ALC-Game & Fish/State Police
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Unknown speaker
0:30
- I don't know if anyone can see that.
Speaker 23
2:00
Committee members, if you would, go ahead and find your
seat. We'll get started here in about one minute.
Speaker 6
3:30
Yeah, I didn't have a lobster today. I lost a roll. They're more expensive than
Speaker 32
3:36
Connecticut. Oh, terrible. Well, I'm not going to say it. I'm
Speaker 11
5:13
you.
committee members the chair says a quorum this meeting is called to order uh co-chair you have
any comments before we get started yeah thank you so much
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
6:05
mr chair just a
couple different things um today i know we are focusing on um primarily the state police um however as i think you'll indicate here in a minute but the game and fish is still is here as well um i just want to announce august 23rd the hall of fame banquet it will occur here i believe in little rock and so uh that's going to be held by the arkansas game and fish foundation so just inviting those folks it's a great event to attend uh we love going every year so the hall
of fame banquet will be august 23rd um and then the last thing i would say tomorrow morning i hope you'll be here in a vote for the motion i've worked with the chairs of alc and we will i will be presenting a motion tomorrow morning for this subcommittee to have the opportunity to meet off-site and to meet outside of alc week but to have really a intensive study about flooding issues and potential that the potential of flooding and all the different kinds of emergency responses
around those issues we are not meeting about it today but we are planning those meetings and tomorrow we will have a motion before alc that really talks about this subcommittee moving into a very intensive study on that issue so i hope you'll support that motion tomorrow morning and that's it thank you thank you senator for those
comments committee members if you're looking at at the agenda, you'll see that the next item on today's
agenda is the Arkansas State Police.
However, before we get to the State Police, I want to recognize a couple of individuals that are guests here today that's not on the agenda, and if you would, I'd kind of catch you off guard, but if you come to the table, the Director of the Game and Fish, I believe you're in the attendance, and also, if you would bring with you, your Colonel, I believe it's Colonel Joe Williams gentlemen I didn't mean to put you on the spot but I thought since you
were here in the room it'd be good to come to the table and just kind of introduce yourselves for the committee and you know we're not going to keep you at the table very long because we do have a state police up next on the agenda but want to give the committee members any opportunities or are you an opportunity to address this committee? So if you would, just identify yourself to the committee. Just hit your butt.
Speaker 44
8:45
Apologize. My name is Doug Schoenrock. I'm the director of Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. I don't have any business to bring before the committee
other than to gleefully introduce our new lieutenant colonel, Joe Williams. I'm
Speaker 45
8:58
lieutenant colonel Joe Williams. Started this job on Thursday, so glad to be before you. Well, I'll
tell you, is Lieutenant Colonel Williams? Yes, sir. I will not forget your name because I see Colonel Hager in the back, and I had a trooper that worked for me for years and years from Independence County,
and I was with him about every day, and the colonel will remember this. His name was Joe Williams. I watched him on the real stories of the highway patrol. Yes, that's him, and we'll just leave it at that. So anyways, he was a good guy, good trooper. So committee members, anybody got any questions for the Game
and Fish? Senator, you're recognized. I do think
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
9:46
it is important to highlight what you were just recently involved with in helping the state of Arkansas, if you don't mind sharing, which has affected my area.
Speaker 45
9:57
Are you referring to the Calico Rock incident? Yes. I would say that we had a gentleman move into Calico Rock. I wouldn't describe him completely as a sovereign citizen, but certainly has a lot of similar sentiments. But he decided to show up one Friday afternoon at our Calico Rock Game and Fish office, and he had leased to own, rent to own, a piece of property behind the Game and Fish office. And because it was a parking lot there, he decided that would be the best driveway to use.
And so long story short is that some of the staff had a conversation with him and said, hey, this isn't an easement. You know, we don't mind you cutting through here. And it turned into a pretty big ordeal. He took to Facebook Live to let us know that the state of Arkansas was trashing us and stomping on his rights. And so we had some conversations. We put some signage up. We tried to put some barriers in place to get him to go another route. But long story short, it come down to some pretty intense moments on Facebook against the state of Arkansas.
And so, again, the employees of the Game and Fish, the staff there, they did an amazing job, somebody that was not very nice at all to public employees. And that sense has been remedied, and he has found him
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
11:14
another way to go to his property. Yeah, I just wanted to tell you guys, you handled it so well.
You really handled that so well. And I just hate that, you know, some people are just ugly, you know, to our folks that are in law enforcement and in public service. And you just did a great job. And I just really appreciate you personally working with me on that difficult situation.
