Insurance & Commerce- House

We should be fine. You are recognized good morning committee I've got a this might be high no it's cliche but this might be the easiest bill transfers one number going from one to a six what we're doing is we're extending the deadline for Hey very after surgery program that for our state employees and for our teachers employees as well for for the coverage of these two types of surgeries are these types of surgeries there's a few different ones and all it is is not changing anything within the program the program itself has funding that comes out of G. R. but if it any point in this program there is any kind of fiscal issues that has an automatic kill switch built into it so it has absolutely no risk to the state but this is something that has been very effective in helping the health of those who are participating and that's all we would like to do is just extend this program to go to twenty twenty six I'll be happy to take any questions okay. That is simple members any questions. Represent of rye. Thank you Mr chairman I did just because I'm new here I'm curious how long is the pilot program been in place and what and can you give me any. Despite you said it's been successful that way do you have any data or or anecdotal information about how it's been successful yes of this program's been in place since two thousand eleven it's been renewed twice since then hi there is a total of three million dollars allocated to each of the participants in the program we've never even come close to maxing out on those. But K. me follow. Members any other questions. K.. Okay Sir represented fielding I believe you have a question. Motion to appropriate time okay. And Representative Alan. No question okay. Right is there anyone in the audience that wishes to speak for or against the bill call for the force first. I don't know if we have anyone signed up anyone against. Okay recognize of represent a feeling I'll recognize you for a motion will actually I should just ask you if you were closed close for the motion appreciate both represent a fielding your motion. Okay members we have a motion of do pass is there any discussion. If not to few prove the motion of do pass for H. B. thirteen sixty to signify by saying aye. Any opposed say no and there are none your back your bills passed thank you thank you for your patience no problem thank you. We are next going to take a Representative Vence bill H. B. O. eleven sixty five. Members you will remember that this is a bill that we have had presented and I know there are amendments that have already it's hard to the bills already been agreed engrossed so if you will let us know what those amendments have been in the if you have anyone that you wanted to table with you you can call them thank you Mr chair if I can have missed Candace Act can count Atkins come to the table she and miss Lisa Johnson were both here last time to testify and they never got to testify so with the committee's permission I would I would like for them to get to at least percent what they came to do last time absolutely thank you Mr share. Image seconds if you would identify yourself for the record. Yes my name is Candace Eakins and I am an employee of fresh come home and I just come out to share my testimony helping started when I first career with the company I am we'll we'll take your testimony we just wanted you to introduce yourself for the record and I understand there's some business we need to take care of it yes I. Okay by understanding is because you have an amendment engrossed we need to expunge an amendment that had been brought to the committee the last time as president yes okay Sir motion from anyone on the Committee Representative wooden motion to expunge. Any discussion of all those in favor of expunging the vote on that previous admitted signify by saying aye. Any opposed no representa Vaught you're welcome to present your bill as amended thank you Mr chair. I want to thank you all for your suggestions last time we were here a couple weeks ago and I know that your emails have still been blowing up and you've been getting phone calls and so forth and so on and so has mine and but when we left the meeting last time I took away five things that you wanted done first there was some conflicting testimony about the surrounding states that allow similar exemptions to what we are asking for you will find on your desk three different. We are distributing that okay. They're handing out right now three different firms that have giving you of the state's languages that surround us and I know that that was a big question about that I've I want to say that it's a. I think we were almost caught told that we were lined the all when we said that last time and my word means a lot to me so I want to make sure that I can prove to you that that I did not live in those letters there should prove to you that I never said anything that was wrong about those exemptions secondly there was some confusion about the position of the home builders association in particular the Northwest Arkansas homebuilders association I believe you've had it sent to you by email for they do support this bill as well as on your desk is a later or did you are you pass this one up okay there's also a letter here from that state association on your desk and additionally of the presidents of the state association is here just in case you have questions for him with your permission Mister chair can I read that text message. From from one of them. With your permission yes so thank data without objection from anyone you can read them okay this is from a Keith Wingfield from the home builders association unequivocally our state H. B. a board of directors voted unanimous unanimously to support this bill we also have the full support of the national association of home builders for I serve as the director and the national area chairman of area eight which includes Arkansas Louisiana and Mississippi. Thirdly you ask for additional disclosures please look at lines twenty eight through thirty two on your bill and you will find to required disclosures one that the sales person worked solely on behalf of the seller who is the buyer and an additional one telling the buyer that they have the right to to be represented by a licensed real estate agent. Again I do want to add I have a colleague remind me of something that I want to put in right here these are new homes. They've never been assessed their new homes so you're not talking about a home which someone has lived in it is a brand new home. Fourth you ask if the language could be narrowed when dealing with home builders the broadly defined exemptions that we are in that we were initially amending has been left intact as I understand it this is an exemption that large corporations I think like Walmart and Amazon used to buy and sell their own properties for home builders we have added the eleventh exemption that you have before you there in the bill if you look on lines twenty three through twenty seven this that this exemption is limited to a person employed by residential construction company selling real property owned or leased by the residential company a construction company or an affiliated entity that has common ownership. If the disclosures are made the companies are not in the business of brokering the ownership or accusations of real estate. And the sales person only works for the one company fifth. This is the hardest one for may fifth you ask for bad for us to work with the realtors. To reach a compromise I had several members come up to me and say that. Realtors had told them that I was unwilling would not. M.. Meet with them to have any kind of compromise and. You had lobbyist tell you that I have lied at this table you had lobbyists tell you that I have distorted the truth. There's one thing that means so much to me and it is my integrity and my word and I never would come lie to y'all to pass the bill any bill and the other thing is I try to not ever pick up a bill that I don't believe in the policy and I believe in this policy. On your desk you will find a letter which will state that we did try. To work with them but they were unwilling to work with us they drove they drew a line in the sand and are unwilling to move forward. You asked me to do my due diligence I truly believe with all my heart I did exactly what you asked me to do. I told you I would do it and I did it is because my word is my word. There is a reason why you have a hard time voting against this bill because it's may carrying it is because you know I would never ever stayed at the table and lied to you or ever talk to you about a bill on the floor and lie to you about that bill you know. That I would never bring bad policy before you something that I did not believe in. I will keep on about that but I want you all to know that that has hurt me more than anything that lobbyist or the real state agencies would decide to lie about my integrity. With that said how admits actions to please give her testimony if that's okay with you Mr absolutely you're recognized okay thank you for the opportunity to allow me to got to speak with you can you guys hear me clearly okay just want to share my testimony would you guys how I started with my company started right at four years ago I came in from insurance and want to look for something more emotionally invested so I want to work with first time home buyers and can better it does not grandfather is one I started I got the job they're like Hey you're ready to start we're going to get you into your new community but first before you can start working with customers you have to get a license. L. Fite licensing for what so I started class on Saturday and Sunday from eight to six studying for three weekends in a row attending class then I was working Monday to Friday eight the father Ross Coleman so not only was I was learning the rules and regulations of real estate I was also happy to learn the policies and procedures and manuals of my company it was a little overwhelming I finish class and study and continue to work and continue to study I sent in my packet to get license well he got happens my packet to get license for me to have my exams taken gets lost in the mail so I had to wait another two to three weeks to stand up a new packet to get The register to take my exam so I would about four months before I receive my first commission check because I was studying had reason in my packet wait to receive my certificate of eligibility passed exam joint aboard the and become law officially license and work for my seller. So what that that it was a very detrimental let the I had a sub support system because going for months after about ten transactions to customer relationship that I had a loss I didn't get to establish anything or bring any commission for my family. If it's been very blessed very blessed to work with this company I have had the opportunity to train several new employees I have also recruited several our realtor to come work for a company is very different learning the rules and regulations of real estate and then having to come to your seller because we have our own policies procedures and manuals and contract that we have to learn as well. one have any questions for me. And let me I'll just remind represented Vaught and our witness when you answer questions you're free to take your mask off of if you're comfortable doing that since you are socially distance are there any questions from members. A Representative ray. Thank you Miss actions for being here today The question I have is. Can you in your own words compare the job that you do as a as a sales person for a home builder with the job that a realtor representing the public would do and I know it currently you are licensed real estate agent right the if you could compare the two because with this issue of licensing it seems to me that if the sales person then this is a fundamental question really if the sales person of a home builder. Is materially the same doing the same job the same exact function as a real estate agent they should probably be treated the same in terms of licensure but if there they are for some reason substantively different. In one or more significant ways then that might warrant them being treated differently for the purposes of licensure can you please address that absolutely so here's my stance on that we have one product we have one client our client is a seller nine Floyer we have the opportunity to sell in multiple communities because we know our products we have we have to become knowledgeable in our products. what we're selling we have one client we know what our client is our employer he's are there is there a seller so there's there's a big difference because we're not representing the public run represent I want client and I want product that the and the sale of the company. This might have been a better question for Mr Carson I wish I'd thought of it when he was here but you might be able to answer and if not maybe Representative Vaught can a lot of the. Questions about this bill or the arguments about this bill center around the idea of consumer protection. one issue that's been brought up to me in conversations with realtors is that. Over the course of get obtaining your real estate licensure required to have a criminal background check. If you were not licensed would you still have to have a criminal background check and if you wouldn't. What to what kind of implications might that have for the for the consumer in a situation where they're showing a home. you know maybe there by their self can do can someone speak to that sure I can answer that for you first we can address consumer protection our customers are well aware that we represent who we represent from the time they walk in the door to the time they leave not only do we verbally disclose who represent what we also have that in writing not purchase agreements that's one way we would have consumer protection in in addition to the attorney general's office working for Ross Coleman. I haven't had any issues or any of our fellow professionals have had any issues with consumer protection or disclosure as far as background checks we work for an employer that requires background checks in addition to getting my license as a realtor background checks we also have state and I think have stated several background checks as well so there are policies and procedures that we had to pass we have drug test we have to take we have risk assessments that we have to take before we are even offered a position with the employer. We have several in the Cuba I want to ask question represent of the laws on the disclosure to the buyer that they can contract with the real estate agent who and there was discussion about that in the last meeting at what point in the sales process is that disclosure made available because we're one of the issues it's been brought up to me is that you know if it's a disclosure that send the hundreds of pages that we go through you know when we're at closing you