Judiciary Committee - Senate

Senate meeting of judiciary order. First item on the agenda I'm going to That an amendment to Senate bill one ninety nine. And I will last Senator flowers if you will go in texture. Okay. Senator Stubblefield understand this is. An amendment that's already engrossed in Senate bill one ninety nine that's correct that's what we're looking at committee members. Recognize yourself and proceed arts center Gary Stubblefield from that district twenty six this very simple Amendment all it does is reduce the statue of limitations that was originally thirty years in the bill back to fifteen years. You think it makes it a better bill. Well listen I visited with the number of doctors. Last week. And I will I will tell you what one doctor told me. What is the only thing wrong with this bill was not it wouldn't file ten years ago so this this. What kind of doctor with that. I'm not gonna share his profession that medical yes was it educational not always medical doctor sent flowers. I'd like to ask the committee first senator rice if they have any questions committee members do you have any questions. Comments. We do have people that are signed up. Just speak. This is all on this thanks to speak on the bill at some we're not against on the amendment. Okay all right. I had a question for you too because I think I missed the day that you presented the original bill correct. And I wanted to know. Even with your change. That you're proposing today of fifteen years in terms of a statute of limitations. That's after discovery of some harm or injury done to the individual right right right emotional psychological or physical injury. So do you think that. There might be trouble. Or it might be a problem with getting evidence. That would support any claim or cause of action. Against the doctor I think there will be evidence for a cause of action for. Some of these peoples and entire life because from the from the medical professionals I've spoken to many of these people will suffer from psychological emotional physical damage for the rest of their lives what a mess these are medical doctors okay what what I'm asking Senator Stubblefield is do you think there would be sufficient evidence after fifteen are at up to fifteen years that could. Support and sustain a cause of action doctors are you asking my personal opinion yes yes I serve you through okay all right that's good enough. We have a. Thank. Sign. Let me date. The Committee debate. The. Well. Who are. We will turn on your Mike. Bye motion is to limit debate five minutes per side for those you say you are signed up we we spent two hours in debate the other day and this changes only the. Thirty year for liability to a fifteen year a bill that's my motion. What what I see in this room is a lot of people from the public. And I personally don't agree with limiting the debate when you see citizens having come here to speak to us this committee manager. Yes senator. A lot of these people are not here for this bill some are but a lot of these people are here for a another bill that will be hearings for did you cameras these people vote you know I did not. Ballinger. Senator Rice thank you for understanding or three people to Senate bill SB one ninety nine the motion on the table. Three. As a motion to limit the debate or limit the witnesses testimony to five minutes. Inside. Any comments or questions about it. Seeing none. All those in favor say aye okay all those opposed no no. I'd have it. So the first person. Is Allison Grigsby Sweatman a citizen against your. If you have a seat. Turn on the Mott and Reckon by yourself. Then you can proceed thank you hold on a second yes ma'am what men. Yes senator Clark on the bill sure understand or procedure. Of we have not adopted the amendment right. Right. Okay it's it's engrossed in the bill. Okay all right thank you. Go ahead miss what man thank you and thank you all for having us here today and allowing us to speak. I'm my name is Allison and I am a licensed mental health professional and disability advocate here in central Arkansas. Reshape the hard work that you're all doing listening to us and hearing a lot of criticism I know that that can't be easy in today I'm not here to criticize but to invite you to emphasize. I've heard it said in the two hours of discussion last week that we don't have enough data about suicidality in transgender youth. And I appreciate that we're even considering suicidality because as a mental health professional I work every week with kids and you. Who don't want to live anymore these children summer transgender and some are not but I'm very familiar with working with that experience in the use of Arkansas. It is true and we do have the data to support that suicidality in trans youth is increasing as we have storms of legislation against them. And I am deeply concerned about the culture that is creating in Arkansas I can tell you that the clients who I work with some of who are dial are diagnosed with gender dysphoria some of whom are not someone who are judges questioning some are safe in their homes and appear to support them and some who don't they are paying painfully close attention to what's happening here. And they are watching closely it is affecting their mental health. In in the concern of confidentiality I don't want to say much more about that except to say that I am face to face with these you for every weekend I also want to say again it's suicidality if the suicidality that is increasing because of this legislation and others that I come here today and it's not to push that agenda any agenda besides this to keep transmute alive so that they can grow into trans adults in the state of Arkansas. That's the purpose that I am here for and I think I can speak for a lot of others were here to speak today and who weren't able to come today when I say that again thank you so much for having me here and I appreciate the work that you all do. Thank you miss what committee any questions of the witness Senators chess arena Stubblefield. One turn your Mike on. One respond to what she said in two thousand eleven there was a switch study done where the author for able to examine the medical records of every person in Sweden. underwent gender reassignment surgery over a thirty year period the study found that a number of physical and mental health problems were elevated in at the rate of just completed suicides or nineteen times higher than that of the general Swedish population. Senator Tucker you have a question. This may not be the appropriate time but I'll I'm just curious I know we already voted on this but how many people are signed up on this particular bill two for and one against okay I mean one one four and two against okay I just I know we voted on the motion but I just want to make sure the people who who showed up today to speak had a chance to and I think they will so thank you madam chair right and then the questions of the witnesses from the committee members do not count toward that sides time so at this point there's a little over three minutes left for against rule thank you any other questions of this witness Mrs what man. Not thank you for your testimony Tony road here to speak for. Please identify yourself who you're with. You're recognized to speak thank you my name is Tony road I'm with the co founder of an American speaks I'm going to recap what I'll a couple of phrases from my testimony last week. And this is the thirty year Swedish study that I referred to sex reassigned persons was higher during the follow up. Than for controls of the same birth sex particularly death from suicide sex reassigned persons at an increased risk for suicide attempts psychiatric in patient care. A female to males but not mail the males had a higher risk of criminal convictions the conclusions were that sex reassignment may not suffice as treatment for transsexual is a mention inspire improved psychiatric and somatic Care after sex reassignment for this group. The honeymoon period from one to five years generally results in some. Rather positive feedback for many people that have undergone treatment for gender dysphoria through surgery. And blockers but after that beginning about ten years after having the surgery the transgender began to experience increasing mental difficulties and this is a prominent psychiatrists former John Hopkins hospital psychiatric psychiatrist in chief Dr Paul R. McHugh. Thank you wrote in the Wall Street journal most shockingly their suicide mortality rose almost twenty fold above the comparable non trans gender population. So what I would urge Senator Stubblefield is to not shop any more years out of this bill because of the ten year benchmark is significant and the dissatisfaction and the of mental instability and the suicide rate. So that that'll take any questions that anyone might have. Questions of the witness members. Not thank you for your testimony thank you actually have another one signed up for so that. Is one more against in one four four next we'll have Reverend moon Richey my character. A law o'connell. Against. Please identify yourself who you with and you may proceed my name is Reverend Marie Maynard o'connell I'm a parent of a trans child and I'm a minister here in the little rock area I'm speaking because this amendment does not go far enough in that it does not address the issues contained within the safe harbor I also have serious questions that have not been answered by Senator Stubblefield in my correspondence with him in the safe harbor section if it indicates that a mental health professional has to assure that there is no other mental health condition in the child's namely depression or eating disorders both issues that can be caused by gender dysphoria but also autism and ADHD and as of yet I am I'm clear as to why autism and ADHD our diagnoses that would prevent a child from being able to have treatment a previous person spoke to the effects of surgery but gender dysphoria does not always entail treatment with surgery is often it does entail treatment with reversible human hormones and my concern is as a parent whose child would otherwise fit to the safe harbor designations that if this bill passes my child will be prevented from being able to have the treatment according to their current diagnosis and that would be against the Americans with disabilities act because my child also has one of those diagnoses limited mentioned. My question which has not been answered is why autism and ADHD eating disorders are listed in this bill as items that a person cannot have and receive gender dysphoria treatment I will take questions as a parent. Thank you Revenue Connell I don't know Senator Stubblefield wants to address your question or not if you can if you would like. Okay early. Any questions from the committee. It's not thank you for your testimony. God bless. Then we have next for. The. The men men is my fall the econ Cisco Daryl. Please identify yourself who you're with and you're recognized to speak. Thank you very much for this opportunity to earn your Michael. It's on. Yeah my name is my father Custer scored they don't. I am a US citizen originally from Chile South America we did a Vietnam veteran and member of the intelligence community in the United States I've been living in United States for thirty five years. And