House and Senate Judiciary Committee

February we're going to start maybe a. John house sent judiciary. We are. I first of all want to say a much I appreciate representative dobby and bringing up the subject and spartan twelve forty five because. I don't like myself most legislators had no idea that we had this kind of problems in funding our courts and intersected county and the responsibility they have in what they paid for funding the court because and i've been here long time but we did not know this so there's. Believe it or not and we pass laws there's always there's always some ambiguity in those laws and we need to straighten it out and certainly this. This steady maybe we can come together and and find some solutions some of these problems by the way we have a timeline set. For this this committee we will make once every three months in then more often on the call of the chairs after that we have to have AR. A study that ready and a balance in that ready for is the october. Or around october the first to present to the governor and the speaker of the house and the senate pro team. So without being said we will begin but I want to turn over to my coach here and say you thank you represent the dobby. The. Thank you a center stubborn field i'm looking forward to that I want to if I forget to say thank you say thank you particularly too the association accounts in the municipal league and the district court personnel from the supreme court have hard they've already worked to get us to this point so looking forward to this it is a server stubborn field said it's a hercaley and task. We may not be able to solve all the. Points that we need to solve but we're at least going to take a stab solving some of them it's good to see k palmer out here is nice to see uk from the district court with that thank you so much since they were filled for your kind words in your support of this issue alright we have a we have a couple of people that are going to be testifying today a market ian john want to come on up identify yourself to the records. This. And why you're taking the sake we also need a motion to approve the november the first eighty minutes we have motion from the flowers. We have a second second all those in favor of say i'll post. All right if you will identify yourself for the record they just will chris engine or council and legislate a director for the arkansas municipal league more quit more association arts or counties you're recognized well first of all I want to thank you I said or something filled representative dobby for spearheading act thirty eight this is an incredibly as you have you've already mentioned incredibly complex topic for our sister cities and counties and really for the state as well and I can tell you i've got just this is one of the binders that are helping me understand this complex system and it's been through a lot of conversations in research and conversations with mr white more here and folks that the aoc have done an amazing job helping us the f and a anyway that will listen is always willing to help try to understand and evaluate this system so act thirty eight is like it's already been mentioned as a study of district at the district court system which is misdemeanors only missing in our defendants only mark and I know very well how complex the system is and how the interplay between cities and counties and states are in the state when it comes to revenue sharing and funding how complexity gets and how almost in a way over lapping the system becomes on itself and I think II think it's a bad product of continual your laws being passed in they just go on top of each other and they sort of create this I would say conflict are the time it's sometimes there may be some conflict in the law but certainly ambiguity and so act thirty eight is designed to help understand that ambiguity first per foremost something else I want to make sure that we understand is we're sort of talking about this is the a o j find it sale funds twenty four different buckets of. Funding now that money is allocated every year but not all twenty four buckets are field with the actual money from the a allocation from the AG not because a o j fund isn't trying to but the money just isn't there and so the funding streams for those twenty four buckets it's it's a unique situation in trying to understand who gets what how much and who gets it in what order is another issue that we're trying to grab away on top of that they're thirty different where you come fees miscellaneous fees that are tacked on to criminal defendants as well and in the district court system. And that causes obvious confusion and I had a early case for the ten for marshall years ago and trying to understand the district court system is at twelve years ago I remember it took me about three weeks just to get to the point that I knew how to address their particular issues so between those twenty four buckets in the thirty miscellaneous fines and the uniqueness and all the systems district court systems themselves and I say systems I mean the city county district court each individual district court how they work together as unique across the state and you know mark and I have dealt with this for a long time and mark said something to me back for a weeks ago and said john as soon as you figure out how one system works you're going to figure out that the other one works exactly very very differently and he's right they're all very different so understanding this system is really important for us to understand what changes need to be made and really larger than all of this and really coming down to this larger point is the weight of the system on the criminal defendants and that's been a source that a lot of folks are are talking about we're trying to understand because when we talk about twenty four funding streams to talk about thirty miscellaneous fees now not all tickets get authority fees by the way and we we have to look at what is the weight this is placing on the shoulders of the criminal reference misdemeanor criminal defendants fortunately for us this is not without precedent and twenty five and twenty fifteen the the legislative audit or less than audit put forth a circuit court study to understand much of the same things that we're trying to understand what the district court system now the circuit court system is felonies their system is very very different in the district court system but the point of having the state like audit in particular look forward and try to understand the system and the funding in the sources of funding and the streams in all this sort of stuff again is not without president so we're hoping to lean on legislative audit and get their assistance but this is not solely legislative audits process even if they do are able to help us this is aren't us the cities and counties and we've already. We've called all seventy five county seats looking for one particular document and then as the the cost sharing agreement between the city and the county and if one exist and of one doesn't. Can we can we develop line and so where we're dedicated to this