Joint Performance Review (JPR)

Thank you for attending this afternoon and thank you for taking time to come to the meeting Preciado specially to the members of the committee and to those that are not members I do want to put this out there that as far as asking questions if you take time to come to this meeting a chair will recognize you to ask questions of may differ to members first and then to non members but a promise you that if you are attending the meeting you will get the opportunity to ask questions okay so we appreciate you being here one thing I wanted to make an observation then we'll go to a co chair representative berry for any comments he would like to make and that is as a As the chairs is within our authority to put witnesses or anyone else under oath if we have deem that it would be beneficial to the outcome of what the committee has been called together to take under consideration and we will do that on a case by case basis we'll give you the option that if you would object to recognize you for your objection to stated we want to committee to have all opportunities to give input on all matters the final decision of course rests with chairs let's were overridden by a vote of the committee but just for the purpose of clarification it is within the authority of this committee to put people under oath and that will be the intent for the meeting today any questions about that. Okay cochaired represent very comments anything you want to thank you Mr chairman well first lesson on if need be able to serve with my my buddy is a co chair I'm looking for just my first time on J. P. R. so look forward to doing great things thank you for good all right members you have some Some things in front of first of all a consideration of the motion to authorize chairs to prove special append expenses incurred by the committee this was are allocation it was given to us by L. C. is for the remainder of this year it was ninety thousand there's about so if the two one oh four and out of state travelers ten thousand five hundred these were authorized A. L. C. so I take a motion and second to except recommendation please got a motion by Senator ray got a second but I'm sorry represent Reyes second by Senator Boyd any questions or discussion. All favor say aye. Any opposed. And then any day approval of the minutes for October twenty fourth which you have a copy those in front of you and the motion second for approval of minutes please got a motion by a representative Richardson second anybody got a second by Senator Bryant any discussion or corrections to the minutes. All favor say aye opposed. Thank you very much all right we're going to move into the item of the first of all center Payton you've requested this meeting and so the chair's gonna recognize you to of making opening comments that you'd like to make on it you're the one that seems to be proficient in the background on this soldiers going to give you latitude today recognizing that you're not a member of the committee but because you brought this before's chairs going to give you latitude to help guide us through the discussion and with that senator Payton you're recognized thank you Mr chairman thank you committee members for being here certainly appreciate this I'm a past board member for the Arkansas juniors licensing board of it was twenty years ago and I didn't think things have changed very much but evidently when this matter came to my attention it seems that things might might have changed some and and maybe as legislators we have not changed the law but but evidently some of the operations that are not following those guidelines was my concern so I did ask for this meeting so that we could react to a complaint that's been filed with the attorney general's office and the licensing board and Colonel Neil Davis is here and he's ready to give his testimony in regards to his complaint I think we have members of the Arkansas auctioneers association here feel would raise your hand to be recognized thank you so I don't know if the any of them have signed up for would like to talk about I'm sure they're available if you committee members would like to ask any questions Arkansas passed the auctioneers licensing law I think it was nineteen eighty nine and We've operated under with with the. Everything going pretty smooth with us as far as I can remember but It has not been amended much of auctioneers are required to take continuing education and two hours of that CD has to be on the law and so auctioneer stay pretty up to date on what the law is because you have to answer questions every time he takes the E. there's a test at the end of it and uh so I have. I'm going to not waste anybody's time but I would like to request that we bring colonel Neil Davis up to a explain his complaint and what he's found out about what happened occur Davis would you please come to the table in front and we have already picked up the sheet for anyone that wanted to sign up to speak for or against or about this issue I've got Kenneth Grady is or anybody else at one signed up to speak on this matter. Okay then we'll just take it that the ingredients one they'll be signed up to speak for the. Mr Davis thank you for being here today what I'd like to ask you to do Sir is up first of all would you please state your name and who you work for or how it is that you're related to the subject matter as far as any official capacity that you have and if you will there's a button right there for you when you hit that button just go ahead and hit it again and just right there there you go all right when you see the lights read you Mike is hot okay and so if you would please name and title for the record okay my name is Neil Davis I live in many Arkansas and I don't have any other Fishel title except by o'neill Davis auction realty company of BB and only I saw market called hilltop acres go the cheap hi I have formally been the president of the Arkansas ten years association for two terms and I also spent four years working with legislators and a committee that was really really good at putting this law together back in nineteen eighty seven we got beat in the legislature at that time when we came back in eighty nine in the laws that you see or most of them were passed at that time okay I don't have any other Fisher capacity accepted I can give you some history about how learned about this let's stop right there for me please I will put you under so if you would please stand. And would you raise your right hand please and would you just state your name and you very stated your employer position but we jury state your name for the record please Davis and do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god yes I will okay thank you Sir. I'm going to open up to my queue Mr Davis you filed a complaint of like to give you an opportunity just to speak to a complaint share anything you want to share with the committee and then after that we may have committee members that would want to ask you questions I'll go to the committee members first and then I'll go to the non committee members and chairs may have questions for you at that time okay yes Sir all right go ahead service chairman thank you for this opportunity to speak to the committee today thank you Mister Payton for allowing me to be here as well I would like to let you know that the way that I got involved in this I have served on this board the Arkansas last the more one term under governor Huckabee the first you know the governor Huckabee for term and was always interested in the in making sure that we as a profession our self under the law so that we can better do the things we have to do and be thought of just a little bit better than the way it was back in nineteen eighty nine the way I learned about this was I have a brother who is a fleet manager at S. auto auction in Little Rock and he called me and he said we have a situation here I need some advice on what to do we have an auctioneer this wanting to get on the block here without a license and I said well that donating that who every is because I spent forty years at that location when was the the auto exchange men are gonna auction and it S. a we always pride ourselves in having license auctioneers on on the on the board on the stands when they were selling and the it was a just a little while after I spoke with him concerning that he asked me what to do if they should allow this house and then take your license off the wall because his license suffices for this auto auction he's has license number eight but he also has a House slices for the corporation he is not an official corporate person but he is a fleet manager. And commercial accounts manager and since he's an auctioneer they use his license to do business so therefore I ask you will have he called me he said you're not gonna believe this but this gentleman Mr McGee just got a House resident license issued to him. I said how do you know this C. F. thank you tell me was by email. And I said how can this be because Mr McGee's license has been. No good since two thousand fifteen. Okay he has not had an active license since two thousand fifteen so how can this be well. He said I don't know exactly how but I do know I got a copy of this license so in doing that miss Kelly black who is also here today. She is the director of the Arkansas licensing board I got on the phone and I had called her and I ask permission from her to ask her a few questions and I ask your did you take did you issue a license to Mister McGee and she said yes I did I said did you. Did you ask him to fill an an application and she said no. I said did you do a background check Mr McGee he has had a license is two thousand fifteen no we did not get a that that either well did you give any kind of a test no did you give him a written oral exam no about C. E. no. So what happened was there none of the things that we normally do to be licensed and after a license has been expired for eight years all of a sudden. A phone call or something I don't know what initiated this but somehow another a licensee resident Lassen got sent over now I've heard it called a temporary license but there's no such thing in the law as a temporary license accepted reciprocity. So ten point three deals with a temporary license given to someone who is from out of state in this temporary license thing that's what that deals with I ask you a question what gave you the authority to give this man a license and she said ten point three under rules. Ten point three if there is there's an auctioneer from another state to slice and is in good standing with our state then they can request a temporary Lassen to do business in Arkansas under this law until they meet the rest requirements but it has nothing ten to ten six deals with reciprocity it has nothing to do with initial licensing in the state from the way I read it when you look at this the requirements and and our state stated in our laws rules we're just not meant. I want to stop here made amended and talk about since two thousand fifteen till now number one is I didn't really realize this but the law states in nine point one one on boards Rick records retention that applications for for licensure and supporting documents which would be a background check application other things that are required for licensing will be maintained by the board for a period of three years so if if that is true in a three years and they have to keep records and we issued a resident Lassen without Mister McGee filling out an application. Then how do we know that we're dealing with him where does he live what's his phone number how do you contact this man is it the same as it was back eight years ago I don't know that that will work that's not what the law says we need to do so the background check is sort in the same situation in rule number nine point four point twelve states that all individual seeking initial licensing as an auctioneer an individual seeking reinstatement of licensure as an auctioneer in the state of Arkansas shall submit to the state and federal criminal background check this was not done but if you go in the law and read further is also state's law that beginning on July the sixteenth two thousand three H. first time applicant for a license issued by the auctioneer's license board and each applicant seeking reinstatement of the lasses expired license from the board shall be required to apply to the identification bureau the Division of the Arkansas state police and national background check to be conducted by the federal bureau of investigation FBI. Concerning the Board of auctioneers there's a chairman and seven members for auctioneers for your public at large. In this case they were not consulted in this matter is last was issued without any action taken by them. They no one got all the chairman no one got a whole The members and they do not have a meeting concerning this matter they were and they were not included in these decisions and I spoke with the chairman is make sure that that was a true statement. It is the board in my opinion according to the laws we read it that the lasses are only issued by the board they are not issued by the secretary treasurer nor the what is now the director of the licensing board for the Arkansas tears Association it the law states that the board has the right to. Higher and to appoint a secretary treasurer which is now a new new title that they have the rector but I will I would just like to say that either the director is running the board or the board needs to be giving. Direction to the director but it's going to need to be one where the other and the way this all happened was aboard was totally left out of this and that's not good business on my part I don't think that that that you stand let's talk about continuing education before you can renew your license then you got to pay it to them and in this case to for reinstatement on the on the The reinstatement a clause twelve point six payment of a late penalty of two hundred dollars and submission of required continuing education C. E. is required to renew our reinstate. Is it everybody has to do there's a hundred fifty of us our numbers are some like twenty five hundred and to over two thousand and have obtained a license and there's a fifty of us left. However there was. Sorry this thank you happen in this respect we had no application we had no background check we had no C. E. you can take to one hundred dollar bills and get on the phone you call get you a license. That will work. That's reason I'm somewhat upset about this matter is that we've got a hundred forty nine other auctioneers and things are supposed to be doing. There is another remedy this however first of all I'd like to I'd like to know why I was we in such a hurry to get this license issued what it have to be done right now why do we have to just do it all of a sudden. Who said we had to do it right now exactly who said that. Who called who told who do what. Okay that's a that's a question I think you need to be really really answered. We should have probably after we kinda miss McGee had been license since two thousand fifteen then what the law says write him a letter really quick. The team over that and having to ceases this number to sending a certified mail letter making sure that he knows that his license had been revoked as they have not been renewed under all this statute concerning renewal and that he was no longer act as an auctioneer in the state of Arkansas we didn't do that either instead we we issued a license to someone. So that's the reason I'm here today I had take no pleasure in what I'm doing at all. I thought I was through this but I do know this that if someone didn't step up and take this matter into consideration who's going to this cannot be business as usual as the Arkansas licensing board that's not what we passed and beginning in eighty nine that's not what we should have today I appreciate your time this all I have to say thank you I have some questions representation. Thank you Mr so LOL I will have to call you Neal I'm sorry that's fine but of. Your understanding is. There was no application for renewal or for reinstatement. anything by Mr McGee. Well when I talk to miss black I column is blank on the phone and I ask your may I ask you a few questions and she said yes he's very polite and nice I ask those questions is in my complaint did you have them fill out an application because and all of all of the law