Judiciary Committee - Senate

Just appeared roller per diem. Rest come in so I'm going to ask your buddy stand center Ballenger is going to lead us in prayer it started in center Elliott will lead us on the plucked. Thank you for being here Hey test people made on Friday. Afternoons but co with has limited where we can meet so we make when we can. we've got to agenda items the first one is civil asset forfeiture laws the second one is the impact of covert on the courts. civil asset forfeiture is something that I have been looking at Peirce pollutants and toxins I was first elected in two thousand twelve. And we have some I think some interesting testimony today it's an extremely important subject as we take property from citizens. So do we have Lee McGrath cute up and ready to go yes he's. The. Chairman Clark itself you can either leave. I I can hear you can you hear me we can are you ready. Yes and thank you I thank you Mr chairman and members of the Judiciary Committee after this opportunity what I'd like to do is walk through a very short power point presentation to lay the foundation. And discussed and by questions about what Arkansas has an active what other states have it have an active and I have and what opportunities that exist and are being considered by other states. Thank members actually just second members at exhibit C. one. Thank German and I hope members will interrupt me with with questions. So I will now share my screen. And I'm hoping that you see in. This work at your present K. right presentation. Is is it coming through. I can see you very good a great presentation for but you're Senate Judiciary Committee summary the. So. What I'd like a. What I'd like to do today is give a big picture an overview of and that will include some definitions one the definition difference brain seizures and forfeitures. Identify the different types of the property owner owners that we are faced this this issue in Arkansas and across the country. Describe a bit the difference between several forfeiture and criminal forfeiture. Talk about Senate bill three await how it was a hybrid between the two of symbol forfeiture and criminal forfeiture. Then identified some underdressed at age issues. So the big picture is that crime should not pay and forfeiture is an important component of ensuring that the root of crying is the scorched. It is a perfectly legitimate function of the state of Arkansas pine Gates municipalities the government confiscate the room and the instruments of a crime. And so the real question that exists in any discussion about about forfeiture is how question how should work how should forfeiture take place how should I go transferred from the property owner to the to a municipality or the or the this state because no one really opposes the idea of just gorging the fruit or the instruments of a crime. In Arkansas city over nineteen years a hundred and fifty three million dollars has been working. Most of it a hundred and seven during this time very has been done under state law. But. There's no jurisdiction in Arkansas as there is in every state. There is federal forfeiture is well under the United States department of justice and equitable sharing program Arkansas has received forty six million dollars back from the DOJ J.. And so on average you might think of this as an eight million dollar issue a year. Six million of it being done under state law two million of it being done I under federal federal law in coming back to agencies and art Arkansas. What's driving some of the differences of the definitions just very quick quickly this is supposed to get our audience so I will not spend too much time on this but the there is a difference between seizures and and work for Pritchard's they're often confused but they are very very different. The function of your is a function of possession it is what it is the work of police and sheriffs and highway patrolmen is the work that is done on the street and it is gaining possession of of property vehicles cash guns. Forfeiture is very different forfeiture is done by prosecutors forfeiture is the litigation of the transfer of of title it is done. In court rooms or is are in prosecutors offices as and so the two should not be be conflated and most of the reform that has occurred in the United States has been on the right side of the screen it's been the work of support is the networking process prosecutors and looking forward it should Arkansans to this committee consider. Additional legislation it will principally be focused on the work of prosecutors as it relates to transferring title to to proper property and the price is the the prosecutors and defense attorneys use. The second big difference the important definition is who are the players involved with the property owners. The first is the suspect. And he is the person charged with a crime and the question before the beef imported Jr is what's that property and instrument or the proceeds by contrast there is a second person often involved in work in your litigation done by pricing prosecutors it is an ascent owner it is the suspect's wife or girlfriend it's a person who owns the property but it I that was used but it's not charged with a crime. Parents. The local community community bank or or a holder but of a lean or the rental car company these are all innocent owners and the question. About taking the title from innocent owners is is a question of knowledge or consent. Very different from the legal question associated with the suspect of whether it is the instrument or proceeds of a crime. The thirty one definition. Is the difference between civil forfeiture and criminal for forfeiture at a simple level. Sure ordered your is that your track process it's divided the person. One trackage the person and he's prosecuted for pride in criminal court. The second track is the property. And they property is litigated Transparenz Is litigated transom items litigated in civil court I contrast. If we were to look to to the way things that occur in North Carolina or Nebraska or New Mexico you'd see a clear and clean Senate bill one track at prices. The person is prosecuted in criminal court and then in the front of the same jury saying judge in same court room the title to his property at is is lit is leading a after the election it occurs. Where are we in Arkansas in Arkansas and in two thousand nineteen Senate bill Rio a was was enacted let me describe that and then I'll identify some of the dynamics that. That should because this committee to reconsider what was enacted just a few years just two years ago well less than two years ago. So Senate bill three oh a split the baby between civil forfeiture and criminal forfeiture. It was a hybrid. It chapter eight except the two tracks system. The person I after the enactment of Senate bill three oh eight the person continues to be prosecuted in criminal court and title gets a litigated in civil civil court but what the bill did is different from what occurs in North Carolina and a couple of other states. Okay it it all it it postponed the timing. It postponed the simple portraiture litigation until after the criminal after the criminal conviction. Eight key components of this. Is that the property owner must answer. The civil complaint. And so as in this part where the litigation occurs in civil court the property owner must and must answer this symbol civil complaint. It doesn't. The conviction prerequisite doesn't kick in. And that is one of the dynamics that I'd like to discuss. It is often viewed in a and state capitals. This is the typical view of of. Of seizures and and forfeitures. The reality is quite the quite different. In Arkansas and other other states the cash use is relatively small. The median seizure in Arkansas is about a thousand dollars on a national basis it's about one thousand three hundred. Here in my home state of Minnesota it's six hundred and seven dollars and a point late in Arkansas eighty seven percent of the. Cash seizures are less than than five five thousand dollars. Five thousand dollars. What that means. Is that the benefits of this two track system is made maybe less than what legislators I or in that the size of the seizure is too small relative to the cost answered by. So what we know is that most property owners do not answer the prosecutor's blank. They do all they don't trigger this date of the civil litigation they do they don't trigger the conviction cream record requisite. And for those who don't all too don't answer the civil complaint. Property owner they may even lose their property if there subsequently acquitted in criminal court. Seventy seven percent of cases have at a default because the property owner does not insert the complaint and so the benefit that legislators had all or in by an act Senate bill three await that there would be a conviction prerequisite is occurring only a relatively modest percent of the time. There are many reasons for the default. And this is your size could have been been addressed by other other means. So looking forward looking forward. The issue is this there are a number of issues that the committee might that might consider in terms of taking the next step in reforming Arkansas has seizures and forfeiture laws one is to look at innocent owners to look at Mrs McGrath and everyone else would have their property taken because of because of the actions of a spouse or a boyfriend boyfriend or a child or rank rank child a debtor or user of a rental car company. Importantly this committee might consider the dynamics of the small sites when it is uneconomical for. For for someone to hire an attorney to try to get back thousand fifty one dot adopts one way of doing it is the way in which North Carolina a does you Mexico under brass got which is that end civil forfeiture and to put it all together as part of the criminal prosecution as part of a criminal for forfeiture. Another officer another thing the committee might consider the number of states reports in federal district courts are required is a proper seizure hearing. And of course the distribution of proceeds proceeds is always an important issue for any any Judiciary Committee to consider. And then finally the interaction tool jurisdiction that exist between Arkansas and the federal government. As it relates to adoptions and as it relates Joint Task work forces. Mr chairman with that I'll stop any by questions and criticism about about my presentation questions about what other states are doing questions about the work at the institute for justice I anything that could be helpful to you and members of the committee. Thank you. Any questions from the committee. Thank you Mr chairman Mr McGrath Senator Stubblefield. I'm I'm I'm still here January. Yes Sir and I you may have won over this but it's just a very simple question why would we ever take property from someone who doesn't have anything to do even remotely related to the crime. Property is being taken. For. I think so. The way in which seizures at I'm going to if I could serve I'll I'll I'll be returned to the idea of taking possession first. And then I'll address the issue of taking type. So why why and a seizure take place well the standard group by for a seizure bile along with a police officer or share is is the traditional standard it is the believer probably costs that somehow that that property is. Is associated with a alleged crime. And so seizures and we can take place. At at the this is court level and I think most people tend to think of of probable cause it's being below fifty percent just a good solid educated guess based on experience or based on what the police officer to seize. And so that property at that property can be seized and brought into the system are based on probable cause. Now. Your question may deal with mark the issue will forfeiture use your checking title. It is a legitimate function of government to take title from the suspect when he's convicted it's also a gentleman for the government to take title from his girlfriend or his wife or his parents if there is a consent or actual knowledge that the girlfriend the wife the parent New and endorse the use of that that title. And so to the extent and to the. For federal law allows for looking to that third party to see if they are they consented to the use or had actual knowledge of the use of a of a of a car Here one reform that Arkansas could do. Is to elevate that test as it relates to the innocent owner claimant. As it relates to the spouse parent creditor. Cetera to clear and convincing evidence and good elevated to actual knowledge that that the process and what the burden that the that the that the state would have to that the burden would be on this state the group. That the spouse New York in actually no rule or consented to the use and so in that way I think your concerns about this state taking title to property from someone completely involved not involved in the crime could be realized your concerns would be addressed by taking the number of steps as it relates to the standard approved and the and the burden that approach. Is that response to the question. Yes it is it but it it seems like it gives like an enormous amount of discretion to the to the officers who were making the arrest. As to press to probable cause because if I'm alone if my daughter. Mr Barr mark Carter and I wanted to her in later that night she picked up with. Some illegal drugs in my car's confiscated. And I know this I know this man who is a law enforcement officer. And I'll tell him that you know that's my card had no idea that she had went out and purchased some of the illegal drugs. You should my car be returned to me. Without having to go through all these. I think that caught yet if you will I did not consent or have actual knowledge of the use of that car I think it should be returned turns you is it returned it'll and a lot of cases or is it forfeited a case. In that same situation. I I think I I don't have the data exactly the number of successful and unsuccessful claims by these third parties by the innocent innocent owner claims but my hope would be should your elevate the standard and what the burden the prosecutor would would have out would eventually get to work to I would eventually establishes at internal policies. That may that would would be the basis for police officers to be more reluctant to a disease that that car when when it's clear that that that he that is it's ownership is held by someone else. I may have some questions late payment. As senator having several that. A you could write a very strict policy that is it's a and it's an honor walks in the door. You could write a very strict enters an order of protection that is an incentive a person walks in the door and shows that that he has proved that he is the owner the car should be can be returned but historically the the way in which innocent owners gain. Gain greater protection is as it relates to at a higher standard of proof on and putting it off the burden on the prosecutor to meet by clear and convincing evidence that you did not have actual knowledge or you did not consent to the use of your vehicle in your hypothetical by your your daughter for me for illegal activities. Thank you thank you for sharing. Thank you for a very good question therefore. Central. Thank you Mister chair Mister McGrath in the in the a hypothetical that we just talked about did are there any state that will take any kind of measure say's Senator Stubblefield of this this is his only vehicle it was taken without his consent and now it's been seized as anybody make any kind of attempts to say okay we'll figure out a way for you to maybe rent a car kind of like when you have a reacting you did intend for that to happen does anybody do anything at all that you know up to make that person holds while the seizure is still you know in play and are there any states that have a higher burden on the prosecutor for being able to seize it to take the. The card is case and and keep it. At the answer your first question is now that I know of no state in which provides funds for I'm at a parent at a spouse while the cars in in town impound lot. the majority of us Gates put the DO something that is different from what I'm recommending. The majority state majority state. I put the burden of proof I'm in this house on the innocent owner claimed. A about a dozen roughly a dozen states do what I'm suggesting which is what the burden of proof on the on the government to prove that the the wife or the girlfriend did not know or do not consent to the use of the of the of the top of the car. Okay thanks that's it Mr. Any other questions. Mr growth. Yes Sir of I know you're in Minnesota in one Arkansas but of. Any idea of what it costs to hire an attorney to answer. Of a complaint like this. At three yes three thousand. Dollars is the national average the we we use in. And I think that is pretty consistent and in our art Arkansas and so this is one of the contributing factors as to why the default rate is so high. That if you have have a thousand dollars in cash or a ninety nine seven how does owes mobile taken cedars scenes from you it would be the R. Kansans are rational it would be irrational to spend three thousand dollars to try to get back a thousand dollars in cash or. It was so those mobile that's over twenty years years old. And so. Take the taking into consideration the economics. As one of the principal causes. For the default rate. At this committee could establish certain thresholds. As to a dollar amounts that Shannon's these then the first place or the dollar value of an old vehicle that unity speed in the first place. How it. The difficult is it to answer the complaint without an attorney. I think that's very good it's very intimate I think the legal process extraordinarily and in intimidated. And. And so to to to follow the rules of civil procedure and answer answer complaint is difficulty is very difficult and of course the empowers the the prosecutor to argue that the complaint was insufficiently answered within the time frame I think in Arkansas it's thirty days that is needed is all that's needed at all that's allowed for answer civil civil complaint makes the. but these are these are great challenges that at our can. That I don't thank you beer a most Americans would you want to proceed. In the does it at become probable calls that because an innocent person's property of is at the location of where crime was committed this is does that constitute probable calls. Yes. How would that constitute probable calls. Okay let's take. The example of that someone selling drugs on the on a on a corner in any and and in Little Little Rock and and the regulators are that that that he may have borrowed from friends as someone that he's using the the car as a as a way of of leaving the city at a facilitating the sale. A or the cash. N. as in his pocket regardless of where it where the eight whether he got paid earlier that day a problem because the relatively simple standard. The burden is just solely on the sentencing then. What what so that the let's let's walk through that a little bit Senator because I want to make sure at. I'm I'm responsive to your your question shall the board so the the and let's just use cash birds for example. Let's assume a thousand dollars and has been S. S. Senate seats. When it comes to whether that person is a suspect. The burden is on the the US. Is on the government is on the prosecutor to prove that that thousand dollars. Was. What is a part of the property with the proceeds of the crime. By contrast. If someone if an innocent owner comes forward. The burden is on her. And so Arkansas law like most states has different burdens of proof. When it when the property owners and suspect the birds on the government when the property owner is at an innocent owner claiming that the burden is on. But. I guess that's the thing that confuses me most about civil forfeiture. Is the person not accused of a crime who then has the burden of proving. That they should get the property back. Yes Sir your your This isn't at this this is the one of the great challenges. In that this is in our. This for the innocent owner claimant has what's known as an affirmative defense. The presumption is that you that she was but she must overcome the person presents a presumption. And in layman's terms. She's got approve the negative. She's got to prove that she didn't know she didn't consent. And and so this is one of the problems that exist in the majority of states including our our Arkansas that the burden is requires the the white the girlfriend the parent to prove a negative. Okay any other questions from the committee Senator Stubblefield. Thank you Mr chairman Mr grass. How is the how the distribution of money from the sales of this for for the property has that divvied up. In most states. In most in Arkansas Arkansas. I'm not a hundred percent of the forfeiture proceeds go to a law enforcement. up to two hundred fifty thousand from a single portraiture. And most of the supporters that we've discussed or small they don't come to this two hundred fifty thousand dollar amount in so eighty percent go to police and twenty nine twenty