Judiciary Committee- House

A. Mayberry is indicated she has some additional amendment she may want to put on that bill and so I am not sure at this point in time if that bill is going to be heard on Thursday of this week or not but I will certainly let you know but it will not be heard today. And then on house bill eleven eighty four in New York excitingly waiting for my bill to show up well I've got to do an amendment. And that the mentally ready Thursday so we will move house bill eleven eighty four to this coming Thursday so mark that down. In addition on Thursday we will have house bill one one zero zero. One one zero zero will be set for Thursday then for your calendars members if you will mark on your calendar next Tuesday. February the second will be S. B. twenty four is going to be on a special order will be the only. A bill that we will hear that day so please mark that down on your calendars and prepared for that and we've already got we have bill set for next Thursday but will address those as we add to it. Represented Wardlaw has a bill that he will be running Hughes over another committee so we will skip down to House Bill twelve twenty two. The house bill twelve twenty two Willis Representative by share Smith if you'll come and take the chair and I'd also ask we have in our audience Chief Justice of the Arkansas Supreme Court the Chief Justice of the court of appeals that they would also come to the table for this bill. Represent the Smith. All right chairman Dalby are you ready to present your bill. I am vice chairs Beth members this is house bill twelve twenty two and I welcome to the table here today to answer any questions there here in support of this bill but also to answer any questions that the committee may have to my for leftists to Chief Justice the Arkansas Supreme Court Chief Justice Kemp and to my immediate left is the newly appointed Chief Justice of the Arkansas court of appeals chief Harrison and so they are here if you have any specific questions this bill let me give you just a quick brief history so you'll understand why we're here this is a bill that that arose from those of you who may have seen may sit on Legislative Council in the law has been has said that if the clerks in the Supreme Court or paid one thank the clerks in the court of appeals has all the clerks in the Supreme Court before the pandemic hit. There was a race given the court of appeals clerks didn't get that race and they could come back afterwards you may remember it all of that that went on at that point in time. This is really a bill that's originating from the Senate side but I said I would start it down on this season Senator Hickey at that point in time the pro tem of the he is not a party to the Senate. tell the membership that he would work to get these issues worked out so we didn't have that little confusion or the bump in the road that we had back February two I don't know it seems like July or sometime around that time of time just got away so would Senator Hickey in a number other legislators I was one of that was included we met early one morning It It all in to talk about this bill we had members of both courts here to talk about the bill and to look at it come to an agreement as to the language to get these issues worked out so what you have before you is that agreement and everybody's on board let me first tell you in section D. line twenty four page one you'll see that it says. Each judge of the court of appeal shall have it says a secretary in a law court and that struck through to say an administrative assistant and two law clerks will. Back when the court of appeals was formed secretary was one of those words we use so we're bringing it up to the ministry to system. They're not getting any additional employees the court of appeals have had to law clerks for eons I guess for decades but the law neighbor was changed so that's the only thing we're doing we're not adding any physician it's just bringing the current statute up to date with what the practices in the court of appeals then if you move down to Page one line thirty one. Where it says law Clerk for the. Excuse me golf course for the Supreme Court in law clerks for the court of appeal shall be the same great unless the General Assembly approves pay grade changed either of the local circuit of the judge's Clerk of courts law clerks. This is all agreed to by. Both courts but I've looked at it I can attest if I'm to have to swear that I can assure you both of these courts have gone over every every in this bill everything to the still dealing with a bunch of lawyers so here we are and they've all agreed to that you will see that launched thirty five. Through thirty six on page one and lines one through two on page two have been struck. Does that mean the that the employees of the court of appeals for any less or any different than Supreme Court but since this law first was passed the state has gone into a classification of employees pay grade Hey write those kinds that is treating those employees outside of the court just like any other employee throughout the state government. And those of you once again who sat through any kind of budget are A. L. C. Unidos you're familiar with that the pay grade that's all this is doing brings them in line and then the last part which I think is really key both court have agreed to timely gives written notice to the other before requesting a change for pay grade of its law clerks so that is what the bill does it's an agreement bill I think it takes care of what it along with the promise was made back in during a L. C. and with that I'll be happy to answer any questions and I know each of the chiefs of you have any questions I will be happy to answer. Thank you a committee are there any questions. Represent a call and you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair and thank you German Dalby as I remember and Elsie and cover from wrong I think that one of the categories of Clark's did not receive the pay your after the time of the enactment whatever happened with that during that time period are they gonna get compensated thank they all brought up to date back with a L. C. June July I'm not can't remember the exact