City, County & Local Affairs Committee - Senate

Of. So we're going to pass over Senate bill six seventy nine Senator Teague bill and we're Senator Dismang if you want to go in present. House Bill eighteen seventy seven. House Bill eighteen seventy seven you're recognized Senator Dismang. Thank you Mr chairman. So they're really in the session we passed a very similar bill that related to a police officers so house bill eighteen seventy seven requires local fire departments to make available to a firefighter who has also been involved in the critical incident the opportunity to participate in a a briefing by a mental health professional or certified peer support member I mean clearly you know they've been exposed to some very serious issue or trauma have have witnessed some things that are hard to get over this is insuring that they have the support that's needed with that we have to take any questions or any questions from committee. Senator Johnson. Thank you Mr chairman Senate is why is this like about to Hi. Traumatic stress disorder or something that that is right yes Sir yes Sir okay thank you thank you for any other questions from committee. Senator Clark. This means this in response to a problem I mean we. We had that it in a sense yes Sir so I mean you can just look at a firefighter when the bill down look at some data sets on those of nineteen percent have had thoughts of suicide twenty seven percent of struggle with substitute abuse fifty nine percent of experience family and relationship problems sixty five percent are haunted by memories back calls in so get there is an issue just because of the type of work that they do and this is sharing that if there you know if there if they are struggling that they're given the opportunity to seek that mental health the help that they need right I thank let me rephrase my question was is there a problem now with with some people not that's my understanding yes thank you. Any other questions from committee. Saying on any anyone in the audience wish to speak for against the bill. Sanson is mine closed I'm closed our. I have a motion from Senator Clark do pass and second from Senator Solomon all those in favor. All opposed resolution just one thank you Mr chairman thank for the motion Senator Clark. Thank you for. Okay. You have eighteen eighty four yes Sir and there's an amendment yes we got a member to hand out to members. This money will go explain the amendment yes Sir so there was some concern that the way the bill was written some proprietary information or you know processes might be disclose it was never the intent of the bill that intended to bills to allow data sets to be if a wild bull and available to the public and so just clarifies that the sex means common file format that includes without limitation American standard code for information exchange and large data databases comma separated values McGuinness's try to remedy some concerns but I my understanding that may not remitted all that That that's the amendment. Any questions on the amendment. I have a motion to adopt the amendment. The second motion up to member center Johnson is second by Senator Solomon. All those in favor say aye. All opposed. It management adopted sent by thank you Mr chairman. And so if I can House Bill eighteen eighty four this bill we're create uniformity and fairness regarding request a public record and once a public record in this context is for County data by simplifying the format in which data can be requested instant this bill will ensure that software providers who are already equipped will quit public officials with the ability to easily retrieve the data in a usable format B. one essentially says that a county administrative rights include the ability to extract us extract files for sharing see to be if the county wants to know what the data file formats are available for public data request the software provider must tell the council what formats are available D. states that the bulk of data can be requested in a format only the exist in that format it does not require a new format in which that is to be stored it's move on D. also through the amendment clarifies that the third party provider contracted by the council must give the council the ability to access and share their own data in a commonly used file format that retains the utility of the data minus any proprietary information and it also clarifies that redacted in exam data won't be shared in the vote data exempting audio and video file formats because they're not included in those times requests for both real real estate data use at the end of the day everything that we do in real estate is moving online and that information you know that. The reoccurring updating that information is critical for that profession and and folks in real estate fields hopes the the this bill hopes to to be able to make that a more availability for questions on a regular basis this is data that is owned by the county not by the provider at some point again there is the to providers putting usable format but the raw data exist at the end of the day in and should be made available to our constituents and those that seek to also utilize it to better the real estate industry with that we have to take any questions. Our committee for the bill explain any questions. Senator Dismang is there any any county or county officials against this my understanding that everybody at this point it's become neutral I think the last concern and and some the language that recently adopted what's up from Pulaski County it is a great job and disclosing their information making it available but with that now I'm not aware of any county officials that are opposed what exactly what information are you asking for that you can already get it is the the data that is compiled really real estate transactions and so that you know that from the the of the property sales you know that's that's price and all that is all the information that we keep on property so right now if you go to your county's website pop up your home it's going to be able to give you square footage the assessed value the last time it was sold and history of all transactions related to that property so I mean that that's the data that we're talking about most counties will contract provider to manage that data for them we're not trying to get in between that or create anything new there or even a mandate but will often other entities want to have access to the information which they have through FY but lots of times it's transmitted in a form that is just simply not usable even though the data set exist this is requires that if there is a data set that usable that it be disclosed and made available to those that are requesting information at the end of the day this is all public information this is not the information owned by a provider. Senator Johnson you have a question. Yes thank you Mr chairman of the Senate is mine you mentioned that I thank you for the amendment I think it did it and dress some of the concerns that I had heard but you mentioned that you didn't think it took