Joint Budget Committee

All right members. We're going to call Joint Budget order. First item on the agenda is B. one. These are reports they of B. one requires no action. You have reported front of you does anybody need to the FNA appear for answer any questions. If not we'll move to the to the Arkansas securities department there is a members that have some question if the security department will come to the front. Table. Stubblefield was your question for the securities. Okay. You had questions we can we can do that later if you want okay but you do have questions for securities. I have a question for different a on the exemptions okay and discounts. What we can do that later if you want to go ahead I will do that will come back to that thank you all right. If you identify yourself. Okay. Good morning my name is can't hear any with the Arkansas securities department I do consumer services and Legislative Affairs okay welcome. A representative would you have questions. Thank you Mr chairman yes ma'am owned or your attachment. There's a couple of I have a couple three questions the first one deals with the. The five hundred dollar finds that are listed here and then there's a hundred thousand dollar fine how how how much or amount of securities were sold by this company and how did you come up with just a five hundred dollar fine. The at the five hundred dollar fines or violations of the exemption Filene's and each one actually details how many violations there were like for example the first one the crystal result resort HSB L. Basil to and. Securities and register their own registered to how many violations were there at for each one of the on the hundred thousand dollar one that was actually money services company was not a securities company. It was a money transmitter who will come to order I'm talking about the fuel company and I'm not and I'm not specifically ponders pouring them out as an example what how many offenses or how many people do they sell securities to to be fined five hundred dollars just five hundred. How many how many people that that one was just one resident just one person that's correct and the and in the others. It looks like that the first one the first one Chris stores all was to. An expert trading FX was just one resident. Okay the next one baster full of fuels was one residents. Ganga's remote one was one resident. And then on the next page I ran make Adelaide. Two one residents okay the House you how would you how do we come up with a hundred thousand dollar fine for prime what what what made their offense rather than that they were an unrest and registered money service company they did bill pay service to the Arkansas consumers and we looked at the amount of revenue they receives in doing that unlicensed money services activity and an we did a basis of ten percent of that unlicensed an of the receipt so they got so we did ten percent of their the revenue they received so what. Do. How would they know that they need to register they they are registered in a number of other states and Arkansas has similar laws of other states they should have now and that they had regulatory council that should have known as well so is based on a percent of the pay roll that they send them to the state that they didn't register that they were performing that type of business that is correct okay all right thank you Mr chairman thank you. Thank you representative will be with any other questions for the securities. Seeing none your excuse thank you ma'am thank you we're gonna go back to B. one if do you have a nice day. Mister Mister chairman I'm Charlie Collins on the Commissioner revenue at the FNA and I'm gonna bring up a couple people this project that we're going to talk about was a collaborative effort between our legal for cast and a couple tax units so if I could have a couple more jurors please where's as we ask the different question what's yours. I guess we'll start in on the left hander during what is go down the table to fuel identify yourselves that will start with questions thank you Mr chair Paul Goehring system revenue commissioner DFA. Charlie Collins on the Commissioner revenue it defending. Whitney McLaughlin with DFA's office of economic analysis and tax research. Tommy burns on the fiscal division manager for the income tax section at the if I. Tourismus the system administrator sales tax would be of a. Thank you welcome all we're going to start we got several questions Senator Stubblefield. You're recognized for a question thank you Mr chairman. polo style review thank you know what I'm going to ask you of this deals with the exemption on ATVs there used on farms I have a number of farmers at about eighteen days that I've known all my life they've done nothing but farm all their life they went through all the paperwork they feel that all the the forms I need to fill out and then all of a sudden they find out they got to go through an advisory board wanted to time before they get approved for the teacher's actions these farms and. I bought for the for over thirty years never never had we have these kind of burdens placed on farmers to have to go and buy a four year so you can use on the farm would you mind explaining it does have this all came about. And now the Director burdens came about. Thank you Senator Stubblefield so um there is a I just give a brief overview we have a an exemption for sales and use tax in the state of Arkansas for agricultural machinery and equipment that used exclusively and directly in the production agricultural production of food or fiber is a business and we have also as a part of that we have a a recent law change that occurred as a part of the tax reform task force would you explain that yes Sir and so previously before this law change that occurred we had when we were going to Perform an audit of any type of sales of all terrain vehicles what TFA auditors would do is we would go to the actual retailer and review those exemption certificates at the place of business of that ATV really retailer and then