Judiciary Committee - Senate

For. World wars Cormac. Well left. Okay churches quorum Margolis committee of the Senate Judiciary to order. First order of business is we're gonna let of senator Kaine are you ready. Thank you Teague you're recognized for that the two bills. What is. That's. Senate bill seven. So for time reasons Mr chairman senator king District twenty eight my recognized you're recognized thank you Mr Evans so we had our discussion about this bill before we took the break after the bill was passed out the Attorney General Association counties in municipally had some concerns about one part on page two about if this is able to be done and then the actual funds that there was a concern in the section to the B. section of one the at one of the languages was about from opiates settlements the socialistic counties municipally Attorney General raised questions about it all I did was referred to compensate them is re refer this back to committee took that out the debate from the discussion of the committee is still the same from the other day that passed out here both bills so now is it this is basically about just taking out the the second part which should make it more palatable and easier to pass interested concerns are. Many heard next clash of the bill any questions. Anyone from the audience wish to speak for against the bill. March saying none. Your clothes for your bill senator king I'm closest the motion or Senate bill number seven we have a motion. What motion do pass second. All in favor. I. All those opposed. Milkers king Senate bill eight thank you Mr chairman same thing on Senate bill eight I won't take up any more time it was just taken out some of the language to make it more probable debate from the thing is the the other day is still the same. Our committee you've heard. Senate bill eight any instruction. Senator Tucker. On page two. Subsection five their on line nine is made out I'm grateful that there's a causation. Clause in there I think that's the right way to approach it my question is I guess still. How do you may be asking you a question that would be for the prosecutor but how do you prove that a vaccination has caused death or serious physical injury to somebody well I think the better situation to give an example is from the prescription drug and we talked about produce farmer the oxy cotton how that went through a process they said was legal and fine we found out later that the if you go back to basically line four is if these companies knowingly hide conceal or omit otherwise withhold evidence documentation or information I think that's the key I mean if we don't know that yet we know that this bill like I said before the other committee you were here to hear the discussion you know put a four year sunset clause on this if if we go through the next four years and there's not anything that that comes up in is challenged only find out that the companies knowingly misled people much like in the oxycontin case where they knowingly misled people of you know this just provides an Avenue protection to the people that did take the vaccine that received and we find out later that it did cause harm I mean there's a lot of questions being raised now the use it or not and you know with vaccines and drugs the same way the oxy cotton we didn't know at the time that this was going to be something that didn't cause damage. And we found out later the. Get these drugs and everything does what they say and everything of and there's not any damage it can be proved as in the case with oxy cotton words clearly proved then. There's not an issue. All right thank you. I would go and I are not documented this whenever they came out with it in nineteen ninety five the FTA. Clearly stated that oxycontin was not addictive. Oxy code own. A. J. even when they even went so far as to go around and discipline doctors for not prescribing more of it as well because I know we've talked so that in turn out so well for to Saudi and any other questions. Anyone from the audience which speak for against the bill. You're recognized by Senator. Can you close yeah I'm close I just want to add the thing And I sent to Senator Tucker video we're represent us show the video of how the FDA which I'm not saying it in this case or not but it shows the nexus of how money can influence things where represent us did a video of like certain drug assessors of the FDA fifty seven percent of them left to go to work for big pharma. So we know that there is a situation where they're leaving to take jobs after they approve the drugs so this is about protecting citizens and if we look at the case of the prescription drug. Clearly could be done the vaccines and that people need protection and we need to hold executives mislead people kill people or harm the same way we do our country drug dealer a city. City street drug dealer. Are there any other questions from committee Senator Tucker you finished. Any other questions from committee. No one from the audience wish to speak for against. You closing fifteen. Carter would entertain a motion. What motion do pass second all those in favor say aye. All opposed. The Bill pass. Foreign minister I'm gonna senator rice if he would come and take care. So I can present Senate bill. For seventeen. The Amendment. Senator total if you will recognize your self thank you Mr chairman of the. Let me just say first of all I know a lot about the situation this for this this bill taking place but we have some of the people here that know all the specifics in the details about it and I drove the here for exactly what happened in. In detail so if they would come if you. Yeah I do have a we do have an amendment you'll bring them I want to what we're. Members you get The Amendment to Senate bill four seventeen if you. Bring to the table with you and if you're good. Your explained Amendment or the amendment just says any vehicle object I'm the. Contrivance weighing in excess of posted weight limit upon a public bridge shall be civil civilly liable for the recoverable damages under twenty seven sixty six five of forty. Members any questions on the amendment. The second part of that amendment also says the cost of the removal of the damaged truckers very. Motion from Senator Ricky to adopt the amendment that second. Senator W. a second I'll second okay I have a motion seconded up the amendment on this B. four seventeen oh ever I. Opposed amendment is adopted you're recognized to present for senate bill four seventy. Issue to. Thank you Mr chair my name's mark phone I am the former your county judge and this incident occurred while I was the county judge this one here today I have our attorney Mr Tatum Tom title here with this and the newly elected your county judge Jeff guilty as of January two thousand nineteen a tractor trailer based out of Bakersfield California came to the animal Arkansas to get a load of frozen chicken one leave the name of the driver took a wrong turn and travel down they'll be in road a gravel road and traveled approximately three and a half miles and came to the historic breach. This bridge was approximately a hundred years ago listed on the national historic registry and it was clearly marked with the load limits of a posting of three ton for ton in six done the loaded truck and trailer weight approximately forty tons. The driver disregard the signs and tried to cross the bridge collapsing the bridge both the truck and the bridge fell into the paging river the deal been breach was a main access point for the pay Jean wildlife management area approximately fifteen thousand