ALC-Occupational Licensing Review Subcommittee

We're gonna go ahead and call the meeting of the occupational licensing subcommittee to order appreciate everyone for for being here this afternoon we're going to jump into this year pretty quick and I don't know that I have any comments represented out to right ago so we're just going to jump right into this we're going to do start off by doing these reviews just reminder to the committee that if you do have any recommendations for changes to any of these licenses going forward you'll have because we're meeting twice this week because we're actually trying to play catch up from last cycle if you do have any recommended changes on anything if you will get those to miss cooper by the next month's meeting then we can get those included in the uh the final report right so with that we're going to go ahead and jump in to this first off we have the arts all state board of public accountancy mister montgomery if you would and whoever you'd like to bring with the whole charles have the hot seats there are there are no chairs. I notice. The. Alright thank you I don't know who would have stolen our chairs but that's yeah and I think that's the first formula or force force all right now when you tell him I get settled in if you would please introduce yourself to the committee and then you're recognized to proceed with any comment you have males morgan legal council or it's all apartment labor in licensing. I'm tim mcgumree the executive director for the arkansas state board of public accountancy. And end you down have any opening statements or comments that you'd like to make. Or just give a brief run down about which i'll do and how it's going absolutely we have about seven thousand active licensees in active license ease retired late and sees and firm licenses certainly we regulate the. Cpa certified public accountants in the state of arkansas. The board was actually created certainly to protect the public interest so we are in charge of not only the licensing that assuring that these are active licensees are getting their certified their continuing professional education. And we also administer or help administer the cpa examination for those candidates who are trying to become cba. And how and and kind of in your in your opinion how are we doing in the state with cpa's to us do we have an officer shortage. Yes mr chair there this is a nationwide issue much of there's been a great deal of discussion about the cpa pipeline the art of the american institutions so if I public allowance are cpa. And the last were which is the national association of state boards of accountancy along with all fifty four state boards and throughout the united states. Certainly that has been the hot topic is the cpa pipeline and in trying to come up with. Things that would hopefully reduce barriers to entry into the profession so there's there's been a lot of things that him that are being discussed in the board the arkansas board is is active in those discussions as well for our constituents and colleagues in your package of information each one of the energies that appears before us there's a list of seven questions that we have asked them to are submitted for them it's are exhibit c two so if you'd like to review all that has information that they've provided on these various questions that have been asked over the years and one question that that I do have and then we'll turn it over see there's any committee members that have any questions a question number five that you submitted here how much does the you know occupational energy collect in fees what are the expenses and what you haven't reserves looks like you collected a little over a million dollars last year you spent about eight hundred you have a fund balance of one point three million dollars so are almost two years worth of fund balance it looks like in reserve does that. Create opportunities for reducing views are for more educational programs is our other opportunities there since your fund balance is so large compared to what you're annual expense is. Certainly with them with the. The cpa pipeline issues we have definitely seen a decline in the number of. A licensees that we have in the state so part of that fund balance certainly is but is used as a cushion in case the income continues to decline okay. The. As far as the the board has not. Increased or change fees actually in in about twenty years so it has allowed the board to cannot remain about at that phone level for a definitely for the past seven or eight years it's. We've been blast to increase probably about fifty or sixty thousand dollars each year if we reduced it by any substantial amount I would fear that that would. This. Be hard for her but to your mission yesterday right who's in seat sixty one alright senator love you recognized. Thank you miss share so sir limit let me get your name again time okay are you talking about are so mismegameri. Yeah. As a look and I think about what you just see it. So you can graduate with a degree in the county you don't necessarily have to be a certified public account at this correct is that correct or the incorrect to perform certain services and perform some research like to do tax work you do not have to be a certified public health if you would so please make sure that mike's close to yourself that way everyone can hear real well i'm sorry to perform tax services you do not have to be a certified public account it wealth management type services you do not have to some of the things that you must be certified as the certified public account it would be the attest work performing and added a financial statements or a review of financial statements those items do require a certified public account to attest to those financial states okay so it as you see throughout the years is there is there just a decline in the certified public account in there is there just a decline in a county not overall that would just be in certified public accountants I do not have any information about. Accounting in general certainly our oversight is just over the cpa's in the state so those are the