and prosecutors and twenty percent go to the state crime lab. This includes cash. That would be cash in the sale of the proceeds from the sale of any any vehicles. And that roughly. Is the is the same four four most that most state overwhelming the league and the states have between eighty and a hundred percent of money going back to what line for law enforcement. Okay Mister president of course this is and I know this is more of a hypothetical type question but how many how many individuals do you know what loaned their vehicle. Out to either a relative or someone they knew. Knowing that they were going to commit a crime that might result in the loss of forfeiture of their vehicle. I think that number would be very low is very low Sir okay thank you Mr breath thank. Any other questions. See non thank you Mr McGrath. Mr chairman Mike my pleasure and and I have testified in in in Little Rock and I preferred to testify in Little Rock then come at to you through through zone and so I I hope is the committee considers legislation in the in the upcoming upcoming session that I can return to at I'm I'm hopeful that you often get together in person and that I could join thank you. Thank you. Of the next two we have doctor Mitch Mitchell the director of Arkansas center for research in economics the university of central Arkansas. My daughter hearing. A yes we can Dr Mitchell all right thank you thank you to Jeremy Clark thank you Committee I'm super excited to be here I'm sure he's determined sure my screen what do the same thing that leader going to go through a couple of slides and Goshen data. So I think that we know. Can you guys see what I got. I am the director of acre that's the Arkansas center for research in economics we are privately funded research center how's the college of business ECA regarding two thousand fourteen and as a condom is we like to look at data and so that's what I'm I'm sure you guys is is the data that's what we like to look at something like. So I'm gonna talk today about a couple things about how many seizures per year Arkansas size a currency cedars the currency seizures and and some non currency seizures and all of this data came from the Department from up for a request from the asset seizure tracking system as the office of the Arkansas Drug Director. And they they were super friendly about it give us a lot of data on it what maybe wasn't perfect but it was like they really did try to help out I'm I'm with you I'm sure they did day at with us that was it was great. All right so. I'm the data for two thousand tended to twenty twenty twenty twenty is incomplete it's similar to the two thousand nineteen I'll see some data at the end subsides the and that will kind of show you twenty twenty is not a weird year but we only did it through twenty twenty two August of twenty twenty. you can see the Arkansas averages about forty hundred seizures per year since two thousand ten it's about four per day said it happens all the time it's it's not like a rare occurrence that happens all the time I'm sorry about four times per day within the state and begin twenty twenty is is incomplete. So. You can see that most of the of the currency seizures are are relatively small amounts so this is not big time for the most part so. Almost half of the currency seizures or under a thousand dollars the median is one thousand forty five You can see that no we can see that less than twenty four that are not quite a quarter less than five hundred dollars a list of five hundred dollars on. Certainly not of a drug lord I don't know if you're guilty or not but you're not a drug lord your your five hundred dollars I think thirty four percent or less than two thousand five hundred. There are a few that in my mind really huge sum so there's seventeen or the last ten years or five one thousand spotted over million so there are some really big season seniors are but you know most of these are ours are relatively small is relatively small amounts of money. So here on the on the Y. axis you can kind of see that this is currency seizures in the millions. Again J. R. two thousand ten the August twenty twenty which is when we reviewed the data. We just profession so you know the these raw numbers are adjusted for inflation but you look at it overall we got and figured out so yes sixty million Justin this ten year period. from this at the state level that's seventy five million dollars totally if you just replace in. What six million per year again just appropriation seven million. And in two thousand forty was that was the biggest year so that was ten point eight million dollars seized currency are eleven point eight million adjusted for inflation and again the twenty twenty we don't have the last the last couple months. So we got one and she since the stuff about the. On. The non currency seizures you can see that we have some vehicles we have some firearms is some other assets we are trying to case in P. ridge were officer season television and Speaker computer monitor and a. Three sixty game console an Xbox three sixty. Seems pretty common topical just a wide variety of things get get picked up in the seizures are. Most of the focus on the mornings it's really easy to count I don't know what the value of the used Xbox three sixty really is but the vehicles are easy easy country of those are worth the. The currency super easy of course but the other things are just hard it's kind of hard to know exactly what what's the value of all these other things and again twenty twenty still still not complete. So. This is pretty straightforward we wanted this one to gather this data we want people to really know what was going on with the date what what's really happening out there on. CSRC what what what do you see on the news I don't think the news ever shows you know small small amounts of cash being seized in excess of a big bonus mustache but forty her seizures per year since two thousand ten again about four per day. Sixty million dollars in currencies been seized energy just replacing that seventy five million. Most easier less than a thousand dollars or not quite half almost half of them seizures are less than a thousand dollars and is less than two thousand five hundred seventy five percent of time so that's in my mind the main story is that. Most of the seizures are are relatively small amounts of money I don't have good data on on how new or old cars are to look at the currency. It's not it's not big time money. We had a couple people help us with this your new rule in Markham on we're working with us here is a second year law student now at the boy's school lottery hearing you in Little Rock Markham Oman went on to do great things and Jeremy or going might actually know these professor here UCLA. It's requested you guys have a plan on how to answer questions do the best I can. Senator Stubblefield. But. Mr Mitchell. Okay I'm have a hard time hearing you yes what is the. What is the criteria for seizing home or or property. I'm talking about a Krige it happened. The the we are do you recommend we don't. I don't actually I'm not a lawyer and so. If yes the law question I'm very wrong my knowledge of the law mostly comes from getting speeding tickets periodically and I found that if you pay those they just go away our. I don't know what other people do but I just pay my and that's really about the legal system are. Lee's lawyer not me. This question for later than okay I'm I'm sorry that's good I'm glad you project because he's I don't know how with the processes thunder G. Stubblefield center some of the if I get a a interrupt I can suggest that that in other states see you seizure of property. It's very rare it it tends to be in the preparation of of of drugs. But but even then most people who are are preparing preparing drugs are renting the the the property and so the landlord would be we would be an innocent owner claiming he would come in he would have the burden of proof he would attempt to prove that he did not consent or know about the use of his. House rented private property for the manufacture of of of drugs so as as we discussed earlier like the wife the girlfriend the rented car a company that the creditor the landlord would have to carry the burden to prove that that the the the House that his property that he was renting out was not being used so there's no other examples of forfeiture of. Homes other than drugs being manufactured in those houses. I I I know of no other I suppose if if the state has has a forfeiture is a sanction associated with prostitution I suppose that that could be another another crying but these constitute ace very small single digit percentage real estate houses constitute as single S. S. single digit percentage of forfeitures asset professor Mitchell points out much more of this is going on at the seizures are occurring I'm on the road I'm road sites thank you Mr McGrath thank you Mr. Senator Elliot. My question is for doctor Mitchell Mitchell do are you able to get this data and you know if it's kept according to demographics you know the race that's been really hard so. Usually there's not any kind of democratic thing so we can we can look at a couple of things in comics and gases but we don't know for sure so Certain names tend to be Latino and you can kind of make a gas are on that you can look at what how many people live in no certain counties are mostly white mostly black or mostly Hispanic then you can you can make it yes but you never really know. You can just have it yes and you can put together pretty good guess based on it's this person with this name from this county in this county is but would you know enough to to really in the. Yeah I don't want to guess but I would like to motivate you you'd be hard pressed short with the data that we get yes so that we don't have to guess about it necessary if there's anybody in this room who's going to testify who knows whether or not we keep that kind of information and if we don't why don't we us as we can note all these other things and I think that's really important and the criminal justice system for us to do a much better job of keeping out data so that we can do a much better job of being responsive to. I have been that are policies that are going to be equitable to everybody thank you I appreciate it. And centralism suggests the I don't know if he knows or not we as a question we're next witness. Okay I will do it. Any other questions. C. none of the Dr Mitchell thank you for your presentation thank you I appreciate thank you so much. I'll look through the data to see if I can find some some specific property examples and I'll get back to you guys as quickly as I can. Okay and so we will go to Bob McMahon prosecutor coordinator office of the prosecutor coordinator. And is that Nathan Smith. Prosecuting attorney nothing this request with them. They'll just have a seat. Which of would you like to begin with talking but so what as set forth herein how it works and the importance of it. And then we'll. And the if you will addressing these other questions you may also. Justin. We are now okay in a jump on the man prosecute coordinator can you hear me OK with mask. You prefer that we take it take it all. Whatever you're comfortable with if we have a a I can hear better issue you know my old ears need some but okay of the eight okay and end in general Senator I don't have any specific comments I'll be happy to answer any questions I will say though that we we made reference to Senate bill three oh eight which now acts for seventy six that not only did the the prosecutors actually assisted in the drafting of that specific piece of legislation to address at the time was one of the most you know most import concerns the legislature to make sure that there was a conviction prior to a a forfeiture so we we not only endorsed that we assisted in the drafting of that again of asset forfeitures is an important tool for prosecution law enforcement I mean we're these are in assets that are taken as as the witnesses already said in conjunction or use with a crime you know this is the way to dismantle a drug operations it's certainly a way to to get after a drug dealers and things like that by taking the property so this is definitely a useful tool for law enforcement and prosecutors those are just some general comments that I have with regard what we talked about today I'll be happy to try to answer any questions or any specific you know procedural questions that you have an obviously I don't have a day to day knowledge of forfeiture offices and handle those on a regular basis but I do have some prosecutors here that could possibly answer those questions if I'm able to including Mr Smith. Okay I will go to other committee members for Senator Elliott. I could you speak to the seizure part of that was talked about earlier with Mr McGrath and your thoughts about there being a higher bar up for prosecutors I think you were saying by to get mixed up before. The of property is seized. At I'm I'm not sure that there's actually a higher bar for prosecutors but I mean it is it is the prosecuting attorney's burden of proof I mean I do know ultimately I mean I know we we went to some specifics in terms of you know what the individual could possibly argue to show that they were innocent owner again whether they can you discuss your sorry number they consented to the use of property whether you know there was uh actual knowledge whether the endorsed the use things like that in in conjunction with that I would like to mention I think Senator Stubblefield asked a question about you know how many individuals would answer the question you know would you loan somebody your car to knowing that they were going to use that car for you know drug transactions woman argue that no one would probably answer that question yes you even if it were true because they're they're obviously giving the evidence needed to forfeit that vehicle so I would be really surprised if individuals answered that question you know whether it's true or not so that I just want to come in about that but I'm not sure I understood the other part of your question. What well and I I don't understand when it when it's coming out so it could you help me again with that question well he said that some states basically And I might not be using the language exactly right we're asking what could we do to help that person who is the innocent person here what can we do to our place he said place the burden as you said it's it's on the government but he just set up a higher bar basically so if it's if it's your opinion or your testimony but we think we know we're placing the burden there isn't a strong enough bar to protect the innocent as well I guess would be the question and he seemed to be indicating that what a lot of states have done is is made the board will be higher for the government to protect the innocent person was understood the example there was the the the idea of did you have to prove a negative right right right and so is in in a typical seizure of kind of sale I got selling drugs out of the ical which is common then the circumstances of that arrest create the presumption he's he's using the vehicle for that purpose right and so that creates a part of the evidence the state is going to use in the in the civil case to prove its case obviously I think the way the law is currently structured if there is an innocent owner who says no I I did not know and there's no evidence that I should have known that the person was using the vehicle for that purpose obviously we don't know what that information is our our evidences the circumstances of the crime and so I think the reason the law places the burden on that intervening third party is because those circumstances typically our own known only to them in terms of their own interaction a relationship with the person committing the crime if that if that answers that now I know there's arguments on both sides but I think that's where the lost right for the wait is not so if it's a case of just so I understand better if somebody has stolen my car and use my. The card is amended and it's been seized because it was part of the evidence and I can show that's the case yes ma'am do I get my car back and then what happens then I would be very surprised if there is it a case of someone's car being stolen and yeah and I do means that when furry over the estimated that one in a forfeiture would be filed by saying could never could never happen yeah but also I I would think that would be something pretty pretty easy to shall I think where the the the things it'll Harry is when it's you know someone with a closer relationship than that and it's did they know or should they have known based on the circumstances and the other question I ask about Follow up with I when I was asking Dr Mitchell do we have a demographics on the folks from whom the property has been right Sir that's a good question and I'm not specifically aware that but I'm I'm wondering if the confiscation reports that are filed you know when forfeiture actions initiated if that information is actually on the confiscation report and I I'll be happy to check that for you I do not know that is a report is filed with the drug director's office and I know that's I believe it some pointed at powerpoint mention that you see a got some other information from the drug director's office so perhaps that's where I would I would start and again I'll be happy to make that phone call and try to find out that's the only I. D. I have as to how we would ever have that information either that or you could cross reference it with the criminal case itself you could is that the from the forfeiture cross reference the the criminal case itself but that wouldn't doing it that way wouldn't be an easy as pushing button and finding out would you have any objection to large as having a process where it's recorded somewhere that's easy for anybody to respond rather than having to go through those not off the top of my head I'm less I have to fill that out on the sentencing order again. They're getting pretty long but no ma'am not not as a matter of policy. And I think that's important because I think it is important because it that kind of information informs us so much without our having to go into conjecture zero I just remember years ago when we were talking about some of the issues of profiling we just and have the and nobody keeps information that we kept asking for it I do you know how made you stop and you charged or didn't charge of that kind of thing and that that information is no words so you don't we don't even know where to go with it if we don't do a better job of that I think by demographics well I guess and I know that Ms US army you go ahead I know that that information is on the sentencing order I don't know if it's on the confiscation report and I I can't remember sitting right now okay we'll just you can just we can just talk about it later upon us to change that that should be a simple phone call to or up to look at a blank confiscation board seat that's on there but okay should be going to check that just let me know okay. Senator Rice. Mr a in a borderless bin laden with a total chairman of BNP minutes late. Of according to testimony by video do you agree with what was stated that Arkansas allows the this procedure assets of eighty percent to go to law enforcement twenty percent to the crime lab is that what I heard you go twenty twenty percent by statute goes to the crime lab the eighty percent that the remaining eighty percent goes to law enforcement in that district yes Sir and I think the reference to anything over two hundred fifty thousand that that's also include in the law that would go into the state's special asset forfeiture fund so it but those New York Caesar's seizures that high or obviously rare right. It in you know when we see pictures of the law enforcement that best you're on drugs is probably the most common that you say where they spread out twenty dollar bills a few hundreds and guns and the drugs and all units is pretty clear you know what what went on and I'll. Can you. Until the what safeguards do you all. The lock or the most important ones in Arkansas. To keep. Law enforcement task for sure or whatever. What safeguards are in place when you got eighty percent monetary. Basically reward. what what are those most important safeguards to to counter balance that yeah I think that's and that's an interesting question to in relation to the idea of criminal forfeiture verses civil forfeiture and they're gonna be philosophical arguments I guess for for either one but but I think the reason Arkansas adopted along with I think most other states civil forfeiture is kind of for the reason you're saying because the concern always is when the government is taking property is do they have a financial interest in obtaining a a criminal conviction and so I think the reason Arkansas went with civil forfeiture is because at the time I believe the defense bar was concerned that if they attached the civil forfeiture into the criminal case they could create what they were afraid of being a perverse incentive to convict a person of a certain crime simply in order