care of all the concerns could you tell me what the concerns that that have not been addressed our age best well I wish I could actually ask if the attorney that was supposed or still going to remain opposed bill would like to have a discussion to make sure that we can clarify anything that might have popped up and I was still day religious do that in front of you all so I guess that's a question I'll have to ask them because they should not have a conversation with me I'm glad to have a conversation here in public meeting that's fine I I but I I have to admit that I've. This this I had almost a flashback and I only say this because I think it's relevant to the bill Many years ago I shudder to think how much but to. We had a case where there the law clearly said the voter registration list was available public. And the chairman of the Republican Party at the time who I think may have been judge Arnold or even the late Bob Leslie who just passed away a week or so ago but they made a request to flash the county for the list and they ask for it in a electronic format which in those days meant disk or whatever. And they got before a circuit judge who was a real good judges a good gap resolver gentleman Hey didn't understand the difference between data and electronic form and software and the lawyers who didn't want to release it to the Republican Party convinced them that what they would be doing was stealing the county software so I'm not. I don't I don't think that but on the other hand I wonder if there's when you get into proprietary information and I know that they were information may be you can't see the. the data the the public information without maybe some semblance of that and again that's way above my technical skill level but I yeah I do have a concern and I can't support the bill until such time I'm satisfied with that and today the testimony might lead to me being satisfied but to woods if if for something on that would you would you be okay with how it may be for one meeting if we can't reach an agreement I mean so we're we are in session we're trying to take care of those concerns and I appreciate what you're saying and I'm not saying I would be opposed but if we read the amendment there there's one thing to be oppose just because we want to be opposed which I would say some is not willing to have a conversation that's probably where we are and there's not an amendment that's truly going to make them satisfied but we'll find that out here just a few minutes I guess again we we try to very specifically say in the amendment that this is just the data files in regulatory provided format I mean anything that's proprietary that they do and how they manipulate that that at that is not to be disclosed but at the core of what they have there is a data set or the admitted that they manipulate. That's great I don't want to know about the manipulation I want to be able to see the data set I believe that belongs to the public just like those voter rolls in an electronic format actually belong to the public and if we're going to allow I mean essentially if we don't do anything what we're saying is that essentially whenever that county contracts for that provider to manage that data. The committee on the data but that's not true and that's not what we intended and I think that's what county officials attended either but with that yeah we'll we'll hear the discussion today and I think we'll all get a little bit of knowledge okay thank you senator Usman thank you Mr chairman. Senate just Bangor any attempt to resolve this maybe privately with twenty to come. Well the I think they I think they did I think that's reason you have this amendment and again I mean. I thought it I thought it would have alleviated any of the concerns I think everybody you know that I talked to Phil I could believe you know remitted whatever the concerns may be and you know there's for some reason will and I and again I tried to not privately but just have a discussion make sure there was some that miss and I was told that we would wait and have that conversation here instead of no twenty minutes ago so he spoke to the he spoke to the council vendors. Because well I mean I I spoke yes some of them yes okay and I'd tried an ask for a conversation with the others when they said they were opposed regardless of the amendment which they did appreciate but I'm not sure what the concerns are at this point or any other questions from committee members Senator Solomon. Yes I've heard from so much smaller counties and. Our populations that said they're going to have a difficult time with this can you respond to that. Again I I'm not sure why me that meet me there so I've been in this is all information that has to be made available what we're talking about right now it's what format it doesn't make sense to Senator Johnson's point that the only thing that we provide as PDF's I mean these are big bulk data files they're constantly being changed and again for our real estate industry it's critical that we know what's happening with those properties and that you know just and it's not limited is one provider to be able to see that that set apart thank you thank you thank you Mr. President questions. Are saying and we have a couple people signed up to speak against the bill. Marshall and Nays. Naig. What pronounce it right. Because. If you will identify if you identify yourself for the record you're recognized. Mike. Or go interview Michael Marshall Ney with Friday Eldredge and Clark and I'm here to speak against the bill okay recognized. So if I may let me speak broadly and then and then I'll speak to the amendment if that's okay there there's a significant history over the dispute that is now materialized in the house bill eighteen eighty four this is not the citizens of Arkansas trying to get an additional opportunity to review publicly available data that is not this in fact the the the very data that we're discussing the reason for the bill any of you could pull up your phone right now and go to our county data dot com and you could see a hundred percent of the information that we're talking about today this is not about information this is about functionality and it's not just about functionality it's about one competitor trying to get the functionality of its primary competitor it's other competitor so this is a bill that is a special interest bill to try to give an advantage to one competitor over another one this dispute dates back to two thousand thirteen and fourteen when the sponsor of this bill filed litigation in litigated all the way to the Supreme Court trying to get this functionality and guess what the Supreme Court said no. All of the data is available. And recall that the purpose of the freedom of information act is to allow the citizens of the State of Arkansas to have visibility into how government works it's not a tool so that a private enterprise can avoid its own R&D. By simply taking somebody else's their competitors functionality. And so even when you look at this amendment. Again we're not talking about data you know this data