only numbers that i'm that I really have kept track of okay in the end so so in in order to I guess entice people to be certified public accountants would would and it would take place I mean my sisters are certified public account and that know that she just went from account in the assume wanted this is something that she wanted to do I don't know why but there was but what are the things that you do I guess when when students were graduated with their degree or their masters in the county what did the some of the things that they are your organization does specifically to say hey you know what you are should. You don't want to join the certified public accounting I guess arena well as far as. What are of the other I will stay in there because you said that you we have a fund balance in their since we have a fund balance it would be detrimental but I guess if you're not getting any more certified public accounts. Did you go to meet you to find balances not a decline so great i'm just trying to figure out what is it that you all are doing to color attract people want to become a certified public account one of the main things we've done is the board does have six board meanings each year and usually in the september for the september meeting we will hold that word meeting on a art on some arkansas campus I share we were at circuit southern arkansas university next month will actually be at or consult state university in jones borrow and so we hold that meeting uh the usually the accounting student organization while can host that there'll be present and then once the meeting is over we stick around for an hour two hours meet links with the students and answer all the questions that they might have about the profession about how to become a cpa and any questions that they may have so that there is one thing that we have done the last three years or next month would be the third year that we've done that. We. I mean there is a different idea I just want to see if if you know kind of how you are recruit and then I guess my last thing about it is what it was to pay difference between just a regular basic account and then a certified public account I do not have that information II could try to get that information and provide that to you if you okay is is there is it is there not is some issue I think it's a direct is there not a agency that keeps that then information for us. The. I'll thank anybody dare it would be the department of labor but that just a guess on my part okay I i'd just be interested in new in there okay thank you I would just address that I would think that either the as cpa ordered as because they are nationwide they probably have those statistics ok all right thank you thank you miss shell. Right seeing no other questions from the committee last call i'll okay senator english so could you I have some more comments sent to me about the process you know we're all about making sure if you have duty spouses everybody gets an opportunity quickly to bring their license from another state into our system so could you tell me that process and I guess that when i'm what i'm hearing is as that there is an extra process for a military spouses and who have a cpa license from another state what's the process they have to go through that undifferent then somebody who just graduates and passes the cpa exam. Yes ma'am so if there is if there is a licensing from another state that comes to arkansas the only thing they need to do is obtain a reciprocal license key player microphone up please if it's really hard to hear up here i'm sorry is that better so if if a licensee comes into arkansas and has a state from another but has a license from another state then they can apply for a reciprocal license with the board we make sure that they've had their last year's continuing professional education hours we do a background check on them and and that's with any person that is a that is seeking to obtain a reseparate call license for our military personnel we expedite that process and insure that that is done as quickly as possible so that that can be done so so that they could have in fact we issue a temporary license for them until that. Four process is completed so that includes their spouses yes it does yes so can you tell me what that time frame might be we have not had one so I do not know um we do not have any experience because. I'm sorry we haven't had anybody else come with a cpa license from. Masori oh what for for just someone who is not military la military person we have not had anyone applied for a reciprocal license someone make sure that there is no extra steps for somebody who has coming from someplace else and military person or their spouse make sure that they can go in just the same as somebody who graduate cba exam here. And moves into a job there is no additional steps we expedited and again we issue a temporary license so they could go ahead and practice before that process is completely thank you. Transaction any other license questions right away okay say no gentleman thank you for for being here today can next app we have the arkansas state board of license for engineers and surveyors of the folks representing those industries would come on. In the that report stands as reviewed without any objection. And the so I want you folks to get settled if you would please introduce yourself to the committee and then you make. Yes miss chairman malf morgan legal council department labor and licensing. I'm heaven richardson and the director of the arkansas state board of professional engineers and professional surveyors and I also brought with me are current president murray klein he's a pe and pass president lourie tutor she is a p e as well. Any statement served from from our just kind of give us an update on where you all go from there I would like to begin with a little background in historical information about the board on march twenty first nineteen twenty five the arkansas state board a professional engineers and professional surveyors was created by act two o two of nineteen twenty five. Requiring registration of engineers the board was created to