to and and their words their figure just getting property whereas if it was a separate civil case which is what it is now they would think the the criminal side would be a kind of untainted by those fears so that's one thing I would say about it the second thing I would say any time you're talking about the legal system from the criminal justice system is checks and balances so I can't forfeit anything I have to go to a judge and get a judge to sign an order in any circumstance and so ultimately you're you're trusting the the people involved not only the attorneys but also judges to make sure that the law is followed in how these things are handled so I would just say checks and balances within the system. And specifically been on Judiciary and house and Senate I think the end of the twelve years of been down here with us to learn stuff over time we have a meeting and hopefully hopefully always will Is there a. Balance of. What the court. Citizen we're talking about did the court have to agree to a cash seizure. Any any any well again we're talking about seizures versus forfeitures so anytime the the court forfeits money meaning that person is permanently deprived of it they they are deprived of the ownership of that property the court has to agree with that a judge ultimately has to sign off on all those orders okay and we we had the I had. Scene seven in there and I ask the question in Committee week or so ago and then we had to. The director Kirk lane in the other day and I ask him the question because I'd seen something I think it was a sheet of paper the shoulders the and outline of of some things Mr I don't know if you sell it to worry even saw that with something he has to file something from the task force winders seizures I thank yes Sir it is that both on the Several and and. What what what two terms so so we have said that they were one of their amounted need to confuse terms one of their proposed one of the gentleman's propose solutions was making forfeiture part of the criminal process we have civil asset forfeiture in Arkansas so we're we're doing that in civil court just a civil lawsuit so those confiscation reports are filed any time there's there's a seizure those are that's what he does yes Sir no they're all we have to ask for which is that right. I believe any every every time there's a seizure a copy in the State of Arkansas anywhere there's a confiscation report required by law in the Drug Director key to keep so in not just the amount on Betty's office yes Sir for. Or am I right on the bottom I believe so yes and in not it's it's not only every drug task force seizure could be that could be a seizure of by law enforcement that's not a member of a drug task force if they would still have to do the confiscation ports was not it's not just drug task force looks on my district senator we don't have a drug task force we still file a confiscation reports anytime a police secondly self regardless who's in the office of Kirk's in now does that office is it's kind of a final sign off due to that office have a rat to a question our override a seizure or is he just secret simply appalling H.. He doesn't have the authority to override a seizure alternately that that rests with the judge so how it works and in my office and then County is someone will you know an officer will make a seizure and then we make a decision internally as to whether we feel there's the proof to go forward with that and so that's kind of your first check right there and then ultimately we have to get a judge to agree with us either any hearing or signing in order or whatever the case may be to do that so those are your checks but I I would say the drug director's office in addition the kind of managing a lot of the the the federal money that Arkansas gets to deal with drug task forces they also kind of function is that central record keeping location for those confiscation reports in the one thing And last thing Mr on this the the one thing I've asked the other day if if if with it was his position or somebody else's position. If the city there is things that may not be a legal may not be against the process but some things that could be done better I what I was asking him if he was the one or her or could get it to somebody that can get that out to the the task force or a law enforcement in general you know about running over people run into grayer or anything like that may not happen that much but I just I'm trying to figure out. the checks and balances are you perhaps and moisture out to all I have right now. Senator Stubblefield. Thank you Mr. Man of. Would you agree there's other ways that in the Anderson party can be involved in a seizure forfeiture other than having loaning their car out And the reason I ask you that is I have some friends who drive across country intrastate. And they have had occasions were they have had drugs planted on their vehicles. And then were stopped in other states. How does that process work when someone is driving let's say caltrop bill or. Someone drops a. Bundle of heroin or cocaine through one of those holes going back to Kentucky and they follow that truck and they try to you know make sure they get their their product back. But that drug is stopped in Arkansas. That truck is seized. The guilty parties may be behind the mental in a car truck following them this happens more than you realize. And yet they get stopped in a drug deal sniffs out the her one or cocaine in that truck that truck seized. I think if I followed your your your fax situation I think it's certainly possible that it could be but at that point of the process law enforcement and certainly had gone to the prosecutor yet law enforcement would just be doing their normal investigation so if a drug dog did hit on that particular truck in these you know seized evidence of of a drug to transfer transporting drugs then that possibly the truck could be seized in the process could of for forfeiture could be initiated along with criminal criminal possible charges so I think that early in the stage of of your fax scenario there have to be some investigation from the law enforcement and to determine whether that person was in fact an innocent owner or whether what you describe is is actually what had happened and I'm assuming if there's evidence that that is exactly what has happened then I'm assuming that we wouldn't go forward that case or or or perhaps it would never get to the prosecutor if if I would it be for that individual to prove their innocence. Much harder than someone loaning their vehicle to a relative or friend. It was it depending on the amount of drugs depending on what net no Sir is I'm sorry I'm not trying to not answer questions just a comp I'm I'm thinking through in my mind I suppose you could you know we we could craft a number of hypotheticals that you would so what what if there's someone I mean sure is that possible but it is just like there is no probably number possibilities you know criminally to have evidence planted on you or or whatever but I think all that's probably going to come down the circumstances so again it's one thing for you know at people of you know a certain age with no criminal record in there clearly you know ranchers for traveling cross country in the and you think well how likely is this but man could is it possible that could happen sure I suppose that is and you know in that scenario the this they would just they would play out I think that's you know. One thing couldn't happen is he seems very very unusual well I the reason I ask you that I personally know some cattle were two whole commercial cattle from Kentucky to West Texas feedlots but their story aired on ABC just recently about a a a truck that was carrying vehicles new vehicles if someone had planted a large amount of drugs in one of those vehicles and they followed that truck no one with the destination would be. And retrieve the drugs out. I'm just saying that could that happens a lot more than what we realize. But the the person who owns that truck could could possibly lose his truck. Well there again I think what sure it is it is it possible us I suppose it's possible for a number of things to happen I would think that when you think about somebody in a civil lawsuit and they would be kind of inter if you assume that first the the police are gonna say you're moving these drugs on purpose therefore we're we're taking the vehicle the right that you all right and then you get in that a prosecutor files and then it gets before a judge and then you're saying they would intervene in the lawsuit I would think they would have a pretty strong case of being an innocent owner if the situation set up as as and which I'm certain it was not imagine the reason was on ABC is because it is. Fairly unusual. One thing it never happens but it certainly not common we did we've wanted of state of Arkansas first start. A handling fourth during seizure for for cases I wouldn't I couldn't tell you the year I don't know that I'm talking land sure absolutely I had a statue here whether I had the the actual first time the law was passed in Arkansas I I could look but I have I mean we've I've been in state government over thirty years and we had asset forfeiture when I when I started so it's obviously prior to that to another been some amendments since then obviously but I know we've we've had at least that long state of Arkansas I'm sure I'm sure you say it's a good tool Mr McMahon amended it's been a great to and fours decentralizing you know people using vehicles thanks to. A. Do you know if so you don't know what it was before we pass these laws are put in the seizure forfeiture laws. No Sir I mean I can go back and do some research to see was there but like I said I'm I'm I know since I've been in state government we've had forfeiture laws on the books I don't I don't know what it was like before that at all okay March Mr chairman thank you. Mr by man Mister Smith I think Mr McGrath did a good job of pointing out that almost everyone supports civil forfeiture of when. For the. Of those things that people are getting from crime and things used in crime. The in two thousand thirteen I read a bill civil forfeiture. And. A. Prosecutors asked for meeting with me. We met in a legislative committee room. And Mr McMahon you were one of the folks present there was at least eight prosecutors not to exaggerate I think probably ten. and I was asked whether I supported law enforcement or not. And of course a think that's become pretty obvious the answer that question And told how important civil asset forfeiture was in I agree with that. But I was also told trust us. We don't need any legislation trust us will do the right thing. In the end miss with you talked today about checks and balances. And I was thinking you know I have friends that are judges that surprises people I have friends that are judges I have friends that are prosecutors I have lots of friends in law enforcement. And. But. People trust nothing but back when I was on the quorum court in the nineties seven zero with got a ticket for going sixteen of own goal gorge road. Of which is notorious for. The national park police I'm in no rush for the Senate. and she lived office sleepy valley road and one she didn't speak never had a ticket in our lifetime for two. How difficult it would have been to go from Ste zero to sixty two because he came to come to a stop to turn left onto. go for road work road and she was turning left on sleepy valley to get to sixteen before she turned I may have been difficult even for hot water like me to go to sixty and no reason to. And so of. She wanted to go to court and I took off work and was there all day waiting for her case to come up. And as believable as she was. and this credible and the evidence that it how hard it would have been to even made sixty. And then try to make a ninety degree turn on the sleepy valley. The judge didn't find her. guilty. guilty and then then fire. We know one. The law enforcement officers in there every week. She's in there once in a lifetime. They work together every week in humans or humans. So yes there are some checks and balances but the legislature is one of those checks and balances. It would be a crime for us to take innocent people's property. Right maybe not maybe not a criminal crime. But a moral crime. To take innocent people's property. And so if must see those for instance. No sounds no sounds like expensive proper than ninety sevens. But it must see dues or subtle somebody's property. And they get arrested for selling drugs. It looks like I got a long way to go. But they're not run my cedars. To sell drugs. And they're not the proceeds of drugs because there maseda is. Right. So and I say that because. You know in the case that brought all this to my attention again. Because we passed a law last session and I thought well maybe this fixes it. Is there's a guy sitting in jail when Garland County. Of for the last nineteen to twenty months had been a trial yet. Friend of mine who's been in an out of prison. And when he comes out of prison. Family and friends when it was supposed to turn over a new leaf supposed to do better and he happens to be a really good mechanic. And so you know we talk on one hand how hard it is for felons to get jobs and then on the the other hand you know so he's had must see those on his property sometimes for months at a time. And so this time when he got arrested we took everything. Everybody's property that was there. Whoever's name it might have been in. Whatever value it might have been and you know and I don't want to. The they'll take this case to pick on the local prosecutors who I respect a great deal I do sometimes think when I come across something is the tip of the iceberg. because I don't think they're the that there's anything here this not happening. Elsewhere. Of and the so. The a. You know the book will talk a little bit about that case of. And. It just because the others have talked about. Those things are close you know you're. Your. Superieur called whatever has your. Core and they get stopped and they got drugs in the car. Thank. But not sure thirty year old camping trailer sitting on their property. That not living in not selling drugs out of it. Them to them. Or another motor vehicle when in fact they have a motor vehicle. That was registered in their name that we did season nobody complained about. Because the guilty then. That's that's right. And so that concerns me. If if those facts turn out to be true does it concern you. Well Sir I've seen up prosecutor in that district additionally the the rules the ethical rules prohibit attorneys from talking about ongoing cases what I would say for any any ongoing cases sure that maybe I'm I'm old fashioned I I do trust judges to to make the right decision they are humans they are fallible I'll tell you I'm in a judge's offices every week it does not stop them from suppressing evidence in my cases when they feel is the right thing to do so that would be my position of saying certainly you know I want to make sure that we get things right but without knowing the specifics of the case I couldn't comment on it since it is on going into in front of the court so I would trust the the attorney for the defense and the prosecutor in the judge to resolve that according to the law so that's been my position on. But you would understand also one of the legislature might think we need to make changes. If that turned out to be the case well so what I would say is one I don't think you can now weather turns out to be the case until it is litigated but assuming it is litigated and and resolves then we talk about the property so yes Sir yes Sir that the property the conviction all that what what it with whatever is out standing there again I'm not familiar with it personally with the convict you know the again because that's one of the discussions we had two thousand thirteen was the separation of the conviction versus the property that's a separate issue. Of what we will talk about that here in just a little bit of but I think for for any normal case Jordan litigated it is still being litigated because. Of I said something about it and uh but normally at this point. Nothing changes the spouse of the property's gone. And we took it. So but again I'm not asking you to speak to. comment on that specific I said if it were true. I guess what I would say in response to that is I'm always hesitant of making of the legislatures my own personal opinion making policy in reaction to one things that you know I'm not I'm not contesting your version the facts but I don't know what they are in into things that are out that are kind of appear to be out liars when a judge has yet to ultimately rule on it so that that the what I'd say on okay. Any other questions from the committee. If you gentleman could of stay with us until we from this this agenda of we may have questions for you and you may have comments that. That you want to add up very much appreciate you being here today and and appreciate what you do thank you thank you. UP next of is supposed to be Patricia Tackett rose in hot springs she is on the way there was a miscommunication we may not get her in until the next agenda item if she gets here but we're gonna go to US investors Smith. and Sylvester I'm going to swear you in not picking on you. I will swear her into. But because you're only talking about specifics and not just policy. Of first of the state your name employer position. Your raise your right hand. You so much for affirm that the testimony about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you you may be seated. Your. Yes please Turner Michael. There we go a good afternoon members of committee thank you for giving me of a few moments to talk with you today are used to seeing a lot of me in my role as a small business advocate and today you'll get to see me in my role as an attorney and so we talked about civil vixens in absolute fiction civil forfeiture actions in theory I like to walk you through how this happens in real life for people whose property is taken and so in front of you you have several exhibits one is labeled Smith exhibit a I'd like to start there that is actually what's called an in rem complaint these are on C. three. And so this is what the government files when they decide they want to take your property I the government should have the same bird that we all have we have an action against someone the government should have to say what he wants to do and it should have to say specifically I plead facts that support their conclusions here in it's my opinion as an attorney the first of all when it comes to miss Patricia tacular let me briefly just tell you the story miss Patricia Tackett it has a son who is a serial drug user and over the course of his history using drugs he also allegedly has sold drugs and so at some point in two thousand nineteen miss Tackett had a recreational vehicle position on some land that our son was occupying and she had a in operable nineteen sixty nine four Bronco sitting on that property her son was caught cell allegedly selling drugs and arrested there was also two bolts on the premises at the time this young man is a mechanic this pretty town from what I understand and he was working on various pieces of property for other people and so the agents took the RV they took the in operable for Bronco they took to boats under the theory that they were either a used in his drug scheme or be the proceeds of the drug scheme it would've been very evident to them that these items were not the proceeds of the drug scheme because they were titled in the names of other people including his mother and so the argument that a broke down nineteen sixty nine Bronco one that hadn't run and I have decade as being used to run a drug scheme is frankly offensive to me especially when it's mice. State taking that valuable item of personal property from the a senior citizen they didn't have the means to fight secondly to say that these various boats we're part of a drug scheme is also laughable to me in my spare time I do represent criminal defendants just because I like going to court and fighting about things and I don't necessarily get to do that in my day job and I can tell you I've yet to encounter a time in which a drug transaction was made in the middle of the lake in a fishing boat and that's over seven years of practicing law and defending people who have done all sundry of stupid things yes deal that's what the prosecuting attorney in garland county alleges happened in this case and so if you look through exhibit a the complaint. They say number one we need to take these items of property this beautiful nineteen sixty nine four Bronco the done run a a Ford F. one fifty truck and aluminum will vote in a nineteen ninety four Maraj tender LLC boat the court has jurisdiction over this matter and then the number three it talks about Mr Richard Glenn Tackett that's my client's son his arrest now I will ask you to read this just because I've got limited time but I'll ask you to take my word for it paragraph three outlines what happened in no way paragraph three does it say the nineteen sixty nine Bronco we saw