State Agencies & Govt'l Affairs- House

Sure order bills first up will be representative Gramlich. Is that Senate bill three seventy seven. That. Yep to the twenty one run first senate bill okay you would justify yourself to the committee committee SO you have someone stand table we make sure they identify themselves and you're recognized president Senate bill three. Seventy seven. Thank you chairman thank you committee my name is Zach granite state representative for district fifty. I'm John Burris. Committee my bill The Senate bill tries to rectify an imbalance of power and to protect democracy and the power of petitions what this will do is two things first thing we'll do is it will require paid petition blockers to have the same the same rules and regulations that apply to them that a regular paid petitioner will have first off this is not talking about people who are choosing to go out and do petitions for free or block to censor free this is only affecting people who are paid to block petitions what is a paid position blocker if John Burris here was trying to get signatures for some petition I could be paid to block people from getting and signatures trying to make people change their minds on something except a right now the paid petitioner has to work has to be a resident of the State of Arkansas has to disclose their address and has to pass a federal background or passive ready background checks were as I the petition blocker do not so I will go to him and know everything about him and give a call him by name and know where he lives et cetera and there's no way to know who I am or what I'm doing so that's the first piece the second piece this bill do is it will create a misdemeanor to Two destroyer alter petitions and it outlines a variety of other things but if hi say we're to pay this pay petitioner thousand dollars to destroy his signatures right now it's totally legal in the state of Arkansas so what we want to do is to make that a misdemeanor where if you were to change signatures array signatures intensely destroy accept money to do those things would be a misdemeanor. I will be happy to answer any questions any questions from committee members. Saying none. No one signed up to speak for against the bill represents you're recognized close we bill because for my bill and I appreciate a good vote. DO because with the bill represented more. Motion I have a motion do pass any discussion on the motion. Shane none all in favor say aye. All opposed say no congratulations your bill is passed well you into the table there if you want to go ahead and present House resolution. Ten sixty eight. Are you ready to present that today yes chairman five house resolution ten sixty eight first officiated one being here to see this resolution is really important to my colleague run road so what's happening right now and this is from Ryan someone to read this today I will be presenting the House resolution ten sixty and half of representive road ten sixty eight declares that the Arkansas house of representatives oppose any effort by the president bite in the United States Congress to increase the cost of tricare for life benefits for recipients of these benefits Essentially what's happening is we have veterans who came in with the understanding that their health care be paid for for life right now the federal government is at a tempting to make that and pay for healthcare that wasn't the that's not what they signed up for so we just wanna have a resolution condemning that action and to continue to lead our veterans have the health care agreement that they started out with. Any questions from committee members. Per se none no one signed up to speak for against the resolution. Representative million. I have a motion of a do pass representative Milligan any discussion on the motion. Say none all in favor say aye All opposed say no regulation House resolution is passed thank you committee thank you chair thank you for any possible. Representative long. Representative longer be presenting house bill sixteen forty eight is that correct yes Sir KP would justify yourselves Committee and then you're recognized to present your bill thank you Mr chairman one long district thirty nine. There's no no no no not in the office of this bill I was not aware until this past November that there was no requirement for a run off for general elections for state representative and state senator. bill are looked into it and found that currently via the representatives state senators and the constitutional officers are the only ones that are not covered by a run off of for general elections however they did find that the constitutional officers of he would require a a Constitutional Amendment to include them in this bill so we we just wanted to to basically bring available for you to have a required run off if there's no one gets a majority in the in the race which haven't this past November in Conway for example. And in a situation there were no one gets a majority of the I would go to run off four weeks later we come up with a four weeks based upon recommendations from us county Clerk stuff both with and so it would be what we do in the primaries currently. Possibly in room three three man race you could extend up with someone with thirty four percent the vote being elected being that sixty six percent of the people of the voted in that election basically voted against having this person as a representative or senator but This bill would fix that situation and I'll be happy to answer any questions. Any questions from committee members. Say none. No one signed up to speak for against the bill. Representative Lowey recognized close with the bill. A good vote. Representative long as close with the bill I have a motion represented more has a motion of the past any discussion on the motion. Saying none all in favor say aye All opposed say no regulation representative flown your bill is passed is that the one you had on today's agenda yes Sir thank you very much thank you. Representative ray recognized. Right I believe you're going to present house bill fifteen ninety five is that correct yes Sir okay you're recognized two of. Thank you presentation okay thank you Mr chairman of fifteen ninety five is a bill that was passed out of this committee last week it just simply alters the requirements for the annual registration on a political action committee once we get that bill out of committee I thought I thought given some more thought to what representative Meeks had asked me about what happens if packs just sort of go dormant is there any mechanism to get rid of them and so that's why re referred the bill back to committee approved amendment on it that just very simply says if a pack fails to register for an entire election cycle the B. two consecutive years that the Secretary of State shall declare it determinable the Secretary state will terminate the registration due to an activity and that's what the bill does. Questions from committee members. Saying no no one signed up to speak for against the bill representative right you're recognized because we bill I'm close for the bill thank you Committee representative ray is close with the bill I have a motion object macro has motion of do pass any discussion on the motion. Say none all in favor say aye. All opposed say no the ayes seven graduation bills passed. Thank you Mr chairman I believe other than the special orders that the only bill you have on today's agenda yes Sir okay. Do you want me to step aside or estate in the step is that. Representative bart in the room. Representative all. Representative McCollum you can run. You represent your bills. I believe first bill I have for you on the agenda Senate bill two seventy two is that correct is. You have an amendment. Thank you Mr chair thank you Committee hopefully you guys are doing this amendment that's Being passed out currently. It's okay I'll just go through the amendment you're recognized to present the amendment thank you Mr chairman most of the changes are Changes for shall to may. So a few of those you'll see on page three lines four through ten. The main purpose of that amendment had to do was concern that certain Committee certain counties would be targeted with this process of election integrity and so the thought was to take a look at making a random selection but like to go and adopted amendments that's the will of the committee. Representative McCollum has presented the amendment any questions from the committee. Okay none representing column you're recognized closing your amendment. And closed representing column is close with ma'am and I have a motion of do pass on the amendment motion do pass any discussion on the motion. Shane none all in favor say aye. All opposed say no the ayes have it did you not present your bill as amended thank you Mr chair this bill is brought to you by a number of your colleagues to to pardon election integrity working group and I'd like for individual dinner shows from State Board of Election Commission if you have any words on More or less the background on on may maybe even more and what we want to make the change and you know this will enable you to do the five steps into your representing recognized to make a presentation. The official structure for the state lection Commission this bill is the species bill designed to expand our ability to conduct a post election auditing and also to conduct proactive reviews of absentee ballots through the amendment we how are scaling that back we we were hoping to to use more resources it probably will be possible in the session so we're making the new process discretionary based on our ability to to conduct it that what it does it allows us to just look at documents that are public documents and review them for any indications of violations of election law and if there are violations that create the ability to review and investigate those violations at their identified so we will may have mandatory post election auditing of the primary currently are mandatory post election audits only the general and this agency will have discretionary proactive review of documents primarily absentee voting documents. Any questions from committee members for Mitchell's. Playing none all. That carrying you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair just a quick question so it uses a public document so if their view is discretionary what what is this bill allow for which is a city with respect to that little piece what is this bill allow for the you can't do under current law it allows for investigations to be conducted we're currently we couldn't do the investigation thank you. Other questions from committee members. Womack. You Mr I was just curious of in that amended language with the county was reviewed under this section that there's a can't be reviewed for four years where did that. Come from. Then and what was the reason for the four years is representative McCollum mentioned there was a concern incident and that there would be unfair targeting of counties in order to open UP get targeted every election so so the four years this is just a number that sounds reasonable they didn't. That's right there's no specific reason that's great okay thank you any further questions from committee members. Okay no no one signed up to speak for against the bill. Representative McCollum you're recognized close with your bill as amended thank you Mr chair thank you committee I know everyone here takes election integrity seriously and I think this bill is an important part towards. Create a more oversight more accountability in that process with that I would love a good vote. I have a motion I have a motion from represented to me backrower to do pass any discussion on the motion. Hey none all in favor say aye All opposed. Your bill is passed as amended. Page only bill yet on the agenda. I believe I have to others House Bill fifteen thirteen as well as house bill sixteen seventy four. And with fifteen thirteen I do have an amendment as well. We do have an amendment on fifteen thirteen yes Sir. Leding at the amendment now. Doing more. One or more. McCollum the members been handed out you're recognized to present your amendment also if you would have your guest attend the table to identify themselves to the committee absolutely so you have an amendment in front of you you're recognized the bill itself it's a bill that has already passed through this committee your call on the floor with a we went ahead and sent it back to you also we could discuss the idea of what this amendment entails and going to go ahead. Thank you chairman Tosh Alex Benton with the attorney general's office. Your. Yes ma'am you have any comments yes Sir I do recognized thank you very briefly what this amendment died with us would be to create a new Civil cause of action for the Attorney General based on the already existing criminal violations in the code at the prosecuting attorneys would bring so this would give a a collateral attack with a lower burden of proof. And without a subject your questions any questions from committee members. None because on the amendment you closed on the amendment. I have a motion. I have a motion of do pass on the amendment. All in favor say aye. All opposed say no. The amendment is passed representative government now recognized to present your bill as amended. Thank you members again I will pass this bill through committee we want to take an even more input I think it would be best if there's anything that at this point Alex in terms of the entirety of the bill and what the amendment would mean. Thank you representative really I'll keep that very brief I think general Griffin has a vested interest in an election integrity and and I think he's very much looking forward to being a partner with the secretary of state's office some of the state board of election commissioners to ensure that our elections are always safe and with that I'm subject to questions. The questions from committee members. Saying none. Representative McCollum you're recognized close with your bill as amended thank you all for your patience on this one we want to make sure if we're gonna make more moves towards election to entity that will check all the boxes so I appreciate a great vote at the proper time the plate because it was closed for the bill as amended I have a motion representative Richmond for do pass as amended any discussion on the motion. All in favor say aye All opposed say no regulation bill is passed as amended. Do you have another one yes Sir House Bill sixteen seventy four. The district. House Bill sixteen seventy four yes Sir do you have anybody you're going to join you at the end of the table sure do okay just divide themselves to the committee and they represent and then you're recognized present your bill thank Mister members of the committee run Ousley deputy Attorney General opinions Division. Okay you're recognized present your bill thank you Mr chair thank you Committee so. Since I've been involved in the legislature there there seems to be a lot of opportunity to. Define what we do with certain type of funds settlement funds specifically it's probably all either read headlines or talked individuals that have a lot of different opinions on this subject I really do appreciate the attorney general's office for taking a look at creating guidelines of what we do and the scenarios moving forward and with that if you want to have anything in terms of walking through the language specifically that gives us as a committee as a body more motivation that will have more certainty what to do in the center as we have these funds great thank you so just a general background for the bill the office of the Attorney General received settlement funds that results from successful litigation against people and businesses who violate Arkansas law of these funds are considered cash funds and because the office is the constitutional office is slightly different from that term as you may be familiar with it as it existed other agencies those are cash funds because they're held in commercial bank accounts managed by the office of the AG under current Arkansas law the statutes limit how those funds can be used and it also obligates the office of the AG to provide the General Assembly with quarterly reports about how those funds were obtained in the first place and then how they're used so why is the bill needed basically two reasons the first reason this this a very confusing codification about how these funds are supposed to be used and how that used to supposed to be reported the codification is found in title for which is that is Arkansas deceptive trade practices act so if you turn the page and turn the page and turn the page then you find this subsection of the DTP a that regulates the use not just of funds obtained from a DTP a lawsuit but any settlement funds that the AG obtains from any kind of of of one these lawsuits so it's one of these kind of the codifications that once you go down the rabbit hole you realize actually discovered is way more Then than it appears because of the codification the other problem is there's a little bit of a lack of clarity in the current rules as they're found in title for which there's essentially it's been a little bit of a patchwork quilt over the years as they've been amendments to this section and title for so what the bill it tries to do is give a common sense codification and pull this language directly out of title for and put it into title twenty five in this section the code that deals with the attorney general's powers so it's that same language it's moved over from four into five majority of this bill you'll see is just the strike through and it's moving that language from title for the title five and the second thing to try to do is make very clear that in title twenty five the same set of rules that you find there and title for govern the use of any settlement funds that the AG of teens and it also ensures that any settlement funds the AG of teams whether they're from the DPA the DPA or anything else are subject to the same kinds of transparency in reporting requirements that the DTP a funds themselves are covered by so we think it also increases transparency with that I'm happy to take any questions questions from committee members. J. none. The pitch McCollum. Well thank you committee I think you had a pretty good review of why this is necessary in terms of clarity and transparency. I'm closed. No one signed up to speak for against the bill represents McCollum is close with the bill represent the Scott. I have a motion passed. Okay I have a motion representative Scott do pass any discussion on the motion. Saying none all in favor say aye All opposed say no regulation bills passed representative Pilkington. Committee members representative bill conveyed presenting Senate bill two fifty three to fifty three. Representative you have someone against the table with if you just to have them identify themselves to the committee in New the representative you're recognized present your bill thank you Sir representive Aaron Pilkington District forty five the official selection commission you're recognized thank you I'll be quick about this and we have a lot on the agenda current law provides them County ballot at a central Catholic Haitian on tabulator of ballot which is defective or cannot be scanned must be remade based on the situation flowing of a twenty twenty primary and looking at the practice of other state staff bills there's modification to the section which can be improved and the remake of the balance the solution this is the primary innovations language is to require a unique number to be added to the original and duplicated ballot which permits a large a later linking of these two documents the language also address the storage if you pay ballots and clarifies that they are to be retained and stored in the same fashion as regular ballots there's no no opposition to this piece of legislation I think everyone's in agreement that this is just good policy doing something that we're already doing but paid it codified and making it clear for our election officials but that I would turn it over there's in the US you need at. The show Chevy comments not at this time because it's a question I got you okay any questions from committee members. Say none no one signed up to speak for against the bill representative okay you're recognized close with the bill I'll close right bill thank representative is close with these bill what's pleasure of the Committee to I have a motion. I have a motion represented Womack do pass. Any discussion on the motion. Saying none congratulations your bill is passed out I'm sorry all in favor say aye. Do that again yet the bigger all in favor say aye hi. We say no graduation that your bill is passed. No not yet. Committee members but I've got a Senate bill I'm going to present the Senate bill three ninety seven by sure take over just more. Do I have a motion to adjourn. Mister chair would you identify yourself for the Committee on record. A representative Dwight Tosh. in such I think I've got someone here from DHS. Maybe I don't get that I present bill collie Senate bill of three ninety seven this is to allow the administrative adjudication decision to be served electronically basically now when DHS denies it Medicaid or snap application or finds that a beneficiary to be ineligible the beneficiary has the right to appeal and receive a hearing current law however requires that the decision be narrowed in those hearings must be sent to the beneficiary on paper through the post office Senate bill that were presented today three ninety seven would allow DHS to send those decisions by email if the benefits should be the beneficiary consents to that so they have the option whether they want IT bye bye that will email or what they wanted to you know up in the envelope when they receive it by paper so any beneficiary who wants a paper decision will continue to receive one Laster Committee DHS process nearly twelve thousand eight hundred and seventy appeals and the paper and postage for mailing the required hearings notices letters and vitals agent cost more than a hundred thousand dollars allowing decision to be sent by email could save tens of thousand dollars of taxpayers money this bill only applies to DHS because the other state agencies that process large volumes of appeals already have exemptions to members electronically and with that I will take any questions. Are there any questions from committee. There's no one signed up in the audience to speak for or against the bill. Representative Tosh are you ready close for your bill I'm close with me it but I make a motion do pass I have a motion do pass by or representantes all in favor say aye. All opposed say no. Congratulations. Ask your bill thank you Sir roll call. His representative McClendon issue you I know shared a committee made or here go ahead have seating at the table. Representative would you of reminder committee which bill you're presenting today. What seventy seven Senate bill Senate bill two seven seven. Okay. Committee and serve if you would just invite yourself to the committee in you're recognized president Senate bill thank you thank you chairman thank you Committee my name is I represented many macalin in House District ten so I'm here today to present you with Senate bill two seven seven it amends the filing period for political parties in the law concerning political parties. As you know there is a lawsuit filed in twenty nineteen by the Libertarian Party over a law governing new political parties of the court said that the law was unconstitutional so this bill is necessary to re establish the filing period enter dress issues that the court brought forth this includes a new filing period dates for recognizing any party and giving them the opportunity to file so basically this bill is needed so that we have candidates for the election I need to pass to give candidates a defined a legal filing period and with that the only answer any questions. Thank you questions from committee members. We have one person signed up. To speak. Other than I don't know if you're speaking for against the bill but it's Michael Kopech. A proper now's that correctly. Senate bill two submission okay. Okay I just been informed he's not here in attendance so no questions from committee members of no one else signed up to speak for against the bill so representative you're recognized closure you bill thank you I am classified bill and ask for a good vote representative is close with the bill put that promotion representative for mac but do pass any discussion on the motion. Hey none all in favor say aye All opposed say no regulations your bill has passed thank you chairman thank you Committee. It is representative McKenzie still in off a in the in the run. Okay. Okay. Okay committee members I don't see representative we can do is go here his bill then move into the special special orders for today so we'll go ahead and move to special orders of flowers bill we're going to hear under special order is house bill seventeen twenty six by representative right. Committee members there is an amendment to this bill so staff will be passing out that amendment at this time. Did you read you're recognized to present your amendment. Thank you Mr chairman representative David Ray District sixty nine colleagues the amendment just corrects a drafting error where one of the sections of was miss number. Not appreciate a adopting the amendment questions from committee members. Sorry none. The representative Bragg you close with your amendment yes Sir I have a motion I have a motion of do pass on the amendment all in favor say aye All opposed say no regulation the amendment is passed now you present your bill as amended. Thank you Mr chairman before I explained bill I'd like to let my guest here introduced himself yes please to write Ousley deputy Attorney General in the opinion division at the AG's office. Okay representative thank you for being here so you're recognized to present your bill thank you represent ray asked me to give a little bit of background I myself to give the frame framework for remarks that I'll have interspersed representative race comments I I've been at the AG's office now for twelve total years of provided a hundred fifty different trainings around the state to state officials at all levels of state county city school governments are provided training on for your responses to government officials are provided training to interested citizens not how to make for your request and I. provided Seeley's two attorneys around the state on the fully on the primary editor of three additions of the four year handbook that the AG's office puts out in conjunction with the press association I've litigated for your cases in Pulaski County circuit court and before the Arkansas Supreme Court and I've written hundreds of four year opinions for now three attorneys general. All right Thank you for that ride so colleagues house bill seventeen twenty six obviously deals with the freedom of information act and before I walk through the mechanics of the bill I just want to state that this bill has broad support it's supported by governor Sarah Huckabee Sanders Attorney General Tim Griffin secretary of state John Thurston law enforcement are United in their support of this bill including the state police the sheriff's association and the chiefs of police as well as a host of other organizations that I'm sure will testify here to share their support. you know there's some things in our politics that it's sometimes difficult to have an honest conversation about. social security comes to mind Insolvent pension systems is another and then there's Korea. In almost every discussion of four yeah the debate is painted as a binary choice that there's government on one side and citizens on the other and you have to pick a side you're either with one against the other or vice versa. That is a false dilemma it is possible to have both a transparent government and one that isn't paralyzed by crippling inefficiencies. The way that I would encourage you to think about this issue it is like this. Nobody wants government to be a black box that's one extreme on this end of the continuum. On the other hand government can't always be a fishbowl. That's the other end of the continuum in between these two points on the continuum between the black box and the fish bowl there are literally a thousand different points along that continuum where for you laws can and do fall routinely. Four forty a isn't a single law that falls on a single point of that continuum. It's a series of things that sit at different parts of that continuum based on a variety of factors and considerations. Financial records for example how the taxpayer money is spent that always has always should and always will sit very close to the fish bowl into the continue on because there's a close connection oftentimes between money and corruption. Other records like employment evaluations and such fall much closer to the black box end of the continuum I think about the list of concealed carry permit holders that was disclosed that was Boyd and disclosed by journalist. And then this body after witnessing that reckless action decided to pass a law that put it close to the black box that exempted from FOIA. So as you hear people by as you hear the opponents testify against this bill and painted as good versus evil or heaven versus hell please keep that framework in mind and no the