Judiciary Committee - Senate

Thank you Mr chairman state senator Dave Wallace district twenty two okay Sir Wallace would you put your mind just a little bit closer. It was called there for just a second okay. You may okay now Sir yes Sir thank you. Members I'd bet present this bill last week so I will make this an abbreviated version of what I did last week I pulled a bill down last week to give. US senator Gardner a chance to look at it he has looked at it I believe the senator garner is good with the amendments that we've made I also get some answers for the questions of Senator Hendren and I think the server Hendren has seen those answers and may still not agree with everything but I believe I have got the your questions answered to the best of that could. Members this bill. It's not about trial lawyers about victims. This bill will make Arkansas safer place for children for disabled individuals. It will avoid child abuse. Six views. That remind you that one out of every five females and one of every thirteen boys FOR sexually assaulted before they're eighteen years old. Yet studies show. That the average age of disclosure of child abuse. This age fifty two and I promise state of Arkansas is our statue of limitations is at age twenty one. Since I came up with this bill I've had numerous. Adult. To me. I've had grown men. For six years stand outside. With tears in their eyes tell me they could not come in this room it was too traumatic for them. And then ask for the support of this bill hunt for support of what they have gone through. We'll talk about this bill. Being unfair. Because retroactivity is unfair. But I ask you what about due process for about due process for the. Young children have been injured. Sexually abused and have had to carry that their entire adult life. Opponents will say that the court cases will be flooded with cases with cases that's just not true. In New York instead of eight million has said only five thousand claims no less than half of those. Let's listen half percent of the population. California with a population of forty million has had only. Eleven hundred and fifty claims. Members this building again it's not about trial lawyers. It's about the victims and with that I will stand by for your questions. Senator Garner you're recognized for a question Davis Sherman yeah I greatly appreciate the changes you made we made that much more narrow in scope so that only covers always really traumatic experiences which I think will cover the vast majority of people that you're talking about allow them to get restitution center honestly if. Somebody up entity or party set by let this happen and it's clear evidence that even forty years later they should be held accountable thank you senator Wallace thank you Sir. Any other questions from members of committee. Sir anybody here to speak for or against no. Okay what's the will of committee. A motion and second any discussion all in favor say aye. Oppose motion carried graduations are awesome. Okay. Senator Leding. I understand you've got one non controversial one that might have a little discussion as to Senate bill five ninety two or Senate bill. Yeah five ninety two first the R. six fifty two sorry. The. Okay all right to. Do we have anybody here well let's go ahead and go to your next one then Senator Leding Senate bill. Sixty five ninety one. And I know we have people here to speak on this one so well that deal with that. Or. We are doing five ninety one so Senator Leding if you would state your name for the record and who you have with you they would you're recognized to present five ninety one. Thank you Mr chairman committee state senator Greg Leding district for not let my considers herself before I begin. My name is Laura berry I'm a former juvenile lifer that was released under ACT five thirty nine and twenty seventeen. The Committee I will be my presentation because we do have a number of people here to speak in support of the bill and we have a long agenda. The fourteen Senator Missy Irvin and I began working on legislation in juvenile life without parole here in Arkansas rentable twenty fifteen that unfortunately came up short but we work together together again in twenty seventeen and were ultimately able to get a bill passed thanks to support from Britain for Becca Petty a former lawmaker from Rogers who tragically lost her daughter to bootleggers and use before she opposed the effort in twenty fifteen but in trying to gain support for the legislation in twenty seventeen we brought a woman up from Texas and Dr Linda white who had also tragically lost her daughter in the nineteen eighties and struggle with for many years became the champion what she calls restorative justice finding ways to move beyond blame and help to find a way to get people an Avenue back to playing a productive role in society and so I was honored to be part of an hourlong conversation between those two women is one of the most powerful hours I've experienced in my decade as a legislator and really again able to pass that bill in twenty seventeen. In the law as a result is one of inmates who was freed as a result of that legislation passed it wide to eighteen years and younger but we're trying to do with Senate bill five ninety one is increased to include nineteen and twenty year olds we know that from science our branches are really fully developed until about the age of twenty five and so a lot of times children who committed crimes don't fully understand the long term consequences and we don't necessarily believe that while someone should absolutely serve an appropriate punishment for a crime that someone who commits a crime that fourteen fifteen sixteen shouldn't necessarily be locked away for the rest of their life and so with that I'm going to let law and share her story. Thank you so I was incarcerated at the age of seventeen for Having knowledge and having a small part in a crime that won't lead to take in the life of somebody That not only destroyed. That family my family myself. But the community as a whole it destroyed a lot of people during my incarceration I was sexually assaulted and got pregnant and had a child and while I was pregnant with that child. At that point I turn my life around and decided I wanted to be a better person for that little human but also be a better person and start changing lives for other people so from that point forward I started changing who I was trying to get the education as much education as I could which if you're sentenced to life you don't have an opportunity for education so you have to go out look for it is not. Offered to you like somebody who has a parole date. And like grades grades that in twenty fifteen I started mentoring younger inmates as they came in with a mentor for many years inside and when the bill came up in twenty fifteen I saw that as my second chance. It was shot down in twenty eight twenty seventeen I was given that second chance when that happened I was a mentor at that time and have been for years of other people I came home in December of twenty seventeen and about sixty days in summer. Being home I started a program called the five thirty Niners which was based on at five thirty nine and I started finding support for other former juvenile lifers that would follow me home and all the obstacles that we face moving forward from that I became involved with the campaign for fair sentence in a youth and washing DC I'm the regional connector for them and have been for three years now I work with human rights for kids in Washington DC I'm an employee a paid employee now with the carts are eight and I've been with them for about a year I also hold a full time job in a. Alien dollar company or I'm supervisor and getting ready to move into management so I know it's possible to become a different person. Instead of seeing me for the worst mistake I've ever made. People growing people change when their brain starts to develop and they're able to. See short term decisions and how they're going to be long term effects not just on their sales but on other people having said that in the State of Arkansas right now. That's what you can't buy tobacco into your the age of twenty one you can't buy alcohol you can not gambling casino can't rent a car to your twenty five there are many laws just here in Arkansas that prohibit you from doing those things till the age of twenty one so if people can't make small decisions like that and to the age of twenty one how can we hold somebody accountable. And make them die in prison for something they did before the age of twenty one. Everybody is not a product of their worst mistake. And I just like to say this is not a get out jail free card. We have many people in the Arkansas department of corrections right now who goes before the boards who are eligible under the under the current act that had been denied parole because of their actions on the inside so you have to have shown not just a change after the bill goes into effect but you have to have shown. But change over the years for the board to give you the second chance to come home. And with that I just say thank you. Okay Senator Leding if you finish presenting your yes we can move to the test I know we'll have forty games just a minute we got a couple questions here first sent Senator Rice you're recognized for a question. Thank you your name again Laura berry laurel thank you for coming to appreciate you sharing your story and I appreciate the success that. You are showing a no that means a lot. And many my questions don't minimize anything that that you don't understand center may I I would ask you this. there is there is a pretty big push. Four people devoted to age sixteen how do you balance what we're looking at here in saying that that you can make important decisions. At a lesser age but let's not hold anybody accountable. I would say that when we are thinking about who's going to vote for that is usually a process that plays out over a longer period of time with this and deliberation your way in different things where is oftentimes the crimes that are committed that end up sending people to prison are rash acts that have been in the heat of the moment and while they may be violent and they do deserve to serve some sort of punishment for that acting out in the heat of the moment isn't necessarily a reason to be locked away for the rest of your life if you are a child. What I appreciate your answers they they they. They're just a problem there for me going to. Thank you Sir I realize I'm getting I'm not getting there I am now it's just come a lot quicker than I thought. But I got married when I was eighteen years and ten days old and been back in for two years before that. Started family two years later. That that may not be the norm. Now. Because I used to see maturity at a younger age. And I realize that. But what I rest within a citizen committee before. We promote violent video games. The movies. We promote all the stuff we pass more out all bills in this section that ever believed. And we promote all let. And now we're saying forgiveness forgiveness forgive us and you know there is some point you're accountable. You know are these kids that the turnaround of murder somebody in it will hit the reset button what they do on a video game it is a. Is a worthy thought but it doesn't hold water. So again I don't want to minimize anything you said you're you're welcome to ensure that that's what I'm wrestling. Okay and I just want to say it's not a an automatic reset button for them to be just exonerated from what they've done there is an accountability they're gonna have to serve at least twenty five to thirty years in prison before they would ever be seen for the first time before the parole board so it's not going to be a reset where they automatically get that second chance also moving forward through their prison sentence they have to show a growth and accountability over those years in order to be even considered by the parole board because you have to be a certain class status to get to that point and then the parole board they look at a lot more factors under this act then they do a normal act and they look at mental health state they have you check for mental health I was I did a mental health evaluation I was seen by psychologists. I was given psychological tests I went through a lot before I ever saw the parole board so it's not just a reset button and you're free to go they have a very lengthy process to go through the parole process for at five thirty nine is even more in depth than just a regular parole process so they're not going to get just a slap on the hand and get to move forward with their lives they have to show an extended propensity for change before they're ever considered. Sure I have of this state one second again thank you for being a appreciate your story and and everybody that's working towards that. I remember when my dad served in the legislature took me about two young sons were two young disposed to get to go from school but they got to go because state