know you just get into that pointed just signing stuff so at what point in that process is a very early in the process. From the time they walk in the door. There it's disclosed. Okay. Very first thing yes Sir okay all right of willing now move to represent avoid who has a question thank you. Thank you Mr chair at. It's on green gray and green. All. Green is okay. I have had okay. Cozart. So the so. The Representative for a his address to my questions but my third one is I'm hearing from realtors. Consistently over and over again I keep hearing from realtors one of the things that they're concerned about is what this is going to do the job market have you looked at any data and you know since this is allowed in other states what we might expect to see in Arkansas if suddenly we make this change and what that's going to do is going to be detrimental not detrimental could you give us some insight on that yes it's not going to be detrimental the other states have not had a loss of realists realtors in their state I think Oklahoma might even have a few more than we do if I remember right of. Kind of shot it bring that information with me but now we've and we should not see a decline in realtors. Thank you. Represented Penzo you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr three weeks ago when the another Representative from rascal moments here he mentioned that they had fired employees for trying to represent the buyer in in real estate that's referred to as dual agency have they ever had a discussion with you that you would be terminated for trying to represent a buyer. I don't I don't I'm sorry I missed it about a recall. AT and employed and terminated to represent how adult agency transaction with the customer and the seller from the from the time the company from the time that you are an employee with your builder your seller you know that you represent that salad you know you are exclusive you we are not even allowed to represent family members outside of our company the only way we can hold on the part that we can't representatives are still. With the seller own House bill we cannot have a dual agency we are exclusive but we have never terminate anyone to represent the seller in the customer okay and I think it might may be misinterpreted because I think he said he's never had to do that but he would if they try to do that okay I thank member there was some discussion about the terminating and that he would terminate someone if they tried to do that okay okay but it is part of the policy that you do not represent buyers correct and I know is is realtors we're supposed to discuss agency with our our buyers read contact but I'm not sure every Every you may do it but I'm not sure every agent and the continuation of doing it after. They're not using realtors I would have some concerns about the continuing a continuation of that policy occurs is realtors we're supposed to discuss agency with with clients you know upon you know meeting them so. Yes that for you We love working with realtors and here's another thing is that even if a customer as soon as they come in but I hate this is who we represent are you working with a realtor if you're if you do great bring a realtor in another thing that we also because I want to trainers for Ross Coleman is that I say Hey if that customer has the agent you makes you that customer that ages information and you disclosed today aged have your customer came out this is what happened put it in writing you call that person if you had even on board as well but that's not going to be a issue for us to move forward you have of of sold several reps Coleman houses in the last roughly eighteen years but that I've been in business but the one of the one of the things they like to do is in and they are good about you know if I have a client walk in I'm working with the you know Clint Penzo and until bill make sure I get commission but would they like to do is shifted away from me being involved in the transaction just give us your buyers will pay commission and you can just get out of the transaction that's that's Hill the they can elect to do business and I like to be involved in the transaction because I'm not there just click Commission on there to make sure my clients protected so just want to be kind of. Forthright about how that usually works when I'm dealing with with this particular corporation. Okay that is at present a question was was question no yes man that some okay well can I can I try and turn it into a question I can try to started to ask questions so the to the things I believe now yeah so I would think I bought a house the realtor and the House had damage that was covered up by the realtor and the owner so I think either way you could have in either side you could have bad players I don't think it necessarily is just rushed Coleman who you who is a bad player maybe it's that employee and maybe that discussion should have been made with that company that that's what they tried to do. I wasn't bringing in any kind of fell play in you like you said there came ready I'm sorry represent Penzo week we've got a long list in the queue and you've already had several run on questions we'll come back to you if you'd like a Representative flowers I believe you have a question. Thank you Mr on the. Representative ray kind of asked my question too but on the professional side miss Atkins. I was thinking about a lot about the argument and the discussions that we had last time about the training and the education that's so important to the other issues about the the professional process of selling property and the protection of consumer protection that said you know you have had the benefit of having training with a builder and for to become a sales person for that builder and then you've had also the education and training that goes along with becoming a licensed realtor and I guess I'm wondering you know you have become a trainer with that corporation. Do you have you found that in order to effectively be a sales person in your current role that anything that you learned and did when you went to real estate school has helped to. And it integral C. performing your job as a sales person. But I would say the bill the one most important thing that I have taken away from getting license is disclosure but. When I learned everything I need to learn to pass that exam. It was like I had in the all that out this act to re learn everything runs Coleman still is is totally separate because we have a product that we have to know and be knowledgeable up I know what I seller in our because our client lost seller wants but is totally separate and there's not anything I can honestly say that I have taken away from being a licensed realtor and applied it to. My current position is like apples and oranges VOL yes thank you Mr and I guess the other. Probably only remaining issue of concern for me. Of is. The R. fair housing laws me where state that doesn't have tenants rights laws but in terms of fair housing against. discrimination especially and everything else that comes along with their housing and what you learn in real estate school and then what you're held to as a licensed realtor. Can you talk to me a little bit about how that plays into you being a sales person or does it not in that liability goes to the corporation of the the home builder can you share with us about that thank you can answer that question so we are the face amount of self professionals are the face of the company so. We we wanna have integrity and we are held to a higher standard and we can. I try everyone that comes into contact with that we hire a discrimination we talk about fair housing laws but what. What I do let them know is that we have a policy and procedure in place The good donated and and the balance on a read it but I make sure that they are held accountable for their actions and that meets with them going to class they are also aware of the fair housing laws as well but discrimination and. Derisively we don't. I don't tolerate that at all with our company and plus we have a corporate corporate overhead as well. That would deal with. Right members we have we have a long list of those of you who want to ask questions so if you will we'll try and get to you but we also do have some witnesses that want to speak against the bill that did not get speak last time so please keep your questions is concise as possible Representative brown. Thank you Mr chair The second. Represented by put your microphone a little bit closer. Can you hear me now yes. I'm. Do you ever if you have a client that comes into your place of business. In you are able to find a home that they're happy with. With your real estate the license that you have in Arkansas. Do you ever refer people out to another real estate agent and share commissions. No I'm. The customer is well aware that Hey this is who we work for and we have also not policy procedure that we cannot receive commission referral fees or anything from my house at age at once once the customer leaves our office to NATO and get another agent our hands are loose we were no longer tied to the customer no commissioner anything in the Senate policy as well. Thank you. Thank you represented Hodges you're recognized. Thank you with. The thank you Mr my question to the here's a here's talking with me more. Okay okay thank you. This question may be geared toward you resin Vaught I'm curious to hear us talking about this rush Coleman company but how how many how many Facility the honey businesses with this. Bill except back to his talking with this one company but you know who all benefit. are we do we have do we have a it throughout the state to have many Folklife rush Coleman that that that would benefit from this type of a of legislation just curious there's two large companies that this but there are other ones that are not as large as them that's what I was just told I want to make sure I thought that was to. Large industries and then some smaller ones. I don't have a total number for you I'm sorry mom representatives just curious if we just with one company in in within within within what you represent they were passing the what and what you are looking at the you know party pass legislation so I'm just curious how this would affect that across the state how others would benefit from. Legislation if if if my curiosity yes Sir yes I. Thank thank you represent Hodges M. look leaders of follow up with that and maybe ask specifically and I don't even know if this company is still around but I remember those companies Jim Walter homes businesses like that where the houses built on your land so you already have some equity with this the impact that kind and I don't even know if they're around anymore but I think there are other companies that are similar to them. At my direction the transferee I know that Mr Winfield is here and he can probably answer your question and your question much better than I can but I know is in a holding room okay all right if we can have him come around that will we'll wait on that me when we get to the for any attached wheels will do that represent of wooden. You have a question. Please turn your microphone on. Representa. Thank you thank you Mr chairman okay like summarize just to be sure understand of the people your clientele are told when they come in. That you representing the seller. Yes Sir I want to do formal introduction they are aware of that. The realtor can bring a customer of the club until a client of theirs to your facility to purchase a home. They're not preclude you from access to that market correct. It's a new state. Hello Elsa. Would you that you're not competing against realtors in the open market correct. And What what is the difference between what you're asking for the right to do and the right of a home builder to sell his own home that he bills. Is there any difference. Yes we were however that the company some employee of the company the same same environment. That he can sell with the allies. The correct he could bill fifteen homes in one area and sell them without a license so we're really not talking about and women one more question Mister chairman of when a home builder. A homeowner will sell this home. He can do that in the open market only zone without a license. So really. What we're asking this is not a threat. To the to the realtors from the standpoint of. Close of business or any any environment though the change is the fact that you represent only your company for their product that goes back to the Germans for about Jim Walters those people does not have to be licensed when they went to this look at home is that correct that's correct thank you Mr chairman thank you Representative Richardson you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair so I ask my question goes back to when Mr Carson was here he'd described one of the challenges are having is that people get license they leave they become realtors so there's a as a cyclical effect of of having to re hire people and just to know do you do you know what the attrition rate is at Ross Coleman how many people are actually leaving on a regular basis I do not but I do know we have recruited crowd of what a few realtors within the last few months. But I don't I don't know if the rate. Okay thanks. Thank you thank you represented Representative ray you're recognized for another question or series of questions. Hopefully it's not a serious heart hopefully nine thank you Mr chairman I guess I would ask what. What harm is being done by requiring sales people of home builders to obtain a license because I guess you could argue. That you know by obtaining the license you're going to gain additional education you're gonna learn about things like fair housing laws that might otherwise not know what benefit would it be to you OR to your employer to not be required to obtain this license. thank you for your question so one of the biggest benefits I can see form our employer standpoint is hiring individuals that come in directly and start earning a commission and and providing for their family we have lost at least three sales professionals within the last four months because of the pandemic they're unable to get their license and they couldn't survive off of the salary that we provided them so that's one of the benefits after four C. companies hiring individuals to get to start a life in like for instance this employer of mine have like changed my life but unfortunately the four people that we lost. The date on opportunity could I couldn't get their information Anton Hester exam. Right to take the test to become license so is is a waiver to bring on the people for a company. Follow yes can you can you describe just briefly what is involved in obtaining the the license in terms of fees testing time commitment that that the thing so typically takes about two weeks for you to attend classes depend on the availability you can attend Monday through Thursday are you going to ten on the weekends as I did on Saturday and Sundays from eight to six all right