House and Senate Judiciary Committee

The joint meeting of the house and senate judiciary will come to order to the chair see a core at this point in time we have a approval of the september twenty third to twenty twenty two meeting do I have a motion. Have a motion I see a second. In a discussion all in favor of adopting a minute minutes re september twenty third twenty twenty two please say a in he opposed the eyes have it most curious at this time i'd like to recognize center filled climates he may hear my comment of chair I don't have any comments or first meeting to the session so. Really get started appreciate that we do look forward to working with everybody the next item on our agenda is to consider motion to authorize the cheers to approve specialist expenses incurred by the committee do I have a motion I have emotioned over second I see a second any discussion all in favor of the motion please say are any opposed so no the ice have it thank you. The motion carries members what we're doing today before we get in to our agenda so you can cannot follow what we're doing the next item on the agenda. Item d has six items on it we're going to batch those unless somebody wants to pull those out of the batch all this is that we're considered adopting them for further consideration down the road so we have to say will accept as far as if somebody wants to present down the road that's all it is this is not saying we're all in a. A favor of each one of these items is just a matter of so that we can take it up down the road of if a come excuse me if a representative of senator wants to bring it to us later on so with that explanation is there any objection to us batching items one through six under item d. Seeing no objection do I have a motion to adopt item d in its entirety I see a motion do I have a second I have a second any discussion. All in favor of the motion please say I any oppose. I just have it the motion carries so those six have been adopted so that if those representatives are senators want to bring them to us later on we have that all in order next let's move on to item e this is for the adoption and discussion of isp twenty twenty three dash zero five zero to create the offense of aggregated salt against a public transit employee with that I would recognize representative dn hodges and representing charges if you wish to bring others with you to the table they're more than welcome or we can call them up individually just however you wish to proceed but you are recognized if you'll identify yourself. You're recognized to present your interest study thank you madame chair thank you committee so this is a vehicle that I put into interim study during session on the request of a constitution of minos are reasonable transit and it is a is house bill eighteen thirty nine is an act to create the offense a baggarated assault against the public transploy and for other purposes and I do have some guests to speak on this. I'm sorry yes go ahead and bring your guest up i'll have mr dog orner mr farmer. That's gardener gardener mrperiod garder when you get to the end of the table if you're just pressed the back in there and identify yourself and then you recognized. The. Yeah. The. My name is jewel gardner i'm the executive director of the ozark regional transit. Right welcome to our committee meeting mr garden you're recognized to uh speak just and let us know what we need to know about this yes ma'am this is being brought at the request of a transit agencies throughout arkansas i'm in northwest arkansas at this point time and we see a perpetual increase in assault against transit officials transit employees at this point in time we do have employed transit right or behavior protocols in place but they have very little teeth to be able to hold people accountable for their actions i've got a with me at a model from racer back transit I got ken savage from fort smith transit I got because green and just in avery from rocker each of metro and we would like to come collectively to ask that to the further put through and we will be able to have opportunities if requested to provide statistics nationwide and state wide and at that i'm going to turn it over to adam and ten salads. German you're welcome to come to the table when my need to bring a chair in okay. Gentleman wants your seated if you'll just identify yourself with the record and then you're recognized to present. To counter intuitive you see the red light is it's on it's just a little bit backwards but when the red light sign your good well I want to thank you for taking the time to learn from our experiences of operators and i'm the transit director representing the the city of fort smith and the river valley and you know we're here collectively an individually in the interest of improving safety for our employees writership clientele and public in general we humble to ask for your help and providing the tools we need to deter protect an alternately resolved disputes that place our services at risk serving as a transit director for more than twenty four years i'm seeing an up to in agitation among passengers in the public light while the majority of our translation trips are event free and a line within our missions it takes only a few and desirable occurrences to jeopardize the safety of our employees passengers and with the forty first burst the public in general passengers are at the mercy of the bus driver which is very similar to being a board in airline the driver's only immediate recourse to be escalate the hazard is to use the skills they present or the training they received so having signs posted inside the burses and transit facilities indicating the consequences of this will if approve I believe we'll serve as a deterrent and may prevail and and desirable occurrence before it starts so I provided they are representative hardens with a sampling of some of the occurrences that we've had and i'll be glad to talk about those in more detail but i'll turn the mike over to adam or no. The. This is what else you'd identify yourself hello thank you for for having it here i'm out of monday on the director of raiser back transit at the university of arkansas. And i'll echo the comments made by joel and can we're seeing an increased number of of instances of of of assault and and and varying degrees of of interaction between the public and our staff you know some of our drivers come across thousands of passengers a day and in the percentages and the statistics are there and and we have examples of it I have about half a dozen specific examples that have just happened in the last three years i've been at my agency twenty five years and the previous you know twenty years I could count the number of instance on one hand it's just we've we're seeing a gradual up to uptick in an occurrences transit operators are no longer just bus drivers their professionals expect to perform a wide ray of necessary task by themselves on the ref- respective buses they don't have other team members on their bus is available to assist they don't have supervisors nearby at times and are required to make quick decisions regarding safety and security issues another key point to remember is that bus operators are physically seat belted behind the driver's position of the bus making the very vulnerable to attacks this provider bill lay's purpose of purposeful foundation in it and holding those responsible for the offense of accrabetic assault on transit employees accountable for their actions it also offers a level of justice to those employees that are victimized by those dangerous acts by pursuing the passing of this bill further cause further the cause of insuring that are existing existing in future train employees know that they're point important and valued by the transit agencies and by the communities that they serve happy to provide more specific examples and also want to point out you're you're hearing from a number of of urban agencies and in the eyes of the federal transit administration but we've got rural providers all over the state that may not have the resources or immediate access to emergency service like we do this out of a prevention could be huge and in in saving those operators from from from any type of assault in the future. Thank you. Members do I have any questions representative richmond. Uh punch a bit in there. You are recognized thank you member chair do you allow your bus drivers or whoever you're transferred people are they permitted to carry any type of weapon. Are you not not it to a fortunate transit. Follow up. Thank you. Well you say this is prevention that is bill if we pass this bill would add to prevention. II disagree I think that this is just more reaction. That this bill will not be. Influence the put into actually anything in until some and sold actually happens. So you know this might be helpful in that people might. Your at least see some teeth as you mentioned earlier into that and i'm not against this bill don't get me wrong i'm not against this bill but my concern is is that we pass legislation we we push up back you know the the outcomes and and try to to get people punished more but yet. They still get a tact they still get assaulted in all we do is get maybe a an out of flesh later on and so is have you have you thought about trying to extend some other type of protection beyond so that if they are attacked that they have the ability to respond themselves to protect their lives. I'll take part of the I will say that at the university or so we fall estate law according to individuals that pursue the enhanced carrier options we have no idea who those operators may be that choose that option but it but that option is available to him we offer all the protections that we can eh eh is is is. It's the bout of what physical protections we can offer because they are alone they are by themselves and they are somewhat vulnerable in the positions that they're at. Up turn your my car and you've got it. So there you go okay i'm sorry no problem when we ordered our last seven business we did but now the barriers in protected barriers in but our our thought is to actually post signage in the in the buses and in the transit facilities indicating this is a this is a higher penalty you know if you choose to do something like this and and i've I feel like it would help as a preventive measure your me speaking as a transit director and seeing some of the occurrences that happen out there where misdemeanor seems a a lesser faint even but I feel like this might really help and deter something and you know if it's a a two week we want to try to go after every two weekend to help these operators. I appreciate that and and again. Whatever reasonably only honor speaking lights are stuff in your green usually means goal but here in in the legislative world it means stop so thank you. Senator clark you recognize for a question. Thank you manager and first of all I have questions for these folks but do we have anyone here from the ag's office for the prosecutors. Err we have we have bargain to come to the table. Ask your question in them barbedly ready. You know boost in third world countries. You know you see. If you have a convenience store you need to guard with sold off shot. If you have a house in a not talking about an expensive house. Are you need a wall concrete wall with barbara. Or glass on the top broken glass on the top. Um. As I search moving more that direction which I would call the wall as society. Then we have in the last just the very last few years we've got kindergarteners in ali which is. A displanary score for kids we can't control kindergarteners we can't control attacking teachers. The when we passed this law for first responders. I envisioned it having. I didn't think public criteria employees would be the next ones. I am business just keep an adding and adding an adding. So when my let me see it passed my questions for the prosecutors. Do you know how this law is different from regular aggravated assault. What does it do that that regular agreement is holds against the law. Against anyone what does this do that that are normal aggregated assault walls are don't already do. The. May I bring someone else that to answer that. Certainly. And i'm on go ahead and give you a follow up question are these aggregated assaults being reported to. Again for the record old gardener executive doctor ozark regional