representative to. And we want to the prison. In one of the people that I met Was Willie way. An hour later I don't know how to meet ministration he was a trustee in it but we actually got a whatever happened to me to get rolling now and I remember his test his testimony in the meeting we had and in the store and was impressed with I've always had a compassion for people who want to do better yes I just give them to but Pavel work for I feel like you've done that I appreciate it I'm still wrestling with the thank you bye jumping around I tell the chairman I'm going to run the build ups upstairs when I get a text but I'll be back thank you. Okay thanks in rice senator garner you're recognized for a question thank you I think I'll go on the few people voted against that law the change back in two thousand seventeen I'll tell you why. There's a case in Columbia County Arkansas. Where fifteen year old boy. Grabbed his pregnant sixteen year old girl for an. He took a metal bar and beer over the head over and over and over again many took a car and ran her over. He day before buried but made a shallow grave to bear your and because she was pregnant. He went there any buried this girl not only the girl her unborn child that happened. Because of the law we passed. That woman's family had to be dragged back in court. They had to go through that pain and suffering a number in oracle about it was she says I'm sorry. What happened to your baby in here to go to jail but I don't get to see my baby anymore you do. And now because of the way this law is written every single person from eighteen to twenty one years old to have a life without parole or death sentence we have to be re sentence in the state of Arkansas I don't know that number. But let's say aye dozens and dozens and dozens can be brought for to have to have this happen to again be resentenced that's something I just cannot accept putting those family back there and I know you shaking your head no point to this section as far read about because I read a few times make sure I read it right. Section on page one two section three except provided under 16-93-619 act two one for an offense committed before on or after the effective date of this act. So before the effective date of this act that would be a massive you because it's similar to the more data for not allow it in the past my incorrect about that yes Sir so there's two different situations okay there was a U. S. Supreme Court ruling that allowed people who were sentenced to life without parole to be resentenced go before the courts can be resentenced and those people were actually released most of them without any type of parole at all because they were resentenced in the course and they were released and are out and most of them doing extremely well and I can't think of one that has been sent back that's the that's I believe the K. sure talking about what we're talking about today is actually a chance for parole so that people who receive a chance for parole simply go before the parole board it is not a resentencing you come out you're on a lifetime of parole you can be considered after five years if you've done. Good have not done anything wrong have not gone anymore on your problem then you can be considered for a discharge however it's two separate laws. The U. S. Supreme Court ruling was nation wide we'll United States wide and it provided people all across the United States if they were under eighteen and serving a life without parole sentence to petition the courts and they had to have another court hearing so instead of going to a court now you have to have the same kind of procedure just in a Perot so come explain it though have to relive that in a pro situation for violent terrible murders that's. One no question about the guilt or innocence it's clear as day two is a horrific murder or the people may be brought back those people who are legal adults in every sense the work except for a few very minor exceptions will be able to get out of prison potentially no Sir and actually the parole board does expect you to take full accountability for your crime we had a guy who had been incarcerated forty years you went to the parole board three times he could not bring himself to say that he committed the crime and accept accountability so he continued to be denied parole okay so you do have to accept accountability for what you've done okay any other questions members of the committee. Okay we're gonna go to for and against now since we kinda had to miss Perry for will start with the against so Lori employers to the prosecuting association that you're recognized come speak against and then we'll proceed with back and forth. Mr chairman members of the committee on Laurie can sure as some the deputy prosecutor coordinator and I'm here on behalf of the Arkansas prosecuting attorneys association this morning to speak in opposition to Senate bill five ninety one just a couple of things I wanted to mention the prosecuting attorneys as Senator Leding mentioned a bill that passed I think it was in twenty seventeen the fair sentencing of miners Act that legislation was passed so that Arkansas would be in compliance with Miller versus Alabama which is the United States Supreme Court case that came down in two thousand and twelve in that situation we had to go back and amend the law to where anyone under eighteen was could not get a life without parole sentence since that time all those Miller defendants have had to be re sentenced in a senator garner pointed out that has been very traumatic for the families of the victims because they thought of the persons who killed their loved one was incarcerated for life and then several prosecutors around the state about to go through cases where those families have been brought back into court and resend Singh has happened our laws now in compliance with the United States Supreme Court precedent so we have a real concern about amending this now to include people between the ages of eighteen and twenty one Senator Garner mentioned a horrible case that happened and unfortunately what prosecutors have seen a lot of cases were very young defendants commit some very heinous crimes and if the committee will indulge me I will give some information on a particular case that much like the one Senator Garner mention this is the case it would not be affected by this act but there's many like this that could be this is a the facts of a case involving I'm what we call Miller defendant so someone who who had to be re sentenced under that precedent which again we I know you may only be before the parole board. But for the families of the victims the trauma can be the same in this particular case and it was up in northwest Arkansas the defendant who was fifteen years old at the time looted four year old girl into the woods promising to help her catch butterflies committee jammed a broken stick into Regina and Craster school with the forty pound boulder now well this wouldn't affect him there's cases like this they're sadly there they are very traumatic for everyone involved but when you just start amending the law to increase the age at which someone can receive adult sentences you know you would never think that a fifteen year old could do something quite that heinous sadly and unfortunately through the years prosecuting attorneys have seen more than one case like this and we are all for second chances we are all four people have an opportunity to turn the lights around and be productive citizens but we just think that this particular bill goes too far and extending that age to twenty one. Okay thank you any questions. Senator Garner you're recognized thank you I know it's more like family law code but generally in Arkansas and said peace and unless there's a specific exception alcohol tobacco we universally recognized at the age of eighteen is when you consider doll in almost every single case younger that consider minor after that you consider it an adult is that correct. Yes that's my understanding and so this would be a substantial change to the Norman Arkansas. It comes to criminal sentencing and everything else that correct I believe it would yes Sir thank you. Right any other for further questions. Okay thank you all right for I'll tell you we have one two three. I don't know six or seven we're gonna try to let everybody speak but the ability to do that's going to depend on how long so I ask you all to try not to repeat but also convey the message you want to convey in as quickly and as quick as possible because we may have some questions so the first one is a. Ayla supreme yeah. Yes Sir if you just have a seat at the end of the table and state your name for the record you are recognized to speak for the bill. Thank you Sir my name is Melissa the Supreme and I am with the ninety nine more lobbyist group. You're recognized thank you Sir. On the road. Digit is your Mike on their. I see okay may I have a good now okay I wanna make sure that everybody can hear. As I see it right here and I look around me I can't help but think of the individual that was not our dispatcher deputies sitting in a place full of people today looks nothing like him and with the fact that he is fresh out of slavery and the silencer for his people that are still in slavery. The reason why I bring that up because here in Arkansas yeah I have child going on in the salute you. Can you tell me that you want to put in the same category at the twenty three year old. You got the same category of the twenty one year old. How was a I was a logical. You have if they had ever going on in his mind whatever childhood trauma that he has going on a C. has going on in the act out in that moment. One bad choice in the main purpose for the rest of their life why do I keep using the terms laid well one of the other problems I had with the fact that child okay you mates and so people the secretary. They are grown and they haven't slowed mentality and then when they come out after thirty in forty fifty years of dating individuals to let them out of prison after a mistake they made at the child. Okay because they can move forward yeah we were supposed to be forgiven these. The people of second chances how do not give a child a second chains. See we don't we don't have a problem with the into it actually affects us the end of the now it's as though it's and you've never been incarcerated now you do have a foster care nine times out of ten insecurities into mental illness is that the individual was they call the committee's Haney's acts of instead of dealing with them on a mental health level use these people to prison for the rest of their lives sure. Is this I sit here marks intellectual regain bangs and I listen to you debate about the license to return these is that we're talking about. Yes they do whatever they fifteen sixteen. K. Ferguson sixteen. There for fifteen sixty use for something that they deliver fifteen. There was a sign what you're gonna say that you raise our way. I didn't have that bring you. Now would. Thank you. Thank you Mr spring any questions. All right of first senator Johnson you're recognized for a question. Create your testimony. Are you saying the choices that you and others have made it is different because of your circumstances. Or or are you saying the ability to make good choices are bad choices. We in the United States we have the opportunity. I come from I come from the time you don't even have a single area even pharmacy care and. Mental health conditions that dictate the rest of your life I'm thirty five years old I believe this is the my entire life I still would be issues that call for the care and the majority of these individuals have been molested to stall on the street in some shape form or fashion S. during and they are mad at the rate of any act out on the. But the choices that we make it matters not. background. Or or our culture or our. Our colors. These. We say the matter is not. However if you just simply do the research the end of that I have a motion in today's society are the ones that did not have the opportunity the one that didn't have that thing that you're talking about date date date that statements with we don't have a choice everybody has to do or not to do that that's simple however what the tax which is that to have you either want to do this right to provide you with the family. Of the individual that was nineteen when went to prison and his wife just had their second child and he just lost his job I have a second child he's nineteen years old and you want to be a father and he panics and. Robert in order to provide for his wife in the insurgent do you know what his role was to write down Census plus thirty days for for just a robbery. These are the type of cases that that all wrapped in the twine into these pages see I hear about all these cases they they called individuals into line inside those things did you have a weapon. In that robbery our duty shoot someone. No one was harmed. With with some people and. We have sentences plus thirties thanks. Thank