I am a victim of communism and what I want to share with this committee today is my personal experience in Conway and the library. I am a senior and certainly I want to build a say what happened to me. Ma'am we're on Senate bill. Nine I understand here we are here to it It sigh why we should not allow our children's V. indoctrinated and all this agenda issue I think you're you're speaking to Senate bill eighty one the library bill is that what you're here for yeah for the eighty one this is not it this is Senate bill one ninety nine all I'm sorry no problems so I have to wait what. Yes okay thank you for. Okay there are no other signed up to speak for or against the bill Senator Stubblefield if you don't mind me asking this one question and I think this is key to that engrossed part the fifteen year. And as I said I was in here I'm sorry I wasn't here for the original debate on your bill but on page three. Do you have the your your bill down there with you. No I do not have the bill you're with me. Well it meets a civil action under subdivision to be one of this section shall be filed not later than fifteen years after the date. It's the minor turns eighteen years of age. R. would have turned eighteen years of age. If the minor dies at. Before turning eighteen years of age I mean the statue limitations would be thirty three. They would be thirty three years. Well if the minor is dead I'm I'm not understaffed. I'm not following that. Line. It would have turned eighteen years of age if the minor dies at. Are you saying the state has a cause of action what the no. What does that mean. If the minor dies a minor dies. But this is a civil action. Shall not be fight I guess if he died no civil action saying okay. Thank you manager of a motion. What your motion my motion to adopt Senate bill one ninety nine entertainment is already engrossed in the bill of rights for good vote. So he's asking you're asking that the your motion is to adopt Senate bill one ninety nine as a core engrossed correct with the amendment. And I guess Senator Gilmore is seconding back mode. Any discussion. All those in favor say aye. Against No. I have it Senator Stubblefield. Your bill has. Past is amended thank you madam chair. The next item on the agenda is so Senate bill eighty one. Senator Solomon for a bill to the end of the table and then for yourself you're recognized. Senator Dan Sullivan Senate district twenty. We have an amendment we need to adopt on this first. Yes are you already explained the amendment of the members going to explain the members that we. If you look on page two we're deleting person and substituting person knowingly. Which such a lot lower threshold. And Page two line twenty eight recklessly furnishes to furnishes. Page two line thirty one knowingly transmits and substitute transmits. Hi line three from claimed to determined again this such a very low threshold. On line five there Sir in the that line it talks about how many people must be on that committee we're essentially getting rid of those numbers and just say you have to have a committee. So I think the overall the bill lowers the threshold at which one might be accused of violating the law. Question okay. Just just to make sure I understand I think it actually raises the threshold does not center to wait out a higher standard higher standard okay thank you and I appreciate you bringing these amendments thank you Senator Tucker you have questions. Yes Sir on the amendment. I see the where on on page offers false. Section four. Of the bill what page you on again. Before I get into the specific question the amendment I just establishing section four of the bill that's kind of a process for schools and section five as a process for County municipal libraries correct. Yes. So I understand that with the amendment on page five. Line two and three year taking out those numbers for the number of people that have to be required on the committee for section four correct correct. If you look at section five. On page eight. Line two. It still has those numbers of five or seven. For the county municipal libraries. Am I be willing to make that change we made this early this morning so appointed to make that change Mister chair I'm willing to stay out late to that amount it out my apologies AT and sit on the amendment my apologies. Is that are you have Sturch Tucker. Senator flowers give questions. Senator Solomon I'm trying to follow your management. And the ward was just Discuss. On page five. Line two. You delete. Five four. And then on that same page line three. Seven. So so would The Amendment then the bill was read jealous shall select a committee. Correct of license personnel. I not licensed library personnel. It doesn't say look library personnel. The it started line one on page five. And reads in conducting a review of material being challenged the principal of the school district shall select a committee of and your striking the leading five. And the next line two delete eighteen seven so then it would read shall select a committee of license personnel correct. So no no number and no how many. We're leaving that up to the school. Licensed personnel would those be teachers. Correct. Anyone who is licensed in the district. A nurse. Anyone who's yes ma'am correct anyone who is licensed. Okay. And then on the same. Same line of question on page. Eight one one. You do Leding five. And seven of light the library personnel. So. Read this bill. Librarian are the county librarian shall select a committee of library personnel. You deleting the number correct of persons to serve on the committee. And leaving that up to the county or the municipality. That right yes ma'am. What do you envision. That committee to look like. Whatever they determine I mean it's up to them to determine who the license personnel are. I mean I I envision it looking like the county or the school district determined. Well there's small libraries in. in their county libraries. That are small in terms of personnel so could one person serve. On the lady correct just one person make the. The termination correct. Okay. Thank you Mr mayor of. Service center the more you have a question. Thank you Mr Senator Solomon with was the amendment not correct if I get this wrong but I believe the amendment was to address concerns for let's say smaller rule libraries that may not have five to seven personnel but still be able to be in compliance by forming a Committee that's the reason for taking of numbers out is that not correct correct thank you. Senator Tucker your question. Thank you Mr we're just reviewing this member for the first time right right now and I don't know if the public had an opportunity to review it. He. While I have now had a chance to review more thoroughly than when I ask my first question I still haven't had an opportunity to visit with librarians in my Senate district about this and I am wondering if if you might be willing to get your amendment engrossed in and bring it back and that way we have an opportunity to review a more full and communicate with libraries in our district about the bill after the amendment before we voted on it in committee our talk with a lot of this is one of the things they requested so no I'm not willing to pull it down. Thank you. Any other questions from committee. Senator Gilmore you're recognized. Is there someone I appreciate you bringing this amendment we we talked at length yesterday and work through some of these things and mention some concerns that I've heard from the individuals in my district and other concerned parties on this bill and I'll try to move my closer Senator. And so I appreciate you working through some of these to addressing the concerns so To your point. This amendment to base your knowledge may not alleviate every concern but it certainly leave Eads a lot of concerns that individuals had correct thank you. Are there any other questions from committee members. Saying. Senate Senator flowers. Thank you. Senator Solomon your amendment. With the lead on page two. Line twenty eight. Recklessly furnishes. And substitute. For that just partnerships. So. I want to know why would you remove reckless you think. The liability issues extended to a librarian. that. Maybe has. Had a catalog or been furnished to a set of books by some database I'm not sure how libraries Get the content. That is in a library times the books. But do you. Anticipate that the librarian would have read all the books in the library. Do I expect that now. But. You charge them. Under this amendment not was recklessly but just by furnishing it with Adam on page three. it line sixteen it's only speak into the Mike please second. Are you. I can't hear. Page three line sixteen. It talks about it that would not have until after it was determined that the material violated the statute. So that means that if they are that kind of removes that recklessly so it would be determined and then after that we're determined that they would understand material after it was already determined that the material violated the law. That's on Page three line sixteen. That's where you're removing. Claimed and your substituting determined. Correct so the. The concern after begin talking with hundreds of people in meeting with the library association and the state school board association that. That was a threshold that. People were concerned about I understand that so we change that to after it was determined the material was about broke the law and against the law then they furnish so that's what we said removed recklessly furnished and say furnishes. Well does your Amendment anticipate that a committee. Will examine all of the books in a library prior to being checked out no ma'am. So in terms that one there have to be a complaint and the complaint is is the way that complaint process is laid out is in the bill. Starting about on page to line twenty six it lays out of what the what their process is a process isn't someone files a complaint the complaint goes to the library and then it goes to a committee whether that school or public libraries it goes to a committee and then it goes in the committee on the committee it could go to the our county judge of the county quorum court for schools are close to the from the library into a Committee and then to the school board and school board agreed the final arbiter. So a complaint. The complaint process can start. After a book it's been checked out. R. before it would be a complaint could be at any time it would necessarily have to be checked out now. But if it is checked out. Would there be liability attached on that person who is working of personnel of the library system. No matter what we enjoy line three to determine so it's after upon line three Page three line sixteen that's what we change that to determined and that's why knowingly is in there. So it is anticipated that a committee will meet for determination of on a complaint before any kind of liability could attach correct and there's several levels there. Correct complaint may go from the. Librarian to the committee to the quorum court yard thank you senator flowers. Any other committee members of the. Gilmore you have questions no I was just going to offer a motion to adopt the amendment so we can be begin discussion on the bill okay part we have a motion to adopt the amendment. Any