transit in my opinion the way that this different difference from regular aggregator assault is that the writing public will not understand the aggravator to sale but they will understand assault against the transit employee when we're able to spell out the fact that we are specifically looking at a transit employee like we're currently looking at a first responder I believe that we can go ahead and actually advertise and I we're going to use the terms advertising market this more so that it's specific to the writing public on the bus at the transfer stations at the transit depots and it's relating to a transit employee when it comes to us reporting every aggravated assault that i've had in my systems throughout the air and i've worked in systems throughout the united states every one of them has been reported and of course things get pleaded down get pledged down from aggrevator sold to I myself have been. Let's see cut bruised broken rebs because i'm a responder to my transit employees throughout the us and even in the cases where i've responded to my transit employees that are getting assaulted one way or another I am a hands on kind of guy I will go ahead and intervene to protect my employees and in that case i've ended up with multiple wounds throughout my body and each taste that i've been assaulted on it has been pledged down because in those different states that were in my opinion there wasn't something that was actually dedicated towards a transit employee it was just typical aggravated assault so you think that because it says public printed employee that somehow it won't get played down i'm hoping that between aggregator to sold and aggregated assault against the transit employee that we've got multiple are evidence so that we can cheaper from getting flood down because i'm sympathetic to the fact that you've got more problems in your. Want to protect I would assume not just to employees but other customers are writing public also sir yes and so i'm sympathetic with your problem i'm not. Sure about the solution and so so you had cases personally where. You've been assaulted yes our charges were fall because they surprised yesterday we follow charges or we following charges on a regular basis on these things are we at or or we call in the place since i've since i've been in northwest arkansas which is now pushing ten years every one of the assaults that we've experienced we have contacted fair well spring deal rogers better they'll police departments to get things moving on that and and our rules I may be dealing with a different client hill the new york. But in our fifty years of being in business this year. We've had three or four. Problems I was involved in two or three of those. And in a one guy shoved me. And. I was very clear on the law let me let me sort of the other clearing law and I said call the place now he really warned me to swing adding and I said cold and he said what you call the place I said because you just assaulted me we said I all I do show said you can't touch me right and so are your employees clear. On the law. I would say yes because we do have regular safety meetings we do talk to them about what their responses are we do talk to them about and we actually I will say train them to the best of our ability to defend themselves from a driver see but again they're in a driver's seat i've been here i've had two employees get hit in the back of the head would not even knowing that it was coming we got it on video we've got the person identified we turn it over place departments we file charges and what ends up happening with it at that point in time generally it gets played down so what you just told me though is that we have a law we reported it and you're unhappy about an and I would be too but you're unhappy about although we already have a law. But it's not really handled the way you think it needs to be handled to stop it and adding a adding another layer of protection under the employees I think it would be beneficial though the first lawyers didn't do any good correct okay and this won't be sure of the listener a follow it i. Don't necessarily agree with it we can if somebody else is a line we can move on but I do want to talk to I would like a question pro. There is double fill your recognized well come back to you senator clark thank you madame chair mister garder are you categorized these people are there. Do they find it particularly groups more young people are committing these are middle age. From my standpoint I would have to say there is no real generating asian and race color creed age. But you've noticed any increase in in the danger of writing proposal transit of the last twenty years i've noticed an increase in the dangers to the operators over the last two the operator listen to us are not in writing public transit because riding public transit is inherently safe but it's to the operators right well we watch they we watched on tv last time a young man walk up hand and other men and hit him in the head for not reason and when it was questioned here he said where we have done everything was all right I really had no reason to do. And I thought you know that makes perfect logic you walk a minute at the back of the head and and you have a region you arguments they were friends. The. You don't want to we put strong. Penalties in place for non violent felons. Interstate. You drive away from a police stop that's a non violent fellow in the middle okay. You get your second amendment right to moved removed for twenty years so longer. You can have kids and you can even go hunting with and yet someone can walk at the hand someone on a bus and hit the driver in the back of the head. And and not get charged. With a violent felony. Is that what you're asking that's why that's what i'm testifying I mean I agree with it I agree with it to me that is better worse than driving off them a police stop depending on the situation of the police top desert if it's a young man who's. You know. It lives amount out of road he drives on to his house there is a lot of different circumstances but when someone malaysia maliciously walked at my hand a driver for no reason. And hit them in the back of the salary. That person needs to be put away because he has a tendency to do that again and again and more than likely that person does it at home. And i'll have i'll have some other questions for mr became what he comes up as well thank you for bring this yesterday. Represent richardson and recognized that you manage it could we get the gentleman from four smith back up here for a second. Yes sir mister savage. Yeah. Far blow bring you up at the toward the end so you'll hear everything. Yes good morning sir in and I apologize I was a few minutes late so I wanted to to make sure I understood something this is an ongoing are you seeing this as an ongoing issue in the city of fort smith because this is absolutely the first i've heard about there being issues about this in a way we work really hard to try to mitigate the circumstances but yeah it is an ongoing issue and it's becoming an uptick in in my opinion over you know serving as a transit director for twenty four years i'm seeing more of it. And you know we've had a driver hit the face and you know and I drive a walk around a passenger i'm sorry hit a driver in the face and their parents and your walk and it was very little they they did that that passenger and it's in its again we presume that case to the prosecuting attorney and II know they worked try to do what they can but you know to tell that driver for that driver to see that passenger walk after hitting him in the face it's very hard to do and so you are maintain employees follow your recognized where follow it so are you saying in forcement because I see a ton of homeless minimally challenged individuals in that particularly situation was that individual one of those that are mentally challenged that was a homeless individual but I wouldn't say mentally challenged I think it's more of a tire thank you represent college you recognize for a question thank you manager if your could just look I guess you have the interim city proposal in front of you out there I just want to ask a question about some of the language so you know this what troller amending was put in to code a couple of years ago in response to you know public disturbances and riots and it was designed to apply to first responders specifically because they were dealing with riot situations. And so all of this section of code does that we'd be adding first responders to is it deals with spitting and throwing. Okay so it doesn't talk about pushing and it doesn't talk about hitting and it doesn't talk about things like that. So it's speeding throwing her otherwise transferring bodily fluids etc or throwing an object. So the answer we'd be looping in the the public transit employees into and so if we're doing that I would like to know how many incidents of I mean spitting and throwing things specifically are we talking about versus pushing shoving which are not again dealt with here and in your signage are you gonna say it's only spitting and throwing and leave out contact shoving pushing because that's not specifically going to be called that here. So I would say the sandwich is going to be general and I would also say that those same things you mention or outlined and what fta is now asking us to start tracking and since that was back in june or july since that time we've we've tracked we've had at least five occurrences that now skirt that that area the fda is asking us to try and that does include speeding throwing objects of that nature so I believe it is animal dell said we're also tracking since just since that time for him we've tracked five instances of that of that nature well let me try to ask a different way if I may why are you only interested in dealing with spitting and throwing and not dealing with other physical contactating pushing etc. Why do a bill that way. So I believe I number two the physical contact it laws out there with this auto asking the visible contact has AB and c. Well that refers back to one so in a one that's the physical contact its narrowed down by all the things in a one and and all the things in two were one of the things in two thousand and numerated list there so we're talking only about physical contact that deals with spitting and throwing. And yes interest so that's a great thing it's not actually a bill this point in time to to look at it more closely but I am curious if because again this is right language and that's why it's written this way we're dealing with you know writers throwing and spiriting at first responders and that's why it's so specific to these things other contact is covered in other sections the count. This is it's written this way for a specific circumstance and I don't think the public trans employees are really. The ones that for whom this is intended so just I i'm curious if there's a rationale that i'm missing here about why it's really in this way it if if I may as this goes to exploratory I would actually ask that the physical hands on the included with the speaking heading because I read it as the second section being the physical contact beyond the basic spending hitting throwing about ordered basic spending throwing above that the section two was the physical contact so it was a misunderstanding of my part on exactly what the law is written for because I did not know that it was written specifically for riding situations but it was written specifically for protecting a certain class of worker and that's where I look at it and say okay let's include another type of worker in there. The. Represent as well you recognize for a question. Here we go alright thank you mentioned cheer. So I have a couple of questions and I know representative hardest reached out to me early on about the outside I think she and I were supposed to meet about it never connected on it so I apologize. That I didn't get with you earlier on this to discuss it before today but. I guess one of my first questions is there seems to be this incident that keeps getting mentioned where a bus driver was hit in the back of the head is that correct. Was this a particular instant that happened in the state of arkansas but i've had a couple bus drivers get hit up in northwest arkansas I know savage is also ahead we have one get hit in the face structure struck by