application comes up time and time and time and time again you've got to fill out an application you'll have anywhere else to go. Two somewhere without the application but I asked and she said no he did not fill out an application that tell you what she told me okay N. of you stated that you served on the board for four years that's correct can you give us a little information on what the normal process is for somebody to get licensed normally course there's a whole long section and are the things we talk about here today making application getting a. Background check is is part of that in fact the initial licensing when you get a background check if you let it go sixty days or longer you've got to get another background check here we go eight years but you gotta senator to be to picture you got in the different fees that it takes the office the three hundred dollars for the the recovery fund for the last in the fee and Hendren for something else and I'm thank you here in this area right now on that but isn't there a verbal test and written test you do set for a written test and you do said do do take an oral exam to know that you can be a call and say one two three four five sold in excess and a ten point opening speech so that when you walk out to your auction you're able to communicate to your audience all the things is required in the law that buyer's premium about the terms and conditions of the auction and all these things are necessary in in that's what you're tested on. And So when somebody makes application. And they're tested yes who conducts the testing is that the secretary of the borders that the board members well the the board is convened at that time and they're basically they're they're a normal your oral exam is given by the chairman or one of its members but that she as since the in the in that process the secretary does but well I'll just take a short cut here basically all of those licenses are issued by the board well the the law says that exactly the only the board issues license no one else does and it's actually board members there conducting the exam that's exactly right yes yes Sir okay is anybody else my asking questions of echo yes that we give them a push by Mike at five in the queue and members before I go down the list you can find the rules at the Arkansas auctioneers licensing board website if you got your device you will go find them Arkansas auctioneer licensing board website the rule link is on the left side of the page under law and rules if any questions about that. Okay in order we're going to start off with the representative Richmond. Thank you Mr chair. Sir during your conversation with miss black she ever indicate as to why she issued this license the way she did was she directed was a suggested what she asked this year indicate anything along that line now the only question I ask your concerning that was what gave you the authority to issue that license and she said ten point three as under rules and that was the only thing that you said to me at that point I had just re read the law and I knew the ten to ten six dealt with the rate reciprocity agreement made with other states and I shook my head I did not comment to her on the phone about that we never did discuss anything further about it all right thank you yes Sir thank you Mr welcome a co chair senator Josh Bryant. Thank you Mr to to your knowledge do you know of any previous. License holder a hundred forty nine the that the executive has. Waived fees application process testing process no I don't and that has been a question I've been asked by other auctioneers that I spoke with about this matter the question begs the question of has this been done before and I was surprised in my response to that is I certainly hope not. No we don't we don't know for sure that but I don't I don't know of any other case this like this no okay thank you thank you Mr all right thank you of. But sure run going on Bills to representative within. Thank you Mr chairman Mr Davis of I'd like a little clarification on the did the the fleet manager contacted you. Did he hear from the board that day that he the a new license has been issued okay within hours of the conversation or do a couple of days pass or how quick did that happen the on the date upon my complaint I think is April the twenty six or something like that. that morning they were in a tizzy apparently trying to get this license thing figured out in the in the fleet manager is my brother and he called me said what shall I do right now he doesn't have a license and I said don't let him on the block we've never had anyone on the block like that we're not in that is if if he does get management the general management of the auction allows it you get on the phone and you call the licensing board and tell them that your license is no longer valid for what happens if that option because you're not only responsible for it go you advise otherwise. Then he called me back in not very long said you're not gonna believe this but will at I've got a copy of the resident license. And I said you what it is I've got a full fledged resident lasses ag I think it was sent by email I'm not sure clear on that but he said I've got it right here I'm looking at it now so you gotta be kidding then following the following day is when I call misplay okay but but the fleet manager called choose your other call to told you the situation and he told Mister McGee that he could not take the block that do the telling the after the conversation he told him he could not take one without a license okay so within minutes of your original conversation with Mister Davis you got a call or email with our he got an email with the license has been issued right within a matter of minutes that's correct and if I understand correctly the license has been boarded. Because he had not renewed in twenty fifteen is that correct well the glasses is it. There's just to be probably some discussion concerning that matter normally when your lasses are not renewed you Greek you receive a cyst and cease and desist letter telling you no longer act as an auctioneer until you do renew then there's a section in there about a hundred twenty days or so that you've got some leniency to go get things done and pave the more penalties and renew your license and I'm not really clear on all that I have to go back and re read it but you can regain your lasses but it's been so long ago that no it should be considered as as one that is no longer active at all that he should not even I mean and we know for a fact that he's been selling options all this time okay so that that's that would be my next question in twenty fifteen until the fleet manager was notified by email or however there's a lot to license has been issued right. Mr McGee had operated with outside the room of the rules and regulations of the auctioneer board having forty I believe for the auction locations or a you are correct Sir thank you thank you Mr chairman. Welcome next a representative when. Thank you Mr chair thank you for being here today and for shedding some light on this was wondering if at just for the benefit to help us appreciate the importance of this topic would you mind kind of taking us a couple steps back and help us understand the potential hazards of having an unlicensed auctioneer. Yes Sir back before eighty I will go back to eighty nine okay before that. I was president of the Arkansas tears Association I would get calls from the secretary of state's office and everyone no was I Neil Davis and what I go visit with this lady or this man of this John or this farmer back in the eighties farms were really tough we had just had a farm sold two hundred some thousand okay we have no escrow accounts the auctioneer took the money paid off all his debts file bankruptcy the farmer holy lady loses her husband sells everything she got six months later she has no income visible income because her husband just died the auctioneer still hasn't paid or six months later so in the law we have a time element that you've got a pair and also escrow accounts and there's not one of those but there's a lot of that that I could I could probably talk to you about for some time of things that we would go visit with auctioneers that did not have a license that when we had the licensing and I'll I would do is just be man enough to say you to pay the lady or you pay the manner we're going to see. We got a good lawyer will do that. And can unlicensed auctioneers B. I mean is there a way of bonding or any what a way of guarantees beyond that I'm just trying to help appreciate what we're doing what we're dealing with here with a license versus nonlicensed. Well we've got a recovery funds so when someone is harmed by an auctioneer today according to the board in their decisions that they may thank you get up to five thousand I believe it is in in in awarded to them for the harm that was done them during the course of business but but there's what has happened to us as we have been able to I thank since we are Lassen we have more of a profession we have the ability to reciprocate with other states we've got a lot years working taxes in Tennessee and and and and Kentucky and and Mississippi and Louisiana Missouri and Oklahoma really not license states but they we have a lot of that is so much nicer to be able to reciprocate with the states and be able to do business in the auto auction where I worked for all these years we it was not uncommon for us to sell seven to ten million dollars for the cars in a day okay so that's pretty big business well there needs to be a real or two in place there we we always pride ourselves in not having someone who is going to be working for us it is going to quote cheat the public we will the public here I mean it's almost unreal that we're sitting here saying give us laws so we can be better at what we did that's what we did we we felt that there was such a need for us to be a better group of people and to do our business in an upright and have rules and regulations ago by the way what's happening back in those days another reason was every day every day bankruptcy judge in Arkansas was convinced that there was only about three three option years that could actually hold a bankruptcy auction when you would talk to him and try to gain that business you were just out left field because you are qualified. Licensing put every auctioneer on the same level ground that got a salsa starting place now tell me what you're going to lose your license. Thank you thank you Mr. Represent eleven. Thank you Mr we're Mr Davis and. So very evident that you've got a wealth of knowledge and experience in this state by a I understand what I'm reading your auctioneer license number one so I think that's a testament to the years you've you've put into this just a few questions for just some clarity make sure the committee understands we're talking about here what as I read through your your letter of complaint and then to the statement that was attached I just a little confused. Is the complaint against the board isn't against miss black or is it against Mister McGee you know Sir when I wrote that. My complaint was against Mr black and Mr McGee as well the board had no knowledge of this and I even checked with the chairman to make sure that they did or did not because again that that was that was now I'm not after getting into this somewhat I'm not really convinced totally about. miss black because I didn't talk to her enough to really know however what she told me that date if she did on ten three and there's something else that they going to offer me now and I don't know how I'm going to feel about that because ten three four she hung her head on that's read she did what she did. If there's somebody else or something else I'd like to know if. But it made ten threes what you said Allen she came about this so that so the issue is more so of the process yes of of how the license was obtained not the fact that he was issued a license that well he should have been issued a license I have no axe to grind with Mister McGee I'm known as family done business with them for forty years I wouldn't care who it is okay but this is what the process is a gritty behind the law is exactly yes when we lose that eighty we have a law or we don't have so I'm I'm really I'm not familiar with. The auto side of the auction and but I have over the last few years been to several events yes where Mister McGee has has donated I guess you'd say his time to raise hundreds of thousand dollars charitable organizations for that so based upon the professional licensure of the. Archer licensing board in the purpose of the law. With what he's done over the last few years at these charitable organizations. It is he operating illegally in in what he's doing and serving in those capacities no in it when he does a for profit nonprofit or a benefit auction they are exempt in the law if you read the law exempt that is well as several other things under exemptions he can go it is many of those he wants but he's running I forty auto auction. That is a option where you have to forward titles from one person and I would guess that he's got his dealer's license up okay but somehow we forgot the all the other license which is the auctioneer last part of that okay so again back to the process again I applaud him for raising money for cancer for all these things he does I applaud him I think that's great I'm I and I and I like I said I have no axe to grind with him but the but the process of how he got this license is not good this is a sour note with a lot of folks that are auctioneers okay thank you Sir appreciate appreciate clarity yes Sir Mr up let me ask you one quick question for go back to members if a person. Is eight auctioneer licensed and they are performing an auction where they are not collect any any fees for their services such as the charity auction that you mentioned while ago the. They they are they obligated to have a license to to do that no you can if you could do that but well yeah you can do it anyone can do it as long as you're not doing it for a for a fee you're not charging a fee in your perfectly good to donate your time do you sell your own product you can sell for other ducks unlimited Baltar confederation just go ahead name any organization is a nonprofit and you're exempt by the law thank you if you if you start charging a fee for things that's a different story all right so to your knowledge during the time of which Mr McGee did not have a license and he was doing all these volunteer options for charities he was not actually breaking the law because even though he maybe didn't have a license he was a collecting the fee for any of those things two nine I don't know if the collective fear not but to my knowledge you would be my assumption that he was doing that out of the goodness of his heart except but him conducting other options outside of that it is a license and you know if there were any options conducted outside of the US during which she didn't have a license that you collected a fee for yes Sir okay all right we're up to Our represent Springer. Thank you Mr good afternoon I I just want some clarity I've made by Mrs so can you tell me whether or not the board has hurt your complaint or not it has your complete bid been actually before the board I guess my question they tell me I've been told that that meeting is on June nineteen. And I've asked I've call the secretary's office and asked to be placed on the agenda as well. Thank you. Okay members just so you know where we are of got in the key of got member Sullivan member Dismang. Member Payton and represent with because you've asked questions before you'll be you'll be next I got four on the board just give me a idea where we are so right now going to go to Senator Solomon. Thank you Mr I'm back over here thank you so the evidence going through and looking at around the nation states that have rules some have. Very few rules some allow that to be done at the state level or the county or city level seems to be all over the board on regulations by states most requiring some sort of bond make sure your bonded who yes ma'am this is just a guess for where would you say Arkansas ranks as far as our were licensing criteria are we more regulated less regulated about average or do you even know well I would I would certainly take a stab at that in fact to do the licensee procedure back in eighty seven through eighty nine we