, and I appreciate you allowing me public comment time today. Um, I am a former school board member in Little Rock, Arkansas. I served in 2006 to 2012, and then again, I was appointed as a cab member from 20 15 to 2020 roughly. So I've listened to plenty of public comments, and much of those during 2006 and 2012, it was very divisive, closing schools, switching principles. So I've heard a lot. But before I was a school board member, I was a parent who came to speak before the school board because my child was in first grade and the math instruction was not doing the trick. They weren't teaching basic math facts. I also spoke about lack of resources in some of our schools. Which all of that led me to Masolorin and Serbing. And Little Rock School District still provides public comment. We do, or they did, and we did when I was on the board set some parameters at the beginning of the meeting when we Announce public comment time saying, Do not use names. Be respectful. We're limiting you to a certain amount of time, try not to be repetitive. Don't talk about personnel because we were respectful Furpa, uh, due process rights and all of that. And 99% of the time, everybody that spoke adhered to those rules. In the 1% of the time we would of course correct them during public comment, but it didn't happen very often at all. So I'm a big believer in public comment. We, um, want our parents to be involved. We want our community to be involved. Yet some school districts are not allowing you to email a board, nor make public comments. So, but really, uh, there's a school district in a smaller school district in the state, and I'm helping a parent with an issue there, and it was a bullying issue and the school district does not have a board member. Email addresses on their website. They do not allow public comment without going through the superintendent. This mother Went to the principal. And was not being heard and felt like nothing was happening and this these were violations of board policies, OK? Bully in laws. She then went to the superintendent, and she then asked the superintendent specifically, I would like to come to speak before the next school board meeting about the bullying and issues that are happening. And the superintendent said no. You said it's been handled, but it had not been handled. And when she pressed on, he continued to say no, and she said, may I send an email to the board, and he said no, he would not give her email. And she said, Well, how will I contact the board? And he said, you can send a letter to the school. To him So, fast forward, There was another lady, a parent. That had a similar issue. It was a bullying issue and a full threat issue, and she went to the superintendent and asked to speak before the board, and she was allowed to. So, it's an unfair process when some parents get talking, some parents don't. But I believe if we expect our community and our parents to be involved in our school is a right to listen to them. Many other agencies, quote, City Board, State Board of Education, this legislative body allow for the public to comment on issues before you all, and I think that right should be to every parent and community member in the state of Arkansas towards the school board and I'm happy to ask any answer any questions. I did take some notes. Um You know We had a process in Little Rock. On what to do when something went wrong and it was in the student handbook that students and parents both had. It was a flow chart and descriptive language telling you how to resolve an issue, and that was to go to your teacher, then to go to your principal, then to go to, there was a step by step process and the very end was the board. So they had means to address issues before coming to speak to the board and coming to the board was kind of a last resort to help them. So I'm happy to answer any questions or any concerns you have any questions? Sen flowers, you recognize. I just wanted to, so you're for the bill? I am for the bill. I am so sorry. As a board as a former board member and as a community member and parent. Thank you, thank you for your testimony. Mac speaking for Gary Newton. Mr. Chair I Next speaking for Jared Cleveland. And if you would please introduce yourself. You're welcome to speak for the bill. My name is Jared Cleveland. I'm superintendent Springdale School District. Um, I'm here today in my capacity. Thank you, Senator English, um, actually speaking on the bill. I don't. Know really what That might be as far as 4, but um, management is a sometimes a hard thing to do in a board meeting. A lot of things have been shared today in regard to uh opportunity to speak in Springdale, our board is very open and wants the public to comment, but we did live through the COVID era, and oftentimes people wanted to have an opportunity to grandstand. We had that opportunity and so instead of putting it in the very front of the meeting. Oftentimes we'd have 100 to 120 students that we celebrated. We put it at the end, so when there was, if someone wanted to grandstand, they did that then and we've allowed that to happen and continue. Um, I really like Your bill, I think and our board really likes the uh the opportunity for public to speak, but there are occasional bad actors. And when those bad actors want a platform, then it becomes difficult to manage. FERPA has been mentioned. We have a responsibility to make sure that students Uh, records are, are sealed and maintained. Personnel law also trumps. That's why we don't allow people to talk about other employees, but when those bad actors have that opportunity to grandstand what does a board do? When Senator Murdoch talked