the passenger okay and you're from fort smith i'm from northwest arkansas I spring them springdale yes okay for a smith okay. Yeah. What were the injuries to the drivers in those cases. So in my case the driver received a cut below his eye and a swollen I a black eye as a result of the injury and answered out in my case it was bruising to the right side of the head and a few days off of work due to a work related incident. Okay and do we know who the who is the prosecutor in fort smith samter was the one that I dealt with them when we spoke about this and I have correspondence relating to the issue and deputy the elected price now he was a city prosecutor. City prosecutor okay. Yeah III would have to look back at the records on who the names of the people that were involved. Respondingly software everything else yesterday. Okay. All right and do you guys know what the disposition of those cases were in in port smith what happened with that case well I do know that he he indicated he was going to suspend that passenger when they are hesitant to do that as judges but he did suspend them and and this was the first occurrence for that particular person so they indicated they would I guess reinstate and arrest a warrant for him but that's that's that's the extent of what I know what I do know at the time that this happened the after was there and the passenger walked away and it was very difficult for the driver to see that and I know and that he was received an injury from theirs and do you know what the charges were the defendant factor I do not know sounds like a misdemeanor if it was a city price i'm thinking yes okay and then the springdale case you know what charges the no sir but I can get that information okay yeah that would be helpful wine just account of a valuate how these cases would be shared around the state when they've happened because. You know you were all every case you have to treat each case individually each case as unique backs it's hard to know. Depending on the injuries you know a certain backpattern may just a certain backpath may not depending on you know a number of factors including the injuries that were. And I sustained so you know these are all important details that you we need to know when we're trying to evaluate whether or not we really need to change the law. But the second thing that I would ask is are you guys aware that there is already a sentence enhancement. For causing injury to a public transit employee. I was not aware no sir. Here's arkansas code five four seven oh five sentence enhancement for the offense of targeting railroad or public transit employee. And it goes we go through and it appears that if it's a class a misdemeanor with the possible since it's greater than ninety days there's an additional period of imprisonment of not more than one year if it's a sea felony or a default only or an unclassified felony and additional period of imprisonment of not less than six months but no more than two years. And if the person's convicted of a wife all on the a felony or b felony and additional period of imprisonment of at least two years but no more than ten years so I think you know. There's all it appears to me there's already a sentencing enhancement that we have on the books to try to. Give these employees. A little bit more protection in the event that they're they're targeted. And so I guess you know the question that would have is if that's already on the books why do we need to make a substantive change to the law of what constitutes aggravated assault. If I could say one thing I do I do feel like. Someone in the community that the cars as problems if they know it's a felony or any type of a selling I do think that they're gonna steer away from there in comparison to the misdemeanor that and I affect like being able to post that on the buses around the facilities when help to mitigate or possibly prevare that kind of action and to me that would be a worthwhile action to take if we could do that and that's the help that we're asking for. Search medicare. Mr mechanic you correct me if i'm wrong after get danches prosecutor automatic correct yeah. You know it seemed to me like it's already found if it were that far in the assault. That is plain his day we all recognize. And would agree that we're living in a more dangerous. I divided world and we have in. Many many years and it's not going to get a better. With eight million people coming across the border the mini do not know our laws. And what would I like to know is. What is is there one thing in particular that caused to these people to rise to the level of going up in striking the the the driver. Is it because that you don't feel like there are time. What is it. I've seen i'll call them arguments at the fair box based off of everything from having the correct fairer to where are you going to general conversation in people will get on ebus at some point in time and just be mad about like and the only nice face that they actually came across during that day was the transit operator that said good morning ma'am good morning sir and everything falls apart from there. The. So it's really not saying one legitimate agitation just. Depend on how they got up that morning I think so. And I couldn't echo that and say the same thing that's a first thing we look for when we investigate an incident was it provoked could it have been prevented if it was something simple as a fair you know back away from it and you know the affairs there's no fair worth you know getting heard over now promoting her provoking and agitation so you know these are the things we look for and try to work with our operators on is the steer away from anything that's going to agitate a person to that degree but we don't live in a perfect world that's true we do not live in we never will live in a perfect world and most of this is going to happen you'll have to you still have to buy the law right because without the laws we don't have society. We don't have a country i'm sorry most of these sense are unprovoked they want to see. But thank manager. Representative rare you recognized thank you madame chair my questions for the for the transit folks you you'd mentioned that the outset that there's been an an increase or an uptick in the number of attacks or some more instance against public transit workers. Is that something you can quantify or they're any statistics to that fact and is that just a national trend or are their statistics that are arkansas based as well. Um yeah adam here has some statistics. Okay if you don't mind I read this the federal transaction restriction reports battery between two thousand and eight and twenty twenty one transactions these nationwide reported average of two hundred and forty one assault events on transit employees per year reserve transit has seen an increase in employer sites was a with a long with other dangerous acts that had the potential resulting in assaults with dentally weapons he's got one two three four five six seven eight particular assaults and that is documented here so it is an increase that we're seeing what time period his is twenty one to twenty three and the two hundred and forty one average annually is two thousand eight to twenty twenty one so what what we can actually do is we can get documentation and statistics for the group and present them to you. Okay i'm seeing in the that the penalty here is a class sea felony for. Aggravated assaulting us to first responder in this bill public transit employee what is the penalty for aggravated assignment just against a normal person. The. Okay. Well I certainly appreciate your concern for the safety of your employees I think that's. Obviously a good thing and II understand why we have an enhanced penalty for people who commit agreed to solve against a police officer that's obviously an extremely dangerous job that we asked those people to do to keep a save I guess from a philosophical. Standpoint. Why why do we need an enhanced penalty for assaults against your employees as opposed to just any employee who bands himself at a height and risk for a salt maybe a bank employee may be a convenient store employee or fast food worker I mean I have seen these are professions where you sometimes encounter people who are trying to rob or customers get angry and and commit violence. What why the distinction there from a personal philosophical point of view the transit employee is not only liable for themselves at that point in time while they're driving the vehicle they can drive it and we're up to a thirty thousand pound torpedo down the road at forty five miles an hour of summaries punching him in the back of the head is are attempting to do that attempting to control the bus that has anywhere from one to forty people on it and also is in the middle of traffic we've got to get we got to compassion for a high volume medically damaging life damaging incident with that one hit to the back of the head just because of the fact that we have so many other responsibilities including the safety of the general public the writing public the driving public in the walking public all at the same time and somebody decides that they're going to go ahead and suck a punter driver in the back of the head at that point I think that anything that we could possibly do to their the seller would be worthwhile okay thank you yes sir. Center clark you're recognized. The. Thank you madame chair. The. I am glad that we've been made aware of this problem it's certainly one that needs to be sold. The and not just for your employees in italy I will assume that the signage. Is about. Warning people that are penalties not tell them that their behavior. Is wrong because surely we know that hitting someone speeding on someone etc we already knew that for we got on the ****. So. But i'm also interested in i'll just use me for the general public because while that behaviors unacceptable. For my own safety. We need to be sure that these things are controlled because. I'm not you know i'm sixty three thirty three. And if it in it has the person who's doing the assaulting happens to be. Six five and two hundred eighty pounds and all muscle. I can't sit there as a passenger. And let somebody be insulted. Without intervening I mean that's a marasine and marty in the michael also I don't really won't get her either. And so I should it's interesting that we're having this problem. In this top of business because it's not that we don't have problems on the places as a related but we don't put up with it I wouldn't expect you to put up with it or young government but different rules in laws. Then what I am and and what i'm saying by that and but other businesses. Are you allowed. Two. The. Bar. Customers from using your services. We are and we each of us all of us agencies have our own passenger regulations that uhm we've had a committee to help us form in many times those committee members are made up of writers themselves so yes there are avenues that we can use to help when an incident happens but you know what we're looking at here is a deterrent away to to try to prevent it in the first place and I know it assigned may not totally deter it but I think it would be helpful um and not just the sign with the action I would be very helpful so i'm not sure if that answers your question I don't disagree with you that I think the sign could be helpful as a marketer you know i'm always looking for not only don't want to run an ad but what words do I want to use to communicate what will be effective. The answer do you have as any of you that are here that represent the transportation companies do you have a zero tolerance policy against this top of behavior we we specify that in our passenger regulations that the transit director has the authority to band someone especially if they're if they are causing problems on the bus and am becoming a safety issue but has the authority. Because I come up my experience conspect my day of school but. And i've been a lot of school buses. On his. Again different different authority different things but everybody certain receipt that saying a regular buster or by certain receipt their bike was quiet a minimum of school buses that were completely out of control same rules right supposedly the same rules and so what I asked was not do you have the authority to put somebody but those do any of you have a zero tolerance policy like we do at our storm