Independent Citizens Commission
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Speaker 1
0:00
Citizens Commission. I call the meeting to order. Lacking a gavel, I use my knuckles. Anyway, I want to, as we start, just point out that this meeting was called due to the fact that the legislature was in session and the Legislative Bureau was busy and could not give us information about other states, constitutional officers, and legislators at the time, comparisons.
So we postponed that consideration on salaries of legislators and constitutional officers until today, May 12th. I'd like to call the roll, and if you're present, please say present, and if not, obviously, you are absent. I'd like to also note that representatives of the Auditor's Office and the Attorney General's Office are present, and I'll have them identify themselves.
Okay, starting off, Vice Chair Tommy May. Present.
Speaker 45
1:19
Philip Fletcher. Frank Gwynn. Present. Jonathan
Speaker 1
1:26
Rogers. Present. Jan Zimmerman. Present. Clark Smith. Present. Okay, and on behalf of the auditor's office. T.J. Fowler, present.
On behalf of the attorney general's office. Nia Malthus. And also Donna Kerr on behalf of the auditor's office as well. Um, our first order of business is approving the minutes of the February 17, 2023, uh, meeting. I'd like, uh, if it's fairly succinct, I'd like a motion to approve. Motion.
Jonathan Rogers moves a second. Second. Second. Okay. Okay. And is there any discussion? If not, I will ask for a vote. Please say yay if you approve the minutes. Yay. Yes. Okay.
Speaker 15
2:42
That is unanimous. Now, we are going to look at some information
Speaker 1
2:48
that was gathered by T.J. Fowler on salaries of not necessarily adjoining states, but other states on legislative salaries, governor salaries, et cetera, all of the executive constitutional officer salaries. Now, I want to share, and some of you were on the commission at the time, that back in November of 2021, we had a meeting after the salary resolution was issued on October 1 for constitutional officers and members of the General Assembly.
And this meeting was on November the 17th, 2021, and it was at the request of Chairman Banks, who wanted more detailed information of comparing legislative salaries, as well as judicial salaries, by the way. This was covering the waterfront, so we were able at that time to get descriptions of jobs and duties for senators as well as House members, and we also got some comparisons.
And obviously, in Arkansas, we gained a copy, which let us see how many times the legislature has met each year, since 1969, actually, and how many special sessions, et cetera. So you could get a feel for actually how much there had been an increase in the number of sessions,
although some years there were several legislative sessions back in the 80s. But in the case of the last decade, there were obviously during COVID, We didn't have a lot of sessions, and in 2019. Before that, in 2013, 14, 15, and 16, and 17 and 18, we had quite a few.
So I think the idea was to give us an
Speaker 1
5:48
were also given stats on, which were dated 2021. This was obviously in November, but we were given descriptions of legislative compensation
for Arkansas, Iowa, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Tennessee, in those particular ones. And what was obvious was that sometimes we were comparing apples to oranges because travel reimbursement is different. Some of these states actually give an office expense to each.
For example, in Iowa, they get $300 a month for
Speaker 45
6:43
postage, et cetera. I mean, it's just automatic. And then in Louisiana, they get $2,000 a month for vouchered office expenses. And staff allowance. We don't have any staff allowance for our legislators, as far as I know. and senators receive, this is very interesting,
Speaker 1
7:08
in Missouri, $94,000 per year for staff salaries. So you've got a whole slew of different types of systems and they're all part-time, by the way. They're all legislatures that are part-time, but they all differ in many respects. So when I was looking at what the information we've been given today, I will admit to you that because Florida and Georgia are not contiguous, I must say Texas is its own world, and I'm not critical of that.