about chaos. How does, how does a president control the room without looking as if he's trying to squash a First Amendment right. That is a very hard thing to do. And when you have 3 minutes and someone's wanting to be viral on YouTube, that's difficult. So the bill I think is really, really good. We would like to maybe potentially add some things in our district since it's OK, right, to add opportunity having the we put our agenda out usually on a Friday and have a board meeting on Tuesday. That's plenty of time. What we would like to do is have an opportunity for the public to comment and writing on any particular items, have those for the board to read as well and then have an opportunity for each particular item to have public comment, just like the state board does. I think that's really good. But if there was an opportunity, Senator English, to have miscellaneous or something at the bottom. If there's not. If someone just wants to grandstand, have that opportunity at the very end when kids and others aren't there, much like what the state board does. The state board seems to have it done well, and I think sometimes that can control the chaos so the kids can be gone. That's the only thing that I'd like to consider. Remember, does anyone have any questions, Senator Murdoch, you're recognized. I don't know if I have a question as much as I appreciate the point of clarity that you're saying. I mean everything that you said I agree with, I agree with what you're saying you do, and you acknowledging the real fact and you're living it, so you're acknowledging a real fact last night, sir, yes sir, that what happens and we're talking about it before and after and how we manage chaos is what you're talking about. So I'm just open to this manage it some kind of way besides just letting it be wide open, and you've given a real example. And once it's out there, it's there and many people are just trying to grandstand. They don't care about the things that all of the people that have spoken that really care. About the true educating of our children and bringing real matters to the fore. There are people that have come and sit in that chair. That I truly believe that's what they want to see happen, yes, and those people deserve right and they deserve that, but those grandstands that you and I and everybody today trying to get on YouTube, trying to go viral for a lot of reasons they were utilize these things for that. So I think management of that is all I'm saying, which is what you said, so I appreciate that. I've heard a person say, my job's done. I'm now on YouTube. Yes. Thank you, Senator King, do you have a comment? You're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Doctor Cleveland. Uh, so you've been at Lavaca as we talked about in Springdale, you know, the, the difference of being in a small school versus now here at Springdale, right? Yes sir, yeah, so I mean, obviously it's Springdale you allow public comment to a bigger school it may have a lot of time. So this still gives you some flexibility and work and be able to handle a situation if you were in Lavaca or Springdale. So if you have this situation of like where somebody is doing slander libel, and it's, you know, out there. How do you handle that situation because you have to have a First Amendment rights, but you, you don't want to have liability issues of allowing something, so how would you handle that in Lavaca or Springdale? Well, it's really hard, you know, as the superintendent, I'm, I'm just over here on the side. It's the board's meeting and the president's in control, so the training of the school board is very, very important, and I'll tell you our school board will often give deference to the speaker, you know, we allow a certain amount of time and when that bell goes off, Often they'll say the time is up. Most of the time, the the people say thank you. But when that grandstander is there, they'll continue and continue and continue and oftentimes their voice is elevated, much like last night, their tone becomes rougher and then they blatantly violate the rules of decorum to the point RSRO or someone else has to come and stand, and then it becomes this viral moment and and that's what's regrettable and no one wants that except the person doing the speaking and that How it's handled because there's no alternative. OK, and I understand that's some of the concern back here and I appreciate Senator English giving the flexibility to have, as I say, she's making a rule but allowing no rules to handle it so we can see how things go. So I appreciate that. And then the other thing I'm really going to put you spot on as people don't know your dad was former Speaker of the House down here who I appreciate that. And then the other thing I'm really going to put you spot on as people don't know your dad was former Speaker of the House down here who long time ago, so I'm the thing I'm gonna put you on there, which is worse, grandstanding people at school boards or grandstanding politicians, which one is what I don't know of anybody that's a grandstanding. politician in this room. Thank you very much. Thank you for your testimony. Sing no more public comment. Um Senator, you're welcome to close for your bill. I'm closed for my bill. And motion to pass a motion. Got a second the discussion. All in favor say aye. All opposed. Congratulations you pass your bill. Yeah. you recognize. Yeah Um, may I invite Miss French to the table to help me present Miss French, may she come to the table with me to help, help Brian. So this is 13 Bill 1 election bill, right? OK. So Senator Justin Boyd Fort Smith. So our Constitution has a provision that requires the millage to be voted on every single year. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective, that millage. Doesn't go away whether the people vote yes or the people vote no. It stays the same. So the only way that the millage changes is if there is a vote specifically to change the millage. And so we had a situation in Fort Smith where the Fort Smith Public schools had to conduct an entire election, and the only thing on the ballot was an unopposed millage that wasn't going to change, so basically what that amounted to is the The school district had to pay for an election. That was basically a public opinion poll, and it just seemed like a very inefficient uh unwise use of taxpayer dollars because there was going to be no outcome, no change, nothing, and then people get frustrated when they came, they come in and they vote for something and they find out there wasn't even really a reason to vote other than to cast an opinion, so this legislation and Ms. French is here who can help with the details, basically creates an open transparent And constitutional way to minimize the time and expense of an election for an unopposed village. Or unchanging village, I should say. OK Sure. Haven't worked these newmicrophones, it takes a minute. OK. Lindsay French with the Association of Arkansas Counties and also representing the county clerks Association, um, Senator Boyd came to me with this bill back last summer and the county clerks were very happy to support this bill. One of the uh One of the most unpleasant parts of their jobs after an election is people coming to them saying this unchanged village failed. It did not get enough votes to pass. Why did our millage not go away. So it really causes a lot of confusion among voters having to vote on an unchanged village. This just follows a process that is already in law for unopposed school board members, um, this bill has been, um, including feedback from the county clerks, the state board of election commissioners, Secretary of State's office, uh, the school board Association, the Benton and Washington County Election coordinators as well as other state attorneys. There's no known opposition. It's just a good common sense bill and as Senator Boyd said, it will also save taxpayer. Time and money. There are questions from the committee. Senator of flowers. So every year, The millage is on the ballot. Is it Under, uh, Article 14 section 3. The board of directors shall submit the tax at the annual school election, so yes, for approval by the voters. With, with the caveat, Senator, if there's no change. It's just a public opinion poll. So we're, we're spending taxpayer dollars using government employees to literally conduct an opinion poll, which would be fine except for to me that's just wasteful and we're here to try to create more efficient government. I, I just, I wasn't there when the Constitution was written. I don't know why that is there, but it's there, so this is an open transparent way. It doesn't take the election away, but it minimizes the amount of government resources that have to go into conducting. it, um, and it's still transparent, people still have the ability to see at the school board, you know, would present a resolution, all of that is public, so, um, I, I just think this is the best way we can follow the Constitution, keep transparency in place and still not waste a lot of taxpayer resources and to Senator Boyd's point, this does have to be by request of the school board, so it does keep in place local control too if the school board. wanted to go ahead and keep it on the ballot. They certainly could. So in some years, is that the only issue on the ballot? That that's exactly what happened in Fort Smith Public Schools, and I think it happened in other school districts as well, but I know specifically because like all good elected people, there's an election, I go vote, right? And so, but all I really did is cast my opinion privately as to whether I thought the village was good or or or bad or whatever, it didn't matter whether there were more yes votes or more no votes. Nothing was going to change and so um When That ballot is presented to the public for voting. Does that align in those years where we have Other state elections or presidential elections, or do they have a different Uh, time for That Being on the ballot if it is in a year in which there's a primary and general election, then it has to be held in conjunction with those elections, so we're not actually asking for something that's gonna. Be outside or at a different time. Then what we have for primary only in the odd numbered years when there wouldn't be a general or primary election, and the school election would be the only thing on the ballot. And that's how it is now, OK, we're not changing anything with that. OK. Because I think I got email from some that were saying. It would cause some kind of unnecessary. Um, ballot. And That there seems to be some misinformation and It does, it's there's nothing in here that is going to keep it from being posted to the public. It is transparent. The school board has to request it. There's still an election they still publish the results of that one vote of the election. Nothing changes. It's just to to spend thousands of dollars to of public dollars to conduct an opinion poll on something. It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't think that I agree with you. Thank you. Motion at the proper time. Thinner dots. Thank you, Madam Chair. Senator Boyd. The only question I have on it is if you look down on um. Like your, your Fall back if the designated voter Doesn't cast a ballot or show up, the county