safeguard life health and property and any practicing or offering to practice as a professional engineer in the state. Aca seventeen dash thirty one at one. The board recognize the need for mobility at the time and national standards or model lies we call it with regards to examinations and education so in august of nineteen twenty nine arkansas became a member board to the national council of examiners for engineering and surveying nces. At three thirty five of nineteen thirty nine established the need for certificates of authorization or what we call coa's which were far and licenses. The board became a combined board. Adding the practice of surveying on feb you are sixteenth nineteen sixty seven establishing aca seventeen dash forty eight dash one one. The board's current meg up is nine members there are five professional engineers one professional surveyor one is a door meaning that he is all here's or she is a professional engineer and a professional surveyor one is a consumer member and one is a consumer member that is sixty years of age or older. In nineteen twenty nineteen the board wanted to eliminate barriers to the emerging national standards of practice therefore promulgated rules effective september first twenty twenty not only did the board amend the rules of the board regarding reciprocity comedy license pursuant to act eleven of twenty nineteen temporary license pursuant to act in eleven of twenty nineteen and act four twenty six of two nineteen two thousand nineteen the military license or act eight twenty of twenty nineteen but the board decoupled exam permission from license or process allowing the examines to register and take the n c s exams whenever they feel necessary in the process of applying for licenser. The board amended the rules to give the director the authority to conditionally approve qualified applicants who meet all license or qualifications subject to latter board ratification this allows the applicant a fast paris so they can receive licenser within two weeks of a completed application. The board also clarified the education qualification for surveyor in terms and professional surveyors by eliminating the outdated specified thirty hours of course requirements in requiring proof of completing thirty hours of survey related courses to be combined with the batches degree. The board also clarified language and the board that the board must use the rules of the board when the applicant was originally licensed or whichever is least restrictive. The mission of the board remains the same it's to help protect the life health safety and welfare of the public but licensing individuals providing engineering and land surveying services in the state of arkansas. Thank you. I'm gonna start off with the line of questioning somewhere too that in the last folk how are we doing in the state as far as having a adequate supply of surveyors and engineers. It is a steady increase surveyors consistently it's it's as it's a slight decrease but engineers it's it's a study increase every year so there's applics apply in your opinion I think if you talk to senator the firms they would probably say they need more so we're trying to you know. Provide qualified engineers for that need but there isn't increase there is not a decrease okay alright the other question I have is kind of looking at the money side of things looks like he had were eight hundred thousand in revenue six hundred thousand expenses so it's good that you're expenses or lower than your income you do have a fun balance it looks like at one point seven million dollars so you're here fund balance is almost three times you're expenses so do you feel like you need a fund balance to that large and order to create the the cushion or is there opportunity there for you maybe they use some of that to either uh lower fees or to. Now entice more people to come into the perfection sure. Were a little unique we have what we call and our licensing system is completely online so receiving renewals application everything is online it's the pells we call it peals licenser system. Um professional engineers licensing system. So money you know we would use money for that in reserve the other thing is the board purchased its building on the corner and of woodland and seventh street back in two thousand five and so there is that continual maintenance you know things happen we had a building hadn't been renovated and up to code so we did that in two thousand and sixteen in two thousand and seventeen which depleted our phones greatly and we also had some broken out windows in twenty. And so we had to replace all those custom windows so that is what primarily that money would be used for I say you don't have any any educational promotion programs right now representative ladyman. Thank miss chairman over here can you give me a canaba quick summary I don't want to go into great detail but. What would be the difference in scope of practice from an engineer in turn at a p e I wire their two separate license and what's the difference sure okay so a professional engineer means that your responsible charge. That means that you can design you can stay up and see all you do not need somebody looking over your shoulder whereas an engineer in turn is asked to do things by the professional engineer and his work or her work is checked and they are unable to sign and see all any documents for plans for plats. Does it work. So do we need that because we don't have enough professional engineers are because the the quality of education are the required technical skills are just not needed for that lesser certification no majority of our interns even sit you know surveyor in turns the same thing is in you know engineer in turns is that they are in the process to get the professional license that's the whole goal so we very rarely have somebody that just stays as an intern they usually are trying to complete the requirements to become professional. The. Follow up how important is responsibility I think you I think in engineering they call it commodity but how important is that in to our engineers who are practicing here and certified