all of the different points on that continuing and that reasonable people can have disagreements about which particular point on the continue on each type of record should fall. I think everybody here supports transparency in government and we're proud to have a strong for a law at the same time as lawmakers we have to be responsive to issues that arise to transit develop and make adjustments to loss as necessary over time I can't I can't think of almost no law that is so sacrosanct that it doesn't need to be revisited over time to make necessary adjustments and improvements the fact is that many provisions of our FOIA laws have become liabilities for you is can be routinely abused weaponized and used as a retaliatory weapon of revenge and the sheer volume of requests and the culture of the luminous nature of many of those requests can easily grind agencies to a hall which prevents them performing from performing some of the most basic functions in serving the public. I recently talked to one school district to tell me that they recently received a for your request that totaled eight hundred thousand documents not eight hundred documents not eight thousand documents eight hundred thousand documents they estimated that it would take therefore yeah compliance officer nearly two years to comply with that request but that's not how the law works the law only gives you three days to comply and there are no exceptions to that. So. they would be violating the law for every single day beyond the three days they do not provide those eight hundred thousand documents. Last week I talked to one of our smaller state agencies where they told me about an employee that had to be let go a couple years ago and as a that simply as a matter of revenge almost every week since that employee was let go they submit a dozen or more for your requests not small minor request not request designed to elicit important information but large request a luminous request simply to paralyze and retaliate against their former co workers so you'll hear other examples like this from folks who have come to testify for the bill you'll hear more examples of for you being weaponized in a way that that doesn't just make life inconvenient for a handful of government bureaucrats because to be honest I could care less about that but that does it in a way that deprives citizens of our of a government that is focused on providing even basic services like public safety and fire protection. One of the things I described described do not. Serve the public interest blowing through millions of dollars of of taxpayer money on an army of for your compliance officers that all have to be paid between sixty and a hundred thousand dollars is not fiscally conservative. Many of these trends were impossible to foresee in nineteen sixty seven when for it was originally adopted. So this bill does seven things the changes contained in it balance the value of transparency with the need for government to be able to function efficiently and in the end I believe that the public will be one of the primary beneficiaries of these changes so I'm going to explain what each of the sections of the bill do and I'm gonna ask Mr Ousley to intersperse some of his comments with mine so as to be a little bit unconventional the first thing the bill does And section two is exempt records related to ongoing law enforcement investigations currently only undisclosed criminal investigations are exempted from FOIA this would expand that exemption to include ongoing investigations you know if videos of a pursuit or released as the law currently requires an investigation may be ineffective or even compromised publishing of a video may also risk a fair trial for the defendant or the subject of the investigation. And being able to derive delay the release of these records just for a period of time. Ensures that both sides get a fair trial a fair investigation and if necessary a trial. Currently law enforcement agencies have to divvy up their resources between investigating crimes. And answering for your request about them. Defense attorneys are skipping the usual court discovery process and using our broad foil laws in court cases instead. There's been a lot of discussion last couple years about backing the blue on one side and the funding the police on the other I will tell you our law enforcement DO have to divert precious resources from things that would otherwise go to public safety simply to comply with people who are fully and mountains of documents and dashcam footage in many cases simply to make a quick Buck on a blog. I should also note that this exemption doesn't just help law enforcement although it does it protect the innocent not every person who's investigated is guilty that's important to remember not every investigation leads to charges. And making sure that information subject to FOIA it making that information subject to FOIA undoubtedly puts a cloud of suspicion on innocent people in some instances and that having that exemption is in the best interest of the public. Give anything that right yeah just very briefly the. Part of what I hope to add to the comments here is to give you a thumbnail sketch of how other states thread the needle here between government transparency and government efficiency one of the first ones to consider the question of of where that balance ought to lie so you'll hear a variety of people come I'm sure and give and tell you what your policy perspective ought to be on that my my hope is to tell you how other policy makers have threaded that needle as well so you can you can be fully informed you make your own decision on this the majority of states have an exception that covers these kinds of ongoing undisclosed criminal investigations and I did I did some quick research for the states that are around us for example Texas has one just just like the language here Oklahoma has one Missouri has one and the Federal the federal for it which pre dates are for you by one year also has one so these kinds of exceptions our our standard among other states and you should you should be aware that. The second. The second thing the bill does And section three it adds an attorney client privilege into Fauria when a private citizen gets advice from an attorney that advice is protected but leaders in executive agencies can't do the same and so the critical questions that they asked their attorneys can be public within three days as you can imagine this makes a critical decision making communications arduous at best and impossible at worst. Not having attorney client privilege anywhere in our forty a. Has the potential to force the state to reveal their litigation strategy to the person bringing suit against them and that may or may not be in the public the the best interest of the public. Lawsuits are add adversarial by nature just like sports imagine how the unfair advantage that would be created if one teams could by football coach could access the playbook of the other teams coach prior to the game that's essentially what can happen in these instances so this change would allow employees to get the best possible legal advice which is again in the best interest of the public and getting better and more candid legal advice would also help prevent accidental behavior that's illegal which is also in the best interest of the public. Nearly every state that has a four year exempts attorney client communications and the very next one work product doctrine again Texas has an attorney client privilege and therefore you and work product doctrine which is this next one which will look at here momentarily Oklahoma has the same exemption Missouri has the same exemption Mississippi has the same exemption and sodas the federal FOIA and the idea here is to the point earlier about the false dichotomy between to help government or to help citizens in a representative democracy you yourself as a citizen so far as you have your citizen had on you can go to your attorney and have the sort of sacrosanct privilege where you have an attorney client relationship and the stuff you say to your attorney is between you and your attorney and then whenever you or your elected representatives go and now they have they represent you the majority of other jurisdictions have considered whether that elected representative ought to have the same kinds of privileges the majority vote to six jurisdictions had said yes in Arkansas we don't have that the text of the four year doesn't contain such a thing and there was an Arkansas Supreme Court case in the early two thousands that said part of the reason why we shouldn't have said the thing is that government attorneys the client of a government attorney is that people. That's Payton the false the rules of professional conduct that are published by the Arkansas Supreme Court in that were in effect at that time say they have a very careful detailed definition of who my client is as an attorney and the reason that's very important is because that's the person to whom I owe all of these obligations of candor of a fatality and that's to the person to map this fiduciary obligation and law students are trained on this kind of this and it's actually part of the bar exam so a government set of government client is not the the citizen the government the government lawyer is serving the citizen and the majority of people I've had the privilege to work with and in the government are outstanding lawyers who love public service and that's the reason why they're there instead of a tall building firm where they could make may perhaps a lot more money but they really enjoy what they're doing and enjoy the service and so they don't see what they're doing S. as keeping things from from the public they see themselves as serving their client under the normal rules of client lawyer relationship with most restrictions agree with. The next thing the bill does in also in section three as it adds a deliberate process exemption or privilege there's a number of states including taxes Ohio Alaska several others and the federal government that have an exception to for your for delivered a process and deliberative process is the basis for many of the exceptions that already exist in for you it's why the governor's office in the Attorney General office have a working papers exemption it's why personnel matters at a school board meeting can be discussed in executive privilege it's why employee evaluations are except under extreme circumstances not discloseable and frankly it's why. All of you as lawmakers have a legislative privilege imagine if every email that you sent to be L. are asking them to research this topic or that topic were subject to for you imagine if every iteration of every bill you've ever drafted not not just the finished product that you file that's public but every draft the changes the the iterations that it goes through will public. That would severely hamper an already difficult policy making process no business could possibly function if its decision making process were in a constant state of exposure now state action should absolutely be public nobody disagrees with that but the deliberate process leading to that action can't exist inside a fish bowl. And there's a because there's a chilling effect on the deliberate process there's a lack of candor ideas that maybe fall outside the Overton window part brought forward input into the discussion. people don't speak up and offer their input and so allowing for that deliberate process. Improves. The the decision making. It improves outcomes and who benefits from better outcomes and decision making in the public policy process it's the public that benefits from that. I would also point out that that all of the did the old the the the delivery process documents are still subject to subpoena the actions of government are still public and the the you know provide for citizen input you know if the delivery process for example results in a rule they're still gonna be notice and comment allowed in the you know the other side is going to tell you that this exemption will just lead to no documents and that's just not true the laboratory of democracy in our state in other states in the laboratory of history teaches us that even with the working papers exemption there's a lot of documents that are still going to be available that are covered by that are not covered by the for exemption. So Arkansas already has a type of. Delivered to process exception that was what was added to the four year and the nineteen eighties that's the working papers exception which each member of this committee enjoys along with the other constitutional officers on published working papers on public memoranda and unpublished correspondence are exempt from disclosure under the FOIA. That's a type of deliberate of process exception because the whole idea is that it's supposed to capture information it's pre decisional between decision makers at at a high level what this so so that's not a stranger to the four yet is is is my point there and you should know with respect to the this the the background of the deliberative process exception itself this is a part of the federal for you which I mentioned earlier predates us by about a year and it's got the well it well developed case law in the federal courts and might my suspicion is that if this bill were to pass and become law then if in a court construing these provisions would pull from that well developed body of case law in the federal courts to construe interpret this very language and say that there are two elements for this language in order for it to apply to a particular document so it's not going to be that this document shields just any record at all the elements of the federal courts have settled on is that the document must be pre decisional in nature so you can't you know create a document after the policy's been made and then try to apply this provision and also it must be opinion based it must express someone's opinion it can't be just data or fax so there is a limitation in this well developed body of case law in the federal courts that this language keys off of and I said again that some other states have this as well including Texas Oklahoma Missouri. Okay the next thing the bill does I believe this is the last thing in section three it exempts intellectual property and research created by universities and state agencies you know sometimes our universities generate proprietary information that has significant financial value including in some instances patentable technology this bill would exempt proprietary information from for yeah I believe there's some universities that have come here today they can share some some examples with you of that but there's studies done on herbicides seed variety soil and water quality things of that nature and if you are that people can currently request preliminary Fund published research results there Fauria and that creates several problems it gives an advantage to competitors to know which direction that research is going if you released partial results of research public may draw incorrect conclusions from that it would allow other they would allow other researchers to scoop projects and preempt their research that might limit other opportunities for successful promotion of our institutions and most importantly it could compromise intellectual property rights for newly developed or developing technology. And give anything to have them around okay I move on to the the fifth thing of seven I promise we're getting there section for the dress is the problem of uncompensated man hours in for your request this portion of the bill would ensure that modest FOR your request small for your requests are fulfilled free of charge to the request your but for Rick reimbursements with that but it would allow for it but not required but it would allow for reimbursements that are particularly voluminous those that take more than eight hours to comply so an employee's entire working day to compile they would be able to charge for reimbursement of those man hours the cost of that request would be for the hourly wage over eight hours of the lowest paid employee qualified to fulfill that request and this is particularly applaud a problem as I mentioned earlier in law enforcement state police for example have three full time employees whose only job is just to review requested dashcam and bodycam footage and make the necessary redactions and so some of these request particularly the very large voluminous ones or severe drain on precious resources that could be being diverted that could be going as they were intended to go to public safety. I do want to stress anything any sort of smaller modest request is still going to be covered free of charge under eight hours again this is to the public benefit because taxpayers currently get stuck with the tab when these ultra balloonists requests are filed. Shall the opponents of this bill are gonna say oh well this is why I pay taxes I pay my taxes so they should be this should be handled for free in fact the example that I saw in the newspaper the other day was they equated this to if you call the police and they show up at your house if they then handed you a bill to pay for that well no this is not like that but even if it was it would be an abuse on your part if you call your police department three times a day and asked him to respond to something at your house over and over just because you wanted to see him show up that's what's happening a lot of time you would be draining the that department of their resources. It's important remember that no no government agency exist primarily for the purpose of complying with for your request they all have a job to do the police keep us safe the highway department paves the roads schools educate children. These sorts of things are special uses and it is perfectly normal for government to charge a fee for a special use so take for example circuit court when you go to circuit court the court room the judges the the building's the and the personnel that's all paid for with your tax dollars if you file a lawsuit in circuit court you have to pay a filing fee that is a special use you go to a state park and you decide you want to stay for a week at the campground there's a fee for that that's considered a special use this is very this is a very normal thing in government. Twenty nine states allow their records custodians to charge for personnel time in the majority of those charge from the moment they start collect collecting the records as you see here today Arkansas does not allow any charge at all so by allowing a charge we get we move into the majority of the states and by fixing that charged the clock to begin at eight after eight hours in a minute it doesn't capture the prior eight hours but the clock within start at that time which is pretty lenient even among the states who do charge for personnel time twenty nine states. Okay the sixth of seven thing that this bill does in section five it addresses the problem of very difficult if not impossible for you to turn around times by adjusting the response time to ten days this change would put Arkansas in the relative middle of for your response times compared to other states if a for your request could not be processed within ten days the state would be required to give notice of why and we and those records will be produced. Why is this necessary because government workers routinely encounter situations where it is impossible to comply with the law we're situations where every employee working every available hour could not humanly possibly comply with the three day requirement. Consider the example I gave you earlier where eight hundred thousand documents were requested or think about how long it would take the health department to compile if you requested every record that it used the word COVID dating back to March of twenty twenty that would take a long time to compile the problem is that the law doesn't allow for any exception none whatsoever. And so for someone like me who believes in the rule of law it seems like it's a bad idea for at for us to have laws that are it literally impossible to abide by you have to remember for the people compiling for your requests they have to walk a tightrope because not only do they have to deliver that requested product within three days to the request They also can't disclose any information that is exempted and tripping up on either of those would create a violation and so all of those documents have to be reviewed to see if information needs to be redacted for some other reason and the law. Again this change will have a public benefit currently taxpayers have to pay for many attorneys whose only job is to comply with for your request and the shoes of millions of taxpayer dollars simply by extending the runway for response times agencies could accomplish the same goal using fewer resources and personnel and save taxpayers money. Probably about forty times over the last fifteen years I have and these different training side due to earlier I've had somebody a government official at some level raise their hand ask me about situations that representative register scribe what about a situation health those after I have a situation right now where we have a for your request and if I were to take every staff member off of what they're supposed to be doing and put them on responding to this for yeah. And we did that for three business days we still would not be able to meet the time frame what are we supposed to do. And my answer has always been the same your aunt the answer is you are forced to break the law. There is no exception in the four year right now if even if it is impossible physically to comply with the request so what I've said to people is you have to respond to the person in writing and explain the situation and if they're upset about it then they can sue you and then you can hope that the court it has mercy on you but the the reality there is if the judge did say well we're going to give your production schedule we're gonna extend the time frame for you to response that itself would be lawless. Because there is no provision in the four year that allows the judge to do that this at a reasonable time frame to poor disclosure so what I want the this I suspect is part of the bill will get will there be a lot of opposition to this and I want to be clear about the language of what this actually does and I wanted to give you the landscape here how about how this would fit Arkansas with the others this is on page five of the bill line fourteen it doesn't say you wait ten days to disclose. Right now the rule is three business days the rule is must set a date and our within three working days at which time the record we made available within and there are Attorney General opinions that answer the question posed by the custodian DO I can I just wait always three days before before I disclose and the answer is consistently in those aged pinions is no you can't just wait once you have the document ready to go you need to disclose that because the text doesn't say you must wait until the third day he says you that's your final deadline that language remains unchanged in the bill the thing that's been changed here is the number of days from three days to ten days which would put us in about the middle of the pack among all the states in their response deadline again I say Texas it's identical language to what this bill is what this bill as Oklahoma has no specific response deadline at all it just tells the custodian and they must promptly respond. Missouri three business days to get the records or this is very important or respond in writing about why they cannot give the records within that amount of time and give the date certain by which they can so there is a provision in the text of the four year that ensures that records custodians are not breaking the law with without anything they can do about it and that's what the next provision does on page five line seventeen through twenty one it essentially codifies the attorney general's advice over the years about sending that letter to the request and explaining why they can't respond respond in the appropriate amount of time and I add this would give a textual basis for a judge who would be later reviewing whether someone delayed intentionally or fail to respond properly with the judge could could have a textual hook to allow them to respond in a more timely production schedule and this by the said put this in the middle of the pack both with the states around us and the states as a whole. Right the last thing the bill does is in section six should it exempt cybercrime discussions from public meetings I'm sure everyone saw the incident last year where the Little Rock School District was the victim of a Russian ransomware attack this is not something that existed in nineteen sixty seven the end of the school district ended up agreeing to pay the attacker a ransom of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars quarter of a million dollars this just puts those conversations in the same category of discussions it as it would be like disciplining an employee where you can discuss that in executive session it's a very real concern that cybercriminals can use our open records laws to their advantage and then use that information to increase ransom payments and that's what the bill does before I take before we take questions I do want to address one thing that I suspect will be brought up in the opposition and that is might decision or not decision to attend the for your task force meeting to explain this bill I was invited and I accepted an invitation to participate but the meeting which I did not schedule was scheduled at a time when I had to run a bill in a Senate committee I did not schedule that Senate committee meeting it was a bill I had agreed to run and I had multiple individuals who came into town from hours and hours away who drove here as well as people on the other side who flew in from Washington DC to testify against my bill and I did not think it was fair to them or to my people to bail on that to attend this meeting I informed the chair the for your task force that I was unable to make it and I explain why for reasons unknown to me he failed to communicate that during the for your task force meeting and so I just want to clear that up and we'll be happy to take any questions. Any questions from committee members. Womack you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chair if I misunderstand this feel free to clear me up a one hour of. School boards in cities and going courts and everything else on this exempted from the attorney client privilege we were really not included in that in this bill. That was a decision that I made in consultation with my Senate sponsor senator Davis you know local government in my opinion local governments often have even less scrutiny then then the state government does you know state government has a lot of uh media eyes and citizen eyes watching what goes on a day to day basis and I local government doesn't have quite as much scrutiny and so that was that was my rationale for making that distinction okay thank you. Representative more you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair representative rate my question. As to do with the part five of your bill of the uncompensated man hours who is the arbiter of determining what's takes eight hours to collect that information. The answer that is the same for all exemptions and that's the records custodian of the records custodian makes initial determinations here they're the person on the front line of the one on the ground floor and then that determination is review by a court. The other questions from committee members represent well Mike you're recognized one morning think I'm none of. Those those of request of extreme volume that you talked about earlier I completely understand the situation I was just curious has anybody ever been prosecuted in state of Arkansas for not being able to meet that deadline. To my knowledge. I see someone holding up one one finger I don't know whether that's true to my knowledge I don't know whether someone prosecuted for not meeting the deadline but there's two types of there's two types of forcing mechanisms in the foyer one is the prosecution which could be a misdemeanor the other one is the majority of those I've seen or meetings related not records related the other type of enforcement of civil action which is the usual way that the records provisions are enforced I'm not aware of any civil action where someone's been held liable where you can't physically meet it but that goes to my point earlier where most of the time the judges see this and they say this is on reasonable because you can't physically comply and isn't that we're that we have a law with that said some people up who in all good faith and they can do everything they can and I still can't comply with the law and so the judge has mercy on them which they should but there's no provision in the law that allows the judge to do that unlike the other states I reference the states around the specifically have a clause where you as the custodian can send the notice to the request or and say we can't meet it here's the reason why and here's a date certain we can get it to you and if the request your gets that may feel like that's in bad faith they can sue and a judge can look behind that and say one of the facts that supported the claim that you couldn't meet this