ALC-Game & Fish/State Police

Well. Follows. Thank you of. Right. all. We are a we're privileged to be joined by. co chair senator hill and you having remarks are before we start. Yes Sir Mr chair Preciado one being here today we got a got a good crowd turnout legislators today look for a a great meeting you Mister chair if you would allow like kind of like a still switches around some and allow the Director booth in colonel Hager to go at the end of the first section. Of a violation of folks I mention to what I know we probably have several in here who are not committee members and we will be we'll be happy to hear your questions of I do want to get it as we go along we'll get committee members questions and of first and then and then moved to those if we you know we have a seven time permit so latest established up front that being said we will. I move to your questions there are some some other richer is is everybody that's in the lobby you are invited groups or they and their. Make sure there are no right of appeal okay I didn't either and and I mean my my hope this meeting is for dialogue and everybody's gonna be in here to hear your dialogue so I just have them say some that I thought was after appreciate their set in room may there alone well again. Mr at one point we thought it was going to get the in the in an education and everything I went in a of earlier and found out I was alone. So I came up here I I can understand I hope we can get them in here. Real quick. We were trying to keep you all out or anything where. Sorry about that glad glad to have you all here that appreciate. Appreciate this time y'all give us your time to be here of. First off we're going to ask Mr Epperson of two. Come down for. The statements and and questions. Thank you committee of old age I'm order refers no more than normal world laid down the highway. Please identify yourself and who will for the record Mr chairman committee thank you for setting this up and addressing this issue. That is kind of been festering in the past but I'm very or person president Donald Arkansas. In my capacity with this or organization over the years. We were countless stories across the state we are concealed handgun licenses system. What you want to add as a compromise system it is not a reflection on colonel Hey guard his administration. We sincerely appreciate the colonel and the dialogue that we have the. So one of the several one of several major concerns. We have surrounding the concealed handgun training in Arkansas is a very qualifications of instructors zero accountability. And of. The beyond the basic requirement there is little consistency and qualifications and expertise of the trainers. Lacquer uniform format E. and raises questions about quality and effectiveness of the training provided. So the instructors may have extensive experience and knowledge of our training while others may only after completing my and minimum requirements to become certified. This discrepancy in qualifications can have a six significant impact on the quality of training received. All the a concealed carry applicants moreover the lack of standard qualifications. Makes it difficult for individuals seeking training to determine the credibility and expertise of the sentential instructors. This can leave individuals vulnerable to receive inadequate or insufficient training while in turn might compromise their ability to responsibly and safely carry a concealed handgun. This subpart training leaves all. We believe lease opened last holders to potential scrutiny from prosecutors if they are involved in self defense situation and a prosecutor start bringing out history of the sub subpar instructors which. The question that brings up does this open the state of Arkansas up to potential lawsuits myself I think it could. To address this issue is crucial for the Arkansas state police to the staff establish stricter guidelines and requirements for these instructors implanting a standardized qualification in ensuring ongoing training. Four structures would help contain a high level proficiency and knowledge among those entrusted with providing the concealed handgun training of eliminate personal opinions on what the laws actually are restrictions I'm sorry to interrupt you I've had some. Your microphone closer okay thank you. So a. Additionally providing transparency regarding the qualifications certifications of these instructors would empower individuals to make informed decisions when selecting a training program this would enable them to choose instructors who possess the necessary expertise and experience. To to deliver a comprehensive and effective training. By addressing the discrepancy and qualifications and longer instructors Arkansas can take is to get significant step forward enhancing the overall quality and effectiveness. Of the of the program. This in turn will contribute to a more knowledgeable firearm carrier that actually knows a law which is this time very few of them do actually do. Many of these instructors are putting out information that is in conflict with Arkansas state law in an attempt to make another calendar which creates a bad reflection on our good instructors which there's several here. Who are doing the right thing. In closing you will have additional additional and more detailed testimony that will substantiate what I've just told each abuse. And I will be happy to take any questions that you all might have or later on pool but I would prefer that this be a discussion on the issue because this is an entirely new administration is open trying to fix the system. Thank you. Senator Rapert you're recognized. Thank you Mr. The best open up your and it was still a good time to do it and and one I'm going to test the. Shares for the meeting and disorder about here when no one I've talked to current higher to talk director Bruce and one thing that we don't do sometimes is good as we can I think as legislators is have bylaws and the people that we represent electors to represent us of the same people that that these agencies serve and sometimes it's just lack of dialogue that that can cause problems I guess as I've told them I get feedback from your questions on banks and some of this I thank you Mr president bring it up is maybe how certain instructors interpret what they thank the law is written by what they've seen but as I've asked there's really not. Oversight there's really there there may be some type training I'm I'm I am wanting to hear that as far is instructors go but and even with Things that go along in game and fish That I've dealt with in in years is aye the more you talk the better things can get. So I'm hoping that's what this is done that's what you've been invited for an open that's what you get out of this that we can ask questions and get answers if we don't have answers we need five. If we have agencies that dealt. See the the rules are at odds with the law. We we need to talk about that if we need laws to correct some rules are not being followed right we can do that but again my hope is on this whole thing is we're all here to do a better job and and by the dollar we have today And questions legislators well I ask because I don't think a lot of times in and for the concealed carry I'm. Law enforcement how would like to one thing if you be thinking about and also for game and fish what do you have in your agencies has connections to the public. Do you have anybody on any committees are any commissions that are just plain. Jondo. Anybody out there that can can talk to you about what the public saying hearing in failing so that may be a little bit ram Mr chairman I do will there to be a good respectful dialogue today I think we've got questions and and I think it's good time part I do want to welcome current I agree I think this is his initial time to this committee and appreciate him taking time coming and I think Director booths maybe it was here last year when he came in or whatever it was he came in and and we look forward to having them as we have dialogue before the committee thank you Mr. Thank you Sir have of. Mr cochair you wonder. Mr Everson within a minute or less if you would just kind of give us a brief summary on what your solution to the situation is I know you went over a few things while ago. Yes Sir thank you for the question we have a couple of instructors that are here. several through for some I've been involved in this since. Senator bill Walters now argued about it back in nineteen ninety five. they have Solutions sheriff Chris Brown is an instructor maybe form an informal task force to totally redo the system and and I hold some kind of building. It is excuse me but we are not interested is organization that what our interest is it bringing the issues before you all and let the the state police and the reasons good instructors fix the system. Thank you Sir thanks Sir. Thank you centre Payton. Recognized. Thank you Sir thank you Mr Mister represent so gun owners of Arkansas has a lot of members and maintain a Facebook page I don't know what other of public form you may have I understand because I'm a follower that page a lot of work of what you've seen in the way of public comments the probably helped you reach the conclusion. That the of the instructors are some good ones in there are some bad ones and there are some things being taught wrong but could you give the committee a few examples of the types. The areas where you're seeing what you feel is is poor instruction or misinformation being given because. Your job if we're gonna have a. Program. And require people to be permitted and receive training our job is to make sure that they are knowledgeable about the law and proficient with a firearm so if you could give the committee some examples of of the areas that you see as a problem. We're going back. Three. The return rock on. Without going back to previous administrations and all that false information that was brought up about the scary starting from. The last couple months because others will cover this the latest one we're getting is one instructors putting out if you do not get a concealed handgun license it's a federal offense and you will be arrested when you cross state lines now if you're not familiar. We have Mississippi Tennessee Missouri Kansas and Oklahoma that are permit less carry that is not required. That is a state issue not a federal issue now to get in to the NFA items your S. BR's and all last now that is a federal issue but it has nothing to do with the concealed handgun license. The individual that took the class recently. he was told S. and he got is licensee in concert is in the hands M. as one very knowledgeable individual. that talked to him and when he actually was shown the law he was infuriated. S. and the system as it stands now is destroying itself and I think Colonel Hagar will tell you we've had a pretty big impact on the drop revenue by people learning what the actual laws are that is contrary to what the a lot of these instructors are putting out. Okay so do you think it's lack of instruction or information going to the instructors of are we as the laws have changed over the last three four sessions of whom have we. make sure we got updates to those instructors serve the center paying I'm aware already of the current Arkansas state police the emails they're putting out. That were a huge improvement over previous administrations on information ever putting to the out to the instructors. Of some of the previous administration and you're very well aware of this the lawyer detail and structures of to teach concur completely contrary to state law. That but I do see a huge improvement already with the email that they sent out okay thank you thank you Mr. We have say no. No further questions restriction we thank you very much for being here thank you for bringing this to life thank you Mr chairman each one of you over and creation age all the time. Next up we will have of this Jan Morgan. To this house that first of all I would like to thank our colonel Hager DO colonel four and a legislators for agreeing to listen to us and for calling this meeting so that we would have a chance to hopefully discuss the issues and the maybe through a collaborative effort to create a better system for everybody involved you have in response to senator Payton question Gary everything covered some of the things so I just I'm not going to repeat him overboard I'm sorry Mr yes I doubt it for yourself for the record okay I'm Jan Morgan I am in in our a certified instructor privilege doctor a U. SEC a certified personal instructor in our a certified range safety officer Arkansas state police concealed handgun license instructor number thirteen nine oh three and to a women national elite advanced tactical team instructor I've been at C. H. C. L. instructor for the state of Arkansas for ten years and there are a number of issues with the system and I've called over the years of call state police repeatedly and shared with them information that students who take my class had shared with me that already taken a concealed handgun class somewhere else and then they took my class because they were terrified of their gun they did not get the training that they should have and they knew they were not prepared to be responsibly armed citizen so some of the things I was told that I forwarded to state police were you've got a retired state trooper in hot springs village to hold a fish fry any charges twenty five dollars if you go to the fish fry and you pay your twenty five dollar fee you get a certificate of training for a concealed handgun license there is a pastor who is a concealed handgun