here and is that for all fifty states or your some some license you have to go to each state and get there but in engineering I believe that's for all fifty states is they're correct we have sixty nine states and jurisdictions and territories and we recognize all of them but to give you an idea how important it is currently seventy five percent of my engineers are comedy arrested proceeding. Surveyors is a little less comedy it's thirty eight percent so and talk a little bit more about the engineer starter things and it's always been that way we've always had about seventy five percent of our engineers are out of state they have they're going to come here they're going to bid for work they're going to do work and they're going to go home so it's very important that we have that nobility not just for them to con so we can promote talent but also that my people can go to those sixty nine jurisdictions and work. So and it's very important. For my professional engineers yes thank you. Thank you what are the things I guess i'm i'm hearing is sort of not the professional engineer but the engineering assistant or technician whatever are their license saying. Requirements that you all have things so somebody might not be an engineer but there are an engineering technician or their. We're seeing that load i'm wondering what kind of of license or professional. Something that they would have to be able to have that kind of a designation and i'm not sure what schools around the state that I know i've been reading about it because sometimes it doesn't require a professional engineer to do some of these things but it does require people with a different set of skills are you all involved in that at all okay so the engineer in turn the requirements not not the internet until night turned about an internet so I know what that is but so many than actually is studying in and would be less than a professional engineer but have a set of skills. And I wish I could tell you where that where i've been reading that but but that is happening some places across the state where companies have determined that they don't actually have to have a professional engineer they could have somebody with a lesser qualification and i'm not sure exactly what that is and I don't know if that would have to be licensed but you're not hearing about now I mean the only pathways that i'm aware of are the engineer in terms and then the professional engineer there are. You know you can still get an engineering degree and you know perform some engineering duties and not be a professional engineer but i'm not certain happen up have to find out more thank you. Okay i'm come back to you just quick and just like that and just a real quick question there is many flavors of engineering electrical mechanical so on what what flavors of those do you license all of them or there are certain ones that you all focus on sure and disciplines we calm disciplines and there are four key disciplines there's civil mechanical electrical and chemical we have licensed all of those there's also sab disciplines within that and an example for civil there's an environmental there's construction their structural there's architectural mechanical there's fire and the fire retention engineer and there's all kinds of what we call emerging disciplines right because you've got a I you've got all this stuff coming out so typically the board licenses professional engineers that have a direct relationship with the public so you're looking at civil mechanical electrical and i've even seen some navel and i've even seen some nuclear cause we had the plant so it it's pretty all over the board when I don't see a later of is just the plane computer I do see electrical computer but I don't see a lot of the computer anymore it is an am assuming it has spelled out in the regulations who needs to go to you yeah license okay representative later. Well I just I wanted to add something you you pretty much at added what I was going to say but I mean i'm a mechanical engineer but in everything because I didn't need that if depending on the type of work you're doing now most cease needed because of the type work that they do because they're building bridges and buildings and so forth but there are a lot of the ones that I am for me with our mechanical electrical engineers that I worked with for years for late large corporations that they're they're not required to get a p e there's no advantage in getting the so they do not do that. There are a lot of people to do engineering that not mother doing engineering if you know what I mean but but you do not be certified unless you're doing certain types of work I think you would agree with me on there so I would imagine very few mechanical unless they're working with civil engineering on bridges and that sort of thing would get certified if they're working for cooperations well there's there's been a big push because there is this need for engineers and again this is all about mobility and if you want to increase your mobility in your presence and you want to start doing buyers depression or some other things another inner discipline to that I would recommend to anybody you know go ahead and get licensed you do at one time get originally licensed in arkansas and then you can go anywhere you want to go. Yeah. This clarification. Alright any other questions from committee members. Represent a right. Yeah and hit your button there are okay yes thank you representative we have assured you in our area of plumbers. Is this a is this hard to get this top of. Certification. Well. I don't know about plumbers. Are you are you talking about a plumbing engineers no want it actually work on you know plumbing for homes residential our commercial i'm an aware of the problem i'm i'm unaware of that problem I think that's probably outside of the scope of what their mission is going on any others. Right saying non thank you all for being here without objection we will file this report thank you and last but not least on our list for today the arts are bored of examiners and counseling in marriage and family got mister gilbor and. Ms eric