date. July first so that everybody was brought back up to where they were supposed to be they were starting out on a level playing field. Okay so was there no period which they did not get what they were supposed to get with their any kind of a bacteria yes thank at the back pay with it okay thank you. Are there any other questions from the committee. All right. We don't have anyone signed up to speak against we do have one individual signed up to speak for. The Bill a. Yeah and Solomon are you present. Okay I'm gonna ask you all to step aside for just a moment and then we'll bring you back. Okay what are not just I need you to do this state your name for the record and who you work for and then you can begin your perfect hi and Coleman I'm the chief staff attorney at the court of appeals and I signed up just as a matter of precaution in case your questions for me our cheers and thou I to support the bill and thank represent Dalby for her hard work on this bill are as well from okay. Thank you. All right. Please take your seat again. All right. Committee we want to move forward up I would close from a bill chairman okay I'll close Robilar motion to pass all right thank you there's a motion do pass. All those in favor of the of the I do pass on this bill let it be known by saying aye All right thank you All opposed sorry. And there is none okay chairman Dalby past your bill thank you represent the state thank you members of the committee and thank you to the courts for your hard work and for being here today. I got to okay our. It down before. All right members we are now turning to our C. Representative Wardlaw if you'll come down to the table we have house bill. Eleven fourteen. Members there are there is an amendment that should be at your desk on this bill represented Wardlaw you're recognized present your amendment to house bill eleven does we don't have a. Thing on just one moment let's get it passed out. All right members you have before you The Amendment. Represent Wardlaw you're recognized to present your amendment to house bill eleven fourteen thank you madam chair Committee I've listened to you guys over the last two weeks and this amendment exactly tells you that I've listened to you. To the biggest concerns I got was who's going to approve this increase or how do we have oversight over the increase if you look at this apart to this amendment it tells you that any increase or decrease of the fee has to come to a C. for approval. And it's not of you a review process that is approval Siamese before that takes place they have to come Dale C. the first part is amendment however was that a lot of members were concerned on what that twenty percent increase could they come and do it once and then twice and three times or four times in a year which could make that fee get up to hundreds of dollars. Will daisy are having a cash flow issue and they do want to increase their free at some point of nineteen times and through this pandemic but they do want to so I wanted to cap that it once per year so not only do you have the cap once per year but you have the catchment that AOC has to approve it and I'm tell you as a or C. chair that's not an easy feat to get through in itself so with that I'd appreciate a good vote on the amendment and not take any questions from committee members are there any questions on the amendment. If not do I have a motion Representative Richmond you're recognized. Okay just very quickly could you in the amendment discusses increases or decreases in this free. When im me when does the government ever decrease iffy. So could you give me a circumstance where that would actually be something that that might occur yes Sir if you'll adopt my amendment that is in my bill discussion and I'm very happy to discuss that decrease part of this. I just want to discuss the bill and under the amendment of okay I'll wait to find. Represented Ferguson you're recognized. Right members we have the amendment before us to have a motion regard to the to amendments on this bill represented college you're recognized. Moved to adopt the amendment. Thank members we have a motion on the floor to adopt the amendment is there any discussion. All in favor adoption amendments please say aye. Any opposed the amendment has been adopted Representative Wardlaw you're recognized to present your bill as amended thank you madam chair so represented Richmond the mildness statement addresses your concerns so we spent the last year in the pandemic and the worst that we could ever imagine and our history of a country. One of the folks that suffer the most are are failing population of this very hard for them to get a job right now when they cut jobs they were probably some of the fires to get cut. And with that we need a mechanism to decrease these fees the these people need to have a chance to survive in the real world and with these fees stay in this house they are they are in statute at thirty five dollars today and the statute dictates the exact dollar amount because of that we can't raise our Lord analysts were in session. What this bill is meant to do in its original form was give that mechanism to the board of corrections so that they can assess those fees with the approval of a LC and I promise that was in the original bill it was not explicit but it is explicit now with the amendment. They can raise or lower the speeds depending on the environment that we are in whether it's a pandemic whether it's all an emergency situation or so have you in within a month those fees could go up or go down we have now limited that with the amendment that they can only go up once per year I totally agree with that personally and seven dollars to these population is a lot of money so that twenty percent equates to seven dollars on the first race. So with that I'll be glad to take any questions from the committee and I brought the staff from Arkansas department of corrections to answer any questions you get too far into it for me. Good. Richmond you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair and thank you represent Wardlaw for that explanation that did help the question I have is that the language courses very clear they can only raise it once a year and that is