Insurance & Commerce - Senate

Please turn your cell phones off just like I did. It was good to see you will start back where we started they were going to try to get get through all we can. We have to we will have to take a recess at nine o'clock we can not to have a meeting at the same time as joint budget committee so we're gonna take a recess at that point come back after so we'll try to get as far as we can on the agenda and will start elf we're we left off the other day with Dan brown to to finish up. And he was speaking. Four yes the Bill. And this is bill seventeen hundred yes Sir eighteen hundred again my name is Daniel brown. And a. So yesterday I came in here with a satchel full of information I had all kinds of facts I've spent. Fifty sixty hours researching studying this. And last night I went home and miss Hamilton I watched your speech three different times Preparing what I was gonna say Mr Penzo I watched your. Questions and answers and I Had all kinds of notes I was going to come in here and I was going to wax eloquent eloquent this morning I left is all of us in this room did it before as daylight and as I was leaving my house in hot springs I wanted to my ten year old son's bedroom and I kissed him on the forehead and he woke up and he said The sale of you diagnose allow me to sign it he said why are you leaving so early and I said I'm going to go back to the capitol. And he asked me a question that changed my entire speech this morning asked me why. And I'm ashamed that I've watched your speech to try to prove my agenda I'm ashamed I watched your responses to try to prove my agenda. I was here because this is what I wanted I was here because it would allow me to do property management. But folks if we look around this room who are we missing. We're missing the tenants. There's not one tenant sitting in this room they can't afford to be here they can't afford the gas money to get here they can afford to take off work. That's who will either be hurt or helped by this bill it's the tenants. My life whether this gets approved or not tomorrow my life goes on just like it always has. And I would like to thank everyone in this room your life goes on I realize we're all our Kansans fighting for our seat at the table I get that the same thing you're not a bad person I don't know you I'm assuming you've been doing this fifteen years you're great person all the Blueshirts you would be sentence from here bad people or all our Kansans fighting for what we believe. I've been here for three weeks I've watched what you guys do. One thing it made me realize I don't want to be able to send. You'll have a very very difficult jobs. This bill seventeen hundred in just a few minutes. There's going to be either a by Jie's eyes a bunch knows. And we move right on to the next bill. But there will be people who this will affect where they lay their head at night. There will be people who are fighting for a home fighting for a place to stay I think one thing we can all agree on is there's a problem with housing in Arkansas especially low income housing. Here's my challenge to everyone sitting in this room as I ask myself this morning and I have no notes all my sixty hours appropriate preparation I left it in the car didn't bring it in here. Why why are we sitting here today is that so we can. Bring our little piece to the table are we doing this for the tenants. So in just a few minutes few moments hopefully sooner than later. We are all going to vote. And if you're voting to help Daniel brown and other property managers like me because you think all this is going to help those property managers. But it's going to hurt tenants I hope you all vote no. If you think that this could help tenants. Not help Daniel brown not help the realtors but it could help tenants and I hope we all the yes because that's who truly this bill is going to affect their everyday lives not mine. Not anybody else in this room. Our lives go on. Thank you for your time. Thank you Sir any questions from the Committee. Seeing none Mr brown thank you very much for testimony yes Sir thank you. Now we're going to go to Darryl Dale Carlton speak against yes. My name's Dale Carlson I'm from federal Arkansas I've been in this real estate business for about twenty four years I've actually owned and or manage well over three hundred properties myself the entire time and also an attorney and even as an attorney I continue to keep my real estate license because the value it places upon those people are represent also one other thing I think it speaks right to this bill that we're looking at is I'm actually one of the national instructors I'm one of twenty national instructors that teach the certifications and designations this bill actually represents an actual part of drafting many of those and I hope I can answer some questions for you all directly to how this might impact the property managers you know in that aspect there's there's three things that I think are really important understanding why I would tell you to vote against this bill it's a people issues its education issues and legal issues that I want to start with the people real quick because a look at our census it twenty twenty if you look at the population of renters versus our total population there's about thirty four to thirty five percent of our Kansans you're renting homes right now it's a little over a million people that will be impacted by what we're talking about here today most of those might affect the majority of those are minorities they're low income in there this is the displaced people are going through divorces or even the tragedy that just went through with the tornadoes here in Little Rock or people don't have a place but their head they're forced into rental and don't have any kind of background in reading or just looking for a place to to lay down and and you know it's kind of a unusual for us to sit and talk about a bill that removes any kind of rules