dedicated to understanding this I know mark whitmore in the ac is is as well so we're really excited about the opportunity to learn more about this system now move already done as continue as have these conversations like i've mentioned with the aoc with market with like I said whoever is willing to to listen and understand which of which there are many we're hoping to identify more stakeholders that can get as many states of the seat at the table as possible to understand how the system works and what changes we may want to make your may want to make i'm going forward what changes we would like to present to you are going forward but ultimately what we want to do is understand the system and identify any changes that we think would be best that would best serve cities counties state and primarily the criminal defendants themselves. Thank you. Okay so from a big picture standpoint like john said. Back in two thirteen to fifteen legislative bought it to the study the circuit court system and we are grateful that this thirty eight response by representative dollar being senator stepperfield because like john said this is get a lot of different layers out of lot of factual issues to it. I think the error what we're trying to correct everybody in the shrime probably needs to correct. Is the several states near the united states arkansas included had a ill faded game plan they were going to try to find those justice system off the basically the court cost of the criminal defendant and from our overview are steady no state is succeeded in that. The cost of the system far outweighs of the amount that she derived from court calls to find giving an idea. From a shares offers standpoint the jail in the sheriff's office long enforcement. They can so in every county over fifty percent of the general revenue or general revenue and can you give me it in just fines its the entire sales tags and it's also the three meals we get. So what what has happened and miss palmer have numbers farmer almost but half my laugh I started them blockler back in the eighties and circuit court machine to record. Or back then what what was going on is when you went to the candy courthouse everybody was a candy employee except forward the daily elected prosecutor of the twenty eight additional districts at the time and the circuit and changer judges everybody was a candy employee well back in the eighties the state figured out it this is a terrible system we don't have the building the fund the justice system counties or subdivisions of the state. And we barely had a sales tax and eighties it was pretty modest. And also the millions of three meals didn't come close to behind the fund the criminal justice system. And so what happened was over a period of time. The court reporter became mechanium but state employee but that came with the problem of how to fund it will rather then pay the court reporter at the time at a general revenue the state. Basically consume through their jan part of the court cost to do that same thing with case coordinators but the thing was called case coordinator child court assistance they became statement reason but again. The state decided not to use your revenue to state the side of the time to use part of the alj fine which is court costs i'll continue the story. Public defenders at the town average lawyer would have to defend the indigent either under contractor there was actually one time a federal grant those human beings are either under contractor. Canny pay public defenders in the nannies became state employees but again the state didn't pay a matter of channel revenue. Prastic attorneys. They became state employees. At the time the agreement was a transition that has a transition prosecutors. They were they basically held on there. Eighty twenty that the county's retaining the eighty percent but we still pay even to this day twenty five years later almost quarter century. From nineteen ninety nine two thousand to today we're still cannies are still paying five point four million for depthy prosecutor dollars and several carriers are a bit county washington candy plastic faulter even though prosecutors must be stayed employees they've had to hire their own depty prosecutors. Because those positions for upgrades at the state level so in the big scheme of thanks our state went down a path which was we're going to try to pay. The employees that transition from canada state not at a general revenue but adder state out of court cost in the deed stamps actually so then we got a district court which is a part of the focus of the study is that district judges back and amendment eighty two thousand people voted to make a state judiciary district court level. And. With fire stip as the low hanging from you got a unique county you go to the bigger categories credit and these folks would become state employees state officials will then over a period of time the state started picking up half of the salary the counties and cities still pay to this day. Over two decades later half of the salaries are fifty eight thousand is a common number for the district judge of salaries. To. This transition is the the main question in the study is let's figure out where all the revenues are. And track them and try to figure out where the equities are inequities are well what happened john delayed it to the especially two thirteen to two fifteen legal it did a study the secret court system and we gladly would appreciate like all it being involved in updated that study the conclusion of the study was is that. Counties percent division state are digging a forty six million dollar hole. The demand of revenues that the carriers receive or is forty six million dollars to the negative to what they spend at the circuit court level and this dead include by the way that all enforcement of the jail it's just the court system which includes. The officers are the departy prosecutor not getting the source the officers of the public defender the candy law that bury all the different witness protection programs just are an art so. What i'm hopeful for is there's a lot of trees here. And I hope that the committee in the members of this committee don't get lost in to the force because all the trees. But I think some of the main coins to be made is. There is an estate in that states that funds the justice system off defendants court cost. Manufacturers set an abysmal way to do it that back doing that seven eight years ago. But cares the state was funding troublecord assistance. Out of the japan. It got to where they couldn't pay in the paperwork. Because court costs were coming in at the collection rate used to be collected at thirty percent I mean sixty percent right so there is a period of time. In which the state of arkansas could not pay the trackhold assistance for the circuit court jettison. So what did the state day. The state changed the law to wear rather than when somebody comes in to pay their. There are obligation. Of restitution the state law was do were you paid. The court costs first. Cause the state header interest to make it sure the trouble cord assistance were paid over and