license instructor who has his church members sit in the pews he has a copy of the law says read it silently and then they go out behind the church after an hour of reading it silently and fire a few rounds at a tree stump. And so when I for this information to state police of course in their defense their response was well we hear these things too but the problem is when the information comes from another instructor it sounds like you're just afraid of competition and we don't know what to believe the students themselves need to make the phone calls well the reason students will make the phone calls is because they know that if they do and that instructors credentials or revoked then there concealed handgun licenses tossed out the window they have to take the class again so that has been an ongoing problem another one that I I will tell you we've trained over at our little facility in hot springs we've trained over forty thousand people from every state in America and from fourteen different countries so people fly in Arkansas for our training program our training program is not we don't call any of our classes a concealed handgun license class and the reason we stopped doing that is because we saw very early on people will call us and what training they say is a concealed handgun license guys because I'm already took that and I didn't get the training I needed so we we teach our defensive pistol class and we tell the people when they take it first of all when they sign up if they sign it before they even signed up you don't have to have a license to carry in Arkansas and that's something that every instructor should put out when someone is going to sign up for the classes should be clearly stated you do not have to have a license to carry in Arkansas because that misinformation was perpetuated for decades to the people of the state and it it discriminates against financially disadvantaged people who can't afford to pay for class to pay the state police for their fee and then also to pay for the licensing fee and buy a gun so one of the things I've been very concerned about and I came I brought this to the Legislative Council a few years ago regarding the application process in Arkansas and I will tell you I got on a computer last night and I checked in out of the forty something thousand people we've trained over the past ten years at least twelve thousand of those people came into our class one in our. Consol concealed handgun license but by the time I finished teaching a class they all went and signed up for an Arizona concealed instead or a Florida or Utah or Virginia wine because the state of Arkansas on the very last question on the last page of our application we require our citizens of our state to sign off a waiver on their hip a rights we we ask the citizens of our state to give state police the authority to not only check any medical records we have but to access any government records any what could possibly go wrong with that our application is like but for five pages of questions where is the state of Arizona the application is one page state of Florida it's one page when I brought this to the Legislative Council you all were shocked and said what is this and colonel Bryant at the time came in so we're we're just we're just doing what the law requires and so at that point even though the specific law that requires you to say that our citizens have to give up their rights he never stated which law that was and I haven't found to date so it was just kind of dropped but I would love to see the citizens of our state if they want a license to carry it to be able to get it from Arkansas instead of another state and we need to stop violating hippa rights of our citizens number two I think the most egregious thing that's happened over the past ten years. The best instructors in our state. The best instructors in our state who were truly in this for the right reasons or no longer teaching the C. H. C. O. classes you know why because a few years ago when the state forced all of us they forced all of us to take the enhanced carry certification and not only that we have to take that and pass it we were forced to teach it we were told if you are C. excel instructor and you refused to teach this new enhanced then we're going to revoke your credentials. One of the best instructors in the state worked for me his name is James Buckner and he is a national and world champion IDPH shooter but not only was he a great shot he was a great teacher being a good shot doesn't make you good teacher he was both and he refused to teach the enhanced. And even today even though I filed against the whole enhance process some of you may have seen the video online when I came up here and fought vehemently against the whole enhanced licensing curriculum. I didn't want to take the enhanced instructors. Certification either. But it was state senator my state senators it Jan I understand you against this enhance licensing curriculum because it is so convoluted and it's got a lot of flaws but if you don't take that and pass it then when you come to the legislature and you fight against the enhanced system it looks like you're an instructor who wasn't able to pass the credentials certification process it's better to buy a position of power against something that you're benefiting from financially than to come in as an instructor who looks like a sour grapes so I went ahead and got maintenance instructor certification and I'm proud to say as of today I have not talked a single enhanced class. But I can't tell people when they call me and ask me do you teach that I can't say no I have to say well can I discuss that with you first can I ask you why you're getting this so I would I would like for in the process of all the collaboration it goes on I would like for you all to also consider reinstating the credentials of all those C. H. CL instructors Bob Bailey was another one outstanding instructor all those instructors who is a matter of principle stood against the whole enhanced licensing concept. And understand those people who made a lot of money I lost a hundred eighty thousand dollars by refusing to teach the Arkansas refused but not teaching that we turned away people all the time. Because those inspectors charge a hundred fifty dollars extra for that I would love to see our legislature. And state police work together to reinstate the credentials of those people who stood firm. And at least reinstate their basic concealed handgun license credentials of the only other thing I would like to say is I also suggested when I call state police and ask them to. Come on a time limit I usually offense okay when I asked them to look into this and I understand that the situation was because I ask them to do an under cover audit I thought that's the best way to do this have state police who are entirely responsible for signing up for classes around the state with instructors and not saying who they were and just sit in on the class because we are given as instructors a specific curriculum this is it this is what we're supposed to be teaching and they tell us right at the top that this is a minimum the minimum training time for a concealed handgun license class in Arkansas is five hours and that does not include that does not include the range time the time it takes to fill out the application for the fingerprinting. Will there instructors blatantly violating that openly online you look at their of them posting about their classes C. H. your class one to three PM. It's because there's been no enforcement there's no consistency and so people at the very at the very least if we're going to continue to have a C. H. C. O. licensing program a citizen in this state should be able to sign up for a class anywhere in the state for my concealed handgun license certified instructor and expect the same curriculum in the State Police curriculum is pretty good there are some issues I have with it I won't get into that other than to just say they leave out the most critical aspect being responsibly armed citizen that and that is decision making a crisis we address the tactical part. But we don't address the decision making a critical decision making a crisis when to pull a gun would not pull a government issued when not to shoot so I would ask us to take a better look at that and I'm I love the solution that was suggested that maybe we a stab wish a committee of people made up of citizens of instructors state police representatives and and through a collaborative effort come up with the system that is better for everybody involved if we're not gonna do that and I would love to be part of the committee by the way. If we're not gonna do that I think that the best thing for the citizens would be to simply do like the state of Alabama which is don't offer a concealed handgun licensing curriculum a citizen can apply for a concealed handgun license all they have to do is pass a background check and you put an endorsement on their driver's license. No that's it that's totally different the required training but what good does it do to require training if you're not going to enforce that and by the way I call state police once again to double check and you know the requirements are to the the marksmanship requirements are to get a basic concealed handgun license. Shoot real bullets out of a real gun. It. So I think if we're going to two. Charge people for class. And police went to the trouble of writing a curriculum that we should teach that class and that we should have reasonable requirements you know I tell people that take my class so I don't feel anybody you're paying me to teach you if you have trouble after being in my classroom all day might my classes eight hours plus any much doctors can ballot validate that we advertise online our classes eight hours plus If you have trouble after being in my class all day when I get to live fire that is a reflection on me as an instructor not you and our job is to fix you so that when you leave that day you can handle your farm safely and effectively and you understand this is making a process. Any questions. Thank you yes I have one yes a moment ago is for you talked about this state you don't think you'd Service state forces of the instructors to teach the yes I when you say this state are you talking about directly state police state police required us because otherwise I would never have taken the enhanced and if my state senator had told me you need to do this if you're gonna keep fighting this you need to at least five imposition of power so yes state police told us we otherwise I would never have signed up for it you have to teach this and you cannot refuse to teach any citizen or your credentials will be right revoked as an instructor your basic concealed handgun license instructor credentials we revoke so rather than lose your credentials for teaching something that you have a a moral issue with an ethical issue with instructors just didn't go take the exam and course their credentials were revoked yes but a lot you might check with state police and find out how many it was it was quite a few and the ones I know they were the best instructors in the state we might see if we can get a hold of them okay I would love to see that happen of are there any other questions from committee. Thank you thank you. UP next that were all about order okay so the. Don't pay attention to your agenda sheets of what makes that where I have Mister Lee Ahern. And when you get here feel a lot better for yourself for the record with the great. Committee thank you so much for this opportunity my name is Leah herein I am the national president of to a women I am also a certified firearms instructor I have credentials with U. SEC a and two eight women I do not teach conceal carry I choose just to teach women basic self defense and firearms Arkansas born and raised but lived in Kansas a number of years and during that time I was also very involved with fighting for second amendment rights and I served as vice president of the Kansas state rifle association we returned to Arkansas seven years ago and I was pretty astounded at the misinformation and the Infor that is just the information I got on gun laws in on carrying it because of the date we moved and the date my concealed Kerry expired it was within thirty days it was a quick move and we had to retake ride retook my concealed carry of here and so what I want to do today is just share just a brief sampling of some things that I have personally been exposed to an experience for that has been shared to me in classes of first last week I was at again range I live in Rogers Arkansas. I was teaching I had five women with me and we were out to sort of in the lobby discussing whether they needed a concealed Kerry license or if they were OK just to go with permit less carry and I was asking them what states they would go to these are all older ladies and the person at the gun range kind of interested in he said it is very important that you have your conceal carry license because if you have your gun on you and you go to Texas or Oklahoma or other states it's a federal offense. And I looked at him and I said I don't believe you're correct with that try to have a conversation with the and he just said that's what I tell everyone and he walked away now is he misinformed or is he just simply not wanting to lose classes to that range I don't know what the dollar amount is for how much but I do know they do a sizeable amount of conceal carry classes so I found that concerning. Another day recently after a Class a lady came to me and said my husband just completed his concealed carry class