and where the faxes supported that the earliest you could meet was this state and they can look behind and they could be held liable if they just make that kind of thing up just like they could today okay thank you. Other questions from committee members. Sam Nunn we have several people signed up to speak. For and against the bill. Committee Rep twenty eight people signed up to speak against the bill for your information twelve speak for the bill so just making you aware of that so First person signed up to speak against the bill is Jamie Gavin Gavin. You would service to have Saito ten the table indemnify yourself. Identify yourself to the committee and You're recognized two of the testimony yes Sir thank you Jamie Caven citizen. The bills before you today. Or not of the people for the people. The bill is of the government for the government. I find it shocking. That a Republican conservative governor and Republican conservative Attorney General would put the government ahead of the people. Even though I read to you before I'm going to read it again twenty five nineteen one oh to the intent of the Arkansas pretty made for racing the very reason the act was created. It is vital in a democratic society that public business be performed in an open public manner so that the electoral wars that's me that's them shall be advised of the performance of public officials and of the decisions that are reached in public activity in making public policy. Toward this end this chapter is adopted making it possible for them or their representatives to learn into fully report the activities of those officials. It is sad today are you going to preserve and protect it protect this act in this intent. Are you on third up. My question is who do you serve. Who do you serve citizens our government will take just a minute to tell you just a few things that the Arkansas free remember ation act in its current form has provided to help citizens with there was a thirteen year old little girl in middle school who was threatened with a vicious graphic rape. And then torturous murder. For you to prove that the principal in that situation failed to notify the police in the Arkansas state police online. Senate president bill as teacher was left of the school M. and teacher left the school and want to go to other employment only to be turned down at two different places. For you prove that her former supervisor was a releasing potential employer of potential if imports personnel records that are exempt and was telling untruths about the teacher. Four year provided video proof of a share of punching and choking a jail inmate just because he could. Central Arkansas police department chief mandated that each patrol officer makes for. I think stops a day and if they didn't those officers would face punishment. Without for you we would have never been able to prove it and put a stop to it. An inmate at a county jail data horrific death appear to nine as as a result of being denied medical help and violating jail standards without four year we would have never known about it for been able to prove that it happened. I noticed a child was struck by an instructor at a school but his individual education plan was not followed of by federal and state guidelines. If it wasn't for for you that young man would not be getting the proper care. He needed when he needed and we would have never known about the abuse in November last year man died in a jail cell after being booked on a misdemeanor. Without you we would have never known that the jail standards requiring an early checks on him or never made and that the deputy charged with monitoring the cameras for his cell was the entire not. Payroll records we were able to obtain it shall what the school superintendents from the ten largest school districts actually made verses of what the school website says. Little rock school district website said two hundred seventy thousand it was actually three hundred thirty two payroll records. Senate bill two thirty seven seven twenty was actually two eighty seven six sixty four. Cabot two four hundred forty four thousand seven dollars it was actually two hundred eighty six thousand two hundred fifty seven dollars. Then bill two hundred forty five thousand it was actually two hundred seventy thousand four hundred eight dollars and twenty six cents Springdale two hundred forty thousand was actually two hundred sixty five thousand one hundred. Fort Smith two hundred fifteen thousand two hundred ninety two dollars it was actually two hundred sixty thousand four hundred thirty five dollars and twelve cents Conway two hundred twenty thousand when it was actually two hundred forty two thousand eight hundred thirty three dollars and thirty six cents let me add in Fort Smith did you know the state that taxpayers are paying the superintendent student loan. Yeah well we know that. For you. Last but not Meeks. What for you we wouldn't know about the lit fest in paying ruby's contracts his lavish city credit card spending like the one that was over twelve hundred dollars at Arthur St cast for him his friend. Hundreds of thousand dollars a year for the cost to security detail. I bet last night Frank was sent may read this bill with a huge smile on his face while he was enjoying drinks that citizens paid for. I can't tell you right now and I can go into detail but we have FBI investigations going on in other agency investigations going on it It for war process and use it for you wouldn't be happening. Now what I just read you. Would have been able to be exposed and none of those people we got help if this law had been passed because one they would have been exempt to I couldn't afford to get a. That would be holding my information at ransom. Someone close with this I'm going to ask you again. Who do you serve do you serve government. Thirty seven people. Thank you and I would much welcome any questions questions from committee members represent to cover you're recognized for a question thank you Mr chairman. And I'm for for you just so you know but we've heard and I wanted them you know everybody in here who's going to speak against it. Don't you think it's ridiculous of the eight hundred thousand documents. And that kind of stuff is what is ridiculous the staff you talked about and learning what's going on in the police and the jails yes yes. But this kind of stuff where bloggers come in and there is no. There's no restraint of what has to be done. And I'm just wondering is there a compromise in that with the Attorney con a client privilege with the published research you know what that response time and with the cyber crime so when we're dealing with people's lives in the police and. The city board of directors of the things we want to know is what's been said the way the sausages may totally I'm there I am there but when it comes to this other stuff that we heard I just want to know if everyone who is against it believes there is a compromise we can make to where it doesn't where One the government and the people. But that we can work together that's my question I I think it's a very good question to you and I'll go back to this I do understand there's abuse okay I've seen it in in a written fear H. may it really does. But we also go back to list liken it to gun control. We just had a we just had a mass shooting again right so the answer to take away everybody's guns is the answer to Pitsch question called assault rifles that nobody can find is the answer to take away the right from the citizens that are doing it correctly so yes ma'am I agree what I will say is this. This bill this bill was I feel like intentionally filed at the end of the session to cram it through if you just want to do an interim study. Then I think that's pretty not think we can try to find compromise. But the premise though at the end and just take away my rights the citizens rights what about the kid with all to. What what what about what about the family the man that died in jail we wouldn't even know about that and we're going to take that we're going to take that away from those people just because we got some idiot Little Rock. Allen those bills okay it in state eight one seven yes thank you Mr Gavin yes Sir that you would be speak to speak on the the your I know you're thinking against the bill but try to focus and stay on the bill itself and not be referring to individuals or other people and and kind of derogatory way so sure I would appreciate it if you yes yes I did I apologize liability because somebody immediate so we you know we cannot name but yes Sir I understand that I apologize for that. Should the apology representative coverage you have follow up okay it's given us a no further questions for you thank you for being here today and the signed next to speak of thank you Sir you're welcome sign up next week against the bill is Missy Bosch. Michelle believes are. The right mission you have to go home she had to go on. signed up to speak. Against the bill is Donnie's Coggins. Scholarship thank you Mr chairman Donnie Scroggins of a great county Poinsett thank you know where that's at I'm in opposition to this bill and. I've heard the word abuse before I came here but that the government officials are being abused a. The two gentlemen that were here to talk about this at the state level but I'm a customer fully a mainly at the county level which means all seventy five counties and I will tell you Arkansas has one of the most role but not of not only the most robust fully law in America today I'm an expert witness in South Carolina and unity go there see what they're fully laws the clack I don't want to be mental the fact that the as they said I want to be the premier state with four yep that being said we mention compromising let me tell you my experience with for you. Last summer I started pulling what we call cast vote records big big item of the also the five counties me to have a compromise doing email simply mail and I ask for these records which are electronic records it takes three to five minutes to pull off the laptop sometimes when I see in the email on Monday I'll give them five business days sometimes I go two weeks without a response I'm actually have all my emails please acknowledge this email I've got Clark's aunt or custodian's that's how I dress on okay so they know who's gonna give me the records that's I'll wait sometimes two weeks before response I do compromise a three minute to find the report will take me a month to get sometimes I have counties now the nine the CBR send ballot review files but caught just simply because they can they referred me to the county attorney's. And then once my remedy to go so I don't have all the money go seven seventy five counties. And there's no reason for this I do compromised so I kind of feel abused by the system myself as a customer for you. That being said The three days thanks Hey I get abused from government on that all the time most of my emails are not answered in three days my product here's my understanding I sent an email out on Monday morning asking for electronic record which they know exist sometimes they'll the night and I have to prove to amend exist actually with the C. B. R. files I had actually act to drive to the counties to show them how to pull off the election where software computers these reports myself I can't really use computers I'm just a computer guy I've actually had to hire people to do zoom meetings will Clark to show multiple CBR files it's a three to five minute process now the case were used or talk about six thousand records whatever that is abuse but I'll tell you. When I have Clark's that won't deliver an electronic record to me in three to five minutes in the second business day I'll negotiate with them I do that goes on that's what goes on after you got the law like they discussed the law what goes on out there is different because I I get abused. Not have to suffer going to court plan for myself on something as simple in that and also on page two a talk about likelihood determines what likely to be used by law enforcement I understand ongoing investigations all the stuff I'm all for that nothing for your handles that now I know I can go get a ongoing case file from the Trumann police department I know that or the state police I don't expect it I don't expect things are in process I understand I understand that we understand it is citizens Also the for the task force I'm a I got for you manual holder but he has it. Why wasn't the task force here today I mean what what's their appointed they have different people marked what were their opinion and on this. And as far as getting charged when I get my records electronically I sent an email in the CVR files can be emailed to me an excel spreadsheet. I haven't played around with me give it to in some kind of crazy XML foreman these Clark's player with the they don't tell you the truth I'll get an email to send the name of the the request to a week later the say well that's the wrong email so that's the kind of use that I get as a citizen and also. We're talking about I'm only in this with the cybersecurity part. I'm a computer guy been in computer system that a main frames around and I do a lot of cybersecurity work I will tell you that it's kind of Latin on that senator to and at the last of this bill it talks about cybersecurity me to if you're you're a public entity. And you have shall we say a ransomware attack like a school this this body. The first person to be notified by law is state says so you have a state see I ASA agency which falls under the federal system people they're going to come in and actually install software in your system to try to mitigate what's going on that had happened Little Rock if not they probably broke the law the congressman Crawford gives great sessions on what Sisi is not all this good stuff so. The cyber security thing that's taken care of by system what was it took three months ago when the. Hey I don't accuse but I think a company called filariasis a bill ran most of the state's collectors and assessors software. They got hacked and it made the papers for two three days in that best or is that. you can you for you to find out what happened the only thing under that spot my sister what are y'all back online and off have the shoe boxes again. For you allows you to do that but that's strange that stores disappeared. But also as far as this determining eight hours I'm actually. I was forced to go into a clerk's office to get electronic records you could email to me I took my all thumb drive. But she made me purchase her own phone draft just to show that she could do it that's the kind of abuse that citizens get I'm talking to from the other side of the table and I've been doing this for three years full time now and this bill. The first part of the bill may I understand the. The investigation stuff that's but that to me is already covered I don't I'm not a lawyer I can't follow the logic that they had but I am a citizen with an education and to me fully of works for Arkansas I don't know why we've got these two bills up here. Late in the session and we got a lot about your great for your bills. That may be or may been didn't get hurt here heard today down the hallway but I don't understand why these bills it's just to me they're there for you killers it's going to kill four is going got in Arkansas and then maybe we'll have experts most days come here and try to help us in court that the with that I yield my time. Any questions for misguided refuge Richmond recognized for a question. Thank you Mr yes Sir I apologize I missed would you restate your job what it is that you do that requires you to have to reach out to the seventy five counties and and and do this for your request with them yeah let me give you my journey may of twenty twenty a check my voter registration had a I thought was a role there so I thought I was as a roll and so I called the secretary of state's office he said not all that means optional so I know in January nineteen eighty I registered as a Republican but in April of all six six all the databases got changed to optional at one point. Domino six when they populated the database this way us everybody was optional most people here thank you Republican right now you need to check your your voter registration. Most Republicans role for optional that's that backs options majority party in Arkansas maybe that's why we closed our primary. But I started that journey in may of twenty twenty nine of the poll worker in November twenty. And I had a hundred twenty five ballots in in our precinct their imports accounting two people came in and they say we are system the poll books have you been voted for already they said we had voted yet okay that's intriguing to me as a computer person that so we go ahead and we close out and I go home at twelve o'clock trust women known to get come in at five wake up at five thirty lose and so okay I'm a computer guy so let me start checking into this so it I started pulling the CVR as which is part of the yes this systems software comes off the election where laptop that the county's county has one and is proprietary to yes last providers in other words love the staff for the election system I can see because it's proprietary and to may I ask for the copy of the just the database lay out I was told by this race can have its proprietary because you might let you hack into the system which is not correct my background is in computer science I have a masters in the political science master's and voter registration of. That part of two other master's degrees thank thank goodness but so that's where my journey began so I am at a point I'm special pathway because I'm retired. can monetarily do election technically work full time that's what I do I go counties to counties Committees to committees involved in the. So the hardware software and of our election system is my forte in Arkansas. Man so that's my journey three years. And the other questions from committee members. Seeing none represent Mr Coggins thank you for your testimony here today I thank you chairman. Signed up to speak against the bill. Representative where you have a question of motion let me hear your motion thank you Mr chairman and in order to or able to hear all the testimony as like to make a motion that we limited debate five minutes per side. We have a motion to to limit debate two five minutes to each to each individual testifying until the table is that correct I understand your motion by image for each one represent for my. Yes. Yeah that's a limit to the testimony not to debate. Yeah just but those are signed up to speak for against the bill you want unlimited five minutes per individual whether for or against the bill five for each one is that correct. Okay that is non debatable. Of. All in favor say aye All opposed say no. Does that would. So for those of you that are signed up to speak for or against the bill of the Clerk will time you when you Senator into the table and will notify you when the five minutes is up and the. So next time to speak against the bill is Roger kid. Roger. I just have senator Kay of the table and there's we just stopped a motion I'm sure you heard it you have five minutes. Thank you Sir my name is Roger kid up from Craighead County Arkansas live outside the city limited of Jonesborough. I've been in this room since about eleven thirty this morning waiting to wait and see all I've been here in this building since about eight thirty quarter to nine this morning. But yet I've changed my notes. About this about what I want to say several times since I've been here I've been listening and I'm just sick it just makes me sick I want to say I will start off and I'm or I'm going to I'm going to read through Mister chair especially I can and and get up and go watch eight I'm not going to make any apologies about my passion or I would be down here I don't come down here often. And I want to state after I read what I've got written down here I'm going to state state and experience that I'm going through in the now about for you. My first of. You for your was passed Division Pat for yes are here to make government officials or government jobs easier. That's not what was written it was written so the so the people. Could see what the government does. And my mom and I'm I'm a Republican. In my mind is going to individual responsibility and initiative. And if it won for us that are involved in the here today here today nobody would have probably even come up with a four year back in sixty seven. Okay so here I go. My first point I have for. Of. I sees it as a citizen I'm going to look at this as like I needed defense attorney I'm in trouble or something. The biggest problem with this bill is quote. And any evidential material is likely to be used by law enforcement and a criminal criminal prosecution. Often criminal defense attorneys use apple AT determine how much charge they'll charge their clients. Or to get discovery rather quickly in cases because the prosecution does not provide until after the arraignment. What that means to me as a citizen if I screwed up I'm going to sit in jail longer. That's exactly what that means. Number two. The Arkansas constitution in our federal constitution has a composed compulsory clause in the Fifth Amendment. It gives the accused and the victim both the rights to see witnesses in favor for and against. The composed or clause of the Fifth Amendment of the Arkansas constitution and the federal constitution is null and void. On this bill. It's it it's if a defense attorney does not have any evidence on me. He's he has to get a continuation. Of what I'm involved with. And I'm in jail longer again. Number three. This section stating that apple Y. a request doors have to pay for printed records if the software of the conduct custodian requires it it in sentence it gives county clerks of government officials it is it gives them incentives. To have printing software. That requires printing documents merely to avoid my a polite request. Number four. Changing from three to ten days. It's the government's job to respond. To make. It's as simple as that. No one will make one more statement non done Mister chair. I currently have for four years going on right now. Addition at this moment and out of three of those for four years. Three of those four four years have been violated and not noncompliance owns almost maybe one of them has two days maybe another one has one thing yada yada. I'm a citizen and I cannot afford an attorney to take civil action. If anything at all about this bill and are for your loss. We need something for this little guy like me the citizens to be able to hire some type of civil representation because I can't do it. Thank you all for your time god bless I appreciate this. I hope I don't have to come back this kid that was amazing that was five minutes on the money hello Any questions who has already left in the state so C. like. Sign up next to speak against the bill is Laurie justice. It's just as you would just have saved in the table dinner by yourself to the committee and as a reminder you have five minutes and I'll know I'll let you know when the five minutes is up yes Sir thank you didn't be five minutes hi my name is Laurie Justin's and I represent myself. we heard at the beginning of this discussion from representative ray an understand now with all due respect I do like representative ray but the fact of the matter is that our representatives work for us the people Hey they don't work for the governor or the the Attorney General they were hired and voted by us the people to represent us. And I just want to read you something I'm going to be brief. I think most of us in here are Republicans. I want to read to you from our platform and our principles. We firmly supports transparency and openness at every level of government those elected appointed and employed in government work for the taxpayers of this state and must provide information public information when requested in line with Arkansas is freedom of information act. We support requiring that notice of public meetings be given not only to the press but also directly to the people by posting notices on government websites and social media accounts and sending them by email to interested parties. Finally we support continuing efforts to make clear to local governments that are officials are not to conduct public meetings public business outside the parameters of a duly noticed public meetings so that the public has the opportunity to see the entire decision making process and to participate if they so choose. And so I'm going to end with that and I'm going to ask what your constituents want. Because that's who everyone works for so I would appreciate a no vote on this thank you thank you for your testimony questions from committee members say none ma'am thank you for being here sign up next to speak against the bill is Scott gray. Scrapie which artists have stated in the table indemnify ship to the committee and you're recognized five minutes to give you testimony. Thank you I'm Scott gray on behalf of the sling County Republican committee. Reshape the time to speak today but making for your request more difficult and expensive this bill creates doubt suspicion and ultimately leads most taxpayers in the dark I'll make for brief points one taxpayers already funded these clerical positions the administrative support staff gathering for your Local courthouse and you'll see that. It really isn't a burden on the local government to produce documents that already belong to the taxpayers to as to the eight hour proposal for your request are often the culmination of extensive research and in many cases the one individual is making the request they're made on behalf of a much larger number of concerned citizens I would argue that it's easier for a government office to fulfill one for your request that might take ten hours been to receive and fulfill ten separate requests when we make these large request and I'm not talking about hundreds or thousands of hours we're actually saving governmental employees time by not peace mailing. Further the bill relies on the governmental agency to truthfully document the time and charges with zero oversight that's an invitation for some corrupt custodian to over bill in an attempt to defeat the spirit of the four year low third ten days to respond to a records request is neither efficient nor transparent a lot can happen in ten days some custodian's already stretched the three days out to seven or ten we've had multiple cases were counties would take a week to provide simple phone numbers which should have already been on their website and should never required a for your request if the law gives some ten days they might now take thirty. Finally these repeated attempts by Republicans to dismantle Fauria will only create more doubt more suspicion and more darkness our party platform says we believe in a transparent government and that's the same party platform of representative Reagan Senator Davis to sponsor the bill. As ordinary citizens for you laws are the one method we have to keep tabs on our government please don't from your nose is at your own citizens work with the taxpayer's rather than find ways to avoid them thank you. Make sure any questions from committee members. Say no we appreciate you being here sign up next to speak against the bill is Allison gray. Describe you would just have seating in the table in a place of committee and you're recognized to speak my mind you have five minutes ma'am yes Sir I'm Alison grant gray a registered Republican voter in slowing county and a member of sling can Republican committee and sling can Republican women. I'm in any an email yesterday when C. Bailey fringe on behalf the Arkansas association of counties. Thank you for your quote has been twisted and abused as a political tool to punish elected officials. She went on site this quote this abuse is now an all time high it said there are elected officials. It said that our elected officials see yes voters and taxpayers as the enemy the more I paid attention to poor politics I discovered that there's an us versus them mentality among the electives expressly on the county level unfortunately many of our elected think they work for the association of Arkansas counties. As they are in this room today and many of them are because of the emails they receive from miss France yesterday is why they are here if you pass this bill you're leading a taxpayer funded lobbyist group destroy our right to know what's happening in our own government Arkansas is known for its strong taxpayer friendly for your walls this bill begins to chip away at those rights that citizens who came before me work so hard to obtain that's why I strongly oppose this bill and she just put the taxpayers in Arkansas voters first. Thank you ma'am any questions from committee members say no we appreciate you being here. Signed up to speak for against the bill is. Back. It. Matus matrix but I'm going to pass on this okay which version are. Next on the agenda to speak against the bill is called. Call Watson. What you if you would service. Have a seat in the table and identify yourself to the committee and Reminder you have five minutes and you're recognized the testimony. yes on call Watson I'm from the flowers county of Jefferson it's a dual Stempel our of. I guess I've more or less have a question more than I do a statement and I'd like to begin I don't know if representative right you're still in the room or not