is available in multiple formats either you can go to the website and get it you can go to a county and get it on excel PDF and other formats. But that's not what the sponsor of this bill wants what they want is to have in the even in the amendment say accessibility and usability let me translate that for you the usability that was designed at great expense by my client. And so when you look and see what they're looking for here you know they're looking for the opportunity to have that functionality so while it says. In the amendment in a format that does not disclose the proprietary software code of the third party electronic record provider he goes on to say it but does not impair the usability and accessibility of the of the data so translation we still want the full functionality designed by my competitor. That's what they want to in the end if you look at the last sentence of the amendment they want to delete the protection of redacted proprietary or exempt those are three words they want to delete. So I would I would just submit to this committee this is not a situation where you have the the citizens of the State of Arkansas clamoring for more than the access they already have on the website or county data dot com with this is a competitor who is trying to get a leg up to have the functionality designed by its competitor so that it can sell. So that it can sell the data. Two other users for profit. This bill would drag our counties and our parties back into the litigation that these parties were in for many years and would even chill out of state providers from wanting to come be the leading provider to our counties in the state of Arkansas for fear of losing their proprietary. Software in systems that they went to great expense to to create if this proponent of this bill would have spent the time money and resources in our entity that they have spent since two thousand and thirteen or fourteen fighting for my clients proprietary software they would have their own by now and they still have that opportunity to design their own system to to download this data in any file format they want. I'll stop there and take any questions from the committee. Senator Johnson you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman of Mr knighted you hear my. Comments to Senator Dismang using the. Voter registration issue from it was at least thirty years go by what four years ago but could you comment on that in comparison to this situation yes senator Johnson is the identical situation again we're not talking about the data we're talking about the software we're talking about the functionality of the software the proponent of this bill has access to a hundred percent of the data. But they wanted in a format that makes it the easiest possible way for them to sell for a profit. Sure rather than design it they want the functionality in even in the amendment it say aye we don't want your proprietary software but we one hundred percent of the functionality that you design. Do you hear the disconnect you can't have it both ways. Thank you Mr I thank you Mr. What what kind of costs associated with putting together a a usability plan. So I I I don't know you mean what what would it take to design instability planned. Well the fact of the matter is is essentially if you're if you're going to if you're going to publish. Your software to the world to use you've lost your competitive advantage you've lost your ability to sell the very thing the research and development that has resulted in the great functionality of our county dot com all that you can go on the website that any citizen of Arkansas can go on that I had to open and use all the time. You if you just give that away. the the cost in terms of dollars and since I don't know what the cost is is you no longer have the incentive to do that are indeed if you're giving away your software without without a license fee so the only way you realistically could per protect yourself is to increase the cost by such a significant amount that you essentially imply a license into the software that you're selling the county to cover the cost of disseminating it to the world. So I don't have a dollars and cents answer for you I'm I'm sorry but I can tell you it would be substantial as the front center Kharkiv question. Yes I may have several Mr of. What software. Are you saying that they would be getting through this information well as you heard in the presentation of the proponent of the bill. there was an indication that the that the citizens of Arkansas that this is a heavy real estate market now and we wanted to be able to download and immediately available relationships you know the the property that was as it was just taken discreet property a property it's improvements its market data that would that would impact the value of it square footage of the relationships of all of these data points so those relationships. Or the very code the software that my client designed and what you can now see publicly on our county dot com what this bill seeks to do is to rather than do their own design of creating the relationships of those data points. They want to receive those data points in those same relationships so Senator Clark right now you could go as a citizen of Arkansas you could go on our county dot com you could pull up your property and you could see all of those relationships you could print all of those relationships you could see everything because the the software is working in the background. What they want to do not just for the discreet property they want a bulk data file. That in that file has all of those relationships so that they don't have to design their own software to have all of those relationships so then they can go sell it for a profit. But those relationships are the very design of what my client has invested such substantial resources in and doing well the those are your raise questions to us Senator Dismang but the. The information you describe sounds like. It's in the. One of your software may work in a way to gather that information. The information. Where it is located is more in a spreadsheet. Datafile fairly standard. I'm no different from a would be in my computer it's. It would if we decide to put this in a and B. and C. in the that's where it's at and so are and so are you suggesting that if they get the information you get this information with this informational be discombobulated way over here somewhere the. That I don not sure how that software related of. I mean if I if I simply went to the county. And wanted a voter registration list. And they said well you know we gathered all this through software. So we can't give you the name and the address and how many people are in the home. And what party. You know we're going to do that in different places what makes no sense is that what you're telling me. Well and and all at the the technical school people speak to the the the the precise answer but let me let me give you my best response sub subject to clarification from a behind me in just a minute my best response is is that that there are data