do it individual refused to determine if those exemption certificates for purchase of an ATV you west was proper under the exemption the the law change that occurred here recently with that now ATV retailers and only the ATV retailers are required to submit every month all of their exemption certificates for purposes of the sales of the ATVs under the agricultural exemption so now an ATV retailer every single month when they send in their monthly reports they're also sending to DFA all of their exemption certificates so now DFA audit we receive those and we review those exemption certificates there may be an additional inquiry in those into those exemption certificates to see if that purchase of an ATV qualifies for the exemption the the archer may you look at all the available information they may reach out to the to the purchaser to obtain additional information ultimately the auditor made make a determination that the the exemption qualifies there sufficient information that the purchase should be exempt or the auditor may disallow the exemption and at that point the taxpayer is notified in writing that there exemption has been. denied by DFA but they are. Allow to go to the Arkansas Tax appeals commission which is a newly created body that's outside of the estate that is independent under the office I'm sorry under the department of an attack with this tax commission a part of this new law that was passed I know they were they were passed both recently but the tax appeals commission was passed in the two thousand twenty one session of the legislature that's right the tax appeals commission was and recently just started receiving these protests administrative protests in January of two thousand twenty three so the tax appeals commission has three independent commissioners that will if I if a farmer or some another purchaser made a purchase of an all terrain vehicle or any other type of agricultural piece of machinery or equipment and then they can go to the tax appeals commission and then that independent commissioner would would then review and then make it its own independent determination if that piece of agricultural equipment for that all terrain vehicle qualified for the exemption. Well let me tell you what you let me tell you what you've done because I spent half the night with the retailer in my area talking about this very thing they are they are coming in now people coming now what about for you and because they have to go through all the secretary paperwork and go through an advisory one guy's been talking to different people for three weeks. He owns a he owns a cattle farm in high form that's all they do. And to to help for him to have to go through all these after loopholes and and to put more burdens on these farmers just to get a tax exemption that we used to get just by signing your name on the on a yellow piece of paper for years I just think it's unfair and it's unfair to the retailer on top of that because when you have to go through this advisory board you don't just go through the whole board and besides they have to drive down here is that correct. So that the commission is is housed in Little Rock they have the ability to hold hearings away from the commission and how long does that take well we we we haven't even had a hearing yet it before the committee before the tax appeals commission so I'm not sure exactly how long they will take to but they also can hold hearings by telephone or virtual yup teleconferences well but that the commission is is is brand new but you to give a little background under our previous procedures under the tax procedure act which were under the office of hearings and appeals within the FAA that the time periods were certainly shorter but that from DFA's perspective we want to get the information to the to either the tax appeals commission as quickly as possible there are time periods that the legislature prescribed for the parties to file their their appeal or their petition and then for DFA to respond in the parties to get a hearing before the tax appeals commission so but certainly there are circumstances where a. a farmer or purchaser can yes submit their information our goal is to see if we can try to come to a resolution of the matter based upon the information that we have a without the need for hearing but if there is a need for the hearing wanna make sure that that the taxpayer is afforded full due process hearing and then if the the tax appeals commission rules against the DFA or or the taxpayer at that point then there's also a further appeal that can occur to a court where a judge will make a determination if the exemption should be allowed or or disallowed. Okay. Mr chairman if I could just ask one more question go ahead of what you've done what you've done is you've created a process for ten farmers come in who qualify for the exemption you may have one who's coming and who's trying to game the system and Bob Homer to go drive it checks accounts and taking them Hummer often taxes. there's got to be an easier and simpler way to do this looking at the ten ninety nines looking at the tax returns without having to go through all these different loopholes and putting these farmers through all these different I mean I know I'm a farm we don't have to get on the phone and talk to different A. for half a day you get nothing done. there's got to be a simple white if we have to do with legislation I'm willing to do that. But I think you need to come up with something because I'm getting tired of the farmers calling me that I know or farmers I've known all my life in there being turned down there exemption is being turned down because. They don't. They don't they haven't talked all the advisory members one tell me of the days if you still like the lead by the head of the advisory board before he can and this is been going on for two three months. It's unnecessary to call for. Well it is certainly as of just give back to the tax reform task force that the General Assembly convene they they identified this specific