discussion. Second all those in favor say aye opposed. The members been adopted we have twenty three people signed up to speak so we're going to go and do what we did last week. Ugh can I get a motion Senator Tucker here giving give some state senator. You might. Well committee members have an opportunity to ask questions before we go to public debate I just wanna make sure that we're doing that from eight from each person the test five no for the bill sponsor from the Committee sure. Sure. If you have a motion. We turned it. Thank you for. Okay is there discussion on the adoption of the amendment. Yes saying saying none sent flowers I'm running this hi. You don't need any help. We have twenty twenty three people signed up to speak. so we're going to rely each member two minutes. Just come to this in the table speak and take questions member I mean of those signed up to speak for against the bill. What we need a motion to limit. Senator Clark I just gonna ask you Mr there. That's going to be after we adopt the amendment and after Senator Solomon president is bill correct. Correct correct correct thank you. You want you want to make a motion. Senator Solomon you will present your bill is amended. Thank you for sharing thank you Committee. Your in general if you your committee community if I reached out to you about concerns in books passages of books and and complete books this bill seeks to help us have and codify a system so that all the libraries in this state and all the schools in this state have a consistent way of that appeal process hopefully the goal is that folks can solve these processes and these issues at the local level that's the goal and I think many libraries to that but so we're going to codify what that process is and that's laid out the bill and as I said before it starts out with a complaint schools and public libraries that they make a complaint to the library and then it goes on to a committee and then from there on the county level it goes up to the quorum court or the mayor in the school it goes to the from the librarian to a committee and then to the A school board and they have the final determination that's what the bill seeks to do. schools already have a process recommended we just pull down their process at the school and codify that so all schools will have the same system schools are now required to have a policy but there's no consistency not necessarily consistency there this makes that codifies their system the only change we made to it at the building level currently when it goes in the school library and to the school committee that is a closed can be a closed door meeting this bill makes it out of subject to open meetings law so they would have to have the the meeting in front of anybody that want to be there and make that determination and then if one wanted to appeal that it will go on after the school board which is already elected officials the goal again is to let the appeal process end with elected officials not a bureaucracy are committee but the appeal process on one and ends with the mayor or quorum court on the other end input that elected school board. To get in the but the bill the first section deals with obscenity law and obscenity law is current obscenity law we are not changing the definition of obscenity what we are changing is Is culpable for obscenity and we're only doing that for schools and public libraries. Right now librarians both public school and public libraries are excluded from obscenity law. Excluded from obscenity law this bill removes that exclusion I don't think there's anyone that's above the law I don't think we should have people who have special stature including our librarians being. What are covered by the substantive law you will notice I think it's on page. On page four section four Arkansas Code six days twenty five dot and dash one oh five only refers to to K. twelve schools it does not apply to hire it. Mr I'm going to kind of run through these little bit quickly so you can get the comments I think people have heard a lot about this again we have met with a number of people the county the state library association the school board association I've met with numerous librarians I think with the point that we have a bill that both sides are probably low but I'm happy with. I will make this statement we. Contacted numerous libraries in the state. I want to read from who have as a part of their policy the American library association which is in the policy. Library policies and procedures that effectively deny minors and equitable access to all library resources and services available to other users is in violation of the American library association bill of rights so they have their own independent bill of rights the American library association oppose all attempts to restrict library access to services materials facilities based on the age of the library user. It further state that children and young adults on questionable process first amendment rights including the right to receive information to the library and print sound images data social media online applications games technologies programming in other formats. Because these are constitutionally protected speech cannot be suppressed solely to protect children are young adults. Cannot be protected. From these ideas or images. I hope you have a information on your deskside thing that demonstrate just a few of the items that are available according to the American library association and according to the policy of the libraries it has embedded in it the American library association they're stating that no one of any age should be barred from saying the material material you have in front of you that's in their policy and I think Arkansas needs policy at all you know what we added to the bill. Was On page two line twenty six we had some new language there. And what that does is entered what is off we already have code to protect children we don't let kids smoke we don't let kids drink we don't let him drive we don't let a man got the list can go forever we protect children in this way this bill seeks to add library material that it's inappropriate to that list of things the state of Arkansas is willing to do to protect our children. And with that Mister chair I will you can see that that's on page three line twenty four with this loans at the library we just put that in there and also focuses this bill only applies to libraries other businesses are already covered by said obscenity law the media industry the only people that were exempt from obscene material. Our librarians and school and public so everybody else is already under obscenity law and that Mister chair I will close and take any questions our committee of our next election the bill or any questions Senator Tucker. Thank you Mr. Sir I'm just gonna start were you were you just finished in section you're referencing section to where you said only schools and libraries were exempt from this law but if you look at section two. It says. That schools museums and public libraries are exempt and you remove the exemption for schools and public libraries but you do not remove the exemption for museums I stand corrected thank you yeah I haven't had any complaints of museums and as or representative of the people of my district and hearing from a lot of people in the state they they just haven't reached out for that so I'm only addressing the concerns that the people came out to me if somebody comes to your money including museums course you're welcome to. Draft amendment to that. The reason I'm asking that is is not to say For the real reason is because you know you can sort of Allen this philosophy about how obscene material should not be first miners there should be no exemptions but I'm just curious for your thought process whether you've had a complaint or not. Why I'm using Ms. Courted the rationale you laid out for the bill should not also have their exemption removed again as I said I I people in my community and I think around the state I've not heard that complaint. If you look at section three of the bill on page three. These first few sections the first three sections or dealing with criminal liability correct. Correct. And we're talking about obscenity. There's. Commonplace the tap the commonplace test that uses the Miller test that was established by the Supreme Court United States in the early nineteen seventies correct. Center I'm not an attorney and I'm not going to get into a legal debate this is been viewed by many attorneys that stand by this bill and I'm sure attorneys enjoyed arguing with each other I'm not going to to argue with you on what the date was that that happened I'm not interested in argument on that I was having a general I want to establish the point that. Before this bill becomes law fits to pass generally speaking librarians use a set of criteria to determine whether material is obscene or not. And the criteria that they use for established by a case in front of the Supreme Court United States is commonly known as the Miller case. Is that your understanding yes but I know that the This exemption for librarians I think happened in the seventies so we existed our nation existed far from our beginning until the nineteen seventies without them being exempted and for some reason someone determined That all the sudden librarians would not be exempt from obscenity law so we've existed a long time without librarians being except. In section three of the bill. At which again is dealing with the crime and and section two is a defense to a crime but if you look at section three on lines twenty nine and thirty six. Someone's only guilty of these obscenity crimes. If the material that they were distributing. Was judicially found to be obscene. Correct. You're going to tell me where you're going pretty twenty trying to what what's the point that you're asking me my question the question relates to section two. We have that same criteria. For the crimes. That librarians no longer have a defense to from section two who's who's determining. What a what they have is obscene prosecutor The prosecutor not a judge or the judge or determine a prosecutor would determine whether or not they were the court what that case should go before a judge so right absolutely judge would determine that I think that's current law okay are you to diversify my understanding you that your challenge challenging what current obscenity laws no I'm questioning because I haven't read every section of the code related to obscenity but I saw a book before I vote on this I want to know whether. This section two of the bill deals with section five dash sixty eight dash three oh eight of the code. That section establishes a defense to certain obscenity crimes I don't know what all the terms of an element of those obscenity crimes are because I've not read all the sections of the code as a bill sponsor I'm asking you if you know whether the elements of those crimes. Establish that in order for material to be obscene in them and the librarians to be prosecuted under those laws. If it's a judicial determination of obscenity or not or some other determination we we currently have obscenity law right and that law is applicables to everybody in the state except for librarians so we are just putting librarians under the same. Status that