under pretty good supervision as far as oversight on that can you lower more than once a year. Yes Sir all right thank you very much thank manager. Represent Richardson you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair so the way I understand it now you the the reason this bill was created was to give you some flexibility to move back during the pandemic right so we maybe this is more for for Secretary of grace. So if if this passes. We can expect this to go down. Represented regions which all I'm sorry manager. Hensel secretary grace Solomon graves of terror correction ribbons represent averages and you can expect that there will be a a conversation with the board of corrections about the need to adjust to be downward if the pandemic continues and employment becomes a issue for up in the populations. Hello. You're recognized for follow up so I don't know if I got a clear right there so are you telling me yes or no I cannot speak I can I will give you give you an answer as to what the board of corrections we'll do because the the though process begins with ACT scan by the board of corrections at the staff level I can tell you that myself and and your bread chart our division director look at our employment numbers on a monthly basis and if it becomes a need for us to take advantage of this mechanism you will give us there will be a conversation with the board of corrections about the need to adjust the downward as you authorize us to do so. Thank. Represented Clowney you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair thank you represented Wardlaw Secretary graves every conversation that I've had up to this point has been about The the need for funding for our system that that part of the reason that this bill was brought about was because that that the system is under funded and I have compassion for that I understand that there's more that we should be doing is a state government for y'all but I didn't hear ever the pandemic explanation I'm happy to have heard it now but since that was the explanation that I had heard up to this point those are the questions that I've prepared so I'd like to focus on potential increases I'm when I looked over the data about collections and I saw that over the last well in twenty twenty. Fifty five percent of folks are paying their fees eighty six percent of those people have jobs in other words they're working hard they're not paying their fees presumably because they just don't feel like it but they're really struggling to make ends meet I'm why is this for you all why do you think that putting these fees you know on the backs of folks we're trying really hard working towards reentry we're gonna have the hardest time paying it is the best long term solution or do you think that there is a better long term solution for else funding thanks. thank you president Clowney for that other question general I'm answer in two parts the first is I want to reiterate what it represented Wardlaw said in his opening comments that this bill gives us options which we don't have under the statute as as is currently drafted gives us have a option to address emergency situations that necessitate a of request to the board of corrections and the Legislative Council to decrease gives us options to make a request to the board of corrections on the Legislative Council to address emergency situations that necessitate a aborted judgment in the fee capped at the twenty percent once per calendar year to give you an overview of what an example would of that would be I don't think there's anybody in this a committee that doesn't agree that we have a drug problem in this state. We and in many communities that the drug abuse is a all of opioid addiction. Hypothetically of the Division identifies a of a treatment program whether it's an expansion of our existing grant funded Medicaid assisted treatment program and the division of community correction or another treatment modality for opioid addicted offenders and we want to implement that program this bill as over present Wardlaw has amended and that and as a you all are currently considering it would give us the ability to go to the board of corrections and say a German man is members of the board we have this opioid addiction modality we want to implement within our community correction population we expect that it's going to average out to three dollars and forty cents per offender. We want to recommend to you and then but ultimately the Legislative Council that we had just fees by three dollars and forty cents to allow us to fund this opioid addiction treatment program that's an example of a conversation that the director Brad Shaw and I would would have to necessitate I'll board increase this just is in the oven we need to buy pens and pencils in office supplies type conversation this fund as is currently designed supports offender programming provides direct services to the offenders and that's what is going to continue to do. You're recognized for a follow up. Thank you and I I do really appreciate those types of programs I think they're exactly what we need I think we need to think about ways to keep folks out of our out of our system as much as possible so to that end if fifty five percent of people are able to pay their fees right now when they go out that number will drop fewer people will be able to pay them can you talk us through a little bit like what happens at that point if somebody doesn't pay their fees and specifically will that increase the likelihood that more people and in our jails and prisons thank you. Represent Dalby with your approval I'd like to deferred to our division directed to discuss art and violation got in our fee waiver system sure Mr retro feel state your name yes ma'am a jury Brad Jones director division community correction currently as part of ACT four twenty three we developed an offender violation guide on that guide failure to pay supervision fees is a low level violation. That's five point. It's not allow boys you know stations and some like prison just because they can't pay it's not allow we don't do that now some might say that was included in the charge but if you committed the offense of murder and you of fees we can send