above what restition was to the victim we all changed at lol just last year back to a restitution paramount. But you know I want to make blow red light flashing moment here. Can like man eleven. Your collection writer that j phone is a thirty percent not sixty percent a n even though you prioritise pay in. Court reporters and coordinators last john mentioned you got twenty four programs. That are on the auj phone. That on their best day don't receive a thirty percent funding. Now. And he also mentioned they started miscellaneous fees. So. Just the ball down the court cost of being spread all over the place. In the states general avenue. Is not necessarily being directed toward state officials like the district dadges or the prosecutors. Thanks for that nature so I think what's going to happen is when you go through all the study and we're very well into span work like the display. Is that when you get the study much like what you had a circuit court level at the district court level you're going to come to the conclusion that the court costs can't pass me firm. All of these obligations. To the level that they have and you're going maybe make some decisions it's also decision about what programs are were the there may be all worthy or whether it continue programs are funded about thirty percent level if you have a program that's on the AJ fine with the other twenty four programs. And they used to get sixty percent again thirty percent. I don't know how the label that is. Because you're unlike general revenue there's not the stability of the sales tax. Whether or not somebody pays a fan in certain order and collection is a pretty hard unproductible situation and so we're here to see us I want to point out this to help illustrate this. Few years ago the state indicated that they were they said basically when somebody serves as a juror they're entitled to juror pay. Well the county pays them and so the alj fan are indicated that they were going to reimburse the countries for the juror pay and so the circuit clarks they would go and found the corn port you have a budget and it would say we anticipate talking about your pay and we're gonna tie the jurors you don't come hell or how water we go pay. Well now because the l j for finding so in firm. They're paying thirty sense on the dollar. So you've got concords. Appropriate money on the idea that they're to be reimbursed and they're only getting reimbursed thirty percent. Other during pay instead of a hundred percent so that is indicative of how they are j fine. It there so many different obligations with the twenty four things plus their pain part of the court reporters and part of them case coordinators that that's a hard way to run a railroad we have four different county officials that are signed up to help our internal steady groups we've got bringed the shields who's a bit in candy conservative clark when he got john mcgambry to share from **** candy rusty mcmellan press to the county judge association and jennifer jones is the better bill district court clark. And so as we proceed to the study our help roll off her slaves and get to the bottom of the factual data determinations and we're here to help real know a little bit maybe about the history of the situation bad I think just to be can I help jump to the hidden but the movie you should come to the determination that. Like in the other state you cannot phone the justice estimate more cost just not possible no state succeeded and do what they have and it's up to this body to decide how to find these different thanks but I don't want you to miss the other facing them the last steady at the circuit court level did draw their conclusion that the fort counties are suffering from a forty six million dollar deficit at the circuit court level and I want to make an observation quickly about district court when you look at the shares of its budgets and we don't write at me tickets. If you look at the shares of its budgets in any county. Since they concerned between the jail and the sheriff's office low enforcement over fifty percent of general revenue which includes like i've mentioned before the sales text in the three mills general. It's kind of a meet the think. That the court system is a net money maker it definitely drops revenue district courts drop more revenue the circuit court but. We got a quick look and add a conscious to his money make or a net money make they're just now they do drive revenue. Where it's and stable unpredictable revenue based on the collection rate of court cost. And it's not served as well in funding in certain possessions that are payroll programs they've taken a big head as well so the legislature has a it's a big task to deal with this but we're grateful that you're digging into it. I just got one question how did the out of the states are statutory get out from under their responsibility. Of shouldering these cost. Under came from before. The. Yeah. What happened on the district you referred to the prosecute attorneys. The deputy prosecutors back a nineteen ninety nine the state brought them in a state employees and at the time back of nineteen ninety five there is a well let me say this why. Eighty percent of the obligation the state started taking on all the additional depthy prosecutors twenty percent. Other funding. And then the growth. And so they can ease to this day and i've got the chart linked several of you have it they deduct far from four million dollars. From our candy general turn back to pay depth to prosecutors. So respect clear at the time since cannies were sheltering not missed off its expense for prosecutors we're children apersod health insurance and the entire salary for every deputy prosper in the state as of native ninety eight. That we were grateful that the state to call that responsibility. But it was to be a transition. In that transition here we are almost quarter century later. And the state is not they still take out five point four million from our turnback to wear frightly cammy and logically as resident of their payment portion of the salaries uh to bash account for depthy prosecutors. Point v if you go to any county. Whatever candidate is they looked at the budgets candidates have four. All these different destinies related expenses it's far exceeded what the revenues are. I sent search clark. The one sorry did you if you get your sorry about that push your button yesterday. So to flowers you're ready thank you mr chair I have a few comments and I guess it you can respond but initially. Attorney workers and is said that and I didn't refresh but reading the legislation that we're dealing with that calls for this steady. But you mentioned that the funding streamed. From. The disrecord. You characterize. The role of the court is dealing only with misdemeanors. I'm not sure if the studious directly focused on that pursuit to the beyond the act that was passed but. You also have small claims. You also have some prior. Two formal felony indictments. The disrecord has. Defendant criminal defendants appearing on felony charters are. It's that they've been arrested on it related hearings