but my question really begins at Page one line thirty two ends it up Page two line ten all of the additional language that's underlined there seems to address only state agencies and state employees doesn't say anything at all about municipalities county school boards or anything like that and I understand that that makes them completely exempt from any for yeah action at all in the future once this takes but it would would be taking place and the second thing I would like to say it's just a simple statement of There is no official anywhere No employee anywhere at all in this building that was not elected hired appointed whatsoever that's not actually a public servant which it is addressed in this document. And I always thought that meant a servant of the public not a any kind of a ruler of the public are over the public and the book that I read in Matthew twenty three eleven says the greatest among you should be a service thank you. Thanks service signed up next to speak Against the bill is. Cheddar Chester Mr. She ability she should. Joe McCutchen. Your service areas. You would just have say ten the table indemnify you ship to committee and revised we have five minutes Sir join the catch in Arkansas transparency in government group feels like a little bit about that David versus Goliath here the people versus government. And that's sad you know that's sad that that the this feels like a well oiled government machine today. This bill was filed on Monday is put on special session two days later on Wednesday afternoon. This bill is filed at the end of the session with a week and a half to go by the power brokers of the State of Arkansas apparently the people didn't know that the governor supports this the Attorney General supports this Mr Ray supports this but we get it at the end of the session that's not fair that's not right. The for your task force was set up by this body in two thousand seventeen to protect the for you and ask questions and to vet bills like this a bill that will get for your for records especially for the poor folks especially for the folks who can afford twenty five dollars to pay for their records that's not right I don't care if there are eight hundred thousand records maybe it's a hundred thousand records like occurred at Penn state university I've had experience with Penn state university I represented to basketball coaches in their current coach now Jerry Sandusky molested children year after year and they had records that were similar to this Mr ray tells us he tells us that he didn't have he had another committee meeting Mister ray is a political veteran he understands that at the end of the session at the end of the session you're busy we set up a special four year meeting just to hear this bill that's not right. That's not fair that's where compromises occur that's where bills like this are vetted and they should be vetted. For you task force voted unanimously stating they were only not in favor of this but that's not in the best interest of the state of Arkansas. And they're right because these exemptions are large enough that you can drive a Mack truck through any time you want to any time you want to keep things out of the government view just put on there that we're anticipating litigation that we've talked to our attorney about this. We're entitled to see the sausage making the deliberative process that's what's meaningful that's we don't want to see the final vote we want to see we want to see the documents we've done it for how many years now. The sponsor says he's he's proud that will Arkansas has such a fine freedom of information act but he wants to prevent against those who weaponize for yet you know I'm not a transparency but person but will but I've heard that the entire session I love transparency but. I am one of those persons who weaponize Fauria I plead guilty as charged. And you know what I've discovered is that in for Faye Advil Arkansas island Campbell. Discovered through records requests the critical race theory was going on. The kids in Huntsville Arkansas another case through for your request we determined the kids were being sexually assaulted by other kids you know what else we've also seen in Conway Arkansas that transgender folks wanted records also. They wanted records one bathroom bills were going through there entitled to those records to fully is not a conservative issue for you is not a a for you is not a liberal issue for you is not a Republican issue for you is not a a Democrat issue for you it is a freedom issue period it's a freedom issue. I've said I've quoted that the nineteen sixty seven Legislative intent. I want to ask you is it really vital to the democratic society that government business be done in open and public. Let me ask you again what if your what is your your your the people who voted for you have you had just tons of them calling you and saying we're we're we we we want to close we want dark government we we want we want folks to have to pay for records I mean that that's going to have a chilling effect that's going to have a chilling effect on people requesting records everybody everybody didn't wear a suit and tie like Joey McCutchen does we've got we've got people who can afford to pay the electric bill but they're entitled to one record ten records or one hundred thousand records because you know what that eight hundred thousand records that may prove that a child was being sexually assaulted that may prove we we talk about the library bill that just passed through here you know I was involved in a four U. case where I got documents involving the library in Jonesborough Arkansas Mr because of damages upsurge thank you Sir any questions from committee members say nine thank you for your testimony here today. Signed up to speak for against the bill Sargent band Thomas. St Thomas I guess no longer here Stephanie Stephanie Friedman. Stephanie Freeman. Stepped out. I believe the last name is Cobb from sure would yes. If you register by yourself to the committee I believe you're speaking for the bill is that correct yes Mister chairman you're recognized hi my name is Steve Cobb on the city attorney for city sure would I just want to address a couple of the points I'm sure there will be other individuals are going to speak to different points but With respect to a real world approach I just wanted to say that. We the goal from three days to ten days would would be helpful from the municipal level of because. A lot of the request that we get in this is not unusual whatever specific topic that they're asking about we'll have the words all documents. Like I'll get apple I request it says I wanna see all documents on X. project a road project and all documents means that. They're entitle that we're gonna get forum but it's going to touch on the city attorney's office is going to touch on road bridge going to touch on I engineering many many departments that we have to collect information to comply and when you get that FOR request that goes to the front burner in terms of your attention to what you have to do in and how you have to respond within that short period of time if we're given a lecture time I think that's going to be affected for cities to allow them to comply with the with the per the request but at the same time carry on the task that they have on a day to day basis in terms of governing what they're supposed to do in their jobs so I think that would that would be helpful to municipalities I think there's other folks here today they're going to echo that the other from the municipalities the other point I want to make. With respect to the it second session for the cyber crime or the cyber issue. I have a real world experiential and that in in the in the budget process in my city are at I. T. technician are consultant wanted to speak to that but wanted to speak about some issues and some vulnerabilities that he perceived may be present in our city and we couldn't talk about that accepting it very They terms which I think it would be more effective and more helpful for us and for the citizens to have their information protected if we do that in executive session so I think that just makes good common sense and I would urge you to support those two points thank you any questions from committee members say none thanks separate time here today also signed up to speak for the bill is Jeff Fager. Register by yourself to the committee you represent and you're recognized maybe testimony my name is Jeff Baker I'm the chief of police it sure would police department and I'm here to speak on behalf of the Arkansas association chiefs of police. I'm your sides Director of the Arkansas Association trees please. You're recognized what one of the the individual that have the label's with little rock police department I wish he could have stayed but he was going to testify about the number of officers that are dedicated at the little rock police department to. Cover all the info is they get. So the the. The point that I would like to to bring out to the committee and I appreciate the opportunity to speak is that you know I don't I don't disagree with that with what a lot of the citizens have said in here about transparency and freedom of getting information and I can tell you is you know Mr Cobb our city attorney spoke right before us and and he reviews all of these FY request that that are presented to us and the concern that that I have as an administrator of a police department is the is the amount of resources that I have to put towards the feeling of these these freight of a map of information request we're not opposed to filling them but I mean we're getting we get so many that are so open ended that it just it really becomes a strain on our resources I don't disagree that we are paid by taxpayers Taxes but I I will also tell you that what what you're paying for my employees to do is to patrol and my employees are being paid to to protect our citizens to to not research and and provide documents I mean that is part of our job it's it's big it's getting to the point where I'm having to pour more and more more resources towards that and less and less away from or being paid to do it or what our mission is to be paid to do so that's just my that's my perspective and I'll answer any questions that you might have. Are there any questions from committee. If not we thank you for your testimony here today thank. Next we have to win rather us. To speak for. I read you For the record please yes Mister chair thank you I'm sure tell road in Faulkner County. Thank you you're a plow is to go ahead with your testimony all right thank you Sir most of for your requests that that we receive a Faulkner County commit competition in a very short period of time the majority of them can be however that Durham are there are times when it takes hours and even days and weeks on some cases to be able to just depending on the nature of the request for you as a system of transparency and we firmly believe in a support in the system. However our hope is to mold into shape this law to best serve the citizens of of all of Faulkner County that's our entire desire here. Of abuse of the system only prohibits a timely return of legitimate for your requests in place a burden on our already stretched. And strained. Staff that's within our offices we currently have us a stack of four years in our front offices as we speak that was that we had. Developed. Seven months ago. And they're still in our front office and we're still waiting for people to come and pick them up and so there's some abuse that's occurring there and that's one of the abuses that we met with that we have experienced the request they call it cost this time man hours of which affect our already stretched budget. Keep in mind at the same time there were legitimate request by our citizens and our media. That were also waiting on there for you is to be answered. While we were fulfilling. These obvious illegitimate request. In the past we think encountered in Buse abuse of the four year where we had law firms that were trolling are booked in page on our website. Who had been arrested the previous night before and they within forty of the request of those that they thought would be a candidate for their defense. This is not what the purpose of four years about four is about transparency as about the everything that everybody has spoke about up here. I fear that the issues will continue without having some type of accountability or per se skin in the game to be able to counteract the cost or of the amount of four years that is being abused I think this amendment addresses some of our concerns that's all I have Mister chair thank you Sir thank you any questions from committee members say no we appreciate your time signed up next to speak against the bill is loop construction. If you would just get a brochure of committee and Provide you have five minutes you're recognized to give you testimony yes Sir thank you I'm Luke Charleton number been counting a big proponent of transparency in government I appreciate the opportunity to speak I'm here to say speak against the H. P. seventeen twenty six I believe it is a bold over reach of a self serving government officials the foil was passed in nineteen sixty seven in Arkansas it's as those other people said it's one of the best for laws in the whole United States it's it's amazing when I hear things about comparing it to other states I don't wanna I don't wanna live lesson are for low to just because some other state government was able to do in their state I don't want that to happen to our state You know we have recently been through a very trying three years you know twenty twenty elections were very questionable we've had a lot of regulations with COVID we've had all kinds of concerns me as a as a person as a as the general public we have all kinds of questions I think it's natural that these requests in times like these they should go up this is the whole reason why point was created for the concerned citizen to be able to look into these things and ask questions it's made it this far with very few changes we don't need to change all these things now I understand the concerns about people trying to abuse it that makes sense but I also have friends that have ask for five different questions and a fit for your platform who have been threatened with the harassment lawsuit by a government official so it goes both ways you know we as the people we get threatened as well but I I've never had any complaints from a person who has requested documents that have taken more than three days when the official has communicated that it may take more than three days that they're working on it that it's you know it's something that's just a big request when they communicate there are no problems it's when they don't communicate the way I don't get an email back for five days for a week not even a responsibility even got it an email back and they're like oh we never got it. Okay maybe those are the concerns that I have. Sir I think wiser this increase employee I think it's because people are they don't trust the government right now so they're asking a lot of questions that doesn't mean we should change the laws that the snow of that of their questioning we need to fix the government we need to change the things that we're doing so people aren't aren't so concerned. I have a lot of notes here and trying to get everything out. Some of the some of the notes I've taken earlier. I got that one. How about the legal advice being paid you know when I hired attorney with my private money and I have the attorney client client client privilege I think that's fair my question if I was on this committee if I was somewhere else I would ask will. Are we going to give that same privilege to attorney that's been hired with taxpayer funds for that person I mean I don't know I don't know how it works but that's one of my questions I would have the if is taxpayer funded attorney for a public officials that the same thing as an individual hiring that attorney for themselves. You know there was a complaint about exempting intellectual research of a of a university will that publicly funded you know if we exempt that is that hindering that research maybe a competitor gets under the research to and it further is that research farther and that's better for the general public I don't know those are just questions I have why would we want to hide it if it was funded by the public why we had that from anybody. The C.. Thank you have the my biggest concern with seventeen twenty six is the two things the compensation that you want to you want to charge the individual if it takes more than eight hours that such a huge deterrent for anybody to request it because that might actually end up costing the money so you're gonna yeah you're gonna get a lot less request because people are gonna be fearful to ask so that is going to take the the the transparency of the government and that's going to bar it does come make it less and that's the opposite of what the four is meant for. Three days there's ten days the question was asked I was glad that has anybody actually been sued you know I don't think this is a problem like I said when you have the proper communication and people are saying this is gonna take me for five days the probably not gonna get a lawsuit from some individual who doesn't have the time or the money or the capacity to hire an attorney anyway. I do have also have concerns that it was not brought before the for task force I think that's a huge issue I think the timing this bill is bad and that that's all I have to say thank you guys. Thank you so any questions from committee members shall never appreciate your time. Signed up to speak as bills robbers nine back. stage nine to the committee recognized give you testimony. Thank you chairman my name is Robert Steinberg I'm a professor I'm a lawyer lawyer upon the Fauria task force the for the coalition I'm the author of the treatise on the freedom of information act it was good to see the attorney from the AG's office my former student he did mention that part it didn't mention that everyone of his opinions coats my book this is the previous edition of my book and all in all three authors this section authors Richard J. Peltz Steele he's sitting right there he lives in Massachusetts but he's here at this hearing because of this bill that's how bad the for task force has never issued an opinion as it did for this bill it they said this bill is not in the best interests of the state they have never issued an opinion like that before that's how this bill is David what purity skip the whole first section you know the first sections of government agencies an agency of the state that means. She shall we showed up don't worry you don't have to answer thank you for your request this bill is exempted municipalities and counties. One in its entirety this written by the ACA and the Municipal League hi. To the next section then it says that we want to put on going criminal activities twenty years ago the Supreme Court said that's in the law so you want to put the word in okay but you're not fixing anything then the following sentence regarding law enforcement issues says or materials likely to be a law enforcement in a criminal prosecution wait what. What if I want to make a request of those cops that are in uniform our good friends by the way I once served as an auxiliary police officer in another life. How did they get here today and who paid for it so I make a request right well that you municipality no response because this law has exempted it if it's the state police and then they say oh wait we have committed a crime by coming here on our. Thank you for for your request but we can all be for free so we're going to come here in the lobby. For your quest to find Enforcement. Agency investigating for committing a crime so that section is nonsense now let's come back and look at the other end slightly reverse order or reverse order these deliberate to have process. Deliberative process well you see the governor has an agent on the constitutional officers haven't you haven't. You're not that's why because you're going to deliberative process but when the bureaucrats take away your rights and you want to show me a final product. The way you would have to do is send it through the Attorney and then to get stamped attorney client privilege and you don't get it you will get no records you will know what courage under this Next section I got a lot of the what if it takes more than eight hours then we're going to charge you as the representative ray tried to take the the wind out of the sale he said well this is just like the service you right it's a good service we want to go to court you know how much I need to file a lawsuit in court a hundred seventy five dollars. I get a judge I get a better. I did. I get hours and hours and hours of work four hundred and seventy five dollars and these guys want to charge me per hour by the way what are they going to charge me for our. Work from the person they determine to do it wait for the contractor they hire under. I would work but under this bill outsource contractor and what whatever the contractor charges thanks contractors charging minimum wage. Our that's what the contractors charging that we got attorneys review it after all we don't use our insider journeys like line obviously did like right now. We don't hire some big tall building. That Ryan told other people want to go to work for right go to the governor it's not a good bill right. Folks. You want to fix it your time is up we appreciate your testimony questions from committee members. Saying none thank you Sir thank you. Sign up next speak against the bill is hello Greg. The private sector mental and you're recognized to pre testimony thank you my name is Ellen craft and I'm the owner and the publisher of the Madison County record in Huntsville Arkansas I'm a board member of the Arkansas press association. Thank you thank you for your time I know the hours late I appreciate all the work you put in on hearing both sides I want to talk to you today about the practical implications of this bill on a very specific situation that happened in Huntsville just two years ago and has been on going this is a real world application to this bill in early two thousand twenty one the Madison County record published a story exposing the school board's attempted cover up of player on player sexual abuse that had taken place and the Huntsville boys locker room for two years multiple players were sexually assaulted by teammates multiple times upon learning of the assaults the first thing the district administration school board members and personnel dead we seek to cover up not only the assaults but their failure to report the salt assaults to the Arkansas child abuse hotline victim's parents fearful that the district would not be transparent approach the record and ask us to investigate to hold the district's administration accountable the administration refused to divulge what actions took place to keep their children safe or when they reported the abuse to the hotline we were able to tediously piece together what took place in the districts cover up and lack of action three four yeah we were able to find out by using for yeah that the board members and the administration found out about the Celts in early February we found out by four yeah and this is the part that's important that they didn't contact their attorney's attorney client privilege they didn't contact their attorneys until the end of February three four yeah we found out that the attorney told them Hey investigate first report second because of being able to access documents and correspondence with the district attorney's we were able to show that the superintendent the coach the high school principal and the athletic director fail to and meet. Cantley report the assaults to the Arkansas child abuse hotline the superintendent and the coaches were charged with failure to report they played guilty and they're no longer employed with the district this bill would have protected their behavior kept secret from the parents that districts attempts at the cover up of their malfeasance and their failure to review of report the abuse. This section a lot of the bills have been about helping children. This bill harms them this bill would get forty ACT and have allowed and not only allowed but in able to district to cover up the administration's failure to report without access to the attorneys documents the former superintendent board members and coach would not have been held accountable I want to talk to you about the fees in our situation many of the perpetrators were fluent the victims were poor they didn't know they could access for yeah we told them to go up there and get the records can you imagine if they had walked in and had to pay for documents in which their children's abuse was documented isn't that salt to the wound. This is the people's law the point should not be disadvantage when trying to access documents for yet should not be turned into a rich man's law where only a fluent have access to information and people are able to cover up their failure to report sexual abuse representative Crawford me address your question about the abuse. Let me just tell you can address it but you don't need permission to sell dresses I wanted and Arkansas annotated twenty five nineteen one oh five eight three says the request for documents masterpieces sufficiently specific to enable the custodian to locate the records that I know that people abuse for yeah I get that but if you have ten thousand documents don't throw out of the document request at one time this law prevents that if I were on the opposite side I would feel very confident in saying Hey your documents were not your request was not specific enough for me to enable exactly what he wanted and I understand and Arkansas for you law if I made a request to you you can't ask me why to say to me your request is not specific enough to enable Arkansas study and to locate those documents I understand that there is abuse let me just echo my the people who have said today this bill is being pushed through I'm a huge for you advocate I believe in transparency I believe in respect for government officials and they should be together. Since the questions from committee members so thank you for testimony here today thank you thank you. Page three made it back room you have stated in the table your bestie. Free of interrelationship to the committee in you're recognized Gaby testimony first of all I want to know if I can you'll in my part of my time to Mr stompbox. I don't know hello I sit and listen to this and I know you'll have to. And I and I this is with just a short fuse of a. I'm sorry sorry should we be others may not introduce yourself by a committee of fellow Janu me. one beach yes Sir I represent myself. But anyway I sit here and I've listened to this testimony some of been pretty good. Some of it's been probably has some holes in it. The one I stand outside the door and and the stand out there you hear a conversation from an officer. This is you know these people cases could points. I have some good points. How will concerned. Okay so this speaks volumes. And I'll tell you Robert I walked in the room may I mean I walked and but time he's started in all and I'm I'm Senate going yeah. You have this is a guy that wrote the book this is a guy that that actually was the other guy's teacher. And many brings and somebody that's that's nationally known. That is actually faulty science and are telling you that this is a bad bill. We recommend something. I'd like to recommend that you actually. It was bill now and if there's there's things that we need to win address. Pacific plea like eight hundred documents or somebody this abusing the system that we address so specifically we don't write a whole bill the gives everybody kills everybody else's rights because everybody else at right to listen and and and and and actually get the stuff that they pay for. I appreciate you let me talk to the. And now by the way global health. And I'll just have to say thank you any questions from committee members say no we appreciate you being here today College thank you. Signed up to speak against the bill is rusty Turner. If you would just pay set up to the committee and you're recognized to give you testimony thank you Mr chairman and I appreciate your attention I know they hours late I'll try not to be a repetitive my name is rusty Turner I'm the editor of the northwest Arkansas Democrat Gazette in fatal eleven Rogers I'm also a past president of the Arkansas press association board of directors I'm speaking on the APA's behalf today. Bill seventeen twenty six is a misguided bill that would significantly diminish the public's access to the working workings of their government the purpose of the FY as you have heard is to expose governments deliberative process to the members of the taxpaying public so that they can evaluate government performance in the performance of the people elected or appointed to do government business and this bill would clearly make it easier for governments operate operate outside the public's view ceiling government deliberations and documents from public scrutiny would certainly make it more efficient after all without those pesky taxpayers poking around life for government officials would be substantially easier so would getting away from with unpopular inappropriate or questionable