acres owned by the Arkansas game and fish the bridge was also a favorite of locals for a backdrop for teachers for waiting announcements graduation pictures family pictures and so on the destruction of the day been bridge was beginning of about a three and a half year ordeal that we had to go through the insurance company was very difficult to deal with did not want to pay for the damages incurred the insurance company want to use a depreciation value on the truck welcoming on the bridge the depreciation value of for a bridge built a hundred years ago the bridge call thirty five hundred dollars and they were won't depreciate the that did not work was totally unacceptable the first offering we received in January of twenty twenty which is one year later after the bridge collapse was sixty one thousand one hundred sixty dollars. Then in February of twenty twenty received an offer of a hundred twenty three thousand dollars this also offer also contained a statement to Mr Tatum for him to tell the county judge to be reasonable that was also rejected at that time we inform the insurance company we retaining an outside law firm to represent people bill counties and we were preparing to go to court and the during this time what we repair preparing to go to court we went to mediation but still no conclusion came to the case finally in two thousand twenty two we got a court date set the Dardanelle district of yell county court for March of twenty three which should be right now would be we would be having court if we had to settle the insurance company might attempt to move the court out of yell county and into Little Rock but this also fail then the insurance company contacted a lawyer and I'm kind of reduce misspelled a bit for the benefit of time but the insurance company contact your lawyer when they say they couldn't get the court case yell county and they offered a million dollars to settle the case and we we settle that accepted that offer in the fall of twenty twenty two however three and a half years of this including having to hire an outside law firm and the need to go to court was totally uncalled for the company destroyed property owned by the people yell county they stole the people for out of travel and the people's access to public property. You can look at it however you will look at it but it was wrong then it's wrong now it will be here on the next time it happens to a county or municipality in state Arkansas. this needs to be corrected if if we can get that done thank you Sir. Thank you into the the S. what was the. The number of miles if it if the people had to go people have to go around because that bridge to ending on where the illegal about twelve miles as. Thank you Mr Tatum you have any thank president. I don't I don't have anything else to add but I'm I'm just here in case I have any questions or they have any questions about the proceedings. Mister chairman I have a question. What was the total legal cost. Turn turn your back to the yeah it's it's on us in the cost of what what was the total legal cost the sensually was the third of of one million ways three hundred thirty three thousand what matter fact the the the county just received a open bids today on on the on the project and the the low bid we got was seven hundred forty thousand so after we paid attorney's fees it's going to cost you a county additional probably hundred ten thousand to put back the bridge. And it will it will be any kind of bridge that people be taken photographs of many understand that just a utilitarian bridge now senator the the original bridge it was there was an old drive thru truss bridge I'm searcher someone else counties have some of those it was historic and as Mr Tatum said the the cost of replacing a replica bridge would have been you know astronomical so we're not looking for that we're looking for a one one eight one lane concrete steel structure with Beijing river so these people have access and also the sportsmen have access to the paging wildlife management area. In case I missed it the auditioning get it the. bridge besides before the eighteen Wheeler got out that far they'll realize they're going the wrong way it was clearly marked yes with the limit yes Sir yes Sir bridge yes any questions from the committee Senator Tucker you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair I totally appreciate we are doing here I just have a question by the way you're going about it I mean typically you recover damages against someone when they do something that legend and then you prove that their negligence was the cause of the damage and this goes about a little bit differently and section two of the bill. It allows you all to recover from someone who is convicted of a violation. So I'm just curious about that if you thought about setting it up for you instead of you know being able to recover from someone who's convicted of a violation just can you being able to recover because this will be a civil case where the part where the the burden of proof is preponderance of the evidence. Where. So I'm just curious why didn't create a private right like a civil court or right of action to say if you can prove that someone was negligent. By a preponderance you kind of set up a higher burden for yourself. Because. You see my point in order for someone to be convicted of a violation that they got to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt and this is you know you can come up with a bunch of examples where someone may not be convicted of a crime because it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt but you can have recovery for civil damages because all you have to prove. Was by a preponderance of the evidence so that's my question. Well I'm not directly again to to to your language. I mean I'm yeah what subsections so if you look at the bill on on page one. This amends section twenty seven dash sixty six dash five oh one of the code right correct and It creates. Some a new one some new language. For. A violation of this section. Here I'm just I'm just looking through this. If you live in okay I yeah I that's what I think we are up what we're essentially attempting to do. Is set a measure for the value of damages for these particular white limited bridges yeah I would urge we were trying to be very narrow in in where this applied but the problem is and and really quite frankly in in the in defense of the insurance companies a little bit of you know I release him now hi I've got a real issue is is how do you measure these damages and you know we were. You know our argument was essentially this is such a unique item and there's you know common law case case law on on well to to unique item then you calculate the damage is different and that's what we're are you right there are unit should be market value we were saying there's no market value and people don't buy and sell bridges you can't it's hard to set the market for bridges yes and and so this is what we're trying to get it to where if if you know of the bridges destroyed like this one was that it can be replaced in the community is not worse off than it was because of the active negligent act to someone else. Yes. Just a minute I've got don't counseling center Tuckerton and misstating it through recognized. If Mister Whitmore as somebody wants to chime in on with respect to this question of a mixed with or if you wish to ensure a mark Whitmore surjection Arkansas counties about fourteen years ago this is a total twenty seven is a much as a rules of the road. So this is a moving violation for exceeding the white women