now do not a offering virtual classes. so once you finisher courses of things about sixty hours that you have to take you the and past sending your packet to a rack for your background check and the certificate of eligibility to take the exam so once you receive that you then schedule take the course take the exam if you pass I think it's like a hundred and fifty dollars to take the exam amazing seventy five can't remember exactly and then once you pass your exam ET AL you have to do on the board but is not the last few were of your jurisdiction as it should be residing in art or selling and which is on your board I think to do the like five hundred and fifty dollars a year that you have to pay. To pay your dues and as do every year in January the question I get continuing education which is additional one sixty I can't remember the exact numbers but if there is a fee for continuing education as well that's due in September. Okay Representative can I add something to that real quick sure and I think they're learning things that doesn't necessarily pertain to their job so I think she alluded to it earlier when she said she was having to learn things that didn't actually. Pertain to the job in which she would be doing so just to kind of Maine I remember saying something about having to learn a whole different way of doing it. A represent of thought I was just reading the letter which I. Skews being. Or several opinions from the Friday Eldredge Clarke firm on questions that were referred in is question number two talks about the licensure requirements two other provisions of the real estate licensing statutes apply in a and I think the question was directed towards commissions but it makes an interesting point that the real estate commission would not have any oversight of these exempt personnel of what oversight is there what protection is there for me would it would it be Attorney General's office would it be I would assume the buyer would have civil Avenues if there was some kind of misrepresentation but it does seem to indicate that there really is no regulatory oversight and you're you're referring to what Louisiana does right because this is Louisiana goes over to two and then it's Missouri Mississippi will no I'm looking at on page three at the bottom a question to. Okay thirty seconds to under principles of agency law that are applicable in every state a real estate commission does not have the authority to impose any requirements or restrictions on a transaction that is defined as exam so it to me it brings up the question will then who does have oversight if we approve this bill if it passes and these employees are exempt who does have oversight regulatory oversight and may weigh like any private business them the company the employer they have procedures Policies and things such as that that they have to follow. Okay your your witnesses coming up maybe you might be able to live in a little bit more thank you Sir thank you represent a first and you have a question thank you Mr chairman and mistaken I want to committee you're very well spoken and I'm sure of great employee but aren't you really the perfect example of why someone makes a real estate license you're working for this company you can command better commissions and if you get unhappy with your job you now have the education and training to leave and demand real estate commissions as or independent realtor I mean I think you know it you've gotten valuable training to move on to other positions if now that if you become unhappy in this position. Thank you for your question yes I had and I do understand your point of view but for me I was looking for more opportunity of growth If the if I were to decide to leave the company that I'm with now there's not a lot of opportunities for me to advance my career besides the commission but here where I am now I have opportunities to move forward move up in the company as well. Well I guess my question is if this passes I think there's a real possibility that they are no longer required to pay real estate commissions that are comparable to what a realtor Rick yet and you may actually be hurting your job positions that are helping get long term. No ma'am it will hurt me for operability one heard any of ourselves professionals our company is very competitive with the market and they're very competitive for taking care of their employees as well so I don't foresee any issues of moving forward if the bill passes. Okay thank you members said at this point I see no additional questions so we're going to open it up now for the for and against and since we have spent so much time on the for side I'm going to. First witness I'm going to ask is is for someone who debts against so let me look at the witness list Okay I think we've already heard from. Okay I'm gonna at this point I'm going to call on Mr Dodson Bob Johnson with the Arkansas realtors association. If and if you will identify yourself for the record and then your. And we have been having a little bit of difficulty hearing witnesses to the mass so again that would just invite use since we have social distancing that yes thank you gladly thank you. A. I'm Bob Dotson I'm president of the Arkansas realtors association this year I spent most of my career learning how to be better at my trade. I have served on committees the same committees that create the The way that we conduct our business for the Arkansas realtors association all of the members of the real tors in the State. I have a first want to thank you first want you to know that the Arkansas realtors association took very seriously the request by members of this committee at the close of the last meeting that we seek to find a compromise for that reason we have had more internal meetings with real estate licensees over the past two weeks that I can remember in recent history. Over any piece of legislation that we've ever had this is the most discussed. And it is also one that we have not been able to compromise. I'd like to address some of the things that were said about calling people liars we've had numerous meetings with licensees and and none of those meetings and with our with our lobbyists in none of those meetings have we ever intended to say that anyone is lying and that we would never want to disrespect someone who's trying to do their job and and bringing something before you that they believe that is the best thing that they could do I believe that they at they believe that this is a good thing. Johnson if you I'm going to interrupt you for just a second I understand that there are some handouts from the realtors perspective and since we've already distributed some from the perspective of represented Vaught we're just going to hold for just a minute as those handouts are distributed okay. You may continue okay I was just I was just reiterating that we do not want to call anybody we we've never called anybody a liar I'm just I'm sorry did did someone feels that way I also want to address the issue of The comparison with the surrounding states. We did not seek attorneys opinions for this we went to our regulatory commission for this this isn't just a disagreement it's it's not calling anybody a liar that's these are simply disagreements. I tried to consolidate my statements so that I don't take up a lot of extra time. I listen to last week's the last testimonies twice and I considered all the things that were said and these are my thoughts regarding those. I heard it said. Of. I heard it said in testimony during the last committee meeting that rouse Coleman would like to be able to have an employee like a shoe salesman for a nice waitress to sell their homes. They want that young single mother of two to have a job. This amendment is being pushed by Jack corporation and I say that because the testimony has been overwhelmingly from rounds Coleman. Who clearly doesn't understand the responsibility of the brokers and the agents that they employ right now. As a licensed broker myself that bothers me and it should really bother all of you. To hear an agent say that once they have gone to work for else Coleman. They had to cleanse their mind of so many things that they learned scares me. It was care me as a supervising broker. I would want that scarecrows Coleman I can't think of a single thing that I've learned as a real tore that I have not used in my career or in my supervision of other agents. Buying a home is not like going through a checkout counter in a retail store or restaurant. Trying to compare retail sales to a home sale is not even in the ballpark of comparison. Let me start with real to responsibility and fair housing. Real tors are charged with making absolutely sure that there is no discrimination through either side of the transaction. We are accountable for how we treat people whether we have an agency agreement for not. Real tors have a duty to inform our clients the potential discrimination whether intended or unintended that goes for the we represent a seller or a buyer. And to terminate the contractual relationship with the client participating in discriminatory practices. We're not allowed to steer clients toward or away from any neighborhood. I'm not sure if this committee is aware and forgive me if I tell you something that you already know but this this was an eye opener for me. If you haven't heard of redlined neighborhoods you should Google it. For you can buy the book color of law a forgotten history of how our government segregated America by Richard Rothstein. It's a fascinating book about a practice banned over fifty years ago it explains how on many of our larger cities and towns including little rock. You can layer historical maps of where minorities were told to leave and told where they couldn't clear of the national association of realtors members the Arkansas association of realtors and every individual board of realtors in this state are committed to not letting that history be repeated. I don't believe for a second that are around Coleman sales Clerk would have the same dedication to fair housing that rouse current Coleman current licensed realtor agents and brokers do. Brown Coleman testified that if this is what I call flawed Amendment isn't passed that the state of Arkansas real estate laws and regulations as written prevents that single mother with two children from having a job to support her children because it is difficult for her to get her license. Let me give you a different perspective. As an active realtor myself seventy five percent of my time is spent representing first time home buyers. This is one of the things I enjoy most of my career. Let's consider that same single mother with two children trying to buy home. As a real tore it's my job to protect that single mother it's my job to help her understand that this might be the single largest investment in her life. It's my job to make sure that a single mother has a clear understanding arouse Coleman's contract no matter what side of the transaction number one. Based on this amendment that are around Coleman sales Clerk uses a contract that rose Coleman entered rounds Coleman attorneys had designed to protect rose Coleman. There is no incentive to protect the unrepresented buyer there is no oversight for explaining the contract they're signing there's no incentive for the Roscommon sales Clerk to recommend the buyer have an attorney review the contract. We were told in the last meeting that the realtors were telling you this guy would fall in. I chuckled. Let me tell you it won't for realtors this guy is not going to fall in for us but it will for that young mother we were just talking about. As it is now if that young mother feels wrong she has the protection of the state of Arkansas. Through the real estate commission and recourse through the recovery fund if you vote for this amendment it will rip that public protection away. Thank about the only recourse shall have. She has to hire an attorney with money that she doesn't have to sue a giant corporation like Brown Coleman. After five years this case might be settled but not likely since she's long run out of money. Maybe I'm just soft but when I think about her having to face a general development company with attorneys on staff whose only job is to protect the company that they. represent from lawsuits I think of my daughter. I think of my granddaughters. And it's an overwhelming thought. This guy has definitely fallen in on that buyer. I want to address the difference in accountability of the actions by a sales Clerk for a corporation versus the accountability for the actions of a licensed agent. And their broker. Wells Coleman if a rose Coleman sales Clerk harms the public and they can be fired and they can go back to work as issue salesman. A licensed agent harms the public. It is total personal accountability. We could lose our license. We can lose our ability to practice real estate. Fines can be imposed and my career is over. If the supervising broker is found negligent in supervision they can lose their license and their ability to practice real estate fines can be imposed and their career is over. There are thirteen thousand licensed real estate agents of which there are ten thousand real tors in the State of Arkansas who are your constituents. Everyone of them has spent hours and hours and hours of continuing education so that they could be the best at what they do. Real estate as a practice it's something that we continually refine. We're professionals sales clerks cannot do this job. Rouse Coleman should know that and if they don't they need to spend more time understanding the job that they're agents do. One last thing. Please consider. The importance of a real estate license being on the same level as one who is licensed to advise and handle a client's investment funds. There's no difference it bears a heavy responsibility when dealing with a life investment. I sincerely submit this to you and I appreciate your attention. and that's what I have to say that the answer any questions if there are thank you for your testimony are there any questions represented Pilkington. Area thank you for coming today He did make any outright accusations but from the comments you made you insinuated that these home builders are somehow not practicing fair housing and you have anything to back up those statements I mean you brought up red lining which is a horrible thing that I think is hurt this nation significantly And so you know I took a level that sought to bring that up and conjunction with the opposition to this bill I mean the way I procedure comments was that this is somehow we let this happen we're gonna be allowing red line again and and unfair housing practices are going to be rampant here in Arkansas And that they're good they're currently doing that DO IT give anything to back those radical claims up. Well let me first apologize if they gave you the impression that I think that's going to be a rampant problem. My only intent and saying that is that real estate licensees and brokers are charged with ensuring