But and thank you and thank everybody there in Calico because they're so good at what they do. So, you know, it's just important for us to recognize the people that put themselves into those positions in public service and law enforcement. you know don't have an easy job and there are some days where they just get attacked and either personally but also you know on social media so you just did a fabulous job handling that so we're really excited to have you in your position for the state thank you senator gentlemen saying
no questions from committee members thank you for I didn't mean to catch
you off guard but thank you for coming to the table and we'll look forward to seeing you in the future next up on today's agenda is an overview by the Arkansas State Police Community Outreach if you would Colonel this who you want to bring will you to the table I don't get to see you
again we all know you but if you would go ahead and identify yourself for the record good afternoon mr. chair my name is Mike
Mike Hager
Unverified
12:44
Hager I'm secretary Department of Public Safety and director
of state police okay we have you on the agenda today to do an overview of the
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
13:02
Arkansas State community outreach so no pressure there no I'm sorry I don't know why I'm losing my voice but just want to touch base on a couple of things real quick that we're currently working on the biggest item for us that we've kind of started the process of
working with the community on is we're we're doing some mass violence meetings in preparation unfortunately for the event that we encounter something like that again in our state back there were several different mass fatality shootings that happen across the country and our communications director and I were in the car one day and we were listening I believe it was at Florida State the the mass shooting that they had there and we were talking about kind of some lessons learned from the past of things that we've dealt with and unfortunately
watching other incidents that have taken place around the country and what they did right what they did wrong and some things that we thought maybe we need to try to be more proactive about and try to get ahead of. So we worked with the Department of Education and Secretary Oliva and his director of, I'm not sure what his exact title is, but he's basically tasked with school safety. And we went and met with the secretary and with Jerry Kiefer,
and we talked about basically where we are as a state and being prepared to deal with a situation like that. One thing is you know from your years in law enforcement, we've all been to a lot of training, not just law enforcement, but stakeholders in the community. We've learned to deal with how we've been to classes, we've done preparation. As I say, we've all got a binder somewhere sitting on our shelf about what it would look like if we had an event like that happen.
Unfortunately, that's a very high risk and a very low-frequency event, which is good, But what's bad about that is that we're typically not prepared and we kind of get caught flat-footed when that does happen. So we wanted to just be a little bit more proactive, get groups together, kind of stakeholders together. So we had our first meeting a couple of weeks ago in Russellville. We had a little over 100 people in attendance. Those people, they represented the schools, the hospitals, local businesses, the Coroner's Association,
office of emergency management just anybody that you can think of that may possibly be involved in a situation like this statistically school shootings have moved down to number three when you think of active shooter events mass mass casualty events they've been passed by open markets entertainment districts things like that so it's it's almost impossible to try to guess you know where well where i hope we do not respond to in a mass casualty event but we try to get as
many people in the room as possible our communications team did a great job they put a page together and a link that is basically a one-stop shop for all of our partners in these communities and it's a link that they can bookmark in their phone and it has every resource available in there from state police from the department of public safety even from the private sector whether that be red cross or the arkansas community foundation you know things like that
that you don't think of so we learned our own hard lessons at fordice when we had that shooting last year when sheriff canadal and i talked on the phone i didn't know what that it was it was literally happening as we spoke i was in a meeting in hot springs and somebody stepped in and said that they were dealing with the mass casualty event in Fordyce we didn't really know all the details so I stepped out and I called the sheriff and just asked what he had and how bad it was and he said it's bad and I need all the help you can give me so we left went down to Fordyce I made
contact with the sheriff at that time I didn't know that he was actually involved in the shooting he had a lot of resources that were tied up because of that both from the sheriff's department the police department and well and he's been attending these meetings with us and we'll tell you that as prepared as they thought they were, they realized that they weren't. And there was so much that once the problem was solved and the shooting was over with, the fallout after the fact is significant and the response is significant. So we were able to offer him assistance with
communications, with dealing with the media, also of course investigative support, highway patrol support they effectively lost the majority of their ability to patrol that county in that city because they had so many officers that were involved in the situation so like things for me that i would fully expect to send a large number of criminal investigators there to work that scene and process you know the information after the fact what we did not expect was that we also took on a patrol responsibility to answer their calls for service because they had lost so many officers
that were engaged and had to be off work administratively for a certain amount of time and the wellness aspect after the fact for them. So we all learned a lot of lessons that day. We learned that we do need to be more prepared. We need to have a template in place. And the biggest thing is we need to talk to our state coders and let them know that there are resources available. As you well know, state police is an assisting agency, and I think people typically think of that for investigative support or highway patrol support, but that also comes with communication support,
media relations, wellness support after the fact. There's a lot of different aspects that people don't think about. It's good and bad. We've all experienced natural disasters where you have a large influx of volunteers and Arkansans are just good people and they want to help. And a lot of times the way that they know to help is to open their wallet and contribute and make financial donations. In Fordyce, I don't know the exact number, the sheriff said that in a matter of 24 to 48 hours,
there were multiple different bank accounts that had been opened. There was like two different banks. There was a lot of money coming into all those banks, but there was no coordination to actually help the victims out. There was no coordination on the money that was going out, how you could spend it. As Jessica Ford from the Community Foundation has told us in these meetings that we're doing, it's very easy to raise money, but it's very difficult to spend money because of the red tape that's involved.
