Transportation, Technology & Legislative Affairs - Senate

This bill suggests that because of their religious obligor objection to a photo or a graven image this would allow them along with. Our communities and thirteen other states that have issued driver's licences and photo ID's without a photograph of the person would be I have a description on their card. Voto I if they want to vote and many of this population does not participate in voting in government and so on but if they wanted to do that they would need a photo ID to vote and they would need a photo ID if they wanted to do the federal ID real ID card so those two things are exempt from being able to use this no photo IDE and Roberts license card for the state police has supported this because it strengthens actually the current bill and requires a written affidavit stating stating that they have a religious objection to having their photo on a driver's license of the police chiefs association and the alcohol beverage control board do not oppose this bill and again this population in my district and I think there are other areas of our state they have a K. through eight school they have a church congregation they have a number of businesses that they own and operate a builder like transients plumbers farmers restaurant owners furniture store owners and different things on their great neighbors and friends and I will take any questions that you might have concerning this bill. Questions from the committee. Senator English so thank you very much did you say that the they would be exempt from the federal idea many almost can't get on point if you don't have that is the this would exempt them from that or they wouldn't be able to get one of those. If they want the federal ID they would have to do all of the requirements for the federal ID right okay. Senator Senator Pitsch thank you chairman in this world we make laws for everybody and I applaud what you're doing for that segment I question are we making it tough enough that someone else might trying to follow that same path for Rooney as reasons in other words is it easy to get an ID without photo are they required to show like normally you have to show social security or something along that lines have we made it so it's a tougher obligation to give that not the survey because we want to make it tougher for them. But we don't want somebody to misuse our system because we make a law for this population we make it for the entire population I make sense what I'm saying absolutely I understand and at least from the research done in the thirteen other states fraud is very rare this kind of takes this to a higher level from the the state police saying that a written affidavit and they would have to come to little rock to verify that that they have a religious objections so that actually is a stronger word staff for requirement that is currently required to have a no photo ID. Senator garner in center hill. A couple questions first so do you have been a is already doing this in violation of law I'm sorry do you have a nays are doing this in violation of state law. No the current law does say that there is a religious Exemption. So we had a current will it is so what when you when you read the bill you can see that it the religious beliefs this adds the licensee's sincerely held religious beliefs is the new wording that prohibits an individual having his or her photo taken yes ma'am I read the bill thanks for calling all. Okay fair enough. So this would make it harder workwear with words of the speech security that they would have come to little rock on that part he said is that just something that'll put a policy in place because yes good question on the second page line five the licensee signs an affidavits attesting to his or her sincerely held religious beliefs that prohibits them from having their photograph taken yes ma'am but where's the. Requirement they come to little rock for the stronger protections that was just the state police say and that's where the process that they would have to do it that that would not be available at every S. assessment office or DMV office in the State. But we're not going to find that that's just on your policy by the correct please. Senator back later but go ahead and make a comment person have have a question of it I actually feel like doing this we're opening ourselves up because anyone can claim a religious belief we can have a terrorist they claim the religious beliefs they don't want a photograph out there I think we're open ourselves up with this group right here the title you're trying to help my I think it's a natural thing to do but I feel like we're open herself up for bigger broader problems in the future the my question on this is going to go back to the we were talking earlier at a bank to open up an account or get along with the patriot act you must prove to your in that boat allowed the second proof yes so they're not billable account with this driver's license without a photo ID. With bill to prove who you are. So my question is how are you going to overcome that. Well my understanding it from the lawyers that the city attorneys they were suggesting that they would be able to use the driver's license because the bank really requires a driver's license in terms of photo ID they also usually take along with them all the other documents that we normally take with us when we go to the DMV their birth certificate and a number of different documents there residency proof of residency and things like that. And you know I I do understand what you're saying in terms of religious beliefs you know held other states have often required a security question that only the holder of the car knows the answer to or they require a letter from a church elder or on. of the congregation stating their member of that particular congregation the three largest states of the thirteen R. Ohio Pennsylvania and Indiana that have this exemption for them. Go ahead Senator Hill. For any of our surrounding states do they do it a Texas Oklahoma Missouri not that I'm aware of thank you there is a growing population in Oklahoma on the northeast side kind of on the border there with the Northwest Arkansas down to Cincinnati in and to. Van Buren. Someone. I think in the north central part of Arkansas also into central Missouri is a growing population. Community. Chris McNeil with D. F. and ideas here the