every citizen of State of Arkansas's under so they don't have it an exemption they don't get a get out of jail card free they're going to have the same status as all the rest of us and I would assume that there are a lot of good attorneys who vetted obscenity law and all we're doing is bringing them librarians and teachers into the same standard. If if you look at sex we will talk about this when I was asking of questions on the amendment earlier sections four and five essentially set up. The process. For for members of the public to challenge material and other school library in section four or county or municipal aber in section five right. But my first question about the sections we'll just take section four because a lack of the questions really are the same for both sections. If you look at page five. Down at the bottom. And that's subsection eleven that starts on line thirty four. Be with me yes it just says the committee established under this section shall vote to determine whether the material being challenge shall be removed. And my my question is what criteria will they use to make that determination or didn't I thank you previously you said that they had a stand of standard measures they used I would take your testimony is being yeah they have a standard to remove that. I don't the reason I'm asking I would hope that would be the case but the reason I'm asking is I don't see that language in the in the bill anywhere it appears to me based on the language in the bill. That they could use virtually any criteria they want to determine whether to remove material. Correct. Whether it's the Miller test or not correct. So they could. The only criterion I see in the bill. It's on page five. Look the starting on line seventeen and it says material or sixteen material being challenged shall not be withdrawn solely for the viewpoints expressed within the material so the way I read that. Yes and again I'm or I'm not repeating myself but they could aside from the viewpoints expressed within the material they could decide to remove material for any reason unrelated to the Miller test or not well I think they have policies I'm sure they have policy and they develop their policy and their if they follow their policy I would assume that there are have done what they're supposed to do they follow their policy this bill just says you have to have a policy and all it does is say if you disagree with the policy and you disagree with the determination you have a a venue to move it to all the way through the process up to elected officials so if if there if that process is in place and they have fulfill their obligation to have a policy. I guess my main question is there's no criteria for what has to be on the policy in the bill so why berries in the state customers policies for any any reason they want except for something that a policy related solely to the viewpoint expressed within the material. Correct. The most of my next week that we're trying to you know what I don't want to micromanage libraries they have as I've seen multiple. I'm sorry I'm waiting till folks are done please listen. Or or or holding a meeting. In Philly by disruptions meeting trust me I will have you removed. Defense to the point we're not trying to micromanage what their policies are they have to have a policy they have to follow that policy and then there now is codified a policy for appeal for not trying to change what libraries are doing now but parents and others have many questions about material in the library and right now that appeal ends within a bureaucracy with appointed people this move that appeal process up to elected officials school boards are elected quorum courts and city councils are elected all this does it doesn't change their policy it just says whatever your policy is. People have a right to appeal that decision up through what the locally elected officials are. Okay my my next question since the sticking with that same one that I last referenced on starting on line sixteen on page five it says material beings challenge shall not be withdrawn solely for the viewpoints expressed within the material and my question is about the inclusion of that war solely because I read that to mean. You can. Exclude material based on the viewpoint expressed within it if you have another factor to consider as well I think there are a lot of attorneys disagree with you because it's been vetted clearly by the BLR it's been vetted by multiple levels of attorneys within the state government and outside and I think there are things that were just disagree on as you said you you thank your beliefs that I disagree would you. Be open to removing the word solely and that way we're not able to remove material for viewpoints expressed within whether there's another reason to excluded or not no. You mentioned the appeal process to elected officials. Whether to school board on the school side or a city four or quorum court on a city or county side. As we discussed right now it's up to a judge. Because these are a legal test established by the Supreme Court United States determine whether materials obscene or not did you consider having the appeal process go to a court of law on to a judge rather than to. Elected officials yes and why did you decide on the elected officials rather than a court of law I think that's what the prosecutor would do. The prosecutor will look at and say this is this is violates the law or it doesn't I'm just taking it up through the elected official again I think if you discreet my judgment that's fine that's what the law this so when you reference prosecutor I'm we're talking about a criminal situation there and this appeal process is really not criminal context is whether material should be in a library or not correct and maybe a library according to this law should be prosecutors not that's not my question about the questions about whether the material should be in a library at all that's really a civil contacts or prosecutor would be involved with that it's just the person making the challenge. Under this bill they would make that challenge to people who may or may not have legal training and so my question is whether you considered having the this challenge go to a court where you're gonna have a judge who was presumably elected by the people to make legal determinations like where the material is obscene or not the vest several questions from whether I considered that I considered everything in the bill and I'm standing behind what's in the bill and if someone wants to write write another bill that goes beyond backs off of this are welcome do that problem isn't my decision to what we are closer to or not that's what's in the bill I respect Senator Tucker. If you could wrap this up pretty quick I've got two more questions okay. Just to follow up on our at our end you know DO you can file the bill out hi I respect I totally respect that I guess my question to word it better is why did you select. School boards quorum courts and city boards rather than courts of law to have this appeal process go through. From hearing from constituents that's what we thought and I thought what's the best method again the goal is not to criminalize people I heard over and over you know don't criminalize it still criminalizes so we've done that and we take this to the point of elected officials there's no criminal penalty in here for that so when you ask why did I do that the reason is because librarians and others said let's not penalize people over this let's see if we can work together at the local level and resolve this to work together at the local level means we have a similar audit process that people hadn't they haven't listed what we're going to do what's in the detail of that they can figure that out if they want to say I like this book and hate this one go at. But the people have an appeal has not doesn't rest solely with a library or a library in it the rest with elected officials does that answer your question. But you you said you didn't want to criminalize librarians to my understanding is that librarians can be subject to criminal prosecution but this bill under obscenity law or. Okay this bill does not change obscenity law. My last question. Is about the final section of the bill. For parents have access. Hi to everything that a minor. Has checked out of all of the librarian and obviously you know if you have a small child there's no way around the parents knowing what they're checking out. But if you have a teenager I've been made aware of some specific instances in the state. Where teenager goes to check out materials related to child abuse. For drugs because their parents are abusing them and they're into drugs and the parents come in a lot of rain demand to know what their child. Is reading and I'm concerned about. We make clear in this committee last week from the come from the members that sometimes the state needs to protect children from their parents. So I'm just wondering if there are times when. A child. I need a little protection from their parent if the parent is abusing them and if you have a fifteen or sixteen year old is old enough to go to the library on their own. C. get their own library card and check out materials related to child abuse sexual abuse drugs were of the case might be if if there could be a a change to section six that provides for that you have heard that multiple times I've asked multiple times for specific evidence to that and when somebody comes up with specific evidence it says this child read these books and their child abuse them not punish them abuse them because they read a book please bring that to me and I'll consider at that time. All right thank you thank you Mr keep in mind members that you're going to the more you talk the more you're going to cut into some of the public's conversation so sent flowers you're recognized. Yes your name. Thank you. Senator Solomon. Okay so from what I'm understanding. Your intent appears to be. To take cues from. Of what. Our law. In section five sixty five one of the code says is harmful to minors. And. I guess you focus in on obscenity and. Content that is sexual in nature is that correct correct. Okay well. Would you agree other things are harmful to minors absolutely we do things smoking driving car seats alkaloid gun listed is immeasurable and guns guns. Tell me something. Do you know how. Libraries. Optane their inventory. I know they obtain it from donations they have other so many sources what about me specifically schools how they obtain the material hi I don't know specifically but I know there's a process where they obtain the material and it's reviewed and it is often they were they were give material that's already been Validated are examined by other professionals as being with those other professionals deem appropriate. And not appropriate. I don't know that they have a process for what goes in a elementary are kindergarten library versus a second grade I'm sure there are some standards that they've been trained in in school and college in their degrees it kind of set those general standards. We'll. I have some personal experience with. School libraries. And. For. I think my son was in the. Six or seventh grade. And. He came home with a book that was in the school's library. All give a boy a gun. In the school and many schools