son which all take the heart see. And again just when you get settled in there go ahead and introduce yourself to the committee and then any comment you have made you know more department health. Well nor ericsson executive director cancelling board. Now make sure you get that microphone close and then you can proceed. Okay I wanted to start by thinking everyone here for your efforts on the behalf of veterans of which I am on I can't tear you how exciting it is to tell veterans that we can give them automatic life insurer and some of them are just crying on the phone with me so I appreciate that and all the efforts that we've seen. Today i'm representing the counseling board it's a non member board we meet monthly to grant licenses and approve applications. The licenses that we oversee our license associate counselors professional counselors associate marriage and family therapists and marriage and family therapists. Our license your numbers have been going up every year since two thousand nineteen with the exception of twenty twenty when we all have problems. And we continue to keep going up so far this year we've had two hundred and sixty two licensed and last year we licensed five hundred and sixteen people. We're currently working on a real revisions to address act for fifty seven and act one thirty seven. We were placed into the council in compact this legislative session and the compact is still forming right now so. We've gone to a national arm. Summit about that and they're still forming all the committees for that. In twenty twenty two we transitioned to a new license your platform so that all of our applications licenses and renewals are now done online so you can pay online as well. And that's all I have and i'm happy to answer any questions okay now i'll start off with a couple kind of similar to the the last two groups how are we doing in the state as far as having an adequate number of these counselors it sounds like or adding quite a few every year and then make sure sort of my part be to that is what areas do you see them going into specifically i'm interested in counters going into the educational system because there's been a huge interest in mental health issues within the public school system and so I would just any and what role you play in that as well so do we have enough and then word of most of the that talent go. Now we we surely need more that's that's for sure we do most of our laces end up working as school based mental health providers in school systems. Four agencies they have contracts with school systems most of the schools that i've heard of that are hiring therapist get grants to do that so and and i'm not sure about school counselors themselves cause we don't license or counselors right I meant counts on yazon related to your version and then it is our large turnover in the industry because you're adding so many every year. I am not clear about what to turn over you mean people who you know they've done it for a couple years and they decide it's not for them and they need leave I think we saw a lot of that during covered we saw a lot of people struggle with how to make a living cause they were doing school by services they couldn't see their clients and then they found some other ways to do that to make a living and II think some of them didn't come back to the profession although they kept their license active which you can do in an active non practicing status. But I don't think that a lot of all of them came back to. Yeah. Right we'll go to senator english and they will go to representative next thank you II guess one of the questions that I have can you give me an idea of what the requirements are to become a licensed. Counselor in marriage family therapist what weren't as requirement about the education and experience and all you have to have a sixty graduate hours in council or accounts and related fields sixteen graduate hours and you have to have a master's degree by then you would apply you would take the national you'd apply with our office and then we would give you make sure that you met the criteria to take the national exam and give you approval to do that so you would take the national council or exam or their margin family therapy license or counseling here merging family therapy exam then once you pass those exams. You finish out your application with us and then we can license you then you would go into an internet into a supervision. As a list international exam thank you. Representative thank you mister chair i've got a couple of questions for your first of all who has overseen the compact. Are you talking about nationally yes I do not know I know there's a compact committee that has formed and therefore commission smaller committees on room making financials and and different things right now okay follow it mister I follow up question through co but I know that amazon csdebists of the social work board made some adaptions with last year testing in cease have you guessed anything to make changes or make that more attainable for folks over the past couple of years I know lpcs and lac's had to do a board examination and then a test is that still a requirement that something that you guys are looking at changing yet we did change that in fact arkansas was the last state in america to do oral interviews up until twenty twenty and we had already written that into our rule changed before covered hit we did do away with oral interviews for everybody will catch and route up with the towns great implemented a jurisprudence exam which a lot of other states do as well wonder for what about a number of continuing hours we are presently traveling around the state moving our board meetings around the state so that more people can attend work where housing were hosting them at different universities right now and offering free continuing education for everyone wonderful thank you. The. Before I recognize that the the the next person i'm okay if if you've got follow up just go ahead and ask the follow up as to help expedite things just don't turn it into a twenty minute diatribe so if you've got one or two follow up to just