I'm just saying it's a huge state, and I'm not sure this legislative salary of $7,200, I'm not sure what else they get other than that. It's a little afield from most salaries. So what I was looking at, and I want you all to throw your input into this,
Speaker 45
8:29
I was looking at Oklahoma, Missouri, Louisiana, and Tennessee, because
Speaker 1
8:38
that's what we were looking at a year and a half ago.
and what I noticed in just looking at comparisons is Arkansas and Oklahoma seem to be pretty well in tandem other than the lieutenant governor's salary which we know is kind of an unusual situation So Oklahoma, since our evaluation in November of 2000,
Speaker 45
9:18
which was really 2020 figures, if the truth be known,
Speaker 1
9:26
they've raised their salaries considerably. They've raised legislative salaries, $12,000. dollars. They've raised governor's salary $9,000, lieutenant governor $16,000, AG $41,000, secretary of state $11,000, treasurer got a huge chunk $38,000, and the auditor $10,000. So
So it's kind of an interesting phenomenon in Oklahoma. Now, Missouri's raises have been in the 3,000 to 4,000 range. They have not been that high. Our raises that were given on October 1 were basically, I can't remember exactly what the percentage was,
but it's nothing like Oklahoma did. Anyway, Louisiana has given a raise to the Secretary of State and the AG. No, not the AG. Secretary of State got $9,000 and the Treasurer got $13,000. But other than that, they've stayed pretty the same. So, you know, I'm not sure how you all want to look at these statistics,
understanding that sometimes it's apples and oranges, and we don't know about. Now, we know, based upon some of the information from November of 2021, that there was some information given to us about the per diem rate for legislators. They used the GSA guidelines.
And so at that time, back in November, it was 155 per day for outside the 50-mile radius of the Capitol and 59 per day for inside the mile radius. The mileage at that time was 56. And so we had some information on special sessions and how much was paid out to each legislator. and we know they come for meetings throughout the year, which has increased.
Meetings are all year long. So that's my commentary just on information, and what I'd like to do is open the floor for discussion. As you know, we did give raises to the judiciary, and it was a sequential raise, 2%, and then I can't remember, 5% or something like that.
And, you know, we know, well, first of all, according to the DF&A, we know that constitutional officers, what they are paid is in a separate fund, and it's not taking away from social service programs or other things. It's just set aside. But if it's not used, then, as I understand, it goes back into general revenue
and then they do another at the next session in the, what do you call it, the stabilization process, they set aside another chunk of money. So it's important, in my view, to understand that we're not robbing Peter to pay Paul. So I'm
Speaker 21
13:49
as you mentioned in your opening remarks,
there are other compensation other than the salaries, and those are important to figure into these. In fact, you know, the last time we had those discussions, again, those were fairly significant amounts. And so as we think in terms of the salary, I think it needs to be all-encompassing, number one.
Speaker 22
14:30
Number two is I do agree with you that it's important to look
Speaker 21
14:49
at contiguous states, You know, thinking in terms of, you know, we have more information, again, on those states. We understand them. We're probably more alike each other in several different ways. Population, especially.
Yeah, exactly right. I do think we have to take into consideration whether we like it or not. I think we have to, you know, last time we talked about surplus. and uh but but the fact is that we from our standpoint of our economy you know we truly are facing some uh uphill challenges and uh and we don't know exactly where that's going to
you know to take us again i think that has to be taken into consideration if we're going to do something more than just what I would consider a normal adjustment. My thinking would be a 3% increase along the lines of what I think I've commented on before. and at the same time, I think, between now and the next year that this is great,
and I'd just simply like to add to this, those
Speaker 28
16:19
supplemental payments next year when we consider that. That would be my comments. And I'm not making a motion yet. No, I got you. You're just commenting. Well,
Speaker 1
16:31
I do want to say that when things were looked at in special sessions on the Senate side, we didn't get the figures from the House side at that time. Only the Senate, I believe, sent us how much they were, you know, spending.
It was, each session was about $19,000 or $20,000 of total, everybody. um uh so you know but i don't know what the house spent i i don't have that information in in this packet so i'm yeah you're right they they're that needs to be considered uh jonathan any any comments you want to make sure um you know as
Speaker 32
17:20
i kind of look through here
I kind of, you know, just kind of ranked us with the 10 that we have here. You know, we're in the top three, I guess, with legislative salaries. We're number three. Alabama and Oklahoma would be the only two above us. Governor's salary is similar, number three. Lieutenant Governor is number 10, but we even talked about last year kind of the different duties done in different states with that position. So that was an apple and oranges, as you already mentioned. Attorney General, we're fifth, middle of the pack. um secretary of state fifth middle of the pack and then treasurer and then auditor with
treasurer's fifth and then auditor's third you know it's kind of as i look through all this um my immediate reaction is i'm kind of proud of where we are as a state truthfully i think we've done good over the last several years of keeping in line with other states we definitely don't want to fall behind. But at the same time, my personal opinion is I would be fine foregoing anything this year and kind of seeing what happens in the upcoming year and addressing it as we address raises next year with all this information. I wouldn't be opposed to Mr. Tommy's idea either.