met with anybody from the state of Kentucky the Commissioner there we met with Cameron some out of Mississippi we met and talked to people out of Louisiana and in the state of Texas Mike Jones on that last in the board and what we did was to make our lives is the same so we could reciprocate with each other and we held that we will require what your state requires us to do and we require your member your your applicants to do the same in our state so essentially our laws are pretty much the same please there's not a whole lot of difference in him the only thing that states are doing today that I find is like Texas they require Arkansas can years to take two hours of Texas law because you're going to be in their state was smart of Arkansas would do that same thing here that's something we're not doing that to my knowledge because I did hold a Texas license deal recently but with things like that is the only difference I can say would be between one side or the other states like Missouri has little County license like Arkansas used to have when do do business you would need seventy five licenses Missouri's that way the only thing they did was make it a statewide event but they have no enforcement wing of their law Oklahoma has nothing so having so if I started a report so just from my understanding it sounds like we're pretty. Consistent with several states but some states to have none are you familiar with states like Oklahoma who have no regulation are they having big problems there you know I can't speak for Oklahoma I don't know but if they don't have a license I will say they've got problems with all our might say they don't know what it was nose okay thank you thank you Mr Senator Dismang. It's any probably said it but so if someone is auctioning without a license what is the consequence to that I mean I'm I'm. Is it the board discretion orders or I mean is it pretty well state any may not know the answer in the yes Sir I do in the end gate up to one thousand dollars in fines okay is in the law is that has been done before with the company that use on Lassen option years and they were they agreed to settlement outside of the hearing. Back when I was on that board four thousand dollars that's the maximum penalty for that so the maximum penalty for someone not taking time to get a license is a thousand dollar using the last location thank. Sir Payton. Thank you Mr and I apologize I probably won't remember everything but of I would like to ask. If if we could send word to the house of representatives and see if colonel Roy Ragland. Is available to come over to testify he recently renewed his license after a lapse of ten years I'd like the committee to hear what he had to go through to get his license back. but if it if it would be closer I'd like to send a request for him to come over and then I'll continue with with some other things. Members I'd like for you to know you visualize senator Payton yes just for the second time the chair doesn't mind sending that request over but I would ask that Mr Ragland be allowed to check with Speaker of the house sure a relations independent but I respect for the structure of the House of like Speaker Shepherd to be involved in that conversation is staff would notify Mr Ragland please and then subject to them being able to talk I think that be appropriate I think so too in and if you can't come that would be fine to go ahead but I'd like some of the questions about whether or not the licenses necessary or should be necessary obviously there's a fairness issue that if one option here is required to go through a certain procedure to be licensed then that should apply to all auctioneers and not not be preferential treatment for one of the other I fought against the auctioneer Arkansas two years license law in nineteen eighty nine colonel Davis and I were on opposite sides of that fight I didn't see the need for it at all and then governor Huckabee appointed me to the board I think it was in Nineteen ninety nine or thereabouts. And I sit on the board I saw the examples as as. Mr Davis is said about. People who have been robbed and mistreated by option years an auctioneer has a fiduciary responsibility like many other professions you're handling other people's money and you have to be familiar with contractual law because you're dealing with contracts and it is important that a person conduct that business properly or the general public can be harmed financially by the misdeeds and mistakes of an auctioneer and so I came to appreciate over the years the the need for the testing and for the license for the education on the front end I still. Don't like the idea that we do continuing education. As but if we're going to require that of one we should require that of all and now. In this case when colonel Davis called me on that Thursday morning after you found out what he had found out. I think he might have actually suspected that I had a hand in getting the getting the license for the man of what it was two days prior to that I have gotten a call from one of our colleagues that wanted to help Mr review get a license and I knew I was an auctioneer and knew I was familiar with it and the. So I said well what I was on the board twenty years ago there was no way we could of fast tractor driving a license but I'll call the president of the board. And all of find out if anything has changed and I did call the president of the board and and nothing had changed in the process to get a license renewed and so I called our colleagues back and said no there's nothing that has changed so I was shocked two days later to get the call finding out that Mister McGee had obtained a license somehow. I again taught. To the president of the board who was also shot and had no prior knowledge of this license being issued and so my question at this point. To Mr Davis I think you spoke to the president of the licensing board Nick Feller planned on being here today and and be here but this is not the court of law. I thank I think it's within the realm of reason for you to share with the committee what he told you about this license being issued and what what knowledge the board had. Well I I did speak with Mrs miss may that I did speak with Mr valor and I he is chairman of the board and I ask him specifically did he have anything to do with issuing this license in fact he said no he actually didn't actually know it would be issue I said what about your board members it is any of y'all didn't have any kind of board meeting or nothing over this matter and he says no they did not were not consulted whatsoever so based on that I then informed him well based on what I have found out concerning how this was being and I'm going to consider filing a complaint because this is this is just not what we need to be. With with our license procedure or a new procedure or reinstatement procedure in call it whatever you want to do that but when someone's not been license for eight years then the whole process needs to be gone back through that's what we discussed and then one more thing before we bring up the next person to testify but your brother works at the auction house we're Mr McGee presented his newly obtained a license. What was the word coming from your brother as to how he obtained that license he didn't he did not know how he obtained a license the only thing that he knew was he had a copy of the was sent over by email I believe I still believe that and he he had a copy of a Arkansas resident lasses. And in he asset well it what it does it really say is a full fledged deal in the CS is is an Arkansas resident license and that he did not know how he got it I think he may or may have not have spoken with miss black but I I would have to refer you to hammer R. one know that they did speak but I know my I did check to see if it had he had one or did not have one because my advice to him was do not let him on the block unless general management says you must and you do then I gave a remedy for that while ago call the office and telling you no longer will allow your lasses we use their okay thank you yes Sir. A quick question for you. Can a license to be issued. Without board approval but let me say this part of the basis of your complaint is that the license was issued. But the justification for issuing that license was under the point reference of a ten point three And your position is at ten point three did did not give authorization for the board to be bypassed in issuing the license is that correct there is no temporary license to give a auctioneer other than through reciprocity in in in in that section okay when the law was written we wrote it and put it in that section so that we can work with out of state auctioneers because other states also had that same in their licensing okay all right yes man next up on list representative would. Mr chairman of are you over the long wait to see if Mr Ragland can come over or we're going to question the miss black or what one will miss black testify or come up. Sure so Mr Ragland is on his way I received messages on his way I have you in the queue that I have representative Richmond and then senator love and that completes everybody that's on the board what the chair would do I think we'll probably if Mr Ragland gets in the room we're going to take him first because I think you'll speak to the process of getting license after which then the chair will call Mr black up to testify thank you Mr thank you representative Richmond. Thank you Mr chair back over here again. Miss Davis the testimony I've heard today it would appear that Mr McGee has been auctioning without a license and has collected fees or how he gets paid for that which is if I understand correctly is something he's not supposed to be able to do. And that that's going on for I don't know the year several years whatever it might be. What to your knowledge was he ever find the thousand dollars or held accountable in any way you for not having the proper credentials to do those kind of options. To my knowledge he's not been find anything under this system set up in the licensing law. Is a the situation that I don't agree with it in that you must have someone who will be willing to file a complaint against someone before you can investigate someone. Although in the law if you read the law he said the board upon his own motion may investigate somebody. And I'm not sure that someone on this board didn't know that because again if the if the board secretary or board chief board chairman has access to records you will know who is and who isn't license. Now what gets me here is that over these years I've been in the same places with Mr McGee when he was a doing things in I never knew you didn't have a license. such as coming to conventions to be a member of the Arkansas tears Association by thanking is and they can correct me thank you you need to be alive socks here to be a member of that are you be you're an associate member yeah he will interact with this there so I'd like to I went to the wedding the bride didn't ask me the granted at speed but I ate the cake and it was pretty doggone good. That kind of deal but the thing about is he's conducted auctions we know that there's there's that's not a question he owns I forty auto auction and he's got to have a bigger slices the that the former titles and that is not for a fundraiser that is for profit and there's been other outside options as well and I'm not I can't be more specific than that but I know for a fact and so he is conducted auctions of committee to me this that's resides that I'm the of don't enjoy this at all but somebody needs to step up and say Hey enough for this okay if you haven't had licenses two thousand fifteen you need to cease and desist are you need to get a license and I'm I'm number one guy in Arkansas will tell you I'm for everybody having a license that wants one just do it the right way I'm for licensing we try to write this law also would be difficult to get one. We try to rise so that if you missed affect where you were you were spying for it okay but the thing about it is is is it is which one situation where no one ever turn to complain Mr McGee so he just got on year after year after year. Coming to conventions you know that they're having a continuing education course every year. And first eight years he had any city so that's another bomber okay. Follow Mr yes. DO not not really having any experience or knowledge about the options and things just how stiff is the competition for. What he is getting ready to come in and start doing with this license that you disagree with I mean is that cutting out board members or anybody else from having that job as far as you know no not that I know of so nobody's going to lose business in any way because he's now there okay I'm not pulling your question Sir well I mean. Do you know of anybody out there that's saying that should be my job that would not not particularly no I think every auctioneer keeps her head down and does what they do they don't pay a whole lot of attention to what other auctioneers are doing I mean we we are in a committed competitive business we do seek the same business but I don't think we make an issue out of whom has lasses and who don't and if if if you look at auction that means I didn't get it looked at I mean I should have got it bill how may not be able to compete with you you may be a better operator than I am you may have more knowledge than I do you may have a bigger that you will be well known in the community but that than anything I don't believe to do that I appreciate that yes Sir thank thank you thank you Mr you're welcome up missed Davison Mantia question I just a minute ago I think as to if you were aware that in the time that Mr McGee's license had been lapsed if he had done auctions some of which were for nonprofits of which it your understanding testimony that he did not charge any but then I ask you also if you knew if he had conducted auctions of which he had receive compensation if I remember correctly your response was yes that you had knowledge that he had conducted auctions without a license during the time which is licensed relapse is that correct that is correct Sir did you ever at any time knowing that he was violating the law filed complaint at that time or seek to have him charged with the thousand dollar fine and if not why not okay no Sir I would bet my farm that he had a license I'm sorry I said I would have bet my farm that he had a license because no one knew he didn't have one there was no reason that's what I said about going to the wedding. He A. operated as though he had one and no one we don't we just don't automatically question someone about their losses all time he used eighteen oh eight eighty noise on that last sheet in your comply in the complaint he claimed that he was the director of the Arkansas licensing for which he never served on that eighteen oh eight number state upon options it if you if you see an auction company with something on auctionzip and hears about all about the auction down the bottom is here's my last number number eighteen oh eight in its own there you don't question that but if you get online and pledge Gayla McGee I forty auto auction or double M. auction over lone oak and you by separate or say no license or did. Indeed then you go wait a minute here's eighteen oh eight showing on all this advertising which is deceptive practice because you don't have eighteen oh eight it's been gone for a while but here's another problem the Secretary gave him back eighteen oh eight in every other case in Arkansas that I know of his this is been going on thirty years when your license lapse you get the next number up you do not get to keep the old number is revoked. You go to the next number it is in the twenties two thousand series right now and that didn't happen either there's just a lot of things wrong with this our next up is Senator love. Thank you Mr. I'm over here to your to your left. So so Mr Neal I'm I'm listening to all the testimony. And I I hi. I think I hear you're repeating it the gentleman doesn't have a license. Is that is that correct say that again Sir I didn't get that why Hawks I can't hear you repeat the gentleman doesn't have a license does he have a license or does he not have a license or is it the fact of how he got his license what I mean like which which one is it okay I because I'm trying to follow the conversation two thousand and fifteen he did not have