yes. And so and then. And didn't hear. Any mention of going and I suppose that would be something that would be reported in your steady as well. But. Also we talk about the. Courts in the fees and finds bn court the net money makers. We have some case law. That forbids. Some. Revenue generating. From just find and fees on criminal defendants. And I didn't hear any mention of that in terms of. The balance of. Of these sources that funding. And I think we need to respect that. Because. You know it's a system and maybe it's become so cumberluded that we need extra person nail and all this and that not no we do. The. But at the same time it's not supposed to be about making money to pay for the salaries the facilities and everything else that goes along with the district court. I'd just like for you to speak in then you mention who are the people or where they are from there are helping with this study. I didn't necessarily hear anybody talking about identifying anybody from south arkansas the courts in south arkansas out these dark I don't think I heard any from southwest you can correct me if i'm wrong but. You know it when you start having people just from a certain area of the state. Which is not representative of all the state. I think I have an issue with that. Because there's a practice in attorney in south arkansas it's quite different and I think it would be wise they have someone in south arkansas. To be a part of the conversation and to help to show how this data actually works. In those courts down there and then the last thing is and thank you mr chair. You. No turn it with more said mint raised about sharp music minimum you have it. I was in a meeting yesterday I didn't know what they were talking about because many people had something that I didn't have as a member of the committee. From email I don't have this charge you talk about either. And mission chair I would just ask that. Gone forward. If there are some documentation information related to the conversation that we're here to speak about our listening about. I'd like to have it. I'll be glad to provide that for the chairs okay and thank you mister chair our black search sent to clark. Thank you mister. The. John more. Former court home court member here. The. What a heard was and I play this back but I think we'll hear the same thing. Is when the studies done with the state needs to pay more money and take more burden off local government for the studies ever. Done that that's going to be the conclusion. Am I wrong. The. I think that the state you should rave a conclusion like that that you're do those local government not have a place. Paying for these services that we definitely do unfortunately we're paying at a forty six million dollars deficit well. It depends on what part of it you're supposed to be paying you saying a deficit but you sign. Compared to what. I've just referred to the lack of they got it steady. My observation what i'm trying to convey is that i'm not aware of a stay they can find its just a system of court cost in the state and the countries and cities the candidates are subdivision of the state but and when it comes down to a try and the phone. But the determination was in the eighties nannies was that it was not possible to phone the justice system at the local level and the state assumed some of that responsibility but unfortunately. There was a debacle back case coordinator was trying to find those to court cost in santander court reporters but the fact that it can't be founded one hundred percent doesn't mean that it shouldn't be funded partially. I have been there we definitely found down. Tend to billion to dollars or maybe hundreds of millions think that's what the state also since the eighties we've authorized. As cities and counties to click sales tax. Which is a great I know i've been in a former correct member a great enhancement to revenue can bring it a whole lot more money than the four words at month what at money supposed to be spinner they're that's generally like a saying well you I thought you come back state general revenue but now I was talking about their county local okay so what was that money supposed to be spinning well as you know a corporate spend it on. Every manner of canny applications understand allowing cities and counties to an act of sales tax has allowed cities and counties to pay for. Has it not true but it was well recognized in the eighties and the nannies that the sales tax and three meals. Didn't come close to fund in the justice system. That's why the state to go there to prosecutors public defenders case coordinators. Courtboards because that funding was not at. But that means it comes in funds a lot of something absolutely it just didn't suggest because it normally when I talked to the lobbyists they present my side and you've done a good job representing your constitutional insight which I understand normally I would come back in say now tell me the other side story and sixty seconds and those lobbyists who can do that I turn to listen to our recognized I think I said it. At the time deftly prosecutors budget was about eight million dollars and now it's over twenty five million and so the status assume my fact last year go added forty five different prosecutors during covered so i'm not say in the state had an undertaken lot i'm just saying that I believe when I think it's gonna be true when you get the conclusion of the study about circuit court that it's going to continue to show that there's. In terms of expenditure that the candidates expand a lot of money the courthouse selectors d. Uh the employees the staff are the failure of prosecutor the jail law enforcement and when you look at all those expenditures. But in all we're asking is when the state assumes we're definite. We don't understand why the county back frankly can be whoever garment can be would be paying part of the depthy prosecutors. Uh or bitten can he had a great. And that's where we're coming from and I think that's what the study I not recognize some equities in the system II think most of us do for familiar with it a rule versus urban. I think some of the poorer rule counties they should we should study should find some inequities between between their funding and urban. Counties that one may be really hurting and the other may not be trained on it and also the things that ruling bugs may have will be to but planning things on court cost etc is we have what amounts to a debtor's prison if your poor and get fined a lot of times you're going to be paying the you will be paying fine from now because the penalties keep. The key pay not I mean I added the kind of penalties that are added in the court system. As a business man i'd be put in jail within the best way I could say it is you get a financial matter court cost and how much is collect it goes up and down it's not predictable not as predictable say sales tax. And that one time. The word court cost you would think would mean it's fun in the corps but the ball to the court cost goes to the state. And then it was fun in about twenty four programs at sixty percent now the twenty four program