and he was told in class that if you find yourself in danger if you feel an imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death and that's the criteria for if you feel like you can pull your hand gun and use it but he was told if they do not have a gun on them you have to use what he called force on force so if someone is coming at you with a knife you can only retaliate with a knife. This is crazy I don't think I have enough. I don't think I could carry enough weapons to fight everything so and I questioned her about it and she was she was adamant that that's what he was told and lastly because I had to get my own conceal carry class again I didn't know where to go I just kind of looked up I found someone super nice guy really enjoyable two hour set around a fire pit on his deck overlooking beaver lake we went out and then shot a couple of rounds into a target and we were asking questions because the laws vary quite a bit differently between Kansas and Arkansas so we were trying to determine what are our rights to protect ourselves in our home or around our home on our land and he could not answer those questions. Which I think are pretty basic questions if I've got someone coming through my door you know I don't want to just go by the old adage you know if you shoot him dragging me and that's just but that was kind of the idea and he said I will get back with you never heard another word from him so he was a very nice guy and I enjoyed my two hours around the fire pit looking at the lake it just wasn't beneficial as far as learning anything about Arkansas law so and those are just some examples of things that I've personally been exposed to and I just feel like we could do a better job. And letting people know because at some point someone is going to take information they were mis correctly given and then they could end up in trouble or a with a lawsuit against them or you know make a mistake that they should have done so I welcome questions. Thank you ma'am are there any questions from committee member. Thank you very much thank you appreciate it looks to secure jobs are going to have a question for you have thank you for being here today and just five just what you're saying you're talking about this was a CCL instructor correct there you that okay. Are you familiar with any process that has been set up to take those types of claims the. That are concerning about CCL instructors two three process you know of two questions that. I am not when I have questions either go with two Jan Morgan or to Gary a person. With that they can give you their opinion and they give yeah yeah yeah they're they're not a that is correct I'm not familiar with a process state authority to right now what that would I hope that something that will come out of that yes we don't have a process yes it is needed I hope we have a process that we can go to in thank something you know that may be. Right to be relatively minor to some but it it could cost somebody their life if absolutely is absolutely hit their doubtful with what they could do so again that's part of what I'm hoping discussion with members are here today and in the agencies here we've got these things that are being question and we don't need misinformation if information is being given your stated you are so that first time thank you I agree. Any other questions. Thank you. Thank you for your questions thank you appreciate it. Of next up we have a list Mr Audrey Zachary of you would please. Come forward and identify yourself records. See now I'm up for a double hip replacement so I'm hobbling if the moment. I guess I'm more reasons I cream now live in Merion Arkansas little background ma'am a US army veteran work best cation with milk with our military police. I'm retired captain West Memphis police department spent twenty one years there the last eight years Aranda training unit the training for the police department and coordinated of instructors development courses for the agency as well working with Alita. I'm also an instructor with the Arkansas state police concealed handgun training program for twenty five years by the numbers ninety eight three forty seven. Look at history on Arkansas with a concealed Kerry program in nineteen ninety five law was passed by our citizens you guys supporting the a concealed handgun program ninety six state please give responsibility to to deliver this program for the public. How was reached out and I was asked to come up to get part of the program at that time at that time I refused to because we did training it was members every ninety days from firearms training to legal training we were very aggressive trying to keep our officers up today on current laws and that this program at the time was a four year renewal program which now to five year renewal program the training curriculum and everything I was hesitant about because when we met with our students like every for five years. I'll use a written meeting with massive mass mais officers every ninety days keep them current current laws what the interpretation with laws word how to enforce it how to carry it out. So I didn't jump on I didn't jump on it right away lieutenant the Larry gentry was going to call recruit means is that we don't have enough instructors in East Arkansas we need your help over here that's okay explain this program would be better to me and I know we talked my concerns is that the end result was you can meet with you and your students as often as you want to or talking your students want to meet with you he's a wee does have a minimum requirements they have to re qualify at the end of of their their their license expires. That's okay. The S. and I took my test he sent me a packet of my test and became an instructor I'm sorry instructor trainer for the state so I've I could write curriculum and followed along with the best they could with what was given to me and over time court gentry Lieutenant gentry she came about these are people like a report to a cop the cop talked I hate we're trying to live with this program how how we can deliver it correctly. At the time the tenant gentry we have an informal board when I remember five or six police officers five or six civilians that we would call and talk to one another about the program to help trying to come up with a consensus to get the word out. At the lieutenant gentry of Larry gentry left the program I've for doing that let the program that the welcome quorum was great to talk to as another I also alter troopers trooper in all this but the as for the organization we could meet as a panel wasn't there any longer are a committee where we could talk. So throughout the years more laws changed we received information from the state police occasionally a new laws but most time it's our instructors responsibility keep up with new all that came out with the to the legislature. James Trammell came aboard with this with the state police he's pretty good given this information for the instructors of the information we need for new laws coming out of but it's still we're re received a lot of my information honestly I'm receiving it through the Arkansas guns of Arkansas program. Because they will also notice post general comments on the on the Facebook page there was a copy of the bill you can print PDF form and read it and then incorporate that into your lesson plan okay that's up to date law the need to be up for the officer for the instructors to deliver to their student. And twenty seventeen of the legislation committee your creek we created program for the carrying a concealed handgun on a college campus was great to protect the students on college campus also to protect the state of the staff that work there are family member that would be a good that the Arkansas college campuses that's where the enhanced program was originally I believe was focused toward in a began you begin expanding it will in the public hearing into government buildings other places they kept expanding. This program to my opinion on the enhanced program could be incorporated into the basic course instead haven't segregated. And then the second amendment program came about we in Arkansas was a recognized the this economic carriers as well done license we're not required. When I teach my class I tell my students real quick I'm a top race I will talk six in class Most also tell you I'm not going talk like a snake but one day it sounds like of course he's the subject here I will tell you what the basic concealed carry license our hands the enhanced license laws are and what your second amendment rights are we don't need these license. And the number one problem I have with almond I think problems no problem the issue I have with my and my students giving idea number of students a teacher to when I first started programming that in the nineties maybe to honor students a year it's not a problem ma'am and I I have a real job I'm retired police officer but I have a consulting firm I've consult with federal motor carrier regulations I keep chucking trucking companies and check with federal regulations so I like law. But I have over six hundred students a year coming to me just wanting to keep get the concealed carry license or get some training. I don't know six hundred students recently us over last for five years majority eighty percent of my students are black. You know what they're afraid of the police they want a license in their hands so they can communicate to a police officer they believe that they also understand that gun license lot better than they do the second amendment rights that we all hold here in the United States and Arkansas. All right then I'll that. My statement or my students at eight percent blacked out of those all my students again thank you Senate president number the women. Again women with these training. Yes the today's society more women are training the other get non public. They want understanding one protector self. And then students to come in the what they're learning is that the fence in law with the sales but what laws are in deadly force non deadly force that's keep thing we're instructing here were also instructed them of restricted areas where you can carry a weapon where you cannot there's so many issues there if you got segment right you got more right to carry a gun places and you do it at if you have a gun license and just think we put our students through a training program they go through a background check the state police to the F. B. I. cho got fingerprint checks going through it as well. What you get you pay for your gun licenses instructor training program then if you choose to get your gun license after you go the course I do teach you can act the second amendment right to them if they choose to they're paying the state police for a with good if I got to get piece of the pie but they get they paying that fee as well to get a gun license that you've got less rights do then the constitutional issue we have more restrictions on our students to go through all this training to get their license where you're better off not having a license but if you're free to the police. Then I got to have a license and and carry the penalty that you have with it. What I'm learning to get into the physical license is needed from many people that are afraid of the police and what what's freight is please also don't understand many municipalities in a county also they come to me Hey Zack what's his what's his about this concealed carry license what is about the constitutional carry where you get this that what's this about these a court of appeal cases that I've heard you talk about it prosecutors come to me asking about this I said look here's a copy of it right here it's not something I made up. But these are things that you as an officer need to be aware of because you're stopping someone on the street carrying a weapon. Do they have a right being that location with the wet what weapon do they have a right to be with a license without a license the answer out as an officer I understand the academies limited to how much time they have to spend with the officers on different subject matters in a come back to the police agency itself to teach the officers. What their specialties on the. Little hick up here guys if you don't if you're not familiar with if you got a concealed handgun license your holder maybe the enhanced licenses will. You know you carry a gun into a city park now we recently passed that law we can carry a gun into city park if you have a concealed Kerry license if there's an athletic event going on at the time I mean we've gone to all this training background check to get this license if you have a concealed Kerry license and if the athletic event going on in the city park you're not allowed to be there with your weapon. However you had you carry your gun on your second amendment rights with no license required there's no law that prevents you being at that city park with the weapon during sporting events. So that we can get the suit laws might it might it get these two things blended together it's a concealed Kerry license program equal to their second amendment rights that we citizens have. As a concealed handgun license holder you're not allowed to carry a weapon to a police station if you need some assistance leave that got locked up in the cards what I tell my students under second moment rights you can carry a gun into a police station. If you read into the statute the gun must be unloaded. We can't teach our students that I teach a massively under the understand their second amendment rights but you go through all the trouble getting concealed carry license and then you lose