that there is no fair housing problems. We are highly aware of it we're trained to be aware of that. And I'm not sure if an average person of. That decides they would like to sell a house is going to understand the ramifications for all the protected classes. It's not any accusation that anybody is not currently doing their job and I apologize if. I have led left the impression that if this committee passed this it would be your fault that we would have rampant violations in fair housing. my only intent was to entertain that is an aspect of what we do and what we're very serious about the red line application I would have became aware that when actually in one of our national association of realtors conferences. And we had a big push within our. Industry to make sure that everybody was aware that that it happened. A lot of people don't know that you probably do a lot of people in the committee already know that but most of the most of the world doesn't know about that unless they read this book or if they've been in Latin so forgive me if I gave that impression but that's not what I intended okay thank you and I do have one more follow up. Sure okay. You also said and I'll quote cleanse their minds of practices when they come work for you can you give me some example of things that they needed to cleanse their minds of what I was listening to the licensed agent that testified Perales Coleman and that may not have been her exact words I honestly can't remember but she had to empty her mind or something something to that effect of most of the things that she had learned when she came to work for us Coleman. And. That really. Surprises me. Okay thank as a practicing realtor okay so okay thank you all right represent Hodges you're recognized. Thank you thank you Mr thank you for being here Therefore the couple questions first of all the are there under federal guidelines in place that protect people from red line and with with with with with rough because we keep going back to the rush Coleman which I'm not familiar with the company we keep we talked we keep talking about them are there federal laws in place that that you know take all the going back to rest until some question that that that that they will protect the from redline and things of that nature when it comes to real estate issues absolutely place absolute thing that it would would apply to rush Coleman as well So so currently I can feel at home I can I can buy a home renovated Google a sale agreement in print it out and get a individual buyer to to to to sign it we go to a title company and close the deal you know so there's really no consumer protection on on that in at for me of an individual to fail to fail to someone I'm just kind of confused as to And I had no real to involve. So I'm just kinda and it just kind of a gray area to me I've I've been in since ever since this bill from impose that gray area you know as to why can't. Property so Without it and and and and and and. You know collected do it individually what what what what and with the the big issue that we're having with the Lao in a company. To sell property and pay a commission to someone without being a licensed broker because I can do it personally myself the third so that the this is they thought it is been a great area of air to make you answer that question certainly I'll do my best When an individual cells their home. They're selling to another individual. if you sold your home to another citizen. then there would be if there were problems then there could be litigation between the two of you there could be a lawsuit you can be sued and it's very personal. if you have a corporation that sells a home. Then that corporation. Normally has attorneys on staff to assist them if there is a legal action for a problem. So it's a different in my opinion a different level of protection. that's needed for someone who is going against the corporation. Versus the individual selling a home or even even that home builder that. is selling their own home that they built it's a matter of scale the larger the scale less protection the individual has in my opinion I hope that help any. Vaguely so. Well of. Of the okay okay so amended. Five. Buy some land dispute about the land and I decided to build spec homes on that land the person not Monte Hodges but inside the bill if they called on this land and and you know then that this this this plot of land I can probably put fifty homes on that on that on that plot of land and I bill the spec home bill twenty back on that time with and and and we're selling those become film I'm selling those back home on my own of or have an individual not even a rule to just of someone that I just hired to fill both back home for me and I pay them. to do so It's legal to do that correct. Yes as long as you have personal interest in that property rights yes though okay so. Okay all right thank you all right thank you Representative wouldn't and then the Representative Lundstrum. Mr Johnson did I understand you just a the the larger the sale the more protection the consumer at. No I'm sorry to I'm sorry if it came across that way the the world is that what you said I don't think it is I think you did data so you're you're telling me the realtor. Is gonna be Hella bore inclined to give more protection to an individual this spending a bunch more money when they'll get a higher percentage but what about the young mother you spoke of while ago it buys a home phone Ross Coleman or someone else is to the small home fifty of sixty thousand dollar home you you made the statement the larger the sale the greater the protections is that right I don't believe I did Representative would if I could explain if if I said that I misspoke what I was saying was that. If you have a corporation that is selling. Versus an individual who is selling their own home that individual has a personal accountability for selling their home against that small and against that buyer if I'm an individual buying a home from a large corporation I don't have the same representation if I don't have a licensed brokers or agents Mr chairman of a Monday was the largest network of the largest realtor for in the state of Arkansas. Hi I have no idea other civic was there are indignant were. Senator I'm sure it is crucial consumer could run into the same problem dated one one of them. Well I don't see how with the with with the oversight that the real estate commission has respectfully. Mr. You have any provision of yeah what will we actually need to move on to if you don't mind will put you back AS let me has one more question. What what. What do you base what you based your conclusion all that red lining would become a problem I agree with representing picker I don't understand how you can say that what you say that very few people are aware of that I guarantee ever per stone streets or discriminatory practices when it comes to buying a home or cell phone everyone is aware of it discrimination today. So how can you make this state well I'll yield yield to your judgment Representative would. Okay thank you restaurants move on a Representative Lundstrum. Red robin represent Lundstrum. You're recognized for your question. Thank you I've heard from both sides my realtor I would wouldn't do without my pit bull she's awesome but I'm I'm wondering on this particular issue just like represented Hodges was talking about you've got your land you've got you're selling it that type of thing this practice has been going on for a long time and nobody's been talking about protections for the buyer until now nobody's been bringing that up. Until. These folks in this bill and so that rings a little hollow and so I'm a little bit concerned that that's not been an issue before now. can you address why nobody's been bringing that up until now. And to me during this course these hearings and now even before this one nobody's been talking about this particular issue nobody's been talking about protections from Walmart or protections from the bankers or protections from the could contracted that selling a hundred homes and selling that product and self nobody's been talking about consumer protections now and then but now that the realtors now that this this group wants to pay a commission. And we want to change the law now we're talking about consumer protection I agree we need consumer protection. But not until now are we talking about it to me that's kind of a paper tiger I just this it seems kinda rings hollow. Personally I've never had the opportunity to to addresses before a body like this I certainly would of I'm a I'm a realtor that sells about three or four million a year in volume. everything I do has about consumer protection. Hi I worry every time that I represent somebody that I unknowingly had done something not to represent them the correct way I can't speak for those who have not brought this up before but in my opinion I I don't I don't compete with rose Coleman I live in an area that sells no rows Coleman homes I have nothing against Ross Coleman. However I understand our ethics mmhm I understand our levels of accountability which are totally different than a paid sales person. when you bring commission into the the conversation. Anna and I believe based on what I've understand from a real estate commission that is one of the issues that is different between the states. Commission can be a very good thing it can be very bad today. If the commission percaya Commission driven person that can take advantage of someone is not supervised by somebody the broker and then can be penalized by the state when you're talking about their biggest investment in their life. Of this not a good thing so that I hope that answers somebody's Commission question and I'm not trying to that that I get off the topic of a little bit that's okay that's okay I'm I'm not interested in upsetting eleven thousand realtors and and real estate law I just it just seems odd we've got this one section where Walmart bankers were not are we going to. But we're gonna suddenly tell them you can't do what they're doing and now we've got another group that wants to do exactly what they're doing and it's just. I'm just trying to see both sides of this because I I'm getting torn and so I'm trying to figure out what's going on. Look listening I'm not well versed on Walmart does Walmart rules the Walmart rule as they say but from what I understand about it and I'm sure somebody else here can answer this question better than I but with a Walmart rule the reason that was allowed is because Walmart is not in the direct business of real estate. the big issue with the other exemptions is that those people are in the business direct business of real estate. So representing their own. How merchandise so does Hodges homes is in the direct business of real estate and how hot Mr Hodges can go out and sell his and nobody's saying you have to use a realtor even though we think that's the best practice I wouldn't go out without my I trust her completely but we're not telling Hodges homes you have to do this I don't think I'm that we've got to have some type of protection for everybody or it's going to be the wild wild west but I'm torn so I'll just continue to listen thank you represent what I Cambridge I don't know Hodges homes but it may be something the real estate real estate commission may want to get into a house or. Okay it is a fictitious okay members We really need to move for there are a number of witnesses signed up there is a motion that I would like to take to limit debate but we're not gonna do that in the middle of this witness's testimony. Leaseback sure that you're not repeating other questions Representative Alan you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman we would to thank the name again for me yes my name is Bob Johnson okay incidences of first of all thank you for coming today and I appreciate some of the things that you say it as to the the question the red line and a question in terms of the screaming Mason those things are real and and they happen and in our neighborhood and they happen about neighborhood all the time for example. That will serve our organization that has a million. On twelve street okay so will you can't develop the land because you don't have a life of the bill you can't develop the land because no one's buying houses though them and area so they go to the bank and the bank tell them the same thing they say well this there's not been a house built in that area in the last fifteen years so are the Senate Bills to help the organization because of my life to build and I'm a licensed real estate represent a valid I'm gonna have to insist on the question well I've. I'm waiting patiently I understand but. We're we're going to have time for discussion but I just need to question me to question for the witness. Would you agree this. Yes Sir What we found is that many times people don't even realize that they're discriminating. I don't always realize when I discriminate it's not what I think it's what the other person things it's what it's how we treat the other person it's how that under per other person understands what we're trying to say to them. I don't think the majority of people in the United States I understand. how discrimination works it's difficult if you're not part of the group that's being discriminated against. so yes I do believe it exists I'm not saying anybody in this room does it I don't I'm not saying rose common or any of the builders do it it's just something that exist thank you know for all of the sermon thank you very much Representative flowers. Thank you Mr in not to repeat on the issues of fair housing and redlining but more so I guess ask a question that was actually sent to me and I think it would be an interesting question I'm not sure if you would know. how many licensed agents have their licenses revoked maybe last year or maybe in twenty nineteen just to get a sense of. How these protections might be needed or you know even if just the complaints you know I'm I'm wondering that. That would probably be a question better for the real estate commission however I would like to address that question. Arkansas has though one of the lowest errors in admissions. Ratings are the high highest or lowest we have the least claims for errors and omissions in the the United States our errors and omissions insurance is some of the lowest in the United States. The Arkansas realestate Commission works very closely with the the Arkansas realtors association works very closely trying to understand any issues that come up through the of real estate commission we want to know what the problems are we center our education around hot spots for hearings that are held and again I'm not answering your question but that's a very good question when it comes to the fact that we are agents are very professional in what they do. Thank you thank you. Thank you Representative Richardson you're recognized. Okay thank you. Any other questions from members represent for a. Yes thank you Mister Dotson for