you back for not paying your fees we work with individuals we have a process in place for waiving fees for indigency we currently way five to eight percent of the fees that are out there and we also have a community service program for those that can't wait trying to get a job will let them work in the community to community service and that will pay the fees so I don't see if that were to Kerr I don't think that it would but if that were to occur it would not increase revocation Jr jails anymore. Representing Collins you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair so we're we're raising taxes here essentially by raising this this be on people and with compound interest is not just seven dollars you know what seven dollars the first time if we raise that that's the Max but then the second time it's a hundred twenty percent of seven dollars and so on and to the point where ten years down the road we could be talking about two hundred eighteen dollars a month or you know twenty six hundred dollars a year. And so I guess my question is is there anywhere else that we have done this kind of tax raising through the back door of letting agency said its own fees and having I'll see approved or is that you need because I think normally our taxes have to go through this body and sometimes through the constitution. To start up this bill doesn't raise any fees it gives flexibility the department of corrections through the board of corrections to send a raise in their fees are a decrease in our fees to a LC for approval. Right now there fee is strictly set in statute most agencies bees are set in rules and they come through rule making process through administrative rules so it is unique that there is a setting concrete and they can only be adjusted every two years by a session so this would almost put him in line with everybody else the only difference is as we get approval on there is outside of the rule making process because we put it explicitly in the language of the rest of them go through the actual rule making process period. So this is not raisin anybody's V. E. R. lowering anybody's B. it gives the right for that to be done through the department of corrections in a LC so when we set in here in August of last year and our unemployment fees were during the unemployment rates for through the roof they could have came to us and lowered it we've seen those on employment. Rates in improved since then. But I want to have a mechanism to help these people if we get back into that state I sat in that chair Nailsea and heard people beg for a way to help and we couldn't help until we got the session this fixes that problem so if we want to go out here and we want to say we can't we're just gonna leave and statute and will raise it in statute or were lowered and statute every two years that's fine with me but we're going to be set ourselves up for every two years and this thing needs our attention a lot faster than every two years. Represent flowers you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair of. Are just in listening to the discussion I believe it was mentioned that there could be no guarantees. As to what the the Board might to and it made me think about there could also be no guarantee work. Any given the legislature or a secretary that follows. The current secretary might to. And so with that I'm wondering about three things that I would like for you represent Wardlaw and. secretary to respond to as possible ways to address some of the concerns you're hearing because I do believe that there is a need for flexibility and we've heard legislation that has created that flexibility especially in the case of. A state emergency. So I'm wondering if. While providing this flexibility we could look to. Have some sort of mechanism whereby. The ability to increase would only come into play. In the case of a state emergency. And also under the circumstances if. Because we can't guarantee what would happen as it relates to I think. And ensuing increase where there would be a revocation and increasing revocation was we don't know. That it would necessarily not happen but what if it did could there be something in the bill in the event of an increase in revocation. That there would be no possibility of increasing the fees under those circumstances and so I guess I'm asking but the willingness of the. sponsor an agency would be to make those kinds of changes at the way this sort of. Create a Mechanism to prevent further increases if there was revocation. And maybe even to use the increase only and under the circumstances of an emergency. Represent flowers taking your question is in order the first piece they're it wall a state of emergency declared by the governor or or the legislature would get what obviously be a justifications from a justification for just a moment we we have to also be cognisant that a justification for adjustment Would be the need for additional transitional housing for offender populations need for additional drug treatment far into populations the need for additional GPS monitoring to safeguard our communities from high risk offenders and make sure that we have real time monitoring of them so there there are a legitimate of reasons why we would bring a request to adjustment to the board of corrections into the Legislative Council outside of just a of emergency situation to that has been declared and the second thing that I would want to read away re enter rate what director Brad shall mention about ACT four twenty three. Since two thousand and one and eleven the now division of community corrections has had a statutory requirement to implement best practices in offender supervision. That requirement has been street and over the ensuing now decade to include ACT four twenty three of two thousand and seventeen in nineteen seventeen which this body passed that prohibits just what you said you cannot be revoked and the parole board who has the sole authority to revoke of Crowley's in this state you cannot be rebelled to return back to the Division of correction solely for a technical violation is just not possible. Is not two and a but I want to be clear with director Brad Shaw stated we have and offender that is up of rested