you. Okay Senator Stubblefield you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman okay that situation you just described was German broken into and robbed a store what have. What if he had killed both of the people at the at the convenience store what he had shot and killed them do you think you Senator should have been different. Well I say this is another problem if you want to without a license to Indian you then you should at least have the sentencing guidelines with a license to stop that fifteen twenty twenty five years old there are many problems wrong with with this scenario the main being that if you want to send this to a child cynicism is a child not as an adult. Do you have do you have any children. I have a seventeen year that I just found out exists for the first time because our team was in prison I have a thirteen year old child with with my wife back here and I teach each and every single one of them I have a multitude to choose in the call me father they called me can they call me Big Brother and I go into these neighborhoods and I'll talk about the with the saints of the I'll talk about me right now except when I give it to them out to about the choices and I let them know that you don't have to allow them to want to dictate that allow us to be so quick to judge the you know we're not going to put in the same departamento they when they're young so do we have to have these conversations. So so you have a seventeen year old daughter that you've established a relationship with him you love her very much. So it if if my let's just say I had a son that was fifteen and he killed. Hey misli brutally killed your seventeen year old daughter. You think you should be eligible for parole in twenty years. It's so individual that was molested twice at the time I'm not met so Eads after after a certain amount of time that child should not be that man should not be as responsible for those things if you commit those things at the time sinuses twenty five been what we to debate which is given to our team my son like a video I saw the other day of the war a fourteen year old boy killed two elderly women and when they sentenced him in court if they were taking him out of the court they sent him to live as they were taking him out he said I wish I had killed more so. Thank do you think that that that individual should be up for parole in twenty years. Is only improving sayings and I think he was fourteen fifteen years old then he should at least have the ability to pay. Yes limited VS prove himself thing is one nine let me ask you another question yes Sir. What about what about the father in the homes that have no fathers and what role does that play in a lot of these the situation Q. two. Q. how huge I just love one of my little white guys the minute I mentor him is name is sunny sixteen years old and his father who was killed means like two or three and he were bills against his marbles so much but he respects any little thing I say. So if I say something he does it and so what is my to calling about his call I saw your mom Siegel duties any do with it the majority of these children are missing date the dominance that they understand that they must bow down to see the law this dominance of like the father feet this is this the mother single weapon so the policy has to be done or if not it's it's not gonna work right do you know do you know if this is the fact in. All psychologists have studied this for years that. The father. Two little child is the first person they think is god thanks to father Dominique's not the mother the father so when the father is absent in that child exposed to all kinds of. sales he said it feels if Daddy there to correct that child. Then why are we dealing with the root of the problem and keep in try to keep fathers at home to raise their kids what we do and are you working on that yes the reason why I was born I'm here for that. I don't I don't have to be right now do you think is true across the country yes one percent at home yes that was that a sample of his mom use to teach your kids what's right and what's wrong yes. Our country needs to come back to go okay I think we're getting a little bit off the I believe I believe our country needs to open up to the fact that opportunity to raise their children religion has nothing to do with it is about the parenting at home if you parents or child you parents house today we'll get to the situations you don't think religion has the right to do it. Trying to challenge what is she going to tell would he will not depart sensitive areas and and and and our environment that we live in this this gentleman here spoke so about early on we are raised in a society today what to the raising this is out today with video games dominate music dominates what I listen to on the radio one of the Watson on the video games and so when they go in the act out like these how can we speak anything different you know we got a whole bunch of stuff that they need to be changed but the first they need to be changed as we need to treat these children like children instead of adults. Thank you senator Clark of those incidents more children that's why I'm here okay. That's all we have for questions to Mr spring thank you for your outstanding testimony to a fantastic job okay now we have about six or seven more for so again not just to the sprint presenters but to the members of the committee we want to get through this let's try to keep the questions you know. Free from the point next we have the. Canton Jackson. Mister Jackson you're recognized state your name for the record we glad to have you today. Jackson Little Rock Arkansas would nineand will. Into a one on okay you're recognized. I make you sure but. I'm six years old now. And I guarantee you that when I was fifteen sixteen seventeen years old now dealing with it I got a fourteen year old son and I'm raising of that I have to participate I got a forty year olds on. You know what the world is changing it is just hard did did did close me and can sit here. And so that she can. Service the life in prison and I know he has to be accountable I'm acceptance but I guarantee you that is right now I would not do what I did when I was a child. Simply as all of that okay any questions Senator Johnson you're recognized for a question. I mean as a state sitting in this seat we have to we have to make things the same across the board and there has to be appointed and he gives reference to the nineteen year old. That same decision can be made by the twenty one year old or the twenty two year old in the same circumstances that he came out of and your rat I don't make the same choices now than if the and. And I mean we've got a we've got to create strong. Society is strong cities strong neighborhoods and strong families. And I think that's what has to happen for this thing to change is it this is a a a a change in time and and saying bad choices can be happening at twenty three. As at eighteen and you know we're sitting here have have to put that number on and then you know the circumstances it can happen at any point time to anybody and you know but but but I just thank you to our research should should be while work queues at early age not and not for when you get twenty one it goes serve in the military. Which you wish to reach out what you're doing is a need for more positive thing how many how many times do you allow cheese to come and see in stages right gives Turner was going on in the session how many opportunities do do do do people do you in the neighborhood down the street no was going on the parties this is the first time I will miss it in the situation. And I'm speed in your reserve I don't know what. Did you we got to find a solution zero no this is this is this is all solve some for someone on down the road but we need to we need to choose to do your job earlier I used summary we talking about now about what to do maybe they don't what we should be sure that a more positive I'm O. positive all. Four may be sitting right here and one each year that's the problem I mean we got as. You know this plans this is amended to some kids come opening in what you. I have to say try to try to get somebody input all bills some input in them so when they get older. They could do this thing it just just now we put our everybody's back there that might be nervous we put our pants on just like what so for his own don't be nervous we appreciate your time to come and testify right thank you well I'm also a military man I was raised in the house were no man. I mean you know uploading a lot of these care or categories in stereo types but right now today. I thank god will spare me from a lot of the things that could go wrong and and and all the bad things that I route about somebody's carries it we got think about did Milosevic's will a lot of people deal with a lot of mental problems and everything and we soon isn't what do you get all the time we have we and with that I'm to okay thank you Mr action thanks we have Mr Kip Brown. Want more misprinted the just the state your name into the mix of the microphones on there you're recognized. Push the button in the middle. Okay good health. My name is Kim brown. what these always as a little boy out was a paging is building my grandmother rose Marie brown she retired at the so many years of working here with the Secretary of State. In is a little more I ran around he would from one office to the next medium other relatives and other people to keep that they hired to do that. And I one day almost I want them to be in his speaking one of the rooms and I was a little boy. In Alabama Senate speaking. Well unfortunately state of Arkansas. I am today I am a the state licensed contractor HVAC contractor I have my own HVAC school and have to have people getting jobs and train them on a to be a supply house I'm a realtor own about almost a million I would real estate property here locally in state is it in the right to surrounding area on about seven different companies. But. Can I do anything and everything I can for my family and my community so it is a my first rodeo. But I'm here today for this bill I'm here with this gentleman is see it in a hurry I missed the other guy he left I guess he had to step out Garner I guess but I want to say it is I spent fourteen years seven once in the state penitentiary now yeah. I went to prison for two counts a it two counts of capital murder five a give me to rob is in fact is a property how Hillman he talked me out of the apple be like to bang. How it happened. It is for a down the line. While I was in there you D.. I am one the people that all your programs twice so many programs that I created three programs India. But. To educate meeting that came out who gets what I mean I'm a I'm a fool contract for any of the Arkansas the long was one running contract in the images of this program I've done more act in business free through entity any other person or business in the state of Arkansas. And I'm prepared to have a lot of these guys if you let him out and trying to. So how could opposing go from being involved with capital murder is heated five bigamy to Robbie the fat that the property to being a businessman educator philanthropist in a social activist if I'm going to five feet what I did in the same plaza eight. The man is still doing today. That's what this about. If we protect human life with the protective fences that is similar to protect the people in their life that's alive to the need to be value even though they may have done some goofy stuff. We meant to raise the bill or is it seems what was that I read. This is a youthful offenders bill Sir when out of the old man with gray hair by hand it. Gazaway body near the sentence in nineteen seventy two. That alone is going to review Senate brought. With the president for robbing a pizza party shot him in other to do that in the murder charges that Meeks. This is now some of a million five the number you need to do to it. I'm not advocating nobody get out blockbuster meditative commute about my father now I got two beautiful keys savings god is for you guys. I do not understand something this is a great democracy in America. Without the penitentiary of user. Eleven. What if you get a second chance in all country with federal vacancies wins out of the now of the user. So we got we got a problem here we got some. Be used today they may not have been that bad go back did I wouldn't. I do. Right now all. Any committee I wanted people to get caught up in any. I. One. All the people have given. The people. They will. You will. It was an opportunity here we came look at what they do it's okay sis over here at the call of a market so that the call of the mills. What order they would accept that mean in a state of. Some. Thank you want to know about on the back you. On the back in with people that can help us with these guys because they would do it. With big bill C. the big book of Alcoholics each one teach one I gotta get another guy so when it the guy can get with state state. So