in Arkansas had this little reading program. We're kids we're supposed to. Read so many books. They had given a list for them to select from. And then. The ultimate. The goal was to have the child. Go to a computer. And test. Yes their knowledge on that book the area. I don't know if you have young children or if you're familiar with that or not I can't remember what the little program in Arkansas was called at the time but. My son wrote this book called. Give a boy a good. And. He was reading it as a ward would you get this from the library. And we're supposed to read these books to take a test. And So I notice he had to look for a few weeks he started. DO Micah. At ten. Littlewoods wrong. And so I picked up the book. And I read the book the cover of the book. I think it was about these kids over there in Jonesborough somewhere that it. Effective school with a gun or something. Bills like a diary. And on the front cover it said this book should be read it. Along with some professional. In a professional setting. And it should be Got a light coat that suggested to me someone should be there to counsel kids. What they were reading. So then I started reading the book. And it was a pretty dark book. So I went to the library. And I ask the librarian what is this why do you have this in this library. And she said well as flowers. These books are part of a. This program. And some. College border some of them still working on a P. H. D.'s or whatever. Are charged with the responsibility of identifying certain. Words that children are supposed to know. Like so many he's in there so many she's in there so many different. Words of whatever kind of work it's been a long time because I think he was in making the seventh grade ten. And I will. This book is not appropriate for children he's she's that will they have to read this book to. To take this test on the computer. That's what I want my son reading a book about get it done. With some kids that have been should not the school. And So she didn't know what to do so she sent me over to the principal's office up talk to wrestle personal they had never looked at that book. The personnel had never looked at the book. They had been sent the bill to be placed on the shelves in the library. For the purposes of this reading thing that Arkansas had instituted. So my point is. That one tore inside the library. I don't think all librarians. Get to choose what goes in there that happens appear the department of education. I learned from that. Whole experience that. I love the books we get here in Arkansas. There are books that. Come out of the valuations are selections done by the larger states Texas New York California. Eight more schools got more students. And so they have the selection. And then it just passes on down a little bit the southern states like Arkansas. So. Is amended. I don't know how. You. Get to the point. What do you want to. Turn back. In target. The local. Library. As opposed of trying to figure out. How is this still stocked in the library how are these books in the library I have a problem with. Being able to. Choose any book. But as a parent. I think it's incumbent for parents to watch what their children are reading. Not to yes banned books. What do I got it I want to know what is the reason. If you understand that. How it's affecting him. And then deal with it if I think it's in a negative kind of. Acted are hidden in a negative way. I just want you to respond to that did you know. That school libraries. Contained looks. That the department of a it recommends. Did you know that yes. Really so how come you're not targeting them. This bill I hope you'll support it now because this bill would allow. This bill would allow you to in that instance go the librarian and challenge that book. And then that would go through a process up to the school board where they would then make a determination what they wouldn't out what the bill which is not allowed now and it's in Pitsch. Page ten right now if you want if you want to the School Library and said I want to know what my child is checking out they are under no obligation legally to tell you what they're checking out. None and this bill would allow you when you went to the library in school or public and say I want to know what my child is checking out under this bill they have to tell you currently they do not they could you could say you know I want to see if the if my child reading a book on guns and it's a I'm not telling you were protected that's in the that's in the American library association bill of rights that you as a parent have no right to see what your child is checking out and that's in the policy of most of our schools and most of our public libraries this bill says you as a parent have every right to see what they're checking out. That was not the scenario that I posed to you. I think parents have a. I mean I don't I can't imagine a key it checking a book out of the library and and bring it home or have it available for parents to see what it is you know all. I guess I may I don't think I'm so we Q. you that I got the only had the only child that was honest enough to bring it looks home that's kind of bizarre. You ask your child what are you reading what's your home or what what's going on. I think you missed my point. Maybe you could re stated not try what about the Department of aids responsibility I thank the Department of it has been sued numerous times over what they are doing and not doing and I think there are many of us to just make mistakes this bill says if you appeal that. And tell us determined to be a violation of the law nobody's guilty nobody's penalize nothing happens so that if the department of education. We're making errors and include something to the library that violated the law was harmful to children are was absent obscene then when the librarian is informed that disco sorry that's not what we intended we will move the book remove the book they'll take whatever action is necessary because they don't have to take any action until as determined that it's a violation of the law. But senator if someone is of the it sent Stubblefield. Appointee is. Since the Department of eighty eight. Has the process. In place. That. Sends the books are decides which books to. To be included in school libraries. You understand what I'm saying process I was talking about with the P. H. D.'s students are selected in the books. And a lot of it is computerized is hit like word hits key words on a computer runnable through it and if it has that many the words that the Department seizes good for the curriculum that's the book they're going to include in the library inventory you understand what I'm saying do you understand that. Come follow me yes ma'am okay so what I'm saying is. If the Arkansas department of education. Is not really doing anything independently of its self for Arkansas students. But rather. Just adopting. What has been the process in allowed in these larger states. That have more money. I guess more at whatever they got. But there's nothing independent in the State of Arkansas department of any at. That would. C. grain. These books. That have been adopted for inclusion in libraries in large stakes. Don't you think you need to started it instead of trying to cut the legs off of the locals. First of all we're not trying to cut the legs off we've met with many people and this is the best bill we can come up with with this allows far Senator is an appeal process as good as our department of education is as good as those departments of education are in all the states United States as good as they are parents need an appeal process and this allows for that. Our. Would you consider. That may be. Adults. That in charge of putting. The inventory of books in the public school libraries. That maybe they ought to read on first. And then make a decision. Well this doesn't speak to that they can certainly return first if they choose but what makes more sense with you allows for parents to have an appeal process in this bill doesn't contemplate that and I don't intend to add that in there benefactor her for a lot of librarians who actually said we don't have time to read all the books and I agree with that so there is a there is a selection criteria people follow that selection criteria but there's no contemplation now of a parent being able to appeal that this allows for appeal up to an elected body. Thank you senator flowers are we need a motion limited by age two minutes Senator Clark. Art you're recognized. Senator Solomon of personal thank you for the two amendments of to the bill of I thought they made it a much better bill if Senator flowers is corrected a the and people of both the state of or making decisions about what's going on the line of local school library. Of. Your bill makes it easier for parents to challenge that is that correct correct. Of. Would you be against removing the exemption on the obscenity for museums of someone else brought the bill. I make sure I'm following that so you want you want removed the exemption from use Ms also I don't on this is what everyone did a lot has been made about that and you don't you would have a problem somebody else brought that bill generally correct and again we'd all like to see the bills first but if someone has people complain the constituents complaining and violent making those complaints and I think that would be reasonable to see the bill. I still. That. The help that is my one hang up I think about because I don't making everyone the same on obscenity I don't think is a problem with because a given obscenity to kids is or anyone of according to the courts is not a good thing of. But it seems that that's clouded the issue of the is it really necessary to have those to put that criminal part in the bill. It's already in the bill but we don't change that at all. I mean everybody that I understand the question. Whatever's it is determined by the court to be obscene that's already law no you I'm sorry let me reward the. With the challenges that you put in place for parents or others own books is it. Does the obscenity part of. I move removing the exemption for librarians in libraries does that really do a lot. Yes okay of. Again if the if that were to happen I don't know I'm I think in the history of this state it hasn't happened much however if it were to happen and when any time you give everyone a license to you're incentivizing people to do that so this bill dis incentivizes anyone to provide obscene material in the other part of the bill where we talk about harmful to children is that the part you're talking about Senator senator. I'm just about removing the one one hand you have challenges for. Of books that people don't think should be either available in a school library or public library which I think is two different things of but you have a challenge both places and then on the other hand you're removing the exemption for librarians nope my dad was a librarian I don't think he needed. Any protection of but the and I don't think it had a problem with removing the exemption however that seems to me that it clouds the other part of the bill and and that it it. With the argument that. Of that we're criminalizing blubber and Service for school personnel and I figure you're going now yeah this bill doesn't contemplate that