policies without the safety as you heard from Alan Kress and several other witnesses today without the safety net of some light on the public's business government can operate without the check or balance of public opinion the language in this bill would exempt large swaths of documents from public disclosure documents that are currently available for inspection by any member of the public it even specifically exempts the liberty of documentation and communications between government officials but the deliberations of government or exactly what the public is entitled to observe with this bill there will be little public input or debate decisions could be made in private either in the old school smoke filled room or on a zoom meeting or with emails or text messages the only thing that happens in public would be a rubber stamp vote is that efficient perhaps is it good government now in addition this bill would make what few public documents remain available harder to get by allowing the government to charge what could be a substantial fee performing basic government functions. The FY has been in force since nineteen sixty seven the cost of providing government documents to the public should be baked into the budgets of government agencies it is after all a basic function of any government now. I know this bill wants to address abuses and certainly we can all knowledge there are abuses but as Alan pointed out there are also ways to deal with those abuses short of a law that December owls the current level on. From my perspective as a journalist I can tell you that the F. O. Y. is a vital tool for us to perform our function as a check and balance on government power as Ellen demonstrated earlier over the years I've encountered hundreds of government employees and elected officials want to do the right thing and are willing to provide the information to us that we know we're entitled to and I'm grateful to all of them but I've also encountered those who either don't care about their obligation to produce public records are worse want to hide them the FO I a has been the tool we've used to provide those documents free and it allows us to keep tabs on the people elected or appointed to do the governments business this building or removes that powerful tool from our toolbox our newsroom has covered dozens of stories over the years I've been in this business forty years I've been an editor for thirty two we cover dozens of stories that we would not have gotten without access to government records from coverage of the general improvement from corruption scandal a few years ago to even a small story like a local jail who removed an inmate but cart for disciplinary reasons from the jail but later claimed that they did it claimed publicly that they did it as a pandemic a precaution the current FY has allowed us to hold officials accountable in myriad of ways it may be inconvenient for some officials who prefer secrecy to transparency but it's good for the voters it's good for the taxpayer's and you work for them I urge you to vote no on this terrible bill I'm happy to answer any questions it questions from committee members say none thank you Sir for your time. Sign up next speak against the bill is Chris Corbett. Hey Chris core here my Conway attorney and I call myself an alleged criminal attorney if anyone of you all are arrested I'm going to sign you up on the charges the money Missy got charged with a DWI I'm obviously gonna send a four year quest for any video the officers you testified that that's awful the why this is important you know that those videos are created with taxpayer money this is about taxpayer money if they're spending taxpayer money I get to get to see the product I'll give you a short example climbing sitting the bartender it be dub dub the buffalo wild wings she said your DWI attorney said yeah well I got arrested of six months I think you said four months ago and she said With me I wouldn't drive in also went No Way they charge you the via me pull up on court correct yep you see it okay I see it I'll tell you what I represent you for free. If you were driving because I know in three days I get the video verses verses discovery intern appearance you hire me I'm going to defend you send my in my discovery request wait thirty days in this can guess what the prosecuting attorneys in here they can turn that discovery file over when it's practicable that's what rule I think thirteen or seventeen says in the Arkansas criminal rules of civil procedure or they also rules of criminal procedure I got it quickly got the video guess what she would drive in I still I was still and and so let me let me read it we redid the first paragraph in this bill and this is how it's going to be interpreted. Hello my time is limited. The first paragraph should kill this bill immediately right now a government agency. This is the redefining what a government agency is going through means office opening on. My picture didn't work me read to hear. Government agency means an office department commission council board committee legislative body agency or other status of the executive judicial or legislative branch. Of the state but this does not include county or the city that's it you got a table this table this thing Kelly right now put out of its misery I did just that first three lines it's over with right. So basically is that what you want to do your for the people here you're serving the people has been massive corruption exposed the last two three years in your body Senate legislators to jail and they're gonna exempt county officials and municipal officials in the first three lines it should be over with I know what time's limited to some few other things down there if if you will charge money the eight hours two more minutes the eight hours it's is literally in and further down the bill it says or contractor that's so simple if if a county or municipal or state hired me to defend the for your request I'd say Hey can get to my buddy over here you charges three fifty an hour so basically you you're voting for the rich here I've got rich clients we got poor clients miss Sydney the WW making minimum wage and she can have the money to fight the for your quest that had to threaten to sue to get that video I got the video it wouldn't her drive and that's just one example there's will have done numerous for request the real simple tab answer the the abusers put an amendment amendment in here for some compromise putting them in here in for a limited amount of time and Health by a specific date that there's the people that request these forty us are are reasonable there are some out there that abuse it but if it does come up here in here the fact that the stated by some of the officers wanna do some a a legislative study to figure out what's going on actually what's going on with forty four is huge and limit last statement let me let me tell you how huge it is you can limit the press to get the government records the press needs those records to expose corruption I don't have a burial fully now it's an internet and I saw on the internet right I don't have a a following of three million people if I find a document right but the press does and they need that many jaw defend them and the job to kill this. Bill immediately and I've got a question Chris Corbett McConnell a attorney in Faulkner County thank you any questions from committee members saying that thank you for your testimony sign up next speak against Baylor Scott Perkins. Scott Perkins. Signed up to speak against the bill is Luke's story. The store privileges device ships Committee and you're recognized the testimony Mr chairman distinguished committee members. You don't look tired so I'm impressed I appreciate the extended our hi my name is Luke story and I'm president of the Arkansas broadcasters association. and I want to acknowledge representive conference question I think I might my colleague kind of indicated there is some existing codified language at to help with that but we do acknowledge that the there are abuses and there are excessive on reasonable request but I think from our interest as far as pressing media we're pretty flexible understanding and we feel like I request a reasonable. there is a reason I believe one governor went up when governor Rockefeller signed our state's freedom information act law back in sixty seven that it was called the people's law it provides our Kansans with access and transparency. To the way their government is run at every level. Our law quite honestly is held up nationally as a model that others want to of public policy that promotes sunshine government accountability and access for the people. Over the years the law has been tweet we all acknowledge that and in some cases that may be warranted as technology changes or as new needs or issues arise. However this bill would represent a sweeping change to our law it would dramatically impact the public's access to information section two of this bill which we passed out over and over again but says that any evidence or materials likely to be used by law enforcement and a criminal prosecution would be she'll from shielded from four AM that's an extremely broad exemption and arguably apply to most anything associated with the crime or incident and if it's determined it may be used at some point and to be very clear I'm the brother of a state trooper and media and frankly the public we are asking for and don't need information that would jeopardize a criminal case however this exemption is value gets broad and could be widely applied to shield information from the public section three of the bill includes another overly broad exemption ensuring public records government agency documents from the public it would exclude communication between a public servant and legal counsel of an agency including memos or documents prepared. We I think we all can acknowledge that this could be broadly applied to a wide range of public agent agency working documents and frankly could be easily abused. While we believe the overwhelming majority of our public servants acting good faith. And wouldn't do so. A quick way to invade Fauria for any government document would be to have the agency counsel review give advice on or prepare a document. He goes even further to apply to deliberate process records where opinions are expressed policies are formulated and again that's arguably applied income virtually be applied to all agency records this bill goes on to impact process for paying for a receiving records and this adds an undue burden on citizens and the media and their access to public information in a timely and affordable manner. Government at every level operates best in sunshine. As media it's our role to help provide. That sunshine and this bill keeps us from doing so I appreciate the time glad to answer any questions and questions from committee members saying that Mister appreciate each time you testimony today signed up to speak against the bill is being prevent keep. Hi yes thank you for your time yes you should have committed recognized the testimony thank you my name is dean prevents him is just a news director K. RK and fox sixteen I have also had the privilege of working under I think all but was it Hawaii's FOR law that to Mr Ray talked about having a better if a lot a lot of love in Arkansas they aren't I have worked in. Texas Oklahoma Kansas Missouri Louisiana all of those states I don't want to release information all of those states also have a current political official under investigation by a government agency. We don't right now in Arkansas. That's what an open transparent government allows from. The community's perspective allows them to gauge and judge what are lectins leaders do and how that government works so that we can be informed and have valuable conversation about it you will look at two striking differences look at you've all the and look at Nashville. Give all the taxes they didn't want to release the the School cameras of the investigations. Families went months not knowing what happened to their kids. In two days in Nashville we knew. What better if it were your kids would you want to know. Can those families and you've all the pay an attorney to go fight form now. They need big pricey lawyers to go up against all the state government agency there in their. So if you want to spend more than eight hours to find a document okay. So I'm paying for anyways. Right do we have any overtime budget for for you right now. Is there any agency in the state that has filed or you spent over time one point. I'm not aware of if there is. But yet it takes all this time and energy to pull something up off of the computer. When is that clock start by the way does it start on. Reception. Of the request the end of the request. The moment they start to look for documents. But in my mind the minute I get the request was was when my clock Sturch I've spent three and a half years in Arkansas covering everything in this state. L. to build launch the working for you investigative team at Little Rock K. R. came fact sixteen. We have removed a district judge because he wasn't being nice to his. what what what the the defendants in court. They will be in route. Asked a little lady if she was death we'll never know now without for you. What a never been able to get that information in fact we change laws and now the the the state is recording those hearings so that we can have access to them. Hello guys. Paying money Heiden didn't get the job done. Thank you president. Any questions from committee members say none thank you for your testimony signed up next speak up against the bill is Wesley brown. Mr brown. everybody okay thank you Sir signed up to speak for the bill is. Mark Thank you mash. The man. Mark the. Thank you. Okay signed up to speak for the bill is J. Cantrell. Okay we'll just do it by yourself to the committee in you're recognized giving testimony to remind you have five minutes thank you Mr chairman my name is Jay cancer on the share of a Washington County with me I have our staff attorney Sam Martin listen that the sheriff's office I believe is that uh we are stewards of the public's money and stewards of the public's trust in the for you I think the is part of the public trust and having an open and transparent government is a for most of my administration however everyone's here discussing about their oxen the court part of Iraq's getting Gordon so we're here to discuss hours and the it's the part about what we believe is a some of the abuse that's the currently at least takes place at the Austin county sheriff's office of some examples that will bring for you are Agencies or other media outlets that our for profit which I suppose most of more. That the recently for we had a case that we worked and we spent to a large amount of manpower looking over that for the got it prepared for them got it to them and then they said I don't have I a large amount hours and hours and days and they said oh well that's we thought that was a homicide is not on the side the thanks separate for everything so you know we we expect a lot of resources took a lot of people away from jobs that were probably more critical in that to fulfill this our staff attorney is prepared to help us several the. All. Incidents in the things that he'll explain probably better than I can about what to some some of the abuses but that's what we're here for is to talk about those in and hopefully the committee can find a way to address some of that. Good evening my name is Sam Martin I'm a law enforcement legal adviser for the Washington County sheriff's office just some high points on this one of or were fully request starting in two thousand twelve to highlight the issue we had three hundred seventy five request twenty thirteen we had four hundred ninety nine in twenty fourteen to twenty thirteen for ninety nine twenty fourteen six hundred thirty five fast forwarding to two thousand eighteen nineteen we had eight hundred thirty six request that came in costing five fifty three point three five gigabytes of data containing four thousand four hundred forty one files by rough estimate math based on the file so that's over one point seven million doc pages of PDF documents. the high point of the year two thousand eighteen two thousand nineteen two thousand twenty all had over a hundred request two thousand twenty one had over a thousand individual request in over six point three million pages of PDF documents that we request on that one as far as and that's just document size on this one is an example of our manpower issue in two thousand twenty one ACLU submitted a FOIA request to us R. one been fully only when it here they ACT request a grievance petitions and medical questionnaires that are detainees of filled out here to do a specific keyword search and reduction on this one because it came contain medical documentation took him full days of is nine days of this time not on this an approximate sixty three hours of of his time to just complete the reduction I wonder example on that one for a request. we have some other highlights examples of cherry pick some of our large for your request we had four from the ACLU in August of twenty one September twenty one and it was another one on September of two thousand twenty one we had nine thousand seven hundred pages in the first one three thousand one hundred fifty six page in the second one and a few hundred and third one and fourth one we had one political advocate request make for individual for your question that one they count constitute over a hundred megabytes of data several thousand pages of documents they recently as sheriff was talking about we had a media request someone of our cases this the documents alone and a man hours on this when it was over seven seventy eight thousand pages of PDF documents that we had to produce on that one. I think that covers most of the summer specific highlights on this one and I don't know if you're if you're anything else that are we should we of well you know we are we are for the full year and we believe that of our documents are public and we want them to be public but of some of these things take aware resources and and so you know I don't know if there's a way to compensate or to regulate or to mitigate some of those what what we think might be abuses but that's certainly our ox that's getting gored at the Austin county sheriff's office thank you Mr chairman I will answer any questions thank you raise questions from committee members. J. nine we appreciate chose testimony here today. Signed up to speak for the bill is jim Hudson. Destruction. You would charges divisive Committee who you represent you're recognized to give you testimony thank chairman Tosh jim Hutson chief of staff Parma commerce hours late warms room the is the one restricted room is pretty warm yeah ready to go just a couple things very quickly just give me a perspective from from the agency's side of things for you is very important the teams that I lied stress to them we're gonna be responsive as quickly as we can it's good customer service we work for the taxpayers and so don't hold back disclose liberally construed for you we do want to make sure we're disclosing documents out there I do want to address the delivery process that has been discussed a little bit here you know for you it doesn't actually demand the delivered if process it demands records you disclose records what happens currently is there's just a lack of production records because everyone understands the implications are for you. That leads to bad policy analysis nothing bad decision making because people are afraid to create a record and so with you having a little bit more flexibility and that would allow us to actually be able to documents on the decision making that is already occurring so that the the delivery process already exists in state agencies it's just a truncated in a poor process this would improve the process let me give you for instance on this. Department commerce were engaging with businesses throughout the state trying to help them grow in the state we have to be very careful about the information that they provide to us because it may be subject to a four year that does not allow for us to really kind of do good analysis in terms of policy to determine what parts of the state or growing more parts of the state or not growing in terms of the economy this will help us to be able to make better decisions there was uh I think a comment earlier about proprietary information one of the things that Arkansas struggles right now as we lag in terms of venture capital we do not see the same level of investment terms of venture capital in Arkansas as we see in surrounding states so if we're having a conversation with a business that's a start up you know they're gonna be reluctant to give us their proprietary information unless they know it's going to be protected I cannot give them and in the A. saying we're not going to school so because the state statute will compel disclosure so the end of doing Senate holding back quite a bit this would give us more protection to be able to have a conversation the business about what their needs are and how we can potentially meet those needs now we come to a place where we as a department identify a funding mechanism to be able to support that business and we take taxpayer money and we you know provided to that business that is absolutely a public document for transparency when ever we're spending the taxpayers money firmly believe in that but the process of gathering the data and analyze the data the reasonable protection on that that's why the proprietary exemptions can be very helpful to us if it passes and with that I'll take any questions. Any questions from committee. Seeing them thank you so much for your money committee to. Next we have Jeff Rosen. Okay. Speaking against the bill yes Jett Rosenzweig I'm a lawyer here in Little Rock I'm hearing appearing on behalf of the Arkansas association of criminal defense lawyers some of the previous witnesses have hit on this but I need to point out this will give could give carte Blanche to a law enforcement agency to did to who are deny any request no matter how simple we're not talking about eight hundred thousand pages we're talking about one page two pages that type of thing of undisclosed has always been in the law on going although not the law currently there's the Supreme Court is sort of written in the law in their number of cases dealing with and and a lot of controversy about what is on going with this creates yet another category called any evidence or material likely to be used by law enforcement in a criminal prosecution what sort of criminal prosecution where when and what time of and further more Furthermore. The law enforcement does it do prosecution the prosecuting attorney does prosecution and the statutes in a lot of places the state Arkansas statutes distinguish between law enforcement and the prosecuting attorney and so they're gonna vacancy you know select secret on anything let me give you an example let's say I represent someone here in Little Rock and he's tells me he's falsely accused of a false accuser has made similar accusations against the number of people in Helena. And so I go to Helena and file for your and I am denied that because well it's possible that that Helena prosecutor may may want to look at it and I can't get that information why is that important because the Arkansas Supreme Court has said that the attorney has an obligation as a professional obligation mandated to do his own investigation this is part of the mandated investigation we are required to do the gentleman from the attorney general's office said well you know they trying to to Goal are not to use the discovery process well as Mr Corbett said sometimes the discovery process takes a long time and sometimes when you try to use the discovery process of the judge will say this is a fishing expedition give me some information so it's just not a broad investigation that's what the attorney's investigation does and using for you have to do it so we can go to the judge and get an order under one of the other rules of criminal procedure to proceed further so this is this will essentially negate for your with regard to law enforcement agencies if it's passed in its current form. Any questions from committee. Thank you so much for your testimony thank you and Michael has. Michael heavy speak for. We identify yourself for the record and then you can testify yes Sir Mr thank you my name is Michael Hary and general counsel for the US secretary state. And generally we are wholeheartedly for transparency in government that's not been a question with our office however there is a provision in this bill that we are for that's dealing with the student proprietary information giving an example under reason why when we set out or give notice of the request for a proposal or qualifications to a vendor most recently say the campaign finance reporting system. They'll send their responses to us in in those responses they'll have all of their trade secret proprietary information we ask that they submit a redacted version to us that redact that information out so that we can give that out because we notify them that they are subject to for it once they submit that to us. Because the current exemption allows for protection of documents that would give an advantage to a competitor we're better so if we get requests for that and then we'll we'll send out the redacted version however if the individual is not a competitor or better that exemption does not apply therefore they are then entitled to a fully unredacted version of the response which includes all of your trade secrets and proprietary information it's a simple easy workaround I do not think that was the intent that's how it was originally written. So that's why we are in support of this bill and I'll take any questions. Are there any questions from committee. CNN thank you so much Mister for you thank you for testimony. Thanks to have John Wilkerson to speak for Wilkerson. Are you here thank you but will we will identify yourself for the record and you may go on with your testimony thank you Sir a committee a John Wilkerson general counsel the Arkansas Municipal League of course let remit has come up here we understand appreciate the need for transparency and I don't believe this bill eliminates that transparency that's already required by the FY Mr Ousley cities we we training yearly if more often than that for cities and towns on the FLA and I've talked represent right about this bill briefly tell yesterday but I the way I look at this bills is simply an attempt to find a balance between transparency and the need to keep government functioning properly and it's that continue on that was talked about earlier I think this is a way to try to find that that place the continuance is just a few quick stories that I've heard from cities and been part of from cities to try to illustrate some of the issues that we're dealing with but I think this bill especially the ten day rule really dresses we get cities again city particular is emailed or FOR for every email that the mayor city council sent for last five years to get that done in three days of course is impossible the ten days would help with that we've seen instances of day is simply days before Christmas where people are off work already being applied for requests that require multiple CD's multiple video tapes to their video cities to be rat represent recreated I'm going through files redact the hundreds if not thousands of thousands of pages to be redacted that short amount time requiring people to come back from from there otherwise scheduled time off to help to help deal with this that that request I repeated that route requested have come in and. And documents having created set inboxes an invoice is there for a person to come pay the invoice and pick up the documents that just sit there and then get FOR for the same documents over and over and over and when no one ever paying the the invoice I think I think a lot of this this bill again like I said helps try to find that better balance between the eight between government functioning properly and efficiently and the need for transparency and and Mike president ram believes that it is that continue on that we're trying to find that that that sweet spot the FY was not meant in my opinion my belief to shut down government and I think this bill try to help tries to help make sure that that full I cannot be used to it to shut down government so with that that's all I say thank you any questions from committee members. Saying none thank for testimony. Signed up to speak against the bill is neither male. If you would in violation of committing you're recognized bacon's bill thank you Mr chairman members committee my name is Nate bill I'm here today representing common ground Arkansas and in speaking against the bill I I'd I'd like to start with a metaphor and I'm gonna do my very best to be extremely brief here. Most of the guns that are present in Arkansas. Are not misused most of us use them to hunt we use them for target shooting we use them for home defense we don't misuse them. We pass laws to punish those who abuse those firearms. You see just because of our freedom is abused by a few does not mean we should restrict that right from everyone else it means that we should focus on those who abuse that right and make sure that they are held accountable for abusing it. Virtually