so this whole subchapters about exceeding the posted weight limit of the county have so in essence the violation they're talking about is not a criminal offense system per se. Civil liability for violating the posted weight limit and the part we're talking about today is just a damages so five seed the posted weight limit on the bridge I'm promise facially simply liable because I violate the post abatement AM what we're going to step further in this bill or saying the damages as replacement value and you do not take into account depreciation so this is like residence a speeding speeding this title twenty seven chapter fifty two this is white limits server violations not criminal offenses the civil violation right presiding at the jury instructions would be the. RT not just a bunch of sexy to the post right limit their civilly liable and then the damages would be replaced by. Okay I that's helpful because this whole sections not in the bill so it's hard to know exactly what what is it this section does without saying the whole thing. And so I understand that I guess my my only follow up question then is. You still have it as an element of your lawsuit that they have that there has to be a violation I guess what you're saying is there always would it would have been a violation of that section yes design a few years ago we changed the law to be a civil liability per se strictly ability if you violate the poster weight limits. Can this section if you make it to where it's unsafe for passage or total the bridge okay then the depreciation would be that so part of the. Sure restriction as to what case would be twenty determined that violate the poster weight limit they are liable okay then they typically stipulate that because this posted. Yes I'm good thank you. The question for the committee. Not saying any is anybody in the audience to speak for or against Senate bill four seventeen. Not saying more Senator Stubblefield your clothes for your bill. Is it come close with a promotion from second key. Second from Senator Tucker. Any other. Questions. The Committee if not I'll favor I. Opposed. Congratulations your bill passes Senate bill four seventy. Hi Senator Irvin here to present house bill fourteen seventy four. State your name and who you. What district you represent you're recognized thank you Mr chairman of the committee Senator Missy and district twenty four. So what this bill M. health bills fourteen seventy four does is that it just protects adds this to the criminal code but also protects the underground storage facilities as part of critical infrastructure and adds it to the criminal code. We're talking about carbon. Capture. Well we're talking about yes we we were able to in the previous bill define the ability for an underground storage facility so that it could be utilized for different types of gases and things like that so we've already passed that bill with this bill does is just to identify these underground storage facilities as critical infrastructure so that they're not destroyed in that we add that any type of violation against that or just trying to start with that would be critical infrastructure would follow the same critic I'm a criminal as above ground. Yes structures. What facility structures are. The Committee for much of the building questions. Yes you're correct if you look at page two we're just adding underground gas storage facility along with your natural gas company that'll take its carbon capture to it can't be as. Any any questions from committee. Anyone the audience wish to speak for against the bill. Sam Nunn Centerview close for you real time closed created at that. Are we have a more centralized to pass and circumcenter Tucker. You just question. All those in favor say aye All opposed. Gradualist Senator thank you members of the committee. Start senate. Hammer. Senate bill four oh six. Senator Hammer you're recognized thank you Mr this bill is one that we heard earlier and The vote was forty five and I'm back before the committee asking for the committee to consider To me a favorable vote on it. If you have an amended. This is for six four six four four or five or four or five has an amendment discussion on this coming. Four six. Motion to pass Senator to anyone the audience will speak for against. motion sent Tucker do pass second such McKee. In discussion. All the favor say aye. All opposed. The Bill pass thank you Mr members of the committee. Anyone else. In the room that has a bill. Senator Clark. I C. fourteen okay. Senator Clark you're recognized thank you Mr Senate bill. Which one are you present for twenty nine four twenty nine last the. What Lancaster will lead to come help present this bill. You within five to a record again I'm Clint Lancaster. May I proceed Mr you're recognized Senate bill board twenty nine deals with the handling viewing in possession of election related data what that means is this. When you have a electronic poll books which were required to have pursuant to federal law and Arkansas those poll books are connected to databases about voters that includes if that person has voted yet where they voted at. And it will also tell the person which primary ballot that that voter had requested. Approximately and well in Arkansas that information is portable and packed it is released on a regularly on a daily basis however this is the information that has been used across the United States and we believe to some degree in Arkansas to create ballot harvesting applications that go on smart devices. Or otherwise enable ballot harvesters to attain ballots from those people who otherwise would not have voted intimidate them or influence their vote in some way. It is particularly true in an absentee setting but also is not necessarily real regulated just to that it it also has to do with the I. see that my preferred candidate is losing therefore I'm going to go out and harass people who had voted in the democratic primary or that would independent to vote for my candidate or and it's a two way street really it's a three way street sometimes a four way street depending on how many parties were recognizing at the moment if the green party's on the ballot. Your question. Our committee your next bill any questions Senator Ricky. Thank you Mr chairman. So this would also prohibit candidates from requesting. list of voters who have and have not voted that is true it would prohibited for everybody it's only for ten I believe ten days before the early voting period until the votes are tabulated the I think that you call this your walk around information or something of that nature per call that maybe not maybe I make maybe just made that up all right that yes it would prohibit you from getting that information as well. Follows yes okay and you mention of ten days prior to the early voting period prior to early voting beginning yes of the the bill doesn't specify the early voting period. It just says prior to the election. I believe I believe so last it's early voting is considered an election absentee is considered an election election day is considered an election there so when you run these miss DCS yes S. machines you have a machine for or machines for early voting and then when you go from early voting to to election day those those machines are running a new election. And then when you have absentee ballots being canvassed on election day then that is also third in separate elections so it's intentionally broad to cover that but for simplicity of explanation ten days before early voting. Mr chairman yes why would we want to prohibit candidates from