the bill if a prosecutor thought the material was harmful to children in your local prosecutor would be responsible for making a taking that to the judge all this bill contemplates is going to your local the local library and library will go up to the quorum court in the corn Court would have a part to making that decision not whether they sent me to jail or as a penalty just what they want and what records what happened in the book but that would be a pure prosecutor to. Take that to the next step not this bill. Of. What was the impetus for this bill I mean we don't just wake up in the middle of the night what caused you to bring this here we yeah and and many libraries across the state we have seen parents going to school boards parents going to libraries and wanting a challenge process the some of them have been going ongoing for well over a year and the goal of this bill is to make sure that everybody follows the same process the death you may have different libraries that have a rule they have to have a process but that process berries shall we disqualified with the process looks like giving every library as much freedom as we possibly could as long as you follow those steps the same thing with schools we actually pull the school Process off of from the recommended process for the school board association of Arkansas they have posted they sent me a look what their process was we took that pop process in codified it and added to it that all everything is subject to open meetings so you can't meet behind closed doors library associations are already having open meetings and they make those thoughts in public. It would seem to me that the. Majority of libraries and I would say the vast majority of libraries we haven't had. it certainly not known problems or complaints this is not this is not targeting libraries is what I'm hearing you say but just that where there are problems that there's there's a means a better means of resolving the yeah thank you for that question because we're trying to set a process that everybody follows the process and that process doesn't have legal penalties in an other than those that are already. In law by obscenity surprised per process out there all the libraries to school in public hopefully this will give guidance to solve problems locally. Okay I'll go on record that. I don't I don't think that you're removing the exemption for libraries and librarians this problem philosophically I would like to build better if it was not in it thank you. Thank you. Following. Flowers you're recognized. My motion is issues that you have twenty three people signed up correct. I would move. That we recess the committee today. Come back Wednesday. It allows people who have signed up to speak. Otherwise to limit them to a minute. I don't know that you even going to get the twenty three. Allowed to come to the table is particularly if the members have questions of the witnesses. So I think my motion is it what I see a lady she can hit in the back but. Of the people have come here to speak. And. I'm on the side of allowing the public. To let their. Testimony to be heard. They're the ones that are either librarians are parents that have to deal with the issues that we put in these bills. So I don't see why that is such a big ask. Because I think this should have been a special order of business so that more time could be given to all those that came to the capitol today to speak on the bill. The motion is. To recess until Wednesday. And allow the witnesses. To testify nor do federal the motion that's debatable motion. Senator Ricky thank you Mr chairman I highly doubt that all these people want to take another day off work and I think if we have the opportunity to give them the time to speak even if it is a limited amount of time I think that they would be appreciative that okay any other members. Senator Clark Mr don't want to delay of center solos Billboard I think people want to come back that being said of and I know that we have other things on our schedule but I would like to hear the testimony of the people who have come if it's even if we recess and is later today. At the hearing aid. Senator Sturch. I make a substitute motion that we limit debate to one minute per Speaker. And proceed today all right that's not what we have is we have a motion to limit debate or one minute. Second. And discussion. It is a debatable. One double one means. It's not about. Is not available okay In discussion all those in favor say aye opposed. The motion carries you will have one minute to speak so the first one to come up. to speak for the bill is Gloria Martin. Your record if you will state your name you're recognized state you have one minute my name is Corey Martin with monster liberty Washington County I am here today asking your support for SB eighty one concerning libraries and obscene materials recently there's been a rising parents speak up against sexual content on invokes in their children's school and public libraries these objectionable oaks are available in school districts across the state including our own Arkansas schools and I gave everyone a packet here I want to just kind of briefly go over that with you this book is K. that book speaks of of annual sex oral sex handjob **** that book was challenged but yet and deemed appropriate a gender queer you can see the images there you've got your packet flamer I wanted everyone the exercise Lambert says or each boasting a load into this bottle if you don't come you have to drink it ha ha ha the next picture you see those two graphics of people having sex there there's prevent any account that you can see there the dying girl this book is also available in junior high schools and emotion County when the excerpts that the admiral I'm going to eat her **** and you can see on all boys aren't blue there's on the left common they're going to read that excerpt it's that you told me to take off my pajama pants which I did you then took off your shorts followed by your boxers then you stood there in front of me fully erect and said a state okay need boundaries support S. P. eighty one thank you for your testimony. Next is against robin Campbell. Good morning I'm robin Campbell from the north at a public library I yield my time to Adam Webb. Question. Mr Webb. Thank you for yielding your time to me I was going to spend some time thinking Senator Solomon for trying to meet us in the middle on this bill since I only have two minutes I'm gonna try to run as fast as I can you heard from one of the opponents saying these exerts on the books I will point to Page eight line fifteen and sixteen exerts are not the bar for this bill the book should be reviewed in their entirety and shall not have selected portions taken out of context that is the language in the bill as it is now so if you would like to you can check out any of those books to your local public library redoing your entire to make the decision for yourself what do you think they're appropriate for children not at this bill acknowledges the taking exerted of context is not the constitutional standard for whether a book is protected speech or not we don't do things arbitrarily as libraries we follow what the law says in the constitution demands of us there was a point made earlier about librarians refusing to tell parents what their kids have at it's the law I can't tell a parent with their kid has checked out Class C. misdemeanor under Arkansas Code currently so that that's not something that libraries are deciding not to do it's the law. I'll give a quote from another Supreme Court case talk about spring court cases a bit if there is any fixed are in our constitutional constellation it's that no official high or petty shall prescribe what is orthodox in matters of opinion that is a quote that's been used over and over again in regards to first amendment cases and I hope it's one that you will stand by today we can't make arbitrary decisions on what is constitutionally protected speech. That has to be determined by a court that it's not constitutionally protected at your time is running out I thank you and I will turn over this bill thank you thank you for your testimony Senator Clark if questions yes of. You were who you represent I thank you I was up by represent advocates for all Arkansas libraries in my day job on the garland county library director. Of the. Do the two amendments fix most of your objections yes as far as not having the arrested for doing my job and doing what I know to be constitutional yes the amendments help but there are some issues as far as separation of powers and and some constitutional issues still on the bill what is your biggest objection since we have little time what is your biggest objection and there's been no fiscal impact statement on how much these challenges are going to cost our cities and counties there's no stipulation in the bill that a person has to have standing to challenge books so you could have the folks who've who've been dealing with this up in Jonesborough filing challenges in every city and county in the state and throwing a monkey wrench in everybody's works and I I don't know if anybody knows how much time and effort we're going to do a review of a hundred books two hundred Bucks however many they want to challenge but there's no cap on that in the bill as well. Thank you thank you thank you for. Your **** to here to speak for. Bills one minute Mr Cox's share I have nothing. Okay then the witness we have Ashley Cooksey speak against the bill. We have a passion actually for a two year. Okay the next we doctor Aaron shall. Okay okay gesture. Speaking for the bill. Thank you so much for allowing me to speak today. I'm a mother and a grandmother and I'm a nurse. Some friends of mine and I did a survey and we talk to some of the librarians throughout the state. And I chose Arkansas. Yes five simple questions. American library bill of rights posted for the public to view disallow approve reference a late a LA in the library policy. It It here to implement the annual a policy that allows minors access to all materials and adults are entitled to including and. Should have. The laws ensure. Bills children are checking out the bottom one. The answers about we can't answer. I asked a group and doesn't have a parent with an. Anything and the answer was always yes. How much is involved. What matters are the children's emotional and mental health. The child subject to. That bad. Now. Thank. Child thank you for your testimony you're welcome thank you. Okay we have a alley Tomlinson. Speak for against the bill. Hi. Hello members of committee alley Tomlinson here as a citizen today I just wanna let you know how the public library help me become a mother when I was sixteen years old I became pregnant and by someone who had been preying upon my loan ability since I was fourteen years old this is a grown up I came from a house that had food insecurities abuse neglect much like much of my relationship with this grown up we continue to be that time I was nineteen I had another child with his individual I turned to my library you to teach me how to become a mother I was not living in an echo chamber anymore once I have access to materials that could teach me how to allow my children to have boundaries out have privacy my son has a disability and I was able to