But just as I look through here, you know, where we're at, you know, being ahead of so many other states um i like what i see as we look through here currently and you know what legislative that was kind of the number one thing we talked about right and all those people have other income so this isn't as you've already mentioned and most of those people if not all of them do have other careers too um so my personal opinion is i'm fine where we are for now and i think you have to review it every year um to ensure that we don't fall behind and if you have to make a bigger
adjustment in the future. You can, but I think we've addressed, as we've addressed
Speaker 35
19:13
the judicial pay, I kind of like where we're at today. That's my personal opinion, but I'm
Speaker 37
19:21
not opposed to Mr. Tommy's. Madam Chair, if I may, just a point of clarification, there is
Speaker 39
19:27
a typographical error for the Arkansas Secretary of State's salary. It says 131,322. It should be 101,322. Apologize for that mistake. We're not fifth anymore. No, we're not fifth anymore. And then another point of
clarification, and I think everyone understands this, but I just want to make it clear. Y'all were talking about other sources of pay that's purely legislative. I don't believe any of the executive officers have any other source
Speaker 43
20:00
of pay. This is their sole. Exactly. Would you repeat what you just said on the Secretary of
Speaker 39
20:06
State? Yes, sir. Secretary of State for Arkansas on your packet says one hundred thirty one thousand three hundred and twenty two that should
Speaker 44
20:13
read one hundred and one thousand three hundred twenty
Speaker 45
20:17
two one zero one i'd like to hear from everybody that's
online on the phone i'll start with ms zimmerman thank you
Speaker 48
20:30
madam chairman well in listening to the discussion i seem to be aligned with vice chairman may on his thoughts uh simply because all the feedback that i had received the mail indicated that at this point most of the legislators that i heard from
We're not in agreeance with taking a raise at this time. So
Speaker 47
20:57
to Jonathan's point, I think that we might behoove just waiting a little bit and then reevaluating at another
Speaker 45
21:09
point. So are you just talking about legislators or constitutional officers? Yes, I
Speaker 48
21:23
Thank you. May I ask, did anyone receive a letter thanking us for the attempted raise that we gave?
The correspondence that I received was 100% opposed to taking any kind of raise
Speaker 13
21:37
due to the fact of other hard-working Arkansans that evidently we had not. No, I don't think we've
Speaker 1
21:48
received any other correspondence since the last meeting. I received a
Speaker 13
21:55
couple of letters signed by many legislators stating that they were not in
Speaker 48
22:01
agreeance with having a rape at this time. Am I the only one that
Speaker 1
22:07
got that? Well, we all got letters, but was this back in February that you received these? yes okay they're a part of the record they're a part of the record they they were they were made a part of the record i think we all or in some way received that and they were put online on the website okay okay thank you
Speaker 59
22:36
thank you mr gwen madam chairman uh i agree uh with uh
Speaker 63
22:41
Vice Chair May, I also agree with Jonathan Rogers. I don't think you
Speaker 65
23:02
could explain it any better. Neither one of them did. So that's my thoughts
Speaker 56
23:07
on it right there. They both made very good points. So I'm thinking about it at this time. Thank you. So, Mr. Gwynn, just to
Senator Jane English
Unverified
23:13
be clear, are you saying wait on the legislators but give a raise to the constitutional officers?
Speaker 63
23:21
You know, I personally could go with either one of the, with Tommy or Jonathan.
Speaker 61
23:31
I think whatever we do, we need to either put it off for a couple months or, I don't know, I just, I like each point, each one made,
Speaker 63
23:42
they made good points. Okay, thank you very much. Yeah. Mr. Smith.
Speaker 70
23:52
Yes, ma'am, Madam Chair. Once I reviewed the data, it told a pretty good story. But, you know, we're, you know, Arkansas ranks among the, you know, upper median of the schedule. So I was, you know, pleased to see that we're competitive in comparison to the states around us. You know, based on that information in the spreadsheet and the letters that we received from the legislature,
I would say that, you know, my position would be to keep salaries where they are right
Speaker 45
24:36
now. For both, for constitutional officers and legislators? Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1
24:46
Okay, thank you. Okay. I'm going to withhold my, as chair, normally chairs don't get into the fray.