commissioner is the one that casts the vote, um. What if they're not a voting member of that school district. Like, doesn't it have to be a registered voter of that particular school district that casts the ballot. For the village That is a good question. Um, I can, I can check on that and get back with you, Senator. That would be the only thing that would I mean, just sorry, it just came to me as I was. like I, I would, I think it's a great question. I would still appreciate a do pass and if it needs to be amended, I promise you it will getended because it's a good question and I'm willing to vote for it as is, but that might be something that throws a monkey wrench and stuff if check into that before you get it all the way through the process. Thanks. I will, I bet I can get an answer from your coordinator on that question today. There are other questions. I think you only get a ballot. For the district you live in. Oh Senator Davis, thank you, Madam Chair. I think it's, it says, um, Line 5 of page 2, that talk about holding the election and says through the selection of a qualified elector designated by the public school district. So I think that's the qualified part. I mean you have to be live, you have to pay the district taxes to be able to be qualified. Right. Right, if That is if the designee or member of the County Board appointed by the district will up here it says the district selects a qualified elector. Down here, it talks about that designee or the county board of Election commissioner that was appointed by the district. That's right, qualifies that top just doesn't say it again at the bottom because it already you're only the designee if you're the qualified elector. That was designated. I'm 1312 and 13. Bryant. Yeah, I just, I'm gonna follow him for clarity because I think that Senator Dotson. What he's, I think what you're saying is that school board is going to designate a qualified elector that will be qualified to punch that ticket. If he doesn't show up or she does not show up during the day, then the county board of Electors, which is 3. 3 commissioners they may or may not live in the district of which needs voted on for that village, but we're saying they have permission to To vote even though they may not be part of that district. So the concern would be, is that a valid vote. Right, yeah, I mean constitutionally speaking, I'm not talking about statutorily we can authorize it but constitutionally do they have to be a voter with standing to vote within that district. If, if I may, um, I, I do see in the constitutional provision where it says if a majority of the qualified electors in the district voting, so I do see your point, um. And maybe that could be changed or amended to a qualified elector appointed by the election commission if the school board doesn't. Appoint one that could fix that problem. I think that's certainly something that we could get amended on on the House and Senator Boyd was amenable to it. It's a valid concern I'm just asking, please don't make me come back to this committee. I'm just, I promise you it's a valid concern. I hear it and I will either get a correct answer to you or uh I will get you an amendment and that that rectifies that. I hate to say it even if you on the house and you still got to come back to this committee. I was hoping you would present the amendment for me so I didn't have to come back to the committee. Are any further questions? Yeah, point of clarity, Madam chair. Can we amend it in writing? Right now, I mean, uh-huh. That. All amendments to bills must be let's go to the house. one of us can run the bill when it comes back. Yeah. And you, Senator Dawson, you can run the amendment here. Yeah, let's, let's, let's vote it out here. Let it go down to the house. Let's make that amendment down there. I, I would appreciate that very much. OK, we, we understand, I understand. OK. Any more questions from the committee? All right, what's the will of the committee? Oh, are we, is there anybody here to speak for or against the bill. Nobody, OK. Would you like to close I'm OK. Have a motion in a second, all in favor, all opposed. Thank you very much. OK. We've got an agreement there. You got one more, you're gonna do it? Yes, I would love the opportunity to get this one knocked out. OK. Senate Bill 138. So, so this will be fairly quick, uh, this came up in the ALC Game and Fish Subcommittee, and I seem to be the only Arkansan in the state of Arkansas who has any concern about this. So, um, and I, I visited with uh Senator Davis, and she suggested that I survey the schools to find out, she said maybe we can just abolish the statute, and I said that might be a great idea, but she suggested we Survey the superintendents to find out if any civil war reenactments are done and so BLR sent out a survey and one school has done a Civil War reenactment in the last 5 years, but 3 expect to have a civil war reenactment in the next 5 years. So that tells me that someone out there very might possibly be using this statute, so I'm hesitant to abolish it, Um, so what I'm going to ask whether I do it here, uh, Madam Chairman, or somewhere else. I'm just gonna ask that this thing goes. the interim study and if somebody wants to take it up and study it from there, more power to them, but I think I'm, I'm done with it. OK. Senator flowers. So you, you're prepared to put this in in study. Yes ma'am. I'm with you on that because that's my motion to we have a motion to. Send it to interim study. Do I hear a second? Any conversation questions all in favor all pose. Thank you so much for your accommodation today. And seeing no further business, we are a church.