sharing your testimony and also for the time that you spent talking to me about this issue thanks to nice to see you thank you I told you I would be the one with the baby face My my question is what if the if the whole if if the pie is all real estate transactions in the state. What is the slice of the pie that we're talking about what percentage of real estate transactions are could you guess or estimate I'd done expected is that number would constitute sales by home builders of new homes that would be made by these the sales people. I don't have the statistics Ralph Coleman or some of the builders might be able to answer that but I I don't know the answer to that I would want to guess on that okay I know that the The national association of realtors and the federal government goes by the numbers that. Realtor boards submit and sales so the national association of realtors and the. State associations down to the local boards of the ones that that feed those numbers so currently in those situations where we have a corporation those are all realtors involved so but I don't know this the break at center okay sorry about this is there time for a follow up brief. I have a very brief if there's not a okay we'll be you had to and and I did have to cut off others okay so. Go ahead okay very quickly. I am I want to be attentive to questions about consumer protection but I I don't want those concerns to just be vague generalities what I would like to know is is there hard evidence or is there data from other states where home builders have seen higher incidences of complaints to the attorney general's office or have there been higher prevalence is of lawsuits against home builder companies in states where home builders have sales people that are not licensed are you aware of any data to that effect. He's me no I'm not aware of any And that such a. The spectrum. Of what goes on in the other states there there are varying degrees of and I don't know the individual states I again I'm just going by what the real estate commission has advised us that there's a spectrum of very limited services that are applied for the very from state to state. And I do not know what they're regulatory policies or for those people if there's any regulatory status for that which is a consideration And I'm not sure. and what I would predict in this state if there were issues that came up they would fade away because if this if this were an act excepted of I feel like they would fade away because people wouldn't have the resources to move forward with any kind of a complaint. So it that's a that's a hard number to come up with I wish I had it but I don't so I didn't answer your question but. Members I don't see any addition. Additional questions yes you do represent Penzo. This will be real quick and kind of a the answer to The question will answer the last question what would you say that the lower errors in admissions insurance would be a result of having this issues in the state of Arkansas that's probably the reason why we have the lowest would you agree that is that is the reason and we believe that it's because the education is provided to the agents and brokers of I don't know if you all know this or not but our contracts. The I'll go ahead and be quiet I saw the. A you may go ahead go ahead our contracts or Are the golden standard in the United States for what is used there prove by our Arkansas real estate commission license licensed real estate agents in real towards use those contracts. One of the reasons that we have that errors in admissions is because we have taken the history of experience of all of the realtors in this state and design those contracts through the approval of our attorney Tim grooms two of eliminate the possibility of lawsuits for the buyer and the seller. And when we very from those contracts we are required to provide the opportunity for someone to take that to an attorney we're not allowed to alter those contracts other than fill in the blanks so that that's a big part of our errors and omissions thank you. Representative within one question please. We I believe we had testimony last the meeting are there not to currently ten exemptions to the licensing procedures I do not know the estate I don't hear from the real estate. German we are our next Speaker we're gonna ask someone from the real estate commission for informational purposes yes thank you. All right thank you very much for your testimony and at this point we are going to ask miss all for with with the real estate commission to come forward to for informational purposes she's neither speaking for or against the bill. Please identify yourself for the record. Thank you Mr chairman name is Andrea offered I'm the executive director of the Arkansas real estate commission okay. well represented flowers had requested you and so how represented board do you have a question. Okay. Thank you Mr chair I just I want to get to the clarity we have these letters from the attorneys you know the private attorneys and I've also had a discussion with realtors on this issue and they they said well we skip the private attorneys and went straight to the government in the state and maybe came back with a different answer so I realize you don't work in Oklahoma you don't work in Texas I I understand that but I'm confident just like the board of pharmacy director has relationships. In the states the you have relationships in those states so could you speak to that and and give us an idea of you know do you have it are you hearing that these letters are correct incorrect there's a difference of opinion they're coming after people who are trying to practice real estate without a license any insight on on that would be appreciated yes Sir thank you Representative I understand there have been legal analyses by attorneys at the research that I conducted was in contacting the regulatory authorities for the real estate commissions in the surrounding states in there does seem to be a difference of opinion and I did not find that any commission in our surrounding states felt that the that there law was as broad as what is being proposed here. Yes you're recognized. So long when they clarify when you say proposed here are you saying proposed here prior to the amendment or after the amendment my research was conducted prior to the amendment. Follow up with what sure so. Do you believe this amendment materially changes that or do you believe the answer would be the same. Representative of I feel it would. I feel it could potentially very from state to state. Every state law is is very different in some ways and of course fundamentally the same in some but the exemptions is one of the areas where there are just enough levels of new wants from one jurisdiction to the next where and say Oklahoma for instance could look at the amendment and feel like it's very comparable to what. To what they have in law but Texas could look at the amendment and feel. That it's not so I'm without having actually reached out to those jurisdictions I'm afraid I'm I'm really unable to offer. Very much clarity on that. Sure represent a Representative wouldn't and then I believe represented flowers has question. Shall represent of wooden. Back to my original question how many exemptions currently exist of. Hello. The real estate. Commission yes Sir in the exemption section of our code which is seventeen forty two one oh four there are ten listed exemptions they are primarily based in a in an ownership interest where the where an individual or a corporation or an entity has an ownership interest in the property or an attorney who is practicing and practicing within the scope of their ability as an attorney and then there is also I believe there are two exemptions related to property management one for a residential manager who resides on site and then another for that allows for unlicensed assistants to property managers that operate within the scope of limited duties so but the point being there are currently exemptions from the real estate licensing provision yes Representative there are thank you Mr chairman thank you represent of flowers do you have a question for this witness. Yes I just wanted to go back to my question that you might be able to answer regarding whether or not realtors have lost their license but decided censure anything as it relates to consumer protection and specifically are for housing losses thank you yes ma'am thank you Representative. I can I cannot recall. Any recent revocations or suspensions related to fair housing laws there have been several complaints that I have referred to the Arkansas fair housing commission. We. We have however had real estate licensees whose licenses have been suspended or revoked it is it is fairly rare that that happens the commissioners to take very seriously that an individual's license is their livelihood and it's how they earn a living and so the bar for reaching revocation as a disciplinary action is is fairly high and. I hope that answers your question Follow up yes two can you give us the. An idea of when you say that it's fairly rare has it been ten years since with five years and also you mentioned that in a given year you might refer complaints to fair housing what does that look like in a given year. I've been executive director since February of of twenty twenty and so but I can say that there has been in the complaints that are reviewed over the last twelve months there have been. Maybe half a dozen that I have that I have referred to the fair housing commission. And in two thousand twenty we did receive ninety five. Ninety five complaints. Thank you. Thank you any other questions members thank you. Represent a board. Thank you Mr chair for granted me one more one of the things that and I ask this earlier but I wanna hear what you have to say about this is I keep hearing how this is going to put realtors out of jobs okay and so specific I'm working from the premises that Oklahoma allows what we're asking to do or something very similar when I look at the per capita number realtors in Oklahoma verses Arkansas. There are more per capita realtors in Oklahoma than Arkansas help me understand what exactly is going to happen here that it's going to. Not it take away all your licensee's why is everybody going to jump ship and certainly not come to your board and ask for a license and just go to work for builders. I respectfully Representative I feel I feel that in answering that question I might. I might end up bearing in advocating yes either for or against the bill. Thank you the. Yes matters which you have to be careful in the questions we ask because this is just for informational presentation represented Lundstrum. Just a thought I hate this bill and I get the bill at the same time so I'm I'm torn but what I'm concerned is going to happen is if the bill fails it's just going to they're going to go to a bonus structure and things are going to go on is the same so I don't know. I'm I'm very torn I'm not sure what's going to happen with this but if they do have a problem can I not go to the Attorney General or hire an attorney if there is that they don't feel they've had a fair practice in their contract we've got plenty of lawyers if selling of that cat without hitting one. Yes ma'am so Representative if I understand your question you're asking if if the bill. Becomes a law would consumers in this in this situation. Be able to. Yep go to the Attorney General was the consumer's protection because right now we look to realtors but that protection so by having this what's the consumer's protection. Certainly the courts would be would be an Avenue of remedy for the consumers and and I believe they could they could reach out to the attorney general's office was hire an attorney yes thank you. All right thank you very much thank you members thank you for your presentation before we move to witnesses I believe there's a motion represented for a. Thank you Mr chairman just given the hour and the time I would move that we limit debate on both sides to to ten minutes four in ten minutes against okay that is that is a proper motion it is non debatable. Members we have motion forced to limit debate to ten minutes per side that would not include the time the for questions for the witnesses all those in favor of the motion to limit debate signify by saying aye. Those opposed say no. The the motion passes so to speak. Promotion we get five minutes or ten minutes for represent a vote to close. As always we will definitely I don't want her time to be the no we're we're not going to be impacting her time she will have time to close now I would ask those who are in the holding room I know there's several representing the realtors perspective work it out between you of how you're going to split this time because of one witness comes and goes for ten minutes and that's that time shot so at this point we are going to go to a witness for. Missy that list. Okay of for the build Lisa Johnson. K. and and again I would just caution you that we were going to be run in the time and there are a couple of other witnesses to speak for. Please read the identify yourself for the record good morning my name is Lisa Elizabeth Johnson I am the designated executive broker for Roscommon realty in the Central Arkansas division please don't hold that against me that I firm Roche Coleman what I've decided to do in the interest of time is rather than give my testimony that I had prepared is answered in a little bit more detail some of those questions those technical questions that we've been seeing from the representatives of if that's agreeable with you okay great. So let's see. We had Representative ray you're asking about background checks and with background checks yes at our particular company does run background checks we understand not not every employer will do that by having a felony conviction does not preclude you from getting a real estate license in the state of Arkansas so you can go in front of the commission for a special hearing and ask to to have a license granted provided you pass all the other things that you need to do the test and the the courses and stuff like that so those background checks are very good and of course the home builders association's I'm sure would be pressing for everybody to do that but having a real estate license doesn't necessarily mean that your background is one hundred percent squeaky clean either. Okay. all right and then the question that you had a follow up and this came from a couple people is what's the benefit from. Of not being licensed from not having to go through kind of the the rigmarole I'm going to couch this by saying that I am a very proud realtor I'm a member of the national association of realtors and the Arkansas realtors association and I think Mister Dotson did a fabulous job in explaining why buyer's representation is so very important we have to have those buyers the public protected but those realtors when the study when they have continuing education when they're going to their classes they're