I just want to make one statement that has to do with the reason the Salary Commission was created. From my understanding of the reasons it was created back, what, 2014 in that neighborhood? Yeah, was because obviously it's very difficult politically to vote for yourself a raise.
And, you know, it feels a little bit like a conflict of interest, if you want to know the truth of the matter. And also, what had happened was, over the years, and we all know this, our governor was paid $32,000 a year or something. And so you were asking people who wanted to be public servants and serve the public to really impoverish their families.
Now, some people have, obviously, assets and other things, investments, where they could do that. But that would mean that those who don't are kept out of the political process because they can't afford if they need to send their kids to college, whatever. And Arkansas is not known for its high salaries. it used to be called the land of opportunity if you remember long years ago well the land of
opportunity many of us had to leave the state to make a living because we couldn't make a decent salary here now that's changing that's changing it's been changing for about 20 years now with i mean we have some of the top three top four corporations in in the nation and also in the world. So that's changing. But the point is that I
Speaker 45
27:14
understand the reason why the legislators are
making this. I am not being critical of that. I understand that it's really hard when you see your constituents suffering, whether it's from inflation, the COVID pandemic, whatever is going on that's creating economic stress. Um, and so they, they really are, um, concerned about their constituents. But I
Speaker 1
27:41
also think it's important to weigh in the balance. And once again, this
is a weighing thing. It's not an either or, um, weigh in the balance, the fact that you want to be sure, even though this is labeled a part-time legislature, we are all aware that the committee meetings go on throughout the year, which means you're not taking care of your own business at home. Whether you're in the real estate business, whether you're a lawyer, I don't
care what you are, whether you're a car salesman, then you have to come here and take care of Arkansas business. And so I would hate for us to, because of the politics of the appearance, I would hate for us not to do our job, which we were assigned because we are not in the political fray.
We are not elected. We are serving gratis here. We made that decision. And so that we could take it out of that political arena and make sure our constitutional officers and our legislators are
Speaker 45
29:14
paid appropriately for the work they're doing. Now, as you've mentioned, our legislature gets paid other for their per diem
and their transportation expenses by the mile. And so there is more money that they are getting than shows up in this
Speaker 1
29:41
chart. Those are expenses, though. those are not freebies they're expenses they're wear and tear on car driving here if you're in one corner of the state that's three hours and I don't know how much
the internet meetings I'm not sure how that's all playing out here because that would affect expenses too meaning you don't have to drive here for a meeting. But I'm not sure that can be done now. We make a big point of being available for the public to come to meetings. And so I don't really think that is having an impact in reducing expenses.
So I just put those thoughts out to put it in the context of why the Independent Citizen Commission was created so that legislators and constitutional officers would not, so to speak, take a political hit for getting a raise. whether it you know like for example if if you're a if you're a legislator and you voted for a raise
so you could get a raise and then your opponent comes along
Speaker 45
31:17
and runs against you and says oh by the way so and so voted to give himself a
Speaker 1
31:26
raise well you're never going to get a raise that way And so that's what happened here. We had this whole slew of salaries that were unbalanced. Well, we fixed that. The Citizens Commission, Independent Commission, has fixed that. And I think, as you pointed out, done a pretty darn good job of it.
So I'm in a place where I'm not really in favor of what we call a fixing adjustment, meaning we're in a good place. We don't need fixing adjustments. I just
Speaker 45
32:07
wonder about the reasoning behind not giving a 3% at this point. That's all I'm asking.
Speaker 1
32:16
What is the reasoning when we're really just doing something that is a kind of a cost of living? That's my five cents worth. Go ahead. Thanks,
Speaker 21
32:34
Madam Chairman. I think you articulated that very well. Well, personally, I think the commission is extremely important for all the reasons that you just said,
that you don't need a group of individuals, you know, approving their own races. There's nothing good about that. And I think that we work hard to do it the right way. We're not always right, but we work hard to do it the right way. And we do have different opinions on that. I think what Jonathan said is so accurate, right on target, based on where everybody is. However, I would not to compromise, I'm not looking for a compromise, Jonathan,
but I think that when you look, earlier you talked about these numbers, And when you look at the legislating salaries, they're ranked really the highest of all of ours. We're somewhere around third in the group there. And as our chairman has already mentioned, there are other payments that go with that. My guess is that would stay at three or go to two.