points all over the county all over the and and what what my client to print this does is it rights code. To associate different data points. So that if you go on to your computer as a as a user you can you can see those associations the associations or in the background but you as an Arkansas citizen can immediately go on to this website for any county that purchases the software and not every county purchases this the given you have competitors in the industry but in our county data dot com you can go in there and you can pull up a piece of property or a taxpayer in you can see those associations best through the hard work and research and development and designing soft core software to make those associations. So if I if I wanted a bold data. I have the ability to get it downloaded in in multiple file formats that are electronic. And I have the same ability to design software to do that a similar association to what approve the stead to sail. But so yes so if the answer is does it come in a spreadsheet where you don't necessarily have ten data points that are interconnected linked together. That would be correct it would be on the the the the private enterprise that wants to sell for a profit that association it would be their obligation to create that inter connection just like my client did but. If I went in. And we're keeping the voter records I'll stay on that keep in the voter records in our people by hand without any software I would still have the same information what are not. I'm not sure I understand the question would I not what are not put the same data. The the names the addresses the number of people in the household the political party the last time they voted the last ten times a voted what primaries what what I would if I was doing it by hand instead of using software what I'm not still have the same data in the same locations. I think I think that's correct. So I'm not sure how that's all related and they may not know dresses committee may not know but there's no one more protected than software companies so I had a friend. That we are received the subpoena on Friday it had answer by Monday. And up or you go to jail and spent half a million dollars. The and didn't do anything because he was accused of of downloading somebody software of the it's amazing what the laws are in protecting software so. You're really suggesting that there were they can get the software through this. This means. The functionality a hundred percent and let me give you example Senator Clark. One of the things that a princess does is it it It watches the market for for real estate purchases. And and each time there's a real estate purchase a property is sold for a certain dollar per square foot. In the algorithms designed by. In this. They track all of that information. In the end they associate it back. To an individual property in an individual taxpayer. So I think what you're really reason is a separate issue. Is that if I'm following you is that the software. Is active. Is is monitoring the market and the data that is there. Because of the software is. Constantly changing and so it and again I'm not sure that's what you said and so therefore they're benefiting from your work. Yes but if they receive the file that maintains that precise functionality. They and they have also received the work and and what I would point out. You know again is that FOR Y.. The purpose of FO wise to have access to records not have access to aggregations or systems and in fact F. O. Y. even exempts files that if disclosed would give advantage to a competitor. And that's what we have here this this this runs afoul of the very requirement of R. F. O. Y.. That that specifically states files that would give advantage to a competitor. So but what can we do you have someone here if you can't it seems like you can't be more specific about. But because what we will talk about what is what data. The heat of. Yes I can I can stand aside and allow attacked someone with the technical expertise to testify. Yes you have someone else compensable time yes your questions is sold. Senate. Yes Sir if you want to go and identify yourself for the record we have a couple questions before we proceed. Yes thank you chairman of my name is Alan Jennings I'm the president and general manager apprentice which is in Arkansas owned and based technology firm all right Senator B. Johnson you at first questions. Okay Senator Solomon you're recognized thank you for your you got the contract how long was the contract last digit. Eternal yes no Sir no Sir all of our contracts are annual they can be canceled at any time. At the end of this year if you don't want the next contract what happens to that proprietary software related information right so all of the data belongs to the county they keep all of the data and their records and the software stays with us they have to pay for our technology to use the software but of course the county data records belong to the counter for you would extract the proprietary software in the with the caught the functionality would come back to you that whoever took over would have to have their new proprietary software that is correct Sir all right thank you thank you Mr but thank you John let me just say this doesn't just involve a county rate real estate records this involves all records. Correct. Yes Sir it does as a matter of fact I received a letter from Adam walk ins that fit their technologies are some of you may or may not have seen that letter and they express very considerable concerns about the risks to their proprietary technology in the world the circuit Clerk software and that's a you know a different area of the courthouse that that we don't have a whole lot of expert expertise in but certainly he was not able to be here this morning and force they do the short notice but certainly shares those concerns and is very concerned about the language of the bill not so much the spirit of the bill March centre Johnson your question. Thank you Mr chairman and thank you gentlemen for trying to help us understand this Mister Jennings I wanted to ask Mr novel I ask you and I'm not I always try to break issues that I can under stand into something that's smaller bites no pun intended I am familiar with the concept call reverse engineering and that if I can can. Get into someone's code I could reverse engineer it and my my daughter software developers are is I know any of this stuff. I could conceivably reverse engineer it and take advantage of much of the work they have done is proprietary but to sticker a different. A little bit changing the code and say well this is totally different and and I but I would be. Ninety five or more percent of the way toward having my own software but it really be at least made up of parts that I had been able to reverse engineer from someone else's work hi my understanding that what what you are saying about that is that can you elaborate on that no yes Sir you're exactly correct senator you know as a software provider we don't have hard assets we don't have property plant and equipment like to