But that's exactly what the Community Foundation does. They come in and they coordinate those things. So she's also been attending these meetings with us. We also did a meeting in Camden as well and had a little over $100 at that event, too. And again, everything from law enforcement to schools, hospitals, just about everybody you can imagine that has participated in these. We're going to try to do one in every section of the state, probably a total of five or six, maybe one in the central Arkansas area.
But also trying to concentrate more specifically on the rural areas that are more likely to need those resources. So we're going to try to do an event similar to this in all four corners of the state as well as central Arkansas just to make those resources available and kind of get people thinking along those lines of, if you do have this event, these are things that you need to be thinking about now to be prepared for so we're not caught so flat-footed when that day actually comes, Lord forbid. It's like I've told them, I hope it's the biggest waste of two hours that they ever have
sitting through this presentation and talking about these resources because I pray that they never need
them. So thank you, Colonel, for the for the overview. And I I'm glad it's very encouraging to hear that, you know, you are being proactive with this situation. And if you'll remember, and I know you do, because we were together at that time back in the late 90s when state police, when we actually started a program called, you know, a community outreach program. But the way we approached that program, if you remember, and I'm glad to see the role you're taking here, was that we actually, it was like a post-active program.
In other words, when we had a situation in that community or in a town that was a high-incidence situation, you know, after we got it resolved, Then we went door to door in those communities, just reassuring the people that everything was okay and leaving our cards and information that if they needed anything, that, you know, we were a phone call away just to kind of help put their minds back at ease that, you know, after that incident was over with, that they could be reassured that their law enforcement was going to be there if they needed us.
So I think you just, by what you're saying, is you're putting the other touch to that by being proactive, where in the past we were always, like I said, post-active. So I'm glad to hear you share that with the committee. So is there any, in regards to this particular item, what the colonel has just discussed, is there any questions in regards to this before we get into the next item on the agenda? Question.
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
22:44
Co-chair. just quickly I think what you're also referring well I very much appreciate that and I think
there's got to be that higher level of coordination just as you discussed and any one of us that have had to experience you know an officer that's killed in the line of duty unfortunately that's happened to me twice with stone county sheriff's department um that requires an incredible amount of coordination and outreach as well and so i want to thank you for always being there and being present um but i think also you know whatever that's another area of really important community
outreach when we have a fallen officer it's just that level of coordination the families are so overwhelmed and it was overwhelming for everyone just knowing you know that you were going to have all these law enforcement officers from the entire country fly in and the logistics and just anyway I think to me that's a whole nother it's like another level of what you're discussing too I mean I think it's so important with the mass casualty incidences and and that as well but when these things happen is another huge role of the state police in my opinion just witnessing it and
being through it now twice i think that's a whole nother area that y'all focus on and then the last thing i would just say is that i just really appreciate the individual officers who are taking it upon themselves to be involved in different community outreach just personally you posted i think something recently of an officer that was just sitting at lunch with a young kid and I just want us to remind us about these little things that are happening and those
highlights and how you've highlighted that I really appreciate that I think it's important for us as a legislature to to recognize those opportunities of mentorship and things that like that that are also happening not just in your capacity and role as a law enforcement officer in what you've already described but also as just a mentor and somebody there not just to arrest somebody but to really mentor you know particularly our juveniles and our youth so I just want to thank you about that and look forward to seeing more about
about those individual stories
like center center Johnson you have recognized for
Speaker 71
25:24
question with this mass casualty discussion there's something that you know over the last 10 years with the different protests and stuff that can lead to that that came to my mind sometime back the possibility of having
having designated protest areas that can be logistically handled by law enforcement in communities. Maybe that your department could help communities of a larger nature that those things happen in that could help communities have those designated areas, Whether by a resolution or ordinance or whatever, that whenever people join in large groups that they can be, you know, law enforcement can have some kind of containment rather than just on a sidewalk or something like that.
I think that would help contain some of those situations that could get into those circumstances. So just kind of something to think about while you're doing that outreach. Yes, sir. That's a great point. Senator Johnson, thank
you for the question. And to emphasize what the Cardinal said a while ago, Senator Johnson, there in your very own county, in Clay County,
I remember in 1972 when I was just a young trooper And the sheriff and three of his deputies, I believe it was three of them, they were all killed in a shootout there in Clay County, Senator Johnson, if you remember that. And state police, we were sent in, and I was sent in to stay there for a while. And we took all the calls, just like state police did in this situation that you're referring to. So I just applaud.