some Mr Tackett drop off drugs in that vehicle no where does it say I would because these bass boats we saw Mr Tackett in the middle of the lake or we have video of him we have a confidential informant and so these are just legal conclusions and so in any other circumstance if I were to sue you senator Elliott for some acted you allegedly committed against me and I just see it Senator Elliot was mean that would be thrown out it would be subject to dismissal because I've not played at sufficient acts to demonstrate what exactly did you do that was me now here. I will go to next to exhibit be and this is very important and so what happens is when my client got news of this lawsuit issues delivered item a which is the complaint issues delivered item B. item B. is the summons what a summon's does for those of us who are fortunate enough not to be lawyers because Hey lawyers most of us I have challenging ethics according to most people so for those who are not fortunate enough to be in this illicit clan the summonses of things it says Hey Senator Terry Rice you're being sued this is what you do about it and if you look at that first paragraph on exhibit be it says a lot also has been filed against you the relief demanded is stated in the attached complaint within thirty days after service sixty if you're in jail you must file with the Clerk of the court a written answer a written answer and so if you're lay person and you're dealing with this very intimidating process and you've got the Garland County prosecuting attorney and they're probably ten lawyers bring down your neck it's intimidating enough but what you do is you take the word of the paperwork the Clerk as told me what I have to do is file the written answer so if you look at exhibit C.. My client miss Tackett. Send a hand written answer within thirty days. In in it if you turned it pays to she says to the circuit Clerk from fortress attack I own the house it's three oh four skyline street these items in mind I would like to have the back nineteen sixty nine four Bronco my husband and I bought it in nineteen seventy four he died I have not driven it since I was just keeping it he died in two thousand and four the pool camper I have the bill of sale I bought it from razorback camper on six twenty seven thirteen the others listed the aluminum will bode is owned by ten ten you tack it the other boaters belongs to Paul Cutler the four truck it was not running right but it was the only one that was Richard tech it's and so she signed it is so you would think as a lay person that Hey I need to send an answer in thirty days I send a signed answer well unfortunately the law requires more than what the summons told ms Tackett the law requires a verified answer now Senator balances and is an attorney he and I may have a different opinion on what a verified answer means some judges would tell you verified answer means just what this tech it did it means she signed with the Arkansas Supreme Court ruled in a similar forfeiture case the verification when it comes to forfeiture means sworn to inside in front of a notary and so what happened here in this Garland County case the prosecuting attorney move what's called a default judgment which means you lose without even going to court because miss Tackett failed to file an answer because she did not include the verification. Now. What happens in a case like this really depends on the judge and I can tell you I practice in about thirty five counties in Arkansas and there a lot of judges who I have a ton of respect for that would look at this file and they say you know what this lady got it wrong I see made a technical error but I'm a giver hearing any lease letter come down here and have our day in court saves you have to say there other judges who you know may not even look at the file they just take the prosecutors were for that Hey I do not work with them every day I see the file answer fine let's move on I'm not saying that's this just did I think this judge he'll miss Tackett to the letter of the law that you pass this is it has to be verified and therefore they granted the relief that the prosecution asked for and so my purpose today is to let you know a civil forfeiture makes sense we need civil forfeiture I think it's a legit tool for prosecutors to use to stop these illicit enterprises of various natures however the statute this system it needs to be fixed because innocent people like miss Tackett are getting caught up in it they lose their hard earned a property they cannot afford to lose especially in the midst of a global pandemic in terrible recession all because there's a word added in that statue did that need to be there and and it does need some amending it so if I could just have two more minutes exhibit D. is the actual statute itself. If you turn the page three in exhibit exhibit D.. Are right there at the top under B. B. talks about the innocent owner and the defense that you heard the previous speakers talk about now I'm read this last line T. in basically the whole concept the is you're innocent if you can come to court and demonstrate that by a preponderance of the evidence that it did these acts were committed without your knowledge or can consent and I I plan to go through this and hopefully somebody will file appeal everywhere C. as knowledge or consent it needs to say knowledge and consent because let me give you an example let's say that a spouse my wife is running a drug cartel and I know you don't necessarily want to take this is a potential fact Senator Stubblefield but it's possible my wife is run a drug cartel she's a dangerous lady and she says sly because that's what she calls me I will take your kia and I will drop these this dope off so I've got knowledge and I say baby please don't do that and she takes or gold tipped thirty eight special inspection of the hit with it is this sit sit down what you gonna do about you know it the first time she hit me with that thing and so I I do exactly what you see is what under the statute the way it's written now once she's pulled over arrested because I had knowledge of what she was doing my private property is subject to forfeiture so it shouldn't just be knowledge it should be knowledge and consent because some of these people these families are being victimized by these criminals are now if you turn the page seven. This is where miss tech it got caught up. Page seven I've highlighted for you number four okay so number four this is what would you need to do if you the innocent owner and your stuff is been taken by your government within the time set forth in Arkansas rules of civil procedure the owner interested holder of the seas property so far with the circuit Clerk a verified which means signed and notarized although didn't tell you that here in the statute answer to the complaint that shall include a statement describing the seas property and the owners or owners or interest holders interest in seize property with supporting documents to establish that that that interest and then be a certification by the owner interest holders stating that he or she is read the verified answer and that is not filed with any improper purpose and see a statement setting forth any defense to forfeiture and TV address it was the owner I can't will accept mail and so what I'm going to ask you to do next session is first of all get rid of verified because they should just have to file an answer because again these are tax paying Arkansas citizens and their government is taking their property and so the government should not be allowed to play a bait and switch game with a single summons that says just answer when that's not enough and then with regard to eighty eight should end after seize property a statement describing the seas property and the owner or interest holders interest in the seas property period because I will tell you lawyers have a reputation for being slick this list is because some of us look is look there's some of us look is looks there's a prosecutor's and if you don't meet the letter of this requirement you gonna run to the same thing miss Tackett you file an answer but you didn't give me a copy of the title since the bill so you lose or you found the answer but you didn't certify of from the interest so. That you read every part of my complaint it is ridiculous it's ridiculous this whole deal started in England in the sixteen hundreds with piracy pirates would have these ships full of gold or other contraband in the England would catch the ship but they would have any idea where it came from and so they basically came up with this thing under the law where they may discuss it with this if the ship is the defendant and we're going to sue the ship so we can take it and that makes sense when the criminal pirate who's losing the ship is the one who takes the loss but in circumstances like bad of poor miss Tackett the government has become the pirate and this poor innocent woman is potentially lost her property a vehicle most importantly she connects to her late husband because they wrote it together solely because she didn't know that you had sent a verified answer and that my friends is a shame is a grievous wrong that I hope you will ensure no one else suffers from in the future. That's my presentations Jim. Questions Central. Thank you Mister chair Mister Smith up earlier when I asked the question I think that. Prosecutors maybe are going back to Mr McGrath's testimony of the bird and then on the government and I was asking it should that be changed and anyway is it strong enough or whatever the case may be so when you so it at this your testimony kind of gets the heart of not an accusation from me but just wondering based on what Mr McGrath said is that are you know that some states have the burden of proof on the prosecutor and there's a burden of proof but that's by degrees so it's your testimony kind of response to that in that we might have the burden of proof but it is not balanced or there's too much onus I guess on the permit on the person who is having to prove something so and I so appreciate your question in the spirit of it and so what what I took that presented to say is that what in in this is what happens Senator Elliot I I'm the prosecutor I take your car because your friend was driving and and had drugs in and so additionally the burden of proof is on me as the government to say that this vehicle was used in a drug transaction. That once I do that the burden shifts and now it's on you to demonstrate that you are an innocent owner who didn't have knowledge in or consent of whoever it was using your vehicle for drugs it's a what the presenter said is sometimes that's nearly impossible it's like proving a negative and proving a negative basically is you holding up this EP in and saying this is an Indian and now the onus is on me to prove it is and I can tell you you guys don't know much about me as a lawyer but I am pretty good at what I do and I've actually litigated cases like this all the way up to the United States Supreme Court unfortunately a lost cause forfeiture laws are just terrible in this country and believe it or not even as someone that represents defendants from time to time I would say our forfeiture laws are not terrible I believe that this whole bifurcated process where you have a criminal case and then you have civil forfeiture I believe it can work for everyone's benefit including the the alleged criminals what I would say though is that there should be less of a burden on the innocent person when they're trying to get their property back in so I'm trying to think of a better artful way to describe it but it should be a preponderance of the evidence light if you will basically if they have a story and it makes any sense and they can demonstrate that is their stuff then it ought to be on the government to poke holes in that story it should be on the person to prove the negative so in other words that the prosecutor did write their own criteria they've they're using the criteria that the legislatures put in place I as soon with input from other folks and so when we talk about you know the the prosecutor's burden be and more or less whatever it should be it's up this is the thing that we're talking about for I'm not expecting prosecutors to come here and say this is the way we'd like to be I know that kind of thing. But the bottom line is some where we put this in place since legislator or is and I can't just sit here and point the prosecutors I need to make sure legislators are doing what they're doing is you wrote so that doesn't confess where it came from because it it almost came across to me as a non attorney almost like they just decided that this is this is that what we're going to require but it's and it's it's it's in it's in the state agency here the statute and and I just wanna say I mean I I appreciate that the examples that were given here because that really helps clarify for me what my responsibility is now as as as a legislator thank you so much and may I add just as one point again prosecutors are people and and they are for the most part very good people in date they have a very challenging job but I want to tell you something I disagree with the been county prosecutor about one important fact enough checks and balances a prosecuting attorney is the most powerful person in Arkansas government and I don't care what anyone says otherwise because they can decide who gets charged with they get charged with even though sometimes it's excessive in when it comes to this concept they get this decide whether not they attempt to forfeit your property in in in this case the prosecutor saw that my client found an answer and he or she could have said you know what does this have a hearing let's let her come up and have their day in court they elected to ask for default judgment and so I I think the Supreme Court recently had a ruling in which they are really just as a prosecutor for some horrific acts and they said it's we want to remind you today that as a prosecutor your job is to pursue justice that's it and this is not just to take somebody's property because their answer well timely was not notarized especially when they have a legitimate rationale in defense to the underlying complaint. Well I've I've I've for a long time yeah I don't mean this in a negative way whatsoever I agree but I think a prosecutor has the most powerful people in this whole line of the criminal justice system which is one of the reasons I've always tried to this I thought data for a long time I just can't get because I don't know how to even think about certain situations when you can't get the data. I thank you Mr chair. Senator Stubblefield. Thank you Mr chairman I apologize Sylvester five forgot because I've been on Judiciary while myself when was that were verified and it. I have to look at the state. Senator but. You know I we all have to get back to you with an answer on that better because the history and tell you when that happened but I don't have in front of me that's a that's K. you get back what was the primary argument it adding that that were verified well I don't know what it would have been in this case but I can tell you because there are other instances in my practice law we encounter that for example If I have a client for that let's say you and you've got this grand baby and the grand baby is in the care of their their father who is it taking care of it the jobs being to be abused and we want to go to the court for what's called ex parte relief that's emergency relief with the child's father that even though we're doing you have to sign a verified complaint you have to swear an oath that what you're saying is true and traditionally Arkansas law that need for verification is place upon that the plaintiff the person is trying to instigate something not necessarily the person is making an answer might my guess would be that is so that we don't waste the court's time to make sure these people know that this is being done on the penalty of perjury that their swearing that these things are true that would be my guess is the white was there but again you know I think we have to remember whose property we're taking it is the taxpayer's property if the taxpayer was we're trying to get some relief from the government that I think would be appropriate to make them make a verification to swear on oath before they get their day in court but with the government is come and take in the person's taxpayer's property to me that's just a very inappropriate burn and I believe in Arkansas because the way our constitution is written in the statement I can't remember which article article twelve the property rights in Arkansas shall be placed above all others I don't believe that's constitutional Mr dismissed tack and have an attorney at the time she wrote this letter no Sir she was pro se she cannot afford an attorney I I am now her attorney and I'm doing it pro bono So the vast majority of people who were in this type of situation would not have an attorney to advise them that they had to have that letter verified that's right they were simply write a letter explaining what. Who bombed the property belong to sign it and send it on that's right and and here's the thing Senator and I I don't mean to belabor the the committee's time but the Supreme Court has healed that the responsibility is on the probe prole say or individually represented person to go search out this act in fine with the requirements are but I but we're that gets complicated on this issue is if you throw a stone F. five attorneys and let it hit one of us in the head and say what is verified mean to you one of us is going to say it means signed and then you throw second stones in that same group five attorneys here another that other discuss a notarized in so that's the whole danger about this issue about verified under the law it could mean two different things but unfortunately here after detailed analysis the Arkansas Supreme Court is sealed it means now rise and sworn to. Thank you Mr. Sylvester you know the thing that. A fun bothersome. We'll find more than one thing bother some but. You know there's the. Yeah I think we saw seventy seven percent don't do anything. They don't answer. Meijin a number go to an attorney find out what is going to cost. And know what properties worth in. The site but I will say what they say but. The. But the idea that this nineteen sixty nine Ford Bronco. You know at what point do we have the responsibility the state have the responsibility to say. This belongs to this other party. There is no probable calls. I just need to go back. Why does someone even have to answer I mean I'm not getting into the close cases. I'm talking about what appears to me to be an easy case. Which makes it look to me like. It so happened a procedure of what we do. The so let me throw another one action. doesn't pay to be. Close to me because I'm. Two transparent. But ill drugs affects more and more families. And so you know people go over and so I would have never done that level one. The nephew on drugs. Of and when the things go really blow up in the family of the matter how mad they may be at me they call me. And in a tower loan this core. And by the way he's been thirteen challenged in prison ministries of a minister now and I'm thankful that he's one of those I got turned around. Of but. Blown this car. Can't get it back. Turns out drug dealer. So what do I do one responsible citizen. Call the police. What you. I call the police and of a all the attorneys and prosecutors in here and just about everyone else will know what the police told me. It's a simple matter. There's nothing we can do. And I understood that. Your here you have my number. I'm Levon. Op twenty three Arkansas that was scared anymore anything but I left and you know one in the morning he calls me. This is Baltic fifteen under. Not to my brother in law. For the best you can do. And so I go back in any fifteen hundred dollars. To get. Property back. But. Here's the interesting question. Not. Sister brother Walden do anything wrong under anything wrong extended family didn't do anything wrong twenty five year old it's addicted to drugs. Did actually did just loaning the car you know he said you know not that he probably intended to keep the car because he probably owed him money for drugs but. but he didn't trade in the car for drugs. And but if he had been arrested. The drug dealer with the car. I have been worse off it appears. Dennis is trying to negotiate with the drug dealer. You know this Mr what I would say is unfortunately you're probably right Uh because at least the drug dealer would be responsive and in time to communicate with you and tell you what the circumstance was in where the prosecutor tourney at at sometimes we have jobs myself in some of them on the phone but I will say this because I don't mean to run them over the bus here at because they're overwhelmed they have a of extremely high caseload and sub they are frankly not. Sufficiently compensated on average for the work that they do and so I I will give them that but what I would say is you you were certainly able to get much more timely relief from the drug dealer then you