learning about leasing and mortgages and environmental laws mineral rights they're learning about zoning issues they're learning about things that somebody working for a home builder strictly selling new construction homes will never use they will not be asked to find the northwest quadrant of the northwest quadrant of the Edo city of for whatever they're not gonna be asked to do that they're not going to be negotiating agro farm contracts they're not going to be an option here all when you go through licensing through school you're learning this wide array so that it prepares you for going to whatever type of real estate that you want to go into and to prepare you to represent many different types of clients. Homebuilder employees have one client. One. They don't represent people who are buying used homes they don't represent people who are the leasing out of properties they only represent one it's their employer. So that is the difference between what you learn and then when you come and work for a home builder you say okay well I've got to get rid of all that because now I have to learn about build cycles about slabs about Hebrew forces cables all the other things that you need to know when you do construction. Fair housing that understandably is a huge concern but I understand that it's not just a licensing that ensures that we have fair housing I think the history is. The horrible but it's fascinating to learn what we've gone through as a country and where we are now and we have so much more to do but home builders are bound by a fair housing laws as well as our mortgage lenders it's not just license realtors so if I'm an employee for a group that is bound by those laws and somebody is getting a loan from somebody who's bound by those laws that's a second layer of protection. Okay finally in a cut this a little bit short. But there are layers of protection already for the citizens of Arkansas and in the state attorney general's office you don't need to hire a lawyer to go file a complaint with the state AG you don't need to hire a lawyer to get the better business bureau involved you don't need to hire a lawyer to go file a complaint with the state contractor's office so it's not necessarily of something that's gonna cost somebody money it's the same process to file at the state attorney general's office to complain as it is to file at the state of real estate commission. It costs no money and that's something that you can do on your own there are protections there and there's always a court. And that. That's all I can say that leaves five five minutes for any other witness okay at this point will move to against speakers and Twelve skis me we do have a question this witness Representative Penzo. And this does not count against the time okay. Represent flowers you Mike is on if you will please turn it off. Thank you Mr we've heard some questions about exemptions from real estate licensure but if we look at exemptions on on contractor exemptions from contractor license law there's comparable. Exemptions currently for both Lasseter's. So that's accurate well now that is outside of my scope of knowledge I don't know about licensure for contractor I do have been have been I started in the construction business when I was thirteen and I've been really a for about eighteen years of CSR Lane tile with as a kid so um. There there are comparable the exclusions of for for the individual that's one to remodel his home or or build his own personal residence right and that's that's where it becomes an issue of is this my property or my selling as a third party entity okay so do you my question another question is do you think that contractors should be licensed to build homes. Many think that I mean because we're looking at the ability for a salesman to sell real estate without a license do you think that contractors should be able to build without a license. I don't know my honestly don't know the answer that question I do know that you know you have different city codes and county codes and if you get out to a certain area in the middle of nowhere that you can build what you like and now I don't know what that has to do with contracting codes but what I'm saying is again people can build things that they are going to personally sell yes. Good good for. Yes when when somebody comes out to if if if you don't have licensed agents working for Ralph Coleman the employees going to advise The buyer to get a home inspection okay so great question and thank you for bringing that up because if I wasn't able to to fit it into my time a minute ago so we know that we have light agency disclosure currently right and it can be confusing for buyers who come and and being in real estate you know buyers generally can be very confused on how agency works they think that if John Smith as a sign in the yard they have to call John Smith right to go have John Smith show the house so what we do is we make sure that they are aware that we are representing only the seller not them but when we have that process just like Is specially with buyers agents come in but we always have the process of in the contract it mentions inspections and it mentions yet the and get an inspection and in our particular contract it talks about you know what how those that punch list is dealt with right but it's right there in the contract but today you have licensed real estate agents. Working for you and if yes bill was to pass you would not Karan so you're you're I mean if they're solely working for Ralph Coleman because some people are like oh it's new construction you don't grade correct to some people way that I encourage everybody yes the buzz new construction good omens bless you I am so I mean I I just I'd look at all these little details that are going to be probably omitted because the the realtor has a responsibility to do that no matter what but what you're talking about is again protection on the buyer side so let's say if you removed it well if the number now I'm talking about a buyer agents responsibility if you were representing a seller listing his home you wouldn't then go to that buyer who's put in a contract and say by the way you should get a home inspection no that would be for the buyer's agent to suggest in protection of that buyer so yes I can speak for only for my company and our policies right but what I'm saying is that's even more benefit of understanding the difference between representing purely the seller and then buyer's agents representing the rights of the buyer. Thank you thank you and and thank you for your testimony at this point will call on Mr McKnight often with the represent a realtor's association for a I believe. He is going to take five minutes of the ten. Yes please identify yourself for the record don McNaughton. Thank you guys thank you for your service thank you for allowing me to speak today. Some immediate past president of the the current or PAC chairman of the northwest Arkansas board of realtors it is safe to say that I represent around three thousand licensed agents which is one third of the realtors in the state. I'm a fourth generation realtor my family dates back to nineteen forty six and I obtained my real estate license at sixteen years old which is rare because the legal age is eighteen so I went to court and had my minority rights removed to be a legal adult. That is important for a couple reasons. One is it is not impossible to pass the real estate exam. I will admit it took me a couple times myself at sixteen years old. It had some math that was a little difficult it had some legal terms falls. But I wasn't aware of including fair housing contracts law and license law and ethics. We have a new agents joining our board every day at a faster rate than ever around two to three hundred a year. These are single moms and dads these are young people and old people and they join our business for two reasons to help the public buy and sell homes and to hope to improve their families live. It is very tough competition. That is what a realtor does it helps the public with their biggest investment of their life their home. In handling these kind of transactions with the public is critical. That the people are able to pass a basic real estate exam. All realtors are not perfect absolutely not. I think the test is like getting your driver's license at sixteen that does not mean you're ready for NASCAR. That's why we have brokers oversight additional designations C. E. and special courses. If you're dealing with the public and their biggest investment. You can't afford to make a mistake. And if you do the Arkansas real estate commission is there with the recovery fund. Selling new homes is absolutely no different we as realtors sell these homes every day we sell rouse Coleman river wood chipper Mitchell Buffington Riggan's to name a few. I would say with our personal company fifty percent of our business is working with new home construction. A wide eyed couple walks into a model home with stars in their eyes about color. Countertops and flooring. In a shoe salesman or used car salesman can cover the fun part I get that that's fun. But they know nothing about how the whole title. You know the dad is putting down the down payment. And honestly he's only bought two homes in his life. He doesn't know about home inspections surveys appraisals. Earnest money non refundable deposit what's the difference for the fact the doorbell for this specific builders an extra seventy five dollars. For that one builder does a better job with the warranty for there's a strict peel away. They need representation that is true. At bare minimum the person in that model home should be bound to basic real estate loss. They need someone to help them guide them down the path without a license the salesman on duty can't guide them down that path because he doesn't know anything about those things either. Signing a disclosure and a stack of documents that's forty two pages thick that's the average number of documents in a real estate transaction means nothing. That is buried deep and all they care about is the color of the carpet. When buyers don't understand these documents it's our job to guide them and no matter who we represent as a licensed realtor we have a code of ethics we must follow and we do so proudly and we do have fiduciary responsibilities to both parties. And yes I absolutely do tell on my sellers I will for their protection hi to all buyers to get a home inspection. We want that that protects our seller also. My family has worked since nineteen forty six to raise the bar on a real estate transaction and so have thousands of realtors around me. We cannot send this profession back to the horse and buggy age of buyer beware. Many have fought long and hard to protect the protect the public and we cannot go backwards with this. This bill helps a very small group of builders changed their business model and use an average shoe salesman to sell a quarter of a million dollar home without having any general basic real estate knowledge. I believe that is wrong I believe that is bad for Arkansas. That is the best thank you for that was right on the money at five minutes you must have a Class landed up Clark right inside your head of represented Penzo and if you could. Be concise in your question yes Sir thank you chairman Do you believe the public will be harmed If licensing is required yes. what do you what do you think this this changes coming up now menu been real estate for a long time I mean what what do you think twenty eight years we've we've done it just fine with the. Licensing you know it. Building is through the roof we have a housing shortage it's almost like the toilet paper shortage that's where critical mass but that. This is being presented to. To help a few people out not have to have a licensed real estate agents you know my system is licensee does not sell homes but I have her give her real estate license because she's talking to my clients and our people I expect her to know what she's saying to those people can thank you. Represent a wooden one question please we really need to bring this in for a landing today. The. Thank members dismal pitchers my question is do you have any effects from other states this is everybody's gone sales since the permitted and what about the other ten exemptions that we have. So I do not have any facts about what is happening in other states we are not. Apples and oranges there I don't I don't know what happens in Oklahoma but I know this in Arkansas we protect the public and I want to keep that. Thank you Representative Richardson you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman so when you said the Representative so just asking if people would be heart in you as you said yes how are people going to be heard. Can you give me something specific because I keep hearing you know customer safety and looking out for the cut but I'm also hearing that these builders are training their people they're giving them the necessary tools to be successful so give me something concrete of how a person is going to be hurt if this person is not licensed to sell a product that their boss owns so it it worked and then as realtors we struggle it probably explain this because there's thousands of options but here's one off the top of my head when a parent is going to help their. Signed by their first home and pay the down payment they're excited whenever they go into a home any home really bills or first house They're talking about the house the colors and everything else that will sign whatever documents because they really want the home but no one's really talking to them about how they got a whole title and they're like what does that mean why why would I care to have a full time well you're gonna spend a hundred grand of the down payment for your son. Are you gonna hold title with your son is it right by entirety is it right by survivorship what if your son gets married next month in their local that's that was his inheritance I don't intend on giving the hundred grand and then he gets married next month and instantly the houses have this new girl that I don't even know so that's a simple example but somebody the licensed real estate agent needs to have that conversation there and it's really not about representation that's just human fairness have the conversation with someone to explain to them that hate these are some of the rules because they don't know those rules. Then right now we have licensed people in those homes and when we go to rouse Coleman we work with licensed people that understand some of the rules. And yes they have training on. All of their procedures the truth is when you pass your real estate exam then you get with a broker and you get to be trained on all of their procedures that's normal builders and I've done real estate for so long I do understand rascals procedures I do understand other builders procedures because that's what we sell. Thank you Representative flowers you're recognized for a question you're fine okay and Representative Murdock. Thank