having lists of is voted in the last. And is there a possibility I mean if poll workers inadvertently see the information can I be charged. there should be. Reasons for different individuals in. County employees possibly to have this information or handle this information. And we're seeing of in maybe setting up a system where. Maybe it's just we're being a little bit too strict on who can see I understand I think I understand the intent behind your bill. I would hate to set up a system know where we're. Analyzing our county employees county Clerk for. Whether it's I mean I don't want. Inadvertent or not. This this data is important not only to candidates it's important that can please be able to handle this information in such a way that they can affect you know the outcome not affect the outcome that affect the successful transparent legal election. I hate to be putting too many. That you can put too many restrictions on yes Sir Mickey so I would call your attention to subsection B. one and it's a it's counterparts so is this doesn't apply to a county Clerk or deputy county Clerk your County Board of election commissioners or any employee of the County Board of election commissioners which would include your poll workers we're not we're not trying to to what what what is trying to say look if you need this data that's great but it's not believable and you can't go given away so I've seen in other states across the United States where they gave that data away I saw were they sold the idea is that this data is really important to the integrity of our elections to a free and fair election and so restricting it to people who are only running that election is what we're doing here. But employees of the county clerk's office are also. Important to that I'd like to see those that are possibly and I and I would say it's it's important. There are good reasons for people outside these offices to have the stat it's not it's not always for purposes of misuse of course I I think that at the bill proposes a deputy county Clerk which my understanding is every in fully of the county Clerk as a deputy of some nature unless I'm wrong about that. I don't know if this case. We we we do works in the room I believe. They're very vocal light. In a good. Your last County Clarkson. Do if somebody wants to speak for the county Clerk says. Or a can you question is is there deputy county our our deputy county Clerk are all county Clerk employees considered deputies yes. Contract you better you better come up and identify yourself I know now you're in trouble right. Thank you Mr. I feel densify yourself for the record your message thank you Mr chairman on the carcass of the slang county Clerk. Go ahead Senator but are all county Clerk employees consider to be deputy county clerks yes but we do use a mob contract labor also. For the purpose of elections usually only or for other purposes also for elections for elections and are those considered deputy county Clerk or do they have to go through a process to the no they're not considered if the cars at that time so how would we best. What would you have to do in order to give give them access to this information under this bill if this bill is passed. I do not believe that I could. I make them deputy county Clerk unless they were under the employment of this of the county. Would it be okay if I keep going sure would it would be possible to hire more. Under the Election Commission staff to handle a loader is that something that needs to be performed in the county office it would be it can I just give you an example okay with me we had we have a problem with one of our machines back near or not Your what year was that we had a problem with one of the machines and we had a call AS soon AS is manufactured machine to come in and work on it. No if this bill right here passes we would not we would not have that luxury of doing that. Because the innocent S. couldn't see the data or because the SMS conceded that. Okay. Anymore questions from committee. May I respond Mr to what the county Clerk says you're. I don't know why any SNS technician fixing a broken tabulator ballot marking device or a public would need the actual data however my understanding is the data sets on their servers on the SNS is service that doesn't even sit on Arkansas servers so I do think that that is problematic but I don't think that's problematic ten days before an election until the votes are tabulated that's and and the additionally under our criminal code. Any type of discrepancies like this are resolved in favor of the person who is committed the wrong in other words if you have a person charged under this and there's a question about whether their employer Cantacuzino or R. or is it employer contractor they're going to be considered an employee regardless of whether they're contractor or what the employee getting benefits and the reason for that is the term employee in this statute especially as it relates to the criminal bar is going to be broadly and liberally interpreted to protect that type of thing employee means someone doing work on behalf of these entities. Who says it's going to be broadly interpreted the Arkansas Supreme Court. Just with past rulings what the I Wong case history dating back to the eighteen hundreds okay. The US Supreme Court says the same thing as well. Anymore questions Senator T.. Third no cost savings or fiscal impact of this. None that we are aware of. In fact if that does anything it will save the county money by not having to respond to for your request for this type of information during the time period yeah. Are any anyone else in the audience would like to speak for against the bill. Fewell said. Identify yourself and who you're with. You're recognized. Thank you for awhile and I'm with the idea of Faulkner county election coordinator my concerns of this bill is that it doesn't actually pertain to just public data it also discusses tabulation of ballots including without limitation office a call an electronic information from any public electronic vote tabulating device voting machine or paper ballots so I believe that that would also prohibit us from being able to post results tapes. it would prohibit work of the poll workers workers are not considered employees of the county also many election coordinators are not employees of the county Clerk there actually employees of a county judge. In our county we have many times when we have to contact administrators of nursing homes to let them know that some of the absentee ballots were missing the identification paperwork that's required. Of so that that can be counted. State law allows the. Getty state law does allow boaters to carry their ballot for lack of ID so I'd. I think that this could be interpreted that we are not allowed to provide a list of voters to the nursing home administrators to let them know which people in their facilities need to have that photo ID brought in excuse me the affidavit. I have concerns about how this would affect poll watchers and their ability to a. Here what's going on in the. In the polling location. As well as candidates being allowed to view ballots during a recount I think this is very prohibited and would prevent poll workers and election coordinator should be able to do their duties. Would you like to respond to that yes Sir I can respond to that first election coordinators are employees of the County Board of election commissioners they are doing the the work of the CBC all instead of commissioners doing it themselves and they are working for the Election Commission during an