would have been on the criminal justice system pursuant to the Arkansas forfeiture scheme now there's one thing that I I also want to add because I've seen this in other areas of my practice and there there are negligent apples I think among the prosecuting attorneys I'm not saying any of them ill intentions I will say some of these drug task force people sometimes you see in nineteen sixty nine Bronco you think we take that I can ride around it you know but and and sometimes you wonder about some of the motives of some of those folks not all because by far they're good people who put themselves at risk to keep us safe but I will tell you about another very interesting experience that one of my clients had in south Arkansas will someone that was potentially a client guy gets arrested at his brother's house had been selling drugs not out of the house but had been selling drugs so he gets arrested at the drug task force agents search the house they see a gun safe will what's in here and the guy was on a felon on parole he was supposed to be around guns I he was staying at the home and so that probably was an issue for him but the guns had nothing to do with this man they just real holding the gun safe in in it are these hundred old under your guns belong to grandpa they seize the. And they for for them the fourth of. I don't know how you make a nexus between a hundred euro going to belong to grandpa and drugs but they did and the judge signed off on and so. There are some serious issues that we need to address to make sure that these good people who are prosecutors I do have some more significant limitations to what they can and cannot do and I I will I volunteered to do anything I can to work with them to and work with this committee to help improve this this this system because it does need improvement. I think you said it very well of they are of. The vast majority are wonderful people in a very difficult job you know I have great people work for me. And when I have the knowing that when I have the same problem over and over and over again I finally wake up and say I have great people there's a problem with there's a problem there procedures is a problem with the rules it's it's my fault that this is happening not their fault it's going to be fixed and so it comes back to the legislature it's not that there's a problem with the people that are out there is that the rules need to be fixed or at least it appears to some of us that they need to be fixed. The Any other questions for. So Mister Mister Smith. I thought that of mistake it might be here because that was who was on the phone and she was going to call in which he got here and was involved in L. someone else so I don't. Well it Mr I do have one final statement I would like to make perform excuse of this my first time I've been down here twenty years is my first time testifying under oath as I just wanna say I have no recollection of those events senator. I always want to say that. Now you may get charged with perjury selection. Events. Mistaken does not walk in in the next few seconds if she comes in we'll bring her up but we're gonna go to D. discuss discussion impact covert nineteen Arkansas courts and I don't know. The firm would come wanted timers on the come together but of gotten first on the list Christian Clark director legal services division AOC. What. Okay Mister I guess parking will go and get started. In the interest of time. Of. And I don't know if Jennifer kron director doodle justice division AOC also wants to come at the same time she's coming. Thank you all for being here today. Thank you senator Clark for having us. Fiacre the if the tell us a little bit about what's going on with code in the courts and how they're being affected in. Before moving along at the same speed for before slow down a great deal of it varies across the state and different courts and you've got floor thank you first I'd like to thank you for inviting AOC to the table to discuss the impact of code in nineteen on the Arkansas courts I would also like to apologize again I'm Marty Solomon's behalf he wanted to be here today personally to talk about this with you but was in another meeting he wants to make sure that each of you know that you can call him or email him at any time he shared the twenty twenty. Annual report to the community with each of you and it has a lot of information about what we're doing in response to coated in it as well the first thing I'd like to say that is the supreme court's been very clear in the procuring orders that they have issued providing guidance to all of our courts into our attorneys that the courts are to remain open they are tasked with continuing to carry out the core constitutional responsibilities and the functions but they also have to make sure that they are ensuring that our citizens still have access to the court so right now we have this delicate balance between. Look health and also ensuring access to the courts continues. The court is basically adapted to a very evolving situation that most reports are thinking outside the box as far as how they are ensuring that court operations continue as you all are probably aware zoom has been implemented in offered to all the courts to insure that proceedings can continue even in situations where they can't continue in person. Primarily video conferencing has been the primary method of holding court right now we have Z. civil jury trials can be conducted via same By a whole or in part our criminal jury trials currently have been suspended until January the fifteenth Part of that can be Board are at least can be conducted by video conference by agreement in the last period of July until November there were actually fifty jury trials that were held and that was during the time period where the court had lifted the suspension and had given each of the areas discretion to determine what was best for their area and how they can best to hold up proceedings of those fifty jury trials forty four were criminal jury trials and six or civil jury trials. Other things that the judiciary is done to respond to code that include we've got a coded. Nineteen informational page on our website that is a clearinghouse for courts to share changes in operation due to code with the public we have also provided resources for judges and for clerks and court personnel there there is a code nineteen binge card that's been prepared for judges to use in the event that there's an exposure there it also provides links to the Arkansas department of health signage that they required to have posted outside court rooms it also has a screening tools there any both English and Spanish their self sample safety plans there are for the court to or trying to move their proceedings to a larger area so that they can better social distance it also. As other public health. Resources there additionally be on the same we've had. A push to roll out are E. filing two more of our circuits right now a sixty four percent of the circuit courts are E. filing in some capacity that addresses the majority of the state's case load although it's not all of the state's case load it makes us more efficient and that's crucial for attorneys to continue to have the ability to file documents when we have some court houses that are closing and you're not able to walk in and the way that you might normally have done. It also ensures that litigants have access to their documents in a timely and a complete and accurate manner and we've also transition to being able to accept payments online so in the situation that one of our speakers referred to earlier about the speeding ticket most of those payments now can be made online if somebody has that indeed rather than having to actually physically appear in court to do that one of the other things that the card is a director Sullivan has established basically a supply chain and distribution trying for BP for our courts there have been over seven hundred thousand disposable mask and also reasonable cloth mask that have been obtained for the courts and distributed there have been two hundred and seventy two medical grade the monitors that have been obtained and distributed so that they can properly screen. People who are coming into the court room there's been over fifteen thousand bottles of hand sanitizer that have been obtained and distributed and over a million pairs of latex gloves our security and emergency preparedness committee assisted with that and also they have worked to procure some grant funding to pay for that. we are aware that there's going to be a backlog of cases once it is safe to resume in person proceedings again and currently the Supreme Court has a task force that is looking at how to best resume court operations and the Chief Justice is also put together a civil justice reform committee to talk about solutions The makeup of those committees includes judges it includes members who are part that the trial lawyers association the Arkansas Bar Association senator bond is on one of those committees Speaker Shepherd is on one of those committees as well and they are beginning to have those conversations about how to how best we go forward from here one of the other complicating factors that we've had is as you all are probably aware many of the facilities where courts are located are actually owned and controlled by either the city or a county so we have had situations where decisions have been made by either city officials or county officials to close the court houses and what we have done is encourage the judges locally there to communicate and cooperate and coordinate as best possible with those officials to get the courthouse is back open or to encourage them to explore using an alternate venue if there are any questions about that I'm happy to take those at this time. Senator Stubblefield. Thank. Christine I'm correct splicing little unusual question I've always been curious about spring court how they operate specially of the daily routines. Are they required to be there to certain time in a day or two they clock in what do they do during the days are not in session just give me a brief summary of their daily routines I want to required today well I don't have access to that information I'm not actually a Supreme Court employee I can certainly ask director Sullivan for that but I will tell you that while they are not in the Justice Building at times they are almost always available I know I have routinely take calls from justices that are be after hours when they're working on a particular issue so I would hate to leave anyone with the assumption that when they're not in the building that they are actually working but we would I don't have the information they don't necessarily have to clock in every day. No Sir they they don't they're elected official much like you are and so that that process is in place the best of my knowledge Does it thank you you're welcome. Senator Elliot. Thank you and I'm just curious about The folks who chose to hold the jury trials virtually do you do you have any information on which parts of the state chose to do that If the client had private attorney the public defender or anything like that that would establish any kind of patterns of geography and access to I guess the council. So for criminal proceedings those can't occur virtually the board our process of jury selection can occur virtually if the parties agree to it so although other states have done some jury trials virtually I think that Texas and Florida have done some Arkansas is certainly not gonna be at the front of the of the line there the data that I spoke of earlier with regard to jury trials that was actually in person jury trials during the time period in July to November that was prior to the court entering the recent suspension of those but I do have the data as far as where those are occurring geographically okay well I I just misunderstood what you said sorry about that no it's not your fault I was trying to listen and listen well enough I guess because I thought there were some that were happening virtually and some that were not so there are many types of hearings that are happening March fortunately I mean there's thousands of hearings that are occurring the is the name and I do have some data on that if you're interested as well that we actually talk about the jet the civil jury trial you know that that's obviously much more challenging to to do that in that manner yeah is is that happening pretty much all over the state though was that spotty the the hearings that hearings as far as where is in hearings are occurring there Kering everywhere and we're seeing those from you know district courts where you're gonna typically see our traffic court in your misdemeanor offenses and your civil and small claims matters that can occur virtually Thursday and we're also seeing that for our domestic relations docket the probate dockets and some of the civil docket a lot of the civil docket is challenging to move at this time so you do see those at all levels even our court of appeals in the Supreme Court have held oral arguments during the last term the is thing and to the extent that there is a backup is. It causing you any problems with overcrowding are crowding issue at all in our jails in our jail facilities so it's possible that it it is however one of the things the Supreme Court has done is issued a per curiam to all of the judges who have a criminal docket they have been ordered to specifically review their dockets for criminal cases that have been outstanding for more than twelve months and if that defendant either was not originally granted bail or bond or was granted bond that has not been able to make that bond they've been asked to review those and if the situation warrants to reconsider that reconsider our reconsider that even if they are not able to make the absolutely okay yes all right thank you thanks to secure. Senator Ross thank you. One thing off still struggle with trying to figure out is For all the money. come from there's the. Some legislation a. The thought that I had down to my tummy different little but the number of people different parts get get money out of certain things is there anything because of this call with back up. that is has caused Monetary changes big time you mean all the salaries and all I guess or budgeted but is there any court moneys and fees and fines that would normally be company and that is not it's causing problems. Yes Sir there are some funds that have been affected by that when we talk about the administration of justice fund that is one that will be significantly impacted and that is there's two different types of money that goes through the administration of justice fund the first part is basically court cost and filing fees those flow through the administration of justice fund and then are filtered out to the various entities and agencies to receive those monthly allotments for that the second part of money that flows through the Administration of Justice Fund is for the special fines and fees that the legislature has assess so for example the. There's a miscellaneous fund fee form that DNA puts together and that the courts fill out a report on monthly where they have to account for each of those individual fees and I believe that that list is. Got over twenty very specific funds where DF a nice a a a O. J. fund acts as a clearing house so yes those have all been significantly affected and. You know if you wanted more specific details about that and just the severity of that we would be more than happy to visit with the F. an aide to obtain those when it was brought to my attention lately and and I don't know it Mr Parrish is here on the public defender's is up be able to maybe ask question on but are there some entities local entities that uses counties are municipal better required to pay. may be always a page from portions is because this fund is drain down lower. are we sticking cost back home more calls than normal back on our local entities you have any data on that I don't have any data on that but I will say that the way that the court cost in filing fees has worked historically since uniformed filing fees were implemented by the legislature in ninety five is each court has a retain share that with calculated based on the amount that was collected pre uniform filing fees and court costs and that money is they always get to retain at least that share of their money and if they don't collect court cost in filing fees above that dollar amount then they don't remit anything to the state and so in that sense. There hasn't been an additional push back on the on from the state asking for more more more because that's already been defined by law and there hasn't been anything to to change that. Okay that's helpful thank you thank you Mr. With the of. Back up do we have any Issues well with speedy trial. So the procuring orders that the court is has issued specifically address the speedy trial issues you know there are there's very good reasons public health reasons why these can't commit into place at the time worst were trials have been suspended that would be excluded from that speedy trial time period there but we won't know until some of this is litigated and we also won't know until we actually hear back into more normal court operation period hell some of that's going to shake out so if I heard you correctly. God for bid I'm innocent although I am innocent of proven guilty yes Sir god for bid I'm innocent and I don't. Make bail. All the time. Suspended because of the pandemic don't count and I just sit there it's not all of the time that is suspended during the pandemic so from the time we got Where there was no suspension Yes Thank you means something in the state puts that out so. We're often in the top five. And yet as I You know a balancing act. That the of that we need to be sure that we that we get rot of. The end you said across the state you said you know Miller but have lost across Washington and Yeah the developing situation for sure or all the the courts that are clicking We've had to move here yes and larger of larger towns and cities the sometimes have meeting rooms convention centers that are being used and a small towns often have other things might be churches on. It's my understanding that some lease jury selection and possibly some trials of a occurred in cricket county in some of their multi use facilities that the charges have available I think that in Jefferson County that they use one of the convention centers as well. The court rooms that have adequate space to social distance they've installed plexiglas barriers there which are very similar to what you will have in this room. Thank you Sir. Any other questions. Hearing none thank you all for being here. English you have something to add. I know that good afternoon senators I'm Kristin did an excellent job covering the courts in general and as the juvenile division director for the administrative office of the courts I'm here just to answer any specific questions that you may have about the juvenile courts. Miss crown if you could stay around of when we get to. To director Martin and of any parent council director Brian Welch we might have some questions then we may not but if you don't mind sticking around we might have some questions at that point sure happy to thank you. Of. I am going to go back to see and ask of. Patricia Tackett to come up. She just drove here from hot springs. miscommunication. On my part. The Bill come up here. Right. There. Remain standing. Also if you turn Markham for. I need to remain standing reckons were you in. Right now. Tell us your name employer and position. Petition packet. Of I'm unemployed because on seventy eight retired. and what else did you want to visitation but you're retired so let's raise your right hand. Do you so much for firm that the testimony about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do you may see the. Hello. He just told us you were seventy eight. and of your will. Of I think that Sylvester told earlier but Jean passed when two thousand four yes I think that was all affidavit that you of Senen. to the courts. The Tell us a little bit just briefly about your experience with the the civil asset forfeiture of when your son Richey was arrested. After he was arrested. Well I got the. A word from my neighbor that something was going on at that the houses just two houses between it in my other house were reckless stay in. And I went out there And decor seven let me in they were check in the house and Hedrick outside at the one of the patrol cars. And I ask him what was going on. And nine. they tell me it was a raid they'd heard that there was some drug activity going on there. And so there was nothing for me to do at that moment but go back home like I said just two houses between and I was on the porch. And nine. along can a truck pulling my camper. And it benefit rakes he had been working on it I'd had a leak into the far end and of he had to tear the whole and out and replace it and he had done that. So that it was my house that they're it when his house just let him stay there I was my house my property my camper and as it come over the railroad