manufacturing company would our only asset really is our intellectual property and so we certainly do try to protect that because there's always you know competitors that are trying to get a hold of that and make use of that in in the language of this bill when it says things like provide in original format it it might come to mind as if that original format is sitting in a an access file or an excel file or or something that you can just hand over but in today's modern software it's in active databases often hosted in cloud environments in in a variety of different technologies that themselves are proprietary that original format is proprietary technology and so it's some of this language that concerns us about protecting our local Arkansas technology sector from other interest in the in the nation that might want to do exactly what you're saying be able to reverse engineer or steel pieces or parts of that software or proprietary technology. So answered my questions yes yes Sir yes. Thank you Sir thank you much to Senator Dismang would you like to respond. I would thanks for that opportunity now I kind of fully considered on a closing this is just a yeah I better understand why maybe we didn't have this discussion before because we're talking about functionality. Of the data what that means is you can't take the voter rolls and turned into an absolute mess and send it out you may respond to that if a lot request but you presented in a form that doesn't make sense is not workable and not understandable that's what functionality means that's not functionality been able to take and utilize their software to manipulate the data how some other vendor wants to it's making sure that you get something that's actually usable to your point in the deluxe will just keep it on the road by the way this only deals with county records I'm not sure the statement prior to in one other clarification. I'm the sponsor I don't know who we keep referring to the sponsor but as far as I know I've never been to a court case about this committee there is represented to be so I'm not again I'm sponsor yes. What I would say is is to the problem you pointed out. On that and on that information. You would have like to request that and got it and you would like requesting that any usable format that made sense that wasn't all jumbled up in the right address is associated with the right name the right phone number whatever it may be right now that's what you want you want to be functional. This data in a given set at this data belongs to who. The county that's what was said it belongs to the council who paid for that who even paid for the software for us to be able to mine that data and put it in the form that they have you did. And we're saying that if let's just take vendors Out of this conversation as a whole let's get back to functionality you senator Clark wants to go record and make it right you know we're requests for information all these data subsets or whatever it may be. What we're saying is you're not using proprietary information he's doing as a citizen because he wants to see it. Now we don't have to give that to you in a functional usable format what makes absolutely no sense. So again I understand why we didn't want to have the discussion before this meeting because this bill you with the amendment clearly corrects the issue that they had at hand. It says As used in this section a common file format includes without limitation the American code a standard code for information interchange for lack large databases comma separated values that's just a data set and we're just making sure it's not a mess before we give it to the citizens there have the ability to request. Thank you. Anyone any other. Senator Clark you've question. Yes what. What storage format is proprietary and not to the storage with the the. The the fall top that it's in what is what's proprietary. Yes Sir the databases that are used today are relational databases with built in functionality those can be in any number of formats in our case one of the things that we don't like about the bill is that in the very beginning it request it forces us to put our to reveal our technology stack in one of the things the software companies certainly don't want to do is to tell their competitors what sort what technologies they're software is using and so with the file formats that we can export in is one thing but the file formats that it's stored in where the data is sitting in living and where the functionality resides those are we believe proprietary to the technology firm but I certainly do agree with the statement that the exported data the data that comes out certainly needs to come out in a standardized format in be usable and I can't speak for all technology firms in the state but certainly we do that today ours comes out in Microsoft excel and Microsoft access and it's perfectly usable and the evidence of that is our competitors are able to make use of and put it on the weapon and utilize it and so it to your specifically to your question we prefer not to reveal the data structures the actual software that's holding the information but we're good with revealing the exports that we can use you know things like Microsoft access or excel and things like that. So you have no problem with the data being exported in a usable format. That is correct Sir. It's the wording original that is the problem is that the only problem. It is one of the problems we have with the bill that the idea that we would have to reveal our technology stack in the beginning opening paragraph of the bill is concerning and I think that it's concerning to most technology companies and the I. this this concept of original is is confusing at the least well we certainly feel that replacing that or not you know not having to address the original format would get us to a better place here okay so I'm trying to get less confused so you have no problem with the mix Board then a usable format of usable non or K. it. Format. The and that the data belongs to the council. Of. The other arguments are heard were more of arguments about may be and I'm that I can see is good and all kinds of problems of whether we should ban on the cover of the commercial use of force for that information but I think we did that and a whole lot of the the data that you access online with either of. The. Okay but again you don't mind it exported usable format yes Sir eight and exported usable format a standard you know like today we use Microsoft excel and Microsoft access those are things that are well known and well utilized and of course we have lots of different requesters of that data and to our knowledge that's always been able to be used successfully by different types of requesters. The Senator Dismang why is that a problem that language well if you read the amendment which would be nice to be done before the meeting it actually strikes most of all this concerns if I'm hearing you correctly you almost agree with word for word everything that this bill does with the in the amended version. I mean I can't I can't I'm trying to