and regulations rights and wrongs in talking about how that's going to help people when there's so many of them that don't have help and testimony yesterday and it was really good testimony about all the different free things that are available to people when they need it in a in a in their end up. Addition or a place that they might not to know what to do or can afford an attorney that cost them five thousand dollars one of the things that this already in place and so amazing is with Arkansas real estate commission we don't just have a place they can go to the fair housing office in in fair housing offices we know will go after people that do wrong but they don't make hold the people that were done wrong and they actually will attack and and help in the aspect of trying to stop a bad but they don't help with real estate commission we have a place and a means already for them to file a complaint to be heard. Cost absolutely nothing and then with the recovery fund to be able to be made whole as a result of that afterwards and it's that being made whole the really changes everything and and it in these people can't necessarily afford the means to go hire an attorney or even know to hire an attorney in so those aspects and the other thing too is is we we just talked about the fact of who this is going to impact and I think it does impact about one million plus of our citizens. In the very are all ready to real estate licensure in the property management is pretty low I mean you take a class sixty hours couple weekends you actually get there you take a test I'm gonna seventy percent on that you take some post license and then your renewal is sixty to eighty dollars between whether you're a real estate licensee or you're a broker and seven hours of education every year and that's a pretty low barrier to keep a license that allows the public some protections of rules and regulations and rights and wrongs that just kind of give us a baseline for what people should actually do this is not an over regulated or over burdensome scenario for property managers to get into it I don't think we should look at is an expected we need to to create some Avenue from not to do it when it such an easy route already and by the way I'm are you know I heard some testimony that the you couldn't find out where it was that there was an exemption for property managers to go through but I just look to us not just to check in real estate commissions website same place you would apply for a license there's a form to apply for an exemption so it's is it if you know where to get the license you know how to get to an exemption and then that's a good thing that that's available to people when it actually applies if there's a good reason we already have this in place this bill would do what's already there and we're already allow and it's easy to find at least it was for me there is some real legal issues in these have not been talked about I think you will really need to think through this one one of them the Supreme Court in nineteen eighty one right here in Arkansas supply that this gave a ruling on the Polk County the sos case many of you may know that was for the Polk County Bar Association sued the realtors in Polk County over the unauthorized practice of law over the filling out of real estate contracts and leases saying we're attorneys we fill out contracts and leases you all should be doing this is an authorized practice of law after years of debate years of going to the court systems one of the major. In things and mazing rulings I think I've ever seen is probably one of the most quoted real estate rulings in the United States of America and it's been the basis of license laws and many of the states across America but the ruling came down said this for licensees and brokers. You are authorized. To fill out forms and or lease is as an approved attorney to do it may cast this they did say will be held to the same accountability is a licensed attorney would real estate agents would also be considered able to do that we have a problem with this bill at the moment we pass this bill put it through and we have an exemptions for property managers do not have a license they're no longer covered under that particular precedent it would immediately become the unauthorized practice law for them to fill out leases in representation of somebody else and I don't know how we would educate on because our education process goes the Arkansas real estate commission they would no longer be over those people well it it creates a real issue of getting information out to those people that could need information when there's updates or things are important of the fidelity bonds mentions a means of protection also there is a little bit of legal issue the bility Bon Philly bond is based on fidelity which is really nice and the fidelity is is between generally if Delhi bonds for it for a business to get a bond to protect them against their employers and the wrongs that they do with the rest be fidelity against the fidelity fiduciary between the person that was harmed in them the Delhi bond would protect those land owners of this property owners if something was wrong to them but it would not provide the same thing to tenants because the fiduciary to tenants is found in rules and regulations under your license law and so if we remove the license laws that we remove the dish Sherri they probably would have a hard time claiming under fiduciary specially not without getting attorney in phantom three four thousand dollars to recover what might be one thousand fifteen hundred dollar deposit bill we probably had other things security bonds things like that that is not covered in the bill as it stands right now then there's one one a little thing here on the legal side we have sanction property managers under the Arkansas real estate commission to not be able to practice because of the degree just acts they took. Against tenants or and or property owners