you chair and I have lived for a long time to the just trying not to say that Beyonce with you because of where the I am with this but let me say this this a little bit irritating if I can use that word. Is there is a section that you make that. People that make a choice. Without the intervention of a realtor would not be able to properly. Take care of themselves in that room you make an assumption. Eight that. Even who they're dealing with Brasco whomever I don't dealing with that they will do their due diligence is second in the two fifteen is what I call it. Individual study to show yourself approved under his or scriptural reference study to show yourself approved to know what you're talking about to understand your product is a scriptural reference. And sometimes that area people think they need somebody to tell them what to do. I understand what you're trying to say. I don't like the way you say. The board to allow us it's okay. I don't think is effective because it is almost Bills again is this options almost eight and you know a an attack on the competence of somebody's may live and can go by House have qualified is made it to this point and all of a sudden they're capacity goes away. Just to make that assumption you know let's stay on the school board may be some of those other arguments but that intuitive argument. Is not necessarily true because I'm an engineer. I can go in a row now and I can eat I can read. I know a contract I don't agreements are to what my rights are. Okay in other professions can do that or not professionals or not degree people you don't have to have a degree today so I just don't think that's a good strategy it out that heard it over and over again. And I think it hurts you more than it helps Arkansas. I apologize I certainly I'm not trying to. Insinuates that anyone can do it. I am very passionate about this I have spent my entire life trying to help. Pool buying sell homes new construction or not and I find myself with. Lots of people of all different class calibers doctors lawyers attorneys whatever That's my bus they ask for help I ask for their help when I needed. And and I know that they have questions about the real state contracts because they they need that that's that's what I'm there for. So no disrespect to any of any profession it's just when they choose that bill yeah they don't have to choose me absolutely not they do not have to change is not an indictment on you as a professional or the realtors association and what a real to do those aspects of one choice yes then you enter into that then provide that information that they're asking of you the doctor probably has the ability to do what you're doing if you chose to absolutely chose to go that route absolutely yeah I think I agree. Thank you represented. Seeing no further questions thank you very much will move now to the next Speaker for which is Mr Wingfield and I believe he will be using the last five minutes or less you're welcome to give useless please identify yourself for the record. Hello members my name is Keith Wingfield. I'm here to and for some of you that serve with my who I called uncle Gus Wingfield yes we are related if you remember him from politics from quite some time ago. I am the national area chairman for the national association of home builders. For Arkansas Louisiana and Mississippi I was around when we passed the licensing law here at the legislature and help. Passed that law in two thousand and one I think. So I think I can speak to a little bit about building I've made a few notes unfortunately on my phone here if you'll bear with me maybe that will help me stay track and and keep it short two to five minutes I'm from the Little Rock area grew up in Benton I grew up the son of an engineer in a part time builder and my grandfather was a carpenter and he taught me a lot about construction during that period of time I have also had a real estate license three different occasions once of a nineteen seventy seven when I had just graduated college added again in the mid eighties and then again in the two thousands until I realized that building was really what I wanted to do not be do real state but I am very familiar with their loss and and respect them want to say that this is not a rouse Coleman bill. It's a builder's bill I am a builder. And it's all builders we have voted unanimously as the Arkansas home builders association board of directors. it's an ownership interest bill to home builders we want to I want to be able to have my project manager sit in an open house on a Sunday afternoon if you would so chooses and I want to be able to compensate him for that he's my employee and I'm paying for what he does during the week but when when he goes out and takes up this Sunday and we works I wanted to represent me my building company and and that's not to say that we don't have some type of consumer protection as a licensed entity in the state of Arkansas there is a very strong law that requires us to have ethical standards as well and and I would sit that would suggests the realtors appoint themselves with that law many consumer protections in the licensing law and I can also tell you the question earlier that there are home builders that have lost their license or at least been fined and censured because of consumer complaints it's an easy process you don't require an attorney to make a copy a complaint against a building entity and I see it very plainly my wife serves on the contractor licensing board and so I know for a fact that that does happen. Our national association of home builders an hour Arkansas home homebuilders association have a strong ethical standards as well much like the realtors association we are trained and knowledgeable on fair housing we have extensive knowledge in it and I would suggest that anybody would like to see you can go to it in a H. B. dot org on the worldwide web in a H. B. dot org and you can see a lot of information about our professionalism in this industry. What we're warning as builders to be able to use our contracts that protect my company from unfair litigation so. Rather than be forced to to use the realtors contract which I might comment on I respect Mr grooms very much so for the way he writes a contract when I started in nineteen seventy seven a contract was front and back. Offer and acceptance now fourteen pages it lists certain things like lead based paint in new construction I haven't made lead based paint since nineteen seventy eight why should I need to certify that. we've also not been reached out to bother realtors association we work normally hand in hand with them we did approach them early on and so we haven't had any compromise discussions at all and we're certainly listening. There are ten current exemptions in this law and I can speak to I'm not done your time is up I'm sorry that's okay but we can take questions I understand embers any questions for this witness definitive Ferguson. Richardson I'm sorry. Did just for clarity that I hear you say that you guys have reached out to the realtors and they've not met with you we reached out to them and we met with them actually we even had a round table discussion through the as soon call but nothing has come back and that was prior to this bill being actually filed okay so you have been met with him since the bill has been filed. Thank you. Okay members any other questions. Thank you very much for your testimony thank you very much okay and believe the last Speaker is Mr Overton with the Arkansas Bar Association. If you identify yourself for the record and you have five minutes. A little bit less than five minutes of less than five minutes little bit less how much because I got about Taimur totaling over. Four fifty two or something like that. Other four forty five so I don't know okay. Thank you blaze gentleman members the committee But I testified before on this bill and just as a refresher my name's don Overton I'm a builder. A developer and an attorney the former chair of the construction law section for the Arkansas Bar former chair for the real estate section for the Arkansas bar on the current chair of the business law section The board and I'm here today on behalf of our sensation. has I stated last time and this bill attempts to overturn more than about forty years worth of of law in Arkansas that goes back to nineteen eighty one decision the Arkansas Supreme Court which granted. The real estate commission to have licensees to be able to practice a very limited scope of law without a without a law license this most of you know to get a law license have to have a four year college degree and in three years of law school and then take a three day test that's to become a. An attorney and you're still not ready to to drive a NASCAR race. To use the previous person's thing on that so. The bar association as opposed to this bill as it as it's written because the fact that it throws away for your fourth law there's no education requirements in this bill there is no regulation there's no oversight. it we believe it will open it up to the wild wild west A couple of points. to begin with I didn't receive a copy of the Friday firms letter until I heard about it or when I was in the other room I think most of you have that if you look at paragraph two. on the next to last page. I have to say that that that the board agrees with that assessment where it says principles of agency law that a plaque build every state real estate commission is not have the authority imposing requirements restrictions on a transaction that is defined as exempt. In other words state agency lacks authority to impose any requirements or restrictions on transactions outside the jurisdiction that that is exactly what I just said. This bill following in in with the language for the body firm will exempt any of these transactions from any enforcement or oversight for the real estate commission. That's the very same commission that was granted that very limited scope to be able to oversee the practice of law by non attorney in a very limited scope represented wouldn't ask me last time I was here about the ten exemptions. And I apologize for not having those brought brought in today. So real quickly there are ten exemptions two of those exemption five and six reporter leases so that that has nothing to for talking about today. Exemption seven refers to the government that's that's the or talking about today exemption eight refers to a multiple listing service that's not applicable what we're doing today. And so that leaves us with three exemptions. That would be. Something that this bill would be similar to so exemption one. Refers to an owner that's an individual owner or corporate owner selling their own properties only one individual thing. Number nine. Goes into corporations. But. It is for an officer director owner not a shoe salesman. Number ten is. A business that is not. Dealing with the ownership or accusation a real estate this bill. Goes against that one because it's saying that that entity who is in the the the the. Business of buying real estate building a home and selling it will be exempt and so that's why I believe that those don't apply and. The last thing because I'm running out of time. Was. The issue of a product there's good comments that the the rows Coleman sells the same product over and over again what every home builder sells the same product over and over again in every home buyer buys the same product over and over again the buying home the by the single single largest investment they'll ever make in their life and they need to be protected and this bill goes against that protection which is in place to protect the poor the uneducated in the store at home builder from making a mistake. In that purchase all right thank you very much of Representative Boyd and then Representative would. Thank you Mr chair I'm I'm just I keep hearing this however many years of law and. Just help me understand in our current state constitution. Whose job is it to make law is that the legislative branch the executive branch or the courts and so if it's what I think and confirm if I'm wrong that is the legislative branch. What what exactly problem the week because by the legislative branch doing its job of this act I'm trying to decide whether this is smoke or whether this is a real issue that's really going to affect something because I keep hearing it over and over and so it could you is an attorney could you really help me understand that issue yes event may So as we all know the. The legislature's job is to create all that that that's that's that's of a given what we all know that there we've had an issue on the federal level and sometimes on the state level with judicial over reach where we have active jurist to try to create law from the bench as an attorney I don't agree with that that's that's another discussion for another day the point on that is that this law has been in place for forty years for four decades. and it's worked well for four decades and I'm not saying that the legislature cannot create new law but. I'm cautioning the legislature that if they are going to create new law that goes in in the face of for decades worth of law then there should be a public policy argument in a public policy standard that supports the legislature making that new law other than it'll say Brown Coleman money or other then it makes it easier for a for a business. To to not have to go through the hoops of getting their people trained and educated on how to do transaction that is going to protect the poor the uneducated the story out you know I have this conversation as an attorney I've been trying for. More than a decade and I have this with clients and the girl that lost crazy and I'll go will you know the or the Arkansas legislature historically when they create laws they created to protect children to protect mama to protect the family and then to protect business in normally in that order I don't believe this bill follows that hierarchy of of order of protection I believe that it it skips over children mom and family go straight to protect the business. Does that answer your question thank you. Thank you Representative will. Okay Mister thank you Mister would you one question please. Question. I didn't ask who. I ask were there exemptions and there are teams yes and are they not exempted from the control of the real estate commission all the rules and regulations. Yes they are they are they are exempt yes for those ten except make a difference who it is. The patterns been said that there are ten exception is that correct that is correct thank you Mr thank you represented Penzo. I make this quicker there is a scenario laid out earlier that a person could have peace land build fifty homes on it I just wanna clarify contractor license law that the just an unlicensed individual can't go out build fifty houses to sale. Would that be accurate statement. I believe that I'm not a. An attorney for the contractor licensing board but I believe that the that the statute allows you to buy