your privileges as a second amendment holder. That's that's what I'm here everyone of us about the citizen that we have hi instructor for the class. And then they pay state please get the license then they're penalized to get a lot getting the license you have much more rights without the license these days. And so my conclusion only so at supporting that one before me and we we do not have a lot to talk about what we've got talk about unless you tell you I recommend a committee to get together. Both of instructors in purpose state police officials. W. guys come together so okay this evaluate what we have this blend this stuff together make a program is suitable for the. For everyone so you carry on a constitutional right to choose but if you want that gun license because you travel actor in this some states are you You're that person that's afraid of police and the police understand that gun license a better then they understand the Constitutional rights. That's what I want that's why I want to come out of the session here. I'm open for any questions I'm an open book yes Sir we do have a couple questions for you Senate saying Europe first. Thank you Mr president you testimony to you've been instructor for twenty five years yes there of with this with a concealed carry program before that military and law enforcement yes so regarding the concealed Kerry Arkansas law can you tell me you know what training were you given to be a instructor and by who and how many times have you been updated how often and by who. over those twenty five years yes Sir good cool very good question good point we're gonna come across here. Back in ninety eight to become a concealed Kerry license at that time they were we say we say police were recruiting I said more law enforcement because we had credentials looking for other professional instructor so I could teach officer to become instructors out of the paper helpers do the presentation with that the state police for recruiting Professional instructors that's instructors who understood the law they could teach the officer what laws were and they would also recruiting farms instructor so we had to have credentials in both categories to meet that minimum requirement as law enforcement if you as a civilian and you have to have an NRA instructor certificate. The show that you went to a farm program the end result was we all had to take a test of knowledge that they gave us see we were familiar with their packet they sent out to us that cover the laws that they want to present it to us so that's how that's how each instructor came on board get on the program is for you to answer your questions for any continuing education. With none. We always given a packet on the enhanced program saying the answer programs going on if you will be part of it jump on board study it take the test. Later on it came out to it's mandatory all instructor will be enhanced instructors will come take the test or we could not placed under a taking the test but other instructors was told take the test or lose your credentials but other than that other than additional training additional. I'm glad I got a cop to cop relationship Jane travel the my go to guy since he's been in the office I just met him to the first time this morning being here that I the gentry's I met them as being officers as well loss of instructors may not know who these people are or who they work at the gentry's or no longer here. Okay well I appreciate that I'm a little concerned that there's not any continuing education so to speak our do you have a. Apartment in the state Arkansas state police that you could or a person that you can referred questions to answer about the law also when you when you have questions that come up you can get the answer I can I can get the answer any instructor could James families present here in the audience he's always been available I can call in there you could call their speak to Phyllis during the ladies in the in the staff if they re referred to on the phone if they can give you a reasonable answer they do you don't feel great or you want to question a little bit more I was raised James available are sometimes a key deal I'll talk James off the bat I got something I got a curveball throw agent I've got a issue about this. Mr I could continue. Yes Sir one of the accounts which in years from your training to something you're talking about. Limits on a person second amendment rights within the rules of the Arkansas concealed carry permit yes Sir. In twenty seventeen we passed ACT four eighty six. And there's a paragraph that says the Department of Arkansas State Police shall not promulgate any rule and shall amend any existing rule that would result bottom line in a licensee having his or her license to carry a concealed handgun suspended or revoked solely because he or she possessed a handgun and the possession was and was not in violation of any criminal offense or 5-73-306. That is. A complicated way of saying. The if you are in possession lawfully of a firearm. Under the second amendment. There's no rule within the Arkansas hand Arkansas concealed carry license law. That can take away your second member right. It actually says. Well that's gonna get to laundry but anyway the bottom line is this assembly has made an effort over the years to make sure that the concealed carry permit. Did not restrict rights guaranteed under the second amendment for exactly what some of this testimony has been that discourages people from getting the training and getting lost yes Sir yes Sir and and at I read that a must I read that law that statute in the my class every time it's time I do a class but also re what's still on Law still in the book about are prohibited places in in in five seventy three three oh six section it's still less there were read where were you where we're restricted carrying a gun and 5-73-306 yes and I think yes Sir five seventy three five seventy three three oh six specifically states if you have a concealed handgun license your prohibited in these locations even though we just read that statute that we just passed a few years ago these laws are still on the book and it's in our outline that we were instructed to teach right now he's as instructors and at and someone it's kind of hard Michelle this Graham with a gather some time come to come up some some solid to all our absolutely thank you thank you Mr. Sir I have a question for you yes Sir for move on a couple of others. Your term as of you said you were you did training for the West Memphis last my last eight years before retiring yes Sir okay of when you were when you were responsible for training your officers there would you wait for state police rules to come out before you like after of the say after regular sessions laws been passed laws of change that kind of thing so what what would you as a. As a problem with your trainer yes what would you wait for to say okay we've got to instruct our officers to you know that this is different that's different what what what what did you go through that process for us real quick. How did I select what what did you did you wait to hear from state police based not not not now we're talking over time I law enforcement retirement concealed carry out when you were training as an officer as an officer yes or a local police department yes Sir. What did you wait for I never wait for state police the way I wait for you guys to publish it. And I got up I got on a out of your of the website and reviewed cases that were coming about what was passed that way I can say okay your traffic division officers new traffic laws are being changed right here this what you need now you're almost not officer this is laws related homicide answer say so in a situation like what Senator Payton just brought up. You could have. At that point said okay this act of. Seven forty six or whatever has been passed it says. You under no circumstances with other gonna be rules we should not arrest you could have taken that as a as a trainer I'm not trying to harp on you I'm with the others you could take that a trainer so well Hey I've got a fresh from the legislatures in this law don't arrest anybody our site anybody of those got a concealed carry permit and it's got of is carrying Alice athletic event and city parks. I agree as I mean could that have happened. So We. Would you say that we have a lot of because I mean I don't know. Probably the vast majority of us legislators in here are not overly familiar with our. Local PD what we what you know what they wait on to hear of. Would you think that we could benefit from whether it was state police or somebody sent out here are the new rules yes Sir yes Sir absolutely instead of air at being left up to interpretation interpretation only it's been left up to interpretation. For all local. Law enforcement departments yes Sir is that correct that it is best left to the agency to look for in and to interpret it yes okay all right I thank you for up next we have a question from Richard Bates thank you. Thank you Mr chairman I guess my question is going to be more centered on you made a comment that the majority of your students the reason for taking the course in obtaining the concealed Kerry is a fear of a law enforcement. so I was wondering if you could explain that a little further and make certain that I'm understanding what you meant to communicate kind of kind of what I gained out of that art was that maybe they're taking the concealed carry one they have a firearm because they wanted to be able to protect themselves and those their loved ones and and their property absolutely had to they they went through the process of concealed carry so there's less discussion maybe with law enforcement as to why they have the hand gun on their on their property or in their purse is that what you meant to say yes or less and instead of a fear of law enforcement well I'm working with the black I will work a lot with the black community and they are more fearful than the white committee of law enforcement of the fearful of talking to law enforcement officers interaction between the officers yes Sir okay but I mean I'm hoping that I understood what you're saying is more it was to start that dialogue because then if you're stopped they have on the on the system they know you are are permit holder they have that information they know that when they approached the vehicle well they they don't know that when you produce the critical they also only knows it by pulling the driver's license pulling up that well well I mean that's C. isn't going to get that information when they stop you yes so it it kind of maybe put set officer to the scene makes a little better interaction not so much fear of our law enforcement authority I that's what I was hoping that that you meant by that state yes or from a firm offer an officer I police station the officer if we we can be in but communication get the communication dialogue between the citizen and the officer and the information that the officers sharing some time is the and it can be challenging depends on the situation of the contacted my a late night stop in a neighborhood that's known to have crime and then you got out of you're a law abiding citizen you got a concealed Kerry license or you've been trying to get a gun with you with or without the lights and you just have to be pulling down at neighborhood. And you get stopped by a police officer that might be helped up a little because these organised shooting recently and the author is cut again is an officer communication he stepped up talking strongly to the citizen when maybe should be toned down a little bit but they're intimidated because got a bad John and they say I got a concealed Kerry license I'm okay and they also really okay because they got the license good communication tool. Yeah okay I just need maybe you expect that they will be trying that they want to train protect yourself the family absolutely all right thank you the second part is. Physically holding a license. thank you senator hill your next. Thank you appreciate very much you being here appreciate the history that everyone's giving us from the past that we're looking at what I want to know about is not necessary the past I want to see what we'll do about the future this for let's forget that and I think this legislature is has shown that we're trying to change this to to make to appease everyone that goes back to what the center Payton said want to go in the another call down here state something else with those are things we want to fix for the future I'm not worried no no offense on the nineteen ninety passed up but I'm not we're about nineteen ninety five I'm worried about twenty twenty three and beyond so I in thirty seconds what would you do to correct. Come on the panel that we discussed earlier couple instructor senior instructors maybe pull the junior instructor or will we go out and that Visit the instructors teaching classes yeah I have an under under under cop officer visiting classes occasionally but have a panel to come together in this blend these laws together and come up with a program all these instructors you got a new lesson plan this is how we wanted done. Has anyone contacted colonel higher since he's been in office less than six months about some ideas or suggestions not that I'm aware of Sir would that be a good place to start absolutely let's look at the future let this give this man a chance and we keep Hammer ministrations on everything I think when you look ahead and this gives me a chance because he's only been in office six months. I refer back to history because I don't like you racing history we