election because the County Board of election commissioners under our statutes control all these aspects are discussing related to an election I would like to point out that this is a real election related data cannot be handled read possessed or viewed it does not say over heard it does not it doesn't Cooper it doesn't prohibit the things that that I think what the concern is been raised as additionally there is no reason that anybody should have a tabulation of votes prior to the County Board of election commissioners releasing those either after I believe early voting absentee or do prior to the closer at the close of the polls and then your tabulation runs until it's complete there's no reason why any electronic information from a vote tabulating device voting machine or a voter's ballot should really be released to anybody as far as securing absentee ballots if you call a nursing home the the I don't think nursing homes have to have that ID's actually if you're in a nursing home and that the fact that it came from a nursing home administrators one of our only waivers of voter ID as there was another aspect in it theoretical world there's no reason why we couldn't send a letter like we always have or as Senator Tucker is going to propose tomorrow I believe to text or call this voter and say there is a problem with your ballot please come to the County Board of election commission's office with your voter ID in care this that that doesn't have to say that's very different than saying dear miss Smith I see that you voted. In the Republican primary for the last ten years and that this year you send in an absentee ballot but there's a problem with it so I need you to come in and show me your ID I think that we can accomplish it it this is narrowly narrowly written J. accomplish a specific purpose and it does not prohibit the type of things that that work will concerned about that have been raised here. By can't remember this nice lady's name that. The election coordinators and partner County so you said that you do not have to have an ID to get going to a nursing home in a nursing home administrator there's a special and I'm going off my and she's a green so that I always like that that you yes a nursing home administrator can get absentee ballots and return them without having the voter ID requirements Mary spawned to provide that to if you're in a nursing home that's correct you do not have to have a photo ID but there is an affidavit that must be signed by the administrator and the minister to always provide that when they return the absentee ballots so sometimes you have to call and request for that to be right in to care about. Well when you pick up that affidavit when you when you click to the signature. Yes all right in inside the ballot envelope and the you don't open those envelopes and taster canvassing absentee ballots so you wouldn't know if that affidavit. I find that person's identity was in there and tell you Sir canvassing the absentee ballots. Just like if I provided that's in place of the photo ID and it's very limited in state law who can have that has to be provided. By a the administrator of long term care facility. So you don't know if that's in the envelope with the ballot paper work and tell you open that ballot. Envelope. If I can provide you a little further context and the way these work is you get a big Manila envelope in you can't open that Manila envelope until a certain time period which is very close to the election only then after you open that envelope do you see what the contents are and what's missing and what's not missing so typically how it works is that you your County Board we I when I was on the commission I oversaw that but I believe every county does it differently but they open the outer envelope and they say okay here's the voter statement here's the voter ID here's this here's this and if something's missing it gets flagged and in this case in a nursing home administrator you might say well there's no affidavit now it might be in the inner envelope because there's a second little white envelope in there that has the ballot. All mess these up more than anything else in an election they put sometimes they don't put their absentee ballot in the white envelope and seal it sometimes they put it in an envelope Manila envelope and put everything else in the white one it's a process of going through there but you wouldn't know that until you start canvassing those because it they have to remain sealed and in the possession of the Election Commission unless they given to the county Clerk for a specific purpose at a public meeting. I Mark. Any other questions. May I add one other comment sir um and then it does say that this time period is ending with the certification of the results of the election not when the results are first released by the Election Commission so if if you are not allowed to Release anything regarding the tabulation of ballots beginning ten days before an election or. And ending with the certification of results of the election then when are you allowed to return to pose as real results tapes. I don't I don't think the results tape is the election Mendoza results tape you have to post those under state law your preliminary results there's a specific statute that says how you do that this statute does not supersede or override that statute. I'm the same in the county Clerk for all against is. I haven't asked them on this one. Any other any other questions Senator McKee thank you Mr chairman are there any states outside of Arkansas the past this restrict the information this way not that I'm aware of. However I am aware that it's under consideration or is being lobbying in other states that I could expound on that by saying that this is the data they used in Georgia Pennsylvania Michigan and Wisconsin I have a you tube video or a guy took this very information in created a ballot harvesting application in the state of Wisconsin that he they used to target specific voters that they were going to vote on their profile live interactive data. There's never been a case here in Arkansas. There's never been a case that I can I would feel confident taking to a court and saying yes I this is the evidence that we have we believe it to be true but we also don't have the type of we're not a swing state so we don't have the same type of large scale activities in Arkansas as we do and others however I am a proponent of what I call the field of dreams methodology if you build it they will come and if you don't close this they will eventually come in exploited it's about protecting our elections before it happens then instead of waiting in being reactive. Why would so many county Clerk me again it's just going to create a lot of to work. For Kelly Clarkson. I don't think so I like I I think give me we I mean maybe they can speak to that Mister chair but if anything this would save them some work. anybody else in the audience wish to speak for against the bill. Welcome one. Recognize yourself who you're with. My name is Lindsay French with the association of Arkansas counties I had no plans to come up and and speak on this bill but I think there's been some assertions made that I would just fundamentally disagree with one being that this is a narrowly tailored bill I want to back up and reiterate what the Clerk said that people not covered under this would be poll workers who are under no circumstances employees of the county their contract labor there's never been a case that says they are employees of the county That I'm aware of also. your coordinators