teach them how to become settled and not a rope at every stage of his life the public library and my daughter's the public library has been here to help me be the matter that my children need me to be now this is creating and our state is turning into a game of Jenga if we take that piece out of the bottom and put it on the top and made for some but it is not stable for us here at the bottom and I ask you to say no to this bill because we need stability issue thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Okay we have a mouth full though. Could there Thank you for the bill. Yes. I'm good my name is my father into this my if my myself already. I am originally from Chile. The I have a daughter I have a grandson. And I'm sure you're gonna have a lot testimony about books experiences with school and libraries I just want to give you my testimony has the big team of companies in my country when I was ten years all or do you experience in today here in United state all this issues of indoctrination sexual indoctrination to children on autism it subject I went to already law many years ago and I us to this committee to to pass this bill you need to think about the consequences I lived. And I'm talking to you from my money for what I experienced this issue is. If this issue would it agenda it It trying agenda except except it's a tool from the Communist Party is not similar more than that. I'm Gates. Then and I was. Whatever. I was. To me it makes me. With this issue. The night any type of service all right. Now in a child. All too much to do to conduct an in my child that is strong okay so I want to you please pass the bill thank you for your testimony you gonna make amendment letter some issues you right now do it thank you. I was. Thank you thank you. Okay we have Haley Prentice speak against the bill. Hello hello it's. Hello my name is Haley Prentice I'm a resident and taxpayer of the state of Arkansas and a constituent of Senate agree on more and I'm here to propose SP eighty one. Libraries should not be forced by a certain pressure groups to. To ban certain material because of of of reasons out or of speaking with the best. And I are why don't have a vote the. keeping **** out of the hands of children which is odd that's a great thing. Of some of the The reasoning behind this. Is out of wine and then necessary. And I'll I'll write this taking taking certain books out of context to use as a political tool is also wrong so I urge you to examiner cells and reconsider if your baby voting for this bill and we consider and vote against it thank thank you for your testimony. Of. Courtney Roland. Your speed for the bill. My name is my name is Courtney rolled in I'm from cabinet I have two kids and have a public schools. First of all librarians should never have been exempt exempt from obscenity laws in the first place because they should never be anywhere near crossing that line we should not have to worry about if our kids are going to school and being able to check out books that are inappropriate and I get I gave you two handouts that had some of the books one is the handmaid's tale was the one without the title and it is available to my son who is fourteen right now so. and according to the county library my daughter who will turn eleven in June can walk in there and check out any book in that library that she wants and they will not stop her. Common sense tells us that we want our books to be educational but in this book is gay and unless you're wanting to educate your child on how to have a boy on board six or girl on girl sex it has no educational value because that it has a diagram telling you exactly how to do it and I have it for you I will save us all the embarrassment of reading it though the question or the opposition wants to say we're trying to censor but really they are fighting to keep sexually explicit material available to all of our kids thank you for your testimony. Are we able twenty Morgan speak against the bill. Greetings my name is Julia Morgan I'm a librarian at carver stadium where a court of white students are currently reading at grade level never mind the fact that the same students that have not had a normal school year since March of twenty twenty. These students have experienced a school closure within the last nine months yes they are expected to meet the needs to meet the standards of what is that the state will be getting up at the end of this year people of my race once punish and the words learning to read and of the sending of a grandmother who never graduated from high school because she grew up during a time when she had the tools learning working to help support her family I have the privilege of sharing the lead any importance of reading the case of five students day I do not take this opportunity lightly. Do not take this opportunity for granted. So make sure that my students see themselves in the books our library when I was their age I do see myself in books. Work my G. teachers change that because that for me. She added my Angelou's I know why the caged bird sings is empowered me and made me understand the importance of representation of African American library and I understand the importance of literacy and technology instead of current legislative worrying about certified libraries intentionally placing material they they have a student. Any effort in place to provide the same stillness. The schools are the communities we have a way of allowing the reader to escape reality and explore places and things are much more interested when your time is up okay thank you for your testimony. Our next we have of speaking for twenty. Road. Thank you. The ex service that were provided today by both me and other people are not out of context we only have so much time we can't bring the whole book in here to read all of them but the fact that the excerpts that were presented to you are quite graphic and definitely fall within the twenty ten Arkansas code title five six eight three zero two you can read it for yourself all of these are very graphic and they have nothing to do with reproduction the librarian is the tip of the spear four and the library for distribution so it makes sense that there is some accountability to the individual and the library itself and the people that run not library in order to have some oversight from the parents we don't have oversight at the board of education we don't know about this material until our child brings it home so to reverse engineer that accountability it makes sense to final that back through the library to make them accountable if the material has been proven to be pornographic and only then so I am very much in support of this bill I appreciate to Senator Solomon for bring in it the subject up thank you thank you Mr rose what testimony March pick against of Britney Brooks. good morning I'm checking against I'm here representing myself as a parent and a school library media specialist I am then the special supplies Katz Mr Marcone it is okay for I've been educated for twenty years when I first heard about this bill it broke my heart and made me feel like I could not serve the families at my school we have a very diverse population Pulaski heights we have students who come from every background every religion we have students with two moms two dads we have students with no mom's note as we serve you homes and we have kids from pretty much every background I'm going to share personal stories I hope I get to finish it and I ask my daughter if I could read read this today today I wrote a book called speak which is one of the books is on a list that is going around schools the reason I brought this is because many of you can't imagine a child like the young lady in this book she's a victim of rape and because of that she cannot speak. she's fourteen years old my own child was a victim of sexual assault in a public school so. She has a great whole life she has parents who can talk to her and provide her with the resources that she needs every child does not have that but every child does have a library with books they could write a story that might help them come to the dalt and get help. Thank thank you for your testimony I'll take any questions you might have about libraries and public schools if you have any. thank you thank you. John McGraw speaking yes. Thank you for give me a minute I've been hi my name's John McGraw I am here representing evidence for all Arkansas libraries my day job I am at the Faulkner County library I've been in leverage thirty years and I hope you do not make history here I hope you turn this bill down because there's a huge constitutional hole in this the reason there are limits for the initial review committee to not take things out of context and to look at the things as a whole is because that is written down and island trees decision from nineteen eighty two that is written down in a prison verses Arkansas where we said you could talk about evolution because of a sectarian point that that felt that that was and biblical if you need seven votes on the quorum court to get rid of a biography Charles start when there's nothing in this bill to stop that there are there are things in the there are books have limits their covers children have limits their parents and libraries have limits and that's the first amendment and that's the constitution United States and constitution of Arkansas over and over again we tried this we did this lessons in two thousand three with Cedarville where they want to put parental permission slip on Harry potter that was determined to be an over reach the parental permission slip. This is not this is not less than a parental permission slip this is not going to fly with the courts and Cedarville Arkansas is not full of wizards and witches. Our Mr. Your term is up missed mid roll. Thank you for your testimony Senator Clark if questions I do of you said the. Limits for different things limits for children or their parents yes I think we can agree on that the and again Sir will operate and want to keep libraries as open as possible we're coming back to school libraries. Of. Should. The policy be the everything that's available so is available to kids I do not know what is available to kill children but I feel like the libraries in the schools and the school board should make those policies I don't know that there's a one size fits all for all schools in Arkansas but I would trust that that goes through first a review committee of librarians and licensed teachers and goes to the school board I'm concerned about you sending this to every municipal every county governing body were you now have executive or the legislative branches of counties and cities acting in a judicial back right back to schools yes I believe the appeal for the school goes to the school board yes okay so of that's the but my question was do you think that. That anything that's available to be available to kids I do I do not know I do not know what we would we be censoring. If we kept a book out of a school library. I I can't speak to that I can say that the school board and its appeal process should have the same requirements as the initial review committee there's not be taking things out of context to look in the the Arkansas all let me ask you this of people parents in disagreement because again public school