recall everything that you've said that you didn't like about the bill that wasn't addressed in the amendment. And there's quite quite frankly nothing yeah actually senator that the first section of the bill is not amended that requires us to release our file formats and the section in the middle of the bill that speaks to original data format those were not amended to this point to my knowledge circuit city you don't travel that's strange the the county can't require you you're saying the county that pays you as a vendor with my dollars isn't allowed to ask can you provide the type of file format that you use that seems wild to me I'm I'm this is inappropriate when a system I mean what just went so this what you're saying is that the amendment does not address the data structure separate it does actually it has a good sense of it yes I think what he's saying in a I'll let you speak to it there's a a provision in the bill that says that it will all it does is allow the county official to request really what they're what the data structures that they utilized with the provider that they utilize to your point Senator Solomon and this is why this would be critical nothing's guaranteed on these contracts so they walk away tomorrow. We're saying that council doesn't have the right to know how the data is housed in what format that's. Should we have the basic core function as a county official don't you want to know that if they were to walk away tomorrow they go belly up that we don't have a big Mister Hanson NO one can derive with the what how the data was handle that seems. Highly inappropriate to me that's protection is amended best for going to argue against that and that's that you're allowed to control and have a contract that anyone knows. what it is that you have even though that's my information your information and everybody's information none of those circumstances are actually accurately stated you want to you want to talk about this yeah I do appreciate you bring that up Sir in in practice there's something called source code escrow that is basically an insurance where all of the source code and trade secrets are held within a third party and that third party holds all of that on behalf of the county and should anything happen to any of the technology company's certainly with apprentice all of that refers to the county as their property that protects them in those cases and that's it's a good example and that's the reason that that insurance is there and that helps us also meet Division legislative audit requirements that to hold those policies. Both. Senator Clark you're recognized what Senator Dismang said about if the in the contract of the data no longer being usable of that's fairly true is it not. Well this is it usable by the the subsequent Bender whose bid on the job and is done their own research and is sold the functionality of what they're bringing to the table then the data is aggregated by that provider in the format that the county selected by signing the new contract and there's provisions in the contract to allow the transition to flow from the previous to the new provider. Yeah I would just as senator that you know in you know my fourteen years of of working in this industry and apprentice has contracts in seventy two of the seventy five counties I would say it's just simply never happened there plenty of times that we lose contracts it's a competitive market place we we gain and we lose our competitors to as well and we transition the data to the competitor and I don't know of any example where any competitor of ours or anyone that I've been aware of is just not being able to do that and it just simply you know shuts the County Down that isn't something that happens because we all have a motive to maintain and keep you know winning these contracts in the future so you know because of the fact we're in a competitive free market environment we have plenty of incentive to make the county's happy and I would just note that we don't have any of the county officials that are concerned that are saying Hey I'm worried about the print is you know doing these malicious type of things or or even inadvertently doing them because we have their trust and confidence and and that's why they're not speaking so that doesn't mean anything to me. Having served on the quorum court. Of what the with the computer system at that time had nothing to do with yours. Where they they kept they kept all the older gentleman confused and we were very much dependent on them and the young thirty year old actually knew something about it there we were in recall the their trust doesn't mean anything to me so and then it may be well placed but. But Mister what will get him all the table of is Senator Dismang. It is I'm trying to figure out for all to be on this because you know I'm an equal opportunity scripted. What is it. That the I mean what's the reason for the bill what can. What cannot be gotten now that should be able to be and why. Well I mean functional data to his point at data that can be utilized by them and and let's be clear mean there talk about competitors and all this other stuff we'll talk about contracts counties but their competitors not opposed disclosing this information. I mean this is information so what you would like to have something on a statewide level that is easily you know that it's easy for the consumer to utilize to help track and follow what's happened was real estate records and we have that however was very difficult to obtain that information in a functional format to his point but again the bill goes along to try to stipulate that this prior entered into you know the. Their processes and all those sorts of things that's all still in house to get to keep that we're not trying to disclose those things but this is real estate is what this is about rules state that might even county records in general county or state records those is generally what yes Is bound and and. Good looking for access to the information that you go online and see. On a property by property basis or if you know how to utilize the data sets just looking at it over the weekend profit and this is where that it's all the and currently there's a problem. Getting that information getting that information in a usable format. And and what's the purpose for obtaining this information with a multiple reasons number one Mike said you have a platform to try to utilize or have a statewide database which incredibly valuable to people in the real estate field I mean I think that's predominately one of them and also it's a discussion we should have on how we disclose information through F. O. five it's a discussion it's been going on for quite some time that we send out PDS do we send out jumbled up excel spreadsheets that have no correlation to the proper fields for I mean do we let a private company dictate exactly what they're willing to disclose and how they're going to disclose it I think it's public information I think it should be usable and if you want to start your own company and and have that information made available