like I know he's not only race and I want to go forward and learn from it or. This learn from is not forget it let's continue forward with that I would really urge you all to get with you with colonel hearing his staff and let's see what we can do moving forward because I've met with him privately need he's pretty easy talk to and so I would like to keep everyone everyone keep in mind that he is no doubt never Director move comes up here he's been here a year and a half so you don't do what you want to the hill but the current hires new okay. All right representative rob. Your question. Mr Zakri yes thank thank you for being here today Sir of I have a question but actually it's two questions in one Sir let's just say that under constitutional carry. Let's just say that a person owns automobile owners owners trio just from say here to fables of would you say that they do need to keep that that if they have a pistol to protect themselves do they need to keep that pistol in the same envelope. I can only call apart here about thirty minutes ago they said. That actually you don't need to have a gun loaded but can you load that go and and and and the car I mean can you you know I'm a loaded gun in the call are on its real you're asking can you have an unloaded gun in the car on the is it is it is a law in your opinion stating that we need to have a loaded governor on loaded go under our constitutional carry. In a car it allows you to yes Sir election allows you to carry it in your home extension from your home your curtilage on into your property extension into your car bicycle horse would be alright yes Sir yes you can if a person is always true can they actually take the pistol and leave it in their seder that is against the law to put it under this no Sir is no not Arkansas no Sir okay I think that pretty well covered what under age okay thank you so I guess. All right there any other questions from committee. Say no thank you very much for being here thank you Sir all right of. A master list is. Share for Chris Brown. from. Cleburne County which happens to be. Dot country. Please identify yourself for the record yes share. Hi good morning my name is Chris Brown on the sheriff in Cleburne County and as a the co chair Senate is god's country up there so. thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning or this afternoon and just speak with you for just a few moments I think all the speakers in from the kind of touched on a lot of what I want to say some to trying to consolidate mine just a bit and that way we can get out here and move on with whatever else you all need to be doing today how will clarify on the on the act that that you specifically mentioned the statute that Is exempted in that is the prohibited places statute and so anything that's listed as a prohibited place when in fact not be covered by that particular act so just want to clear that up I don't know if there was confusion over that or not. so background on me. that'll make my comments here I've been in law enforcement for fifteen years little over fifteen years I'm currently serving my third term as the sheriff in Cleburne County I've been a firearms instructor for almost ten years and have been a concealed carry structure for the instructor for the state of Arkansas for almost nine years now also teach at the police academy and then I'm a nationally endorsed instructor travel around the country and teach handgun as well so I spent a fair amount of time on a shooting range will be on shooting range probably a hundred and twenty or a hundred and forty days of this year teaching and when working with students and as Jan said I'm one of the instructors that for the last several years has not taught a true concealed Kerry class I teach handgun classes where we focus on properly and safely handling firearms and and then we go into at the end of that and an option for concealed carry where we cover the laws and different things and what we we've seen over the last several years especially after after the implementation of ACT seven forty six that they're not as many people that want that want that True concealed Kerry class simply because they no longer need it and so so things have kind of shifted that way which I think in some ways is actually a positive thing so. I'm gonna talk a little bit about kind of where I see the future going when it comes to this and I start off by it by discussing the the curriculum just little bit between the basic and the enhanced systems and so I have I'm a called a unique perspective but it's only unique in the fact that not everybody is in law enforcement and not every concealed carry instructors law enforcement officer although the vast majority of us I would say our and so so anybody that's in law enforcement is also an instructor for this program has the perspective of seeing this not only from the instructor side but the enforcement side as well and after the implementation of the enhanced program there was uh a lot of confusion and in some different things from the enforcement side over specifically prohibited places so one example of that would be the basic permit prohibit you from carrying a gun into a church. Unless the church but it doesn't prohibit the church from allowing their members to to choose who who carries inside their church but then in the same in the next paragraph in that statute it says but if you have an endorsement of the the enhanced endorsement then you can carry in a church but that doesn't prohibit the church from determining that they don't want anybody to carry in the church and there's about five different subsections of the prohibited place a statute they're worded like that and if you kind of read through me go okay well I can. But I can't but I can. But I can't but I can't and and so there there's there's some things that have gotten convoluted and I and I think some of that has simply because happened because over the past seven or ten years or so the state has done a wonderful job of putting new laws in place to to move us much further back toward a true second amendment Kerry state and in doing so some of the some of this program has gotten piece together a little bit I don't believe for one minute a state police is fall and and I think the State Police is done the best they can and and I certainly appreciate the colonel and all his staff being here today as part of this conversation I've no doubt that they will do wonderful job in helping implement this program as well. So when it comes to the curriculum you have a basic curriculum in an enhanced curriculum and and I can tell you from years of teaching the basic curriculum the the topics covered I didn't put all them down I just put a few but the the basic curriculum includes topics such as avoiding victimization encounters with law enforcement and inspection of an individual's handgun. A an explanation or demonstration of the different types of hand guns ammunition. Cleaning and storage of a handgun and carrying a concealed. And any class that I taught. The. We would cover those things but but storage including a firearm while important isn't usually something that somebody wants to learn about or it's not as high on their list to learn about in a class like that if you're if you're self of taking one of those classes the vast majority of questions are centered around when my authorized to use deadly force and one of my not authorized to use deadly force or any kind of force one of my required or in my required to leave a situation or can I move forward and and and confront the situation aggressively if I need to or something to that effect and and that is not a topic that the state has required us to teach for the basic per program if you go to the enhanced curriculum we are required to teach as part of that self defense and use of force and deadly force we're are required to report that to teach weapon retention which means just hanging on to the gonna fight with different methods and and techniques for that general and civil liability when you could eat be held liable for something during an encounter where you choose to pull again where you choose to intervene and not walk away. we are required to teach emergent situations in public in response to law enforcement with your enhanced permit and the the dangers of a firearm in proximity to hazardous materials all things that that I think if if each one of us were to sit through class those are probably the questions that we would think about or topics that we would want covered in a class and and so from from that perspective I think the the structure of the enhanced program is is a much better much better program. Like I said just from the topic standpoint that those are the things that people want to learn and want to or with that will help prepare them for a deadly force encounter a violent encounter and so again if you look at the the two classes you have two different class links you have two different curriculums you have somebody mentioned the the live fire qualification earlier for the basic program is that you fire real bullets from a real gun and then the enhanced program as an actual fifty round a course of fire that the state has a defined it is time to end it is scored a very similar it's an easier course of fire but it is similar to the course of fire that is seen in basic police academies and is is much better structured and and then and then probably the hardest one to deal with is the two different lists of prohibited places that overlap each other depending on where you are who you are what business you're in what that business has decided what they have chosen to to post on their doors or or any any combination of those things and then and then I think probably one of the the biggest things that really needs to be addressed during the implementation of this is the continuing education for instructors there is there is no continuing education for instructors right now so if you become an instructor. Twenty five years ago there's no requirement for you to take a firearms refresher there's no requirement for you to take a law refresher there's no requirement for you to stay up to date on anything I very rarely when I was teaching a lot of these classes very rarely taught with other instructors that I had not well vetted and I got asked one time to teach or help a German teacher class and it was the only time I help and teach a class because after I pulled him aside five or six times and told him that he was teaching things incorrectly I. No longer offered my help to him and and I think that something that could be easily fixed but by having some kind of continuing education law refresher met maybe even a private audit or something like that to to help keep instructors current if we have people out here that the state is endorsing to teach this program then then we as other instructors in that program and and you all as the state should should definitely want them to stay up to date and teaching the the best things that they could be so for the future for the future for the asked a couple of times I would I would love to see a new program written just don't don't worry about the law that we have in place now right the new program take the good pieces from the basic program from the enhanced program figure out what needs to stay put into one package. Ask that packaging repeal the old one I think it this is a big task this isn't gonna be something that's that's easily done over the course of a month I I think this is this is a big ask and I think there needs to be input from a lot of different people to do this correctly but I think it can be done I think I think that probably needs to have some kind of task force in place or some kind of committee in place to talk about this with invested partners from a lot of different folks from the state police from the legislature from local instructors from local law enforcement maybe even and and to see this done to where where there's a good balance between this permit for reciprocity and and the second amendment rights that we all currently enjoy in our state that's all I've got to be happy to answer any any questions I might have. Okay thank you Sir we do have a question sort of centered Johnson you're recognized for. Thank you chairman of the so if there's no. There's no word additional instruction for the instructors what's the basis of their fee this adds our. You got me. it the the cost of the cost of the class has is is just like the the basic qualification up to each individual instructor and so there are there are places where you could have somebody charging forty dollars or I think I heard twenty five sitting around a fire pit all the way up to well over a hundred dollars for instruction a lot of that it just varies and it's it's not controlled by anything. Thank you yes Sir. Thank you senator rice you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr option around Brigitte you've been hearing the testimony does is I thank we're bleeding out of this we've convoluted some stuff legislature has trying to do a better job for segment rights and I don't need to be lost that our law enforcement get up every morning. And then go out in don't know what her face. May the dangers out there but in what lies citizens we live in a violent society we live in a very sure society even in rural Arkansas we don't know what we're going to meet down a county road we don't know what our families are going to meet stand in their own home so this is the ballot stand second amendment rights no. What is a state or who is which state has the best answer for this and they got some model that they've done away