we got to come we got to we got to do we got the ball to be our we a wiki all anybody. Some small when you get about the joy of this bill I don't know what caused the Great. What all you know. The Bill. This. They do. One thing I'm. Rick what is giving you. When it came to do I thank you all for your tax. Thank you Mr brown we got the question here senator Johnson you're recognized. How old were you whenever you committed I was nineteen years old. I was nineteen years old me and the young man out it was nineteen eighteen seventeen sixteen fifteen or twenty it was something like that all of the right there to go the classic case for my back I just turned twenty we go back and get an older model see the fat. If I'm twenty nineteen the other guy the guy seventeen in the other guy because sixteen all of us in the lead up looking like them this. Keys that in the coffee. I. Now it is one of those that was involved in St double homicide in nineteen ninety. If the bed Betty it's not in the back you know that at home. Bring that up none of us had a day at home. I would also enjoy being thank you say bill does not it does not end with the program most people. When the rap music not as I'm going to be to get mixed up may. But when the light came on in my head when I was the president. Well they might. In the third. So. What's to be better if you what is it like you. It's have been. And I was saying is if you pass this bill you're going to is a youthful offender but it made does save lives. Who's in all women in all fields B. U.. The prison when they were in this thing is in that in in the nineties out if you do know it again now yeah we need to look at it. What we need we need people that can come out it contribute to the Senate. We will now but we have a black we have a black males if you is and we got some does that they'll come out here it is the we made me think we can. This year. We will. Bills. We're talking about. What we thank you so. The notice that you may not come back. That would be the committee is so many things in order to become an American. The Federal. What would. It. We. In the young people who grew. Due to do to get out. You need to be is beat them all menu pamphlet and the Senate that the U. V.'s one with the old self. So yeah I'll come back in the building yes all right I had to bill from protest a Committee game. All right thank you Mr. Okay next we have John trouble. Okay. I'm sorry that's for different bill. In Dane date justice had been served even though today I still would be looked at as that felon however even before I was released I had gainful employment because I learned how to ride arrested resume I had obtained several. Diplomas degrees. Awards TV kids I am not you need they are not you need there's many of us out here I have a following of all thousand five hundred returning citizens who are business owners who are community leaders only have been out of prison just a few days compared to the twenty one and a half years that I served inside of those walls the services that I did receive inside of the department of corrections I utilize those as well when I became eligible to go inside of those programs I attended each and every last one of them over and over and over again in anticipation for this day. I am not unique not at all we're not accessing for those people those children to be exonerated now they should be held accountable but some oversight needs to happen. They came in at a deficit. It's going to help them the person who helped me was Laura berry at the time when I walk through those doors still twenty one and a half years ago she told me up from the end and mentored me still to this day. Today I am also promoted in my job I work for nonprofit. That saves lives. I mean management now Friday I'll close all my own home. I am not you need. I have my driver's license I have not violated one point of my parole I have traveled extensively I am not you need. I am a product of what you guys the policies yeah I'll set up we are a you need of rehabilitation and I am successful so therefore you are successful we're just acting for the other children to have a chance at this process. With that okay is. Any questions for ms Jones. Johnson. Of. If not thank you. Johnson all I'm sorry Senator Johnson. So I mean that there there's been each one has spoken spoke of the circumstances that brought you to those decisions. How do you feel if. It was. Someone that was raised in a stable situation. And what what you would give what I would consider a brat. At age. At age nineteen. Did that same thing. Would you have that same compassion. About that brat that has been given everything. And committed some of the same crimes would you have that same feeling about that person. Being given given this because of a just a number Wetherby eighteen or twenty. I understand your question and thank you for your question Sir. Sir David brat we'll have we'll have to be submitted to the same rehabilitative efforts that I had to go on undergo it doesn't matter class it doesn't matters socio economic status none of this matters and that's not what's on the table that branch when needed eighteen or nineteen or under twenty one he will be forty when he's up for parole we're not talking about children anymore we're presenting a bill about children with the children will be adult by the time they're up to be considered for parole by your existing parole board who have been there for several years and they know what they're doing and they know what to look for any individual who comes before them that's what we're asking you to do is to trust your people they're not going to release somebody back to society if they hadn't shown improvement we're not talking about the nineteen year old who had his life handed to him and he goes to prison for two days and come home no the nineteen year old will be fifty fifty nine for more. And I don't think any fifty nine year old or more in here is able to even run as fast as he was at nineteen. I mean seriously so we're Digest working mixing up the things yes I had to be held accountable no I can never bring that life back but I can work hard to a tone to make the one that I am left with means something. Thank you. Other questions from the committee. Seeing none thank you Mister Jones you're dismissed thank you ladies and gentlemen for your time. Of next is Barbaro Kortchmar. Ma'am if you will identify yourself for the record yes Sir my name is Barbara courts fire. Thank you for at letting me speak today I'm here to ask you to vote in favor of SB five ninety one and I can tell you my personal experiences that you know I have I have experienced this from both sides of the coin I guess you could say in March seventeenth nineteen eighty nine my brother was murdered by a forty five year old person that knew him. And so we as a family experience that from the victim's family perspective the prosecutor office you know a twenty five year sentence for this person and speaking with parents or elderly at the time we we decided that maybe that was an acceptable sense so he received a twenty five year sentence however you know he was paroled in ten years he served ten years of that. A couple years later we found ourselves on the other side of the aisle in the Korean one nine nephew was convicted of first degree murder and he he was eighteen years old just barely. And received a life sentence. You know it's it's it's really easier to be the victim of the family in a way because you know you naturally get everyone's sympathy it's a lot more difficult to be you know the family of the victim. Andy Struthers personal way. Now when I first met Laura berry she explained to me about this this bill when I was you know we're excited about it She telling her story and how the bill came about and what I really loved about it was the fact that it's not a get out jail free. There is accountability there. But then there's also hope because you know I believe that the parole board they're not looking at the same eighteen nineteen twenty year old kid that they committed this terrible crime. You know it's twenty five or thirty years later and they're looking at a mature man or woman who knows the value now of this life that was lost. And I believe that many of them would if they could they would take back that day you know what we know we can't do that I know for my nephew it would be this the way for him. But what I love about this S. five ninety one is that it's going to give them hope it's going to give them something to look forward to a new or work toward and and I and I've heard from the ones that have lifers that there's not a lot of opportunity when you have a long sentence like that he's not if he's manage to take all the courses he's actually gotten his tournament lectures as a license age back up limited job. You show me how to give member of but also I think about the practicality of housing these people for life in the expense of that. Counter to letting them come back to society and be a contributing member pay taxes be mentors to people I mean that's that's invaluable that's invaluable and the probe or we have to trust that they're they they know who they're looking at they're gonna let somebody out it might if you would say there are people that never need to leave here and and and he knows who they are but there are people that deserve that chance I really want to just close with quoting Bryan Stevenson from his book just mercy where he says we are more than the worst thing we have ever done we all need mercy we all need justice and just perhaps we all need a measure of an air to grace I respectfully ask that you vote for as B. five ninety one thank you for your time. Senator Hendren. Thank you Mr chairman thank you for your testimony. How do you explain the difference in the sentence of the twenty five years versus the life for the eighteen year old. Can I give my personal opinion yes I think the jury misunderstood you know that there was a capital charge on the table but they came back with the first degree but they actually sentenced him with a capital sentence and but that's my personal opinion. He should have gotten that he should've gotten the forty years or whatever and then he'd be out he or he be out right now because it would only serve twenty thank. Other questions from the committee. C. none thank you ms Wardlaw thank you. The next we have. Catherine shoulders the king for. Hi my name's Katherine shoulders and. I come to you as a volunteer for the Arkansas department of corrections and I didn't know anything about Arkansas department corrections or prisons in general until I started volunteering skews me. And. One of the people I met when I went to McPherson maximum security prison was Andrea Jones who stepped out for a minute the young the woman who spoke and she was part of a group of inmates that participated in a program that I brought to the prison is called dance to be free. That programs out of Colorado I am in our cans in and I wanted to bring it to Arkansas so. Very naively got in the door and it was working with director Wendy Kelley and the first training we had we had twenty five women sign up. I had no idea who I was going to be working with that I found myself in front of these but late amazing women and over the last four years that was in twenty seventeen. Over the last four years I've gotten to know the core teachers there about ten core teachers we teach the inmates how to teach the class and then they sustain it. And last year before covid I was sitting with the core teachers in a circle talking about how things were going. And I happened to ask a question I had never asked before which was how long are you here for because I wanted to know who where we get to be able to depend on to continue to sustain the program and who was leaving and they went around in a circle and of the ten women eight of them want life sentenced I thought what the heck is going on here how do we attract so many women with life sentences and they explained to me that. They weren't allowed to participate in any programs and I thought well that's crazy but you know what you mean and they said well because we have such long sentences life sentences. You don't qualify for rehabilitative programs so that's the craziest thing I've ever heard what we do just throw you away and they said please be a voice for us because we don't want to just waste away here so. I said how did you get into dance to be free in the server you have no sentencing guidelines so naively the organization I'm with does not have sentencing guidelines we didn't know to have them or not have them so we attracted all these women with long term life sentences. But what happened for me is that I was introduced to a group of women that in my life I would never have run across first of all they're in prison and secondly I've grown up as a white privileged woman. So I'm sixty three years old and at age fifty nine I'm meeting people that I would never ever run across in my life. I didn't know what I expected but I