an active Arkansas resident license until April the twenty sixth or seventh which is ever and complain about fifteen minutes till nine o'clock limit is able twenty seventh of twenty twenty three twenty twenty three he did not have a license active license till the end okay it was renewed by the office. In time which now he has a resident license without going through any of the procedures that you normally go through in reinstatement or in renewing a license okay thank you we have to do to do that our application background check background check background check C. E. those three things are essential to getting a new license and that is in my field all right so now with with with those facts being said. And you found a complaint with the board of auctioneers yes I did okay in the Board of auctioneers just just I guess for my four for the record Mister chair is is is that on the department of labor now or is that on the. My understanding subject to being corrected under department licensing the labors that corrects the yes I'm getting ahead not that is correct okay in so did you turn your complaint into the auctioneers board in the department of labor or did you just turn into the auctioneers were mailed the complaint to the auctioneers licensing boards by certified mail okay in so now are they are they going to Hewitt are they hearing your complaint they will hear the complaint on June nineteen okay so we're we're just a little ahead of that okay aren't this that's what I want to understand so here's what it in the end you he stated that nobody on the board knew that the license was issued. Yes Sir that's correct okay. Did any of the board members take any action against this bill. No one to my knowledge is take any action at all they to my knowledge they have not made or anything according to their chairman. They have not met according to their chairman. However you you state the miss black operating. With home outside of for Thorgy I will once again that may be to be determined there because again who has the authority does the law says the board or the one that issues licenses this advice is not issued by the board or the by the direction of the board it was done some other way. And I don't know how it got done I mean that's why I'm here and maybe somebody could tell me has got the okay so Mister chair how soon we gone here for miss black is a I guess that's going to be the the question in a. If if their board members see I guess we need to hear from the board members to because. So I'm I'm I'm struggling with the fact that our committee this not that I don't know what Mr black I mean Mr Davis is saying is correct but I do want to hear both sides of the story so that we can really better understand that yes Sir and as I said just a minute ago the order's going to be that we will conclude as soon as the Board clears which now I've got three to finish up and then of a pregnant draw the line after these three so we can move on I will let me conclude my testimony I just jump out of the queue I want to hear from this bill at okay and then we'll transfer your question after after these three there on the board then we're going to hear from Mr Ragland and then we'll call up missed black after that to my knowledge there are no board members in the room of my correct on that anybody board member okay so in answer to your question there was a board member that was invited but I think the question was answered while goes wide of the board president is in here okay so with that we're gonna move on to Senator board. Thank you Mister chair Mister Davis I think you said this but I will be very clear so that I understand the board only responds to complaints is not proactively looking for people who are holding auctions without they don't have inspectors or somebody they sent out the options make sure that licenses they're just purely a complaint driven board is that correct. Okay to be very honest with you I'm not that familiar with how they operate on a daily basis now when I was on the board we had an investigator and one complaint came in they sent investigator to investigate whatever it might be but today I'm not sure that is true but the board under the law under his own motion has the right to go investigate the board and and I'm with would say would be the chairman or board member I don't know which is a in the law does allow for that but I don't know what they're investigation arm of the board is today I have no idea. Representatives. Hang on a representatives to go ahead and but thanks a representative anchor acres sorry if you if you agree push but we lost off the border. All right hang on. Representatives if the issue but again would you are thank you Mr chairman. Just real quick you have mentioned a time or two that the miss black used ten point three as her defense and why she granted this license and it mentions temporary and provisional licenses under what cases what a temporary license and or a provisional license be given not not to correct you service ten three ten three yes okay if a out of state auctioneer this in good standing with their state request Arkansas reciprocity to be able to do business in this state prior to a licensing terms they have the right to do that under temporary license that's the only place in the law that I know of the temporary lasses mission is for that purpose and that purpose only it's not for initial licensing or renewal Sir difference between a temporary and a provisional I don't know I have had hi in fact in the thirty years that I've been familiar with the board I don't know if anyone is ever used thank you have never met that person yet. Okay and and I want to we've handed out a copy of these ten three ten one ten two German referencing I want to the very first thing says on ten three dash one the board shall issue a temporary and provisional license immediately upon receipt of the application so my question is in order for temporary or provisional license to be issued that can only be issued by the board. Yes okay. Okay all right representative acre. Thank you Mr Mr Davis so following the timeline here Mr McGee's. Appropriately lawful license expired in twenty fifteen that's correct. And then on April twenty seventy presented to an auction. Without a license your brother requested one. Yes he ask for before any auctioneer is allowed to get up in sell at that facility they have to have a copy of their license on file that's been the rule there since nineteen eighty four when the place was built and that was on April twenty seventh one that was that day on a Thursday yeah I believe that's correct and then. On or about nine AM of the same day the license for this individual. She was issued by the board it was it wasn't issued anytime was issued by the board or was issued by the Director director yes. So this license didn't exist until the license needed to exist and that's is that again it appeared to him through an email I believe and that's how you got a copy of the license is the issue day on that license April twenty seventh I I can't tell you that I don't I don't know that would be true but he got up that morning I don't know exactly what time it was a she issued by the director is there a way for us to find out what the issue date of this licenses I'm sure there is okay it should be the the office should have that thank you. All right members would clear the board so I'm gonna ask Mister Davis if you would please stepped away from table I do have a question though you've been referred to as kernels that from your time servicers that no Sir okay I I appreciate to being called colonel but the during the civil war and after the civil war auctioneers had to be is status of at least the colonel to be miss to auctioneer and disperse the spoils of the war and that's an honorary title is given to anyone the graduates from auction schools across the nation which there are several in that is an honorary title hi you will hardly ever hear it anymore there used to be used extensively but I'm not a colonel in the military I was I was in the army he served our country proudly okay thank you well in knowledge Memorial Day we appreciate your service all right so Mr Ragland you're in the room could we get your front center to table please. Our. Colonel shoot me. All right. Regular would you please state your name please and would you identify your employer for the record please. Roy Ragland and by the way I took believe to be over here so okay the only body thanking them here and here it's chief of staff for the house of representatives I'm here's Colonel Ragland as well okay all right and is duly noted you are here at the request of the committee and excels Act have appreciate your of caution that you've excise also did you consult with Speaker Shepherd and yes it is permission to be here at I absolutely did that are very good would you please stand up which in under oath please would you please stand. Would you state your name please Roy Ragland do you solemnly swear and affirm the traditional you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you god at a thank you Sir if you would please be seated. Senator Payton you requested Mr Ragland I want to go to you first. Thank you Mr chair and certainly appreciate you coming over Colonel Ragland yeah. But just be honest we will probably keep is pretty short but I saw your Facebook post a few days ago about having a budget of renewed or obtain your license and it made it obvious that had expired and and that you would renew and maybe a little bit nervous knowing that this meeting was coming up and all your connections that you have. Would you mind telling the committee how the hell did you call the licensing board and I ask what you needed to do and what were you tell. yes I did do that I. I guess a little background I let my license lapse probably in twelve or thirteen. By the time I come to work for the House school time. And my the subsequent that my mother and my. Mother in law and eventually my father well ended up in the nursing home and we were just add up so much that I just. I didn't feel like it I could ever. Continue to hold option so I let it lapse in then probably back in January I had a neighbor asked me if I still auctioneer and I said no I let license lapse. And then he told me that you know you don't have option so my nephew is still auctioneer and It's what does to be honest this pretty good option so I contacted the the border the auctioneer's license board and they tell me you know what I need to get online and. Look at the requirements and fill out the application which it did and you know the staff for the background check and then state police down a background check. And then once again that the fees and stuff for that then I went over they set a date and I think a reception right of us when and we took the written exam. And then I have to take the written exam they Clower colonel Nick valor co who's chairman of the board combing bank and we had to do the oral part. We're like Mr Davis said you. You sale item but you also have to go through the process of saying this is a nonstate Salem Roy Ragland auctioneer number three thousand two. or you know go through the whole process and so in a couple weeks and I got notified that. The miss black notified minimization is very nice. To me NYC Valerie for an estimate so. they notified me that I'd. had passed the test or a so then I had paid my you know you have paid a hundred dollars testing fee of believe it is hundred dollars to the to the funding in a hundred dollars for the license so. That's basically it I went through the process got a license in. I'm license them three thousand and two. My old license was twenty two oh one and. I kind of wanted that license bank but I let that drop I just said just I respect whatever licensing yes this all have license there you go. So did you inquire as to whether or not you can have the old number back. Yes and that's that was that's a decision that the board would make on the board when going to meet. I don't think in time I needed a license before they were going to meet so so similar words. You contacted the board you'd contacted miss black I guess yes the director of the board you ask what you do is you directed you to the website well how long did it take you from that day until you got your license well I had to wait that was probably in March but I had to wait till they had a a lot Is testing schedule no they they do a test every three four months whatever it is and so I had to wait till they had a time when the test. When I could take a test there but yes which is what I need and then you have to wait and see if the you pass the test and do all that stuff and then they notified me in a couple weeks you know that pass the tester my. Lassen being granted or whatever and then I pay the fees and that I could get my licensing. I appreciate that all that anybody else wants to ask you a question nobody else is lined up to ask any questions until just now and that would be center Dotson. Thank you Mr chair Mr Ragland. So I'm just trying to go through the process of reinstating your license was it more or less difficult in getting an original your original license. I would say is by saying well. I guess I'd say is about same same test as far as I know. Okay same Richey I'd take a written test that do oral test back in two thousand nine when I originally got my license so so there other say was same thing really wasn't any expedited process for. If you started from the very beginning getting a license not I would. I would venture a guess that some of the guys some of the people that were there I can attest that they probably will get new license as well okay is the same so they was going through the same process I was I don't know that for a fact but I just assume someone had never had a license for and your license when the little lapses in good standing there wasn't any yes his or anything like that so to my knowledge no is seem to recall a state statute that requires boards and commissions to make an expedited process if you just get it reinstated if you previously held in Arkansas license so um well I'm surprised they're not giving you a master prop or we're not getting a better process for reinstatement well it was it was not in my opinion a rigorous process I mean that they it's pretty cut and dried and so as follows the steps and did what I was asked to do an. Okay got it. In and what is the significance of having to of the number like why that was just it was kind of sentimental I was well regional number you know I would anywhere close to number one like. Colonel Davis is but I'll just twenty two oh one and that's way ahead of a lot of folks number three thousand and two I'm probably about the last one the last one thank you but I I wanted that I'd rather have three thousand and to then have to wait. Till July are June middle of June miss this June third option and we'll get. K. your license is not temporary provisional years as a. Permanent well that year you said whatever you say it's good till July first and then we have to renewal in you know for the next year from July first to June thirtieth twenty twenty four get the full value of the year you know you didn't have the full year that's right but I knew that going in. K. dot of represent Springer. Thank you Mr chair Carol Ragland how are you this act right. Last thank you I just want to know did you have to submit any information with respect to continuing education at this as I understand it before I'm a new man I'll have to have. The continuing a. I have taking continuing ed back every year while I was a license may affect Mr Davis is on my instructors once okay would you in a you were a new without the continuing education however in order to continue I got this license without a without having to go to a class but I'll have to go to one. Immediately after July thank. Survey as I understand it by the way survey thank you Mr so on the continuing a question you had to take the test instead the written test and or a verbal test instead of proving that he had C. on the significance of your name of your auction license number. Please share with the committee all the places you have to use your number in advertising and contracts and logo your letter head logo's and and things like that I mean if you had. A lot of that with your old number on it wouldn't you have yeah you read that well yeah now but I really don't have a lot of