there representing. If we pass this bill they will immediately because of their previous qualifications be able to step in and start practicing property management again people we pulled license from without any oversight whatsoever and that absolutely scares me to death last thing education I've there's been testimony in which we even saw a stack of of information there how much was about real estate and how much of it was about property management and I have to disagree I have to say that that whole stack was about property management as much as it was about real estate and sales because we do their very parallel fields and you represent clients you work through disclosures with those clients you work through filling out form contracts whether it's being a lease or contract work through repairs you work through problems it they are parallel fields in the education is about the principles of real estate understanding that so that you can best represent somebody I we have been fortunate enough for years to be speaking up gust it's been almost twenty one years across the nation fit all fifty states five different countries and been the author of many of those certification courses that this bill says if you had this this could cover and I want to tell you why and I understand why somebody would say we don't have property management education that listen to me on this one the reason why they like certification courses are they pay me big money I get paid five thousand dollars a day to teach those courses in I get good money doing that you know why because it's about business I teach him how to make a profit I teach him how to advertise and market and to brand their self is about making more money we go into continuing education and prelicense and post Lysons this education that's being accused of not being about property management see it's not about property **** about the public it's about protecting rights and rule. Lows and regulations and you have to understand that our C. E. is about us making sure that we're doing the right thing for everybody represent for these million people that in this case in property management that are that are tenants and if we can see that and I get the same complaint from real estate licensees they say we don't have any education about us it's all about protecting the public well you know what that's by design the design is is that we learn how to protect the people and they can go pay for certifications so that they can then make a better profit reason I'm speaking against this bill as I see some real problems and one of the things that this existed really in the chaos of politics right now is is just the lack of communication and I think if we can get all the stakeholders or sit down I mean we can get for housing that we can get X. Arkansas rules the Commission sit down we can get Arkansas realtors association that down and we can we can get representive McGrew into this table I think we could do something meaningful but it wouldn't cost so many problems right up front with the way this bill as written as it is thank you very much I really hope you will vote against this bill. Thank you for your testimony on we've got some questions for you Senator Hickey. Yes Sir. started talking it sounded like to me that you were almost alluding to the fact that you had to be alasan real estate to broker to be able to lease property is that your thought because that's that's what was coming off you almost from the way that your we're heading with this is like will that you all are the only ones that think that you can lease property is that your intent no I don't know how you heard me say that but I'll I'll tell you right it might ten is is that that's all I needed to do have one more so we. From the deals that I've been in with the real estate. Roper's. You always have to check whether or not you're representing the the seller or the buyer the owner or whatever it may be as it comes to property management are you all under those same guidelines yes okay so are you telling me because all this stuff I'm sitting here about the tenants that if we went to all the last in real estate brokers that are out there and got a copy of those that there's going to showed that they're representing both the owner and the tenant is that is that the way all those are going to be set up in the form disclosure for that now that's not what I ask that so I don't know what everybody in the business does not want their supposed I can tell you what they do they're representing the people they're paying them so it's it's kind of a I'm not disrespectful to you but it's kind of an insult to me that we sit out here talking about these tenants like this. In the end I guarantee you those forms there representing the people that own the property and who are paying them that if the that's the way they're gonna be set up anybody else out here was to say no mine says both there's one anybody else find it Senator Hickey less that stay here at the table with the questions for the for the judgment in the type. That's my point though if that was the case it would all be automatic that it was doing that way so I understand you're down here representing your deal. She ate that. Back to I have backed the rulers are realtors on basically everything. But what I want to tell you is is I don't want somebody come down here and act like it's all for the tenants that's not the case because I will tell you I'm not looking to go in the business as far as property management but I've been doing this for twenty something years and I usually don't like saying that but I promise you I take care of my tenants that's the way I operate. Thank you the. The right response or so I I really do appreciate saying that because I I do respect that in here's a here's a really unusual thing that I think may not be seen in the seats are sitting here is that most of these people are property manager how many or property managers in this