track there where I live in a I hollered in Kenya went on out to the street alley it pretty close to the street and I said where you going with my camper. And I said what are you do and he said I'm working. In a civil war you going my camper that's my camper this not Rick's camper. And Hey some I have orders to take it so he just drove on all and as I was standing there here comes another one With the the little sixty nine Bronco that my husband and I had bought had it for years and nine. It had just been satin for a long time and mass Sunday had died just a couple of Months before this and I had a been going to give it to him and so he just never did come get it so it's still in never changed hands titles or anything that. I'll let Rick take it up to his house he's pretty good mechanic and he was working on it and and trying to get it where it would run again it's it's an antique and it's a sentimental value that we've had since nineteen seventy four it was a sixty nine model and headed to children growing up in so then along came it with another vehicle. So I got my car went back up there and ask them why are you taking months to you know this is this is not rex that this is my last that and they said well it's involved in the drug Some kind of bang and and we're just taking it. So from that you know they took all the other Thanks it was listed there and. I tried to contact the task force that to they tell me had taken it and I just never could find a member could done actually Tellem. that that was master that that was not Rick step. Then later on I got something in the mail I guess I misunderstood. I thought it was paperwork to prove that the things were mine. And so I even I filled out the best I could and I wrote a letter and explain that the Before we bought the vehicles in your on the camper and how long and Hatem and that they were mine and I had to the titles and my husband had built the boat. We had the He wanted one a little bit longer than that they make standards so we went to the company and ordered the boat entity in that everything in an M. sale well they didn't fix it just like he had wanted it And we had it like I said for several years and my son in his wine appointed the camper on it wanted the boat and so I just let her sign a. I'll you're a sales A bill of sale saying that she owed me the money that I went ahead and let her have the boat. and she was supposed to have climbed the boat. So I don't know what happened in that case that I just know that all the time I was expecting to get mass step bank in and visit Rick and he'd say well they can't take our stuff to like go to court. And he just kept telling me that so that's all I had to go on and kill I finally. Got his lawyer which is a court appointed lawyer and I'm asking your acid times gone on long enough where is my of vehicles and of why haven't I received anything. And he said well that paperwork you got in field out you just relinquish you just you know its total make it habit and I said bill You know I didn't know I suppose to have a. Court interpret that. I thought it was just getting you know telling them that was my step in that I one was going to get it back. So that was the last I've heard other than he said well it's long gone it's sold it's gone. And course that it set me but they didn't have any right to take mass to. I just didn't you know couldn't understand it that they would Just take mine without any reasoning what my son did You know he didn't by the camper and he didn't by the Bronco and he didn't by the boat. He had nothing none other than it was on my property up there. And the house is still in my name always has been. And my son I just let him live there so I didn't understand why they should have a right to take my things. Senator Ross. Thank you Mr Tackett for being here today I heard a little about the case but it's always good. here from the person that it happened to a. Did the. Sixty nine Bronco and we have a copy of your statement that you had. I thought would be sufficient to to respond to a forties did the sixty nine Bronco have a title to it yes I didn't I didn't get my hands on it to bring it today but it was titled in this title to my husband James okay so let me that basically you had a good title to it yes and nobody ever asked for title now so they would have had to get at the. Apple get the term of the. Title claiming if you had a loss title or send somebody would have that do that in and and when I saw that sixty nine Brock I I kinda liked what used to. Kerr options that they have that they've got to fix that part of the hat and I believe I remember seeing it these over Broncos right now real popular may not be two years from now right now the real popular picks them up very very much so I had called my I'm not trying to make you sicker than what you are but it it had some value to it. Even though it was run in need working and and you know it takes a lot of money to victims and I believe I see in this that the the camper It said you had a bill of sale I don't did it have a title also had it Bills Sam okay did it blues camper have a title like any member for this long so I think so at one okay but you that you have legal documents to yes okay that's all right this time Mr. Senator Stubblefield. Thank you Mr thank you restricted prevented I. I'm not a you know I'm not a judge or. Lawyer prosecutor but I have lived long enough on the service. To discern whether somebody's telling the truth and on and I know you're telling the truth. And I just want you to know when I hear your case it makes me wonder how many other cases just like this one. Has taken place over the state in the last ten twenty thirty years or people innocent people of loss of property. Had it taken from man so never had an opportunity to to to retrieve it. And I just want you to know that is a member of this Judiciary Committee. That I will do everything within my power this next session to make sure this does not happen again. I don't I cannot speak for the other members of this committee. But I can I can promise you. I will do everything I can do to make sure this does not happen again in the state of Arkansas. Thank you Mr chairman thank. Other questions. Senator Elliot. I have a question but I'm I'm I know it takes effort and time to be here today and especially this time of day and a wonderful drive back to hot springs so I just wanna thank you for you for being here and for coming and telling your story and kind of like Senator Rice I come from the era when the Broncos skiing and that is safe. You can't take the Bronco. This can happen but I just want you know I appreciate your taking the time to come and be a part of this hearing because we are always better when anybody from the general public both calm and and be a part of a what we call our democratic processes thank you. I wanted Pat to come today. You. Because I want to put a face on this. When I first started on this in two thousand thirteen. It wasn't personal. Pedophile bill like to let you down personally. Seventy eight year old widow. Do you have a criminal record no. Ruben Reston NO. Well I did have When my children were real small. we had a read house. And Rick my youngest one a he was just a toddler and. The bad was close to the window and he had rolled over and bumped the window which it was the old house and hello when the pains and the windows cracked. And I had an eight month landlord just lived next door and as she was just real real finicky she would come in my house when I was working and should even. Clean up provide didn't make the bad or something she make the bed and course and feel like you have the right to come into my house but the. And when she found the window broke and the wind had blown a couple of. Of. Offer the rule shingles and as she took me to court and said you know you're you ruin my house you've broken a window and torn shingles off of the roof and sub I guess she did have me arrested a I went to the. Service office please station and I had to go to court over course of the court then there's laughed and thought it out. A kiss added in the do any damage to her house it was just the landlady that this didn't have any compassion you know she was foreigner. But that's on time at eight been arrested center has grown. And you know I will the members is committed to know and anyone who may I say this later on. Are those in the audience and no. I'm going to church with Pat ten to belt sep nineteen seventy two. Three times a week. I was been twelve Ricky would been nine. And I know that the system so users Ricky's mom. But I washed her. Because of the lost all that recused looked. And others. Been around some pretty hard and people. And the only person a lot of people's lives. They cared about. It was a good influence. Not. Hello Senator or her whole life. Dedicated to helping people. This person I know no so many people call me and I say you know I don't know you for a long no you're lying to me. There's and it's her property. Sitting on her property. I think all of us need to take another look. And how we handle this. And let me say. We've got to fund. The drug task force they are crucial. Of but if we it if it's. Ever through ten thirty taken innocent people's property then we got to find another way. It's it's not either or. So. Pat do you have anything that you'd like to add. Well I'd like to say that A you know I hadn't let Ricky stay in that house it was just a house I had bought for a my granddaughter that that didn't work out for her to live there so I had let Ricky stayed there and he was a big help to me. You're not like you said I lost my husband back there and it's just kind of hard to make it without any help and he was a very good help to me. He was right there close and I was aware that he had drawn done drugs but and I would go up there pretty often and keep a check on the house and check on him and when I'd go everything was normal so I wasn't aware that of all this that was going on But anyway like I said I didn't realize as enabling like I was. But he was a very good helped me he was always there and I needed something moved or needed help there and he was right there to help me I really missing. Pat sorry for my miscommunication but thank you for jumping in your vehicle and driving over here today and testifying. I want to be here okay. You for your dismissed you can. Next room go back to the and we're gonna bring up both the Mr Martin director Division of Children and Family Services and Brian Welch executive director Commission for parent council. Senator Clark if it's okay I'd like to bring an MOT staff Mike Molly the council please. If you think you need to act and everything and the legal counsel but my legal counsel tells me I need them. You know how I feel about that as long as she doesn't get away she's a support. Rector you're next on the agenda so we'll start with you. Okay Amish's myself sh please for the record I'm Mr Martin the director of children and family services. I'm in the embo I am the deputy counsel for the office of chief counsel and as the director Martin said the DCFS is legal counsel but I also supervise the attorneys who represent DCFS all across the state. I'm Brian wells executive director of the Commission for parent council. Start with you Dr Martin. Well Senator Clark I think I think I was here at your question and planing to take questions from you I related to visitation and you were under some research and right then of course we were already going to have the courts come in and tell us about. The help co would have affected them and affected the citizens of Arkansas that are involved in the courts and then I was contacted from by foster parents. That we're concerned who had been involved in the input visitation. Of bison that had went on again and you've covered back in and everyone else wasn't there but in. Children and youth of not about March through June you know what we contact each. Clean the slate after March through June all of us did whatever the hell anticipating what might be going on of we're told but since then of and like I said it was not the mother of the child who lost a child that contacted me it was the foster parent who contacted me that was very concerned help. You know how you could visit with the child how you could bond with the child. and that they had done the best they could do of and of course it. You know I certainly had the same question and then there was an indication that it was widespread and so I had asked you to look into that right Senator Clark inside just to set the stage we did look into that the easiest way for me to know what the courts are doing across the state is really partner with my legal counsel in the in that and we have attorneys who represent us and there's around fifty of them I'm sure she can give you the exact number there's not a way for me to pull out of my case management system. The specific order for visitation said the best way is to do a survey of our legal counsel and asked them what the judges are ordering related to visitation and before I turn it over to Anna to tell you what she founded like to just say to the rest of the committee and I you and I talked Senator Clark but we do encourage in person visits throughout the pandemic and we encourage them even in phase one but then as we moved into phase two we set the expectation is in person visits but there are some exceptions when in person visits it's not safe for those to happen system examples of that would be if the child is positive and we would not have for that week in person visit or maybe the parent is positive for that week and virtual visit even if it's an infant even if it's an antenna virtual visit what happened maybe the DHS office is closed because staffer positive and now we only because the DHS office for a few hours to get it cleaned and get it re re opened again but that has happened where we then have a virtual visit for that week and so after talking with Senator Clark partnering with and that are missed and that we did a survey to see what is happening across the state set because I suspected and because we've done a lot of partnership with the judges are legal stakeholders that we would be have an in person visits and that is what is happening across the state and she can talk more specifically I don't know the case that you specifically reference to me last Friday because you didn't give me the case but after working with Anna we did find one case that there was in fact visits from the beginning of the case all the way to termination which is an oddity but in that particular case I'm not sure if it's the same one that you referenced Senator Clark or not but that judges not ordering blanket virtual visits but that case is a case where the baby is medically fragile the paying parents continue to be used drugs and be seen and the community exposing themselves and not taking appropriate precautions. And they were not working the case plans so in that particular case based on the fact the fact that I have seen that was appropriate decision to the virtual visit even though it was a baby throughout the case and there was not a blanket order across multiple cases of virtual visit so if you don't mind I'll turn it over to Anna for her to talk more specifically about what she found from serving the SEC or DHS attorneys across the state. Thank you Mr chair yes I I this is not a scientific result that we were able to obtain it was just and sort of an informal survey of all my staff also have five area supervisors are trying to really get them to work with their staff to get as accurate as we could but just anecdotal that we tried to gather but everything that I can see by all indications there's not one judge that was reported to me that has a blanket virtual visitation not one person responded that way it was all that if it virtual visitation is happening is just on a case by case basis it's just when there is a safety concern and the this particular case that Dr Martin was referring to that was one where in our and our informal survey we really tried to drill down and tell us if there's out wire cases if you can that might be something that would be concerned about any to look into and just the one case that came to light it really was a serious safety issue it like matter of life and death if this child was exposed and that was actually the physician recommendation before cobit if I'd the child was exposed to a cold it could result in death so that was it was really the case that we learned about and I don't know if this is the one in there may be others that that just didn't get filtered back up to me but it was a really really serious safety situation. What. I'm gonna ask you about your wording. Of because you're saying case by case. Of and there's a big difference between visit by visit. You know is you know somebody's positive for covert and case by case which is what our. Was. Told about were a case continues you know. We we take the one case can continues to help resume visitation rather than visitation yes Sir yes let me clarify that so in the in a survey that we did about what was going on in general about what were the judge's orders about visitation what are you experiencing most of the judges there was no prohibition on in person visitation judges allow in person in person visitation that may be there the it varies so again this is not scientific that we got all of this data back but if there wasn't an in person visitation it could be as Dr Martin said if in that situation someone was on quarantine of whether that is the foster parent or or the parent themselves in that situation for that visit or that week or to a visits yes then that was the court allowed discretion was not going to mandate and in person visitation for those when those particular situations arose with those particular visits but then the the one case that we did learn about was a a case situation that case specific not that was not the case for other cases in that county it was just that particular case for the visitation throughout the life of that case because of the safety issue. So what we're telling you Senator Clark Is within find that judges are blanket Lee ordering virtual visitation across at this is the the server that we did in ending Brian can also I know he did some weighing in this last week to try and dig down and see what parent council I was hearing as well but not we didn't find a judge that's blanket Lee ordering virtual visitation across the board without looking at each case individually and for the for the three judges and which ended mention the three judges he per firm for it he per fire marshal visitation if the parties agree it than in person can happen and I was excited to hear that there were numerous cases where my staff were working with parties and having in person visitation so I mean we have really worked have message and put out guidance at DCFS we have partnered with the judges we have talked about visitation we have tried to put safety precautions in place we have encouraged visitation at places other than DHS specially before it got really cold we were encouraging outside visits we were providing PP to parents that they didn't have it we didn't messaging with the foster parents as well to try and get them on board and feel comfortable about in person visits because we do at DCFS and I have and I will say I can't speak for the judges but I have heard from judges myself that visitation is important and I just don't see especially based on the survey that and I did it's just been a week we can gather more data that we have a major systemic issue with virtual visits happening. Mr Welch. Based on and and just for the. Eighties reference you did reach out to me earlier this week regarding this Issue and I I in turn reached out to my attorneys in the field I heard back from roughly about a third of them and their comments and input mir what director Martin and miss in the or R. saying there there doesn't seem to be any blanket requirement for a virtual visitation however there are some issues in some areas where we have some problems with particular cases and maybe some particular workers won an attorney indicated that any visitations that occur between Infants or children the this deed they said DHS is checking with the child's PC PC if it's safe for the child having purpose in person visits and following that doctor's instructions I'm so there you know outsourcing that decision to some extent we've had some issues with foster homes not being willing to do in person which give and you know the issues of code if if there's someone in the foster home has you know they fall into the high risk category that can be understandable but we have some foster homes that apparently have pushed back despite the fact that children are in day care in school foster parents working outside the home and yet they don't want to have in person visits so those are the kinds of things that we're dealing with it's more of an individual case by case visitation by visitation situation I did not get anybody report to me that there judge is ordering blanket personal visitations only there are some struggles with the virtual visits that do take