every time that we've had anything happened like that like you talked about the police have been called and we have we have if it winning for we push prosecution as far as it could be pushed because we have a zero tolerance policy we don't we've never said we have a zero dollars also we're just human beings in its culture we said you're not going to act that way here you may act that way somewhere else which don't act that way here rarely have we had to do anything because most people. But so is there anything that's causing it to be acceptable there and like it in how much control do you have as a as a transit operator it is a public service and many of times this might be there only avenue of a reason that that's because you know I get that sometimes from school so we've got well this kid has to give an education well that's what we have ALE. Are and so but but I don't have a problem and i'm actually a really nascar but I don't have a problem saying. No if if if you set a home and star. You don't get through this bus. And you'll not do that and to answer your question on the zero tolerance policy senator i've got in my passenger behavior policy I have three levels of violations classes class b classes classic class c is the zero tolerance portion of it classe you can suspend somebody from anywhere from three to thirty days class fee is thirty days to ninety days and class see is your off the system completely one of the difficulties that I particularly find especially in northwest arkansas i'm serving four different community spring deal fairville rogers and better bill we have somebody that does that has an incident invented and i've got twenty five different buses that are running at any point in time throughout the community we immediately go ahead and suspend that person from the system by the time the driver's down fairville here about it could be three or four days later in that person has found a way to weasel our way back on to another bus or has flat out lied about what has gone on and they get on a bus even in the same community because it's a different driver now are different drivers shifts that type of thing so they continue to show to demonstrate a active threat to the system because they are they may have been run through and processed in the local facilities and local our retention facilities jails but because it's such a low priority I would say in my eyes that assaulting a public transit official they're out you know twenty four seventy two hours in the back on the street in creating the own version of chaos. Mountain chair I would like to bo. But or whoever you feel like can come on it. Yeah. Yeah it's going to use similarities and this and. Someone who riding back as a pilot on applying in he's trying to get in with the carter and crash to blind. Because he's been smoking mushrooms you see similarities in this. They're also public. Yeah you're off you be read. Sir clark can you turn yourself and I think that may make theirs come back. They're having problems with people who were taking delta a listen genix getting on the bus. M. Doing things like this I cannot say that i've seen anything more severe personally than the smell of alcohol on an individual at times when it comes to and putting the picture my mind of on emma street when one of our drivers in the street and spring dell one of our drivers told the passenger stop swearing stop using that language i'm going to pull over this is where you're getting off the bus because there were small children on the bus and their driver did not want that individual on the bus using a language on his phone talking to his best body or whatever and as the guy walked off the busy soccer puncture in the back of the head I don't think there was anything in there as far as substances that an individual was utilizing I really believe it was us setting an authority or authority to an authoritative approach to behavior and the individual not liking it and of course lashing out irrationally striking our driver in the back of the head the bicycle you do the same thing that in airline. You carry the public yes sir in that someone comes up in soccer punches someone on an airplane first thing that airplane does is land and get that past you're off in their police waiting for them. An end from the time that we can take a hit to the time we get it reported to the time that the bus has stopped safely and the doors are open because we won't leave the individual locked inside of the bus that is that is upset at this point time and lashing out physically in the time the police response happens we're talking three to five minutes in that person's high foot and a down the road. Okay thank you mister gore yesterday. Bob if you'll turn your microphone on and identify yourself with the record I think center clark will have some questions there may be some others but even shed some right on that will appreciate it bombing me and prosecutor coordinator nobody but I can answer some of the questions that have been asked go right ahead. First while you get up reps prosecutors association at first time i've seen this bill this morning so i'm not speaking a certainly for against the bill but I think I can answer a couple of questions I believe center clark earlier you mentioned the regular aggravated assault in in the elements or are very different than what's proposed in this bill and that's why this is a separate you know but statue that you are passed I believe in twenty twenty one to deal with first responder so this is amending that start you it does a couple things that add to different elements than aren't included in the regular aggregated assault statue the regular eight regular agreement assault statute is a seafelony i'm sorry is a defaulty so that zero to six and an answer to your question representative this is a sea felony so it's it's three to ten so this penalty is increased because it is a sea felony rather than in the regular agreement assault defelony so that was first thing I want to clarify I believe representing gasway already mentioned a lot of this is going to depend you know records regular salter and aggregate assault based on the injury and also the individual that you know is injured so that's gonna be a case by case basis you know in most situations to determine whether it's an aggregated situation or not another I guess question they came up earlier was dependent city attorney versus prosecutor aspect as you all know most of the time all how felonies are handled by the prosecuting attorney's office the city attorney's handle misdemeanors and it could be that I a case is a felony goes to the prosecutor and inside me and reduced to a misdemeanor but I believe the situation discussed earlier the individuals that rename those are city attorneys so i'm not familiar with any specifics on that as to whether this is a problem that the prosecutor's face and on a regular basis or not I could certainly ask that but I have not spoken with any prosecutor yet about this legislation but I can get that information for you but just because I have haven't heard about it doesn't necessarily mean it's not a problem it just means that it hasn't gotten maybe to the prosecuting attorney and then ultimately to to my office so II think those are the questions it came up that I was trying to jot down and there may be others but I hope those answered the ones that were already orienced. The. Yes I think you enter most of them and let me see if we can clarify increased penalty here increased penalty for these behaviors. The order behaviors in the assault. Regular aggregated assault that are not included here. Yes or that in it again it depends how I can reach you to states I don't have a criminal code with me I looked it up on my phone the regular aggregated assault statute is five thirteen two oh four person commits agreed to salt if under circumstances manifesting extreme a difference to value human life here she purposely are one engages in candidate that creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury or two displays a firearm in such a manner that could save substantial death danger of death or serious physical injury to another person or impedes or prevents the respiration of another person or circulation and other persons blood by playing pressure on the chest throat or neck or by blocking the nose or mouth of the other person and under any of those three scenarios that would be a defelony okay. The if I may the gentleman on the in you said that you had a policy and I appreciate that you do that see if it's once. The. No flyer basically zero tolerance what are the offenses and a and b that are night that. The simple thing such as throwing your trash inside the bus opening up an emergency window delaying the bus intentionally simp simple things that would that cause us to not meet service standards so if if you stand in terms in front of the bus for five minutes while the bus is attempting to move and finally you convince yourself to get out of the way now the bus is delayed anywhere from one to forty people on the bus and now light for their next transfer or whatever we can go ahead and suspend you from the system for up to a week thank you for explaining yes so there's nothing in a and b basically you do have a zero tolerance for a soul yes sir okay it's just. Miss behavior yesterday that yes the playing music too loud swearing on the bus that type of thing okay all right thank you thank you. Study that's not in act nine fifty five which we passed in twenty fifteen our twenty seventeen that enhanced the penalties. Against public transportation employees what what is it. What's in this particular one that's missing in the other one. I don't know sir because I could not find anything else when I did a search for arkansas on transit employee in assault. Well in twenty something we pass this and I think that and this is my opinion but I really believe that you need to go back and look at the enhanced penalties in the existing law on its act nine fifty five. And compare what you're proposing right now to what exists and then if there's gaps or holds or things like that then you'll come back with something that will fill that. They will fit better to whatever your situation is that's my personal opinion and then as far as the sign serve that you want to put on your buses and things. We have enhanced penalties already I go ahead and put him up there they don't know what you're talking about for the most part other than you're going to get slamped harder than you usually would and so that's your i'd go ahead and do that but I think we need you know really before this moves on I think that we need to go back and take a look at the existing laws and see what was done and and and clarify what still needs to be done that's just my opinion would you agree oh yes sir I believe that any type of homework is necessary to go ahead and be successful all right thank you madame chair thank you german. Representing collins who recognized thank you manager and and so this calls back a little bit to representative raise question couple minutes ago and I thought it's a really good question about what makes these types of employees different from other types of employees in sensitive situations who are vulnerable to the salt in and you have a good answer I think with regard to the bus and you know you've got these other souls on board that you're responsible for its moving vehicle so my question there is that makes a lot of sense for bus drivers makes license for a train conductors but there are other public transit employees that are not bus drivers or train conductors they work in an office you guys are public terms and employees so II think I wonder about the breath of using public transit employee in this situation and can you answer representative of his question with regard to the drivers you know what makes someone who is setting in an office. Taking you know selling bus tickets for example different from a bank teller or d employee who might also face frustrated customers I mean tell me about the difference excluding the bus drivers if you can sell again philosophically they're my employees and I want to protect my employees whether it's a mechanic that is working in an open shop whether it's a road supervisor whether it's front desk clerk whether it's a receptionist whether it's an accountant they're my employees and i'm going to make sure