area of the law is need for Additional or greater inquiry to make sure that the exemption was being properly taken they did single out the tax appeals I'm sorry the tax reform task force and then ultimately that you the General Assembly approved this recommendation the ATVs were singled out as the only type of equipment that was subject to this particular type of document process where the retailers would send all of their documents to DFA so in our in our process is we are receiving all these document documented claims of exemption and then reviewing them for appropriate to make sure that the exemption qualifies certainly as as Senator Stubblefield as you pointed out as a part that we will review not just the exemption claim but also have a dialogue between the DFA and and the individual claiming the exemption will also review the related tax information that the the individual has filed such as their schedule left to just to get a better idea of their sales of agricultural products there other expenses I just to make sure that the appropriate review takes place to see if the exemption applies and also a recent of less recent change but it's also very appropriate that has occurred is that we use to DFA was commanded. By Arkansas law to review exemptions to see if you will qualified beyond a reasonable doubt which is the most highest standard and that's been that's been abrogated by the General Assembly now we an individual that's claiming an exemption must prove entitlement to the exemption by a preponderance of the evidence that's just like a civil case but what is also important is that for an exemption claim the individual has has they have that bird if they want to claim the benefit of an exemption they have to show that they're entitled to the exemption by a preponderance of the evidence if DFA wants to prove something is taxable we have to also meet our our own burden of showing that it's taxable by a preponderance of the evidence so if I can just jump in real quick if if we can get Senator Stubblefield a copy to let you know that the actual law in the copy of the you know then supporting rules and we can work through that and see if there's anything that needs to be adjusted or changed you know see if they're it needs to be a rule change because of maybe have we've interpreted the law or maybe we just need an outright to change the law to simplify the process or or or whatever needs to happen with that be okay senator yes it would Mr chairman but this whole process sounds to me like I have some other degree if you're guilty until proven innocent well let's with that so what we've got a ways is make sure we understand what the process is I don't have a law in front of me to be able to see how DFA's interpreted that and promulgated rules NO in an what is a regional burden or not burden for the taxpayer in order to comply with the new law so what we need to do is just see what it actually says make sure that DFA's following what the law says if they're not then there's rules change if they are then that means we need to make a law change but but I would agree I've been involved in some discussions to understand what you're saying but again I think they believe they're falling you know what the law stipulates for them to do. and what you're saying is the law is terrible and that means we may need a law change but one look at the law and the rules first before we make that determination Senate senator this thing I think that's a fine idea in addition to giving you the mature what we're happy to do is sit down with us Senator Stubblefield and or you or anyone else is interested and walks through here's what we do with that so rest is one quick example the latest changed at the legislature made or instead of us initiating audits we are instead tasked by the legislature to review every single purchase you know how are we doing that what what are we doing with that we scrutinizing every line are we taking exclusive use in farming and looking at ourselves in the answer to that is now on that form somebody signs yes I do it exclusively and and of course we take their word for then on the next line in the form what we do and we're happy to walk through that with you and Senator Stubblefield it sounds like there's some delay on. I mean I would stay because I thought they signed a form that affidavit essentially you know was what was needed but it sounds like there's a next step that's occurring in the FAA to verify that the form is actually legitimate and on and on and on until we're three months into buying a four Wheeler and if that's the case that I think. Big city committee to be a low injured again just make sure it's not a rule change is that okay Senator yes. German thank you. Senator just real your question on ATV exemption. Okay let me just go down the list make sure we stay on the subject first Senator Hammer is yours on the. Senator Johnson is this on a TV exemption. All right. You're recognized I have the. I have the individual come to me he part was purchasing a cattle trailer he works out you know he has cattle any works out outside the cattle business he has a private job outside of just farming with his with his with his income disqualify him from taking that that credit for that cattle trailer and and it was because it was disallowed. Senator Johnson I'd be happy to you have to look at the individual facts in that matter I'm I'm so familiar with them but I have to also be mindful that. These matters are the taxpayer's information is confidential so I'd be happy to take a look in the in terms of those that a dish does additional facts that United maybe can share with the taxpayer that's okay but certainly they that that the general exemption provides that machinery or equipment that's used exclusively and directly in the agricultural production of food or fiber is a business or also food that's going to be so grown and then fed to livestock in process form it may qualify for the exemption there are other factors that may come into play that such as whether or