So we know that the constitutional officers are full-time. We know that they have the same challenges that we do relative to inflation and all those things. And I personally would be willing to recommend a 3% increase for the constitutional officers and hold steady on the legislative salaries. based on what Jonathan has articulated, which I think is very accurate,
and, Madam Chairman, on what you said relative to the purpose of the commission. So that would be my comment before making
Speaker 28
34:43
a motion. So to clarify, you think with the
Speaker 32
34:50
legislative salaries where they are, You would leave those like they are for all the reasons we've already discussed. But everybody from there over, the governor, Lieutenant Governor, AG,
you would do a 3% cost-of-living adjustment, basically. Basically, right. Yeah, I'd be happy with that.
Speaker 42
35:08
Point of clarification, if I may, Madam Chair. I actually have the live Excel spreadsheet in front of me, so if y'all want to know the actual rankings, I can do
Speaker 45
35:21
that quickly if y'all want to ask. Just FYI. Okay. Now,
Speaker 1
35:25
I am, you know, when we're looking at these rankings, to be honest with you, we
Speaker 45
35:32
know Arkansas, they get per diem, and we know that.
I don't know what these other states get
Speaker 1
35:39
other than I know they get some office expense flat, flat amounts,
Speaker 45
35:45
some of them. So, you know, saying we're ranked in a certain
Speaker 1
35:54
place, I'm just not sure what that means because I have no idea what other sources of income, I'm not talking about private sources, I'm talking about for this job as a legislator,
Speaker 45
36:11
whether it comes with, whether there are other, like for example, of course I just don't throw Texas into this at all, and here we have Florida and Georgia that are huge states with big populations, and I don't know that
Speaker 1
36:34
they don't get other benefits and income. So I'm just sharing with you that I'm, and I'm not saying I'm opposed to what is being discussed, I'm just
saying I don't know, the legislative salary side of this is so apples and oranges, and I don't know how to compare states, if you want to know
Speaker 83
37:01
I'm sorry to keep interjecting, but since I was the one that was
Speaker 39
37:05
tasked with doing this research, I can tell you that in doing the legislative salary research, every state has its own set of different per diem rules. Some of them pay different each legislative session day. It's all over the map. So while you can rank the actual salaries
here and it appears that Arkansas is at the top, I can't say that that's an accurate
Speaker 37
37:27
reflection of total compensation. Now I can't for the executives, I think they should be treated differently because you can make
Speaker 32
37:33
those comparisons. Yeah, I think to me when I look at legislators, it's like Do we feel like that's a fair wage comparable to other states for what we ask them to do? And then from that column
Speaker 85
37:44
over, it is, you know, that's a totally different subject to me.
Speaker 21
37:52
Those rankings of those constitutional officers to these beta states, I
Speaker 22
37:59
would appreciate that. Yes, sir. So what I can
Speaker 39
38:04
do is, since I have this live Excel, I can simply sort them by value. So the governor's salary, if I sort that, let's see. Arkansas ranks fourth overall in the governor's salary in the states listed.
Lieutenant Governor, I don't think, is a very helpful ranking simply because of our part-time. On the AG salary, we rank 6th out of the 11 listed. For the Secretary of State, we rank 9th out of the 11 listed. Treasurer and auditor start to become a bit more problematic because not every state has them. They do different duties, so I'll just do the treasurer. Out of the states that actually have them, and there were only 8, we rank 6th.
Speaker 42
39:00
So, and this is just my off-the-cuff observation, it seems like as you get further
Speaker 21
39:09
down the line, we get a little bit further down the list. So the adjustment that we're talking about on constitutional officers is important that we don't lose ground. Madam Chairman, I know you
Speaker 1
39:27
mentioned that. It's very important to us. Uh, any comments by, um, um, our commissioners who are on the phone?