with everything else and. Going to something if you got a recommendation. I don't have a specific recommendation No Sir My suggestion would be just like so many other things there there's no reason to reinvent the wheel there's a lot of states I've. I believe the numbers thirty two states that have constitutional carry currently and and so I think I think a valuable part of this going for would be to reach out to some of those states and see what kind of programs that they have already implemented to deal with this they're a. There certainly are are good ways to do this and I think there could be poor ways to do this and and I would like to see us do it well I think Arkansas has as been at the forefront of many things and I've been I've been very proud of what our legislature has done over the last several years with in regards to the second amendment and the I'd like to see us continue that but I believe I've heard you say in other words to the the idea of getting some type of panel or board or commission or whatever together we don't want to bureaucracy of it we just want the viewpoints and I'm not I'm saying different sure the board I think just a few points of we're all trying to get to maybe something that that's that's good policy but we we don't know what it is and if we don't listen to each other you don't know what the problems are not there so if if I'm hearing you endorsement of others others endorse that I'm hoping that something we can take away from this yes Sir thank you Sir thank you. Thank you Senator Teague you're recognized for a question. Yes. Thank you Mr chair and I appreciate being on this committee I think this first time years ago I was elected long time ago first time I've been on this committee and I think what you been chair now this committee since Arkansas was a state the. Hi long term nozzle if you've been there yeah. Well I appreciate clarification stuff like that but I talked to the chairman Miller about another issue and I just wanna make of comments is like you know just trying to get everything cleared up I get calls from constituents about like where is this going we know what's happening I thought this so hopefully with the last bill will get this cleared up but to the other issue I want to talk about talk to chairman about was you know recently if you look to to it was on the news that the are they ranked us the top state for violent crime here in Arkansas top five for property in is somebody was elected a long time ago and we try to address this issue and I mean I think the personal protection people need to look at but I'd like for this committee not talk to the chairman about trying to look at you know what steps it's not you guys fall I can tell you somebody was back there I mean we go back go back to two thousand eleven whenever they pass this public protection act you know that actually was not about protecting the public and I know that the funding when I went in years ago for corrections was only like eight percent of the budget in the last budget they did it still eight percent so I hope that maybe with the state police or something like that and and and that we can share substation we can look at this issue about finding out you know what were the steps a goddess were were the top state for violent crime how per capita in top five the court the FBI so that's just one issue I want to talk to you guys about at some point time and hopefully the committee can look at like what we get here because it's not you guys fall I mean it was a legislature in previous administrations that fail to put us where the top so anyway that's just a comment I wanted to make so are thank sure fortune. I believe. A question better suited for prosecutors or the Attorney General but I don't know that we're gonna get to hear from them today as a law enforcement officer you have to read their mind anyway when you're on the side of the road two o'clock morning. So does have an attempt here of. So there's a place that the second amendment. Says I can carry a firearm without prosecution. And the Arkansas concealed carry law says that I can't carry it in that location. What if I did carry it and I had a concealed carry permit. Would that be a felony and misdemeanor or just revocation of my life. So here's the the big dirty secret that nobody wants to talk about is there is no enforcement mechanism at the bottom of five seventy three three of six that's what I was getting that and I appreciate you recognizing that so basically if I choose to not get a concealed Kerry license because I feel like it has a restriction. This imposed on me. The only way that's a restriction is thank you take my license away which if I choose not to get out ahead anyway correct okay thank you thank you Mr. Thank you. see no further questions sure Brown we appreciate you being here thank you very much for thank you. UP next up we're gonna have a sheriff Runyon of sheriff of Sebastian. You will serve please identify yourself for the record we appreciate you being here. Thank you chairman. Committee good afternoon I'm hoping running on the second term sure from Sebastian County which is Fort Smith. I've been a police officer in some capacity since nineteen ninety I was a firearms instructor for the military for over twenty years and I have been a firearms instructor and every other kind of instructor I believe in law enforcement for. At least twenty five years I am not a concealed carry the holder instructor I chose not to do that. Frankly I didn't have the time I was still serving our country but I I thank you for having me here that the the worst thing about to coming up and speaking last scope like if you have to go and speak at a funeral and you have to speak after the preacher we have a lot of us very knowledgeable people here and I appreciate that I will try and be very concise and not reiterate what has already been said a couple of points I do want to make a phone. Is that tough. I don't think that our instructors are legislature the state police I don't think anybody knew what would happen with this program it was it was brand new it one time and I think everybody involved has has tried to do it for the right reasons in trying to support both our state and our our a federal constitution and I think for the most part we have made great progress I think that. With law enforcement. Inevitably if there's a question about anything in our society whether it's mental health whether it's firearms and and they don't have an answer they throw to law enforcement so I don't even know if the state police back in the day one of this I couldn't say no you know if legislation the governor wants to do it but I think they've obviously done a good job with what they had and I am not here in any way shape or form to I am a contention the state police they are I have a lot of respect for a lot of some of my very good friends and I think that right now. I used to tell my legislatures over the last six eight years when we talk about second amendment issues was I said don't you think the public is owed an explanation. Could we Kerry could we Kerry will of court president said we could an obviously this body you know took that up filing and I'm glad they did it was something I was harping on for many years with my local and what time they were afraid the second amendment and I will say this right now there's no reason to be at all time let's face it I think Arkansas is very supportive constitutionally I think that our citizens expect that of us and I know that I feel like once again our citizens deserve to have something there is clear and concise that they can understand and that's what I hope will will come out of this you know this body and I think that sure Brown when he mentioned previously about some sort of commission or committee I think that needs to happen obviously we all know what happens we will joke about the various committees and commissions we've been on over the years but the reality is this is bigger than one group of people is bigger than just the legislature because if I tell you one thing and your sisters tell you one thing is same thing well that's what everybody wants but I think we need to have gunnels Arkansas they're very knowledgeable I've learned a lot from them we need to have the sheriff's the cheese the state police involved and we need a law that our citizens understand and that's that's what I would ask out of this body is is to find a way to collaborate and and spend some time and and do it right it's almost like. You know we got a whole The diapers or put my fingers in it we're trying to fix something every time but we've kind of gotten off course and and you know I would I would. Encourage encourage you to allow the people that you choose however that may be whether at some of the some of the attorneys that right bill some of our our legislators law enforcement I think the conceal carry instructors need to have a voice. I think some some citizens might need to have a voice aren't even involved in in trying to come up with something collaborative that makes sense for everybody and that that's really my point I could go on I had a lot of things but you know you don't wanna listen to me I understand that but I think that you've heard from a lot of folks and we look forward to my chair as sheriff's association and as a share of Russian speakers sheriffs association but I think I speak for all shares and we look forward to working with the administration to the state police has he he is a police officer he understands where we're coming from and and I want to tell you it I I enjoy knowing that we have somebody like him in this position so I think if you put all the people together we can come up with something that will work for all of the legislature all of law enforcement all citizens of our state and and have something will be better than it was but I do think it needs to be you start from scratch you know we we heard too many examples of why this convoluted way as confusing I I can tell you if someone is not explicitly breaking a law I tell my deputies I don't want to worry about whether they had enhanced permit or not I can tell you the difference but I'm not sure that my newest deputy of the county can and yeah they're not breaking the law I guess one saying is it it's it becomes a law for a loss purposes no there's nothing being accomplished so I would a. Your love to a. I go on but I'm not going to but I would I would look forward to what this body can can complete what we what they can get accomplished because I I feel like we're in a good position now so thank you for having me if there's any questions I would address of. yes Sir thank of representative Ladyman you got a question yes thank you Mr chairman of this I hope I'm not repeating question has been asked I hate that but how do you keep your officers up to date you know we pass a law the academy trains and you have said this significant change training but how do you keep them updated we pass a law that goes into effect I mean do you have a general meeting do you give them an email I I heard you guys I know it's a challenge but how do you do that all of the above so for myself I served as a police officer but obviously I've been with the sheriff's office for many years so we will get updates from our socio Haitian sometimes I get calls from our legislators are my senators say Hey this is This is up it's going to take effect and depending on what the law is I will either send an email out to our division commanders sometimes is Hey it's an all hands on deck this is important next week we have a county wide meeting with our prosecutor who who really takes it by the horns and after every session once we figure out what has happened he will have it's a a forty five hour class on any laws that pertain to what we do in our case the sheriff's office and can be your committee I jail a courthouse obviously the patrolling site traffic laws whatever it is so that we use every every tool we can we have in service training of course you know we we are required to have a reserve training continuing education. And so we use we use all that Sir. Are there any other questions from committee. Senator for president you being here I told you I would be quick and concise and thank you so much. You bet. Okay up next Is the time we. We've all been waiting for colonel Mike hair with Arkansas state police. It is your time Sir. You're welcome have five yeah. Welcome to your first one is gonna get better from here. Thank you Mr chairman co chairman members. My name is Mike Hager secretary department public safety director state police Senator hill thank you for your gesture of mercy to be extended towards me I hope everyone listened intently to that I'm glad to see that our fellow law enforcement officers or speak on this topic I can tell you as a police officer first this has always been a great area for law enforcement we appreciate what the legislature did this last session to clarify that further. It's four as the program was concealed Kerry and how it's administered by state police that something that we all inherited something was mentioned it was implement in nineteen ninety six I believe there's only three of us at the group sitting behind me myself included the return Floyd is a trooper in nineteen ninety six so this is something that we all in here you were trying to work our way through it I can say that we're certainly open to conforming to the spirit of the law and the spirit of what this legislative body is attempted to do to clarify the situation we certainly don't want to be part of the problem we want to find a way to move forward through