that old stuff left but if I did I'd have to get rid of it as I advertise on options if I have to use my my number of five have business cards any anywhere I'm advertisement this show that. so it could be more than just sentimental value well yeah I guess so thank you to. Fortunately I didn't have much that stuff pre planned preprinted cell right now is a lot there thank you last question is this when you you made the statement amid going answer questions as you understand. Right you as a auctioneer if you have a question where you need clarity as far as what the rule is or how the rules entertainer how the law is or how the laws turpitude do you go to the director or do you go to the board president in order to get what you feel you need. As a comfort level to be able to perform within your duties to the requirements of the law. Well I'm. I feel comfortable going to either to To the director or to the chairman of the board or. even the auctioneers association which is separate from all that are expected they'd have those answers but I. I would probably call the director first OR. You know. I would expect that the board or I call the board I would expect that they'd be able to get me the correct information to all right thank you for being here today if you hang around medication he'd come back up if you got time or we'll call you back over if you go back to the office okay. Thank you thank you thank you all right of miss black would you please come to the table. Represent would you have a question for the chair. I have a question on this bill Recca to appropriate to okay thank you thank you. All right Mr each one of you all want to just go ahead for them for the moment go ahead and state your name and your title for the record please. Goodness what Kelly black director of the professional geologists and auctioneers licensing boards. Steve young part part of labor licensing. I'm Dan Parker on the chief legal counsel for the department of labor licensing okay here's licensing board is one of our many licensing entities okay very good your plea Sam official under legislation. First of all let me take one by one okay Steve stage name for record please. A hitch button there which I appreciate your buttons. Singapore thank you so much wherein the test or you've got to give the truth the whole truth not that treats the PGA thank you Mr black when you state your name for the record please black thank you do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you god. Thank you and Dan your name for the record please Dan Parker thank you do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony about to give me the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god yes Sir thank you Joe please be seated misplay I want to defer to you first and what we'll do is I'm going to what you just respond to first of all to the things have been said and then we'll take questions from the committee if there any questions from the committee so UT misplaced FOR anything you'd like to share yes Sir thank you committee chairman appreciate you letting us come here today. one thing I do want to address is the temporary license that we talked about that we've issued the license wasn't issued as a temporary license it was just a renewal so that temporary provision when I spoke to Mister Davis was incorrect. Under let me ask you real quick and what what to. Number does the. You said was a provisional temper would you say it was not temporary the license was just renewed. Where where is it in the rules of the law as far as the renewal of a license in I don't I don't have that off the top of my head I apologize Dan Dan. Yes thank you I want to address that and that's the million dollar question obviously. what hasn't and brought out is the fact that there's a Supreme Court decision says you can't revoke a professional license without given a licensee notice and an opportunity to be heard when this. For lack of better word mass was hit our desk we did our homework we did issue this license lightly I mean we mad about this and I did my legal research and because the person requesting renewal had never been given we had no record that he'd ever been given that notice and opportunity to be heard on the revocation of his license we felt like it was my recommendation we have to treat this as an active license even though all this time in the past we never had this brought to the board's retention potential attention before so we treated it as a license renewal. And and that was the reason is you know I don't have the luxury of doing what I think I want to do in a given situation my job is to advise the state make sure that we're not subject to a lawsuit is the board the Department of the state for violating somebody's constitutional rights under color state law you know state has suffered immunity from state actions but we can still get sued in federal court. And Absent proof that this guy got his due process before his professional license for was revoked and I can give you the case side if anybody would like to read it it's Chandler versus Martin look closer to the Mike you don't mind a I think a little trouble here please okay the case site that holds it you can't revoke a professional license without affording the licensee due process an opportunity to be heard to be heard is Chandler versus Martin it said to fourteen. Arkansas to nineteen four thirty three southwest third eight eighty four. but because of that we felt like we had to treat this as a renewal it and the and the my recommendation was it would renew the licensee through June thirtieth our intent was he'd have to come in at that time and go through all the steps to get a new license and under the rules we charge and the maximum reinstatement fee we were able to and we we looked at his qualifications he'd been license for over ten years and he was over fifty five years old so he was exempt from the C. E. requirements so under the circumstances we did what we felt was necessary for us to do with the cabbie I that we didn't do anything that would interfere not this was brought to the board's attention permit taking whatever action they thought was appropriate under the circumstances and I was involved in the initiation of that complaint and notice of hearing and that is going to be brought before the board on June the nineteen and we will support whatever action the board wants to take with respect to the licensee. but I didn't feel like it would be a good idea to deny the license and in this is an aberration you know I also want to committee didn't know that we do a real good job and licensing folks and this is very much a one off you know something like this doesn't hit my desk very often but when this came about that was the reason and and I explained this to Mister Davis so he has heard this side of it but you know that's my recommendation and and and I stand behind that I think that was appropriate thing for us to do we charge to the full reinstatement fee for a two month license you know that that comes out to a late fee of about twelve hundred dollars over the course of a year and then whatever the devore if the board decides to do to the licensee now that this all coming to light that'll be up to the that'll be you know whatever the boards to spit decides to do and we will we support our board you know and and their their appropriate wants to do that staff. but Mr Ragland I think did a good job of explaining kind of the license process and and and the staff on behalf of the board does issue the licenses once the licensee meets the potential the applicant meets all the requirements to obtain a license so you know we don't like having a delay in the system of preventing people from going to work. so you know it is in a per se Board issue that there doesn't we don't make our licensees wait around for the board to have their monthly meeting or their next meal by monthly meeting whenever the boards meet to get a license you know staff issue so. Okay what one do Mr black I wanna go back to you for anything that you want to a share because we deferred to dance for will support their let me go back to you for anything that you want to say and then I want to ask one question will open up to the board Board of members we have seven on the board the only thing I would ask is just be mindful that we got seven on the board and if you heard the question asked once please don't ask it again and will respect their rights time give every opportunity this black is or anything that you'd like to share that you have a chance to all go Mr okay so let me ask questions. Based on what you just said Dan it it really all kind of stems around in my opinion the duty to for the for the individual to be notified or to be aware that the license is no longer currently active do we have a policy in place now that because you're saying that Supreme Court case said he was he was never notified of in that case you're using the they were never notified that kind of place that you can't see records could join keeping back three years that he was never notified so conscientiously your decision was that because we can establish that he had ever been notified that his license was lapsed you felt compelled to have tuition license my characterized that accurately so for a yeah that's absolutely correct okay you have a procedure in place now when it gets to that point the licensee gets a notice there licenses been revoked and they have thirty days to request a hearing before the board if they feel like that has been done and air okay so are you saying the policy is in place now that wasn't in place previously that had it been in place we might not be sitting here today well I'm not gonna say that policy was in place previously but we didn't have any records going back to be able to prove that that happened okay all right. Okay going to open up the board and up. We got to representative Richmond first up. Thank you Mr. Feel free anybody up there can answer this question but at any time during this process when this started was anyone. Directed asked or suggested to take care of this make sure he gets this license would be a big favor to me or whatever it might be was there anybody that ever approached you in that manner. A representative no we did get request I received a phone call that a member of the General Assembly was looking to see if there's a way we could assist but at no point in time where we ever pressured to do to me to make this happen we always follow the law and rules. Same for the other two. Miss black and no Sir that never happened okay. A yeah and same for me follow Mr sure. You talk about the C. E. requirements is is there a limit you said something about is fifty five been doing had done it for ten years the C. requirements so were no longer required could you just is that did I hear you correctly yes yes yes and that's by Arkansas statute it's ten years and fifty five plus ten years as an all active auctioneer together and over the age of fifty five C. is not required all right thank you thank you Mr welcome and represent will. Thank you Mr chairman my question is for all three of you. First of all. The colonel Ragland testified that he had to come and take a test. No come back over to a take an oral test. I'm assuming you did if the fellow application. Could you not do a background check on him yes Sir you did yes Sir. Okay. Did you of. He took a written examine or exile yes that's correct. Did Mister McGee do that no Sir why did he not have to do it if he hadn't had a license to twenty fifteen was it he and I have to do renewal. Yep I'm a representative of a moment's black to answer the question because he's the one that concessions made against. It was it's to me it's two different circumstances Mr Ragland was. Getting a new license where Mister McGee was renewing a license and the same requirements aren't there for both. Well how do you differentiate between a renewal The New laws that had Mr Ragland been licensed before. Yes Sir why was he not given granted of renewal license. No. You can add to that yes Sir. It's two different circumstances. How is it different circumstances Mr Ragland testified he hadn't had one in ten years. And and Mr McGee had had one for eight years so what was that what made the difference here. Address that yes ma'am because it does go back to the the legal issue that I brought up earlier Mr Ragland testified that he let his lack license lapse and he wasn't claiming that he had an active license well if you don't renewal is of no less well if you do it according to the legal process in place and you give everybody their due process rights if we had any evidence that Mr McGee's license had been revoked we would put him through the basis for re applying and getting a break are you saying Mr Ragland license were revoked I'm sorry did I say Mr Ragland I was talking about the other now no Mr Ragland license was revoked vote he let his life life would you run to give me the clarification between revocation and revoke and renewal what you what your definition. Well that it's the definition the rules and statutes is if you just say it you have there is a renewal period at the as a matter of fact every auctioneer's license expires on June thirtieth of every year and there's a process that you go through to renew that license. So that is a renewal once a license is revoked our lapses voluntarily like. The situation represent Ragland described you would have to come in and re apply and you would be treated as a brand new licensee well when. I'm I'm still confused about the difference between renewal or revocation Mr did must have been tell you that he was not going to renew. Why he applied for a new life did he tell you he was not going to renew his license. You today and to my knowledge she didn't ask to renew his license because he knew his license at latimes I'm saying at the time that his license expired let me be very clear. At the time Mr Ragland license expired did he tell you that he was not going to renew those last. I have no idea what he may or may not of Community okay so for that time so he was in the same status as Mr McGee. I wouldn't say that no what what I would one of the because Mr lack Ragland like we expect most Arkansas citizens he recognized that he had to voluntarily let his license lapse well hadn't and you know how to you know that Mr well he is in design for a I'm just going based on Mr Ragland testimony but well what what about Mr McGee he was out there actively practice and as a auctioneer apparently telling us a violation of law he was never your your agency never took action against the yeah on the testimony is that nobody ever filed a complaint for us to act upon. Investigators. we don't have an appropriation for an investigator. This is just very is this just seems very strange to me that within a time span of a fifteen minutes this someone could get a temporary license and Mr Ragland had to go through all the hoops. Yes this is a good to get his license in here here we have a case where everyone was issued without board knowledge without the chairman of the board's knowledge or anyone's knowledge and yet he got a license in fifteen minutes something's not right and you can quote all day long. But that's one of the reasons we have the distrust we have in government today Mister McGee was treated differently than Roy Ragland chief of staff of the house of representatives. And he jumped through all the hoops that you require would you do not requirement Mister McGee is that correct this black. Is that the first statement. Yes Sir. It is or is not. Did you make a difference between issuing Mr McGee his license and Mr Ragland has lost its. Yes we did you did yes hello thank you thank you Mr chairman thank you for the letter to you're welcome let me ask questions I'm gonna move out over to my co chair for questions will come down the line insurer Despain you be up after co chair of the mist up missed black in any of the decision made did you consult with either Steve or Dan in and the decision that you made so that the decision was among the three of you not just you solely yes okay very good and then. We heard testimony that Mr Ragland who is licensed I think was expired for ten years came forward when he renewed his license and identified that Hey I know my license is is. Expired outdated. I will maybe get him back up here to ask him if he had received a notice at that time I'm not sure that be relevant to the