in one of your municipalities for commission of a violent offense that does generate a reputation proceeding with the parole board and while the parole board is wall of my brain probation staff is preparing that violation report for that aggravated robbery before that kidnapping for that rate for that homicide for that battery and that offender is also. Four five months behind on fees is that violation going to be added to that policy report yes but the underlying reason why that offender is exiting before parole board hearing judge facing potential returned to the Division of correction is because they committed a serious condition violation as set out in state you. Represented Ferguson you're recognized for a question. Thank you madam chair I think my question is answered but I want to be clear of you get some clarity on it I had a constituent who had a son who because of the pandemic L. Coleman terribly lost his job and there was a process I think in place I made a couple phone calls and that person was able to get his fees waived and I guess my question is is there a policy process in place already within department for that situation particularly as it relates to the pandemic. Yes Sir. Thank you. Thank you manager. Represent Smith you're recognized for a question. Represent Scott you're recognized for a question. Hello can you hear me OK I had two questions also with the first one is that okay manager okay I looked at Tennessee Texas Oklahoma Missouri and Mississippi and they all range from fifteen to sixty a month so I was wondering how many how long have we been at thirty five like how many years has Arkansas in at that that fever I don't know the exact year but I did the same exact thing in preparation for this I did every state the touches on Senate and the median fee for those states is thirty nine dollars and ten cents so we're below that. Okay. Recognized for follow up okay I think he you after this I just wanna make sure I was trying to see them if someone at this I guess this will be Director price shall could talk about all the additional requirements that come with the failure to pay I think you kinda highlighted on it but can you make amendments to it I guess I'm really just interested in Secretary Solomon addressed it about I get them going back it's really I want to know how this this add up to like if it inmate or approach probably actually have to return to the prison I know he just said like it's a serious offense that would be the only thing but I'm trying to figure out how much this is really play into those points adding up for somebody so represents got I asked that question of. Approximately two weeks ago because I knew that would come up What I got was a list of offenses and all read them real quick they're they're short of when someone doesn't pay they get a verbal warning they get a written warning. They get increased reporting they get increased drug testing it thirty days GPS basically the monitor Ten to twenty hours of community service a curfew and travel restrictions those are the levels of offense for not paying your fees if you didn't pay your fees the other offenses that you can get they can send you back prison are countless I mean it but they have to reach that bill the threshold so I just went through the punishment for not paying your fees and I want to be clear and I think sector is been very clear on that no one can go back to prison for not paying their fees you just heard the offenses and all and actual way they get to those offenses and those levels go up very slowly there's a lot of levels in between of the travel restrictions so nor make that very clear. Little Richard junior a I'm sorry all of. I had a note from staff the other piece of represent of Scott's question the thirty five dollar rate has been in place since July of two thousand eleven. That was my question Bills the your questions been answered okay represent the slate you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair this of spent a career well working with department of corrections and probation parole and I have never seen anyone go back on for not paying their fees at all my affect of seeing countless numbers seven be waived before to help them out so my hat's off to there and you know what I would rather see these folks have a nice day somewhere where they can. Moderate it closer to what it needs to be so ma'am chair do I move do pass what hang on just a moment we'll take that in just a moment I've got some folks who signed up to speak against the bill will do that but I'll keep that motion in the back anything further represented Wardlaw at this point in time members are there any other questions. Right seeing no other questions we do have a couple people who signed up for against the bill Jeff Rosen's when. In come to the table please identify yourself. I'm here with Jeff Rosenzweig the legislative chairman for the Arkansas association of criminal defense lawyers we have the various comments have hit most of the concerns that we have but I think several things need to be clarified the way this bill is written it only allows reductions once a year it's as up or down once a year or so of the idea that can be reduced more than once a year is not what is content is contrary to what the wording of the bill is there two separate formats of in which the fees are assessed one is probation one is parole now Mister graves and people who work for him may have control over over parole they have much less control over what a judge and prosecutor do in the probation context and there's nothing that stops a prosecutor from filing a revocation petition and a judge from revoking up probation based upon non payment of fees that happens it happens a lot the Arkansas court of appeals reversed the case last year work person was homeless and so on healthy that he had he had half a dozen elements the cases Lawrence versus state and the Arkansas court of appeals have to reverse it after you've been in prison for about a year and a half on the score we indigent and so the idea that people don't go to prison for non payment of a fee particularly on probation is not something that Mister graves has any control over that is controlled by judges