last a stay on the subject right here you're at the other type of not no Sir we're not worried about the audience right now they can come up with that fact well Sir this is my meeting I'm sorry I'm sorry. Stay with the subject thank you no it and what my point was is the reason why we're here is because we're not all property managers is that we are really concerned about the way affects the public that was the thank you Senator Boyd. Thank you thank you Mr chair I'll be quick here so. You said you're an attorney you know I don't know if you just seven Arkansas license or others I'm just curious like say Kansas how to habitability laws compared in another state versus Arkansas us a really good question so. Kansas has a long history of habitability backed and I think it's nineteen seventy four they had a case where a lady and five children were. Basically not know repairs are done to the property and they came in a ruling on the case where they said they gave her back rent significant back rent in they started habitability eight was seventy four if I remember as a long time ago and they have a long history and good laws of habitability Arkansas unfortunately we we were the bad state for years until twenty twenty one we were the only state that didn't have any have built the laws we finally got those in and we don't have that the history that that they had and so they currently they have commercial backing for real estate but they don't have any residential licensure because they've had good good laws in place the entire time but we actually didn't have good laws in place but we do actually we don't get a really good job and a lot of people here were involved in that in getting those the habitability loss I think is November of twenty twenty one we finally got everything third thanks Centerton. Thank you thank you good morning. And going back to this issue that you brought up about the court case and the contracts could you just go through that one more time for me sure so is the Polk County Bar Association versus Suggs at all which was the which was the realtors Board at that time and the the basically the tourney's felt like the real estate should be filling out leases and and contracts and they wanted to stop that so this is another special off and the ruling came down it was six basic points to said look if real estate licensees and brokers are flat leases into contracts in these circumstances forms approved by attorneys things that nature is laid out said then that is the authorized practice of law for licensees and it would it only addressed licensees and so it leaves out an issue where if you are licensed. Yes but don't small business owners and people do that all the time for themselves is only in the representation of another person when you're representing somebody else so in we don't need a license to represent ourselves for leases and stuff and even contract you don't it is the only representation somebody else okay so but the. I suppose I go back to what Senator Hickey was talking about with the tenants no really who is there really represent attendance rather than I guess for housing and and some of the laws that have ability laws but but if a tenant has an issue who they go to so in in my area in northwest Arkansas a lot of the tenants are represented by agents matter of fact in my real properties the ones that were actually mansion most of them come we actually pay a fee Commission to those people that represent so they have agents represent them stuck a buyer would in a house probably and it look at least over half of those aspects they have to make comes in it gets paid we pay out of the form level agent representation in a who is that agent with that is what if another brokerage company another public event like like say Lindsey and associates would come to me for my rental properties and they say Hey I've got somebody it's a very common practice for those getting into the business because there's a you can make three hundred five hundred dollars representing a tenant and it's a it's a great week means of income and it's paid for by the landlords themselves in the those that represent them so what about like a low income individual in an apartment at the same scenario they had a lot of times they have representatives ahead it he pays for them the they don't have to intended to come like when you're buying a home it usually goes through the listing side same thing occurs with it's usually to the landlord's payment to the actual agent represent the landlord that it's another brokerage firm focused workers okay thank you senator Elliots up in the. You know just the Missy can to cut the question I was going to ask him to clarify but that while I'm on the makers want to go ahead and disclose that I'm a real estate agent I'm a realtor have been for about eighteen years of anyway just wanted to the other we have of manage properties and also of represented the tenants on finding property so in that case the the listing firm represented the the property owner and I represented the tenant in the transaction so that is pretty common. Thank you Sir they're Johnson. In my hand Mr chairman is a bit of a follow up on a question from that center Penzo just answered Mr cross you cited a Supreme Court decision that more or less said that. Real estate agents can. In this very narrow sense practice law if you will call it that when was that decision is in. It was decided in nineteen eighty one you know in that eighty one thank you Sir so we're dealing with a forty. Yeah yes long pressed on time okay thank you thank you senator Johnson Senator Hickey center. When I remember the story compensation is. What about the. Thirty four thirty five AM. Are you stated in your area fifty percent of those represent to represented by a. Or you tell in the. You're telling me that fifty percent low income with low income as a division of. One of the you're telling me that those people in your area. I'll be a big