discussion but I'm wondering that but I would ask you this he came forward and said Hey I know my license expired it's been ten years when Mr McGee. Asked for his license to be renewed did he volunteered that he knew that his license had not been. Has expired for the number of years that it was expired did did he communicate that to you in its request I don't remember the specific conversation that was had between me and Mr McGee he was aware though that his license was inactive but I don't know if he knew how long it had been. But he was also given the same information to start over the process of going back through. Okay so he acknowledged that he knew that his license was expired set aside the fact he got a notice to the unnoticed hit your testimony is that he told you our knowledge in the process that he knew his license was expired yes correct yes okay our culture of very represent better thank you Mr so labor licensing do we follow the same oversight with insurance real estate can somebody be out there selling real estate or insurance for ten years and have an expired license and you'll not know about it since you don't have an investigator. You will all boards and commissions have separate rules and laws but for the ones that do have the investigators they are afforded they are allowed to go out and investigate as for auctioneers miss black is that one person Board so unless it is brought to the board's attention we have no idea somebody's practicing without a license for this particular for this particular profession. For the but that somebody could theoretically be out there selling real estate or insurance without a license right technically yes yeah okay thank you Mr. Senator Dismang. Yeah do that no no you just were fiction they've put. Thank you Mr chairman I so I mean I think I probably have more questions than I want at this point. I mean city sign an affidavit who who brought the. Quit running the question that he wasn't notified that his license had been revoked. That's something that I looked into when we got the renewal request of Mister McGee did not. Now okay and so then the whole I mean I'm I'm not trying to I'm not an attorney and and I try to pretend not to you know I don't try to pretend to be one because like I gotta be licensed to do that. But. It might might if he didn't raise it if there was not an affidavit signed that you know he didn't realize it had been revoked or that you know he let it lapse or whatever then we we kind of gave him an out and I get the willingness and want to make people happy and it was request to you know to try to try to do something for a particular situation but if an individual knows that their license been last for ten years and I haven't been following the rules are set out no matter how stupid the rules may be or how much they may disagree with the rules or whatever it's only a thousand dollar fine so the end of the day I'm gonna bet most auctioneers are making more than a thousand dollars a pop at an auction it's an option of any substance to kind of roll the dice I guess if there's no enforcement which I'm hearing there's no investigator then we roll one die so you want to until someone says no to operate my facility at that a licensed medic that's where we got to. If I understand things. But I just wanna be clear there was no affidavit this wasn't request by Mister McGee this wasn't something that was you know brought to your attention that Hey you know there's a Supreme Court decision that you're you're you're you're you know I haven't been given due process I did know was revoked I've been operating for the last ten years I didn't know as opposed to paying five you know whatever it is that that was brought up by us not by Mr McGee. Well that was me doing my homework when he asked to renew his license which I think is more less just trying to make someone happy because there was a request to try to expedite and what I would just say in in all that I'm hearing right now I just read take a deep breath. And just a knowledge that maybe we didn't follow the rules the rules pretty explicit. M. and at because I think would be I think we'll all be better off if we acknowledge that we didn't fall the rules instead of trying to figure out some new honest way that it was okay that we didn't follow the rules. Well because I don't think the documentation is going to the there to substantiate. You know kind of the direction that we went which is the only thing that you can fall back on is that he didn't know. That is a licensee been revoked and he wasn't allowed to have due process at I think the moment on a any court would tell you the moment you decide not to pay your your you know you know when you signed the paperwork to be an option agenda annual fee that you got a. And the moment you decide not to make that payment. You the knowledge that you know that you're allowing a license to be revoked. Again I just I just hope we take a pause as we move the questions because I think it's not going to get a little more intense than I'm even trying to be but I this is all very very murky I think we didn't follow the rules I think it's clear I think we dollars we don't follow the rules and I think we allow the board to make a decision I move forward in that file in the best interest everyone. The address at center yes Sir. You know and and with all due respect we do follow the rules and and and that's you know again I guess that's the the problem with this it's not a happy situation I fully understand why the auctioneers or accept this upset this was allowed to happen but as a licensing entity we're not allowed to just decide not to issue a lot revoke a license without giving somebody due process and that's why I made the decision that I thought was best for the agency best for this the Department and best for the state is that since he had been afforded his due process rights the we would let him renew for two months that's all would be good for the board would still be free to take action on this plane complaint since finally this is been brought to our attention and we can we had a you know we were able to address that I wish what it came up you know at any time teria previously but it never did we never had that opportunity and with respect to the timeline that also makes it looks like we're bending the rules we were not but the timeline this didn't happen in the fifteen minute interval representative working that I wanted to address that for you you know this request came to us and we spent a full day media my research and and three of us meeting and trying to figure out what you do under the circumstances and you know I I recommendation would still be leading running for this two month period. Don't do anything to prejudice the board from addressing the underlying issue with the licensee. And then make them go through all the paces representative Ragland or anybody else would have to go through to get a brand new license and that's where we are now but as far as this renewal it's it's this chamber versus Martin case that that that. Image one quick question see started applying for new license at this point. Yes Sir okay and probably doesn't intend to I think because he has a license in hand. Said I mean there's no been no contact to the point that he just made here's what I would say to that. In in utilizing that in in that you know I don't want to this is not my goal. But if you're going to rely on that then every individual that has let their licenses lapse. Can simply say they're rescinded any very set the precedent that is taking affidavit it doesn't take a anything. That they were not given due process even though they didn't pay their fees in those added to their seeds and they'll make. The consumer to provisions a CD it is it isn't that you get I want to go down the road. But the president you're setting if you fall back on that will up and a lot of things in my opinion I mean you're allowing because now we're going to have precedence this is the position that Hey if your laps you come in today and we're going to you know if all you gotta do is say no actually you don't even have to say will make the argument for you that you were not given due process I think it's a dangerous situation you're putting yourself in I mean if DFA were to take the same position someone paying their taxes at I don't know what the outcome would be I just at there's got to be consistency that's why we have rules in the rule you know if you don't consistently follow the rules and thank you lead to self down a dangerous road a special permit to rely on a Supreme Court case that undermines. Licensing in general thank you. And then senator Asher you then we have this in place now and we will make sure that we filed this case and that licensee will get the notice that they've been revoked and get their opportunity to say that that we were somehow an error and went once that expires then they're revoked and they will be treated as having come in and get a brand new license so we are trying to you know in that sense I'm I'm glad this kind of all happened because we do get a chance to look at our procedures to make sure we're doing everything by the book and we will make sure we're doing everything by the book. Senator Payton. Thank you Mr and I have quite a list it's a racked up so if you want to interrupt me at any point and and let somebody else in the queue that'll be fine members I apologize but I do I do have quite a few questions here. we don't write in let me give you five okay of. So Mr Gunthorpe. A made the comment. The miss black is a one person board and you've made the comment Mr Parker several times St we we we we we. And many of your responses. So I'd like to know exactly what you see. The board structure chain of command authority being as to. Is it your. Department or is it the appointed members of the board or the miss black that holds the authority. Of of the licensing board. Thank you senator to address your questions for a chain of command it's it's miss black who then answers to me who I then answer to the secretary of we reference we because yes we are a department but as far as board activities who's allowed to work specifically on the auctioneers licensing board that would only be miss black she's the only one that's in the personal why do we have appointed members to the board. The governor appoints the members of the board correct I'm speaking of administrative duties not board member duties so do you think that the issuance of a licenses administrative duty instead of the the board's authority what we reviewed it as as of renewal which fell under the director's per view and the testimony has been that you viewed it as a renewal because of some Supreme Court case in legal advice from Mr Parker. Why would you not consult the Board. About the fact that there may be exposure to litigation over this why would it only be the three of you with your heads together and totally ignore the appointed members of the board's authority and in making these decisions I don't believe that we were deliberately trying to cut out the board well what we're trying to do is see what we could do as far as renewal just had to hurry just had to get get a really big hurry we were just looking into what we could do as far as the renewal okay Mr Parker you made the comment That the difference between. Mr Ragland Mr McGee had to do with the application. We have an application for Mister McGee yet because at the last I checked we still did not have any form of application from Mr McGee. By knowledge no we did not get in that so we have no application and yet you're afraid that he's going to make a legal argument to the Supreme Court. The one notified of as revocation or it's expired license or whatever. How did you even become aware that he was seeking. A license. If you don't have an application how do you know somebody seeking a license. I was brought in on that I guess he came to to Kelly you know I received a phone call that from from the from a member of the governor's office so you didn't receive a phone call from Mister McGee no Sir and you didn't Mister Parker didn't receive a phone call from Mister McGee or application or anything else so Mister Parker when did you first become aware that he was making application. Thank you was the day before the license was issued I mean. We you know like most legal matters within our department you know I get consulted when they feel like there's a legal issue that they need a lawyer to look into they being the board no our department. So. Acting totally outside the knowledge or the authority of the board. Mr Gunthorpe I miss black came to you and seven. What does. I'm I don't I don't have an application they have a call from the governor's office what was it that they said. What what what was your question. That we had a request from this gentleman to renew its license thank you didn't have a request from this gentleman to renew his license well the way it was presented to me yes we did and I think are you shocked to find out we don't. Well you mean because we don't have a formal written application or a phone call. Well I think we had something Mr black has Mister McGee ever called you about what it would take to renew his license yes Sir how long ago was that Approximately a day or two before this process started have you ever heard from him before about renewing its licence. Yes Sir how long before was that. about two years ago. So two years ago he realized his license was last he continued to operate without a license because he didn't want to follow the steps that you gave him two years ago to renew his license. Am I correct and all that. I don't know what his reasoning was behind it. But you did giving the steps two years ago that he needed to renew his license correct and he didn't follow those yes Sir. Okay I'm sorry yes Sir he did here yes Sir he did not favour okay thank you sorry Sir paid so Mister Parker. Your testimony is that you are involved in the decision to grant a license. To somebody who had not made application. At all. Other than to call somebody in the governor's staff for governor's office who then called. Mr Gunthorpe Sturch. Is that correct. I ask for specific proof that show that we had revoked that license that he was in revoke status okay so the Arkansas juniors licensing law requires the board to retain records for three years if somebody license expired more than three years ago why would you have an expectation that we would have proof of that communication. three years as the minimum requirement I think our procedures going forward will be to keep a record like that indefinitely. So that's contrary law to you just make the law up in their own volition that contrary to the law on the record retention policy that the state follows and we follow that has minimum requirements for how long you have to keep a record it doesn't say you will your interpretation of the law is a little different than mine but let me ask you this you made the statement that after the fifty five years old if they've been an auctioneer for ten years they don't want to do the C. E.. Are you aware that the law says that that has to be ten previous consecutive years. In other words Mr Ragland will have to do C. E.. For his renewal in one year. Because he has not been in the auction business for ten consecutive years. we can look at that set you together if your life but absolutely because it says ten consecutive years and fifty five years old there's at hand in there and Mister Davis make sure it was there but I don't know that the word consecutivas. So that's to bring court cases that you mentioned was that because of a revocation or a renewal. Sorry about that that was actually the suspension of an attorney's license okay so this state of Arkansas did not suspend Mr McGee's license or revoked Mr McGee's license he simply allowed it to lapse and on the date of model on the face of my license just like my driver's license there's an expiration date. So if you think that the law requires notification of exploration what is it about this date on the face of my license that does not qualify as notification. That is in my pocket from the day I get my license to the day I replace it with the renewed license. It looks to me like it's produced by the state of Arkansas and a very clearly. Notifies me of the expiration date. So how is it that somebody who. Allows a license to expire. Has not been notified. The Chandler