library I mean public library. My kids are going unless I take all right could school libraries a whole different matter they're at school. Libraries there meant for their use. The. Of. What option would if. If the idea is that. We can't limit what can be seen. Do parents have a choice other than school choice I do I don't know if that's a would you support that I don't know that that is is a a those are the only limits and everything or nothing I think that you should have because protections that the school board appeal level the you haven't The introductory level okay but this bill does that does not no it does not it says the the initial review committees both at the school level and in the public libraries the initial review committee will not take things out of context take isolated passages and nor will it actually persecute view points it doesn't agree with I mean that's that's okay that's the real whole here is if you cannot constitutionally but the law is books on the basis of opposing a viewpoint that but this is telling given an Avenue for tell decisions we made the law says that you can't kill anybody yes yes people do yes so so you're saying that that the protection is what the law says that before the the decision has been made this way and so then we have to believe the decision was just made that way and so there should be no challenge I'm saying it right now the school board or the quorum court for the county judge whoever makes the appeal decision has no criteria when there are clearly stated constitutional criteria for the island trees decision from there was it does it intend to do this in two thousand and Wichita falls Texas where they said if you can get three hundred people sign petitions take out Harry potter from the library we'll take Kerry potter out three hundred people isn't reasonable ovaries three other people not determined is all of Wichita falls gets to read his or something this bill by petition no but I'm saying that the Wichita falls level of three hundred people signing a petition was an overreach three hundred people in Wichita falls do not get to there's nothing to stop anybody here from some of your sexuality my entire collection that's two hundred thousand items so you're speaking for the judiciary that an appeal to one's elected officials I was elected by the people who. Would be unconstitutional I'm saying that that that it looked it looked funny to have the legislative branch acting in a judicial role where there's no standards we were there clearly laid out constitutional standards for assessing these things it would looks funny for the for the legislature which is the people's money to for the people to decide to take it to the people that that looks funny well the the county judge appoints my core my smile every board members and the quorum court ratifies them because these these every board has a statutory obligation to be in charge of what libraries add and remove from the collections went up Senate to lab reports what criteria does the county judge held over making the appointments to the library board you said they had no criteria so I haven't I don't know that there is there is. Or is with that be correct I do not know that there are criteria for live reports the county judge of somebody and the quorum court ratifies in the print out art Mr grow your time is up any other questions members. Thank you to. John Mister John Richey. Thank you against this is James Richey I'm sorry I'm a librarian in the State of Arkansas librarians value and uphold emotional freedom the freedom to read and the freedom of access to information and as such public libraries contain a variety of materials for everyone some of that information and materials can be viewed as controversial these materials do not equal obscene materials ultimately it is up to the individuals parents and families to decide what their children should or should not read if there is an issue there is a process for brick consideration for that material which in turn is handled by the library boards appointed by the county judge. Please reconsider this bill allow librarians to do their job without the threat of incarceration thank you. Thanks for your testimony Jessica the Disney. The king against. My name is Jessica descent I've spent many years working with partial as used youth in Arkansas and if not for how serious this issue is at hand I would find it ironic to be speaking out against censorship with senator McCain president all libraries in Arkansas are currently required to have policies in place to handle challenge material have a school board approves selection and book removal according to the Arkansas Public School Library Bedia technology at title since chapter twenty five also is currently read this bill has no exception it and allowing for parents or parental consent working with youth in Arkansas showed me the libraries are safe place to learn about oneself to be enabled to better yourself and to escape to a home away from home free of judgment and abuse. SP eighty one seats to make criminals out of our most important members of our community library and librarians and teachers based on the whims of political parties and organizations as Americans we have a constitutional right to read and view what we wish I ask that any senator on this committee Committee please reconsider standing with our community and help ensure that our use continues to have access to the full breadth of our library system thank you for your testimony. Mr Nathan. You. You're recognized for one minute. Thank you my name's Nathan hall I'm a board member of the friends the curling County library friends groups exist to support libraries that's why we're there we sometimes sell use materials on behalf of those libraries to give them extra funding. By this life feel like I am also being attacked we don't have time to review every single piece of material that comes into our organization my background is I'm the son of a southern Baptist minister I also see it in your in opposition to this bill. These policies that already exist to allow people to challenge books you can ask your kids what they're reading to find out what they're reading schools have to publish their obscene materials policies to me this is simply government overreach. Thank you. I thank you for your testimony. She missed definitions Mr you have a question DO art go ahead Senator Clark. You said the this bill would simply be government overreach is it government overreach for. The local school library. To decide what my kids will see. The not so you and without me being able to object. There are ways for people to object to what's in the school library already what's the point of adding more bureaucracy bureaucracy to it you can object books now even senator flowers reference that in her own statement earlier she objected to a book or kid was reading she went back to school about why do we need more laws are on the thank you mark next up is this Tiffany Sweeney. Thank you for allowing me to speak for the rest of the city yes I'm against from the cricket county jails for public library speeds librarian so um as a public library and we have a job to be a gate keeper of information information we're. We hold to the freedom of information so anyone has access to information we cannot put a judgment on the information or who accesses it in that regard is in regards to ages well so for that we have policies to stipulate the selection of materials and in our policy we also have that the such materials is the responsibility of the parent or care giver so that is one way that we can protect children or youth is the church their parents to come in and help them select materials one thing I also really see addressed is the agency of youth themselves that they often they've had been left out of this conversation tire early if they find a book or something books don't jump off the shelves and present themselves so I don't really see these kids that they pick up a book and they don't like what's inside they can close it the book will not chase after them and yell the words out item collection development for our library our distributors are public the publishers the publishers to publish the books they are by law not allowed to distribute or publish books that are seen by the government standards so. The time your term as of twenty any questions Senator Clark. Yes the heard your testimony to be very clearly that. You cannot. Keep anyone. From seeing anything including by age. So anything that might be in that public library. Is open for any child of any age yes Sir and that's what you think it should be. It is not my job to make a judgment on that it is a first amendment right for people to access information I don't think it's a first amendment right for my five year. There is no age limit on the first amendment there there is also one of the people testifying against the bill said that parents or the women. And which also been testified that that we have kids who have no parents of so the your test and then it's also been testified that currently you can't even tell a parent. Under the law it be a misdemeanor if you did what your kids are checking out. But and so then you want to tell me that there's no need for this bill. We have in our policy this section materials is the responsibility of the parent or guardian so if we have someone who does not trust their child enough to check out materials they do not deem appropriate then they have a simple solution just not allowing them to get a library card well thank you for teaching me how to parent. Are we are thank you for your testimony and we. You have a motion center us. I'm gonna motion we have we have burned some time any committee that could have had all the testimonies I make a motion for committee consideration are that that is a non debatable motion of. We have a motion for immediate consideration and second from Senator Hester. Any discussion on the motion. I have. Non debatable. We ask for discussion I just want to know how many more people were on the list here to testify will make you for this is non debatable motion that's been made and all in favor all in favor. All opposed. Okay the motion carries Senator Solomon. Which call for your bill. Thank you. These calls are to be heard an explanation of the bill. what wishes of the committee. Senator Tucker. We have a motion will this is not a we have a motion to pass we have a second. All those in favor. You might court. Thank you Mr I'll be I'll be brief. Nobody wants to see obscene material in the hands of children I think that's something the ninety nine point nine nine percent of the population can agree on. They're materials I think everybody will agree or obscene they should not be in the hands of children and there's material that everyone will agree is not obscene and that's okay to be in the hands of children there is an area in between and different people have different opinions about whether that's obscene or not so the question is. Who makes the decision for that middle area and what standards are they using Senator Tucker. Senator Solomon is or close for the bill yes Sir we're under vote we have a vote right now all those in favor say aye. All opposed no bill carries. Do pass pass do pass as amended. You are saying no other business. We're Jr.