place when they have some maybe some children there taking part in their virtual visitations that maybe are old enough and the parents expressed some frustration. And then there's some there's some issues with that but by and large there's not a blanket prohibition against in person business that I've been able to find. Sir card members find a couple the statement that Mr wells it's hard for me there yes the last name M. so as to that I mean I agree that we are having some issues like here and there while those were one attorneys reporting issues here and there we have worked with our foster parents and our foster parents are not deciding what visitation occurs like they are a member of the team and we want to work with them but if foster parents are not willing to cooperate with the Department and follow guidelines around what visitation occurs or doesn't occur every week then we are working with them in determining whether kids need to be placed in their home and so if there's a week where they're quarantine or where there's a particular issue that obviously that week or maybe it's a two week period then they go to a virtual but if a foster parent takes the stance that they will not teach children in their home and allow them to have in person visits then we are not placing children back in their homes until that pandemic is over because we at the department believe it's essential that children have visits with their families it is it is one of the key factors to moving children towards reunification and as I mentioned at children and youth forty six percent of our children are reunified by their parents and visitation is one of the most important services that we provide to them. I'm still hearing red flags but the You're not being so like minded owned business the importance of visitation and the fact that science. About their use that word backs it up of the. I'm going to the party all absent any questions from the Committee. and Per se to report anything else we need to know. No it said in a court may I be excused or maybe excused all if there's no other questions from the committee you and miss crown yes can can be excused thank you. So we're gonna go to of would be okay to bring Paul Keith and Bob Edwards together. Don't have any. All these years. This study may be on soon. Okay. Bring anyone you've got. Okay. Hello. I can. Okay of bobbin who's with you. I have with me today Mister Carter style that was law firm here to rock Carter served. R. the president elect of our organization are also servers on. The taxable. And we've got on soon of Paul Keith present Arkansas better solution is that correct. That's correct. Okay of. The Mister Keith we've got you first on the agenda so I'm gonna go to you would you like to report to us the the current state of the courts as far as the impact of covert nineteen from your perspective. Absolutely Mr chairman vice chair flowers members of the committee thank you so much for inviting the Arkansas Bar Association to address the committee on the important topic of how they're coded nineteen and then it has affected our Kansans. And their access to the courts and ultimately their access to just it's my privilege to speak on behalf of the association as president. Behind every legal action civil criminal probate or juvenile there is a wreck. That is filed with the Clarks and we really do appreciate the ministry of office of the court accelerating its electronic filing of. Program it could not be more timely than now you have electronic access to a court records all right excel rates the the efficiency of lawyers and it also prevents lawyers and their staff and court staff and let it gets from unnecessary exposure thank you the And payment and the ability to the room file and retrieve documents out keeps us out of the court houses and and helps us be more more socially yes we also command the administrative office of the courts for providing the protective equipment that is Clark I recently just talked about it's very important that everyone have access to protective equipment some of this thank you rebranded some people especially Thomas Branson going to court thank again it may not have access to it and the court staff ministry offices to be commended for providing that help. We reached our trustees without sixty trustees all over the state and and I ask them for their opinions and what they have seen with respect to the impact of the covered nineteen and on the administration of justice and our Kansans access to the courts and the as you may imagine the. The responses are as varied as there are a number of courts met many courts we understand that responded back nothing almost all hearings buys. this is often the case in juvenile and dependency neglect and families that Riess racers are those are cases where the safety of children and families yes most immediately at risk and where delays in because the most on our the court's handling those cases are understanding that none of the elements job at genuine to do their business at least in those emergency situations where there is a safety issue. Some courts we understand or still having in person hearings in the use social distancing FOR Cashner Forgive me personal protective equipment to do that the challenge for many of these courts is having sufficient space for social distance and I happened to be in Monticello and across the street from nineteen twenty seven Bills court so we have a huge court room so space is not really a problem also practice in more modern corporations around our district and around the state and those are smaller or social distancing is much more difficult if not impossible in those court records. So there is that difference between the facilities that are actually available for the conduct of court distance also as miss Clark Neogen sometimes there is an outbreak at a local courthouse and county judge or whoever is in charge of the courthouse in the administration that the cell at the we'll find it necessary to separate closed or else now and when that happens of course it can't be any hearings or any proceedings in that in that court house Gramley law proceedings which is a large category of cases in the state of Arkansas are proceeding in accordance with video conferencing. I understand criminal bench trials are also proceeding and from the information that was our game the committee criminal jury trials some are being jail the backlog or the the. The chokepoints so to speak appears to be several jury trial it's because criminal trials for state residents as the juvenile and the black cases our state precedence over Graham over civil jury trial it's and so there are some extremely long settings that we have occurring in several jury trial is and this is problematic for both the defendant and for the wider because our experiences band that case is really good movement and other than the or more likely to be several when there is a trial date approaches and so K. stern nineteen not being resolved in some instances as promptly by mediation and settlement as they would be if we had trial dates on the On the agenda and all the court's docket we have also learned that there are certain obstacles that were reported to us one is you have court in the court room because it's too small where can you have court some cities are lucky to have multi use facilities some are simply not especially rural areas they're not large multi use facilities that could be used there's concern that Jr or as well as a thank you this is a because of a sometimes unbounded the of being impacted without there is a concern about or to ask questions and I just mentioned and. One that did this to me is very important as we move that we may stay with in some instances electronic proceedings enacted the after the company nineteen grand damage as subsided and that's broadband the people that report to me that they're having the most success with the zoom hearings and we're virtual hearings are the people that are in metropolitan areas and in areas that have really get broadband Sir if you come to other parts of the state in the south Arkansas for example is not hard to fall off of the of the internet now and some say well any use cellphones really not a very good way to use cell phones or a video hearing again it's a data. the data situation so that's that is a can be a real challenge I was on a hearing yesterday or actually was a little it was a hearing and the judge did not have she was operating from away from the courthouse and she did not L. rapid she did not have good broadband service sometimes she hasn't and she doesn't and then of course you know they're issues that we're going to go the extra step of having the litigants yes by remotely of them having broadband access to broadband equipment and knowing how to use so those are the challenges and the obstacles that we see to two moving court dockets alone I know there I heard the report they've mentioned several ninety Benson jury trials of virtually of that. You know that that raising some questions about being you know we we feel like we can best assess where those needs one of the committee members that I can tell when someone is telling the truth you can sell at Best Buy looking amend the act and it's hard to do that just like we are right now hello I'm looking at the camera it is hard to judge demeanor order judge Maynard and that is an area that is an intangible that that is going to be hard to capture the agent of record those remarks remarks administer the question general. What House personnel our judges our bailments potential jurors are treated as essential personnel and maybe bump them up somewhere in the vaccination line so again these are these are not easy problems to solve but we want to be a partner in trying to solve this thanks so much for your time Mister chairman. And I'm happy to answer any questions. Central. I think I just have two questions you could you just clarify for me or maybe talk me through are you saying that the trial lawyers would be okay are you are okay with them the civil trials happening now virtually or is it problematic. In my opinion you know it's problematic we're we're going to do what we can to get this daca moving again we believe that there are safe alternatives to the traditional court room for example here in Pulaski County we have met with judge Barry hides a county judge and he is made available the space in Robinson auditorium where we could spread out there are ways to socially distance just like this committees mine today or we can have in person alive jury trials because as Mr key said a minute ago you know doing that but as soon as one thing but being able to look someone that is another and so for us we want to have live jury trials that back to what the card was talking about the court room stepping essential workers I was talking to a Clerk for the federal courts here in Little Rock and she said the federal court workers have been declared essential workers now they may not be in on the first wave maximization but she believes they will be in on the second waves of vaccinations because at least the federal level they believe that keeping our courtrooms open and giving the people of this country access to justice is is an important part of our democracies any other aspect of this country and so we would like to see the live trials we see alternative venues and we would like to do all we can to make the court room staff the judges but more importantly these jurors I think about my parents you know my parents in their eighties but is ninety you know they have served a lot on juries once I got older a lot richer is a chemical workers or their old retired it gives them something to do but they're scared so we have to give people confidence to go back into the courtroom and so the we've come up with a lot. The body is in ways to do it and they're they're judges out there who were are like minded who want to work we just need to all be on the same page singing from the same piece of sheet music is it is it just strictly up to the county judges to make that call is not to what are not you the court house will be open IBM I'm assuming that in the hope. I think it may be more you know thank you just to actually the circuit judges I think each judge okay no they're kind in charge of their answer okay what room how operates the a lot of it just has to do to with the options you know as Mr Keith assigned some of the small counties they may not have the same options that we have here in Pulaski County is Moore's larger venues to hold a safe trial and that's another reason that now that the vaccine is here that might be one reason and the smaller venues maybe they take priority on vaccinations than the larger counties at first but. this is a problem we can work through all that well I I hope we don't have to convince anybody that justice is an essential service what we already believe that and. you know we have to work at it. In the in the case of sure we should be the case I I would think that gives us a good starting point to you is to try to figure out ways to make sure we deliver on that service because the pandemic is just making all of us re think about what who's really essential you know in our society and this to me is really one of those things that really makes me think about it because I just took it for granted like everybody else another question this is not a question but it might go back to something that you just Senate Bob about each judge have been jurisdiction over how things how the courts on a run and who is going to make a decision for whether or not we're going to continue with this essential service out I it is it neatly brings to my mind this notion of equity where somebody needs to be saying are who ever it is I don't know how to explore this but we can't have certain people and certain parts of the state you know getting this essential service and the rest of our growing no we're not how old I don't know the law well enough to know if anybody else can say you know you aren't this find a way to make it happen because I don't I don't want to be flippant about and act as if everybody has all the same venues that we might have but I am pretty dog gone flippant about it should not be done that are where you live necessarily. The I feel comfortable saying that you know there there can be alternative venues and all seventy five counties right I mean there's lawyers in every county and we just need to be proactive and try to find a space for them to to have civil jury trials now look at me not every county is going to have a civil jury trial every year but you know it's it doesn't take much to find a charge money gymnasium find an auditorium we can do it what I'm what I'm asking though to if this the judge decides well we're not going to listen to the pandemic is over blah blah blah is there any recourse from that. I'm not really sure about that you know one thing we have said repeatedly is that justice delayed is justice denied all right so that's a problem and so and it senator bond I've had many conversations in the office about this we need to get trial date set and then we need to do everything we can to hold on to those two. Whether that's try the case in a court room tried in an alternative venue made it some type of hybrid Zentrale right where you have some witnesses appear remotely but we have to move the case forward okay well whatever you guys are doing I mean I know you will but I just wanna put my voice and for the equity of deliverance at this of this very sensual service and I appreciate your taking the time to be here to talk about this because I you know when we first got started I I interacted with so many attorneys who were going like nothing's happening we're not going to argue that well no I'm not busy no I don't have any money because there's nothing happening at all and that's that's a real issue but at the same time I thought about the other end of that where there's somebody back not just the Attorney but there's somebody out there who need some justice delivered of that's not having it delivered and so I just think all over the state I really I really depend on you you guys to you know push on that issue up there is some way we can help with that I really want to know because I am not everybody will push for the equity issue as much as they can unless there is a little tension sometimes. Thank you thank you senator. Senator Stubblefield. Thank you Mr chairman. German is there been any kind of financial. Impacted in regard to it if we're not having any civil criminal trials in seventy four counties really seventy five basically mobile this is financial impacted. Dermott financial impact upon the lawyers are upon our class on the entire system I believe that I believe there's an impact on the entire system and everything's just been pushed back into what it and kind of like I was sent to Senator Elliot you know we have to have trial dates we have to have deadlines in order to get things push through for me what would by list to during this. Court reporters of ages for that the bitter on salary and their own salaries in their salary status signed they don't do anything but but you bring up an excellent point because when you have trial dates and you're getting ready for trial we're hiring investigators we're hiring court reporters were having to book space in hotels around the state to take depositions for hiring experts we're doing all these things that contribute to the economy that's what I was referring to you know every case we file every personal injury case file I have to notify Medicare and Medicaid that I filed the case if I get a recovery they have the right to file a lien against my lawsuit most people don't realize that but trial lawyers we pay a ton of money every year back into the system to Medicare and Medicaid and so when these cases aren't settling in as Mr key said. The defendants have no incentive to settle cases there's no trial date no longer being hold on that money they're gonna hold on that money not only are we not getting justice. The state is actually suffering financially. In a sense in a sense yes Sir and in the state the the the communities that the businesses that depend on the justice system all those things are at a standstill in and understand and most importantly the injured parties in the those who have been harmed. Yes there there sufferance well it delays the closure yes thank you Mr. And I would think make would make film if they need money more vulnerable to a bad settlement of the longer they have to wait that's correct and the AOC is no longer here to answer this but I think the other sensed Senator Stubblefield brought up cost I think the other thing is that our our quarter cost is the same whether they're operating or they're not operating so are efficiency of your court cost is is going to be somewhat low. any other other would go who is none. Ballinger. No bond Senator bond. No I was gonna say thank you to the committee members I think Senator Stubblefield stepped out thank called up for sticking around this committee impart largely due the chairman is always been a hard working committee in the last session I expect that to continue so thank you and you will be missed center mon. You had big shoes to fill with the. Senator David Johnson but are you more than more than that that Mr chairman. Yes I just like to make one comment for leave a mmhm Mr bond style with under I was going to say the same thing I've always found that the Senate judiciary is one of the hardest working committees in the capital affects your here on Friday afternoon here in what I consider to be one the most important subjects around the main today we've cover the Fourth Amendment the Fifth Amendment you know a free freedom from unlawful search and seizure right to due process right to speedy trial in as we've just been discussing the right to a civil jury trial by your peers considering that this week is the two hundred twenty ninth anniversary of the ratification of the bill of rights I just want to thank you for having us here today thank you very much thank you and This is they are the hardest working committee and although we are in danger of meet me at the moment. German now be heard we just a second. Yes Mister Keith. Thank you I want to echo one one Mister Edwards is that and as I will as I sat and heard some of the preceding through that and then the witness they came from out Springs Senate bill Clark's a twenty cent church church member. Hers how you'll. Thousands all we need to know about the necessity of having access to records and having you process this and having the rule of law. It just says it all for me not appreciated him bringing and I appreciate her very articulate explanation of what went on with their thank you for allowing us to be part. Thank you and thank you thank you all for being here. Of central it do you have a brief question. Senate. I just had a really brief little statement Mr Taylor said when my first time in the legislature served on Judiciary Committee you know I'm an educated therefore I would go to judiciary and I've served one time in the Senate and it is the case that obviously I don't choose