that I protect my employees. Sender hammer you're recognized for the last question. Thank you very much is I just caught in a little bit late but is it your intent to put posters up inside the vehicles just to warn people that what they're about to do is going to be treated as felly oh yes sir okay and you don't have that currently no sir okay so I would just say we passed a law recently doing the same thing for nurses where it is posted in public places the doctor's officers car practice officers have seen my local place and in the buzz back seems to be that that has at least brought a level of security are better feeling to the employees and it has helped to deter some people because they can all each point to which i'd encourage to do that but to that point bob if somebody does assault somebody and the signage is posted does it make it easier for you to convict them because they've been served noticed before they committed the action that it's there said i'm not sure that would actually make it easier to convict or not but I do I do agree with you that does notice provisions and that bill are making a difference in people are talking about that but i'm necessarily think that that was something it's going to make my chances of getting conviction easier or not okay but at least as far because i'd have a hard time proven that they that they saw that or knew that but I don't that that wouldn't interfere with me going forward with the prosecution right but as far as the buzzer the awareness or they look making people where it has held yes so I think would help here thank you thank you matcher. Represent gas way is made me into a liar recognized for the last question represent gas. Thank you madame chair so mr mcman I want to call your attention to the proposal that's currently before you. With regard to aggravated assault. Have you had a chance to review the proposed bill. I looked at this morning yes sir I think one of the things that. You know I would point out about this particular proposal is it only applies to aggravated assault. And the way that it's very specifically defined in this bill and in this existing statute that currently relates to first responders would you agree with that yes and so in order for this to apply is is they've discussed about to a public transit employee it would only cover a very specific types of conduct which would be and I think representative of college pointed this out earlier. A physical contact by spiding throwing transferring bodily fluids patheting's human waste at one way or throwing an object such as a brick rock bottle projectile etc. Uh depth someone should know would cause harm. But it doesn't cover lots of other types of conduct that could be directed to out a public trans employee. Such as threatening their life and and when you talk about assault that's a separate and distinct defence from battery actually punching someone which would not be covered by this proposal is that correct I believe so yes and so if you we we talked about the senate's enhancement that currently exists and I look better we pass that twenty seventeen that was a bill sponsored by representative hall come it was a house bill senator sample was the senate sponsor on that act nine fifty five of twenty seventeen. And have you had a chance to review that I have not okay well that's that is existing arkansas law. And II give you the code section again five four seven oh five. And it very specifically defines public transit employee. Uh as a conductor bus driver the type of person who would it was often subject of these assaults. But it doesn't what I would point out with regard to that particular citizens enhancement that we passed in seventeen does it it doesn't just apply to this very specific course of conduct it's mentioned in this proposal. And if you've had a chance to review it now that you will but it applies to any criminal offence that someone may commit against. A public trans employee as defined by that statute which would be a bus driver railroad conductor engineer. Uhm so whether that's a terrorist threatening whether that's a battery whether that's all where there's any type of criminal effects. That's already covered by the enhancement. And so I guess as representative richmond pointed out. If you want to sign. I would start there i'm not think you can post that sign today. You know notice according to per arkansas law at nine fifty five twenty seventeen. Any targeting of a bus driver. May result in enhanced penalties including whatever you know I think those were signed you can put up now based on that act that we passed in twenty seventeen. And I agree with representative richmond if there's more that we need to look at we certainly can and so then this with a question wouldn't you agree yes thank you. Search their field do you have something you'd like to add yet a matter double r listen you know i'm a month of guys for two hundred fifty years we made laws. We've got laws after laws after love. I think what our problem is we don't enforce the laws we have on the books. We've got plenty of laws on the book that deal with all this we just need to force them and I think I think sent to a representative for richmond and get and represent gas way had to get out there put the signed up less enforced the laws that we have on the books already and see whether it goes the argument manager is to recommend and thank you for coming to the end of the table thank you represent hardest you've got a couple of people who have not had an opportunity to disp do you wish for them to make a statement real quick I believe we have becker green and just an if they would like it make they say they were good or then at repsy hudges i'm going to recognize you to make any less closing remark I appreciate you madam chair in the committee for hearing as this is a problem that he came came to me about and it can a structural remain the reason why decided that I would love to run this is that my daughter when she was a student the parking horrendous so she would park at the mall and she would rather raise your bank transit into the campus every day and you know some of the things that she had seen and it you know it's you just want to make sure that not only protection the best driver but other people's kids going to school or the people getting to work you know it's it's bus full of people and it's super crowded city so II felt it was a good bill to get in front of see if we can work on it to try to make our community safer up there. Her say how does we appreciate the fact that you've brought this issue to us I think we've had a good discussion this morning a members we do need to go ahead and adopt the isp twenty twenty three zero five zero seven representative hard just can go forward if she needs to to make some changes or maybe go to a different code section so do I have that motion. I have a motion to have a second I have a second is there any discussion on the motion all in favor please say are any opposed as have it has been adopted once again thank you to our guests for coming we appreciate you driving down and coming this morning and presenting this and what was here about the issues you're having representative hard just thank you very much. Thank you. Members next step as item f the adoption discussion of isp twenty twenty three dash zero nine two recognize representative lany fact to come to the table to present his interest study. Members while representing facts going into the table I want to call your attention to we have an exhibit that is the legislative the impact statement from dfa on this bill. Represent fight you recognized thank you very much may I at this time invite. Mistakes appear and also miss williams selling a davis and barbara williams if you'll come forward you'll be. Welcome to the table. Come represent your blanket five district twenty three this is original house bill sixteen ninety nine. And this was brought to me bar constant constituent here mistakers my right are i've spoken to her own serval occasions and we've emailed but this was the first time we better chance to made in person and I had a funeral this morning I just got here so as to say i'm not better and also to my left miss we i'm two years with the with the division of child support and she's been very helpful in this bill right here what does bill is designed to do is is to when in may approaches a perol that I work with end up working with the child support to make sure that uh the child sport obligations are met by the perole. And what this build would do it's pretty simple it really tells what is going to do in the title. Well when I did the bill I didn't do a physical impact probably that should have done that and when miss williams when I met hers when I power the bill she approached me and are so we did a physical impact and when we did the physical impact. We found out the section three possibly balance federal lol and also there it's about two hundred thousand dollars to update software in which to do this. So it was close to the end of the session and that's when we put it into an interim study. What i'd like to do is misdavis here has worked hard on this she has associated. And I think it's I think it's a good bill but I think it has a few hurdles it has to get past and i'd like to introduce mistake is here and let her speak ms davis if you're just pressed the battle sell for the record you recognize to give your statement hello bank either have a main american leaner davis. I came to work on this from my own personal experience. Um. As far as trying to more effectively serve modification paperwork to. Someone who has been in carcerated and needs to have. The income change from the. Little to no income in jail or prison to having the modification paperwork that says there's been a substantial increase or change in that income. My experience it span ever six years and were still working on modification paperwork so. The current process is and challenges are great I there's a long list of things that I would love to get into to change but I thought this would be a great starting point to be more proactive instead of reactive and wasting. Taxpayers money time case workers time and I really feel like. If we get all collaborate and that involves and the officer child support are so corrections if we're talking about the parallel process that is where I think it should start in their very beginning instead of. Six years down the road and we're still chasing after trying to serve those papers my personal experience i'll just let you know I don't know if any of you have been plus to have the the journey that I have been on I assume not. Yeah. You know my ex words are had violated protection or multiple times the final last drawer obviously violated there was a please stand off he had found me and. All the things and so he was put into prison their child support order was changed to reflect an income of very small while you're in prison once he was able to be on pearl. I naively not knowing all the process and red tape waited six months to proceed thinking we'd get a chance to get on a speed and then try to do the modification paperwork. From then it's just been an endless. Chase are trying to serve him they don't have to answer the door if they're not at a workplace that concern that does not happen so there's a lot of things that go on after the fact that waste a lot of time frankly and resources and. There's not a system in place to more effectively do that so what I would like to have done is in the beginning have those changes where. Once the person is on pro in their actually meaning with their pro officer they do have to report and they get their paperwork that would be a best time to serve modification paperwork now as far as the the rules of it has to be a process server a share if you can't have the pro officer server because of the information shared. And that would be my preference is it's done right then with a process server there's a long list of state process servers you can get to show up if if that's not an option and i've done my research and tried to speak with. Ah i've checked spoke which has support i've spoke with the corrections I spoke with the circuit court. If there is even one person that is in the charts were office that can be responsible to receive that information currently the only way they share information is through vineling which is actually