truck clarify I said in the cases where I'm representing a fifty percent and lot of mine are low income because I have lower income properties. In fact on the party situation I understand that under property management you may be but anybody that is a. I don't mean they have. More than likely they're going to they're going to be able to get representation from the sale of. Contract. But involved in that. I want to make sure that we know that what what mark you there that representation is available you already have an. but. The property manager cannot use that also. Okay. Any other questions the committee. C. nine thank you for your testimony thank you. Okay as against seventy four. We got does speak for the bill Paul Calvert. And for all those of you who are signed up to speak for against the bill if something is already been said please think about for time's sake if you need to come and repeat yourself because the Committee we we do have time in this today and I know you'll be in here for two or three days already and if we kind of stretch it out you will be here for another day. Calculator is easier Michael resident be read. Okay thank you committee so my take is a little bit different reaction so right now we have pretty heavy regulation in the real estate. I'm Paul covered dirt sorry bout that So right now we have pretty significant regulation the real estate markets and In other in other industries as well and one of things that I'm concerned about is often times we make regulations but we don't actually know if they help which it sounds the radically good is what we need we need some more oversight oversight but where's the evidence based justification for these regulations license or whatever it may be and I'm not seeing that I'm not seeing that a lot of these regulations that we have in place whether it's licensure or or rules. Are are helping either consumers or property owners are but it sure does stifle the marketing and cuts into The market place and it provides higher profits for the practitioners in many create cases because they have protectionism with the laws and so it'll it will enrich certain people but does it actually help consumers who were. Purportedly claiming to to protect. That's my testimony. Any questions the committee. C. nine thanks for testimony thank you. Speaking against the bill we have delegates. Clarified. Yes Sir thank you and I want to thank the committee my name is Doyle Eads so. Correct and you do have incorrectly I just said it wrong. But other than that that is my name actually executive vice president Caldwell banker here's Makeni faucet of forty years in the business as a broker and seven years on the commission three times appointed by governor hats. So I wanted to address the question that was asked yesterday that I actually didn't have the opportunity to answer and that was whether or not someone passing the rule state exam could immediately begin to do property management and the answer to that question is yes they can of. I'll clarify to what pre licensing is about it is about preparing someone to take an exam it is not training an applicant to sell real estate is not training an applicant to do commercial sales is not training them to do property management it is taking them through contract law disclosure agency all the things that they need to know regardless of what Avenue they may choose to specializing. So not not unlike the legal profession that someone are graduates law school in passes the bar they may go into tax law they may going to family law they may go into corporate law any number of things but it's up to them to make that decision a past that point and it's the same with real estate commission we don't try to from a commission standpoint direct anyone in one direction or or another it is up to that individual if they want to do property management find a broker that does property management go to work for them now beyond that there are two avenues to obtain a broker's license one it is and it's for it's the same whether you're doing real estate sales or whether you do a property management one is to do two years and have that experience and then apply to take the broker's exam you're required to do additional education but passed the broker's exam and then you can become a broker either and property management or in general state sales the other Avenue is to and it was mentioned earlier to apply for a broker waiver based on experience and you heard the testimony yesterday that the rules the Commission has granted that eight times in the last five years of we get the request more than eight times in the last five years some of them that they always come to the commission for hearing but some of more frivolous you know I remember one young lady who applied for a an exemption to get a broker's license because she had done interior design for two years have nothing to do with this industry maybe you connect the house to that but that's about it of we had someone who applied because they had a degree in marketing. But every time that someone has applied and could provide background information on the experience level they had whether it be on the real estate sale side warm property management side we have granted a waiver. we've had situations where someone wanted to get the waiver for Brooks licensed to open rule state sales and they had done corporate rule state of which in this case in the state of Arkansas you're not required to have a license you work from Walmart for example and land acquisition but they had experience over a two year period of dealing with contracts dealing with negotiation and so we granted of I cannot recall in the seven years that I was on the commission ever denying an applicant who applied for brokers license because they were gonna do property management. So that's my experience I appreciate what Mr brown said today I absolutely agree with them it is not about us whether this bill goes through or not