to to build your own personal residence and sell it and I think it would be difficult for someone to make the case that they built fifty personal residences in a two five or ten year. Your time right because that is an exemption in contractor license law that you can build your own home just like it is in in real estate license law that you can sell your own home as an individual I believe that the exception is that you can pull your own permit and act as your own general contractor however you cannot do mechanical electrical plumbing or any other sub trade that requires another license issued by the state of Arkansas thank you. Thank you represent within your Mike is still on. Yes thank you Representative ray. Thank you Mr I'm glad you're here because I have a question that would be beneficial to get an answer from a lawyer on okay the the from other the first exemption is to allow people individuals. And companies to sell their own property. The company is obviously in most cases made up of more than one person. Why is an employee of a company not considered part of the company it seems like it would be a logical extension. Of the company. Can is that the question that's the question if you look at sub paragraph D. of that exception it says in the case of a corporation limited liability company limited partnership or other entity you're recognized by law intending to acquire freehold or leasehold interest in real estate a member manager partner up or officer who has the authority to make management decisions affecting the overall policy the entity that that's what it says so it it makes a delineation that it has to be a person who is a member manager partner officer who has the authority to make management decisions affecting the overall policy the entity a shoe salesman doesn't have that that authority I built. I was here when they made that exception but from a legal aspect it appears that the the public policy argument or the intent of that subsection was that it had to be someone who had skin in the game someone who was an officer owner director someone who had a fiduciary duty to that company someone who had a heightened level of responsibility as opposed to a. Commission only sales person who. You know is an at will employee that can be gone tomorrow. That thank you let me move on to the next represented flowers. So based on that. Answer. If the language was X. if the land through language extended. Responsibility to that sales person as a part of. The entity then would the consumer protection or a fair housing laws that apply. To their decision making and their role in that sale. So I believe there housing laws applies to everybody I don't I don't believe that there's there's a car about or exceptional on consumer protection or fair housing laws so those are federal so if this law passed follow up for sure so this law passed then are you saying that the exception would make it so that that fair housing laws would apply to the sales person. And people would be. Covered. People would be protected people would be protected under fair housing laws and under consumer protection laws but there are a lot of other issues that come up. Or that there's a lot of other issues that could possibly come up with the purchase of a home that don't fall under about fair housing and don't fall specifically under consumer protection and as was brought up earlier. Am I mean I'm an attorney and and I don't mind going to court but in Pulaski County if a policy today. It might be VOL twenty twenty one before I get in front of the judge. For. For a hearing depending on which judge it is and how. Back to the docket is it could be twenty twenty two before I get a trial currently there's no jury trials because of of all the code stuff so that's out of the question for sure so what is that what is that home purchaser gonna do for the next two years if they buy a home and and can't live in it and I'm not saying that that's gonna happen but you're asking that the hypothetical of do they have protection and so I'm taking a hypothetical to the extreme as if we're going to discuss that issue if that happened and you're trying to do that what is what's what's going to happen for those two years and I'm not saying that you can't that that's not a similar situation with the realtor currently except for the fact that they can file a complaint with the real estate commission and if something was done wrong they could lose their license or be centered or something and so that the the threat of punishment as we all know it is a bigger deterrent for most bad action then the actual punishment because a lot of people you know. I'm not gonna go eighty on six thirty driving home because I know that speed limit sixteen probably going to get a ticket and I want to pay a three dollar ticket to get home two minutes earlier okay so the threat of the threat of punishment is enough to stop me from getting a ticket as opposed to me getting a ticket that answer your question yes thank thank you. Indifference to. Be unfairly cutting off Representative Alan awhile ago represented Allen do you have a question that that you would like to give to this to the Bar Association and it could be linked to fair housing because I know that was your interest. no no service thank you Mr chairman okay so gender storm all right thank you any any other questions. If not all the excuses witness thank you and we are now ready for a close Representative bond. Thank you ladies and gentlemen thank you John. Thank you Mr chairman thank you Committee. I will try to just highlight just a few things that were said there's nothing in the bill that changes anything about the fair housing it's still done by the fair housing commission and hood just like it is done right now just so you know and even with the passage of this bill this bill still will have an executive broker used so they're not get rid of an executive broker they'll still be one used and. Just because something's been done a certain way for forty years we all know we change laws it's been around for forty years every time we're in session so just because something's been around for forty years doesn't mean that we haven't evolved as people during that time and that it can't be looked at to be changed. If a company did something as despairing as some of the things that's been said I'm pretty sure that that company would probably go broke just from the fact that it gets around people doing dirty business so I'm pretty sure that that would protect consumers in itself but these builders they do have warranties so they have a two year ten home warranty a one year workmanship warranty it to your system warranty and a ten year structural warranty so that does protect the consumer. And. that is okay I'm not a hundred percent sure but I don't remember my mom saying that is hers a realtor that she warranties a home that she sales. I don't never remember and my mom's a realtor and but this company just as I said they do warrant do warranties on their homes are at now. With that said I understand I totally understand when we go play on someone else's plate being in how they get offended or worried or They don't understand people not want us to Tinker with their businesses. and I and I totally understand per Representative Penzo is coming from whatever he's against the bill I totally get it I understand his hesitation my mom and dad are both realtors my dad as an auctioneer. My mom said she can see nothing wrong with this bill. That was straight from her mouth I let her see the bill let her read the bill my mom is good with the bill and she's a realtor do you think I would actually do something to hurt my mama. I mean I would not do nothing to hurt my mom Oxford for love nor money wouldn't matter. And my final comment is. Yes I do believe in the policy but I understand if you don't all right I get that and I would never hold anybody's vote against them ever that's just not who I am. My last comment is yesterday we took a vote on the house floor. Four we gave car salesman's the rat to not have licenses anymore to sell cars and with that I would appreciate a good vote. Thank you Representative. At this point I'll entertain a motion. Rep represented wooden motion of do pass. Okay before we go to vote is there discussion. Representative Penzo then represent of Clowney. Thank you Mister you knew that I would have some input I just want to touch on a few things in that closing statement and in Arkansas new construction homes there is mention of realtors provide more trees we don't do that the new construction more these are by law I believe have to be for a twelve month and if not there's like an implied warranty by state law let's see executive brokers are still going to be used at rush Coleman that's a violation if she ever an executive brokers overseeing unlicensed salespeople that's probably a violation of a license what have to check on that and there's no guarantee that other companies are going to use the licensed brokers so they're they're doing that so they can still put their listings on the MLS I'm assuming There is also the Northwest Arkansas home builders at the time I made the comment during the last discussion the home builders association of northwest Arkansas had voted not to support this they did turn around and came out supported so I just want to clarify that I had made that statement before that was accurate at the time I made the statement One of the problems I had that was a comment was made back when of the rascal and Representative was first sitting at a table was they had a problem with client or employee retention you know the statement was made that they pay for their employees to get licenses and then they leave for remax I believe is the company said they left for that's that's not our problem we're not here to legislate of protection this bill so corporation can maintain Keep their employees from leaving and going to a better opportunity they stated they wanted to pay better rates but yet employees are still. Hemorrhaging to other companies if if if this is removed does it not allow that corporation to keep their thumb on their employees their opportunities to leave without a license or or limited so may not these these are some of the problems I had with some of the statements have been made they they also made the comment that several employees couldn't pass a real estate exam I personally would like to see the bar a little higher FOR for obtaining a real estate license there's disagreements on that within the real estate community but there there is a bar there and and this this would allow that bar to be completely removed this didn't you know. The owner of the company can still sells real estate when you bring in a third party they're acting as a sales agent for that company so mean this this is not I mean. Anyway I'll move on new construction is not listed in this bill it doesn't state anywhere in here that this is limited to new construction I know there's some amendments made to it to to to sugar coated little bit but it's I still do not think this is a a good piece of legislation and I would you know I I have an analogy we are all used to scope of practice issues this is like the C. R. in a bill we've got anesthesiologist or nurse anesthetists that are discussing you know the the how they practice within the field of anesthesia okay. This is like a this is like a doctor come in in a GP and say my receptionist is going to provide Anastasia I don't need the anesthesiologist or the nurse anesthetist because this is a scope of practice issue between. Between. Attorneys like the Borsa Association light out this is a scope of practice issue between attorneys and realtors it's been of the Supreme Court I mean this is this is us a law scope of practice issue has nothing to do with construction they're they're talking about playing in the the same sandboxes is someone else's sandbox or going to the neighbor sandbox it's not even two kids playing the same same box which is like the nursing as the system the. The in anesthesia world I mean it's it's a totally different realm I mean and that's why I was bringing up the exemptions from contractor's license I'm sure every contractor out there thinks that everybody to build the house. Should have a contractor's license I mean there's there's certain rights that are allowed for you know personal property owners that's what personal property owner can sell their own real estate that's what personal property owner can build their own real estate it did the issue is when you bring in a third party into the. Into the equation that's when the real estate commission the contractors licensing board oversee those things thank you thank you thank you represent represent Clowney. Thank you Mr chair I'll be quick I'm a no on this and they're at I wish I could have gotten there on this bill but I can't I'm not going to add to the reasons why but what I do want to say what I do want to add to this discussion is Representative out we saw you come last week before us and we expressed concerns and I saw you listen to those concerns take them and try to work with them and I'm frustrated right now because I feel like you are met halfway and that doesn't feel right to me and also frustrated to hear what you share at the beginning of your testimony today because as your colleague and as your friend I know that you are a person of integrity and so when I vote no I want to make it really clear that any tactics that by folks that would question the integrity of our colleagues when it is somebody like Representative Vaught would push me toward voting for this bill I wish that I could have gotten there I couldn't today but I appreciate all the work you put into. Thank you Representative any other comments by members. Seeing none. We have a more. I have a motion to pass on the floor all those in favor of do pass for this bill signify by saying aye. All those opposed say no no. Roll call Mr well let me make the call first I rule in favor of the bill. Local. Dressy to Hans. Represented Penzo represent a Ferguson or there's the two hands the correct okay roll call on on this bill eleven sixty five. Representative Murdock. Representative fielding of. Representative Deborah Ferguson. Representative Hodges. Representative Hodges. Representative Lundstrum. Representative Kenneth Ferguson. Represent Kenneth Ferguson. Representative Boyd. Representative flowers. Representative brown yes. Representative Alan. Representative Gazaway. Representative Gazaway. Representative Pilkington. Representative Pilkington. Representative Penzo though. Representative wooden yes. Representative Clowney. Representative Clowney. Representative Richardson. Representative Richardson. Representative rank. Representative Evans. Representative Evans. Representative of our broad term sorry your bill failed to pass. Right members thank you so much for your patience in a five way short with you I apologize and and can give you that apology in person if you would like it we are insurance. Degree. The.