everything that's requested under FOIA is because someone suspicious of something that's happening in government. Ultimately a lot of it is results in becoming parts of investigations. In fact when someone is submitting a FOIA it is a citizen conducting an investigation on their own. When I served we used for you to look into state agencies when they would stone walls. A few member former members of this body were prosecuted successfully as a result of some things that began with for your request. Democracy dies in darkness sun lights the best disinfectant. I want to close with this our state motto as regnant populace. The people rule. This bill is literally telling the people that their business is not their business. It's saying. Government wants their job to be easier and we want to make it harder on the individual citizen to conduct their. Oversight of government and governmental operations. The state has vast resources at his disposal. If a citizen sends a for a request I I heard jim Attorney General's office say during the initial presentation happened numerous times that well they can just to. Well no the ordinary citizen can't just sue for remedy they don't have the funds and the resources available to do that the Attorney General office can do that the ordinary citizen can't. There's no balance here. At the end of the day I I just ask you to remember this this Bills antithetical to our state motto it makes it harder on the little guy any easier on government the clear intent here is to restrict availability of information to the centers. Again some lights the best in fact the best disinfectant I appreciate your time Mister chair I appreciate to to the committee and with that I'd be happy to take any questions anyone has any questions from committee members say none thank Sir we appreciate you being here Senate Mr members committee. Signed up to speak for the bill is they James. Change the world service device have committee who you represent you're recognized to Speaking for the bill yes Sir thank you thank you for allowing me to be here this evening and thank you guys for putting up with us for so long. I'll be as brief as as I can be I'm del James on the county judge a vendor and county and we've heard a lot of good honest and legitimate reasons as to why for you should be one hundred percent open and I agree with those all legitimate purposes for for a a should be honored and we should honor them and we should give that information openly and as quickly as possible in our offices really should be made out of glass if you want information you should be able to get it But there is a negative side to two four year as well I'm going to yield some of my time to a fire department that is within my County. And the fire department is going to talk to you today because as a favor to me they did not disband due to some harassing and. Overwhelming instances of for your requests at the hopes that something might happen down here that would help them help protect them. We have it within Van Buren County a small city Fairfield Bay is retirement community it's the kind of community on the lake that everyone loves they want to come and swim and boat and recreational and all types of different manners and enjoy god's gift to us. Occasionally accidents happen especially on the lake. In the mayor had a team of three we M. which is office of emergency management people who are fully trained who had worked in various aspects of we had come to repair fill bay to retire and they volunteer their time. Due to the harassing in the inundation of. Hi there harassing for is we lost the OEM staff they step down. That doesn't serve the people that doesn't serve the taxpayers. I truly agree with most of the instances that have been brought out today absolutely for you should exist no one here wants to eliminate Fauria we love sunshine sunshine is a great disinfectant. It's when that sunshine become son barn that we need to we need to say that. Is just like when free speech becomes hate speech there is a time when we have to make a decision that. We've got to do something. And with that I appreciate your time thanks question members say none thank you for your testimony signed up to speak for the bill is not a hobby. If you would just. I would value set up to the committee and you're recognized to speak for the bill. Thank you Mr chairman. I'm done the the purpose of a fire chief. And I'm here to talk about. Speak in favor of the house bill seventeen twenty six we're volunteer fire department. And we work with vendor County and. Cleburne County we provide fire medical. And Emergency Management Services. Well I dropped part time salary all others members are. Unpaid volunteers who serve their community. Unselfishly. Over seventeen months for two thousand twenty one to two thousand twenty three received a hundred forty four. For your request ninety nine percent more from one person who had an axe to grind. With the city administration at that time. We answered all them consuming and many hours of the city clerk's offices many hours of. Our people on the fire department. We you know we answered everyone of. Forty nine request as for the fire department roster and other documents me the same as requested a week ago. Ninety five a question from the general fund and financial information regarding regarding the. Fire department activities again many times for the same documents repeatedly. Some documents did not exist. Yeah we were asked repeatedly time had to be taken to reject phone email information from the Department read roster. All documents had to be put to produce and the requestor in the foil file causing a great deal of copy work. We're unable to charge the actual cost for the number of copies and the labor for those copies. All the yeah all the information was provided could have been provided by a phone call. Or. A call the officer called me. We need to do the voice. Those are the tangible impact here's a Russell story the impact on volunteer were I was serious personnel was reluctant to meet and communicate with each other in. To the city hall. In writing. Whatever was written was horrible. Personal folder open season if a volunteer communicated with any department and see business my phone was Boyd twice. Volunteers begin to question their value whatever. When weighed against the cost of four years. As well as the company barrage of vile social media posts. Some members retired early or just resign. Toward the end of two thousand twenty to the city for a request for the names and contact information of members of the extremely successful search team an OEM. They. That's when they'll quit they didn't want that to happen so they just said we're done we don't have to do that. they were all also employees is a private organization but they work for the city. When they were confronted with employer to provide the information of the same set of people who were part of the city and the fire department they quit we lost a valuable asset that helped out the whole community. We regularly support the concept of transparency in city government operations we support and the concept of the FOIA. And we encourage the state to take action to limit the use of or is. Concept of the tool for rendered harassment this is definitely have. Organizations or officials the hard costs are significant significant the redirection of able time for volunteers also significant. And the impact on the morale of alter spirit is truly a problem thank you very much today you have any questions thank you any questions from committee members. Seven nine we appreciate child's favorite time before the committee. Okay next on the agenda to speak for the bill is director of state police colonel my cater. Can you Mr chairman. There's my care Director of Arkansas state police secretary department public safety. He vehicle sign at two percent per common public safety you're recognized to speak to the bill. Thank you Sir. Has been stated repeatedly we believe in transparency and the spirit of Ethel but want to address the reality of what is to come in regards to DPS and despite specifically to the Arkansas state police. Percentage of resin and this is created a for profit opportunity for social media vendors as a result we've had to assign three full time employees to include one attorney and to staff members to support the financial gain of these vendors just one such vendor currently has four point four million subscribers for generating a total amount of revenue for these vendors this created a significant drain on our resources funded by our tax paying citizens. Secondly this creates a disservice to the defendants in cases that have not been adjudicated. One recent pursuit had twenty four thousand views and just two days after being released before you to put that in perspective the agency has five days. To submit to parents or to review and submit the package through the chain of command because of the time necessary to compile and review the documents and to make administrative recommendations if the defendant or my son or family member I want them to have their day in court prior to this being put on the platform for the public to see. Lastly because we believe in transparency and we're concerned that the current abuse the for you due to its broad application it hinders us from satisfying for request and timely manner as it relates to its intended purpose originally. With that I yield to Mr Finkelstein. Questions thank you there are some really good questions asked and and genuine German behind me asked is it fair to have an attorney client privilege for attorneys were paid by tax taxpayers money and I thought you know that was a good question to the hours I remember that public defenders are paid by taxpayer money and they absolutely have been our entitled to the attorney client privilege before I was chief of staff I was chief legal counsel and we impose a lien of we get sued a lot at at DPS and SP and we have to have very Frank conversations about what to do with these lawsuits if we can settle how much we can settle for all of that is affordable our whole strategy we have what we can what we can do with these cases is also subject to a disclosure and and it should be protected and with that I will I will yield. Questions from committee members. Seeing none we appreciate your time before the committee today thank you for testimony signed up to speak against the bill is sunny Abbado. Thank you Mr chairman I'm Sonny Alvarado I am here speaking on behalf. Of the Arkansas freedom of information act coalition which is a private group composed of print broadcast and online journalists lawyers private citizens in some public officials all of whom support open government and seek to preserve and protect the public's right to know. as provided by the Arkansas FOR a. Everyone who's testified today has pretty much said what I had intended to say so I'm just going to leave you with this thought. I don't think a single person who spoke for this bill. Was a private citizen they all represented specific interests. Of public agencies. I think. The voice of the citizens should be heard. My only. Addition on this bill is that it deserves further study. It deserves. For all of the stakeholders involved the public agencies citizens to be able to hear and discuss the things that were discussed today and address specific problems with the FO I a not a blanket exemption. As this bill does I appreciate your time. Thanks Sir any questions from committee members. J. nine B. projects testimony. The fact that speak against bills Paul Gover. I would just urge name to the committee and You're recognized to speak against the bill thank you Committee mass Paul Calvert I appreciate your time I know it's getting late there's only really only one issue I'd like to address on this and that is the attorney client privilege for government officials and so the I guess who is the representative for the public. Safety commission or a camera with this was agency was he was making the point that yes that That public defenders are tax funded. But their clients are not on the clock their clients are individuals who are being prosecuted sometimes mistakenly prosecuted and. this is a a a service provided by the state. To help them exercise the right to an attorney. And again they're not the the clients themselves out of the clock when a state trooper is receiving Council. This taxpayer funded districts is trooper himself will more than likely be on the clock during that council period so there's a difference there he's he's acting in his official duties or as the person is being prosecuted and receiving back to the public defender. It's not o'clock they're they're actually. And it will probably losing time at work they might literally be in jail while they're being held awaiting trial and so they may be losing all of their assets because they can't pay their bills whatever maybe there's there's quite a difference between upload public defender and having that attorney client privilege. Versus a government employee and having that attorney client privilege. Once a government employee. Every bit of that communication is tax funded from what I can tell because the employee is on the clock and then the attorney is on the clock as well and so we're we're paying for every bit of that That's all I wanna say about that issue the other issue is I want to offer solution to some of these problems I am I am sympathetic to the issue of people weaponizing the foil laws and just basically brutalize in some of these agencies with just tons and tons of a request. My solution is to that let's go ahead and do kind of like what they've done the circuit clerk's office used to if you need to find a record for real estate record could drive down to the clerk's office and they have to dig through all the files need find that record for you and you may be copied on a copy machine or something today in what we can do we can pull up our computer look up those records any time I want to we can if we won't look up a thousand different properties we can and to spend their own time and doesn't inconvenience the public official at all and that that's a that's a solution that's that's a solution to this these are public records make them available to us make it a habit automatically redact everything that need to be redacted and publish it but on the internet it's cheap now and it needs to be gone I need to go on the record for for everybody to have access to and it will solve this problem yeah you'll probably have to hire some people to do that but when you do it on a regular basis it becomes a lot more efficient and streamlined and you may actually spend less time doing it if you just go ahead and do all. Thank you. Thank you Sir any questions from committee members. Say no we appreciate your testimony before the committee is there anyone else that I failed to call you name it but overlooked you ever signed up to speak for against the bill that's the last one I had on my list. Seeing none representative right. Committee thank you so much for your time and attention to this today I know the hours getting late and would listen to a lot of testimony I do have a few things I want to say as we wrap up I appreciate everyone who came here today to debate and offer input on this You know it this is been interesting the Bill because many of the people who came to testify against it are actually friends of mine so that was a little that's a little bit odd but some of the. Some of the testimony that you heard today. Was just histrionics. And I'm not gonna try to compete with some of the exaggerated behavior just designed to elicit attention. The idea that this bill somehow kills FOR yes. It's just patently false that's not true. if you remember back to the beginning of my presentation I opened talking about the continue on between the black the black the black box and the fishbowl and the thousand points on the continuum that exist between their. What we're debating is just where individual aspects. Of records ought to fall on that continuum. No one is this bill does not say that government will be about black box this closed to citizens that is just simply not the case. it was said that this bill eliminates Boyega for cities and counties and I just want to correct that because that is that is patently false it's inaccurate and I'm just gonna walk you through the bill if you anyone still has that concern so if you go to section three or we talk about attorney client privilege the terms here that are used gov online twenty six page two governmental agency line twenty four public servant these are these are terms which on the first page in the definitional section apply to the state those apply only to the state the attorney client privilege exemption only applies to the state. same for the delivery process exemption on page three. Line for uses that term governmental agency which is defined as the state back on page one. Other provisions apply throughout Fauria like the the time extension on the response that the response time. So I just want to point that out. The definite the four U. definition. In twenty five nineteen one oh three or defines what is included under four yeah. This bill does not change that definition at all that includes quote agency of the state or any political subdivision including municipalities and counties board of education Xcerra. as you heard from the presentation From the office of the Attorney General these changes that are being proposed are not foreign or novel. They are changes that exist throughout the throughout the states in states across the country and for you laws across the country. Including a conservative states. the reason that we're proposing the changes are to benefit the public to conserve tax dollars to improve efficiency in delivering basic services like public safety like fire protection like you heard about and to ensure we have rule of law. That is why this bill is supported by the governor that's why this bill supported by the Attorney General and the secretary of state and virtually unanimously by Los law by law enforcement from state police to sheriffs association. Two chiefs of police. I appreciate a good vote I'm close for the bill. Committee members representative ray has close with the bill I have a motion. Representative mailing. Representative. Bentley has made a motion of. Just a minute. It made a motion of do a motion of do pass is any discussion on the motion. Represent for mac you're recognized for discussion on the motion thank you Mr I'm I'm just going to dress a few things that I picked up in and testimony nothing it was actually a black and white in the bill just some notes I jotted as all this testimony was going on literally everybody that testified in favor of this bill stance potentially benefit from from keeping sunshine out of ten and officer earlier that very early in testimony and I didn't catch his name but but in the uniform you know made a comment about people having skin in the game that was a little. The little out there I thank everybody that files a for your bill I mean a for your request has skin in the game through taxes they're providing his income through their time for their effort I thought that was a little outline personally We've heard about if these agencies have to spend time and money doing things which which are all tax dollars by the way that's okay he some things are worth paying for we use tax dollars all the time there are things worth paying for so if it costs some money to help shine the slot I think that's totally appropriate. Mr Hudson said that people sometimes are afraid in these agencies to generate records. Well you know that shows me that it's it's more important that we have quick access to the records that do exist if there are things that we know may not be being documented it makes the things that are documented for more important. in and everybody that served in this body I think understands we're not experts and everything there are things you know we have areas of expertise that we understand these issues inside and out but we deal with the vast majority of the things we deal with we're not experts in we have literally have the the man that wrote the book on for you sitting in the room and they unanimously tell us this is a bad bill I thank I think we should listen to those people I will be a no on this bill and I hope and pray that everybody else on committee is thank you. Well my expose on most representative Crawford you're recognized speak on the motion. Thank you Mr chair. What an evening. What I would say is less work to find a balance abuses happening we heard it that needs to stop. But let's find the right sunscreen for the sun burn. Let's not get rid of the sun. And so I say that because. The people matter you guys were here because the people brought us here. And what I would like to see happen. Is this going interim study. That we work really hard to get rid of the abuses there's gotta be a way. I'm not the expert don't claim to be but there are people here who are let's find a way to work together. So that the fire for the volunteer fire departments don't have to go through what they went there that should be illegal. But there's a way I truly believe. It in the United States of America in the great state of Arkansas we can find something where we can work together and for that I'll be voting no. The representative Crawford has spoken on motion. Any further discussion on the motion. Saying that I have a motion of no pass all in favor say aye. All opposed say no no. Representative Meeks. Representative Meeks. Representative gene. Representative Jean No representative Wardlaw. Representative Wardlaw. Representative Miller. Representative Miller. Representative Womack. Representative Womack No representative Bentley representive Bentley yes representative Gonzalez. Representative Gonzales now. Representative back. Representive Beck yes representative Richmond. Representative Richmond No representative Gazaway. Representative Gazaway. Representive Crawford. Representive Crawford No representative Scott. Representative Scott No representative Clowney. Representive County now. It It million. Representative Milligan. Representive Carter yes representive card yes representive Underwood yes representive Underwood yes representative very. Representive berry yes representative more. Representative more No representative McElroy no representa McElroy no. Representative will. All right thank you committee for your time and attention created by. Committee members. We have another special order. The representative Bentley. Committee member Landau representative Bentley's got were fixed as distribute that then we'll get into the bill. Next item on today's agenda be house bill sixteen ten it's by special order representative Bentley. If you're recognized to present house bill sixteen ten. Thank you colleagues you know we we debated this bill for three hours last before went on spring break at the end of that I have some colleagues that asked me to go and visit with the for task force which I did I met with them I twice since we went on spring break and at the end of the session I guess Two three members **** we could come to a compromise that secular bring before you guys today this bill is amended as a compromise from what I had before if you remember I had a quorum of if you look at the handout that I just gave to you guys in forty seven states across the nation we have the definition of a public meeting is a quorum of a majority of and so the original bill that brought to match what those forty seven other states do and compromise are brought back to you and if you look at the amended bill says more than one third of the members of the governing body will constitute a public meeting so that is a compromise from what I brought to you guys before I just think it's a tragedy that we don't allow our state she's me our city or county elected officials to have the liberties that we do to college either on the phone so it but this bill simply do allow JP has a question about an ordinance that another JP pass pick up the phone and call them I think she begins a law for the JP to pick up the phone to talk to another J. P. on the phone to allow them to visit this like you and I do every day whether in session whether out of session we talked to each other but things in our districts things that are going on in our counties and I know that We can have good government that's what this is about is producing good government I think that too many people think there was a like to do is we could enable one trying to a dark things around the corner since so many posts about we'll get an evil things that that are going to occur but we've got good people there like to just like you and I have been so we have people that have been on duly elected by our constituents and I believe the best fifty seven years their hands have been tied to have an imbalance of power with the county judge in the mayor's and those come visit but are just R. J. peace cannot in our city council members cannot and so it's really been an inefficient and ineffective an imbalance of power that we've had that's what I'm trying to correct with a a an amended bill with some compromise and I just really think we uh need good government women are considered to be a fully represented by those that been duly elected by them to do good things in the county just like we do here in the state I think we've done a great job the session I'm proud of the what what the work that we've done and I wanted things to happen our county is not gonna remind you guys what happened in my district were is two years for the JP's to be able to fix and assess the situation a very serious situation because they could not talk and communicate thank you and I do all the time of I want to talk about school board members for just a minute school board members are not paid on the pretty much volunteers unfortunately many of them get sued because I talked to another member submit thanks for talking to another member by some as the end of getting sued by the folks we have people drop out we have some parts or say they can get somebody run for school board it's a free press is a non paid position they're being student who wants to go to the House the what they have to go through a school board members of in my eyes we need good we need good people running for office or set up some hurdles that are keeping good people from one to be in public office because they're arrested for talking to a friend of their neighbor the ballgame whatever to being sued left and right it's just not necessary what's going on so to me this is a simple process I have people tell me all the time this is being already violated well then don't do that are not be allowed to talk was good people there doing good things for concessions and I think that this will allow for good government it'll African. This is to be represented better for those J. peace to do like you and I do every day we talk to each other make good things happen for constituents and that's the heart of my bill I want those J. peace in the school board members to be able to do as well for their constituents like you an ID again as simple one third of the governing body can meet with that being a public meeting and again if you look at the handout that I sent to you forty seven other states required form of a majority of right to be a public meeting so we're again we're again stricter than forty seven of the states across the nation and with that I'll take any questions if you guys have about the amended bill. Asian from committee members. Say none we have a eighteen eighteen people signed up to speak for or against the bill represents Richmond you have a question yes Mr I'd like to make a motion let me hear your motion hi I make a motion that we limit the bait to fifteen minutes both sides limit testimony yes testimony that is a that's a proper motion it's not debate. This is non debatable let me question. Each side. Thirty minutes total. Okay. That thirty minutes for each side fifteen for those for fifteen for those against the correct. That is correct okay it is not that is. That is proper motion non debatable all in favor say aye. All opposed say no. Okay the bill or the motion has passed it shall be limited to fifteen minutes so first on the speak against the bill is Jimmy Gavin. Two seventy seven people signed up for against the bill you'll have a total a lot of fifteen minutes total yes Sir yes I'm trying to be as brief as I can. Of. With the amendment we now have a new legal questions. With the bodies of thirteen like my quorum court that would mean for in one third members could meet. If you have a body ten that's three and one third member. If you have a body of eight that's two and two thirds members. Body is seven two and one third. But if I have this is where it gets enraged body of five. One and two thirds. Body of four one in one third. Not only is that crazy math but what do you tell the bodies of five and three. One other bodies you have multiple people who may now the bodies of five you say okay but you're out. Now. What this amendment doesn't do is address that math. Can you round up you round down what do you do a two thirds of the members what do you do with one third of the member. The amendment gives us nothing on that no clarification. Misspent misspent was member of Amendment also seeks to cure problem that does not exist. That there is a ballot there is no balance of power