Obviously, the state police had a history of doing that. And like you emphasized on the front end, we are, State Police is an assisting agency by state law. And so I see no other questions from committee members in regards to this particular item. So, Colonel, at this time, let's move on to item D. And it's an update on the Devil Den's homicide investigation. And you and I have not talked about this, but I just want to say before you get started, So the committee members, and if I'm wrong, then you can correct me.
But I know a lot of the information that's involved in this investigation. You may be asked a lot of questions today that we're not privy to. And, you know, because at some point in time, the person that committed this crime has got to be brought to justice. And so the last thing we want to do is for you to share any information that in any way could jeopardize that investigation or cause any issues as far as when the individual is finally brought to trial.
So we understand that is what I'm saying. So if it's something you can't discuss with us, I just wanted to lay the groundwork for that, that I understand how that goes. and understand how sometimes how sensitive information is, especially in an investigation of this nature. I will say this before I turn it over to you, Colonel, that I'm sure like every member on this committee, I've had so many comments about state police and other law enforcement agencies
and their role involved in this investigation. And I'll just tell you, those comments, then they turn into compliments, just one right after another. So, you know, I applaud you before we get started. What a great job, and it just amazes me in such a short period of time and with the way we were able to bring everyone together and all the investigators and not just from the state police, but like I said, other agencies, and coordinate that effort with one mission in mind,
and that was to find the individual or individuals and make sure that, you know, they were brought to justice. So I'm always amazed, you know, how it all worked out. And I applaud law enforcement for another great job. I know technology has changed quite a bit since I was involved in it. But just the way you all handled that is just amazing.
And like I said, but we understand today if there's certain parts of the investigation that you are unable to, you know, to share with us. But with that in mind, you're recognized to give us an update
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
30:31
on the Devil Den's homicide case. Okay. Well, to echo your comments, I first need to say that I did nothing on this investigation other than just being kept informed. I have a certain amount of guilt about always being the
person that is standing at a podium or answering questions or talking about that because I feel like that the the true heroes in this the investigators that did the case work on this uh i i cannot say enough about them um just unbelievable police work and it was a combination of new technology and uh new investigative techniques and working hand in hand with as major rose put it old-fashioned police work and it was a combination of those two things that
It allowed them to make the arrests as quick as they did. You know, I know these guys. I know who they are. I know what their capabilities are, but you forget sometimes until you see a case like this playing out. There was a lot of national interest in this. And, of course, with that being the case, there was a lot of interest in the state from our governor on down through members of the legislature and received a lot of phone calls, had a lot of concern, a lot of questions that were asked. a lot of questions from the media and it's uh it's sometimes frustrating for us we want to
get more information we want to talk about more things and we want to put more out but at the same time we have to be very guarded about what we put out and make sure that we're not doing anything that's detrimental to the case so um i would love to stand on the highest mountain and scream the praises and talk specifically about what they did and i'm anxious for the day that um all the details of the investigation can come out um to highlight the work it was it was absolutely incredible what these guys did i'm very proud of them for that the uh of course you know
it can't be lost the reason that this hit all of us so close is because of that family and the victims and um had the opportunity to uh talk to that family multiple times um got to visit with them in person and it's just it's a heartbreaking ordeal I don't there's there's no words you know I've said before I can't express what they're feeling because I can't even understand it but those two little girls are absolute heroes what they were able to do the information they
were able to give it all started with them had it not been for them we're we we don't make an to wrestle in this case at least not this quick um so i'm just in absolute awe of those little girls and how strong they were um couldn't be more proud of them got a chance to visit with them a couple of days ago and just the sweetest little girls that you've ever met in your life and and they're they're just little girls i mean it's heartbreaking um i don't know i know that you guys have seen the information that's been released to the press i don't pretend to know
what questions you may have but with that i'll just i'll open it up to any question i
can answer i will certainly do my best
senator rice you recognize for a question thank you mr chair thank you colonel for being here
today and appreciate all your work on this and other things too uh as i watch the news media uh and that all come together i i just
greatly appreciate the professionalism and just human compassion that was shown uh for that family and and i think about those little girls that'll be with them the rest of their life I don't see how they couldn't have a fear about doing anything. And the real fact is this can happen anywhere in any time in today's society. There is an interest in the public from wanting to know,
and I understand the reasons you can't share some things and all, and I just read an article while we were sitting here about the judge closed the courtroom today and even taped over the one window that you could see in the courtroom. And, I mean, there's interest from the public that wants to know. And, yes, this case has to move forward, but I don't understand that either. Right. And we had that happen with a former colleague of ours and a friend of ours that was killed a few years ago in Central Collins.