case if you want to read that mixes the county illustrates is fairly that was not about expiration that was by suspension you said. Right but why I mean I think your question was what happened notices somebody in this situation entitled to and because this was a professional license and they had a property interest in that professional license it and there could have been a mistake on whether or not. They sent their money and and did everything that they were supposed to to have their license renew but they never had an opportunity to bring that to the licensee's attention that the court held that that violated the person's due process rights okay I will turn this over to my colleagues but I just wanna clarify. You compelled miss black the issue this license. Based on a phone call. To Mr Gunthorpe saying that Mister McGee would like to renew his license. We had no application. From Mister McGee no argument for Mister McGee that he had not been notified. No argument for Mr McGee. That. He somehow deserved to have a license without going through the due process. I mean you based your legal opinion. To Mrs black. On nothing other than a phone call that came through the governor's staff. I would say I made a legal recommendation based on my understanding of all the facts involved in based on my thirty five years of practice law in the state of Arkansas online knowledge of the law do you think at the ending it in a court case having not made an application. Yes I I stand by my recommendation I think I did what what was best for the Department of for the the board the Department and the State of Arkansas and and all at the please keep in mind that the board is the one that has the power to over it's licensees and has the power to take action on this so why did you advise the board. I did I did I was very much involved in drafting the complaint the notice of hearing to set up the June nineteen hearing were about to have that's all after the fact you did not advise the board prior to this its license being issued. And I've spoken with Nicks valor I and I do know that you had a conversation with them in the last day or two that compelled him not to be here because he had planned on being here. But anyway. I think you're a day late and a dollar short advising the board I'm let my colleagues ask questions. Couple questions and we're going to go and I got for the board and then I think I want to cut the line after these for their on the board got to senator right rice Boyd representive Wooten and then we'll draw the line after that of but one as two quick questions is there expiration date that's printed on the auctioneer's license when it is issued. Yes Sir. Then my second question would be because that is on the auctioneer's license. Why is that notification wise that not sufficient notification for you all to deny the application or to file the other processes that are placed if a license is expired given the fact it's on the license. And I think it's best explained by this the Supreme Court case somebody could have sent in their renewal fee because they knew that there license expired June thirtieth and it got mishandled by the licensing entity or got lost in the mail or for whatever reason they would have thought they renewed and the board is is not treating them as being renewed so they have a right to a hearing to say Hey I sent you this you can't suspend my license because I did everything I was supposed to do to be license that's the rationale behind why due process was required before this license could be suspended and I felt like due process was required before we can treat the Mr McGee's licenses revoked okay and in the complaint it identifies did he pay for the back years that his license was not. On a pro rated basis he paid twelve hundred dollars to renew his license which would later acknowledgment that the news license was expired because he was willing to pay that much well under the rules two hundred dollars is the maximum weight penalty we're authorized to charge so we charge the maximum late penalty which is an acknowledgement that he knew his license was expired I don't know that it was adding balanced manner that because he was only renewing for two months because of okay the time of year that at all auctioneer licenses expire June thirtieth so when he came in to renew he was only get nine two months I guess benefit from the rental okay then the last saying I'm a good Senator Rapert is this two years ago when he called and the conversation took place miss black that you testified to awhile ago and he acknowledged that his license was expired but he didn't do anything in the last two years acknowledging two years ago this license was expired that within itself says something I know my license is expired two years later I haven't done anything about it now all the sudden something's prompted the issuance of the conversation to have the conversation to get it done quickly. And that was he sent a letter at the time that he acknowledged that he knew his license was expired was he then officially notified that his license was expired or was it all just a verbal exchange it was all verbal. There was a letter that was sent to him two years ago after that conversation what why would a letter not have been sent based on all the testimony today that that's the official acknowledgement your license is expired so if ask for later you would have a point of reference to be able say. You acknowledged and we acknowledge in writing why would that have not been done. It was an oversight on our part okay thank you thanks for that okay we're gonna go to here's what I got I got Senator Rapert Rice Boyd represent wouldn't share Walsh's not asked any questions today so recognized him and members I'll take more questions after that okay senator Bryant. Up sorry I'm a ghost aggression walls lit up go ahead Sir will come to you thank you Mr Hart Does this mean that. In bad mood I'm moving past the auctioneers Board in all the other boards does this mean if anybody else's thanks for a license for the last two three for ten years. With this decision that we made to them they'll come forward so every board have to. Revise this. I think the answer to that is now I think this was an aberration what happened here and we made the decision based on the specific set of facts we're or not intended to set any precedent with this. Okay thank you. Senator Rapert. Thank you Mr. I don't I'm gonna try to just be real brief of my statement my question with the rule the rule is very clear to me it's like one of the best written rules is currently around for several decades there's a grace period. Hundred twenty days at that point the board sends a notice which will be my question sends notice if the failure to renew if there there's there's a failure to renew it is an allowed status get two more months in the last status and then your license is considered revoked. A plane once is revoked you have to go back through the application process. Regardless of of our interpretation of disagreement of of what the Supreme Court ruling says. What evidence do we keep that we sent the notice that your license is about to expire how often how long do we keep it. And at what point can anybody just say you never sent me that if they're not return receipt L. Fite expired a year ago could I not just say prove it you do not Senate team in effect my livelihood as my profession so renew me instead of revoked. If I can answer that question for today we're going to keep those indefinitely and have proof that all that was sent out. And you know back then third the records that were transferred to us from the auctioneers board when they were brought under the department of labor and licensing you know so we will we inherited sixteen different licensing entities in two thousand nineteen and so you know what records we have from back then and berries board to board. but in this case we search all the records that we have and we. Didn't have the proof that I wanted to see that this person had been revoked so we can make them go through that you know restart the process so is or or sand on here on record today that if anybody is in a last revoked status for auctioneers licensing board it's a just come on and get get your renewal because that will will I would not say that I think we're going to look at the the individual facts of that case and you know if somebody were to fall into this exact same situation I don't know that my recommendation would be different but in light of the hearing it'll generate a further discussion and and maybe it would be thank you Sir. Senator rush. For what your title. I'm the chief legal counsel for the department of labor and licensing that's for all all boards that have lasting concern correct yes Sir Senator Rice aye it's very troubling to me have you had any other calls from the governor's office the constructing your by the Gunthorpe two. That's a license to through I am not. Okay earlier testimony from Mister Davis. Stated I believe that is doing for memory and if I'm wrong still something was still stated about doing criminal background checks. And if you let license lapse. In people's lives changing things change in the reason you have to go back and do another criminal background check. What I see is you do in your opening the state up. To the possible. The lawsuit again I know about the. The center state and and all that but there's I can see that you've got a Cup and a whole water in this thing I think it is Senate president and and you've got people in here that. Mr black. I would hope to treat people fair I would say don't you miss black. Do you feel like in roll right when that have anything to do this other needs get recent applicant thank you give us a recent thing that is just pretty much argues and argues. Why would you not tell him that he could have that number. If you're going to let. Mister McGee and his own number. Would that not be fire. It that's a for the board to decide and we were going to present that for Mr Ragland behalf but he changed his mind since the board wasn't gonna hear excessive because he needed it before the correct but the board was going to hear his request. Mister Mister Davis first you Mr McGee. Didn't present to the board either eighty. No Sir now. I said bill a lot of things but this one. I know you're you're trying to. Cover yourself buddy it's thanks I just bottom line the distinct. And I don't blame the guy for coming in asking renew me he knew the was behind a new was late he didn't have a license anymore. There's nobody that buys a license and doesn't renew it. As a anything to stand out. And yet you all did this. It's just it's it's the defendant retailing armor so. You thank the that. The auctioneer board in labor and lasting. Is going to have credibility better than they did before this happened. Miss black you think this is but a blackout. I don't think it put a black eye on our credibility no Sir you don't know Sir. I'd like you look at it real close thank you won't have to make sure you're being fair with everybody. Before you're going to get rid of a black eye. And I'm very concerned about the other Lasance being done just because the phone call comes in. When it is clearly against. What the policy says. One last question Mister Parker is there been any. request for an AG opinion. I want anything to do with this or any other case like this. Nine not that that I know of but we have consulted R. H. U. Attorney we work closely with the AG's office. But what is your opinion on this for all the licensing state of Arkansas it was was my recommendation and the situation was was the best how can you not later same recommendation for the next one just like this is on the look at the individual facts and and and you know where you are said you would back up on this. Well I mean Senator I'm always perfectly blunt you know I work for this body for many many years as well now and this is not really necessarily I don't disagree with your position on this order Senator Pitsch position on this is not something that I felt like that I maybe wanted to do but from a legal standpoint and to represent my agency in the state of Arkansas make sure we're not subject to legal liability that was the recommendation that I make a living in a safe by any my license for my business comes up and I and paid him more expect to get the same correct thank you. Senator Boyd. Thank you Mister chair I have to yes no questions for miss black and then one of one or one for Mister Parker so miss black the home the report to who is your boss and the the overall structure of the state. Because the committee report to the board the report to one of these gentlemen who who is your boss my chairman would be and then the other right. The. that's okay my board chairman the secretary would be you I would answer to so those two okay so you have a dual box okay now secondly do you really not have records back to two thousand fifteen or whatever this license. Supposedly whatever happened. We have records we did not have any proof of Mr McGee's record at that time. Caci have board records but you don't have his records correct. Okay we have is licensee file but there was no later the revocation letter that were specifically referring to we do not have a copy of that okay so thank you I appreciate that so Mister Parker. My question to you is and again what let's clarify modify a farmer of an attorney I'm a pharmacist at my other job but there's still a lot of words ended and I know enough from legislation to passing legislation definitions matter. You keep using the term revoked. And so when I think back to my time on the board of pharmacy that was a very specific action that the board took to revoke a license the board could and sometimes the board chose to revoke a license because it put the onus back on the licensee to come back and request a new license but sometimes we would suspend the license and then I put the onus on the board to read you know say that licenses back in action you know are active status but also though we have an expired license you might have the word void why don't we keep coming back to Supreme Court case that specific you again is it more expensive because you keep using the term revoked as if the board did something as opposed to I have a licensee did something or failed to do something thank you. Yeah I guess my answer to that is and it goes back to the due process right to hold a professional license you know and tell that licenses revoked it still we we had I felt like we had to treat it as still in existence. He said there's a process. In place and there are the steps that to believe it was a senator Bryant went through you know there's a time period for renewing the license there's a time period for reinstate a lapse licensed and then there's a time period where the board is supposed to give that licensee notice that your license is revoked and you have a thirty you have thirty days to appeal our decision are you'll never be able to you know you'll have that would that's what triggers the BM us requiring you to come back in and start the process all over again but that's why I use the term revoked it's just going through the process that other folks have identified as well we've got to that part part in the process we had no proof that we did what was legally required. to. Treat that licenses revoked. And that's what that's what bothered me and that's why I made the recommendation I did. One question represent within and Senator paid you get to wrap it up The does the policy and maybe this is what you're just talking about the policy or the rules in place for the governance of the issuing of licenses under any term but in specific usage. Is is it in policy that a license is automatically revoked if the renewal fees are not paid by a certain set date. Yeah I think the answer to that is no to legally revoke a license under Arkansas law on this Chandler case you gotta give a professional license you've got to give the licensee notice and an opportunity to be heard that your licenses being revoked and if you don't request a hearing then it will be treated you can't just automatically revoke without telling him or this provision rules are the statutes that that are being referred to as far as the twelve you know the ten dot three dot one of those rules are those statute if it's got Dotson it it's the rules but the the renewal rules of the auctioneer licenses border