to get funded thirty percent and so as a legislative body. Uh the argue to the sad what course costs do for your doubtful job if I may II don't II certainly don't want the impression to me that we're reducing this to the statements to pay more money to assist on it that may be a conclusion that we determine perhaps but it's it's a larger issue than that and back to your point in the center flowers point to me what what's happening in south arkansas what what's happening in south arkansas compared to northwest arkansas central occurrence and what remedy can we come to a based on the data that we're going to derive from this study what was the impact on the deters prison as you as you describe which i've heard it described like that a hundred different times I mean II can't argue with you on that and that's so I think while we do we may come to that conclusion that mart mentioned there's a there's a ton of other conclusions that make a company that and then on top of their even if we do come to that conclusion the next the next step is what do we do once we had that conclusion or the up is everybody sharing this burden equally does it need to be equal does somebody need to share a bigger part of the burden and and that's the point of the studies to try to understand all of it and certainly now that we're just here on the very friend into this we're not we're not ready to make any conclusions because we don't know but I think your points well taken and they're great points and we just don't know right now and we hope to find out. Just by concern because again former core court member it would be really easy for me to sort. With your. Oh but at the same time there's things i'd like the great amount of sales tax that cities and counties can bring in and some do that increased a long with increased cost and we asked we can't sit here and and bring everything back. To the state light level besides the fact that you've got to have don't you wouldn't you agree you've got to have if we're going to help control what's going on in control cost you got you have to share some of the the burden there's no doubt it's got to be partly on you and I think understanding that is really what we're trying to get out where we're not there yet we don't know that's where we're relying on your help us and we're going to help you all as much as we can just I just want is one legislature this will place my fear that we we we got everybody coming from one side whether they're from south arkansas from central arkansas or north arkansas coming from the county side sure which I can understand but there's there's more to it than that and I don't want to buy study when we finish okay and I can for it for our sake and I was I think I speak for more to you know we are obviously representing cities and counters but we're we're here we're part of the state so we want to do it's best for our of us relative like auto what i'm think i'm driving add is that when they got it conducts the study. There is a lot of move in parks here there's all the miscellaneous face court cost finds always different revenues general revenue of the counties and cities and the state. And the system the way it's created now has funding obstacles funding issues i'll make an observation about drug court. Twenty one years ago when I started ac there were twenty eight judicial districts and most counties did not have a drug court. As we said her today the majority of the judicial data to have the majority counties have but if I lived in a cat here. Mechanism that don't have records which I think is north of twenty. Then the defendant that lives in the country that then have a drug court. Versus the city the carriers that name. They were actually getting a different system justice. So there's a lot of stuff I don't purport adjust was trying to help you see counter big picture in the history or is best accurate I would discussion my fellow legislators that want to study comes out and we get into a legislative session. But in a month. Ask you if you think i'm wrong. That was his study comes out by snonbist whatever it says that we will be the look by phone calls. My city and county for ever seen in county official we recognize pressure. To support it whether we think it makes sense or not do you disagree with that. And if so what i'll call you on it when we when we get to those committee means. No answer. Yes. I act because the old direct does phone calls well I don't know i'm not sure what's going to happen with this and that is really kind of what's intriguing about this whole process is that this the first time and I think forever that we've tried to take a real shot at understanding this system so honestly don't know II wouldn't be willing to put my. I heard on the chopping but sort of speakers I don't know but but to your point yeah I mean obviously if we find that there's funding inadequacies in our in then it's a phone calls but again I don't know I know whispered ended well i'll say they are sweep had the bill drafted last session about empty prosecutors. Cause we've long recognized that it shouldn't take quarter century for the state to pay depthy prosecutors to the counties I mean clasky can he doesn't get in turn back. Because it's all consumed by the deduction of the four five point four million and and all the other careers so just be clear we had the bill drafted a reps in the language was our sponsor and I think you'll got other issues perhaps about education that muddy the water about funding staff such as prosecutors so we think that's an inequity and I think it's bolstered by the fact. The we do spend more on justice well we spend a lot of chesters out there we don't know why we'd pay for state employees that mark out taken as a yes thank both of you thank both of you for the work you do chairman thank you for the light to thanks to him to clark as representative delvi thank you mister chair II think I have about three questions and i'll just throw him out in your can kind of discuss them I think singer clark has made a good point I think we've have to look at all of it and I think that that's what this is going to do but you've mentioned just kind of for education purposes you've talked about the twenty four groups that are at one point being funded at sixty percent now down to thirty percent could you and this is one question the young take compare if you want out of those twenty four how many of them are court related because the statute salars as I recall that. To be funded they're supposed to be court related and so we may have some things in there that aren't court related that are possibly pet projects that people have gotten in over the years that would be one thing i'd like for you to kind of address fairly quickly another thing would be just if you could kind of let the committee know the affects that this installment fee that we charge people just to give people an example of what we're doing to our defendants the installment fee for if you're having to time pay out your. You're fine or fee and then the other thing you mentioned cost sharing and maybe you could explain to a little bit