will not affect my business one way or the other but I will correct a number that we shared yesterday and that is that. If this bill passes this will be the eleventh state in the country not requiring a license actually reality is there are six states that do not require it in three of those have cavea it's cancers with mention this one they do require a license if you do commercial leasing that don't require on residential. If that means that forty four other states and the district of Columbia of require a license because they feel that it is necessary to have that oversight for protection of the public Senator Hickey asked the question about tenants and what sort of rights they have the one thing that is done from a commission level for tenet is that even if I don't represent the tenant and leasing transaction I disclosed to the tenant that I do not represent. and that I do represent the owner but as far as their redress that was a also mention here the redress now it currently is with real estate commission we have heard hearings cases where the tenant has filed a complaint against a a property manager of course it's a licensee at that point And and have been able to get redress to the commission and through of the recovery fund be made whole of for whatever they lost out for so yes if we believe that we tear down the guard rails and everyone will do the right thing just because it's the right thing already know personally from seven years everyone doesn't do the right thing and I think if you tear down the guard rail then the protection you'll find people who begin to make their own rules so I would offered Mr brown that actually I have the application I make copies of it is called application for Arkansas broker's license experience required if you fill that out I'm sure it would be expedited he'd have his broker's license he could accept all of those low income opportunities that he says that he's missing right now so I take questions Senator Irvin. Thank you I heard you say that you had a young lady that applied but it was frivolous because she had done interior design was it because of the basis of her doing interior design that it was for everyone was because it was not related to being a broker in real state okay. What if you had a degree in construction management and your project manager would that be considered remember you something that would be considered this prevalence bill nor would you grant a waiver as long as you could provide and if you could look at the application yes ask for what transactions were you involved in how long ago what were the dates of those transactions it's looking for someone for example like Mr brown who has managed a number of his own okay is a custom thank you okay the contracts the lease right in books and other people okay let me let me ask the question so if you had a degree a four year degree in construction management. With zero experience of being a brokerage firm and managing any properties would you grant a waiver to the individual. So you can build an apartment complex and be in charge of building at a pub no please let me finish you can build we have young women all the time who build hospitals who build apartment complexes you know the intricacies of every detail in that building but they would not be able to mandate day fill out contracts all the time they deal with subcontractors they deal with general contractors that young lady. You had a four year degree in construction management would not be eligible for a waiver to become a property manager of the building she just built or is that what you're saying to me that's a question that's the question the beginning of your question was if she has a degree but my answer is simply having the degree no she probably would not get the waiver you went on to say building without feeling Beals Ariens yes experience in that case yes how many years or would you consider oral project license law notices to this bill so as to who. So that's what I'm saying is that this bill the current of. Avenue for getting a broker's license is better and shorter than this bill Senator I mean rob you just a second we get staff to get a copy of that data has around that actually he alluded to just a second ago it's just so we are having but I look at the exact and I'll because I want to clarify one thing before we go back to Senator Irvin okay so. What I just heard you say it when you answered center service question was it is subjective owned the people on the committee to decide waiver are not a waiver on the commission yes yes on the Commission wrecked their five commissioner as what is that subjectivity based on I we you're trying to trick with the I'm the I want to know facts figures and what's written down not what's in your mind it is based on what is written down. is that on this form yes they fifteen copy for okay. So. I apologize for the confusion Senator Irvin but if I can under that let me get I speak thank you I'm just trying to speak so that I can get the questions in my mind's answered okay thank you. So is their exact criteria. And I mean even if your and your design. Degree and you've worked in the field of interior design for two years would that be considered frivolous or not well maybe my choice of the word frivolous was not appropriate but it would not be substantial enough to grant the waiver. I want a broker's license. Okay well you know I'm I'm thinking back about I have a niece who's and interior design degree but works and you know incredible properties and in New York actually managing so. Anyway I in that case I at what percentage of a brokerage firms at what percentage of any real estate brokers firm is sales and what percentage is property management it would depend on the firm. Thirty eight it would just depend on the farm but there's not really a standards answered no as far as a person could you give me some examples maybe the firm you're with maybe of my office we do almost