between city council school board school boards in between mayors county judges superintendents. The mayors judges and superintendents she's it contents have all the power in that just doesn't that doesn't fly in the face of title fourteen entitle six which I have if anybody wants to read. I did rate on the merits and county judges have zero power over councils in quorum court members they are separate branches as far superintendents the board hires and fires them. So you do the math on that. Let me tell you why this member elects to create imbalance of power it must come with school board is made up of conservatives now and maybe there's election into two levels are elected then this law will allow conservative members to meet in secret and create policy or deal with any issues show up to the public mood meeting and and at present and voting on things without ever league leading the two liberals give input. Contrast that with the little rock school board. Who could now do the same with the conservative members. But take political parties out of it majority alliances can be formed for whatever reason and lead the minority of those governing body members completely out of the process we all remember how obamacare was created right every bit of it behind closed doors posi said that we have to wait to pass it so we could see what's in it that's exactly what this amendment will allow these bodies to do on every issue does that sound conservative to you. Quorum court member Andy shot from fall river county well no I would not abuse this know what I think in my colleagues would I couldn't be sure there are others in the state that wouldn't so I oppose it I can see her reasoning but I could also see how it could be abused justice of the peace Jason line thank you for reaching out on this W. submitted I'm very much against H. B. one six sixteen ten as it will lead to expanded issues with deals being done behind closed doors. Justice of the peace Johnny tower not okay with that again I love miss Bentley but I'm a citizen first I love that someone said again I am a citizen first I want our elected leaders to have to say what they need to say in public besides I enjoy it more when we talk business and from the public because of the feedback sending web account Conway city council member against it David Grimes city city of Calgary council member against it those are the very people that we're talking about I would I would also say they go back to do you represent who we represent. It's our freedom and right to hear it is guaranteed in the act and I want to ask questions of this body or anybody. Please tell me what is conservative about this I've asked this question to legislators Sanders representatives in please tell me what's conservative about this bill when you apply it to the intent of the law and thank you with that I'll take any questions. Stop timer of any questions from committee members say none. Signed up to speak up against the bill okay. For the a much time is left for against the bill. I have ten minutes left speak against the bill if you have an use five minutes. Showdowns Coggins. Skudai remind you have ten minutes and. Twenty five seconds left and you still several of the people signed up to speak for against the bill thank you Mr chairman talk fast hopefully we can listen fast sixty two years old group and Truman Arkansas I can remember saying or companies to run the city of Truman and basically this law says greater than one thirds that means up to one third inclusive people could meet three of those say of nine people three committed to Pizza Hut at same time three could meet at McDonald's and the other three may somewhere else while the other swap up in later only somewhere else at a different rate so they have just held a meeting. In secret and that's exactly what they is doing Trumann Arkansas and that's all I got. Thank you Mr president stop clock any questions from committee members saying done. Signed up to speak against bill Roger kid Roger. Nine minutes forty nine seconds lesser Roger care Jones were Arkansas Lovelace miss Mary Bentley. I'm real brief here I've got thirteen J. peace. So this would mean four point something good meeting privately. We'll right now most all the time nothing is discussed in my quorum court meeting most everything is read off and voted on immediately this means this amendment is already happening. It's already happening. So we are enforcing what we have now. Now I want to say this and Joe almost say one more thing I kind of I'm I'm involved in several groups and some of you know Mister chair around my area and this will create chaos and resentment against you good people here it is that I know and I don't want that and one more statement one more statement. What did Jesus say. A quorum was. What did you say he said when there's two or three. I'm present. So for me that's the definition of a quorum I thank you all for your time this laid up and ready to go on for three hours. Question okay stop timer of. Signed up to speak against the bill is. Lord justice. This gesture still here shall leave Scott gray. L. as in gray. This great state thank god eight minutes and thirty seconds yes Sir Roger was pretty fast my name is Allison gray and I strongly oppose H. B. sixteen ten four year brings light to the darkness within government without for concerned citizens would be clueless about what's truly going on in their government. This bill allows less than a third of a quorum court city council or school board to me in Speaker. This one badly result in secret meetings where deals are cut behind closed doors. It would be relatively easy to have a go between among groups of members Chief Justice across what should be spoken about in front of we the people and what they decide to hide from us. With these decisions being made in France behind closed doors government become opaque although secret meetings might already be taking place why legalize it and therefore encourage the practice thank you for my time I thank you all for staying here thank you. Signed up to speak against the bill is my motives. You have a. Seven minutes thirty nine seconds thank you Mr chair my name's Mike may toast I am speaking with so thank you Mr chairman and the committee I know it's late and I will try to be very brief my name is Mike may toast I'm here in my own capacity but I do serve as a city council member in the great city of the loan yeah and I oppose this bill and I've heard a lot of rhetoric there's a lot of things I can't get into because my time is limited but I've heard a lot of rhetoric that this is the same this would provide the same liberties to the local level government that you all are provided a state representatives and as our senators are provided and I think that's an apples to oranges comparison up here as you all can see we just spent four hours on one bill that failed it never made it to the floor if it would have made it to the floor there would have been a whole of maybe two or three other committees would have to go through and so that's not the way it works on the city government level and ninety nine percent of the time there is a resolution or ordinance that usually brought forth by the mayor or the judge it's brought to us there's very little to any discussion at all and it's pastorates failed within moments or minutes it's far it's talking with one another I can talk to all of the city council members I want to talk to about any type of business we just need to do it in front of the people and the questions that I would ask everybody is what is so important and so secretive that the business that I was elected to do is not done before the people and you know here's the thing what what this will provide is a body of my size I have six members on my committee are on my council it will it would allow two people. All to get together over here on the site I tend to be an opposing voice okay so I'll just use myself as an example but two people over here could meet privately they know might not going to be for this they can hash out all the details and then two other people can meet have shot all the details Mike's never brought into the loop the public's never brought into the loop and then we get to before the public somebody could make a motion to limit debate the appointed the opposing voice never gets to speak it doesn't work the same on the local level as it does on the On the state level it's just a different type of government and so I do have a solution if we need to and I and also heard about the mayors and the and the judges powers in the balance of powers I think I have a solution to that I don't think one third is a solution because we have a municipality in Holland Arkansas that has three council members how did they get to take advantage of this bill or in our great friends over in mac twenty Arkansas that only has four council members how do you have how does one point thirty three people meet so they wouldn't be able to take advantage of this my my suggestion to this would be if it's important for us to follow the other forty seven states if it's important to limit the judges in the mayor's My suggestion would be amend this bill again take away the words more than a third of the members there have been replaced it with these words two or more members including the chair person that will that will define what constitutes a public meeting it will also balance the power to where the mayor and the and the judges about talking to everybody but you're not getting to talk to everybody in closing I want to share this right here and I'll get out of here I want to share a quote from one of our founding fathers and the man who wrote the declaration of independence president Thomas Jefferson who said whenever the people are well informed. They can be trusted with their own government this. Amendment here. Although I like what's trying to be done. It states it is actually going to take all of the discussion in private and keep it from the discussion from being done in front of the people I highly urge you to vote no thank you. The number of up to speak against the bill is shows a passion. The person I would point out that the. Most the Senator mountain was usual as big you'll have three minutes left okay thank you my name is Joe Pearson I've been a J. P. for six years and I can tell you that in that time the incumbents of half an to conduct business in full public view is far outweighed by the value of conducting that business in full view of the public I have seen on the other hand the problems of private meetings in JP's coming to quorum court meetings already having solidified their position and no public discourse taking place before a vote of oftentimes the deliberation leads to vote can be as important or sometimes even more important in the vote itself I believe it's important for the public to be able to see that process and be able to evaluate it further more public comment will become almost irrelevant if this passes because they'll come ready to vote in. Private citizens that come to speak on on before the body one No Way sway them because they've already made their decisions beforehand in private meetings I would urge you not to do this thank you. Thanks service speak against the bill is Dr Jill as. Yes ma'am not pulled up do you have. Two minutes eleven seconds left. Good evening thank you Mr chairman is Dr Jason day we've the Arkansas center for research in economics at UCLA they opinion I'm going to give to the solely mine I don't want to take too much of your time but I think that the key question here is not all committee members of the public bloody a meeting the key question here is is this public business so even if two members of the public body of meat C. nine to discuss public business then this should be considered a public meeting if three all four members needs but just to disclose their kids soccer game that is not a public business and I should not be considered a public meeting does to the contact of the contacts and the contacts of the discussion is what my purpose so far more explanation on this order for you I have a lot of I could academic references that I come before eight eve anyone is interested in in that over the past few months we've got remarkable occurrences coming up on me since public mittens on all of this occurrences raise concerns about open and accountable government lawmakers do you have a chance during this legislative session to clarify the features of transparency in public meetings not for that complicate the law this bill will fall their complete kit that bill and I it is my recommendation that this bill should not pass. Great job. Thank you ma'am for your testimony. To speak of. Against the bill. His call Watson Mr Watson a Porta John have thirty nine seconds are you still here. Who. When we go to me bill thirty nine seconds. About that time. Follows the do this have. There was no compromise the bill was not taken to the task force after after it was amended yesterday we met in the for you task force and miss Bentley chose not to be there this will allow serial meetings the question I have is there's many other definitions a meeting at which should be included what is a chance meeting at or social gathering a meeting whether a project or program in a district is a meeting and that would have been answered if miss Bentley would have come to the task force and legitimately had a compromise does a body having serial meetings four plus four plus four time that a currency thank you thank you Sir we appreciate it. Signed up to speak for the bill is. Mr strained J. Samuel strain you are. Justice. Hello everybody my name is just the same as I would have to have the the parasite is fifteen minutes in time starts now you're recognized you testimony okay thank you I'm just the peace and district four and Faulkner County and the idea that that that that there's not an imbalance of power as I think it's pretty ridiculous because the judge can talk to any of the J. P.'s any ghost talks to the JP's and the lakes and they come up with whatever ordinances they want and those of us that aren't in the loop and get blindsided by that happens every month. I'm sure it happens at other meetings but course if you get along good with the judge and you like to do things his way and then that's fine you don't need any kind of meeting with anyone else I think the The main thing I I think after listening to all these things just to mention a couple of. Cases where it actually affects you guys because you have J. piece of your own and to give you a couple of examples that we've been trying to for. Ten years I've before I was on the court they've been talking about the need for animal shelters we've had children killed by a animals we've had and we've got all kinds animals all of the county there's a lot of volunteers organizations my own daughter was walking her dog and her dog killed by a stray animal and the only answer that you get from the sheriff is I mean I understand their situation as well take your gun and shoot the dog if you feel threatened you know our shoot the animal whatever it is so we spent four hundred thousand dollars to buy a building that to convert to an animal shelter remodel and they're saying that it's going to cost one point six million to remodel the building so we're looking at two million dollars to get an animal shelter built a whole new bureaucracy and they want to put in place I'm more concerned about just taking care of the vicious animals myself but. But that would one of the animal shelters and Faulkner County that already had a facility when I business a couple weeks ago. And and the J. P. that is in charge of courts and public safety a new member of the quorum court found out about this is and I got a chance to look at it how. She was afraid to call the other JP's just work through the judge's office didn't get a lot of cooperation there the building sold for. It was pretty much ready to go just like modifications is sold for two hundred thousand dollars which I don't know if you subtract the difference I think that's one point to which at one point eight million. So. So it's costing you money has not been over talk because she could call the other JP's we kinda had a special meeting and possibly bought that facility and sold the one we spent four thousand dollars on so it's costing you money I'm You know another private another thing is they've been talking about a jail for a long time it's You know. Two of us can't go down and talk to the talk to the sheriff about and get enter the jail together and you know and and it's a situation where we have the infrastructure committee needs to be there somebody from the porch and public safety committee needs to be there but we can't go together to look at the jail and see what he needs see what the needs are. Because of that because everybody's afraid to do anything together because of forty I think it I think it's under reasonable cannot let at least two of its two people from different committees that are granted going to be involved in making a decision to not be able to go on view the jail another situation is we've got somebody are requesting to add additional links other pipeline it's a city in in Faulkner county or small town access should say that wants to extend their water lines into the county that wouldn't it that would benefit the people in the county you know it would be nice if the Public safety committee person or the far that JP that's in that district and somebody from the infrastructure committee could go and view that project and see if they're really telling us the truth about about what they need the money for we've spent almost. Fifteen eighteen million dollars of the Fauria I'm not for the money the A. R. P. money on projects nobody's ever gone to inspect any of the projects we're just taking the word of the people that say well we need this money to be used to do whatever but but nobody from the court goes because nobody from the court. That really can get together and all I'm really I just feel like we need some relief here eleven it's not a reasonable in my opinion firm for somebody from the infrastructure committee and somebody that you know whatever district whoever is in if we went out there and got of you I am and got a tour of what they're trying to accomplish. You know always had a secret meeting my goodness you know we're we're just trying to get information that we can bring back to the committee meetings and discuss it. In public to give that to give some feedback to the committees and I think that to read more request and I'm that's why I'm supporting this bill I'd be okay with two or three or let you know as long as two people can get together and they'll look at some somebody from the Committee that's involved and somebody from the county or the the district that is represented by that particular need and it's costing you money because we spent a lot of a lot of money on on projects that I've never even been looked at you know so. Thanks merry for what you do. Thank you for your testimony. Saying no one else is signed up to speak for the bill thank concludes testimony at this time represented mainly. You're recognized close with the bill Collins I know it like me you're exhausted and I appreciate you staying to hear this bill I really do I think the JB strangest Rosa but I want to say why we need this we need good an efficient effective local government just like you and I get to talking visit and do good things for constituents a lot of times a piece get to that meeting don't say anything because I have a chance to visit with a person that ran that ordinance if they had a moment to visit with that ordinance the poor the JP that ran it they will become an ask questions would have good dialogue and get things going on in our J. P. meetings just like we do here in to say that public input would not influence others JP's that influences us this is a complete lie would like to hear from constituents and they like to hear from their constituents I want a good job are constituencies just like we've been voted elected to to do a good job finalises an in between long projects so with that colleagues were exhausted and I'm finished. You you have a motion right I have a motion to pass the bill is made a motion to pass any discussion on the motion. Che none all in favor say aye aye All opposed say no. Does any of it the bill is passed. Roll call to exceed two hands. The role of. Representative Meeks. Representative Meeks. Representative gene representative gene yes representative Wardlaw. Representative Wardlaw. Representative Wardlaw yes. Representative Miller. Representative Miller. Representative Womack representative Womack know. Presented Bentley yes representative Bentley yes representative Gonzalez presented Gonzalez yes representative back. Representative back yes representative Richmond. Representative Richmond yes representative Gazaway. Representative Gazaway. Representative Crawford. Representive Crawford No representative Scott. Representative Scott right yes representative Clowney. Representive County. Representative Milligan representative Milligan yes representative card representive card yes representive Underwood representive Underwood yes representative very. Is it a very yes represented more. Representative more yes representative McElroy the representative McElroy now. Graduation representative Bentley bills passed. Committee members next item on today's agenda is house bill sixteen fifty three. He's been waiting a long time and I appreciate his patience representative McKenzie. And try to wrap this up you know it's been a long day and I really appreciate ever everyone being here so representative to be paid you're recognized president house bill. Sixteen fifty three thank you Germantown have five years for five years notify we have an amendment is so And hand out were a. Page now the amendment and the handout. Just a second. The representative you're recognized to present your amendment yes Sir thank you Mr chairman this amendment is relevant to for yet now I'm just getting This amendment it's pretty simple I'm changing a twenty twenty five to a twenty twenty seven leave a cliffhanger for us to discuss the remainder of the bill but this is just an expansion of a of a exemption time time frame. Representative can you just because we do our Amendment yes Sir got a question okay you're recognized thing Mr do we just need more time to allow the Chinese to spy on us as a with the purpose of amendment now the purpose of amendment is to allow for a if the bill passes the opportunity for state agencies and departments to adhere to the law as well as it gets more natural life out of their existing drone fleets. Okay so does it have the effect of allowing the Chinese two more years to sponsor one could say that okay thank you. The but any further questions from committee members. But Peter Wardlaw Jeff motion do pass Pat motion to passion discussion on the motion saying none. All in favor say aye. All opposed say no graduation amendment is passed to you present your house bill as amended thank you chairman Tosh Committee I'll be as brief as I can I do we do have some information I need to impress upon you as is relevant to the substance of the bill understanding the basis for why are bringing this year today so I write I come here today and present HB one six five three Some of you may have familiarity or some background knowledge on drones from a civilian capacity but today I'm here to talk about drugs from a commercial purpose for the use of our state agencies the US John John market is unlike almost all or technology sectors companies based in China dominate more than eighty percent this market a Chinese based manufacturer DJ I alone accounts for approx me seven percent of the market share this particular concerning given DJI's close ties the people public of China in the company's obligation to comply with CCP requests for information under Chinese national security law. In two thousand seventeen the PRC pass the PRC national intelligence law requiring all PRC firms entities to and I quote support assist and cooperate with PRC national intelligence services which creates a legal obligation for those companies to turn over data collected abroad and domestically. this law even requires Piercy firms to create backdoors and other security vulnerabilities in equipment and software sold abroad to the PRC government can easily access that data. Our critical data is at risk data collected by these for many manufacture drones pose a security threat and even when using domestic develop software and they have been found easily manipulated by the Chinese government and other foreign adversaries. Because of these concerns Congress prohibited the US Congress prohibited the U. S. department defense from buying drones manufactured in China in fiscal year twenty twenty during the in the NDA or the national defense authorization act in two thousand twenty three Congress expanded the ban to private companies working with DOD so not only DO D. in all branches of the military but also anyone that contracts are consults with the Department defense. In twenty twenty two with the defense department identified DJ I as a Chinese military company operating in the United States owning only into DJI's role supporting the modernisation goals of the people's Liberation Army additionally in twenty twenty the United States Department of Kong commerce added DJ I to its economic blacklist the entity list four of the companies precipitation China's human rights human rights abuses with Uighurs in the western part of the country. The US treasury department has added DJ I it to the U. S. and investment ban list into the list of Chinese military civil fusion companies despite these restrictions and warnings Chinese manufactured drones like DJ are are often used at state local governments including here in Arkansas that puts privacy and security at risk period full stop. Not like to talk about what this bill does what this bill does initiate initiate a transition period for state and local agencies that after four years as we've amend this bill will prohibit state funds from being used in connection with the operation of drones manufacture symbol or symbol by the covered for an entity in this instance it is China and the federation of Russia. State and local agencies may continue using their existing drone fleet during the two during the four year period while they make the transition to secure non Chinese and Russian based ally made drones. State not local agencies may continue to use their existing drone fleet during this period during that period state local agencies would be prohibited from the person or or acquisition of drones from these civil entities and also from entering into contracts for drone services provided by drug companies of like. The secretary of the department transformation and shared services would we would be able to waive that restriction of the purchase of a covered your own is necessary due to exigencies instances for counter drone research or for criminal investigations the secretary must notify the Arkansas General Assembly when they choose to do that. This puts in place at a state level what is happening at the federal level and be getting having another state's Florida passed its law in twenty twenty one for the Florida Texas California and Tennessee have banned state agencies from using DGI drones by executive action in Tennessee and Texas have introduced legislation this session along with Mississippi California and Washington as well as Hawaii. I'd like to I I I know I'm trying to be brief but I do have an important snippet to to deliver to the committee this is a quotes from Brian Harrell who is a former Assistant Secretary of for infrastructure protection of the US department of homeland security. Citing increased awareness of cyber vulnerabilities associated with DJ products the US army aviation unit instituted a partial grounding of the platforms in August twenty at twenty seventeen in may twenty eighteen again citing cyber security because cyber security concerns the Department offenses but it all procurement of commercial off the shelf drones referencing the two thousand eighteen action in twenty twenty one the DOD reaffirm that position that systems produced by DGI pose potential threats to national security further the fiscal year twenty twenty national defense their NDA Code fight into law provision banning the purchase and use of drones and components manufacturing countries known to be a national security threat the two thousand twenty three NDA proposes a prohibits the DOD and its contractors from using the same track Chinese manufactured surveillance drones the security security concerns and guidance X. extend to the industry as well in may twenty nineteen the cyber security infrastructures security agency issued an alert to industry highlighting this cyber security concerns of Chinese manufacture drones later that year the Department of into your grounded its entire fleet of Chinese manufacture drums citing this same national security concern. In twenty twenty the department of commerce at a DJ I two it's entity list which bans US based companies from exporting technology to companies designated as a national security concern DJ I has subsequently prohibited has been prohibited from trade association events like CVS which is the largest tech annual trade association of an because of his designation on this commerce entity list I