better what you mean by costs sharing between counties and cities and those agreements cause I know we're having a hard time finding out are there even written agreements and within their question I think maybe something that the committee might want to look out and possibly you'll take a stab out are there some of these smaller district courts in some really small areas that maybe they need to consolidate with the county district court to help in cost costs containment as soon as clark is mentioned because for those of you who have made not have been in district courts likely every district courts got a staff they've gotten a court clerk they've got somebody that's collecting sometimes it's the court that's collecting sometimes it's the sure that's collecting in those entities if you've set on audit you know what that happens can cause some issues so those are kind of some broad areas and I don't necessarily want to take a lot of time but if you do kind of just generally speak to it cause I think those are some things that we need to get our. Hands on too thank you yeah i'll need offer the car should agreements account into center clarks point two is that that's where this all started from our perspective is understanding the caution agreements between the cities in the count is and a law that's associated with those cashing agreements to the extent that there is law the law is very complicated in this level and i've i've litigated this case before two trying to understand how winner caution agreement is required who operates a district court is another question and in what the terminology and a code is somewhat. Miss it may not misapply but they use different the co use as different words for the same things relates somewhat argue some argue there are two distinct meanings and when you get down to caution it's really complex and trying to understand who bears what bird between the city and the county and so the caution agreements for us is for me at least is paramount to understand because I do believe a written agreement between the city and a county and towns for that matter that are you know using district courts is very important because that puts everybody in to know exactly what's happening in their court system but what we found out already is. That when you call off seventy five county cease and ask them for a caution some of them have them some of them are don't have them and say what we just been doing this for thirty five years this is how we do it and then some say oh I didn't know that we needed any sort of agreement so trying to understand the cautioning agreements is really a big point for from me in particular and in the league and I think the counties would agree to to understand that caution system is really fundamental to understand in the district court system as a whole. Good i'm talking a little bit about them the automation fan in acremental payment used to be that offended appeared in court they had that obligation to pay their fan in a land sound. And what happened was the courts had a desire to state level local level to be automated and so the convenient instead of having to pay all at one time of the get on a a time and stomach payment that a judge kid award a judge could determine somebody can pave and installment payments well that had a cost of it the state of AJ phone the aoc had to create a system at the state level and as well the country's death so there is a starmat fee five dollars. Uh the state administration of justice fan kids and then there's a at the circuit court level five dollars local same thing with district court five dollars at the state level five dollars local and part of that was having a manager course installment payers like being a baken away or mortgage company the since that you have to deal with all it stood a saying somebody paid or not pay the other aspect of it is has two aspects when it is. The collection rates not near what it used to be. In terms of the actual amount of fine to and court cross restation are collected because people pay it over long period at one time the other impact is yes the defendant often times rax up these installment fees. During mars in which they're not making any payment now you all have adopted legislation that allows a person in the infarmative to come and say hey I lost my job i'd like the collector to give a break or even the judge to a bake my collection because I can't pay much like child's port. And so you have reacted to that to some extent but it is pretty obvious that in the in analysis quite a bit of the obligation can end up being in installment fee that is a negative effect because this racks are on somebody might not have the building back. Just just to speak they're just really quickly in it's it's an anecdote because I heard this from a city and I forgot the name of the city as a city clerk that mentioned this to the installment plan or something that they had a criminal reference and mister means who apparently when went to the penitentiary for some felony charges and he had been on that installment fee and then a summer fee doesn't quite and so while he was in prison that ten dollars kept racking up every month in mind after month after months when he got out he had this a larger largest tomorrow because that doesn't that does it start in the point i'm making about it being an ending though it is a lot of what we deal with in this round is annigated for your stories and so this study was hot hopefully going to paul these stores together to try to get some consistent theme of what's happening across the state i'll mention the twenty four third of the twenty four buckets real quick and i'm certainly not suggesting that they're not criminal just as related or judge judge related just as related but I will list some of them at random here drug abused prevention and treatment find the justice building fine at the truck fund for chargeward administrators division of the state police for their retirement find how we safety special find public legal aid find and and there's twitters obviously you know sixteen or so more so it's it's a wide variety went out why variety I mean they're they're all have well this is not decided to yourself with the army but those are very buckets then when you get to the mess to me the miscellaneous fee. You got the dean a detection find and sex and child offender registration find legal track exceeding speed limit find overweight over a linked truck find drug crown special assessment fine so it I mean it's all sort of you know similar issues I guess but. That's kind of a. The sampling of what what we have in this twenty four and thirty five and i'll speak to the the number of district courts back when i'm him and eighty payouts in two thousand I had approximately given hundred twenty five district time and sixty or so but I called city courts. Well at the end of next year after the election and then two twenty five you'll have seventy district courts state mr courts they're the state's courts now it's pretty playing that the way those district court or established in terms of where they hold core. That's based at