certainly didn't expect who I ended up working with. I can't speak for all ten of them but I have been close to a few of them and I do know their stories which I won't reveal any names because it's their story but I want to share that these women that I know were sentenced young. Seventeen eighteen nineteen years old. One woman that I work with directly she's a leader of the group is forty four years old. She is gracious Heilind. She's educated and self rehabilitated and that's what I've found not just with her but with these other women is that they took it upon themselves to rehabilitate they went to the library they got the books they attended whatever they could there are some programs that are brought in as Andrea said. Mine was one of them and I've never been so touched in my life I mean that something as simple as a dance class was like air or oxygen. You know I. It's hard to imagine what it is to have. Nothing day after day. Accept your job and this forty four year old woman's job is to mop at the gym floor which she does with great pride and it looks really good and she's very trusted inside the prison so what I want to say is no I've never been incarcerated I haven't grown up in the circumstances that so many of these women and men have but I do respect the hell out of them and. I think my perspective isn't isn't isn't interesting wine Andre had told me and I'll never forget this. But not at a time when the when they were just like desperate and drowning because of the day after day of repetition and nothing to look forward to and I thought all I did was walk in here and you know teach you how to do a dance class which is to realize the level of of Nothing in this that that these people are facing so from age nineteen to state this one put persons example to age forty four I didn't know it nineteen I would never ever run into her at nineteen I was off in college she was not she was four months pregnant. And it got involved in a really bad situation okay. I just want to say that from my perspective there are people incarcerated that I know and and and I and I only know you know this little fraction. That are rehabilitated. And they are leaders and I would be proud to call the my neighbors. And I want to say there's a point where enough is enough and I believe that were there thank you. Questions from the committee. Hearing none thank you ms shoulders thank you and of. Next we have fifteen the same. Sir if you would identify yourself for the record. Hi my name is Colleen nice. You're recognized. Well first of all I'd like to thank this committee for allow me to speak today all in all I think it is B. personal me to say this or that all. I come what I'll of branch. I want to introduce my circumstances in my situation what brought me here today I was seventeen years old in nineteen nineteen and I committed a crime and was given a life without seeing this in Arkansas department of correction. Alternately serve twenty eight years and eight months of that sentence in by way of Miller versus Alabama which was the United States Supreme Court ruling that said it was unconstitutional to give juveniles a mandatory life without seeing this I was free authority sentencing hearing. I think it's very important for me to saying that we talked about a lot of things and I went is for us to write a speech to present to you guys today but after hearing all the all testimony votes for I feel the speeches in the Nov to convey the message that I feel need to be all conveyed to dating in this meeting. All we are on both sides have a difficult job but I think all the horror stories of of the Cranston was committed in the past and things of that nature all are very relevant. But I think more so what this bill is challenging the us to do is it is a challenge owned our morality. Oneil spirituality on the way we believe on the way we perceive things and I won't get into all the religious aspects of it but all the way I believe I believe that all my how power of experience mercy and forgiveness. Aw S. the man who has took a life before I have a great deal of contrition on for that there are. In. I didn't always have this contrition the first couple years of my concentration I just went through my concentration randomly but once I matured into the man that I am but common because I'm out I still haven't all wrapped in I like to say that I'm in the process of the art of being and becoming so I have a truly a rap to wide I need to be it S. the main. But I know that I'm not the same do but now that I want schools. as I said in two thousand eighteen I was given a second chance. I was of August the tenth of two thousand eighteen I was released from incarceration I wasn't on all parole the big guy went to all my resentencing hearing they gave me a forty year sentence and I walked out the door. But the question ills what did I do with my freedom. Well when I was incarcerated I matured into a man I was no longer that little boy. So the first thing that I did when I what recapture my freedom is I became a resident I registered to vote I voted in this lead all Bowling cycle on. I became a member of the all it costs rate that year is Arabic is a network aw in this a branch of all. The all campaign for the for it for a sentence of you which advocates for ending all life without parole in the stream sentences with juveniles I have been invited to different forms to speak on behalf of all of of different juvenile site go to law a juvenile detentions all facilities to speak I met a board member well I'm a now paid employee of the council rate all I do different volunteer work all for the Arkansas poor people's campaign D. in WAC pretty and different civic or organizations I'm also I'm also owe a student at all Arkansas state university I have won all created all this this awesome I'll be graduating with associates degree in all age affect so this is these are some of the things all that I have done with my freedom with my second chance when all the seat that I deserve to die in prison so I'm here today because I know that if I can do it. The gas that left hand the gas who lifted me and taught me a protected me in such a harsh environment who gave me directions to become the man I I have I am becoming. Does me in deserve a chance at freedom now we heard some horror stories but I like to all of us to take this time to all kind of going to mind all member and talk about some of the guys who this bill will affect all one of the guys of. Name is Sherman noble he's been incarcerated for twenty five years I think you will surround eighteen nineteen years old when he was incarcerated for the last fifteen years of service his incarceration he's been working in the of therapeutic community and he teaches all he's a per counselor for the substance abuse treatment program of any mentors all means all within all in inside the other unit. Another individual all is James weaver. he saw a poor counselor in the parable program it's a Christian based program in He's one of the only gas that I know that has taught itself a second language why being incarcerated but one of his most all star characteristics the meeting is it similar to. S. C. O. address all. Behavior issues never have I seen him one time loses school would individual for for what they have done I have been doing but he always did it with with with all individuals with humility and respect and last but not least I like to all. Sure a story about this guy named Fred Cooper junior. I like to call them the morality of the prison system due to the fact every time that there's a conflict within the walls of the Prius and. He is trying to mediate it he is trying to find a peaceful solution all three of these individuals will sentence when they was up on the twenty twenty years old and all three of the it might you might opinions deserve a second chance if society to live the fullest malls I panic self. All. I just feel I just. I just feel that we need to infuse within our walls in within the way we deal with our criminal justice system a sense of all. You have a relative in west of for the two. I know we Randgold table assn all all people to a more religious all all all part of use of the religious persuasion and things of that nature but I would like to think. That each and everyone of us in this role believes and I have power in in my opinion. One of the mark. Sybil's. Religious foundations are forgiveness and mercy so with that there are hope assurance of something which you guys did the land on your heart in. In this just please consider consider. The humanity that we're dealing with it. The reality. So with that thank you guys for allow me to share. Senator Johnson. We're. Is not an easy decision out for anybody at this table. And and what we're being asked is somebody who is seventeen under. R. twenty. And the same arguments I mean the same situations can be had for somebody who's twenty one or twenty two same situations it's just a different number. What do you say about the person who is twenty one or twenty two. Just like we're saying this is. I got taught me we all once before that. We must put. Our principles before our personality. A lot of times we have to evaluate the individual's home not so much as what they've done but who they become. We. When I. Take a look at some of the things that I did when I was an adolescent. In the jocks supposed that to who I am today. I'm not. That those are two different people. They're the same people but there are two different of people socks is saw oxymoron. Because a lot of the things that I did S. A. U. I needed out of my youthful folly. So you ask me what do we do with someone who is twenty one years old or or or thirty years old or whatever see that's why our morality and our our all our principles come into play yet if we say that we are people of all offer given people are murdered above people did experience immersing. Then these are principles. If we if we if we we upon the laws of justice. Digest this has to be tempered with mercy. So in answer to your question I say can apply in genesis in mercy so any individual. Because it's all I think Mr Jones said it is really we this state is the department of correction so if we can correct the behavior because nine times out of ten most. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm going to set up ten out of ten. That when people commit acts of heinous acts. It's something minute individual is broken it was something in me in me that was broken to where when I committed my crime. Do I certainly do I not deserve to be fixed so that's my question to you due to individuals who are languishing in these houses these institutions not deserve to be be all rehabilitated. Because once they are rehabilitated the answer Jess is amended this state that individual stands out of criminality. So what do we do with individuals who have a static criminality. Well I mean from your. Statement is that there's no number it's it's the same the. Rehabilitation and and don't no matter what number if they committed it thirty or whatever so it you would be at the table if it was thirty or are under just like you'd be a table at twenty year under so I'm at the table today. Because this twenty and under. And I feel that if a person committed the crime it twenty and under and received a life without parole sentence then he should be given consideration when he has rest are age of majority. Hello no matter what happens is a yes sorry I appreciate your testimony and know that this is man's law. And and it's in perfect and we're in perfect assented to the table but but there's there's god's law that that governs all and is perfect and and will be. Judged in perfectly at that that a point so thank you for testimony. Other questions from the committee. Hearing none thank you thank you. Senator Leding. We didn't miss anybody did we. The. Not to my knowledge and I will be very brief I do sincerely appreciate the generous times committees given this issue I know it's very difficult that these aren't easy issues however when I first got involved with this issue Senator Irvin back in twenty fourteen I would travel to a conference to to me with the fair the campaign for the fair sentencing of you that I met a man there from divide IT shared his story with me he and a friend committed a truly heinous crime at the age of fifteen he was now in his late forties he'd only been out of prison for about two or three months any broke down in tears telling his story just how grateful he was to someone in our position would be willing to give someone like him a second chance and I was the first time when I really doubted what I was doing because when he told the story again it was a truly heinous crime and these these are very difficult and challenging things but I go back to that hour long conversation between representative Petty and Dr Linda white in twenty seventeen we were trying to find the support for the original bill and represented Petty here having lost your daughter went into that meeting adamantly opposed that legislation