public information so you can't put a lot of details on that that's anyone you can log in right now and look at anyone as a public but you can't put information on their related to. This specifics you need an upcoming it just tells you their case number if they are going to bound pearl. That sort of thing. If there's a way to clam rate with agencies because we're all trying to do the best for these kids and the families you know I was lucky I had family that helped me along the way and this isn't anything it's going to change my circumstance my two older ones have just my oldest as a yes marine now is doing well the second oldest he just graduated there out of the system I have a fifteen year old but that's not why i'm wanting to change II feel sometimes you know we guys do things and god can work things for good and I feel like for other people that come to the situation that if I can make. Any sort of changes that makes us easier for them I feel like i'm pretty intelligent person I went to college I have a master's degree and this has been a challenge for me just to navigate so imagine the compounds of someone else who then has to turn as I mention maybe they don't have the resources and family to support their turning to other you know if if it's a foods down some other sources they also pull on on our tax payers and. I don't understand if it can't be even as simple I know there's been discussion of putting in a whole communications program and that would cost you thousand dollars I don't know if there's not just a simple this is email you know they know when the when the when the. Person comes in to the pro that they if they have a child support and then that can be shared between the agencies when I have spoke with them they say no that's totally channel supports area challenged for it said you know we try but this is where our hands are tired and what we can in can't do so it just seems to me if there would be a way to catch this the beginning and and clarify across the agents to use we can make such a difference and not have to go down this road as in my case and many others I mean i'm i'm not here just as I said for myself i'm here for all the others that have come to me that have said this has happened to me this is where i'm out with a process and hopefully for someone in the future they don't have to go down this throat that I have it's very frustrating i've gone through countless case workers you know i'd spend at least six years since I started. And to keep added to to make the changes would be best for everyone I think. As I mentioned if you are not getting that child sport you know transport such a social and economic problem and it affects everything where if you're turning to let's say they're going to have to turn to get food stamps or something else to help support while they're not getting the accurate reflection of that income that they are at. You know the average average cost for that for a family is around six hundred things like amount per month if you multiply that times the year I would have got maybe over eight thousand dollars a six years i'm bennett it were looking at nearly fifty thousand right there was just myself one person in the system so almost fifty thousand dollars for a person like myself and were weighing that with two hundred thousand which there are many others not. Just myself that the I ran into this but I don't that's why I would love to acclabrate and work because I don't know if you have to develop this big system if you can just make it in. Quite simple and just have a representative with in child support and with the process in the term for corrections because we're all in the same boat wanting the same thing and if they can speak with this agency in this agency can speak with them. Those are just some of my takeaways from my personal experience that would made a huge difference. Represent richmond do you have a question for this witness or do you want to go ahead and hear miss williams first and then ok miss williams if you identify yourself and you're recognized for your testimony. My name is barbara williams on the administrator. My name is barbara williams on the administrator for the officer child's fort enforcement I thank you for it inviting us here today I would like to speak a little bit about the processes that we already have in place at the also child's for enforcement to deal with exactly this problem i'm and i'll refer a little bit to the impact statement that was filed during during the session which lays out those processes that are currently in place and have been for a number of years i'd also like to give a little bit of background about the child support program and. Add as we go for it some of the app I find that many times people aren't as familiar with it the child support program and what it provides at the program is a state and federally funded program charge with providing services to establish collect and modify childs for obligations for a single parent families parents receiving medicaid ten of cash assistance to snap benefits are required to cooperate with the child's board agency as a condition of those benefits and then once they leave that those that public assistance they are their child's port case remains open until they request that it be closed or it's close for some other reasons. However services are also available by application to parents who who not received any kind of assistance at all and just under half of the families that we currently serve are in that category of never having received assistance or not currently that being said we do not provide services to all other families in arkansas and with shout support is ordered we do work with child support agencies in other states to provide services when one parent lives in in that other state and typically when the parent responsible for providing support it lives out of state in there particularly if that their child support order is issued in that other site that states childs were agents that you will work with us to provide the services based on the resources and procedures that they have available in that other state and I believe that maybe some of that that issues that mistakes has faced in her situation. Out of our current case load of a hundred and forty three thousand cases about three thousand of them are cases in which apparent has a current order to provide support for their children and it is currently incarcerated as you wrote and can see in the impact statement that we filed though there are two major areas that we see this bill affecting one is adjusting a parents child's for obligation once they've been released from prison um. However in the other was the sharing of information between the department of corrections and community cractions and the offset child support enforcement in most of the cases in which a parent has is serving assert as sentence in prison their challenge were obligation is not going to change its possible that it can but in many or most situations there's no change in their obligation. Uhm i'll speak a little bit directly to you to white misdavis spent the most time on and that is the information sharing between the department of correction so community deprections and offset child support enforcement I think she reference at the only source of information is from vineling however and again it's referenced in the impact statement that the offset ocse and your cdc half for many years have it at an automated data match process that matches arcas load up against those and people who are currently incarcerated plus those who are on perol and probation and returns that information in an automated fashion without an individual having to get involved with it in that day updated every two weeks we find that to be the most efficient way as opposed to what we signed this bill was kind of contemplated that each individual probationer prole officer would be responsible for reaching out to a contact with nocse and providing that information and then updating it I said this has been a process that's been in place for several years it's updated daily it is only for individuals that under supervision of department of corrections or have community corrections we can't receive information from at other states correctional systems directly. The other aspect of this bill was on providing a specific basis for modification of childs for obligation when an individual is released from prison again as reference in our impact statement we believe that the current la already provides a basis for a modification when an individual is released this out a minimum to current law would not have it would not add anything to existing law and there is one section which we did have an objection to and and we visited with with representative in that is that the bill would have required information sharing from the officer child's or enforcement back to department of corrections to allow those pro officers to make a determination if there is a challenge for obligation and that is the is the provision that we believe violates federal regulation in that the use of the data in information that we obtain and receive about people receiving services is limited to purposes directly related to the administration on the child support program whereas the release two department of cractions would be beyond that and again we believe would be in violation a federal regulation and i'll be happy to take any questions. Rep save richmond you recognized thank you madame chair miss williams you said you believe it would violate federal regulation is that why do you believe why do you not simply know it's going to buy federal regulation it's not an issue that we have ever tested however the rags are fairly stripped stating that use of the data is only for purposes directly related to the administration of the program there are exceptions very specific limited exceptions of releasing that information to the agencies administrating that the snap foster here tannef and snap program medicaid programs and we did consult with our federal representatives and that concurred that this would be a violation of it alright. Follow up manager you recognize. Concerning this particular bill miss williams and this directed to you. Is this going to help at all will it make any difference is there any value in pursuing the study. To to see if we can simplify and make this and these are situation where. Mistakes would not happen difficult to say. It are opinion now again there's already a basis under current law time to modify an obligation if an individual has. Been in prison for a certain period of time and their support obligation could go up or depth down depending on what their income was before their period of prison and the release but you know if um saying individual was in prison for five years they petition for modification due to their incarceration and it was reduced their release from prison then in another self would be material change of facts that would be a basis for a modification so to into that extent now and again we already receive the information that is needed through an automated process with doc and dc. Follow up ma'am recognized. So. Are you saying that miss davis. Basically. Had difficulty for reasons that could have been she could have resolved with existing. Information and resources. And that. Everybody that involved with child support should be able to resolve all these similar type problems with existing resources and information. Without getting into the specifics regarding messages specific situation I don't believe this change would have made any difference in her case. Alright that miss miss davis so. At while at the chair recognize you later all right thank you. Website college you recognized thank you madame chair I guess you know i'm freelance similar kind of question that representative richmond has and it's really to miss williams. What what went wrong I mean or is this how it's supposed to happen for misday this because it doesn't sound right it doesn't sound like a good situation here is there anything that could be done to improve the system so that this kind of situation is avoided if it's not this is there any any any room for improvement at all. I again I mean potentially there could be a more frequent data match that's not a significant hurdle again it's you know every two weeks. Based on our experience that has been