And it was frustrating when the courts moved stuff around. uh and all and and you don't understand a lot of reasons for that so anyway what i'm getting at is i just appreciate the position you're in and thank you again for your work i want to touch on just a little i think we'll probably hear some more stuff maybe in a different committee at some time and i sure don't want to take anything away from what y'all have done on this case and other cases too but uh it's it's been brought up and the news media uh touched on
the second amendment rights or the lack of rights that that people have on having guns for safety in state parks and i think it's going to be addressed from maybe the park department Can you give us your thoughts on that? How can the public use their Second Amendment rights to maybe keep something like this from happening?
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
36:26
A question like that makes my wife nervous because she says the word according to Mike. I can give you my opinion on that. I'd be glad to have your opinion. I respect your opinion. Well, my opinion is, and I think it's sometimes people are surprised to learn that police officers are as pro-Second Amendment rights as we are. Unfortunately, we do deal with bad people that have weapons, and that's addressed accordingly when we do.
But the more good people that we have with weapons and the ability to defend themselves, the better that we all are. And I'm an absolute believer in that ability to defend not only myself but my family, and I think everybody has that right. There's a certain amount of, well, if you look at some of our cities and states around the country that have a lot more restrictive behavior as it relates to Second Amendment rights,
And they do not have what one would think of if you restrict guns and there should be less gun crime. That's just not the case. I mean, and we see that. That's not an opinion. That's facts. I mean, we know that. So there's a certain amount of apprehension in Arkansas of going into a bedroom window when you know there's an outstanding chance that that Arkansan in that house has probably got a shotgun and a rifle and they know how to use it. So I would say that the ability to pull off a crime like that is impeded significantly just by the fear of what's waiting on them on the other side.
I can tell you as a police officer, I've never minded encountering a good law-abiding citizen that has a weapon, ever. I've never felt threatened by that at all. Unfortunately, you know, we do encounter the criminal element, and they do have weapons. And every vehicle we approach, we approach it with the thought process that this person may be a bad person armed with the intent to hurt me. And you have to. I mean, that's part of it. But my personal opinion is, yes, to say we're pro-Second Amendment right in law enforcement, certainly in state police, is an understatement.
I absolutely believe in that right, and I think it's healthy for
the state. Thank you for expressing that. Thank you, Mr.
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
39:06
Chair. any other questions from committee members thank you one of the things that I just wanted you to kind of highlight if you'll just recap sometimes we see the media but we the purpose I think of today in this committee for us as a
legislature is we see the reports of the media but it may not be complete from the things that you kind of went through on this investigation could you just kind of briefly go back through just the time I don't know if you have it in front of you or not but I think it's significant the timeline of how quickly you were able to um to to apprehend this this suspect um and then And if you can just also go through the technology that was in the calls that came in,
were you able to process that quickly? Did you need, did you have the resources that you needed? Did you rely on other agencies for answering those tips or calls? Those are the kinds of things that I'm interested in to hearing about this investigation because you did move so fast, and I know, and I really appreciate the governor being there on site. And talking about this and communicating very thoroughly, sometimes we don't see that level of communication with the public, as Senator Rice was talking about.
But if you could just quickly just go through, I think it's just so significant to talk about the timeline and then how quickly you were able to apprehend. and then if you relied on any other, you know, partnerships and agencies and how that intersected, and is there going to be a kind of a process agency review, just like what you're talking about with the mass casualty community outreach issue, like what did we learn, you know, from just the process? So not speaking of the case or anything individual there,
but just that timeline, how quickly you were
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
41:03
able to react. Right. Well, so as far as the, the investigation itself, um, it did present challenges. Um, there are not ordinary. Um, I think most people realize that, uh, a, a random act that there's no personal connection between a suspect and a victim is actually extremely rare um honestly most homicide investigations are not necessarily whodunits
it's more of collecting evidence making the arrest and then preparing that case for trial and just making sure that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed um it's not extremely common that you work a case that uh you can't develop a lead in a suspect within a fairly short amount of time and this one um we in addition to the terrain where the uh the crime occurred that automatically
caused a lapse of the time that it took for um those little girls to get to someone to make them aware that this had happened and then the time it took them to get out to the ranger station to make those notifications and then of course the time that it took to get to the crime scene so how far was that approximately is
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
42:26
from the trailhead it was about a
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
42:28
half a mile into the woods was a trail clearly marked or easy to
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
42:35
navigate yes ma'am from my understanding it's
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
42:39
it's very similar i've not been in that park specifically but it's very similar from my understanding of uh pinnacle mountain petty gene things like that where they're clearly marked hiking trails so um you know one of the things that it wasn't an impediment necessarily but it it you had to pause on some of the information that was put out because again everything started with those two little girls that had just witnessed something that it's hard to even
you know process what those girls had witnessed so um when you are working off a description of a suspect knowing that that person has been those you know juveniles have been traumatized so much there's a lot of collaboration that has to go into that not that you don't trust them but we know from law enforcement from years of doing this job that eyewitness accounts are sometimes flawed so especially when somebody witnesses a traumatic event that it skews their