but she came out of that conversation asking to be the House sponsors because of her support that the bill was able to pass and that the turning point the conversation everybody's everybody's crying everybody share their stories Rebecca asks Dr wise what what had helped her what what made her come around to have her point of view. And when to look up at the ceiling and you look back at the back and she said was grace. You realize that no amount of pain or hatred towards people who taking her daughter's life whatever bring her daughter back and she decided that for her own good she would just begin to work towards better understanding these issues but towards restricting for restorative justice to trying to renew to trying to find the grace and all of this very dark and difficult circumstances. And you know again to senator Johnson appointment where is the line for me the lines here okay I would bring it back in to try to raise above twenty one that would be a very hard sell for me but I do think this is for consideration it is the policy makers we set that one you voted for the the twenty seventeen law so it'd Senator Rice Senator Ballinger Senator Hendren Mister chair you enter Stubblefield did not vote so I don't know what your feelings are on the kitchen legislation for the other one to vote against twenty seventeen law as you said senator garner was you so we have decided that this issue what we are willing to consider finding that grace in the situations and so on is that we extended just a little bit further and with that I'd ask for a good vote. Committee. Motion to pass from center Johnson. Second from Senator Hendren any discussion. Hearing none all for the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed no. The motion failed thank you Committee. Representive lari is your committee still going on. Okay. Okay. The. Your right. This is for the people of. Okay. Eastern fifteen. Lowery just County. That means we need to get. Okay Senator Wallace is not here have you pass the bill. Senator Stubblefield as stepped out of the room is around six ninety six for me. Senator Ballinger. Isn't another committee. So we will come back to representative Crawford house bill sixteen ninety six. I'm sorry Senator Leding I missed your second builder. No go ahead. Reserve proper you're recognized thank you Mr chair committee. I thought allegro would do better today today I bring before you house bill sixteen ninety six this is a bill that chief of police in Fort Smith police department brought to me what they would like to do is when the a book a Class se misdemeanor that they would be able to do that take fingerprints photographs at the place of the offense so like if they were at Walmart and they had someone who'd shoplifted that they would be able to for fingerprint the person and cite them at that time and then they would be given a follow up court date this would allow to all Class say misdemeanors we worked with the association of chief of police change a word from shall to may so there is no opposition to the bill. I'll take any questions. Questions from committee. Hearing none is there anyone here to test. For for or against. Did someone have a question. No of. Representative Crawford would you like to close for your bill yes I would and I would ask for a do pass motion thank you. The passenger rights second from Senator Stubblefield a discussion. Hearing none of. Motion passed congratulations represent property of faster bill. Senator Leding step out of the room. Senator Leding. S. B. six twenty two yes committee there should be a much briefer discussion of the key with this legislation we're trying to fix but my understanding was a technicality with ACT five thirty nine but I have an attorney here who will be able to better explain the situation. Which is a. You identify yourself for the record yes Sir my name is Michael Kaiser I'm an attorney with the lesser intentionally firm here in Little Rock. May proceed. We're here today in support of Senate bill six fifty two which is just a clean up bill four ACT five thirty nine of twenty seventeen of bill we've discussed in the Miller contacts in other bills today this is just a clarification of the legislative intent of that original bill which was to be retroactive bows to homicide juvenile offenders as well as juvenile non homicide offenders the law already makes that retroactivity somewhat clearer in that in section a one a a minor who was convicted and sentenced as opposed to stating prospectively a minor who is convicted and sentenced However. However that the the second section a to a contains a very express retroactivity provision we're just asking that the same exact retroactivity language from a to B. be added to a new A. one B. it's not fair and it see it defies logic that we would give this benefit to juvenile homicide offenders but not too juvenile non homicide offenders who did not cause the loss of life The issue here is not going to affect a large group of people we do have one in case before the Arkansas Supreme Court actually construing whether or not this provision is retroactive as it stands however this proposed fix would make it abundantly clear crystal clear that the legislative intent in twenty seventeen and now remains that it be retracted for both homicide and non homicide offenders if if we warrant to pass this bill there will be the need for otherwise needless litigation as the ABC at least right now is not treating that provision is retroactive and so I am currently engaged in the one case in the Arkansas Supreme Court and several others and circuit courts in Pulaski and Jefferson counties seeking declaratory relief for individual inmates if we had this one bill there would be no need for a few dozen of those individual cases and a few dozen of those individual cases to be appealed we're just asking that you all make clear what you said four years ago and not leave an argument that this retroactivity should only go to those who killed rather than those who did not and many of those individuals are serving excessive sentences for nonviolent offenses such as drug crimes we do have several that carry a potential life sentences or or forty years and several people convicted of of robberies. Questions from the committee. Hearing none is there anyone here to serve for against the bill. I come before. Build it up for yourself for the record. Mr chairman members of the committee on Laurie can Paris I am here today represent Arkansas prosecuting attorneys association I am the deputy prosecutor coordinator as Mister Keiser stated this legislation or this legislation affects the case that is currently on appeal and I the prosecutors would prefer to let that piece litigation go before the courts it's my understanding that the attorney general's office is arguing that the non homicide case provision is and should not be applied retroactively the court has decided to issue on the Miller defendants which are the homicide defendants so since this is in litigation and currently on appeal I think there is some disagreement about whether that provision should be applied retroactively so we view it as more than a a technical clean up bill and we would ask that you vote no one let the courts work this issue out. You now have my interest. So your suggestion is that. The legislature instead of. Deciding what we met let the courts decide what we meant. Well I'm not sure that the intent originally was for all of it to apply retroactively and I think that on the Miller defendants the courts decided that it should have applied retroactively so this is a non homicide provision and yes I think since it's currently on appeal in litigation that that is an issue that should be decided by the courts. The legislature doesn't have a place in the. Absolutely you all have a place in that if you're clear about what your intent was originally I think there's disagreement on what the intent was originally on how much of this legislation should apply retroactively or not no position on this bill but or water intent might be today yes Sir. Thank you other questions from the committee. Hearing none of anyone else to speak for against. Senator Leding. Again we just ask that the we take the opportunity to further clarify our intention twenty seventeen for applying the retroactivity to homicide cases I see no reason that we would want to apply it to the non homicide cases with that I'd ask for a good vote. Committee. Do pass from Senator Hendren. Of you may come in after we have a second. Check. Okay we have a second comment Discussion your your chair sometimes got jumping sword I came here late on stage he just got out I do not know what bill this is so I made the second so I can know what bill is next make a determination on it I hate to admit that but like I said I will be here thirty seconds ago from a conversation in another I know other main committee in mind can you please tell me the bill number SB six fifty to sixty two thank you Sir. No apologies needed were at that point in the session. Any other discussion was Senator Garner is quickly looking at the. Hello Chesterville center. Okay or by remote everyone for the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed. Motion carried congratulations Senator Leding your pastor bill. Thank you Committee. Thank us. Senator Stubblefield of. Are you ready to present this be six ninety six for me. Okay. But we're going opposite today of what we normally do we normally take house first when we can but we go against the beat Senate bills out this morning selling it on the calendar tomorrow so that you guys don't. Leave us stranded down there. Senator Stubblefield you're recognized thank you Mr chairman Senate bill six seventy eight of the last session we passed a bill that says it. Senator sex offender cannot be hired by a to be a firefighter full time part time this bill simply says that fire department shall require criminal background background check on an applicant that conforms and applicables federal standards includes taking same fingerprints the of funding for this I understand come from ACT eight. So it would be no charge to the fire department. Questions from the committee. Senator Garner you're recognized so I'm trying to find a bill right now but from what I've heard is this background check will apply to volunteer and every other time it's not so much they worry about it so my the sex offender not it's about the cost of repairing the background check and find people to do it can you address those concerns for this is just for the new people understand this bill just for the new people. The fund the funding I was told comes under Act eight was passed. Page three I'm sorry eight thirty ACT eight thirty three cents or six seven eight. Senator still program where we will bring Roger Smith at the absolute. What is coming up Senator Stubblefield classroom another question sure. So right now we have the. Part of it you can't be a sex offender be a fired. Person right in any scenario is this given it the ability to actually find out if they are not is that with the intent of this is okay. This is regard actually requires a background check it is agreed to and the the that will cost of our department but Rogers. Would you identified by yourself for the record yes Sir Mr chairman I'm Roger Smith I represent the estate firefighters association on this issue the background checks are kind of a necessity there is funding that the fire services protection board has jurisdiction over in terms of what they allow to be used for that board will allow the cost of this to be covered by that so it's not only applies to new firefighters not old ones they they really won't be any tremendous costs for any particular department because we don't get committee volunteers at often of the municipal one to be paid for by obviously the municipalities. Thank. Other questions from the committee. Hearing none is there anyone here speak for or against. Hearing none center so for you closing your bill. The because you know I just will say there's no other way find out this without a background checks on a closed thank you thank you to pass from center us. Second from center Johnson any discussion hearing none all for the motion signify by saying aye All opposed. Thank you Senator Stubblefield. Of. Senator Ballinger did not see a bill here for you. These. In order to take the Senate bill. Well we're trying to get the Senate bills out actually get on the calendar tomorrow. S. B. six ninety eight. So if you look at Senate bill six ninety eight there's one change it that this is this is another product so last the two sessions ago hi we went through all the rules and regulations most of us did nothing but I happen to have a the a relationship with a hard working bail bondsmen that's really pays attention everything and so there's a couple of rules that didn't have statutory authority well this is one of the things of this makes aware about bondsman it can can work through an employee to effectuate a release no no no opposition and