under rule twelve. Right so. What I'd like you when we come back to wrap up comments one things I'm asking you start thing about is why would we not go back in there and change in rule then that failure to pay by date certain constitute automatic revocation of revoking of the licensure and that be printed and handed or sent to a person that way we could take care of that but that's been in your head for me unless you want to try to take shot now yeah I can address that right now we are going to because in in light of the the. Statute that the General Assembly hopeless pass this last session we've we've got a revamp our rules anyway we're gonna tighten this up but the very last notice that the licensee is going to get is going to comply with this case and and talent because this case says because you could have sent the money in the licensing entity could have misapplied it that you have to be given notice that your license has been revoked before we can revoke it we can't have an automatic revoked revocation provisions yeah we've got to send out that final notice and we will okay all right the representative would. Thank you Mr chairman. How many how many revocations have you issued. In the past year. Revocations for like nonpayment or having a hearing for revocation just clarity. You also put herself time yes question you I'm asking the question how many revocation if you issued in the past. Two years three years four years whatever. Since I've been at the board for the last two years nine no correct no no one. No shoes no revocation letters to anyone we sent out revoked weather condition letters yes Sir that's part of our rule that's what we do as far as having a hearing for revocation since I've been at the board we've not done that okay Mister Parker this question for you do you do you come in all over renewal you get a call from. Whoever made the call to the sleeve or whoever made the call to you do you do they call you about ever bring new will. No I'm not what made this one different. Well there was a legal issue all right well what what legal issue I mean what what what what might okay what made this different. What made this case different than any other renewal license renewal and you say you don't comment on those or you don't get a call but on this when you got a phone call generally when people have to call a lawyer the the No they're wrong or they're looking for a way to get around so. So what was the deal here. And you better take a deep breath because I've heard all those wishy. Jumping around but you lap and I know your attitude your attitude is I was here when you got here and I'll be here with your call I'm eighty one years old I'm a dozen more. But I'm telling you right now you didn't take a deep breath I did whatever Senator Dismang pointed out to you and whatever rice is it Senator rass the US built over here because I took a deep breath you blew this that legal case has nothing to do with this renewal you made a definite difference based on a phone call you got up in the governor's office. You made your decision on that. So long says here and tell me and expect all this bonding to believe what this tells me is when we authorized the combination of all the boards. This is kind of action is going to be taken by you without consideration of any board when we voted on that issue in the legislature we made a bad mistake. I wanna have you devised who's who's the senior person here or use the same your person or you are missing a person have you advise the secretary of labor about this situation he's aware yes he's well aware of it yes Sir do you advise him all over a case that you good for renewal of a license. Not every case but any of the that's what I ask do you advise him on every case of renewal now you didn't so so this is something wrong here right. Tell me what okay if you could add that to that question tell me what that one more time I will give you all a chance to fess up. What was the difference between Mr McGee. And Mr Ragland what was the difference. Represent Wooten when when I say applies the Secretary on this it wasn't during the process it was after when it became an issue with us and when you do all you all been call. Represent would you have a question please okay so. Well I still I still will know why the difference that's my question why the difference between Mr Ragland and Mister McGee. And I don't care whether was fifteen minutes later or two days later a week later a mistake was made tool what was the difference. Yeah and and represent Wooten I want to assure you that I have nothing but the utmost respect for you in your position and every member in here I mean one of the great honor of my career was working for the bare of legislative research and working with all the members so I'm not here to do anything you will never get anything other than an honest answer for me I I promise you that tell me the difference okay the the difference here was representative lag Ragland did what we really need all of our citizens to do hopefully we expect the Arkansas citizen to follow the law and mixes the radio administering all our licenses a lot easier when they do it representative Ragland let us license lapse it was a voluntary decision he made he he wasn't even planning on getting back into the business I guess until we had this conversation with a neighbor so then he knew that under his circumstances since the intellect on Terry Lee let his license lamp and no longer have one that he should come in and take the test and and and and then get his license he started the process over again and that's what we would expect from anybody in that situation to do I get called in that when there's a legal issue to help decide what is the best thing for the department to do it's not necessarily to try and figure out a way around the law because we don't do that we do our very best to administer the laws as they are written and make decisions that we think will make sure that the the the agency does the right thing And isn't subject to a lawsuit of this situation I everybody in this room knows is very squarely set of facts that I haven't seen since I've been with the department before so you know tough facts I guess there's a expression. Top facts make for hard decisions you know my personal decision might have been different in my legal recommendation but I have to recommend what I thought the department should do to stay out of any sort of legal obligation and that would end up in a good result because really this is a matter the board needs to take up with its licensee. And I wish that have been brought to the board a lot sooner we to have that opportunity not sooner none of us would be here today. protests to to allow the renewal and then let the board takes whatever action it feels is appropriate I think that's a good result. And I don't have the authority as an individual or just the attorney for the department to play god and and make all those decisions so that's why recommended this would be a S. way to go and we B. make sure that the guy got us to process and that's that's why I decided to do what I did. And I understand why people are upset about it I can answer you know personally agree with your position in a way that from a legal standpoint I thought this was the best thing for us to do I really did. Thank you Mr chairman thank you for a letter to thank you Mr Parker you're welcome Senator Payton wrap it up please in the chairs got comments at the end okay thank you Mr chairman thank you representative Wooten I I think I can answer your questions on the difference the difference was Mr Ragland made application. And Mister McGee made a phone call. That's the difference thank you miss black. Have you ever issued a license. Without an application before. Have you ever had a phone call from somebody. How are up asking you to look into how to issue a license to somebody who had not even made an application no Sir. Mr Gunthorpe. Have you ever had a call from the governor's staff asking you. To help somebody get a license not just auctioneers licensing board but. Over the years there have been numerous calls asking for assistance with somebody had called and constituency service that how we could help them. Okay and so you've made the call before to certain directors of boards to assist in constituency matters absolutely have you ever directed them to up to issue a license I've never directed anybody to issue a license that was unlawful have you ever just when you make those calls have you ever asked if they had an application on hand for the license it was being questioned no I I I don't ask that you don't care to have a license or an application you just it's not that I don't care I I may just not understandable process that's why go to the Director whoever can you give me an example of what that okay so I am on the phone with you what would you said what would your phone call may I get numerous calls from even members of the General Assembly that the last questions how could they help how can a certain individual I'm not your call to the director of a board what would you say also we got received a phone call that a gentleman that needs assistance with whatever particular license here's the set of circumstances what can be done is this is this allowable so basically in this situation that's what you do. More less yes Sir okay so did you have his name and phone number and address and it was a it was provided to me I don't his name was provided to me I don't remember if any other information was provided to you might not have anything other than the name I don't remember but maybe not now so when you call miss black she was able to recognize who you're talking about just by the name I believe so. It seems strange to me that we have enough information to issue a license to somebody. Without any sort of an application. Unless there was more there a conversation that but the. Mister Parker. Do you feel that you should advise. The board I mean I think you may testimony earlier that The board is the authority over miss black. I mean why would your legal advice. Not be to the board and what was the rush. That you felt like we were in jeopardy of legal action that would not wait I mean the board could have emergency meeting. What what is it has to be done if you felt there was. legal action being threatened by Mr McGee. What I mean what would be the rush why would we have to hurry up and do this in a twenty four forty eight hour period. I think the the scenario we were given was that was an upcoming option that the the license the the applicant someone to be renewed for So that that's what we tried to make a. Informed decision on what we should whether or not to grant the renewal okay thank you. All right couple questions for the chair the rhetoric of put on the ground to the comment you just made. You would have never become aware of this had a phone call not been made by a citizen operating a business that alerted in this case the colonel to testify awhile ago you would have never known this had that. All from the public not coming in is that. Let accurate. Yeah we wouldn't have known the status of this individual okay and. Yet in light of that I was just thinking as I was as a question two years ago we we knew you've been on the you've been two years in your position is black two years ago we knew that the gentleman in question was operating without a license. Get a phone call in and we get we get a license expedited we get it handled and I understand I hear what you're saying you did on the basis of your interpretation law not understanding you to three lawyers in the room there you go get through the process so I'll add that in there. I guess my question was did you advise at the time that the application was requested or the license not the application was requested that he was operating in a legal manner because his license was not current or are you a take position that based on that law the court ruling that his license was not in the ballot and that's that's why you didn't advise him he was operating illegal. And and I was not with the Department at that time okay but I think from what I understand is what Kelly did when that happened was advised of the this person everything they need to do to come in and get a license and that's what we would do differently today is effective we do calendar that and if that didn't happen like we instructed then we would ask double probably presented to the board to initiate an investigation and okay Ted take action on it and and Kelly mentioned that was an oversight that we didn't do that at that time okay and then the then the last question this and I want to give you a chance to clear the air because of all comments been made today and we'll go one by one miss black were you ever put in a position that you were told to do something that you did not agree with was in compliance with the law based upon your interpretation were you pressured where you start with your job loss or anything like that regarding the matter of this issuance of the license Sir Steve same thing no Sir Dan. Absolutely not we did what we thought was right under these bad circumstances okay so here's what I want to say is the takeaway o'neill to my co chairs if he has any others take way and also kinda put purpose to why we met today number one this is put some light on the situation hopefully will produce different results moving forward and that would be through the promulgation of the rules to address this issue number one number two if this courage happens again that lot of all testimony today it'll be handled differently moving forward second one would be that the board is going to take this up and review whether to let this license stand or to revoke the license of my correct on that and the date on that is going to be what June the nineteenth June nineteenth so the potential for this license based upon the interpretation of the decision of the board who may have the exact same conversation we're having today though they're gonna make a decision how to move forward on this one particular license is that correct that is okay and then the third thing I want to ask is are there any other situations. Involved in any other agencies where what we're experiencing here today with the auctioneer licensing board that the same occurrence would be duplicated in any other agency the lord have we done this with any other licensed in any other agency were phone calls made let's you know and I'm not about a phone call it says Hey I've got a I got a constituents out here doesn't know how to navigate the system okay let us help verses a phone call that Hey we need to get this thing done when you get it get it you know turned out because in this case there's a pressure of an auction that's going to happen and you know god doesn't have a license so is this we got this scenario anywhere else in any other agency and your overall the agency so you would know Dan right is that correct with regards to this why would know if it was brought to my attention and something like this I think would be to our my be brought to my attention because I don't know of any situation that we have that fits that description okay receiver I would know okay receive is there anything else floating around out there we're gonna see the same duplicated with some other situation some other agency no Sir okay all right all right members that means said the takeaway is which puts light on that's going to result from changes moving forward secondly the board is going to reviews we've been told annual watch and see what board results are as far as what they do and then the third thing is to our knowledge based on testimony today this is not occurred in any other agency where the same thing it's been duplicated with some other licensure of the way we'll do some follow up on that And so with no other business before the committee thank you all for being here today and I've got I'm sorry represent berry comments just real quick thank you Mr chairman so you can agency provide the committee with the decision or any actions taken by the board once they meet in June if you would please absolutely thank you to thank you Mr yes thank you for that very important. Point if you would send that to miss Steele if you would please and members I'll have her pushed out to the committee members okay all right no other action before the committee thank you for being here today with that we are adjourned.