not this individual is engage in the agricultural production or food or five or as as a business as opposed to maybe You know aggregate a farm that's not operated with a with a profit motive but I think it's probably most important but when we have these increases to look exactly at the facts that were involved I'm so if the if possible I can reach out to you off line and we can maybe discuss in greater detail because I would like to know what the additional facts are so his his income outside of that farm could have a bearing on. Whether that's exempt or not well there are there are certainly Senator there is any circumstances where a an individual operates commercial farm for profit and then has other sources of income perhaps from employment or other businesses that they operate but what we're really focused upon is to see what's the what's the use of the piece of machinery and is that machinery used on a commercial farm. But they have other sources of income That's really not an area of focus for us I don't know what else you'd use a cattle trailer for it. Thank you we understand. Senator Jeff feel you're recognized thank you Mr chairman is a simple last I would request to the chair of that each part of the money that we have. We receive a copy of the balance. Of what the fund is used for. And the percentage of votes necessary to pass anything out of those particular parts of my. Are you don't have fund balances yes okay. We have several plots an act I'm not sure that everybody on this committee knows what those pots of money on it would just make sure I've got clarification do you mean like funds that I feel that that I have funds we know we have to have two thirds with some simple majority okay so restricted reserve aren't the right and then I'm assuming stuff catastrophic yes okay but you're not talking about. You know that the set aside for dumps and all the rest that so there's a bunch of fund balances out there that aren't real your. You that makes sense yeah I mean there's lots of money that this committee may have to deal with. Okay that's right thank you very much. Senator Hammer you're recognized. Thank you Mr on the one just a couple questions I'm looking at the charts with all the numbers in the individual categories first of all the ones are classified as C. B. E. I read the cover sheet got the explanation do you anticipate that they'll ever be a time in the future that those categories will not be classified as C. B. E. because new informational be forth coming where we could assign a value senator we're always looking at that we're always hopeful that's going to happen obviously it's frustrating for us when we can't find anything that we feel is reliable in order to give you an answer in those areas I guess the only good news or the silver lining in that is they tend to be the smaller dollar value things but I understand that when where and how we can get good information will actually do it. How long would you leave them on the list and I mean these are your projected out for six years and some of them are are the same thing for six years out what's the value of leaving them there. The C. the CBOE ones what what we've got here is just a standardized approach and so we treated all of them the same it even if we didn't have information but obviously we'll continue to update and review this and so if there's some new access to data in the future will go in and change those an update those with real information okay and then the ones that have the little I don't know what to how to identify cone it would look like there may be negative a ramp below expectations that little symbol of take line ninety six vehicles purchased by technical community colleges does that mean that they call the collected lesser explain that if you would please the Asterix senator the evening up or. Or do you mean no less than sign yes or the less and so in other words what that is saying is that somewhere between zero and that number it's not an exact estimate that it's point one but but rather it's it's a very small number in that instance all right so those those should be considered a fairly insignificant yes Sir that is correct okay and then my last question is this some of the some of the deductions if I'm interpreting this right some of the deductions appear to be going up as the years go on take for example one oh two a food food ingredients reduce rated point zero one twenty five search office four oh two and you get over a twenty eight year twenty eight and it's four forty nine does that mean they're receiving a greater tax break as time goes on says Senator you're talking about the food sales tax reduction yes that that incorporates into it the concept that the food prices will be going up over time I'm not sure what exactly inflation expectation that our folks use but that the food prices will be going up and therefore the value of not paying taxes on it is greater for gone revenue that's what that's implying okay so in the overall scheme of things when we talk about cutting taxes and other areas how do we take all of this and make sure that is calculated into that discussion if we're going to be lowering taxes elsewhere if some of these numbers are trending up how's that going to impact the other decisions we may be making the Sir I would submit to you that the the most practical way to use this vis a vis those future decisions that you'll be looking at is is to take these and say I've got these exemptions today if I was to change the exemptions make them greater or make them last what would that do to my revenue stream and then. What would that do to the available money I have moved forward in other words with this stuff is basically baked in our forecasting cake today so the the most appropriate way to think about these vis a vis your future tax decisions is to say and I'm not suggesting this recommending this by any stretch but but if you said we're going to rivers the food sales tax exemption how much incremental revenue could I expect and then you could look on that