you know it's really pretty much it I think a clean up. Questions from the committee. Hearing none anyone's here speak for against. What. Hearing none of Senator Ballinger clothes for your bill I'm close and I move do pass motion to pass second from center Tonson any discussion hearing none all for the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed motion here congratulations Senator Ballinger is a pastor bill. Of. Okay. One of. Represented Gazaway in the room representative. Okay but representative Penzo is here. I'm sorry would you say is what. We will. We will meet again so let's get the folks over here represent Penzo. Thank you Mr chair. What. Which build representative Penzo fifteen fifty four Hey I have fifteen fifty four and then. And then another but we start with fifteen fifty four I start with the most important one okay House bills fifteen fifty four stab wishes an affirmative defense for victims of human trafficking if the person engages in that offense as a result of trafficking affirmative defense can be raised only him prosecution of five offenses forgery of fraud prostitution obscene performance and drug charges and we have an amendment to this I apologize the the prosecutors wanted us to amended out class Y. felonies we amended it down to those five offenses and then they got to looking at it and wanted Class Y. felony drug charges amended out because that would You know meth labs things like that so legitimate you know offenses the with trafficking where those five that were listed so I don't know if the amendments been passed out yet so because. Okay. Okay any discussion on the amendment. moved option Senator Ross. I do have a second. Circumcenter Johnson any discussion hearing none all for the most motions opposing I. All pose congratulations the representative Penzo you have passed your bill I don't know but should congratulate you or not are they trying to kill your bill but not this one. I'm just. I'm just thinking about how long it'll take to get it back to the house for concurrence of amendment but I think I think we can make it work procedure so did you Okay of. Are you motor we have the myth amendments passed. The. Are you ready for questions on your bill I am. Senator Garner so this isn't a permanent defense and enumerated cases if you can show your sexually trafficked and that's the reason you kind of corrected the offense yeah because some of these women that are trafficked are brought in to you know coerced into prostitution or involved in some kind of drug activity was the main issue also with the you know this is this was a working with the Arkansas coalition Marshallese that had to do with the Paul Peterson case you know do a lot of these women will come forward and testify against the trafficker because they're worried about going to jail for being involved in certain illegal activity so they can show that those illegal activities took place because they were being trafficked you know because that's where the the frosting adoptive parents came from the bill because a lot of times they were involved in that but not you know the wouldn't give notice against their will a lot of time so we want to be able to come forward and actually prosecute the traffickers instead of women being scared to come forward. So right now they can offer immunity to a prosecutors can correct but it's it's more about getting them to come and actually testify because they're scared before that means all for we we need to remove the barrier of figure so they will come forward to testify because we've we've got trafficking happening in Arkansas right now it's just we need these women to be willing to come forward and testify against their traffickers. Okay thanks thank you. Other questions from the committee. Hearing under anybody to testify for or against. Representative Penzo are you closing your bill close in a create a good vote. Committee do pass from Senator Ballenger Beckham center Johnson any discussion. As amended hearing none congratulations representative Penzo you pass your bill as amended thank you Committee your next bill is nineteen twenty one. Vote. Welcome to detect a will then excuse me let's go back you haven't passed your bill. All the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed. We actually got the loudest road that we've had all kinds of that again. Yeah are you okay with me running my next bill yes may I have a J. P. triple jump at the table. You may thank you. You will identify yourself for the record. Morning Mr chair thank you my name is John triple. And I'm an attorney here in Little Rock so this bill is really a cleanup bill it's fairly simple I'm sorry house bill nineteen twenty one. Over several legislative changes some of the language has become clearer over time that's led to confusion interpreting the law. And that resulted a couple of years ago in the court of appeals issuing an opinion leads to result it was never intended by the legislature they found that the that time period that's use that's available for an individual to withdraw their consent to adoption would apply to agencies and it also applies to minors you have to consent to their own adoption in front of the judge in court the withdrawal period should not apply to agencies or minors consenting in court because they don't need a period of time to withdraw their consent so I'd like to give one little Lester David example of the absurdity of the court of appeals opinion that is for example I have a trial coming up in may in which the minor to be adopted is twelve years old. Arkansas code annotated nine nine two oh six requires the consent to adoption of a minor if they're at least twelve years of age. Nine nine to twelve states that before any hearing on a petition the period in which the consent may be withdrawn must have expired. And the minor under twelve under nine nine to await must consent before the court so what that means is we will go to the final trial and adoption and the minor will consent to the judge before the court is required by law because if agent has to be before the judge however. The nine nine two oh nine as interpreted by the court of appeals says. The minor may waive the ten day period down to five but five days has to pass before the final hearing you can't have a child consenting at the final hearing and then wait five days for the final hearing that justice circular and it. There's no way out so basically this bill is designed to correct the language to make things clear that the consent for agencies and the consent for minors the period of revocation does not apply so welcome to answer any questions. Questions from the committee. Hearing none we have anyone here testify for or against. See non representative bins are you closing your bill I am closed per share a good vote. Committee. The passenger Johnson second from Senator Ballenger we just pronounce it passed. In any discussion. Hearing none all for the motion signify by saying aye. All opposed congratulations represent into you Penzo you have passed your bill thank you Committee thank you Mr president Lowery thank you Mr chair. Thank you Mr chair with your permission I'd like to bring witness to the table with me. You may. This house bill eighteen ninety six eighteen ninety six. And it was for the record I'm representative Mark Lowery in my witness introduce yourself if you'd identify yourself record my name is Aaron Clement. Good purpose of floor you're recognized for C.. Sure I know you've had a long morning already so I'm not going to belabor this this is the I think the ultimate node means no bill and and I'm gonna let just air and tell her story I think to to better illustrate the necessity for this but currently Arkansas law does not cover sexual assault of a person is asleep. there are other provisions of federal law actually is very specific about a person being asleep at Arkansas law is not and so I rather than be filling in the pieces I'm going to let air and tell her story and the story of others said she's spoken with. Hi it wasn't until nineteen ninety three the here at turn ten that this country may marital rape and crime in all fifty states for more than two hundred years before that we did not recognize it was wrong for someone to for sex on their spouse. Today we recognize that your partner is in a unique position to commit crimes. Against you and we specifically prohibit and punish these three domestic violence loss. H. B. one eight nine six takes another step forward in protecting people especially women from being victimized by the people they trust the most their significant others. Several months ago I was startled awake by my now ex boyfriend fondling me inappropriately. He never asked if I wanted him to do that. I never said yes or even had the opportunity to say yes or no because I was asleep. When I asked what he thought he was doing he told me I was making a big deal about nothing and that he thought I would appreciate him waking me up like that. For him my consent didn't even cross his mind because it was something he wanted me to do to him. And for me it was obvious that as long as I was in his bed I was an object to do with what he wanted. To plea he wanted to place himself. When I went to the police about what he had done the detective told me he was so very sorry about what happened. But there was nothing they could do because Arkansas sexual assault laws as he put it. Are not black and white. He then told me that they could contact my ex boyfriend for his statement but once it landed on the prosecutor's desk that would more than likely be it because this is a gray area of the law. Additionally he informed me that they hear from victims of this type of assault far too often but that they were powerless to stop it. Today you can give the officials I spoke with and every other police officer in this great state that power by passing HB one eight nine six. When I told my friends about what happens to me. Date shrug it off and told me that their husbands and boyfriends do it all the time that sometimes they would even wake up to their partners inside of them. And that's just what people do when they're married or in a relationship. Thirty years ago prior to the passage of marital rape laws they probably would have said the same thing about their husbands forcing them to have sex. But sexual assault should never be just what people do in relationships and marriages. We are not objects just because we share the same bed with someone in this state we already recognize that being drunk does not mean you consent to sex that being drug does not mean you consent to sex that being unconscious does not mean you consent to sex. By passing HB one eight nine six Arkansas what ad being asleep to that list and protect the state's husbands wives boyfriends girlfriends sons and daughters from being assaulted while they sleep thank you. Questions from committee. Senator Garner you're recognized so the underlying crime. For this is. Sexual assault in the second degree. I believe that that is correct sexuales of regard to sexual offenses in the Arkansas criminal code. That's a Class B. felony. I'm I'm not aware of the specifics of that senator I'm just I'm just looking up now so. It's. Very sensitive to your situation with that you went through. What. The way I read the law should sexual contact correct so if. A husband is. Or a wife is. With their partner and do that. You know that might be a normal behavior that they do that particular time the other part of the size that it is in. Then that would be de facto. A class B. felony with twenty years in jail. Senator Allward really doing here we're not creating new law other than to clarify that being asleep is also another state of where you cannot grant consent. Yes it so we're you know we're not adding to penalties we're just we're frankly bringing Arkansas law in line with what federal law is that is sleep is considered to be stay where you are not able to grant consent. Okay just because the other three elements that that are listed on conscious is a very obvious position where you're rendered unconscious for reason physically unable to communicate that means there's some physical triggered it does that are rendered underwear of sexual brindar a motion is perfectly rendered something to you this is one was more of a I hate to say for lack of better word of passive Act where the. It's hard way to describe it but I'm just a tad bit worried that. Normal relationships. That is normal behavior between two partners could quickly turn into this state is the relations sour after the fact or something like that you know I know it's a hard position to take a special we have somebody who had been assaulted in that way that's the only issue I can see what this maybe unintended consequence of that engineering people that. Aren't really doing a valid actor doing that but it comes to an issue if they want someone that I do Senator in and I actually spent the time talking with representative Gazaway he's in the room and asked him you know is this