go ahead with your followups okay representative brown you're next. Thank you mister chair. I'm just curious I know we hear a lot about the shortage of counselors um bet. Be a report talked about how many people have become licensed and i'm wondering if the challenge is on the medicaid side of things because of the. The reimbursement rate is is that where we're seeing the shortage or are we have a massive shortage across the state because i'm hearing lots of complaints from people say we need more counselors we need to help more people there they're more in rural areas that we we have a bigger shortage for sure we have more lpcs of course in the numbers that we've got two thousand two hundred and ninety eight active lpcs right now we've only got six hundred and eighty eight laces active right now those are the people that are billing the medicaid the most they're the new licensees that do the school based on mental health services primarily and so we have we just have fewer other than right now they're all once they get on to full license you're a lot of them open private practices okay well you're you're talking about a field I know nothing else so like is that a lesser designation yes it and once they become this other designation they move on into private practice then they they may choose to yes and they can build private insurances when they get fully licensed are not under supervision anymore alright thank you. Okay represent a vote. Thank you mr chair I think senator english went to a certain point but I want to go past that point because I as we've done the mental health working group we've learned a lot about how we require way more for someone to get a license in the state of arkansas then what they do in other states that either connect to us or what the national requires can you tell me how much more we are requiring. Just off the top of your head or a fixing and do a deep divided I just want to know if you know how many thinking I thought that we were equivalent to the national standards and equivalent but we are asking a lot more of people that are in these fields than what other states are requiring or yes specific course work yes or number of hours that they have to be underneath somebody or things such as that nature we require three thousand hours and super client contact supervision and i'm pretty sure that on a standard with what's in the compact and required to the course work we do have specific courses as other states do that they require and we require and some people that come here from other places don't have one or two courses that they need to take. Then then we make i'm go back and get that even if they've been practicing for ten and fifteen twenty years old now if they have been licensed three years or more at full license or somewhere else then they can get the same license here they don't have any academic examination or supervision deficiencies that they have the doubt that don't aren't equal to ours we waive those and thank you thank you mister chair can any other questions from anyone. Okay senator love thank you machine i'm going back to the lace remind me where who who's over seeing the lace at this point I thought we had I thought we had some legislation and regards to cannot someone organization of a classis so so talk talk me through there are you are you are you speaking about the supervision of them yes yeah what would what board governments now in regards to our board das but we the they have to receive up a hundred and seventy five hours of supervision with three thousand clinton contact hours under an lpc's supervisor that has supervision credentials and we we oversee all of that okay and in this pretty receptible between the state the. It it is not exactly because i've asked at the national conference when i've gone what do people charge for supervision what how how many hours who supervisors they do have restrictions on who can do the supervision that varies from state to state and what people charge for it or if they charge anything at all okay a met can you speak to me about we had a specific piece of legislation where lace not supposed to be governed by the board association. Is are you speaking of legislation this last session yes. Around middle health. At the anthem so there was a bill for old. Two minute behavioral analysts. Okay okay it was put out of this it was going to be under the psychology board it didn't make it out of the okay all right and I was just trying to make their connection account thank you thank you mister chair I just have one question surrounding lpc supervision so what is the difference back with elsius debits if you're an lcs able to do supervision for an lms debit but for an lpc you have to get another credential incorrect to be able to do supervision for laces and I guess my question will be what's the thought process behind that interview seeing many lpcs get that credentially and I know in northeast started definitely assurance of supervisors. Yes you're correct there is a shortage up there we have people every month that come for oral interviews for that credential so we are we're getting them out there every month. That's the only thing we do oral interviews for anymore. And it is a three hour graduate course that somebody has to take and then come for an oral interview. What are they learning though that makes them more qualified to do sure provision than another lpc. There they are i've got those credential systems so I had to go through their class you have to videotape yourself actually doing supervision with an a and lac and then you have to bring it to the class they have to go through it with you what are you missing with the person they they break it all down in those courses. II thought it was beneficial for me I agree with it is that something that other states require yes okay thank you ma'am. Okay any other questions. So I want to go into all right thank you for being here colleagues without objection we will consider that review that's the last item on our agenda for today we're going to meet again thursday at one thirty to take up our next group and was that we are john.