they cannot be employees of the Election Commission under Amendment fifty five of the constitution all employees of the county are employees of the county judge and was there employed by another elected official such as the county Clerk so if the coordinator is an employee of the county judge they would not have access to this data in addition to that you're candidates I understand what the sponsors trying to do here and I do see some value in that but I think the way data is defined in here and the people who are excluded from this are broader than what the intent is. And it would be a Class a misdemeanor or a class D. felony if someone negligently gave something to the wrong person. It's hard enough to get poll workers as is and I think that the right of a felony is not going to make it any easier to conduct elections. Central Kiev question thank you Mr chairman as we all know how. People get around laws ones with pass people find a way to. Is there any chance that this could lead to an increase the number all watchers and with this In order to record names of people who vote. And with that I mean is it just possible future problem that you've got a number of people signing up to to watch the process just for that purpose. I'm Doug might be better to speak to that. If I may Let me. I don't see the problem that we have right now dead dead I've been here and. Slang can we run a a good tight ship poll watchers of poll watchers can be a big asset to us so it you they're just another line of defense of making sure things is done correct. When you start putting in here Class sight misdemeanor and the skull and these poll workers there here about that they don't want to be subjected to any of that. When when you come up there and and you state your name you know it's a it's basically a my it is a matter of public record because you're on the voter rolls we give out list to different candidates you know that request them I will give them a list I do not see in any way shape form or fashion how this helps in elections across the state. Okay. Senator Clark you're recognized yes of. Is it wanting. The so. Part of what I heard no tell me for hurting correctly was. That you don't think poll workers are included here. Sir correct. Sh that's correct as they are not employees of the county so if they were name specifically. That would take care of one objection. That would take care of one objection to the of. Election coordinator you don't think that they're included here. Correct so if they were included. By name that would take care of an objection. And then the objections beyond the. I think there needs to be an exception for the state board of election commissioners if they were to come in and do an audit before certification I think they should specifically be allowed to and I think maybe take a look at that definition of data I think it's just a little over brought as written. I'm not saying that would satisfy all of the objections but that would satisfy those that you brought up. What will the number asking to the others of the reductions. Other than fundamental transparency I think that is probably something that we can't amend out of out of the bill. Fundamental transparency that people should have right to those records has it in for you okay including candidates like yourself. Okay so I like having access to those records I'm very whether to my campaign or somebody else's I'm very proactive I like to know who's voted who hadn't voted so we can call. Of also know that nothing happened in Arkansas the you guys do a great job that's true but we also want to swing state. And so we were targeted targeted like Wisconsin and Pennsylvania in Georgia or of. And so the things that this bill seeks to stop although it stops me. Of Georgian Pennsylvania what's confidence it coming either because I think they probably normally do a good job don't you think. Those other states I don't know if I would say that when you think third county clerks and election coordinators are trying to run for election sure sure yes I think so so so you think. That what happened in those states. They saw coming. I I was not prepared to talk about what happened in those states and I'm probably not as well educated as some other folks here all all I can speak to is how this works in Arkansas and these records being available to people currently in Arkansas and the unintended consequences that this bill would have okay well there's two things that one is the technical corrections. Which don't seem to be hard in the second is what you said was fundamental transparency that somehow I was a candidate have a right to know. Because then it's not just me as a candidate it's me as an organization it's may be. Those who are to go out and to. But up to an end in some of State's beyond the election to the to put election with that information and you think that it's important that information still be allowed to be out there. Correct not just to a candidate but to any our Kansans. I think that we would probably have a fundamental difference. Yes. You're recognized. Maybe you can elaborate on the potential harm. This information is public Sir Clark. What are the potential. What are the potential misuses of the search committee I think that's of. The Lancaster can probably answer those questions better than me because he's done a lot of studying no I just watched those states from far and watched what happened and the. I don't think it's what voters intend regardless of the result in a particular state it's not the way voters intend for the process for of and. In the long run I think it leads to corruption of elections and selected as one whose locker is like having the data I'm not sure I wouldn't be bring the bill but thought that. There I don't see why I have an absolute right to it. Of and I can see what happened in those states and the problems it because and I know that our constituents definitely want more secure elections. Sorry I would agree with that and I appreciate that answer I guess in asking to see you know what are the some of the potential problems Miller Mr Lancaster wants to address that but many other bills that we passed this session are designed to mitigate those weaknesses where it doesn't matter if you know who's voter who hasn't voted. so they're not gonna be receiving at absentee ballots are you know on on the I'm requested absentee ballots there's no ballot drop boxes so that they can just. Drop a hundred ballots in the time so if those if those weaknesses are are handled. I guess I'm just interested know some of the possible sure dangers I'll be glad to answer that Senator Ricky I'd also like to take a moment before I forget misprints said that the election coordinators in poll workers or employees of the county judge under Amendment fifty five section three is is except those persons employed by other elected officials of the county the election commissioners are elected officials of the council on the county payroll I was elected by the Republican county commission just like my chair was in the and so we are those officials the the dangers. Real quick though I don't believe the Election Commission hires anyone. We have proof who is hired but they're hired under the auspices of the county Clerk or the county judge is that correct. They're saying yes I don't know that they're obviously influencing my thought process is are going to have to think okay I know that it's it's a you know a distinction but anyway sure the the dangers so in Georgia and Pennsylvania they were targeted through mass social media campaigns with this