Speaker 93
39:37
Here, Chairman Tethis, uh, Clark Smith. I appreciate you laying out the,
Speaker 70
39:43
the, the, the, I guess the framework for the purpose of the, of the commission. I mean, I understood that loud and clear, and, you know, based on your comments, I will be more aligned with Mr. May's comments as, you know, freeze, or not doing anything on the legislative right now, but the others I would not be opposed to.
Speaker 45
40:08
Thank you. Any other comments, questions, concerns? If not, I'll entertain
a motion. Madam Chairman, I
Speaker 21
40:26
would move that, based on the discussion that we've had here and based on the analytics that you were able to obtain for us, that on the legislative salaries,
we hold those fixed until our next review. And then on the other salaries, constitutional officers, that we would do a 3% increase based on, again, the analytics of those states that we have compared ourselves to.
Speaker 53
41:03
Thank you. Vice Chair, I'll entertain a second.
Second. Jonathan Rogers seconds. Any further discussion? If not, I'll
Speaker 1
41:19
call a vote on the motion. And what I'd like to do is call your name and have you vote so that it's clear. Vice Chair
Speaker 45
41:34
Tommy May. Aye. Frank Gwynn.
Jonathan Rogers. Aye. Jan Zimmerman? Aye. Clark Smith? Aye. And
Speaker 1
41:54
I vote to approve as well. So that will be the decision of the commission. Now, I'd like to ask the auditor's attorney, Mr. Fowler, to please lay out our process for implementing it.
Speaker 37
42:15
that the constitutional amendment requires that this go out for public comment period of no longer than 45 days at which point we can reconvene pass a resolution that resolution will go into effect 10 days after filing with the auditor state's office and we can file it on
Speaker 39
42:31
the same day that y'all reconvene i think historically we've looked at about 30 days as a reasonable public comment period as being shorter than 45 but adequate time for people to respond so if y'all want to schedule another meeting around that time. Right. What would that be?
Speaker 45
42:48
That would be June, mid-June, right? Say June the
Speaker 45
43:10
is a Friday and that is roughly How does that look
Speaker 97
43:17
for the other members of the commission? june
Speaker 1
43:20
60th june 60th now you'll be preparing a writing um does it need to be signed by the
commissioners or for notice purposes i believe historically it has been
Speaker 37
43:34
signed by all commissioners i don't think there's any requirement that that occurs i think it could
Speaker 1
43:42
the vice chair yeah we'll make that happen so that it's done um we need to have it yes yeah go ahead
Speaker 103
43:56
um historically we always have had all the commissioners sign the resolution
Speaker 45
44:01
you're right assuming it's approved yeah okay but what i was asking about is is the drafting of the resolution the notice is that
Speaker 103
44:15
what the notice is no um the notice would presumably be published on the website um that would be the notice to the public of the proposed salary adjustment which is the motion that was approved today right and so at the next meeting after the
public comment period there would be a prepared resolution for the commission's approval so So our minutes would be
Speaker 103
44:42
minutes and publication on the commission's website, which I believe is done by the auditor staff is the notice to the public.
Speaker 60
44:51
Okay. I just wanted to be sure, you know, sometimes there's
Speaker 1
44:56
two documents, sometimes there's one document, and I never know which is which. So we won't have to sign anything for the notice part of it.
Okay, so we will set the meeting for 10 o'clock on June the 16th, which is a Friday. I will be out of state,
Speaker 70
45:26
I'll be out of state on that date as well, but I
Speaker 45
45:35
Thank you so much. and then i will rely on the auditor's office donna and mr fowler to put the notice on the website
okay thank you is there anything further uh other than we've said any new business old
Speaker 1
45:54
business if not i will use my knuckles and adjourn the meeting Thank you.
Unknown speaker
46:32
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You
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Speakers
Speaker 1
Speaker 45
Speaker 15
Speaker 21
Speaker 22
Speaker 28
Speaker 32
Speaker 35
Speaker 37
Speaker 39
Speaker 43
Speaker 44
Speaker 48
Speaker 47
Speaker 51
Speaker 13
Speaker 59
Speaker 63
Speaker 65
Speaker 56
Senator Jane English
Unverified
Speaker 61
Speaker 70
Speaker 42
Speaker 83
Speaker 85
Speaker 93
Speaker 53
Speaker 20
Speaker 97
Speaker 103
Speaker 60
Speaker 109
Speaker 110