well because the committees that meet the most our guest which to education judiciary but I've not had a chance to serve with you Mr Mrs the a senator but as a non committee member I've always appreciated that you always allow me to participate in that come to these meetings I just wanna say I I've expressed that not thank you because I do know enough English as an English teacher say thank you and what is proper so I just want to say that you're welcome any other questions. Seeing none thank you all for coming thank. Thank you Mr chairman Mr Rosenstein Mr keywords are we excuse you are excused and the. Mr perish Greg parish exact rector Arkansas public defender commission. You are the last ones standing between us and the fee born so. I don't want. You've never seen the horses in cal's when they know what time. The. But they know. You said the fifty dollar okay the born in the if you ever if you ever horse ride somewhere where they. The where they just run out the horses do not do it like four thirty in the evening just. Because they got one thing on her mind turn around going back. These. Yes we did it on the beach in Corpus Christi and at N. one took off running with my young son. Greg somebody had to be last. Paul does the Jew but that's perfectly fine thank you but again and your folks in the client you represent may be somewhat symbolic. I believe so your honor. Senator for the record Greg parish sharks all public defender commission but I think you are one we need really need to hear from so you give us your of view on the impact of co in nineteen courts as it affects your folks and the people who depend yes Sir of the one thing I will ask everybody to attempt to do which is not really easy with all due respect from a non legal standpoint. Is separate the civil docket from the criminal docket because when you start talking about a criminal docket you start talking about due process liberty all these rights that come with that and so many people are incarcerated. PD trial confrontation. And so we have continued to work. As best we can under coated. the. It's been difficult now the early stages of it we were getting some excellent plea offers throughout the state that we typically would not have received eighteen months ago because of the people that were in jail. And so we moved a whole lot of people in those first few months. It became stagnant a few months ago. But I have maintained emails and everything with my people and I said this last week in front of a county judges and sheriffs I think the payday comes this summer this one I think and I told my people there is a day of reckoning for this. Because those jails are still full of people. We cannot get into the penitentiary's see clients. We cannot get into many jails although which the sheriff the been great to work with I've been and probably for jails last couple months. But it takes calling the right person and saying. Here's what needs to happen. And what I would tell you with criminal defendants expressly the indigent first trust factor. Much like your doctor not only quite us with doctors but there has to be a relationship I need to be able to look you in the eye be able to touch you. If you're going if I want you to trust me if I'm your lawyer I can't walk in the first time you meet mean you automatically trust me stop what happens. And so far we've done I. Humongous amount of work virtually nothing substitutes for this. Whatsoever and that's what I tell my attorneys when they're doing this work for work even before hand it's okay to communicate with your client when you've got to tell them something when they're in jail raining you're sure to hear something. But don't do that the first time go meet your client they need to see you face to face because you'll never have that relationship with them if they don't. And this that's the been the impact on us now as far as jury trials. I have made some motion with Epicureans throughout the year speedy trials been addressed and for a full. And what I have told my people is this I mean you've got some blanket orders out there just. Sir respond to enter upon their entered no approval no nothing's continuing the case excluding the period of trial. I tell my people you need to be objecting. Need to object. The calls from a personal standpoint I maintain a case this past year how set for trial in July. I showed up the first week in July the justices what's your pleasure isn't ready to go my clients in jail let's try it were set for the sixteenth of this month we're ready. Well we can't because we don't have a jury we don't have a place to hold a trial I suggest that's not my client's fault. I'm here we're ready. and so the judge continued it is I'm continuing with an excluded paired us at Notre objection we've announced ready for trial we've been announcing rate for twelve months. And I'm telling my people object when it's appropriate because you don't know that at some point in the future you won't have a federal court sign now should have an trials because they've been occurring. You have a trial judge to preside over one in Clark County. A. Judge tire had one set in Craighead county I spoke with her personally. That's settled the night before because what I'm telling my public defender says you get that date and no start in some action. Cases will resolve themselves more so than not this morning we played a capital case on the loan. A but you got to get that date. For people to go to work. I have had we had a trial here in central Arkansas month or so ago that I personally attended and I will tell you I think it was Should have happened. It didn't an acquittal. But this guy was sitting in jail. They chose to try to class D. felonies nothing offenses ruling. When the public defender is saying we need to continue this asking denied. And so I was there and here's the problem that happens. We as attorneys can interpret the picture you. And this was held in the armory this work sets you can imagine a big long room left right. With the bench being on this side of the of the armory the entrance being on this side of the armory and it was raining cats and dogs. Yes we had the chair's also placed L. social distancing had all those precautions however through no fault of his own the person that's admitting people is the bailiff. He's not an attorney. And he's been has to interpret this procuring order. I mean I took pictures it was violated within ten minutes. Not intentionally it's not. But I mean we had seven people in a room that was probably ten by ten in size in one of the ladies in there was having a fit. Roof leaking. Of another trial happened in and fairgrounds it was gonna take place in the car Warren initially. And what I'm saying this is not all the judges. There's just some that we can talk to John talking to. There's not a whole lot of trials. I just I was texting my public defender Miller County since the first year I think they've had three to five. Fables to my knowledge is at nine. It when you there is also a huge huge difference between what we consider urban areas and rural areas to. Because when you get into the rural areas you typically only have one or two judges hearing criminal cases. We had a case that in South Arkansas a few weeks ago. the prosecutor had agreed to a bench trial. The defense attorney public defender had agreed to a bench trial. Everybody was gonna be in the court room except the judge and the judge is going up here electronically. And I said object. Put it on the record object. Much as your evaluating my face right now that's what we do with witnesses and body language is everything. When you can tell when someone's. Fidgeting around and you know with this chair. and that's important. The other thing that's important or the masks that we had to deal with you know judges were saying how would you kill we can have it we can have with mass like this I need to be able to see that witnesses facial expressions. Because I point that out to a jury in closing. They're not stupid they'll pick up on it to. What the shares them last week not to allow my people is we've got to be ingenious we've got to come up with novel ideas. One of the things that I've even mentioned to a couple the prosecutors. and I don't know if it would if it would work or not have no idea but we are so we have the sentencing guidelines that we never follow. We do not follow the sentencing guidelines. And I even suggested that okay for a period of three months. This consider statewide following the sentencing guidelines. To some extent being a former prosecutor that are a little bit more lenient than some of the plea offers we get. But it distinguishes between violent and nonviolent offenses as well. And then my responses in that that's not acceptable you want to take out the violent stuff let's implement what the Nanban and stuff. Give me an opportunity to tell my client this offer is not gonna be here in ninety days you need to understand that that's going to change. That's just one of the things that you know that I filled out there I don't know if it's possible or not. But. There's a lot of issues one of the issues that I'm dealing with that I will say this because assented to a judge's I've got public defenders. With serious health concerns and you you've got to realize that we represent at least ninety percent of these people going to trial. I've got one public defender with one line. It's public knowledge he's got a letter from his oncologist says you do not. Get around that many people during this time. that's been a huge problem for us because I've had to take on the judge about that issue. I think he's AT a protected. I think he's protected by the Americans with disabilities act about hate or you were the lawyer about that in this position I'm taken. We've got to. We've got attorneys who have children with diabetes and health issues in the one thing that I will point out to you is this. Having been a prosecutor inset special as a judge. I did not have to deal with the general public in close proximity. But I'm pleading for my client to probation. Approach here she's gonna be sitting probably right here beside me sign the paperwork with my opinion. Prosecutor does not have to present that to my client. Judge doesn't have to and let's be realistic we represent poor people. Who are. There are risks they really are because of their inability to provide the necessary medical care that they should be taking and we have to provide masks. The people in jail when we go visible. And so that's why so we look at this thing from two aspects we look at it from the civil side the divorce I can do an uncontested forcing ten minutes through them I don't care we'll get the same order. I can't do a petition to revoke. Where the judges assign my Class liberty interests. Bison. I need to be in the courtroom of any the judge in their. I'll say it again the county judges have been great the shares have been great and ninety nine point nine percent of the prosecutors have been great they all get it but we are at a standstill right now with this is moving cases and we're trying but it's backing up faster than what you can imagine. And I really think it's gonna hit this summer. And I'll tell my people. We'll try case everyday that's where the judge wants it but what you're gonna hear also your county judge is saying we don't have the money in our budget for Jurich's polls to pay potential vendor people to come up here every day to try this specially the poor counties of death with judges who said that. So. Is morbid yeah on one side. We have nothing else to do. But I am wide open to suggestions the one thing that I am in the process of doing. is I have a letter ready to be delivered to the governor the I think public defenders and our staff are essential personnel. Our clients cannot come out of the jail to see us we have to go to them. The shares they don't want us in there no more than we want to be in there because they don't want us bringing anything in I get it. A but if you're level certain there in that jail you should wanna see me through a camera. That I cannot tell you. Is secure I don't know that we're not being monitored and my communication is privileged. I met with the client in the jail last week in South Arkansas through a screen both pick up the phone as for the put the attorneys and then the first thing I hear is this conversation subject being monitored recorded. All we know is not. Guess what I mean I get the jail S. that he says well that's not recorded I said you'll never convince me otherwise where we meeting at slim moved me back to an office where I had a personal contact was with my client which is fine. That's just another thing that we have to deal with. I'll take any questions that you might have. For us. Thank members for making room Public defenders are funded. Through some funds from the administration of justice fund is that correct that's correct yes. For you to are you at the bottom of the feeding beryl and senator I was not here when the system came around in nineteen ninety eight is a better director but I am told by people who are at the fund was started for us. For the public defenders when the state took that over. And during the past. What since nineteen ninety eight additional agencies have been added to it in fact I believe the the trial court assistance came in. Three years ago at a hundred percent. And so they get everything off the top and. We have spoken against legislation which has tried to add more agencies to that because every time you add one if you're not rebuilding that fun we take less it's not just us I think it's. University of Arkansas and some other places and there is risk testimony before they admitted to fund is down yes bill and those it. I have priority. Did I understand you say you'd dressed the county judges yes Sir is is are they they getting hit harder and you mentioned the jury day I mean thought about that you think about jurors making it much it increases a little bit but I mean it just that tight your having to call upon mark good morning are real close fact when I receive this invite today because mark and I had market bit my commission meeting by phone last week. there's been a study done that mark and I've been talking about for two years in fact I'd ask former senator. if consideration would be given to do a financial impact study. To see what it would cost the state to take over. All the obligations because the county judges have done a study and mark will tell everybody they have to print out to support. The court system. According to mark it's costing the counties as a whole about forty six million dollars a year state what. One forty six and fifty. And when the state took over the public defender system in nineteen ninety eight it left the expenses with the county were paid by the state the county provides our expenses and depending upon where you're at in the state. Depends on how you are funded. For instance the case that we have for trial in Camden here about a month and a half ago. I paid for the audio system because our client was sitting in jail had been sitting in jail rape case the county did not have the money. They have the trial jury selection at the armory. A move after jurors picked moved the trial to the court room. Next days it'll. Money well spent save the county from discussed all sitting in jail our guys on the street. and but that's a public defender client. Sure it it. Yes for fault at some point. I would like for this committee or the the Committee in the ninety third. Maybe everybody does I'd like to. Have something on paper from the. Thank you J. fun to show what's happening now versus maybe a few years ago intention I just got by absolute that needs to be looked at. I don't know what we can do but staff's making notes all right thank you very much for. Central. I'm just wondering Mr perish you talked about you know the. Everybody is on board everybody's fine everybody understands I'm not I'm. It is so it. But we are still not moving. I'm struggling with with you know seemingly when everybody's on that we can move what what is the thing or things that's keeping it from moving is it money or is it something else for for use ingenuity I really think it's these things that for instance when I was talking about the trial that I was demanding for my client and the judge says we don't have a place judge's July the the school auditoriums open in the school gymnasium so give me something that I can look at. even of the rule Japanese women you are from self Arkansas let me go to magnolia but I can find you something within two hours that's accessible that we can go to trial and does this does this in any way possible with us in any kind of precarious federal oversight position or it's it's the something we can. Do not do what well and not do it well and it's up to us to get it right because I I don't think so but what what I look for is is when the judge tells me I can't give you a call and I said the judge the judge thirty miles away okay that other different under trial houses any different that's what I'm pointing to. Well honestly I think I just think you know with the the in Washington's gonna help us all maybe one day. Sometimes and I don't even know that I know that I know that is constantly being reported to the folks in DC to Congress that states and states and localities need help and this would be a fine thing for them to think I'm I'm I must dependent make I'm not talking about just generally because supposedly whatever funds we get it's a related to responding to issues that have arisen from the pandemic and this seems to be something perhaps we ought to be pushing on if we're not going to help the states for any other reason the the the can we help the states for the justice of the people there you know and I I don't think we are really that I'm covered because I don't expect it to happen and whatever might happen today or tomorrow but there is going to be a time come in and you know be January forward where this is something that I think we really need to be pushing on because it is Senator one other issue I mean to issues that I'm speak with with the with more about time because we know this and I'm on a committee. A. I'm not disparaging our clients but my lifestyles of normal development their lifestyles of normal committee because of our financial situation as what's normal to the employment of say it's abnormal except in my life. Their phone numbers change every thirty six yes. Other addresses change every sixty to ninety days. And with all these cases are getting pushed off now if they're at liberty they don't care you know they don't have to report but the days coming to going to have to. And we can't find. So guess what and we're talking about this the county shall be flooded with failure to appears. Yeah and the shares coming at once to pick these people up with no place to put on. and so what we're talking about is in in our committee and I explored this but it's costly to some extent is like when you have a doctor's appointment do you get that text message that says. Your doctor appointment tomorrow you've got a port and you can stop all these things with any message you want as much as you want to. and so I do know Pulaski County I was on a conference call with the time they're doing that right now they forget bids offered some that's just some of the ingenuity that we start thinking about. Because I do believe maybe I'm just the eternal pessimist but I believe there's a flood coming. And I don't know if we're ready for not. You know we only try one case today on one court but. Thank you thank you I appreciate from. Seeing no other questions. Of Director perish we appreciate you being here today On the shared some very valuable information with this and appreciate the job that you do. Thank you certify may have a point privilege I will just the initial conversation that took place when I got here about the asset forfeiture I'll just tell you that I started my career out as a deputy prosecutor is an asset for for the fourth or attorney well it's changed but I did that for several years from a prosecutor's standpoint so if if you have any questions upon my experience with that I'm always available. We may we we may consult to later. I want to Thank the committee this will be our last meeting as the Are we ninety second. The ninety second of you guys have been. The extremely hard work and and we've only had four meetings in the intro because of all the things that have happened and. I didn't choose Friday afternoons. Bye bye I did choose Friday after this will show it was the best choice okay it was they also offered this next bill they also offer this next week Monday Tuesday or Wednesday so. So just so you know this was the best choice and some important issues that got covered and we didn't have any other time we could do it. Senator bond you will be missed we've told you that but you will be missed on this committee of very much. Of and the. Allison and Ashley thank you all of for all your hard work in and that you had to burn the Midnight Oil whether you or your families wanted to or not so thank you thank you honor but I have a merry Christmas and a happy new year.