information they said here's the information about who is not voted contact them and contact them in any way you want talking in any way that you think is appropriate and tell them that they have to vote for by okay and now if you had watched some of the rise during that time period and you've seen the woke mob and you've seen and tip the you know that these are people approaching those with hugs and and and suckers I mean these are some pretty bitter like you I know where you live you better vote right I will I can you know I will know because it Joe Biden doesn't win Georgia I'm coming for you and they said that in Michigan I received some of those calls. So yes that that is that is one hundred percent what it's about I I would point you also to the Carter Baker Commission report that was I believe it two thousand five report by former president Jimmy Carter and I think James Baker who was in the Reagan administration. The only bipartisan federal election report I have ever seen on page forty six they specifically point out the dangers that occur outside of the polling place if I was at a polling place and I was telling people you better vote rider I'm coming to your house somebody's probably calling the cops but when I have that information I can target those people. I mean why don't we just let the mafia control our elections because the people who scare those the most are going to influence the vote the idea here is our elections are so foundational and fundamental to our freedom that we should protect it just as much as we do our economy and our currency we keep all our our goal locked up in a really big Ford in Kentucky last I heard you can't just stroll up there and get that information same thing is true here. Quid and I appreciate that answer I've been trying to influence elections for the past twelve years now. And the majority of voters I run into are not easily intimidated. Right. You try and even ask him sometimes how you voted or how you plan on voting and People are not happy with that most cases there are a number of people out there who can be easily intimidated but I I don't see Arkansas voters that way I think this is I understand what you're trying to do. I guess if you'd be willing to make some of those changes of the county clerk's requested some adjustments I'd be open to looking at it right now and I don't know that I could before. Anyone else in the audience has anything to serve. I will say this. I don't think there's any question. Of since the nineteen. For nineteen two thousand twenty election for sale and all the evidence has been uncovered is there were there were election in. In priority I mean your election lack of integrity is over elections in Georgia Michigan Pennsylvania Arizona there's no question it's already been admitted to even by those who are perpetrated. So it can happen. And we may not be happening here now but it can happen this is one of the ways that it happened in those states. We we know that for a fact. A. Does anyone anyone else on the on a seventy. Any questions. Seeing none Sir Clark. Thank you Mr. The. The bill is designed to close of the information available. Of before election. Of. After observing what has happened in other states. The. Technical are questions that have been raised. Don't have answers to. The. What we do know. Is that. Additionally. When our forefathers Sturch elections. The only kind of ballot there was was a paper ballot. And I'm not. Glorifying paper ballot I'm just saying that you went and you voted. And there was no swaying of an election based on what you knew to be happening only you can only start one game that you don't know what the score is until it's over and you can't you can work as hard as you want to work but you don't know. This information out there. Allows those of us who attempt to sway until elections are direction and all of us that are involved try to do that allows us to information and even allows the media but taking this information if there's somebody there who wants the election to go certain way we know that by telling people that. Even though it's not true we found it not to be true in a couple recent presidential elections this is the way the election's going to go people who were gonna go vote in the last couple hours often don't go vote. And the a I think that losing that ability for myself. To use that information is very small compared to the fact that we I think it gives us more of a guarantee of an honest free election that nobody knows until the votes are counted what was happening there can't the what I'm just going to call and say Hey I need you to go vote you haven't voted yet as has been pointed out other people use much more implicit measures that's been documented. So. I think it's important bill I think it's a good bill and I would appreciate a good vote and moved up that up we approve this bill. Our. Senator Clark is closed. Sure entertain motions. Okay. I make a motion motion do pass twelve seconds to pass. Chair was second. All those favor say aye hi I. All opposed. Well Senator Clark K. thank you Mr thank you members of the committee. We're senate bill four thirty four thirty you're recognized president Senate bill four thirty and again I want to ask your permission to help Mister Lancaster help present the bill. Maddox is ma'am Mister chair. You're recognized thank you so this bill has to do with the recounts and and how we do recounts and ultimately do election contest our recount statue is in my opinion one of the more work with statues out there because it really doesn't do very much for a person who believes that there they've been agreed so this would change that quite a bit. It with a it would allow so right now under our statutes the only person who can bring a recount is either your County Board of election commissioners or the candidate but there's no way for people who believe that their votes have been stolen to to challenge that or even find out that information. The. The goal of this is to allow ten people who are qualified electors to bring a recount and now that can become very burdensome on a county if if we just let ten voters bring a recount so instead of making the county paper that we what we make the ten people pay for it in advance additionally the current the current methodology for the recount expenses is a percentage of the of how many votes like based off since that's not going to be workable for the county if we continue to have a recount and so. The. The idea here is that these ten people request a recount they would have to pay the poll workers at least twice a minimum wage to do the recount and they have to pay for that in advance and so that's one aspect of it for candidates who are requesting a recount the the financial component would remain the same the counties can't profit off these bills are off the recount so they must if they don't use all the money they have to pay it back to the persons who paid it. The other problem is is you don't have much of a chance to to discover fraud to discover what's going on or what happened so. This would give you that option it will require that the balance be hand counted if the you know you hear so much in it right now but we don't trust the machines that the machines only persons auditing machines are as the state board of election commissioners and I I don't know that many people trust them as well so that in this case the people can see your they can conduct their own type of audit by doing a recount. And then if there was fraud or there was a question about a ballot those persons to their