sufficient. Included in the information that is returned to us is the individuals probation parallel officer and there if if that officer changes that information as provided the contact information. Typically it's been a million years since i've been a field attorney but typically if I had an individual I was trying to serve and I knew they had a probationary pro officer I call the officer and II find out the information that I need to get this individual serve in mistake as the situation is a little bit different and would not have been changed by a s legislation. Okay. Represent guess where you recognized. Thank you madame chair my questions are missus williams. One in on page three of the proposed bill it. Seems to put a burden on problem officers to report certain information to the office account support enforcement which I understand based on your testimony. They cannot they can do that currently in that would not violate federal law is that correct. We can receive the information as the sharing of the disclosing of the information that would be the problem right so the problem is when you when you've mentioned that. This bill would result in a violation of federal law that is from officer chance port enforce up oc's perspective from having to share information that you're not authorized about federal law to share with department of correction stay up is that correct correct okay then one of the things that I notice on page three as it refers to. And existing child support order. And I think you can. Discussed this a little bit but not all existing child support orders go through the offset shout support enforcement. There are some orders that are established privately you mentioned some out of state orders there's only I would say probably the majority of child support orders are at least enforced by the office child support enforcement but there are wouldn't you agree that there are several cases out there that the office child support enforcement is not involved in either an establishing the order or collecting the order that's absolutely correct okay do you have any idea what the percentages of those are I don't it's. We had it's a it's been a little while we attempted to get that information from the administrative office of the courts but it's difficult to track down and see how many of those domestic relations cases still have a current and ongoing child's pretty obligation add i'd say conservatively tens of thousands. And wouldn't you agree that but however that the way the bill is written when it refers to a probation officer or perol officer's duty to report information with respect in existing child support order. It doesn't make any distinction between whether that's an order that's being enforced by the officer child's port enforcement it just says with any existing order they are required to report information to the office of child support forcement which may result in I would think tell me if i'm wrong you guys were seeing it receiving information about cases that you don't even handle that you have no. No stake in that is correct and that's why we believe the existing data match process is preferable because we can again match those against the cases that we have and we don't receive information for those other individuals that we don't have any business receiving. Okay thank you very much. Senator clark you're recognized here miss williams what information would be a problem sharing but when I say problem against the law. It's going to be basically any information including the existence of a child's for obligation for a purpose that's not. Related to foot to a child support purpose so if we need to obtain information regarding a prisoner and we make a contact to the pro officer we would identify we are why we need the information and that would be a disclosure but we are needing information from that problem officer. To. Conduct our business carry on and provide the services that are necessary in that case however if that prol officer were to contact one of our officers and request information because. They thought we knew where that individual was they needed to track down that individual they needed. Asset information for purposes completely unrelated to child support that disclosure for that purpose we believe would be am outside federal rates so i'm even more confused I didn't read that. The. I read it the bill but I didn't read that in the bill so. And i'm sorry that was just an excellent current in sample but what you're talking about if the role officer contacted you trying to hut down. A. Up relief. The better problem that is at what are. Correct but but there's nothing in the bill about them being able to do that is there no but if they are their dell would have required that we provide information to department of corrections to determine if there is a child's point obligation and what what is what is against the wall on that what what specifically i'd like to understand. There's nothing. That roll officers knowledge as to whether the existence of a challenge for obligation they're independent knowledge and in gaining of that information is not related to the their child's administration and the transport program. I'm trying to get your thinking in the federal governments thinking because you make me aware of this information i'm an employer. And so and i'm and I think there probably is a difference but i'm trying to understand what the difference. Is exactly so the the difference would be if the problem officer is working with an individual and there are doing some sort of assessment to determine what they'd individual financial obligations are so that they can work with them to comply with the terms of their parole. That start going to be a child support purpose whereas if are our office again makes that contact to the pro officer. You're just simply by saying this individual has a challenge for operation that's going to be disclosure. This. But the cause is for a child's purpose that is authorized where as the release for. Corrections and planning and determining. Compliance for corolla probation compliance that would not be a child support purpose and i'm not sure agree with bill at all i'm just trying to understand. So what i'm an employer. Somebody actually has a job with me. You have absolutely notified me because. My book keeper says they'll probably not be working in four weeks so. The so I have knowledge we have knowledge. And in this case the purpose seems to be. That the proloff sir is going to know. Whether the person is employed. Or not. Right. I would I think that the pearl observed this part of their job is absolutely know where the person's employed or not. Am I right. Are you referring to a pro officer contacting the i'm just a lawyer that the the pro- just the the in this that all of us here without having a products are actually tested by it would seem to be that one the things that they're going to know about a paralee is whether their employed or not I think that's one of the things they have to report. Yeah. And so and one of the things that you're trying to determine or somebody else independent of you trying to collect determined is if a person is imployed. III so I can see the purpose i'm trying to find out trying to figure out what it is that your office or the federal government. Where we would be violating the law and disclosing to the crowl officer that this person has a child support obligation so that you can tell us whether their employed or not. We're authorized to receive the information from department of corrections about their the employment. Were not authorized if we independently gain information as to that parallel is employment we're not authorized to release that information. To the pro officer and there's a code section or rules written the weaken examine and understand. At forty five cfr three or three point twenty one is a federal regulation regarding safe artinge disclosure of confidential information and that's going to be the section which it and prohibits the release of information for other than child support purpose. Just williams while a single clark is looking at something on the impact statement on the very last paragraph. Charles support already sees receives certain information from the department of corrections and community division. And within their that has all of who's currently under a child support order of which your office may be involved in that kind of thing this information when that person is sent to a probation to a perot officer is set with them as that are correct so it's not like the pearl officer doesn't know that there's a child support. A order because the department keeps that information if that's information that they could get correct. I mean I can't speak for the department of corrections but i'm sure that heart of their kind of part of the packet that goes down I mean I think that's probably a fair assumption that would be part of the packet does that part of the information that the inmate. It carries along with that in mate cracked I mean typically you would hope that the inmate is going to disclose that their financial obligations okay thank you. So if this was rewritten then. To say that the department of corrections had to be sure that the pro officer had the information that they have which they should already be doing. But should have that information and it's not you doing it. Then you all wouldn't have a problem with that. Typically records of childs for obligations are you when they're filed in the court it's a public record it would simply be a matter of again you hopefully this. In mate is discloses the information or it could be obtained through court connect if it's a public record. Then there's no law that or regulation that keeps me. From telling anybody. If it's a public record right. Received yes it was a public record it's a public record and whether our warning by to know or don't want anybody to know it's a public record it's out in the courts a court connect publicly accessible it's publicly accessable okay so so the federal government would have a problem with you disclosing information it was a public record. Yes. The. Maybe maybe sooner clark may I interject a question here maybe the the question is. Not so much the public record of what's in their order but the other documentation you may have as that that would be where the rub would be with the federal government that ignore is the gathering of the in the responsibility placed on the transport programs to maintain. Um secure information regarding the customers that we serv. The. If you can tell me miss williams obviously miss davis does it. Has gone through a frustrating situation. Are and I can tell that she's frustrated today. What is different about her situation. Are. Band what happens normally while was this such a problem from your perspective. Wise of such a problem for her and is it not a problem for anyone else. Again can referring back to that confidentiality issues at think that miss stavis may be able to speak to their specific facts of her case. Is it back to the rest of my question is this something to just specific. To her cases or is it something that happens to a lot of other p. To be permissible to ask mistakes to speak to the outwill aspects davis but i'm asking I would you're kind of our experience is something that's just specific to her or I don't know what to hard question answered or is it. The is it. Something that happens to lots of people. We are providing services to individuals. With nr state. And we're also dealing with um cases and which were not providing there's also going to be those cases where we're not providing services. Situations where there's other states orders and issues regarding. Is dealing with another state. Okay the. Mistakes if you could. I know you've been on to speak and so simply and succeed like as you're going to have to keep it simple for me. Is this something happens to a lot of people in your opinion and in europe not just in your opinion but from your experience and in dealing with this. In my experience yes i'm not the only person that that has happened to an. I guess what's frustrating to me not so much my own. Get off long sense. Given up on on mine by its just a super over a complication of something that I feel should be so simple the department corrections absolutely can share two child support correct they do. At what point I