the administration of this program to make sure that we're doing just that and that we are conform with with the spirit of the law the legislative intent having said that there's been a lot of information that was shared I'm not in a position to rebut anything that was said I pretty much agree with everything that was said but it's for is the questions that we have about the program itself and in the way it's administered of S. major my more your to come to me at the table he's our division commander regulatory services and oversees this program and can speak on the topic much more intelligently than I can. All right are there any questions from committee Senator Rapert. Thank you Mr aw so colonel major. We've heard a lot of different types of different qualifications of people that came and testified and it seems that everything we've done as a legislature and what the state police is done as rulemaking. It's just been subject to. Private interpretation by whoever's reading it and uh wall I understand now that there's a curriculum that's given out the laws change. If they just read the bill I'm in my experience been one of one hundred thirty five legislators is that everybody can have a different opinion of of what that says one ACT seven forty six passed. And after ACT four eighty six passed. we got attorney general's opinions. As to how they affected the law. So. What what does the state police put. On the attorney general's opinion. Or are we are is a state police interpreting these laws internally are they going by with the attorney general's opinion is of what the law did what they changed it. Sir Clark. Mike Moyer major for the Arkansas state police when a law is passed then that is what we follow princes the one dealing with the journey that took out the county that's a law that we actually follow as far as the attorney general's interpretation or the pending the AG's opinion they get out then we do look at that but then once we look at what's actually written you know work for work in the law. Of course that's what I think most of my colleagues understand to people reading word for word what in the law can have a disagreement on what it means so you saying that internally you have people that interpret that. And you just take other opinions into consideration or or do you have I mean the courts interpret the law correct and as a city centers law enforcement or the legislature I mean we can make the laws legislators but it's still up to the courts to interpret it that is correct the attorney general's office full of attorneys are all officers of the court I would put more and I do on a regular basis for put more weight on their interpretation then I do my own. That's what you're saying that within the state police who do you have interpreting these laws if we internally have questions and we we speak to our legal staff on it. Okay but that's your legal staff gives you something contrary to an attorney general's opinion which would you go. I don't know the time that they've done that to be quite a lot That's what we got the opinion on that forty six it took eighteen months to get right that straightened out. But we're all trying to address the confusion. And I definitely agree we need a panel or something to try to interpret the changes in turn it into curriculum and and get it out on the street to the people there teaching the classes I think they're turning general's office should be involved in that As legislators we put a rule on our self. We don't passed budget bills without Department finance administration giving us a fiscal impact. So you know many times when we're dealing with bills. That. Change the concealed carry large of or other laws we we get an attorney general's opinion or or get them involved I would ask the state police to differ a lot of credit to the attorney general's office when they do hand out an opinion in regards to. For the second amendment thank you Sir thank you Mr. Yes Sir up. Major I have a question if the where are you and I can't remember the exact title in your division or whatever but is this where are your are you have over the rulemaking problem grading of rules process so I service the nature of the regulatory vision which contains several different sections but as far as the rule making process our legal staff to assist with that we'll meet and go over that and we're in the process start the process to actually do the build a rule making process with these most current legislative changes. Okay thank you. All right. Are there any other questions from committee. Senate. Major you there a lot of testimony earlier about the interpretation on on the rules on this situation what would you think needs to be done to interpret them we're all on the same page. I don't disagree that it would be helpful for a committee to be formed to actually look at the there there I have no doubt the spring to some conflicts between the rules and statutes and it does need to be cleaned up so I think that would help you know open dialogue to go through that one by one and see what needs to be changed are you volunteering to do that I have. Thank you Sir yes Sir. Senator Johnson you're recognized certain. Colonel it's process and would have to form some kind of subcommittee and. You can you can form this. This task force and and you know we include all the parties that are are relevant that have you know spoke today under your authority. And I'd like to see that happen you know just to get to get it right to get it to you laws or rules and everything I know you don't wanna be right laws bit to. But you can you can help you in your counsel can help and and bring all these groups together and I'd like to see that is under your authority. Because you are public safety and and I don't think we will be locking people up that have enhanced carry that to that and an activity at a at a ball game is more trained and somebody that's that's open carry that that just wants to carry so. I would appreciate that under your authority and and with the with chairs or whoever that would like to be on that panel. Yes Sir we can do that. Senator you're recognized. If you do decide to put this a panel slash Committee whatever word you want to call it together to come at. Find a solution all this Senator Rice have volunteered to. Great thank well. Colonel I I appreciate you being here I think I have served on this committee for a good number of years now I think it's awful very a lot of stuff. Can be avoided. With communication open dialogue between of members of the legislature and and. All department we appreciate that of never having trouble getting information. You know I don't know sitting here right now that I'm necessarily in favor of us you know create another committee or task force but I don't you know within your department I think that would think they would be a good idea. I've often said you know nobody grows government like Republicans in the Arkansas legislature so anyway of you know we I and I'm I'm. A county attorney but in reality I'm not because we we got we got to be careful yes about that we we But I I think that there is definitely a need. That some. Organization of individuals with between the the parties involved get together and let's get. Everybody on the same page because that we're. This kind of makes us look. But we can't get our heads together and I think that we definitely can. so I appreciate your willingness to the year of are there any other questions from. Some represent like. Thank you Mr chairman Just curious I mean if we pass a law that goes out you promulgate the rules through your department which that's your responsibility of it seems to me we've got different groups that promulgate these laws maybe differently so what about the sheriff's association and the chiefs of police association. Do they promulgate these laws the way they read them or is it a coordination between three enforcement groups. So the only rules that I'm aware being promulgated or the rules that that we currently have that's approved through the legislature as far as deal with concealed handgun licensing I'm not aware you know local Municipal police departments or share agency promulgating their own rules. But the way you enforce a law. Might be different than the way we person sure us talk about so where they enforcing it the way they interpreted and you're forcing it the way you interpreted. Is that the way it works or is there You understand what I'm saying it might be some confusion seems to be a lot of confusion and and how you understand the law then how it's enforced. And you've got state county and city that enforces the same law but the force of the same way instilling a mask yes Sir. To be honest I would say is it's kind of goes beyond the agency and its more the prosecutor we just give you an example your state police for a little bit unique I started my career in truth paying at that time we had to counties is now for counties did cover trouve. The. Typically law enforcement will yield to their prosecutors interpretation of certain things and what will be enforced and what we're not the way it will be enforced a left rebate which work in north Arkansas through the greatest captain that ever worked with the state police. Not that I'm second go for anything testing but You know when it was amazing we did talk about that later. It was it was amazing the difference you know when I left Central Arkansas working you know under in plaster county and what that prosecutor you know the way they wanted laws enforce interpreted versus going to North Arkansas working in counties like independence Lawrence Cleburne you know areas like that where it was a completely different interpretation those low so and I appreciate your question about how we communicate these law changes I know with state police. After the general session we had a series of meetings we went out to all twelve troops but that included all of our enforcement personnel and we met with them and we took our general counsel with this Mr Shipley's were here with us today and we talked about the different laws that were that were passed in this session when they would be implemented they had emergency clause or not and we explain those laws we open up to questions to make sure that there was no confusion about the law to make sure everyone's on the same page and once we got back we completed the series of meetings. This is Shipley prepared a brief and sent out to everyone in the field to make sure that everyone is on the same page I would suspect that most agencies do that but also suspected we had twenty eight different elected prosecutors in this state and we can appeal to that office I mean there's things that and I'm I hate to say this because I I struggle to give an example but I promises. I'm not good at thinking on the fly but I can tell you that there's things that may be emphasized in say Pulaski County. that would not be enforced in Lawrence County if that makes any sense you know it's it's so we kind of your to our prosecutors and the elected district to to make those yeah that does make sense and I I I I agree with what you're doing there the prosecutor because in a certain district you have the city council and and state police to serve that work with that prosecutor but is that done proactively or reactively I understand you know is it reacting to a case or are these prosecutors do that proactively so you guys know how they're going to rule because you arrest people but they make the decision right so was it done proactively or reactively I would like to think that our troop commanders in each area or talking to local prosecutors and they're they're getting there input on you know what they want the. How they interpret that law and. I can't say that that happens all the time but I know the majority of our commanders will do so and and try to relate that to the field I can also tell you once again coming from Pulaski going to roll north Arkansas I found out the hard way that I would you know make an arrest or something go to court and find out that that was not going to be yeah rescue the same way as it was and say Pulaski County well I agree with what's been said here there's a lot of different players and only fix that's come to the same table I believe that's a good good suggestion yes Sir Arthur. Thank you saying no other questions we appreciate your being here very much I appreciate what you did thank you Sir thank you. UP next. We have. Director from the Arkansas game and fish. Everybody I'm also the director of the Arkansas game and fish commission thank you for the opportunity here today and also to Senator Hill for that very very warm welcome. Regarding act seven seven seven that's on the agenda I I I I would underscore that the Arkansas game and fish commission works very closely with Arkansas state police every single day in addition to the county law enforcement in every single county and so we will continue to support them be good law enforcement partners relative to what's organics Arkansas game and fish commission and health conceal carry impacts us it's very little so ACT seven seven seven will not impact either our operations or are revenue in in anyway and we will continue to let our kids And scary on wildlife management areas for personal defense while they're on Senator hill also asked me to provide a very brief agency update we recently wrapped up past fiscal year and as some of you may remember this is the first year under natural state tomorrow our five year plan for the agency and the agency's finished FY twenty three in a really really good position we were able to add five thousand acres of