memory and so when the information on the suspect was developed from these girls there was quite a time lapse to be able to cooperate that with other witnesses that saw people or saw the person that matched the description that these girls gave us and then by the time that you take that and you start to cooperate that information and then that leads to the car being identified from a person that saw the suspect that was identified by the or i'm sorry that was uh described by the little
girls and then that information you start working off that and you know to the technology that was used we live in a day of rain cameras and surveillance cameras and security cameras that are stationed throughout and they were able to go back and look at every possible route in and out of that park and capture data that captured that potential suspect vehicle. And then we were able to narrow that down to the one particular car
that we felt like was our car of interest. There are some technology things that I probably won't get into today that are available that helped us identify that car, isolate that specific car once it was identified. Um, and that led, you know, of course, to the, the arrest itself. One thing that I, you know, would like to touch on, um, we met every day, um, at the end of the day, we would have a conference call with the investigators and we talked
about, um, the need for the public. And I believe in that. And I believe that we owe it to the public to try to put as much information out as possible. But you're always hesitant in a situation like this, because if we put out what we think and what we suspect, but it's not actually the case. And I'll give you an example. We knew that this suspect was injured. We knew that there was blood loss on scene. We suspected that we knew if it was consistent with attacks like that
and other crime scenes and other crimes that had been investigated, we suspected we knew the types of injuries. Our concern about that was, number one, We didn't put that out to the public immediately because the first thing that those investigators did was went to every emergency room and urgent health care center in a tri-state area, just anywhere that was within basically driving distance of that area, and notified them that if anyone comes into that treatment facility seeking medical treatment with wounds consistent that we were looking for, that we needed to be notified.
Well, if we put that information out to the media, then obviously we're going to push that guy away for medical treatment. And because he knows that we're looking for that, he knows that he's injured or that we know that he's injured. So there's a time lapse before we can push that information out. Once that time did lapse, then we did go ahead and release the information that we felt like he was injured. Having said that, we didn't know what those injuries were. We knew that there was a violent struggle out there. and we didn't know if he was injured to his hands, to his arms,
if he had head injuries. We knew that there was blood loss, but we didn't know for sure. So you're inclined to put out to the public that, you know, we're looking for a person that matches this description that may have these types of wounds, but what if we get that wrong? And we're working off percentages that we feel like that there's a good chance that that's the type of wounds that this person has, but it turns out that wasn't the case. and now there's a suspect that someone may think that, hey, we need to take a look at this guy. I think that, you know, it's someone that you'd be interested in.
But, you know, he doesn't have cuts to his hands or his arms or, you know, some of the things that we are kind of speculating about at that point because it's not confirmed. So we have to be very careful about unintentionally putting a red herring out there that now we have people not calling in and giving us information that we need because it doesn't fit certain things that we think it should fit and you know so that's always a concern um there's i can tell you that every day when we met with the investigators and our
communications team um it was specifically with the intent of giving the public as much information as we could possibly give them without giving them something that was going to be detrimental to the case in addition to identifying and arresting this subject we also have to prosecute him successfully and so even as we sit here today there's a little bit of you know concern about at some point a jury is going to be seated and you know we can't give a lot of information that
might be considered inflammatory because we don't want to prejudice that jury you know we don't want to give a defense the opportunity to claim that we've prejudiced that jury so um it's i can tell you that uh there was a lot of discussion about having a press conference immediately and addressing the media and but one of the things that's a pet peeve of mine is for someone to call a press conference to only stand there and say i don't know i don't know or i won't say that's extremely frustrating. And so we didn't want to do that. Um, so we put out as much information as we could
as quickly as we could. Um, but all the while it was, it had to be calculated on, is this going to hinder the investigation? Is this going to help us? And a lot of the information that, uh, we put out did result in, uh, tips and things like that, that we were able to work off of, um, that helped tremendously. And to another question that you asked us for is like the tip lines and things like that. Honestly, we were overwhelmed, um, with people that are very
well intentioned that are calling and they're trying to give information that they think we need to know. And until you triage that information and you realize that it's either beneficial or it's not, um, there's some that you can, you know, kind of write off pretty quick and there's some that you can't but if you receive 500 plus tips that's 500 you know different directions now we're sending our investigators so um it's just a it's a very lengthy process which you can quickly get outside of your bandwidth on your capability in this particular case um we had no reason to believe
on the front end that there was any connection between our victim and our suspects um but we didn't know that and it's something that you have to um you know look into and close that loophole so you immediately start doing almost a background of your victims and trying to find if there's any type of adversarial relationships that they have in this situation our victims were from california they had moved to montana then to south dakota then most recently to arkansas and so there was a huge geographical area that we had to cover um to talk to neighbors talk to work associates talk
to family members anything and everything that you could think of you know trying to establish if there was some type of relationship that we need to look at if there was a possible you know motive behind this and you know everything that every lead that you're having to either close the loophole on or follow up on it's it's spreading those resources out pretty quick so we did rely and other state, city, and federal agencies to assist with that. We have federal partners that were able to assist us with some technology
that proved to be very, very beneficial. So it was absolutely a coordinated effort. One thing that we're blessed in Arkansas is Captain Tosh knows, unfortunately, this is not always the case, but just tell it like it is, law enforcement tends to be very territorial sometimes, and they're very hesitant to reach out for help. And in Arkansas, we are so blessed that we don't deal with that.