exclusively residential and commercial sales okay so the percentage of our offices in the market there are offices in my market that you primarily property management that's all they do. So so your firm is all you can answer from but so what percentage of your firm would be sales versus property management one hundred percent sales okay thank you. Senator boy then Senator Hickey. Thank you Mr chair ought to go back to have the ability for just a second okay so I don't know how often you read the newspaper read the editorials and you hear how burdensome Arkansas is with licensing and how many licenses we have and here's another license. Thank may be in real estate as well as medicine and nursing and other things that rather than putting in a lot of laws like habitability which protect the consumer on one in that we culturally maybe have to issues license as a way to protect consumers is that. Interzone mask in the. Our consumer protection is because we have people who hold a license and there's a way to complaint there's a mechanism that people can get to rather than using the court system absolue or something else thank you yes. Senator Hickey. Yes Sir and I appreciate your clarification on some I wanna make sure though that I fully understand and I know you said this so if you go through everything and you actually do get your broker's license you can then be a property manager is that yes okay. And this is where I'm I will go with that so you've you've went through and did a course is what you've done so you've done a course. And then you can start managing property and you know what I'm about to head I literally have a friend who was a school teacher for thirty plus years and they went through and got their of license in it And selling real estate. And do an excellent job. However they've never managed any rental property so what we're sitting here saying the is is that if you take take this course in or whatever this is said in here that that automatically entitles you to be a property manager. But. If you hadn't done that thing then you've got to go through some other extensive. Top exemption trying to get an exemption or waiver or whatever you're going to do. You know. Arabs Senator Irvin say like with the degree. You know if somebody has a degree in business management. I don't know how you could say they're not as qualified as somebody this never went to school but they went through and did all the stuff for your for your broker's license. It looks like to me we're kind of got a little bit different standard or just. Just to be honest on that so thank you can answer it was yesterday the chairs of okay if you can answer fast yes. The issuance of the license is just to allow you to become a real estate agent now when I said that you could do property management right away you would have to find a broker who does property management or is willing to take you on and train you and property management not every broker will do that I will not do that yes that was answer the other day and yesterday and testimony center in. On on this right here It is so you say it's it's the the criteria it as I read it says documentation as the commission deems satisfactory. So. There is no. I mean there's really no exact criteria here listed so if I'm the person applying I wouldn't really know what's in your head as a commission because that's incredibly subjective there's no exact criteria laid out here as far as number of years number projects number of. I mean it says documentation as the commission deems satisfactory. To demonstrate that the applicant has gained experience in the real estate business equal to that which would be gained by a person engaged in the real estate business on a full time basis during the minimum two year period of time and then you have a listing but there's no exact criteria and then it says and maybe you can further explain this consideration shall be given to the broker applicants local real estate market and or specialized area of real estate practice so. To me that's not real clear it just seems like the commission. Kind of gives a thumbs up or thumbs down but not to yes okay okay thank you. Senator Hickey you can make if I said we've got to second year okay I wanna make sure then based on what she said up here says documentation as the commission deems satisfactory. But then whenever you're going down into the language right here says any person is application for brokers license is denied by the executive director. May appeal such to now to the commission so I assume what's happening here is the commission may have possibly laid out this form basically is what it amounts to. But in the end is these are coming in the executive director is the one that's actually making that decision is that correct in order to the way this is Reno and that is the way that reads but the practice with the commission as been that the executive director would simply scheduled for a hearing and provide the documentation to the five commissioners and then the person applying for the waiver would show up and okay later K. laptop winding down in Europe about preaching what you just said but if it reads we're Senator Hickey is gonna if it reads this way right that's the way we have to look at not what you're going to tell us on that part we have to go over what it reads. Yeah that's reading we are asking model for that question so no. Both appreciate that the rest the input but we have to go over what it says on the form that you provided to us right I understand that and use any other quick questions for Mister Yates for re recess. Thank you I love seeing Blueshirts is my favorite color I'm go ahead and tell you that so I guess we'll see you all roughly around ten o'clock it will be for five minutes after Joint Budget adjourns. I can't in the same same go to be earlier though thank you very well could be yeah so it's only five ACT three nights at five minutes after Joint Budget adjourns. Thank you.