you. So you've got capacity I think all timer from their places that used home cord that don't hold court or so if you all determine the efficiency that your state district courts have an inefficiency in two minute locations or what have you pretend b uh you're in your perfectly but she did go yesterday make the observation but hundred twenty five district court sixty or so city courts down to now you have seventy state. District court judges some haven't even multiple carries now where they have clerk's officers. Is credible statue which I think chairman dollar chairman doublefield provide that I believe are reverted along representative lighting your next. Thank you mister chairman I appreciate you let me ask question about committee but I want to just give a different perspective I was a mayor and we had a district court in I think i'm the only mayor in here except for representative mulligan so don't correct me if i'm wrong done but no II was a mayor in ilkins which we had a district court there and it was a small it was considered a rule down but. The. John I think you made the best statements so for we started talking about deputy prosecutors in my county share have just talked to me about that friday the same thing that you all are talking about that the county has to find those even though their state employees. That's a real problem but I think we have to be careful in this thirty to not focus on one issue here because limitarian. The the district court that we had was funded through the city a lot of it some of it went through the county some of it went through the state and these twenty four entities i'm telling you I have never seen anything more complicated than balancing that budget and that fun had to be cleared at the end of the month. So you know it's it's it's a mess course is a small town mayor I really can do a lot about that but and i'm going back fifteen years ago but. Something needs to be diane to make this more efficient I think we're we're not using the money efficiently that work that we're getting into the court because it we we had a court clerk in an assistant court clerk and they spent half their time trying to figure out who got what and then they had to go back and rebalance it because you have to balance it to every penny and this is just one court and then you you you rolling the different kelly courts and as you said the agreements because I would go to our clerk and I would ask her where we give and fish and gain point four percent of this and tuesday well we've done it that way for thirty five years to your point and we didn't have written agreements so anyway my comment he is I just want to give a different perspective here but it is a system that definitely needs to be redone. And rebalanced. And made much more efficiently so thank you mister chairman. Search clark. Mrperiod chair do have some questions but i. We'll defer to your judgement but I think a couple people who haven't asked questions have had their lots on longer than me. The. Though I see representative gas away right then to gas well sorry but that. Thank you mister cheris no problem. I do have a few questions number one I guess I begin by saying thank you for. A sponsor in the study you were being involved with the study and chairman all the insurance double field for. Sponsored the bill to create this study this is very important these are it's very confusing in terms of the funding streams as you've talked about. And it it'll be important for us in order to make decisions to know where the money comes from where it's supposed to go whose responsible for what what all these fines and fees that are special finds and fees they're attacked on for specific purposes. Understanding all that we are important but ultimately that's to aid us in making a decision. And so I do get a more of offer a different perspective in a long lines I think of what senator clark. Said earlier I think it's a policy decision for us as a legislature to decide how much of this responsibility ultimately should be the states. And how much of this responsibility should be the cities and counties. And it sounds like to me ultimate where this is going is I think is what senator clark is concerned about is that you guys are going to come back at the end of this study and ask the state to just take responsibility for basically everything. And the state has been slowly doing that over several years now paper department prosecutor salaries we pay for the district judge salaries as you've discussed. All those positions used to be part time now their full time and they pay really well. Um. But the state is taken on more and more responsibility. And so as part of the study what I think is a fair question and that I think needs to be addressed is. Me cities and counties are their own political subdivisions. And they have to have some skin in the game in terms of justice. And I don't think that it's just kind of my opinion for now it can certainly be changed but I think that they have to have some skin in the game in terms of paying for the criminal justice system in their own jurisdictions. Now how much that should be I don't know but as you study that I think one of the questions to answer. And to help us is how much scanned in the game should this county share how much skin in the game should the cities have. And how much should you know should the state's responsibility. Or share of that truly be so as you do that study. I'd like you to think about that one of the things that i've heard. And so if you can address that one in a minute i'd just like to hear your perspective on there one of the things that i've heard you say is that certain counties are paying for deputy prosecutors. But the state pays and I think you would agree the state pays for probably ninety five percent of the salaries of all difficult prosecutors in the state would you agree with that. Well I know that the budget of the prosecutor core dinners about twenty five me and I believe. But I want to make an observation that counties are still paying for point four million of the depthy prosecutors there are ten depthy prosecutors between the county has six washington two fat reward and clasky that searched national around the candidates created that to stay two sarah state positions though the candidate is created and cause the state. Right and so I guess my point would be it's a very small number of positions that you're talking about there and most of those are in counties one that can afford to pay you and kind of opted on their own. To add additional deputy prosecutor positions that they were willing to pay for is that a fair assessment of wide some of these counties while they're still a very small portion of counties paying for a depty proscutor positions I think they created them because they had to because the state wouldn't create him come out bin in washington carries the group fast. Of blouded an ad too much to barb it meant budget for period of time now doing coverage of added forty five positions. Of empty prosperity which is needed to go back to what you're saying I think what uh reps in the first