chart and then that would give you an idea obviously that's not a recommendation but that would be one way to look at these as opposed to one of those tiny exemptions if you said if I eliminated that exemption how much incremental revenue with that give me to perhaps applied to a different take a tax cut so what this really does is helps you see where today's exemptions are in terms of how much money that we're currently exempting. All right could we get let's say could we get a total let down at the bottom under one twenty six could you get a just assigned a total dollar value plus and minus up for each one of the columns we could see how it progresses over the years based on your estimates senator I'll tell you the reason that we didn't do that and the reason that it's very challenging to do it's because of the E. the interaction of several tax cuts so if you take food taxes for example or maybe two or three different tax cuts that affect it so if you just change one thing it may be something else is also being double counted so it's it's difficult to say in Compton composite it looks like acts no what we probably could do if you if you think this would be helpful is is come up with what I'm gonna call ranges so that you know if this one is overlapping with this one and there's some double counting the money because if you cut here cut it there and then we we kinda have ranges that would give you some notion of what those totals look like but but since so many of these things overlap it's difficult to pick you know the number is seven for everything combined thank you would like that because maybe I'm looking at it wrong but I think you for going to see the amount of deductions going up as the years go over based on inflation or whatever else it is I'd want to know what that is before we make decisions about other tax cuts and less a mission that you correct me if I'm wrong. No Sir I I understand what you're saying and obviously you're not wrong and I would I would just submit to you separately is you know if you're thinking about what are we projecting for revenues you know that's a separate exercise that's are forecasting group and and those are the folks that are kind of thinking about not just the impact of tax exemptions but what is the economy doing what is employment doing what are all these other things doing and that's probably are going to be your best read on what we're expecting in the future on revenue versus just looking at one little subset of what it is but I'm happy to give you those totals range that you're asking for of course if you'd like to see that information will provide a what thank you. President will your recognized thank you Mr chairman of Mister Collins on page three. It looks like to me the largest exemption of all these is for gasoline or motor fuel is that four hundred ninety nine point one is that a half a billion dollars. Yes Sir so what does that. Who receives all the exemption. And that's based on the retail price of of gasoline so so essentially a representative Wooten this is because we do not have a sales tax on gasoline is you know of course we have different taxes on fuel the answer to my question so I'm sorry you so you're you're but you're you're showing that it is an exemption because the yes that's never been the case in the state of four what what do we included whether we show those is an exemption. What a layman. We've never there's never been a sales tax until the diesel half percent but what whether we show others an exemption Senator we went through the lawn anything that is exempt from sales tax it what is the exemption when it's never been given to get gas sales taxes now to me if you sent something that means you tax bill at one time R. I. C. yes Sir no and I never we've never had a sales tax and deliberation one. Is this never considered is revenues that were been considered as revenue which is a study yes yes Sir you're actually right what I'll do is I'll put that one below the line to demonstrate that it's a different category of thank you what what are we even include I mean I of the I don't we never we never got it we're never took it how do you exempt something that you never had or you never were legally. To do I mean I just don't make any sense well what it what it does to a representative wouldn't and I'm not recommending this to but if somebody said you know we want to look at should we continue to exempt that this just makes it clear or not exempt I mean what how can. My point being Mr chairman if your bare roots my point is we've never collection of sales tax on gasoline yes Sir so what are what are we even involve that is an exemption because the state never had the exemption is when you give something up to a me that maybe you have collected and you decided to give an exemption to it we never have collected sales tax on gasoline so we're not we're not giving away. I have a billion dollars of taxpayers money the way this report Ridge is that not correct and I look in the amount of amount of seeing something yes Sir I think everything you're saying is absolutely true and and and I'm happy if you want me to take it off and I'm I'm comfortable doing that if you want an explanation for why it's on there the explanation as we looked at the laws and there's a law that exempts gasoline so because there's a lot that does that we included that gives a misnomer and there may be some other some others I don't hear in yes I would think Mr chairman we need to look at that to get a true reflection of exactly how much there are actually exemptions because we can exempt something that would never tax. The best correct representative will. I would around you may have been around back in the forties and fifties. Well there may have been a law that exempted it I I and I'm not sure at B. they did that be a deep research but I I thank I don't think it's on the books that these are exempted that's fine and that that's why I think they're doing this on this report thank you Mr chairman thank you must go thank you representa