could go on I have provided individual members of this committee supplementary reading this is not a conspiracy this is not information of vacuum this is proven our federal government believes that these drones are not suited for use within our branches of the military our department of commerce will not allow fiduciary's and financial institutions from investing or for a leading U. S. companies export their products to the to this manufacture for the purposes of continued manufacturing I'm happy didn't to announce that or to to let you all know that the governor has decided to endorse this bill this is common sense legislation this there is a tail wind behind this movement to secure our state agencies from potential cyber security malfeasance malware and ransomware attacks I'm happy to answer any questions at this time. The questions from committee members represent macro. I understand where you're coming from but this only made in China it It all my information and everything I'm doing right here today and everyone of us has one if they were on the spot on the school could make would be to go in the phone. I don't I don't believe Sam song is on the entity list by the department of commerce I have a TNT and. Thank you very much yeah representative Richmond you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair at have have you gotten any information as far as what the cost. Of this program might be how much is going to cost state agencies over this period of time. I do not have a physical impact at that the end of the day this bill is not a requirement of acquisition is guidelines for purchase and acquisition it at a future date again with the four year exemption window no one is required to to stop their fleet or to ground their fleet they are able to an this might have been important mention in it And the intro but for my research and again I'm not a subject matter expert no that's been talked about a few times tonight but for my research. At a commercial use of the amount of training hours and mission hours that these devices get as well as the main is that there regularly experiencing the natural life on these drones is can be anywhere from eighteen to thirty six months without serious need for maintenance or for repair I believe that that's a reasonable window in the four years accomplishes that so If a agency department if anyone is made in a strategic investment for the purposes of lifesaving missions are mission critical mission critical work they are still able to use that as they look into the future to procure then they would be required and I want to be clear this is not solely for domestic purchase this is just drones originating from those two countries mentioned in the bill so I I don't believe this is a mandate in terms of requiring funding but I'd be happy to look into it I thank you thank you Mr the representative of the class and you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairperson mackenzie I'm sorry if I dismiss this and I may well have. But can you tell me. So it's sort of following up on represented McElroy's question there there are lots of devices drones unmanned aircraft seem to me to fall into a separate category for some reason that I if somebody who knows nothing about this could kind of into it but will you explain a little bit what it is about this particular category of technology that has you particularly concerned. There's a lot of levels of concern and I believe they're probably or they can talk more about the data use of drones within their department or agency but mainly in or if if we're talking about smaller drone aircraft a lot of those interfaces our user experiences are through cellular devices when we download those apps we give away an entire host of permission sets there's there's some analogy out there I don't know if I can make it eloquently tonight about other apps that our state and our and our executive branch of determined as being too vulnerable for our state employees to to download and that once we once those apps gain access there's no stopping what they can collect and in addition to that I mean there's there's all sorts of software that go into devices so for the conversations I've had about this bill specifically a lot of these drones are run for my pads a lot of the data that's collected from them or video imaging is taken from a hard disk and implanted into another device to to download and then to upload into a different software every point of entry and egress with that data is a possible security risk. Any further questions from committee members. Seeing none representative promote well we got the four five people sideboard paper signed up to speak against bill first speak against it is. Jason Massey. You were just by yourself and the who you represent. And you're recognized to The testimony against the bill. I'm sure Jason massive Logan County. I'm sure Brad Snyder Greene County. And that one of the main reason I want to come just to let you know what we do with drones and how we use in the law which is a product that we use a sheriff of a small county of twenty one thousand people in western Arkansas we have not magazine which is the tallest mountain state of Arkansas plus two National Forest in the Arkansas River and that was what led me to develop a program a drone program specifically towards search and rescue we use ours also for some crime scene photographs from above and we've also use them as to act kind of active shooter situations or we've had a House rounded barricaded suspect type situation the the main reason why I chose the jet drones are program is it I went to a national sheriffs association conference in Kansas city last summer and there was a drone booth and there were several share of several I know there serve New York they were rule sheriffs in Assam guys with drones with drones I need to buy what I need to do in every single one and pointed to the DJ drones of those are the best in the business and so I came back I got my during my during my sins and I had one my best to get is got their drone license again we research we talked to local agencies within Arkansas and we and in that person to DJ drones for the total cost around thirteen thousand dollars we've used them since then since the from October about now and you know I've heard the national the the the concerns provide the DJ Jon the reason or reasons they're they're the best the software is easiest to use their cameras quality is really good they're motion sensor quality is really good we go in and out of places and there's some other here they could talk they're gonna talk about the other drones in their capabilities versus these drones but it's a night and day difference I've heard some issues about price and that's why DJ I have sold the most drones but that to me that price is not the consideration the consideration was if I got somebody lost in the woods I got a kid we've had the we've had an elderly fellow several times. As we've had to look for recently in the woods what product can I put up in the sky. This is the best product to use to find the person that I'm looking for an overwhelmingly from us to seventy to ninety percent of law enforcing agencies across countries D. at Rome's yes there's national consider it kind of national security concerns I have not heard from the DOJ I have not heard from the homeland security have not heard from any federal agency that has told me not to use my drone for the purpose of that we use them and M. I come down and if it does that it does but we have not we have not heard anything. I'm going to touch on something that represent McElroy brought up earlier. In my opinion we are more and more dire straits with these and those computer sitting in front of you tonight than we are from a drone we're using these things to find your kids or fight we're using these to find Those that are on the run. What is a fine your your elderly neighbor or your grandfather grandmother who who may have wandered off because of dementia we're not we're not scoping out national security issues or or locations we're using them to help our citizens to protect our citizens and again. representative McKenzie a comment about apps and things like that I've I think we're more in danger because the tick tock at this point also a Chinese company by the way then when we are then looking at drone applications are or things of that nature so We want to use as sheriff Massey said we want to use the very best that we can use to help us do our jobs to help us help you and and that's what we're here in the today in opposition. Questions from committee members. Representative back you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr president you guys contest fine but you know with all the discussion that we have now about supply chain and how we let our supply chain get too much to China controlling too many of our critical you know not just drones but other other areas there don't you think this would since it's not like putting down on the ground now not and not find it again do you think this would be a great thing to more incentivize what we're trying to do not measure which is bring chip manufacturing and things like that back home and and maybe we could bring this type of stuff but to the United States while you know still allow you guys use these these are the best at their best after now you can but hopefully it would incentivize the best to be made in America as opposed to just going further down the supply chain is dependent upon you know what some would call an adversary. I mean what we are free market economy agree to but you know we also give me give me the product it's the it's America may product bring it to us as soon as we can do and like I said I think there's some others here they can testify who have actually tested all the different drones I have not done it very small agency I just picked I picked the drones we use based on recommendations from other law enforcement agencies. The question. The questions from committee members. She nine shares Rinpoche JR.IN here testify before this committee. Thank you Sir are not first time ever and I appreciate that thank you. Signed up to speak against the bill is Blake web. I justify ships Committee who represent you're recognized give testimony thank you chairman of chief Blake well but the Highfill police department been trying Arkansas I just want to real quick I want to double talk about what the sheriff just talked about and spoke on I just like to define the reason for opposing this bill and and my testimony today it's in the interest of public safety and that I'm. Clearly aligned with any and concerned with any potential threats to national security but I do have a public safety commitment that is my job and I think that that should be something that you members might want to be aware of house bill sixteen fifty three in its current form will significantly impact public safety agencies across the state first and foremost by removing technology a technology piece that has proven to save lives and reduce risk associated with emergency services operations. most of which earned non national security oriented my agency in individually doesn't fly these drones over critical infrastructure users with water rescues his or fires these are lost persons things of that nature. I have spoken with senator McKenzie and I do appreciate his amendment that he has put on this based off of our conversation and I think that he should be commended for that the communication that is have thus far Financial impact will be significant Lee a concerning my agency in this case portions of our US program have been funded partially by community grants and donated equipment reallocation for the sale of prohibited Quitman if this bill passes would probably not be possible it would be unethical to do so Our team are you a esteem as a combination team the consists of the police department and the fire department our primary use case includes missions in support of our department's swiftwater rescue team the specific drone we utilize in that cases a DGI McMurtry's thirty T. the show has been so specific in its capabilities that allow for the ability to fly and all types of weather. which is a critical piece to a response drinks with water vents are agency has been tasked with providing swift water rescue services to the entire western portion of Benton County. sixteen fifty three will ground this vital piece of equipment. At the at the four year mark and additionally I would stress that other current drones that are manufactured in the US that I'm aware of do not have the specific capability to fly and this type of weather and cannot guarantee that they would be able to fly and that type of those types of conditions. Another point to make is training for coordination of our US team takes an extreme amount of commitment dedication and it is likely that sixteen fifty three if if it passes in its current form will inhibit my agency's ability to navigate and overcome that setback and in the end result I believe could be the complete immobilization of R. S. U. S. team and that's a vital piece of life saving technology that our community relies on local agencies not just harmful. Thank you. Thank you Sir any questions from committee members represented back you're recognized for a question. Just to have a good cause I'm I know very little about grounds or not what's the average age of your drones from having drugs you have so we have to and we just started our program about a just shy of a year ago. so yeah did you know what. Follow. Do you do now any information about what is the average age of these and do they run for ten years do they run for sure years or I think it just depends on how much they're the use is and and how what how will they maintained in the depending on policies and things of that nature when the maintenance cycles are up and things like that I don't have a definitive answer in my case I think you know two to three years as is. Five years is probably a good number. To follow up. Well I I guess. But using two to three years then this thing doesn't stop anything it's if you have four years to start migrating to the new fully so if you stay there now last two to three years depending on usage then you would have already replaced and hopefully with something that. New or better and and you know. Possibly if if if if there's something out there and currently I'm not aware of it as far as outside of the DJ I drone capabilities I I don't know what else we would be able to choose thank you. The questions from committee members. Say none we appreciate your testimony before this committee signed up to speak against this bill is Jake House. Thank you would just to have saved in the table device ships Committee into you represent you're recognized the testimony. My name's J. calcium a police officer for a major metropolitan police department here in central Arkansas Or agency or the agency that I work for started this whole ball rolling in about two thousand eight with an American made product and. It didn't work out so well for so we scrapped our our program for and many years until the the DJ I products came out. we exclusively use DJ now and if this bill were to pass we would essentially have to ground our entire fleet We have since then we have we have gone to a nother company called all till that is also kind of a half step off of the DJ I products. But this bill would also make the all children's unusable for us also. My background is as a police officer I'm a twenty year veteran been a homicide detective and amongst many other things. And I have used my DJ I products in tactical situations floated inside houses on swat raids I have used it in an actual homicide investigation and it proves vital during the during the interview of a suspect. Do I. Am I a fan of Chinese technology in Chinese spying I am not but what I am a fan of this product that works every single time what you want to work I have I have been for a demo on to American products. A and the product rep shows up and he can't even make the machine fly. OR fly correctly. I carry a DJ may have H. two enterprise and in the front seat of my police car every day. in a. Milwaukee pack out create And I can have it near in thirty seconds ready to go we use a. a third party software that that blocks supposed to block or the DOT says it's supposed to block. Any information going back to China Am I an expert in that I am not but I know the machine works and when I have to put it up. To photograph a crime scene or look for a kid that just ran out of a large housing complex that's eight or nine years old into the swamp in the middle of the winter time when it's thirty degrees I want to know that I have a product that works and I can find that kid I've used for car crashes and and and and of numerous numerous other things in the product just just it just works every time you use it it's very much like your apple iPhone it works every time you want to work So the the the issue I had with with this bill particularly and I know thank you for for. The compromise I that's. Great but what about what I have a problem with is line twenty seven or or B. C. one and we've extended that to may first of twenty twenty seven. A public in an entity shall not operate a small unmanned aircraft system manufactured by. A company that's that's owned by the Chinese. And I wonder if if since we're now regulating what we feel what we operate in the national airspace system if any if any consideration. Or or. Anybody reached out to the FAA who actually regulates their space. To see if this is if this is was kosher with them I guess And I don't I don't know that It. And does this bill with this bill allow for any a private donation. Of. Equipment to a to a volunteer fire department or what it is what it Or to a police department or to the state police or to the sheriff's office. Does that mean the. As it reads it it just reads and nobody will be able to fly if you were a badger you do some type of public service you use you can operated. I just I just wonder if we have if we have totally thought this through from point a to point B. and if it does pass Who regulates this. if it does pass. I've got drones right now that are probably eight years old that I use regularly so that time frame of of. Thirty six months depending on how well you take care of it it could last indefinitely so I still have Bible equipment dates and police cars or or or in tacos or whatever it is they can be used. Regularly but now we can't use it. because it's after that that may first of twenty twenty seven date. I. I think this is is divided. And I I will say this I have met the software engineers I've met the product engineers from DJ Do I agree with their business practices and how they do things how they treat their people now I don't. But I do know that they make a superior product. A superior product for a for a low dollar amount and when you're talking about police departments and small small agencies. Every dollar counts to. thank you for your time. Any questions from committee members. Representative Scott. Thank you Mr chairman thank you officer Jake house for being here today how much do you think it would cost for our city to replace all of the equipment that we have I know you talked to me about it on the phone but. Well I'll I'll I'll give you. Rough estimates and these are very rough estimates let's say a Chinese product cost. All in seven grand. Now let's go to the next closest American competitor. Fifteen or more. So you're almost is double the price. Say goodbye to two good. Working solid. Products for what one cost you can put more out there on the street you have three or four five on every shift in every zone of the city if you if you needed to. I bet I just I just under percent don't think this was fleshed out a hundred percent. All of. The fifth copy recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chair. Do you think I mean in your capacity now and the equipment you get. Are there federal grants available that could help in any way. Thank the buy America Act prohibits us from buying any DJ I product we were able to buy some all bills. this go around some federal grant money however By the letter of the law those would also be prohibited to. So follow up please follow up so and I've heard you say this but there there is nothing on the American market that even comes close to this. I went once to the blank makes drone called a lemur and it's me indoor outdoor it's got a glass breaker on it it's it's pretty neat to watch. But the product rep couldn't even make the make the machine do what he wanted to do I'll watch the teal golden eagle which is another American product just fly away. It's just did what it wanted to do and was difficult for the product right to control and and I'm not condoning any one country's product I don't I just. From my experience of novels so we've been doing this since two thousand eight I'm. I've been pilots and so seventeen and a flight instructor since I was probably I don't know my mid twenties. I know this stuff works. and I know it works. Every time and if there was an American product. That was cost effective. That worked every single time I needed to use it. I would be all about it But as of right now I'd I'd I'd. There may be somebody else here that has some more information has more intelligence on this than I do but if any questions from committee members. She number appreciate you testimony thank you for being here thank you. That's all I have signed up state police for your testify against this bill. You just tear okay so that's all I have signed up to testify against Bill representative begins you're recognized to closed. Close we. Secure you chairman I want to first start by saying I appreciate The the witnesses we had to come to committee today I've spoken with many of you on the phone I I I do believe this amendment helps I know it's not a necessarily comfortable conversation when we have become closely associated with were trained on we've you have sunk costs into these devices but I do appreciate the opportunity love you've given me to to chat about this issue I want to just address some of the things that we heard in testimony and I don't want to sound like I'm tinfoil hat on but there is a reason why DJ I terms are cheaper and then the best the market that's the market because they've been on the market for ten years American drone industry hadn't caught up to stuff that way first members always capture market share in a growing a burgeoning economy. They're also the cheapest. Because they are a subsidized Chinese military company and I understand respect this is nothing to do with their the critical nature of what their missions are for all of our police departments and sheriff's departments and state agencies it is a matter of fact that they are owned operated and controlled as a Chinese military company a few comments were made about you have a ground fleets that is the point of the amendment we are allowing four months or four years four existing drones within fleets to still be utilized again but and that's based on some information that I perceive that that is some of the natural life of of drones that we are currently acquired in addition to that as may be blown through to my intro but in the bill itself it does allow for an exemption process I've had a lot of great conversations with shares apartments with state police in terms of investments and very specific and very expensive drones that can hold cameras or other jobs technology attached to them I believe that is an exigent circumstance and I will happily sit in that meeting with the Secretary of transformation an advocate for that exemption I don't want this bill to run afoul of any of the critical work that are agencies or departments are doing there are mechanisms within this bill to allow them to squeeze living to squeeze squeeze the juice out of the remaining drugs they have and then for the circumstances that are most necessary continue the use of those drones pass the may first twenty twenty seven You know beyond that I I don't want to be that horse I do believe if you bundle all of the concerns that you may have heard from your insurer of Sir you're in police departments in terms of cost in training Investment some cost and and we waive those those items against the need for state and national security I think we understand as lawmakers As policy as people who write policy that are number one obligation is to secure the the are the public safety of our constituents and allowing for these drones to continue even with the exceptions that are made in the bill I don't believe or answering that call so with that I would appreciate a good vote thank you for your time. We can just as close with this bill. I have a motion from representative Gonzalez to passenger any discussion on the motion representative as amended thank you for a representative Richmond recognized to. Scuzz motion. Thank you Mr I certainly appreciate the law enforcement and any others that spoke their concerns the fact that this is something that will require transition at this bill passed but however. You know as a a former subject matter expert on unmanned aerial vehicles when I was B. M. U. two squadron commander. I have to ask why is the GI the cheapest. Why certain product the cheapest. And I can only come up with one answer and that is market domination. That is their goal is to dominate the market and they have. And I think we need to keep in consideration two thousand seventeen national intelligence law which requires the cooperation of all organizations including business organizations and citizens that they will support. The Chinese Communist Party people's army as well as Chinese Communist Party. And then I wondered okay and even with all that how are they going to be able to. Gather any information. Well I read an article just just now January twenty three. In that article states that G. D. G. D. J. I. retains access and control over the location data of every single drone it sells. This allows them to restrict we're conform I or not fly in this is what they've done with Ukrainians if you watch what happened with Ukraine they did not restrict the Russians ability to use this product but they did restrict the Ukrainians. And so that tells me that they still have some kind of control over this product and that causes me concern on this and that's why I'll vote yes on this bill. Reportorial you're recognized for discussion on the motion. I to have strong feelings as representative Richmond but it bothers me a lot that we extended this for years out if those those points that you just made are true and I and I agree that they are true or they wouldn't put him in that article so we're saying for the next four years for going to give them all that location data all those things and if this is that serious why would we not cut it off now. So I think that's the question I have and that bothers me at this point is why did we extended out if those things are true and we're transmit that data to it to an enemy state. Thank you Mr. Representative Baker recognized Scotian own motion. Thank you Mr chair and. Using my phone I looked up it says that the average life it said that if the average life of these drowned and it says it depends on usage and how aggressively the flown is up to can last up to two years that's their site that says that it says in another site that looked at that there hundred fifty to eight hundred hours this is about all you can expect out of them if you want to well maintained so the reason I bring this point up to the committee is you know what those numbers and for years it should be a dramatic change over I mean it we the the center probably be replaced within that time period anyway so it's not additional costs or anything we're just going I guess would be additional costs if you buy a higher priced drone but but it just it would be a natural mode not cause a court to their own website it's then last up to two years our and eight hundred hours flight time. Good morning yes any further discussion on the motion. Seeing none we have a motion of a do pass. All in favor say aye aye. All opposed say no. The ayes have it the bill is passed is amended thank you committee committee. The. We will run it will run. Bill. I have one more bill we're going to hear and that there's no one signed up to speak for against the bill so hopefully we'll take too low. Remind us which the Senate bill correct. Three fifty three what three fifty three Senate bill three fifty three college. Senate bill three fifty three. But you're recognized Pitsch bill thank you Mr Senate bill three fifty three comes to us from senator Dodson of representative Wardlaw District ninety four Sarvodaya Mr it's it's basically a clean up bill to make sure that documents and requests for members stay secure even after the employee's leave the bureau right now that that confidentiality exist as long as employees are employed once they leave we lose that confidentiality that's all this bill does is clean that up for For those employees once they leave the bureau not be glad to answer any questions. Any questions from committee members. So. Representative ro recognized. I'll close with a motion to do pass the motion to impassioned discussion on the motion saying none all in favor say aye. Jose NO congratulations the bill has passed Committee Committee I can't thank you enough it's been a long day you hung in there we've got a lot accomplished is