I got calls immediately from sheriffs, police chiefs, special agents in charge of FBI, HSI, you name it, whatever the federal acronym is they were calling, saying, what do you need, how can we help you? And so it's nice to not only know that they're there if we reach out to them, but they were reaching out to us. And it was the same with all of our local partners there, even the partners in California and those other states that I mentioned. So it quickly can overwhelm resources, so you have to rely on those relationships.
And we're very blessed in Arkansas that we've got a really good relationship with our local and federal partners. and it made all the difference in this case and it's the reason that an arrest
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
52:38
was made as fast as it was. Thank you I appreciate that recap and the final thing I'll just say is I really appreciate y'all focusing on the heroic behavior of the mother. Yes. I and the time that you took to talk about the victims I mean and the father obviously but for that mother to take her children
and then to return, you know, I just, I mean, the heroism of those parents was just, but thank you for focusing on the victims and their heroism. Thank you. Thank you, Co-Chair. And Carter,
let me just kind of go back and something you said and so everybody in the committee, they'll probably understand this, but to make sure the Arkansas State Police, as defined by law, is an assisting agency. So whatever agency in which that crime, in that jurisdiction in which the crime was committed, they have to, am I correct?
They have to make a request for the assistance of the Arkansas State Police before we can respond to that crime scene. Yes, sir, that's correct. But I agree with you, in years past, the local agencies, you know, they've always been fantastic to reach out to the state police. you know there's been a few situations over the years where we had a delay and by the time the state police got there you know obviously the crime scene was not exactly the way you'd want it to be but in this particular case it was an immediate request to the state police which is
what you find most of the time with the relationship that state police has with with other law enforcement agencies across the state but i just wanted to make sure and i'm correct about all that
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
54:23
yes sir by statute by statute where we are an assisting agency i think when the state police was formed in 1935 there was uh there were kind of guard rails put into place because at that time the legislative body did not want to create an agency that was going to come in and run rough shot basically over their sheriff's departments or
police departments and rightfully so so uh it is a statutory obligation for us and to take primary on a case we have to be requested either by the agency of jurisdiction or the prosecuting attorney in that district and that request was made immediately in this situation so and i appreciate
that that's the first time that uh you've ever mentioned that state police was uh they were formed by statute in 1935 that you didn't say that that's when i was hired and so uh you know
i i really was expecting that but uh well i was
Mike Hager
Unverified
55:19
hoping you weren't going to ask me if i remembered the incident in 1972 because that was
a year before i was born so yeah i do but anyways i want to thank you we well we got another uh representative
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
55:35
ladyman you're recognized for a question thank you mr chairman i'm over here yes sir uh thank you for being here and talking about this very interesting but um you mentioned you're you're a support organization uh my understanding
is you have the highway system but you know we talk about jurisdiction you know and I used to be a mayor and I understand that
a little bit but who would have the primary jurisdiction here would that be the fish and game officers
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
56:04
in this case or would that be the county sheriff I'll be honest with you that I'm not sure of the technicality of that this this occurred in Washington County and so typically there's a kind of established protocol whether if it's in a city park a state
park a game and fish reserve you know things like that on if an incident happens who's going to be the report taker and who's going to do a follow-up investigation I think it was established quite some time back that if an incident happened within that state park that state police would be primary um but we uh just because of course our partners at state parks they're certified police officers they're you know they're rangers just like we have a lot of entities that have full
law enforcement certifications but we all have kind of our own piece of the pie and we specialize in different things and um they don't have an investigative uh service that you know that would be uh realistic to investigate a crime of this nature so that's the
Speaker 104
57:08
reason that the state police well i knew that fish and game
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
57:13
officers you know have a lot of authority in a lot of areas in the state probably more than any other group of officials or officers in that park that was
in park i've been there quite a few times and that thing is huge and uh you know it just amazes me that that you all and whoever worked on this was able to do this because you could get lost in that part for hours or days and to have two young girls uh roughly what age were these girls i mean they were
Speaker 104
57:48
seven and nine oh my i mean that's amazing and so
Representative Wayne Long
Unverified
57:54
they had to find their way back they they found their way
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
58:00
to another hiker who um and told the other hiker what had happened
and then that person took them out to the ranger
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
58:08
station well it's just amazing that they did that and you know the amount of surveillance that you have in a park that large i mean And, you know, the evidence had to be pretty sketchy in that situation. So it was amazing to me that y'all were able to do this so quick. So thank you
for your work. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Leiterman. Representative Rye, you're
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
58:35
recognized for a question. From the time that this actually occurred until the time that you actually knew
that you had your person, how long do you
think it took? i think the crime was on saturday afternoon yes and i believe the arrest was made and i'm sorry my days and nights started running together but it was either wednesday or thursday and the information started to develop quickly when we felt comfortable we were on the right
track, and we felt that we had corroborated a lot of evidence and a lot of information, and once that vehicle was identified, I would say within the hour, we had our suspect
in custody. Considering, sir, that you had these children that you
had to use for help, to be commended, It's those little girls are heroes.