senator did you have a question. Hello go ahead no just point of clarification on page ten under number eighty the it seems to me that the law clearly states that it's exam so that's why I was included I just wanted to. Asked thank you senator for finding that yes ma'am that's correct okay it's number eighty on page ten thank you thank you senator. All right seeing what representative flyers you got a question FOR D. F. and I yes and just for clarification to so without these. Codified exemptions then there would have been a sales tax without the law that said there wouldn't be or any other exemption. Represent flowers so what we have is a sales and use tax that applies to all sales of tangible personal property for a specific services. And certain digital products and so the the law says that if it's a tangible personal property which which gasoline would be tangible personal property it would otherwise be exempt but because we have we have a specific exemption in the law for gasoline because we have a separate process for taxing gasoline through an excise tax on motor fuel otherwise if you would go to the the gas pumps during the day retailers might change their price throughout the day depending upon what market factors are the very the impossible for that retailer to collect a specific sales tax at a certain percentage based upon the price of gasoline is it fluctuates throughout the day instead what we have is a cents per gallon tax that is a so it's a it's a volumetric tax as opposed to an excise tax now we do have a a different additional excise tax on motor fuel and diesel but it's based upon an index of what the price the wholesale price of a motor fuel and diesel was over a specific period that occurs in the past but your point is exactly correct we have a a statute on on in Arkansas a law that says that the sales and use tax will not apply to sales of motor fuel and it was included in this report because it was a specific exemption as provided under Arkansas law and ACT eight nineteen which from directed DFA to prepare this report we had to look at every sales tax exemption number income tax exemption and include the revenue impact even though that we're we wouldn't ordinarily be collecting the sales tax because we we collect an excise tax on diesel using a volumetric cents per gallon rate thank you. All right members. Revenge of all give you got a question for definitely. you're recognized. On the border city exemption it doesn't state I'm from a border city asylum springs Arkansas doesn't state what border cities are exempt if someone could give me a list of those I would appreciate it I will do that thank thank you. Representative Cavenaugh if you have questions. Yes Sir. Thank you my question is going to be dealing with the exemption on the motor vehicle rental business we're if it's a rental fleet you don't pay your sales tax you pay it as you rent that out if you all could just give me some information I'd appreciate it can you get me the information of how much we're actually collecting on the rental vehicles because I want to compare it to what we're given up an exemption and how much we're actually collecting on the rental of those vehicles. Yes ma'am we will get you that thank you thank you saying no more questions your excuse. Thank you committee Mister chair. All right members we've got Adam B. three which is item for review this is the Arkansas state parks budget expenses for the year. Give me a minute to look over got a question for state parks here if not. Not seeing any other this item stand reviewed will go to be for. This is a treasury this is the last six months of the year the trade report is this just a for your information only. They by need to. State treasurer appear. If not we've got a couple of bills that we're going to do today will go to the House packet first. And Mister Anderson you're recognized thank you Mr chairman in the House packet that's the H. in the upper right hand corner this list all the House bills that have been referred to the Joint Budget Committee we have house bill on page one house bill ten fifty two the soybean promotion board chairman this bill does not have any holes in it is ready okay house Bill ten fifty two we have a motion I have a motion and a second any discussion all in favor say aye any opposed. Mr chairman on page two house bill ten fifty six corn and grain sorghum promotion board house bill ten fifty six to have a motion and a second any discussion all in favor say aye opposed house bill ten fifty seven rice and research promotion board ten fifty seven we have a motion a motion and a second any discussion all in favor say aye opposed the last one in the House packet house bill ten fifty eight we promotion board ten fifty eight motion and a second any discussion. All in favor say aye opposed we'll go to the Senate package thank you Mr chairman S. in the upper right hand corner on page one Senate bill ten catfish promotion board Senate bill ten motion and a second any discussion all in favor say aye opposed still on page one Senate bill twelve beef council. Senate bill twelve in a motion and a second any discussion all in favor say aye opposed the Sherman Texas to page nine in this section I am. This is Senate bill forty six this is for the office of governor this is for a supplemental for current year for his legislative liaisons this is drafted due to the governor's letter that was adopted last meeting we have the governors wrote last week of pays liaison for this section any questions I have a motion and a second any discussion all in favor say aye opposed. Members at the members you have it in front of yet is the subcommittee roster. Of make sure you. Your view it so you know what subcommittee your own it's also on the website. We will meet at the call of the chair of the rest this week there are no planned meetings but we may have a call the chair so just watch the of internet and listen as we journey to stay where where I have a special of budget meeting we are adjourned thank you for your time.