and prosecutors of the other thing that I'd want to point out is it's not like this is the only cost that these people have they're going to have court costs. Yes we're going to have the DNA fee even has nothing to do with a sex offense occurred we hot check remember DNA fee they're going to have maybe have restitution they're going to have a fine and in addition to attempting to support themselves and members of their family I think it is a I think it is dangerous to give give the Department the discretion to mess with the amount of the fees I think this is something that needs to be done explicitly by an act of the legislature and not not to kick to an administrative agency anyway that's and I'm happy to try to answer any questions you might have represent Clowney you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair over here was reasons like a decedent So my question has to do with just your serve on the ground experience with non payment so I'm glad to hear that by and large folks don't get revocation for non payment but can you talk to what you see you know when there are those extra reporting requirements that kick in does that make it easier for folks to trip up and end up back in prison or do you find that that that they sort of are able to work through that just as well well what what I see a lot of two is that someone gets behind on their fees and they're free to come in because they don't have the money and they're free they're going to be taken into custody right then and there of for non payment and not maybe not maybe not sent to the pen but J. old on the instance of a probation officer or parole officer which the which they have the power which they have the power to do and so they get farther behind they don't report because much of the there is a I want to a one to one correspondence but fairly close relationship between failure to report in favor to pay fees the number one aspect to pick up the report cost repair report is they don't have the money. Thank you. Representative Richardson you're recognized for a question thank you madam chair of. Question is when we talk about fees of. What what exactly are those because it's my understanding that this particular bill addressing the supervision fees is on is in addition to other fees that are there. Well yes of every person let's take your persons put on probation of four of forgery hot check something like that he is going to he is going to have a court costs to pay you know which is probably in between hundred fifty two hundred dollars you'll have the DNA fee of about two hundred and fifty dollars they may stick some other warrant service fees on him he will almost certainly have a fine of some amount you will have restitution a restitution hearing amount and then in addition to all the she's gonna have to pay thirty five dollars or forty to fifty whatever you end up with a month in addition to all these other you all these other financial obligations to be put on probation nappies committed a violent offence is almost certainly going to the pen so these are people who are almost all who will have committed a nonviolent offense of some sort of now with regard to the and then of course when they get parole Dave may have been out of commission for society for the year two years five years ten years and all of a sudden they've got thirty five dollars a month in addition to whatever other things and of course you we know the difficulty of anyone finding a job in this economy much less the situation of a someone who cares no work history and has a hawking and has a criminal record from trying to find one and of course what is what happens there to make the fever to support themselves they end up with you know the end up to a burglary forgery some other things to keep our or they end up homeless or depending on the part on this particular the particular circumstance I better way to fund Act obviously they need. Programs to better better way to fund them is out of some sort of general revenues just like you shouldn't be funding the prison out of. Right out of each. Fortner really high phone charges which is apparently how they run a lot of the prison which falls on the which falls on the back of the of the families and obviously also has a significant impact on the number of cell phones the find in the presence to because it's a lot cheaper McCollum cellphone moved. you know then the paper paper speech. Members any other questions. Seeing no other questions thank you thank you we have no one else who signed up for against the bill so represent. Mr Perry street I don't have you signed up to speak for against the bill. What what purpose do you wish to speak German Dalby I'll sign up online and outside sorry we didn't it just said information we didn't have you signed up for against the bill well if I may just to expand on what Mr Rosenzweig said for information purposes identify yourself you may give your statement Greg parish Director of the Arkansas public defender commission and I would like to serve part represent Wardlaw because when I read this bill reached out to him and he advised me to contact Mister graves and I did so and I commend Mr grace Mr Bradshaw all the work they do these programs are important however. What we're talking about. For the majority of these people are people who have already been determined to be indigent they were our clients. So there was already finding that they were poor before they were convicted. And some now just for information purposes if you walk out of a courtroom in Pulaski County. Or Washington County I can tell you what you're going to if you're on probation. You're going between fifteen hundred and two thousand dollars. What you're gonna of. And these people don't have the money to pay that so they have to pay it out monthly. On which is added a ten dollar fee monthly to pay it out. That is completely separate. From the probation or the profi. The monthly pay is typically somewhere between fifty and a hundred dollars. Plus the thirty five or the forty two or whatever we end up that. And. We're generating revenue. On the backs of the poor is what we're doing. They don't have the money. As I told the caucus yesterday. Go to McDonalds