For an adult to be able to give the information in light of those events would be pretty amazing. The amount of detail they were able to give us for a 7- and a 9-year-old to do that is incredible. It's absolutely incredible. I can't say enough about those little girls and that mom and dad that raised those little girls. that's one thing to senator urban's point that um we in talking with the family you know we all
look at things from a different perspective and and for us it's it's all about evidentiary and it's about finding this person making our case um when we talked
Representative Wayne Long
Unverified
1:00:31
to that family they were adamant about don't forget uh clinton kristin Excellent work.
Colonel, seeing no further questions for committee members.
Representative Wayne Long
Unverified
1:00:54
Representative Long, you're recognized for a question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not a committee member, but that's why I waited until the end. I wanted to ask the Colonel a question, if I may. Yes, you're recognized. Colonel, this past weekend, 17-year-old Hannah Osborne came up missing in my community of Bradford. And I assume state police is involved in that. And I was wondering if you could offer any updates on how
that investigation is going. Honestly, sir, I can't. Not because I can't disclose it.
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
1:01:26
I just don't know. I've been briefed about that she is missing. I know that our communication shop is working with local authorities to push information out. I know we
Representative Wayne Long
Unverified
1:01:36
are investigating that, but I apologize. I don't know any details about it. Thank you, sir. I
appreciate y'all's help in this. Seeing no further questions. Carl, I just want to say in closing, really appreciate you being here today. I know sometimes to have to say it and to relive a situation like this
that what you went through there can be emotionally tough on an individual. And I just want to applaud you for the great job you did and the way you handled yourself today and for updating this committee and also for the outstanding job you did in keeping us all informed through the media in your interviews. You just did an outstanding job. You handled yourself so well. and I just, I know that I'm very appreciative of it
and I know you give credit. I understand that. That's what a good leader does and you give credit to the men and women of the Arkansas State Police just as you've done that here today and to other agencies but you know I've always said that members of any agency are a reflection of their leader so even though you may want to pass on credit to the men and women of your department is what you should do, but we want to pass on to you that we recognize your leadership and the great job you do
in leading the Arkansas State Police because the ones that I've been around that just seem to possess, the members of the State Police seem to possess that spirit of service now that, you know, just doing whatever it takes to get the job done. And I think that was well demonstrated in this investigation. So with that, seeing – oh, you had a question you wanted me to ask, Senator. Sorry.
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:03:34
So because it happened in the state park, the state park requested the state police, and then y'all led the investigation. Is that correct? I don't
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
1:03:42
know if the request formally came from the sheriff's department or the state parks, honestly. I would have to go back and put a letter to see. I just
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:03:51
wanted to get clarity on that. Yes,
ma'am. Thank you, Senator. Seeing no other business, this meeting is adjourned.
Agenda
A. Call to Order
B. Comments by the Co-Chairs
C. Overview of Arkansas State Police Community Outreach
D. Update on Devil’s Den Homicide Case - Colonel Mike Hagar, Director, Arkansas State Police
E. Other Business
F. Adjournment
Documents
| Title | Type | Pages | Source |
|---|---|---|---|
| Agenda — ALC - GAME & FISH/STATE POLICE, Aug 14, 2025 | Agenda | 1 | Official source ↗ |
Speakers
Speaker 2
Speaker 1
Speaker 6
Speaker 11
Speaker 3
Speaker 23
Representative Dwight Tosh Chair
Unverified
Speaker 32
Speaker 36
Speaker 22
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
Speaker 44
Speaker 45
Mike Hager
Unverified
Representative Johnny Rye
Unverified
Speaker 71
Senator Terry Rice Chair
Unverified
Representative Jack Ladyman
Unverified
Speaker 104
Representative Wayne Long
Unverified
Speaker 112