don't know why we have to share if they're sharing that to them and saying hey they have child support this is the pro day that's coming up and you can. In child support can know that that is a date coming up within so many days they know because corrections actually has the most updated information based upon their current employer as they are very well aware because they have to have an address and employer in order to be on pearl and to meet those requirements given to them during their probation so if they're sharing that information already child sport could already have in their hands and no this address to serve them if we can't serve them with the process server at a probation meeting but they could serve them there they don't have to share back and risk the I don't know all of the cloud of what can and cannot be shared they can have the address on file they have the employer on file and can serve the modification paperwork then because as you know when they're on probation that's a specific time where they do have to really follow the rules. A little better and it absolutely changes from the income of practically zero in prison to when they have an employer outside of prison absolutely changes hence the entire reason modification exists for that time and. The only pressure I have out had hoped to talk with them before but I didn't get a call to do so but when I spoke at links with various representative from charles for agency including my own. They and I don't know if there's a disconnect there they have told me over and over there's absolutely nothing except by link which they just go in on their own to find they are not shared anything every two weeks they are not showed anything a repeatedly every so days they they do not get that so I don't know if that's. An actual process is not being followed and hat is completely unaware at the level of dead everyone works with because they have told me repeatedly that is not I asked because I was told there is something in place that every two weeks that does not occur. So you know that's frustrating because i'm. That is not a truth that i'm familiar with and II think it can be a little simpler to do and not pass the book to every different. Agency and overcomplicated so that's my hope that just and process this change to make it a little simpler i'm not the only person not the only person and it happened into a lot of people are worlds apart. So you. It happens to some other people. Your answer I mean I would have to get back to you on exact amounts because that's one of things we have to look right and i'm not their experience frustration with with government in the court system that doesn't mean that should the answer is efficient. So that's why I was trying to to get an answer to that question thank you. Represent guess what are you recognized thank you madame chair so my first question. Is to miss davis. Ms davis was your case one that was signed to the office of child's port enforcement for collection. Should so. I'd I don't know i'd II know I had a child support order in place. Night went to them to have it in forced. So were you working with a private attorney to pursue your x for the child support or were you working with estate attorney through the office the challenge yes certain yes originally I had a private attorney and so that is when the chance of order was done and we had it modified when he was put into prison obviously based upon that income. Okay but then what he was released from prison. And you're trying to enforce it where you work and with a private attorney report you working with an attorney from the office of chance no sir I just went through the office transit apartment enforcement not a private and you know there are certain if to meet certain eligibility requirements in order to go through the office challengeboard force one of the things that was mentioned was tanner for you ever receiving any type of. A government benefits your forced I think to almost bring that case through the officer challenge for enforcement I wasn't receiving I just. New over that nothing was being done and I had to contact them to get them all rolling that you were eligible and they took up your case. Okay. So that I wanted to know that thank you for that so my next questions are williams. The. There are in having handled these cases before i've established got someone divorced to husband was in prison. We got the divorce done we set up child support that he would begin paying obviously can't pay anything well he's in prison he's not earning any income that's going to pay and child support. But that that challenge where obligation would crew at the minimum amount I believe while he was in prison then upon release from prison he would begin to pay on the arrearage that accrued while he was in prison then even begin to pay what is current obligation will be based on his income per is employment. In my understanding last time I talked to that client was that she was receiving child support but. I guess the point that I would ask in the that I would the but I would make and ask you to respond to yours there are common problems that happen to people certainly in the situation where someone's released from prison. In trying to collect a child support order these are not uncommon problems that people from all across the spectrum face in trying to enforce and collect child support. And i'm gonna give you some examples and you tell me if these are problems that you see getting someone served. Especially if they've been released from prison because they may not have a stable residents they may be homeless people they may not. They made out of established a true rest and yet and it's hard to keep track of the big moving between family members houses trying to establish something permit and so getting service on them becomes difficult. Then you have in terms of employment. Someone who's been released from prison often times struggles to find gainful employment and keep gainful employment because there are convicted felon people don't want to hire him if they if they do get hired you know they face a lot of issues of being able to keep up with the job demands there may be prejudices against them because they are a convicted fellow and and they have trouble. Keeping gainful employment. Then situations that i've seen people released from prison. Who have some type of disability. Or they have some pending disability claim i've experienced all of this. And it's hard to get child support on someone who claims that they are disabled or who may truly be disabled then if they ever do get the disability you get the child support that you get the disability payments to stand and look the child support the federal disability money goes directly to the parent. As kind of part of a separate payment but i've seen those those cases before. And again if you're trying to establish and enforce the order and collect it people starting jobs and quitting jobs. Frequently. Is a problem that you often encounter in trying to enforce that order. I'm not saying that that happened in this case. But. Can you expound upon the types of problems that you frequently encounter in all child support enforcement cases and that would be across the spectrum can you talk about that a little bit. Certainly individuals who who are homeless individuals who don't have stable employment individuals who are disabled. May have substance abuse may have like you mention that the challenge of finding employment with a criminal record all of those things go in to making a life in general harder and and certainly collecting support from that parent that their children need. Um obviously at a criminal record can compound all of those things what I do want to make clear is that. There's your ongoing data matt with the arkansas department of corrections and community cractions we receive the information regarding individuals who are currently incarcerated or under supervision of the arkansas department of corrections. Um. If if an individual is homeless or has subscanded on their parole or or probation then yes they're going to be more difficult to start for whatever reason i'm just baby up to contact them to find that you know work with them and find out what's going on in the child support case why aren't they making payments to provide for their children went yet typically when we do know what they're parole that his crow officer probation officer is they are extremely helpful because they want that person to succeed and not return back to prison they don't want to have do have them as violation of the pro and probation it turns to be actually helpful. Sooner hammer you're up for the last question they can have chair and to that point right there if they violate the expectation of the challenge support that they're supposed to be paying at that point they are in violation of the problems that correct. It's my understanding that it it's a routine conditioner a parole and probation that you comply with with your obligations including child support orders alright and so if they're found in violation of it once you find him and you got a find him first and go through everything you've been talking about. Then are they the the property just educate me can have them remitted back to the department criction for violation pro or they have options at that point I can't speak to what their options are so I do know that it's commonly a condition whether or not failing to pay a child's port obligation would be sufficient for revoke II can't say I wouldn't suspect that they would keep it in with the. Other issues that that that individual may be facing ok and the bottom line told us from if you had to tied up in a nice knee will tidy bow in kind of simplify what this is all about here today it's just to enhance the communication between two agencies so that when it comes to those that o child support services and are employed seek employment that is just gonna make the agencies talk together we're right now they they're not talking to each other to simplify makers make it more make it easier for for the child's port flows that can above high level explanation of this. Agencies are talking to each other we receive that information from drc and dcc. Okay. Okay thank you representing five are there any closing comments you'd like to make do you wish the committee to adopt this isp or would you like to just hold it in a balance it's up to you. And yes the word. The day I think we could tell other some issues here that need to be addressed i'm not sure if it can be addressed through the agency itself or if it needs legislation but I do appreciate your time today uh in. My appreciate thank you. Members err represent his clothes for the interim study whether the wishes of the committee. Seeing no motion at this time we'll just told it it'll still stay in this committee but will held on to it and we appreciate everyone being here today thank you mister for taking your time and bringing this issue to the committee we appreciate hearing from you we're sorry that you've had to go through all you've had to go through over the number of years and we certainly appreciate it it's hearing from citizens that bring these things to our attention ms williams is always thank you very much for your detailed testimony and understanding of what required a challenge support thank you. All right members we are now to other business we have no other businesses other than ride on your calendar december the fear at ten am is our next meeting in what they is if you will recall the house and senate judiciary committees or a task force. And our first task force meeting on it and we're going to be dealing with the district court the fins and fees their web and district court and the funding of the district court system so that we will start there by order that by the task force were supposed to meet every three minutes. Technically I guess her first meeting was supposed to be in october but we've been giving the minister believe in the county association have been working in the administrative office of courts have been working gathering information that will begin hearing on december the fifth so please put that in your calendar yes it's on two stage december the fifth ten o'clock are there any other businesses to come before the committee seeing no other business thank you so much for being here today with that we are adjourned.