they want to come down to help clarification any question. I got a question motor motor is Senator Chesterfield and then I'll come back to you senator garner. Senator Chesterfield. Correct me if I'm wrong but we are they already have the opportunity to get a license without a program is that not right that's what the current bill does stinker the current bill the answer to a the current law allows you to hand the photograph but you are amending it to say the licensee series sincerely held religious beliefs so already codified in law is a license is valid without a photograph of the licensee when the Secretary advice is advised at the requirement of the photograph is either objectionable on the grounds of the licensee sincerely ill religious beliefs you have amended to add sincerely hail but the other part was already there is that correct that's correct okay. Senator garner what's the current process if I want to get a license without ID. And you know say ninety without a photo skews me yeah hi I'm Chris McNeil with the DFA. So. Under current law the. It's been well stated that this is very open ended and there is almost no guidance other than. The DFA name being advised that there is a religious objection. What this bill would do is. Strengthen what would be required from such an applicant so now they had they would have to provide an affidavit or this specifically identified IRS form. If somebody if if such an applicant were to falsely make such a statement there would be potential criminal liability there which is not present now I will also point out that you can interrupt you what's the current process of tomorrow I'm going to go get a license without ID on it if I was one of this community without a photo on excuse me what would I have to do to do that because it sounds like it's or existing law and people are doing it what's the process to do it Suez at the present an applicant can go to any one of our revenue offices and have this done if they were to simply make an oral statement that they have a religious objection under current law it is not clear to the DFA that we could. Tell them now What this bill would do you would give us at least some baseline upon which we could require evidence It would not only require a sworn statement but it would also require not just a religious objection but a sincerely held one which is. A legal standard that. Federal courts have been making more and more precise for decades now. Yeah I mean I can go back to my first amendment. Clason Law School and understand that it they're sincerely believe but. All right so current law this is that the commissioner who's now the secretary may issue this once they're given guidance so I sound like a counter Nicks the idea can go to any office you get this ID with that unless there's procedure put out by the if in a way that is allowable at each office I mean that's what the current lowly license may be valid if the secretary commissioner is a buys at the requirements of the photos either objection on the grounds so currently it sounds like there could be additional. Regulation put on it under the current law now I understand the penalty for I think you're correct on because we don't signed affidavit you can't do the penalties but. I don't know if I hold I believe that you can go to any office and do that if you have to advise the commissioner that it has to be done. So this language of advising the the Secretary formerly Commissioner generally we read that to mean the D. F. and a as a whole being that the the secretary is the head of the. Of the DFA so that would include each of our revenue offices at this time your term for endorsement. General questions from members. So. House I'll make a statement that I feel like this this makes our current law. The have more more of a standard for this the this possibility for getting a license no objections to license without a photograph but the. The this makes it stronger than what we have in a long now is my perception in this is that is that true. That is what I've been told as well. User I mean that's what I've heard from testimony from the F. and I is that correct yes correct and from the state police Commissioner and I would also add that I think this is important for this committee to be advised of that. For more than thirty years now the eighth circuit court of appeals has required that an otherwise qualified applicant be afforded the opportunity to be provided an identification card without a photograph so. This is something we would have to do anyway under under federal first amendment law This bill as as we've said several times this is this does strengthen that current standard which at this point. Is very un guided for us it puts us in the position that we don't want to be put in where we're having to essentially adjudicate the sincerity of people's beliefs thank you very much. I'm sorry your not done to you just raise the concern that county mayor senator garner's comments. We're making it tougher it's already a federal law you mentioned the levels. What are we doing something here then that's going to get us drug back into a court case that we have changed the difficulty of what's afforded to the citizen by by federal law. So the the case I'm referring to which goes back to nineteen eighty four began in Nebraska. And essentially what would be required on such an affidavit. Mears what the proof was offered in that case so sincerely held religious belief is simply what the standard was that's the eighth circuit hello so I don't believe we're adding more than what is required. Or or what we would be required to deal. A better way of of maybe putting it is that we don't require it we require less now than. the circuit then was proved in that case. So does this get us in follow up with does this get us into an exact parallel then with each circuit's ruling I mean are we doing case lawyer by writing this statute I hesitate to say it without any qualification but substantially yes crime. Any other questions for members. Saying nine What will the committee. Do pass by Senator English. S. the second by Senator Chesterfield all in favor say aye. All opposed Like sign. Thank you representatives. Thank you for coming. The Our next bill thirteen fifty five has been pulled for Amendment so Is there anything else to come before the committee saying nine. The we're adjourned appreciate everybody coming.