something that having to. It's a prosecutor just not doing their job I mean or the police officer saying oh we won't really want to mess with this and you know at the the discussion was will. There may be some elements here where the prosecutor would have had the discretion to say yes this would cover a sleep but the best way to deal with this so that there's not that discretion on whether a sleep is rendered aware is to go ahead and just to add these two words and that's really all we're doing is adding more sleep and especially it's especially important if there has been a situation where maybe this happened multiple times and and the partner whether it is has been consensual or not has been told no I I do not want to be in this position again and then it happens okay meeting register by you. Minimal Y. for sleeping in bed. I do with defined the sexual contact while I'm sleeping. Right. Because we sleep in a bed together. The way resisting as I do that with a person's in Cape of consent and they're physically helpless eight Kay eight sleep. I am having committed that criminal act. In that scenario. Do you not see that be impossible means technically unless I misread the element of intent or something that I misread and that which is possible this under the law as it is right now as I'm reading here with what you're saying was Senator it as you know the law itself is not enough to convict circumstances context would be presented to the police or to a prosecutor and evidence and testimony would be would be brought forth all we're doing is we're giving protection to someone like Aaron and and other women or other individuals that they that their case will at least be heard and I understand what you're saying is the scenarios the hypotheticals could certainly get out of hand but that that's where testimony and evidence then comes into play. Senator Johnson you're recognized. The Mr Rosen's wag is he here or not here can you know as their defense is he wouldn't be here so. Would you. With the field with Frank you want me to bring this person to take. I don't know what I don't know are you there is a ThinkCentre Johnson as a question for you defense side. We. Thank you. Apologize I don't know everybody yet. Mercerville a divider so for the record. Rigorous Executive Director Arkansas public defender commission. So. Where is the defense in this and and. And the proof. Without a video. In your bedroom. It has has. The man or the woman defender sales. In the case I don't that's that's the and that's what senator garner touched upon okay even an inadvertent Act. Could be construed as a violation of this offense. and. What then ends up happening is an arrest. You for produce law enforcement chooses to arrest. And then a prosecution. And if you're gonna let a jury decide this that's one word against the other. But you've already gotten to that point. I can I can I'm not saying it occurred here but I can see. She was very in the imagine you've got and a relationship that is really gone south. And because we see a lot. Of with other issues in the law this is another allegation that can be brought up. Two so called. I have law enforcement can determination whether or not occurred. And you know so absent. Physical proof. All. I will be taking one person's word over another. And there is no statute limitations author when there is well. Thank you. Senator Ballinger you're recognized. Thank you Mr so help me understand what is the distinction distinction between unconscious or asleep what what is I mean it's so currently if if we don't have a minute it seems like the bigger concern is about the underlying law what is the distinction between being between a conscious or sleep you can look at if someone has been given a preference inebriation okay just to the point that you're physically. I'm able to consent. Senate also currently under the law is unconscious does a sleep fall into the category of unconscious I would say no okay. Prosecutor still here. We'll identify yourself for the record. Mr chairman members of the committee on Laurie compared this process deputy prosecutor coordinator. Does with adding or asleep allow us to prosecute a case that currently is not. Prosecutable. that should be. I think it would clarify what the term I'm unconscious means. There is case law that has talked about this in the past with physically helpless meaning and conscious can mean deep sleep I think some prosecutors and law enforcement may move forward on cases like this but adding the language of sleep would certainly clarify that. But the danger that the. Public if under have raised upon are questioning and of Senator Garner has raised what if any thoughts there. You know each case has to be fact specific so I think the prosecutors would look at everything that is brought to them it sounds like in this particular case it didn't get passed a law enforcement officer so I think the part that Mr. That Greg talked about saying that it's the victims wired I mean in a in a rape case that the case law is pretty clear that the testimony of a rape victim can be sufficient to support a conviction but most prosecutors are gonna look at all the evidence and so it will depend on each facts of the case but but yes I mean that's something that would have to be taken into account the concerns that you all have raised small. Senator us. You mention the. That are witness didn't get past the officer. You may be for very legitimate things or everything that day do you feel if she had gotten. The officer. Beyond thank you any they can do was there something that prosecutor would have taken in our case the you for. It's hard to say a hundred percent yes they would have or no they wouldn't have I can say that. based on her testimony I'm not sure what where she's from or where the case happened but I do know that some prosecutors have in the past argued that being asleep would constitute physically helpless I think this would make it clear if that C. intent that you want to cover that situation but I do think in some cases prosecutors have in the past moved forward in a situation like that. Would you agree that. Two people who are voluntarily in the same house married or not. Who may have had. A mind set what boundaries were. R. were not maybe there wasn't any thing stated. Do you feel like this is going to open up some. Prosecutions that. It shouldn't happen. It's possible I think you know again the prosecutor would most prosecutors again look at is there a pattern of behavior is just happened over a period of time is two one you know isolated incident where it was to marry people sleeping together and something happens but I can't say that wouldn't be a concern or possibility maybe it is we we talk about so many times about you can't get into somebody's head and and. Decide what they're thinking or what the understand and. Again when you've got to. Voluntary look people. In the same bed you know hopefully they would be. cleared boundaries or something so that you don't have an offense I'm not this is this is since the last year don't mean to belittle what this lady is been through but it it it does cause concern thank you. Senator Garner. Richard. I know we're a long time to think there's a way to fix this some way because right now the way it's written. Pretty normal behavior between married couples the couples in a committed relationship could fall there to this including my wife down to meet not done to her I'll meet that openly I think majority people doing it completely out of a scenario seems like to happen to her. The problem is if by the local the sexual contact so if you your wife sleeping you reach over and touch her backside or you she's your sleeves does the same to you if your sleep you violated the law as soon as your hand touches that person under sexual contact I'm sure that's not what you intended because that's a fairly normal thing people do. One what you might fix it make it sexual intercourse or penetration that's a little bit more now now you're now you're going to the active actually having to get a more concrete action for and that would be much harder to explain that the person is asleep that I can might get on board with but as currently written it's just way too broad for non bad behavior that we could thank her behavior yes go after one percent but no scenarios word isn't that way if I go to the property my wife because prosecutor after a do that taken out by the law of the prosecutor could charge me with this discretion we understand the facts they may or may not but technically they can and that's just something that laws can be a very very big bridge that could see its terror fairly innocent people that make sense even though they ballot. Senator Ballinger. Just for clarification this is This doesn't have there's not an element somewhere where where in order to trigger this there has to have been no other a sexual contact and the in the past so these could be two people who are who are very sexually active and then one person who if this law were to pass approaches someone else why there's sleeping sexually then there would be a violation of this law. I think the way that it's written because it's changing the different definition than any sexual offence where somebody can be charged. for committing an act against someone who is physically helpless whether that's contact sexual contact of some sort or sexual intercourse and yes it would apply to that so so it if you know that's a. Me and my wife I approved sure she's not interested she go filed charges against me to the sleep. Technically I think she could not honor that prosecutors would move forward with that correct well but so the but under the law if they did And once we have the law you know it lead to absurd consequences right there's also the defense of the but I can imagine be brought up but if the law were to be upheld they they could be prosecuted. I believe that's correct yes. Other questions from the committee. You don't have to be subject to see none thank you. I don't both of you. To see if the anyone question here to speak for against the bill. Yeah Roach sent to. Lowery would your clothes for your bill. May it may my witness speak to. In this part of my closing. Yes thank you. I would like to point out that. What happened to me was non consensual. In marriages and relationships and such. If we were able to as a whole may consent sexy. This could be discussed prior to the act happening. For me it wasn't. In other situations couples have discussed this and I don't see where that would be a crime if it's been discussed. And reading the federal law it's any person subject to. Sexual act that's committed on a person when the person that's committing the act is aware that the other person is asleep unconscious or otherwise unaware that the sexual act is occurring without consent without getting consent. I think that's where this is going. The H. B. one eight nine six. I don't think it's it's for you know like. That the situation with being married and and you know wife and husband and discussing it higher. Thank continuing the discussion of consent throughout the marriage throughout the relationship. That's that's where I'm coming from on this. Thank you. The Committee were. Members I and I appreciate the the scrutiny that you've wanted to to give to this You were talking more than we're talking about more than just contact we're talking about a sexual assault we're also not talking about I mean I think a lot of the questions have been raised frankly could be raised about the law as it is written even without the or asleep all of these scenarios and all these hypotheticals are sound arguments against this and that's what a prosecutor looks at that's what a police officer looks at is it is doing the interviews collected the evidence senator Johnson raise the issue will you know what's what's the proof of proof that there's not of the camera in the place or there's not something recording it that is the case for this long even without with the current statute without even this change all we're doing is trying to make sure this state law is consistent. Aligns with federal law that it in the case of air and in the case of those who have not given consent that there's not going to be a loophole and that's for exactly what we have right now is a loophole for someone to create a non set nonce consensual sexual assault and to be able to get away with it because the person was asleep in Arkansas law doesn't cover it I appreciate discouraged me but I can assure you that the scrutiny will also take place on the house in the there was not a single piece of evidence presented or testimony against it passed the house with ninety two votes and I'm just appreciate to do pass on this to make sure that that victims are not continue to be victimized because Arkansas law has a loophole in the Preciado do pass. Committee. Representative Lori your bill has failed there the committee has taken no action. Okay we. A or recessed until five minutes upon adjournment of the Senate.