the bill but he should be able to do that or if you as an individual want to pull everybody that scene your your county so that you can create your own list you should be able to do that and should be usable that information that you get should be used. Right and Joe said that in a. I had no problem with affected blown to the county is and the common file. Being released in a common file format is not a problem again there's there's the the data is it belongs to the council there's obviously no objection to the release of the that the data the data is being released routinely and in multiple file formats including electronic access files The Amendment this in front of you changes this language the the the the original version of the bill it line twenty nine and thirty said electronic public records provided under this subsection shall not include redacted proprietary or exempt data redacted proprietary or exempt is has been stricken. From by by the terms of this amendment this before the committee right now so we no longer in that by virtue of the amendment are making any bones about trying to protect proprietary information that's. You can see it on the last line of the amendment you look at the amendment here that's where that's because. Let's not. Well it's it's in I'm I'm not gonna argue. Again. I'm having a problem with the software argument. Because anybody in the business knows. That if you accidentally. You something that's too close to what somebody else is doing. You could spend a lot of common core. Right. What what let me but let me try to approach it this way and then and then we'll try to supplement with the technical answer. if you if you ask me. for data that I maintain on an excel spreadsheet. I can send you that spreadsheet. But what I can do is let you download. My excel program on your computer. Because if I allow you to do that I have violated the license agreement to Microsoft. When I purchased and downloaded excel. You would be required. To buy your own Microsoft excel license to view the data. At the core that's what we're really talking about here. What what data scout wants to do. Is they want to receive the same functionality of my excel without buying the X. without either developing or buying the excel license. I'm not sure. I mean look at this bill I'm still not seeing how they receive the functionality. In receiving the data. Well it's the language of accessibility and usability of the data if we again no I work. I'm sorry for interrupting but. Is your argument then that the counties paid for the license. So therefore they paid for creating the data. And that data scale is not paying for the license and is not paying for creating the data so they should have access to the data. Not exactly because you do there is access to the data the county to buy the software again participate by having a portable datable to all citizens to view all of the data with the association what we're really talking about is the bulk transfer of the data to a private enterprise who wants to sell it for this platform of real estate users in intent but again we're not talking about software really we're talking about double transfer instead of me individually you don't have a problem the individual as I did this weekend going on in looking at all this information you have a problem with the ball transfer because you're saying that they're taking advantage of our license that the county is using. I mean that that's really the argument is a non. Sir senator the we don't have an issue with the vote transfer of the data we do that today we make that available in its utilized today by a good number of companies we're concerned about attaching technology with the data and I think that's what this discussion is is about and The language in the bill seems to me and I'm not an attorney but it seems confusing enough that it could be used to attach some of our technology into that request when the words like usability functionality assess ability or are are are in here so that's that was what that concern was really too Sir but but here's my problem with that argument. My problem with that argument is that you could have met. With the proponents of the bill. And said here's here's the language we have problems with. Because again I have a problem you know what I hear whatever so I'm supposed to bill. Most things can be condensed down to plain language and I'm not hearing things condensed down to plain language I happen to have some rest with the subject and I'm still having to fight to get it down to plain language of. And the I don't think it's really that hard to understand I think it's more that we that we're trying to make it hard to understand and that makes me suspicious Senator Clark my response to that would be that that that this eleventh hour bill to change this law was was is is not in a silo. This this is the latest iteration of a dispute between two competitors that dates back almost ten years of data scout trying to get apprentices functionality and you can go online and look at the Supreme Court pinyin that was published in April of two thousand eighteen by the Arkansas Supreme Court addressing this this very same dispute and so when you if you adopt. And pass this bill they get signed into law dispute day one is what is the difference between proprietary software code and accessibility and usability of data and we start the litigation all over again with all the county struck into it. I'm afraid of all of the rule closer to the the fear factor. Again it's back to the plain language of what in the bill. Makes what in the bill causes them to be able to access your software and we both know to sizeable companies that if they do that if they actually access the software and use the software. Yeah I mean I'll thank you to be happy about it because you seem to you seem to really be a pretty good attorney so you you tell them you'll get on that scale right. What what what what a previous ones is is is not to have he. Have the legislature step in and can dictate what one competitor gives to another what we want to do is be able to go to the counties with our proprietary software and you know let the best designer wind and let everybody do their own already but no court's gonna let us give somebody it is not allow us to give. As co your software or building or vice versa of the and anybody who would even look at doing that would be a full thank you. One question that you know I've been listening all this. It just seems to me like that the The Amendment dresses what you're saying. Because it says the the member says the public records in a common file that does not disclose. The property prior to X. offer code of the third party electronic records re provider does not end pair this sensibility and usability of the data. The Amendment not address your concerns. Senator it does not because it is in fact the proprietary code that creates that accessibility and usability it's like saying is going to rain today but it's not. It either is or it's not and here it is the it is the proprietary code that creates the