and buy two meals. That's eighteen dollars. Too many of us in here we wouldn't think twice about it. But to these people they do. All I would suggest is and when Ross started on this something probation fees were ten or fifteen dollars. I have no problem with someone who breaks law being punished none whatsoever. What we take in their ability to pay. When there are assigned an attorney. We take in their ability to pay. If they are violated. Potential revocation. I'm just asking this body to take in their ability to pay. Before we allow Corp large increases because as was pointed out earlier. If I've got a client they don't care if you decrease. That's not their concern you don't have to tell in your decrease in. Is the increase. Thank you madam chair avi glad to answer any questions well since you're here for information purposes I'm not gonna permittee any questions but thank you yes ma'am. Represented Wardlaw you're recognized close for your bill. Thank you madam chair. There was a lot of things said. Here not I want to address a couple of them The first gentleman made illusion all the fees and how it costs about fifteen hundred Bucks when these guys or ladies get set up into the system that's true there's only one city in that fifteen hundred dollars that we set in statute and that's this the the Courts set those other fees and their different depending on whatever that offender offends their level felony whether it's murder where there's rate whether it's whatever so I want to address that The second gentleman his fees capped at four hundred dollars and statute for the for the public defender's. So his fees a whole lot more than this fee and it takes years to get to his feet level and he gets at one time at up front. So I'm telling you if we want flexibility to deal with these inmates are these probation or some sorry is wrong language we have to pass a bill like this the bill to have that flexibility if we want to keep in statute then this bill needs to go away but that's where we're at is to be able to have the flexibility to address fees in a time of emergency order dress fees for cash flow reasons for the agency so of not trying to hide anything want you guys to know everything and like say we amended it to have better control over the increase out of that. Thank you madam chair. Members represent Wardlaw has close first bill represent the slate I will recognize you now for your motion. Thank you madam chair of moved to pass. Members we have a do pass motion on the table. As amended do pass as amended is that correct represent a slight. Correct for the motion is to pass as amended Sir any discussion on the motion for a person to call and you're recognized for discussion. Thank you madam chair and again after I appreciate what you guys are trying to do in resin revenue for the Department. you know I I think as has been pointed out the most likely direction these fees are going to be going is up because the bill has stated you believe the fees are too low to cover your costs for the supervision and and that's something we absolutely should address but I was also stated this is doing so on the backs of the poor people for whom thirty five dollars a month already is a lot these are people who were either on probation or just coming out of jail and it's difficult and it's difficult enough without this free it's more difficult with this fee and it's far more difficult with higher fees I appreciate the the cap on this but at the same time it's really not a cap because it's it's an unlimited number of increases that can happen I just has to happen once a year on its way in to the end unknown level a level that we can only be seven and and the determination of ABC and the Legislative Council and finally I just wanted to thank the people who over the course of the last several years and and even decades to raise our attention to better understand that fines and fees are form of taxation and that they're aggressive form of taxation for far too long we've done this we've drip drip allow more and more of the burden of maintaining government to fall on the shoulders of the people who can't afford it the most and I appreciate people specially from the conservative side of the island Republican Party who have drawn our attention to how this is unfair and we need to do better by our people so that's why I'll be voting no on this thank you. The Representative called to spoken against the motion. Sir anyone speaking for the motion. Her absentee flowers you're recognized to speak against the motion. Thank you. Are the very beginning of this discussion I heard Representative would like to talk about. You're the need for flexibility and how we need this flexibility in order to. be able to lower the fees whether it's during an emergency or otherwise and I believe that that's your intent I just don't know that opening it up this way. So that legislators to follow us and Administration administrators who follow the current secretary. And governor's office you know we don't know their intent and this is wide open and I will say it how it is now I can't support it but I would love to support something that has stricter construal controls are no increase at all so that we can have the flexibility to lower the fees but as of right now I cannot vote for it. Representing the call you're recognized. I also want to to speak against for a lot of the same reasons that my colleagues have said because I understand the programs are important and that we we need those but also feel the same way and just want to echo what they said about I hate that being on the backs of people that really have trouble paying for these for these fees and hope we can find another way to to get that money the. Members we have a motion on the do pass as amended on house bill eleven fourteen all in favor say aye. All opposed say no. The eyes have it you've passed your bill thank you ma'am. It members. Remember Thursday we will be taking up House Bill eleven hundred House Bill eleven eighty four. And I at this present time that's all I have and I'll let you know if we have anything else I don't believe there's any other business before this committee thank you for being here thank you for the