public access to our wildlife management areas system most notably that's not just more public access for Arkansans that also came roughly no expense to the agency by utilizing partners like the for service and also to Central Arkansas Water we created our own privately institution within the agency to elevate the impact of the private landowner conservationist throughout Arkansas and we're already seeing of more interest around conservation in Arkansas from private landowners but especially around a deer by elevating the deer management assistance program that we offer in the agency we completed construction are on ours on our spring river trout hatchery back in may which we begin in April two thousand twenty one and really if you look at the year as a whole it marks a transition period for us as an agency of where we stop talking about generational projects about generational challenges and we start tackling them you can draw a direct line from those kinds of projects where we are now but if you remember in two thousand twenty one we began work on hurrican lake wildlife management area one of our grand jurors forced the this was critically threaten we also begin work on or a bus by you to view and if mother nature cooperates we will complete both of those projects of this calendar year in addition to that we completed a lake runner. Vacation at lake Poinsett saw pictures of like Monticello today which is not quite full but we're we're getting there and then we also we also announced a lake renovation at lake Conway here in central Arkansas back in June so the ability for us as an agency to to move the needle in a big way on some of these legacy infrastructure challenges is it is something we're very proud of for FY twenty three and we're not slowing down for FY twenty four and I look for to any questions. Thank you Senator Rice you're recognized for a question. Richard thank you record for being here today well the question I might mention you we've visited on the phone and referred to accent seventy seven which guardian which just clarification already. We would consider law but I hope you feel like it's been a good discussion today do your different parties I mean that to me is just healthy One thing that somebody had sent to me previously is a picture of like picked or not in you know where that's at Arkansas game and fish commission funded by the state sales tax loaded firearm is prohibited do you have do you are you aware of what areas you have that you have loaded firearm prohibited up at public sites. No Sir not off the top of my head I don't I don't have a date this was all right but I we more happy to look into and report back to committing in you said right we're back that could be. A conflict with what we're saying The law is And then I had one brought to me by a retired. Respected public official that I wasn't familiar with before I left earlier this morning because I mention we were having committee meetings in places I've got a question allow the light ask when you're carrying a Personal firearm at the store. If you're doing it during hunting season. It it says in in paper before I ask for another parking lot meet with god we have a new rule book brought back to us and that was twenty two twenty three and showed me the caliber that it had and his question was. If he's not hunting during hunting season he didn't have required vest colors that but he's driving down one of the many rural roads it we have a county roads we have Any has The caliber in their of any tax. Is he gonna get a ticket for having a loaded firearm driving down the road through. one of the places that you're saying is not supposed to and. Are you gonna get a ticket price without. He's colors on. What it is I mean that's because there's a conflict here I'm not saying anybody got a ticket. There are conflicts in that so if you've got any thank you can wrestle. Sure yes Sir of one of the ways that we have Right to ensure that our of rules for wildlife commissioners also put a public or a public waters which I would like to thank you the afterwards Sir here with the lake is to make sure that our access rules remain of reflective of what the law is changing around this area is to say very clearly and our records of that people that are on our wildlife injuries and all or water or allowed to carry a weapon for personal protection right the reason we put those qualifiers in their is because there's often an incentive for people to carry a weapon that they could use outside of hunting season for some other purpose than personal protection so the way that though the way the I. rex are written right now it would be up to the discretion of our game warden whether they were exercising their second amendment rights and their rights under Arkansas law or whether they were in fact trying to violate the law and actually use that weapon for for some kind of criminal intent. It just state I mean I won't anybody that's illegally hunting or I'm I'm all for you get them and I think I've told you this I don't get a fraction. the back of negative comments that I got a few years ago and I have a compliment to any patient may not satisfy about it but I think there's been some effort do do not work maybe sometime in we're gonna presume you're guilty of something you know and and that that's helpful that's kind of what we're talking about here today is because again people do carry for personal protection but again if they're doing some outside law we will take care of but I appreciate you Maynard thank you yes Sir. to provide a question just to maybe clear this up a little bit if somebody is on a wildlife management area with spotlight in three oh eight. At a field full of deer at midnight are they exercising their second amendment rights. by possessing a three oh eight or we answer with the spotlight and you know aiming at some I read about a hundred seventy inch book out there and well being filled. I don't want to create any precedent on the record Sir but I imagine if I were a game warden that that that would raise some questions and I'm not about what what that person's real intent was well you just change my plans for the evening. Anyway all right we do have a few more questions of the representative rate you're recognized for a question. Thank you Mr chairman you mentioned renovation like Conway said a quick question on that I've gotten a couple of questions from constituents about the financing and the the budgeting around that project can you speak to that and are are you confident that your agency is budgeted appropriately to see that projects through to completion. Yes Sir so we expect the project to take around five years of and we have budgeted two million dollars for that project in each fiscal year of this biennium that we're now in so I think a lot of people just looked at at four million dollars in two years over the course of what will probably be a ten to twelve million dollar project of of over five years and thought of the Arkansas game and fish commission sister in this government thing where they're making long term plans a short term resources and that's not and that's not what we're doing so we have you know this will be the biggest fisheries project this agency ever to us and we do not think let that lightly and we would not have a gun this process with lake Conway if we did not think that we would have the resources both to begin the project and efficient okay create that clarification thank you. Richard Beattie. You're recognized for a question thank you thank you Mr chairman first just to a comment that thank you for the update on the agency the progress is made and the the state on the record how happy all the when we get that report maybe next year and the boat ramp and she co county is on that list to completed projects. I don't and I know that we both will be happy when that that is our complement and I I do appreciate the the agency's commitment your commitment to that one quick question that I'm getting from some of the guys and and some constituents there in field trials and and different things focused on the I think it's the can't Robinson conservation area this a special use area and the plans of of of the agency to convert that to a wildlife management area and concerns that that would restrict and prohibit field trials from being conducted on that property so if you could speak to that and and and some of the concerns there as well as an ask from myself and probably several the other colleagues that with with bill trials being so closely tied and related to the very important water fail industry for this state and and how you know we're all passionate about working dogs to maybe some way find some way to include an area in that W. may our own that property for field trials it could be a special use area carve outs for so with that could you address that point speak to that yes Sir Like you said representative camp Robinson S. U. A. is a special use area not a wildlife management area because historically this agency has used that of roughly six thousand acres as a set aside for one user group right and as we look at at Central Arkansas growing and more diverse demands of of public land in Arkansas and not I mean not I mean not just from the water I'll retrieving community but also from the fuel trawlers to it also from Turkey hunters also from deer hunters we're being forced in a very real way to the to think more about how we get more miles out of the public lands that are Kansans expect us to have and so we have never said and nor do I expect this to say to feel trawlers you're not welcome here anymore. The only thing that we've done with feel trawlers is say that that that as we try to manage for more deer habitat more Turkey more public access for deer and Turkey and other user groups that we would like for you to use the S. USA and share with these other user groups but we never said that you're no longer welcome here all we said is that when you can do it without user conflict and when you can run feel trial or when you can run field trials that comport with habitat management we would love to have a. Okay thank you. Senate health correct. Richard could you update us on CD yes Sir so we're in yours three of our five year research plan with the university of of Georgia we expect to have some preliminary findings from that come out probably next year that that'll then be peer reviewed in their fifth year of we saw the most the most number of CWD samples that we've ever seen which is is really good for as long as I've been in this job which is actually two years not eighteen months Health I I've just been telling folks that the most important thing for the hundred or here around chronic wasting diseases is keep hunting and get your test it as a exactly what folks are doing which is a really good thing nine ninety five percent of our over eight thousand samples came from hunters they're not targeted Hans it it it came from hunters that is under the rights that if you look it's our tier one C. deputies the average prevalence among white tail deer is around thirty percent if you look at mature Bucks it's around forty percent amateur does are around twenty percent but the spread is manageable compared what we see and other states and work work an ad to count we start we expect to add to counties to R. C. R. C. deputies own in this upcoming break cycle the spring. Thank you Sir congratulations on two years thank you. Represent right you're recognized thank you Mr chairman I'm meant to ask you this minute governance let my mind but I've followed some of the news from the congressional delegations efforts on expanding the flat side wilderness area I know that's probably all federal in nature but is the game and fish commission doing anything to aid or support on those efforts or something that your support of of. Yes Sir we supported that project I know for sure last year in the last Congress we support now we think any kind of public access great not just hunting and fishing and the more Central Arkansas grows like I said in the context of the issue a we know that demand for public access is just going to be higher so we've enjoyed working parks on it with congressman Health and we have been to a few of them to come out master plan meeting so we think it's outstanding and we look forward to seeing it being successful great thank you. Thank you see in other questions read both represent you being here yes Sir thank you for. Of. Folks that just about wraps this up I want to. Follows all of those here who spoke today if you would hang around a few minutes afterwards case some of the legislators have any questions for you one I want to be greatly appreciated. You bet anyway just in closing. We'll be getting back certain background with agencies and and The R. L. C. chairs and this committee will probably meet again before too terribly long of the staff there some stuff up also legislators I would always ask as we talk to people it seems like you know not. Maybe not all the time is in my really care we have to say but occasionally somebody might at least in my case of if we can is always urge the use of common sense. just because we have the right doesn't always mean it is right. And if we can research the use of common sense and and and respect for our men and women and who do put their life on the line to protect us and keep law and order Uh we're grateful for that and and we can get past these a. Disparities in the law with with a little bit eighties and maintain a respectful dialogue most of so again if we just promote common sense I know it's a foreign idea but in a way that we're out we're done so you.