attorney or the the person who did it could request that the County Board of election commissioners make a a ruling about that. I have a real life example that happened last year in the the general election instilling county there was an elderly man I think he was ninety something he he didn't or include is absent it includes voter ID with his absentee ballot the law says that when that happens the voter must bring it and the their idea in person to the Clark this guy didn't do that his wife came and so. There was of a some discussion about whether we should count the ballot or not I mean the guy was ninety four it was just one vote we owe a wheeze Election Commission decided not to count the ballot but theoretically if we hadn't in a recount I up someone discovered that they should be able to challenge that ballot in ABSSSI it should not have been counted because that person didn't comply with the law. This allows for that to happen and this would also force the County Board of election commissioners to to make a ruling on that issue. The This is a. Matt a significant part of election integrity for the people by allowing them to have the ability to see if their votes have been counted properly and that their vote had been stolen it has zero financial impact additional financial impact to the counting impacts the way it's drafted it would have a monetary increase for the county because the poll workers doing the recount would be paid more than they were paid to do the election. Additionally the that's one component then we move into an election contest which is our statute about how you challenge an election in court rather than delve off into that because it's kind of a bigger bill I will say you cannot bring an election contest unless you first brought a recount so no more of this I'm filing a lawsuit because I don't think the election was fair if you didn't pay for the recount and you didn't have a recount you don't have a case and you're not even going to be allowed to to be heard in court so this does add an additional thing by allowing the recount to act as a discovery device where you can determine what type of types of nefarious conduct either did or did not occur and it limits the ability for people to bring a frivolous lawsuits related to elections. So that's the recounted portion I could go into the election contest or if you would like to discuss it from there I will let you. Tell me how you like to proceed Mister chair. Did I understand you to say that. The recount would bring in more revenue. For those doing the recounting. Actually yes that is correct because if you did pass the citizen the ten citizen because they must pre pay for the cost of the recount and they must pay the poll workers twice the amount that they would get paid so the county is not only not losing money the county employees are poll workers are actually making more money I understand the concept that you're talking about but it is a extreme burden. To find those people in the rural areas that are willing to do that right now they're not doing it for the money. And while I am not against a recount when needed I just don't buy your delayed twice the money they're going to do it for the money but thank you for clarifying well I will say is Senator ice that that is the major complaint I've heard across the United States is that poll workers are not interested in working the polls because they can make more money at SCEI McDonald's hi I'm that may be some places not where I live thank you. We don't have any other committee members present. Or anyone from the audience which speak for against the bill. I know this is redundant but you court or if you're going recognize yourself yes Sir Clark allows Faulkner County election coordinator. And there's nothing in this bill that prohibits the citizen from requesting the citizen group from requesting a recount of every race on every balance of all proceedings so if that would happen that would make it extremely difficult to do a full recounts if you have the centers so I could see that our council would have to. In the center model which is extremely popular Faulkner County and we're back to voting precinct. dispersed active in B. twenty two primary election we had over four hundred ballot styles. All of those would have to be separated out and counted independently. on page two this takes away the County Board of election commissioners right to do their own recounts. I apologize for my nervousness. And. I am one of the few people in this room who has conducted a recount and it is extremely difficult to find people to come in to do the recount it is a very lengthy process and. And I know that was covered. On page five it states that you cannot account for more than twelve hours in a day. in the account that we conducted in Wagner counting on the last day we did recover twelve hours because we knew we could have it wrapped up so we stayed for I think they have to thirteen hours that day so that we can finish the recount without extending it to another date this would prohibit that. It also discusses that ballots can be challenged there's an undervotes. A lot of ballots have undervotes. It also says that if there is good faith belief that the elector was not qualified to vote in the election I don't know how you would know that ballots are secret there's no way to talk about it back to any person. The same issue a price regarding the absentee ballot application. Again all that paperwork is separated from the ballot you can't talk about it back to any individual. Or her absentee application. On page six it states that after the recount is complete but that's in commission has to certify the results within forty eight hours and that's before the deadline to certify to have to certify within forty eight hours of their account or do you certified by the deadline. Our. Any questions. Committee. Anyone else in order to speak. Senator Clark. Thank you Mr. The. The bill is simple. It gives citizens it takes ten. All the rights if they think that a. The election has not necessarily been counted correctly it gives them the ability of to ask for a recount which citizens currently don't have. And certainly we learned in our last presidential election that citizens had lots of questions about elections and that goes that was one election I can go to the elections before that and the questions came from the other side. Of and so. If there's anything that we need it is confidence of the voters in our system. Ten people probably not that hard to get. Ten people and paying the bill. It is very difficult to get. And. The wall it may happen. One time two times ten times. If people are that are going to pay the bill or finding out that the counter still coming out the same then this bill in a short period of time will do nothing except give people confidence that if they want a recount. And they're willing to pay for it they can have it I think it's extremely important bill and I would appreciate a good vote. I'll make a motion to pass the motion to pass Committee second. We don't have a quorum Senator Clark. The Bill pass. From second. Preciado. Mister chair and member of the committee. Of S. B. for thirty one. Sir Clark you want to do this without a quorum. the Mr we can wait we've we waited up till now so we can wait. Yeah we need it we need a quorum of the of the committee here. And we don't have it right now. Okay so you will be glad to bring back. I will be meeting again Wednesday then after afternoon Wednesday so. Anybody get anything else. Thank you Mr chair. Thank you number we're adjourned.