usability and the accessibility so we have a sentence that yes you know you know creates this order of protection when in fact it does not because it specifically says we can't impair the accessibility or usability so we're really saying to. Diametrically opposed things were saying the two items that are on the opposite ends of the spectrum in the same sentence. R. Germany eighty twenty more questions from committee. Saying none. We have no one signed up nearly speak for against the bill general you're excused thank you. Senator Dismang you're recognized close. I mean in some ways I think the testimony today helped it with what we're talking about essentially what you heard was is that that data cannot be released to you in a way that usable for you so again it's just want to pull it back down to the voting rolls not sort of thing what they're saying is that data set is proprietary to them giving everyone the leeway that they want to be able to say no we're not going to disclose that or I'll just give you a PDF copy or I'll give it to you in whatever form I want to that's not usable for you this is your information this is information to make available publicly should be made available to public public in a usable form. Hi I don't understand a lot of the discussion or maybe that we should read the amendment and what it does but I I mean from what I heard it. It remedies every concern that was there that's reason when I present in the moment I thought we would have something that everybody and said Hey this all looks good let's move for. And it's not just limited to them this is this also is imposed on their own competitors do you know the folks that are on the other side of this that want this information be made available not just to them but to the public. So with that I I appreciate the dialogue it it lasts a little longer than I thought it would today couple surprises and with that I appreciate a good vote thank you. Our. This means closed. A chair would recognize a motion. I have a motion. Sam Nunn and dismaying Bills. Senator Clark we have a motion to pass to. As amended. We have a motion to pass as amended Senator Clark. The second. I have a second Senator Flippo. All right any discussion on the motion. All those voters say aye. Yes. The. The Stubblefield Mr it appears to me that. There's two issues here one of the bill and one of not in the bill of I can't find a software issue in the bill. At the end that they presented to me. What it appears to be. Is a print us. Is got a license with the counties as. Putting data out there. Of data scout says it's out there itself allowable we ought to be able to obtain it in a usable format. because it belongs to the council. Apprentice and I think they have a logical argument I don't think they made it but they have a logical argument that if data scale is going to be getting the product of our work they ought to have to have a license to get the product of our work and that might be a bill that says if you're going to have mass downloads from that that comes from software that of the that is. And I don't have the language at the moment but of that is putting data together of that work requires software loss is not some kind of simple. the and maybe they have a fairness argument and that and they may be correct I don't think that's in this bill of and so but I that appears to me after all the. Not the answer is a non answers appear to be the real argument and for that reason for this bill I have a problem with the remote if somebody brought a bill that said. downloading for commercial use if there's. Of if there's a lot of from Lawson software that's doing something. That's not just of not just the data I concede I can see how that might be a good bill also. indiscretion Senator Solomon. You know we had a recent I think last year with DHS we are two years ago we changed software vendors and you know that the company that left I did not stay and help us transfer the data over and we sue them for millions of dollars I understand the problem I think that yeah I'm I'm still struggling with yeah with how that has a prior Terry proprietary information move over because as the as a company testified you can get that information now in a spreadsheet and access in all kinds of formats to make it you can use it anywhere you want so I'm I'm just I'm struggling with that I'm just not comfortable at this point with my limited knowledge of moving forward with that less or some kind of a in a stipulation in the with legislative pretend tent not even know what that would say and I understand we're at a time frame here that may not be able to happen I'm just not comfortable with making that move right now. we've motion for committee motion do pass as amended we have second all of favour say aye. All opposed. Senator Dismang you will fails I think Mr. All right. We have a. Committee we you have a bill on your desk sixteen sixty but I just found out about last night it has been here for months. We're gonna bring it to you that's what they shouldn't take but a minute. Sexual here. By the way I need without objection we will hear this bill because it was just brought this morning. The space to the house about a month ago that didn't know what was here. Anyone here from the Municipal League. Okay. Terry. Mr would you like me to write three six seventy nine for center to. Six seventy five six seven nine six seventy nine percent two years ago run that what is said that the additional excise. Where you're recognized president house bill sixteen sixty I apologize Committee this this bill was passed to the house a month ago and I didn't even know it till I went to chamber last night was represented Bentley she told me to she passed what what the hold up down here. Really all this bill does when you read it all it does is give the city council of. Of the first appeal and then it goes to the then it can go and go the circuit Clerk it adds himself just as an enemy or appeal to that whole process. Mister chair for state to make a motion to suspend the rules the Bill. blue we do Mr so moved did you okay all the chairman did say well that of January I'm sorry did not. The sale. US okay question for the committee. Let me say this deal allows the of the board of adjustments to go and people to the circuit court it just puts the city council in the middle where that compel of that appeal can be heard first if they want to hear it. Senator Johnson and by the way the witness please therefore this. Thank you for this. Senator Stubblefield this is limited to the municipal board of adjustment yes so it's not the County Board no submission so it's just it's it and try city issue that's right okay thank you thank you Mr. Any other questions. If not anyone here speak for against the bill. It's not Senator to be recognized oppose the bill I'm close I'm close machine thank you and I would make a motion to pass do pass up second from Central salone favor I. Opposed. Gradually she passed Senate house bill sixteen sixteen. Senator Clark you still run Senator takes bill. Just wanna say no other business we're Jr. For.