side is that the steady I think the point can be made is the steady start talking about many the court cost fees and fans assess the court system have little nothing due to operation individual court or the court system and it's entirely keeping man the bulk of the court cost don't end up going to operate the courts that lots of it goes to the state. And then the state in some instances pat funds is twenty four and in the thirty twenty four day or j five they find state employees salaries the court reporter the cash coordinator and that system of his per pressure I think on them the findings to produce court costs which is not what anybody wanted and it wouldn't be remiminated moment ninety four had the opposite in tie it was to intend to have a judiciary that's paid by the state of the constitutional officers fine both circuit court court of people supreme court and district court but what the reality is is that cities and counties are backfilled on that. With court cut with them local revenues so most folks would think if you keep the local revenues to help fund the local courts that would be more land of what. People would foresee and that the state employees. If they the idea of them your own off court costs has not been successful. Thank you mister chair. And in agree with that you know i've always argued that there has been this perverse incentive. To impose fines and fees or at least there are certainly the appearance of that if you're a criminal defendant standing in court you say of course you're going to find me this much judge of course you impose this big fan and fee on me because that's what paying for your salary. And it you know at least if it's not in fact at least there is an appearance that there's this incentive to impose large fines and fees and to work diligently to collect those because that's what's paying that if that's what's paying the judge of salary this will be paying the court clerk salary and everyone else. Then it just doesn't look good so I mean I totally agree with that but. Let me say this as far as your study I would be interested. Because I think we really have to think about this to know. Are are we. Charging too many people. Will felonies that ultimately play down to misdemeanors that is over taxing the the circuit court system that may not be part of this study I understand because this is district courts primarily but it may be that more cases should be processed the district court as opposed to. Yeah. Are we are we arresting too many people and running too many people through the court system at that may be up beyond the scope of your study but I think that you know at some point we need answer that do we have to many deputy prosecutors and too many public defenders. I know that there's there's an argument that we don't have enough but you know when you talk about how things used to be done historically in terms of public defenders. The the judge is used to just appoint members of the bar who received who just happened to be in the court room that data represent indigent defendants. And i'm not sure that. You know we shouldn't look at in terms of funding the justice system that we. Pay lot in a private lawyers who are typically engaged in the criminal practice. On an hourly basis up to a certain amount to represent criminal defense as opposed to just continuing to expand this public defender system not saying we should but I think as we look at all these issues I know this is district court primarily we have public defenders and district court too handle a lot of cases. The. You know just what are our other options here because. No just continually spending more money there's no limit to the amount of money I think that you could spend. Not only as if that's what you wanted to do so. You know again at I would be interested from a broader policy standpoint as you do this study. Uhm. What should be the responsibility cities where should be the responsibility the counties. Are there better ways to do to handle paying public defenders and prosecutors. I think those are the bigger questions that we ultimately have to answer in addition to all the specifics of how these things refunded so i've said a lot but if you do you have any comments with regard any of the issues that i'd like to hear yeah I have a hundred percent agree I mean I we didn't come here today to expect you to you know list a son your shoulders as they were conferred special session and we're going to find it all we really didn't we we we were our goal is to try to understand sort of how each of our roles in it and what i've said several times as we're doing the study is I can with you is the state taking more of this revenue and assistance they're not funding a commiserate part of like is it is it a fair equity of disbursement of interest and funding and I don't know the answer to that I think by understanding the assistant that we get to that fundamental question because that is ultimately the fundamental question is the state getting more out of it and they're putting in are we getting more out of it that we're putting in a we're getting less out of it there they were putting in what is our responsibility how much responsibilities should we have based on the minimum eighty and then ninety four and all this sort of stuff and you know when you throw those questions out there you start generating on one question you get caught up in that tree and you lose the force or hoping to to answer all those questions because you're one hundred percent right that's exactly what the study is designed to do so I don't want the impression again to be to reduce it down to we're going to want more money we're going to want to studied as a see if everybody's sharing this bird equally and I might just reemphasize and how much of this burden is being shouldered by criminal defendants and how much of it should be shouldered by criminal defendants and I think all of this goes into into the next as we're studying this issue. I just want to ask you. You know I can't remember when washed in bitten counties were small countries I mean there was nobody living there and now there. Shouldn't I be shouldering more of the burden of these costs based on the populations. It's maybe the point where market I don't saturday but yeah I mean I think it's another part of this is to understand that. Well I guess what i'm I think i'm draving at is that. The amount that are cannot all over the state spend at the circuit court level due to the study that they called it didn't take fourteen to fifty and then what we take will find that the district court level is substantial management and the part that be welders are concorded in our candy officials is that we're paying for state officials salaries. And I think you're gonna find that we're not. Nedding money off the district court of the secret court and so or have a date that the fact that bent the candy had to create six of their own depty prosecutors and. Washington can do theirs because the state wouldn't the call courts didn't do it out of anything other than assessing. And because the state declared battery mapping and I had the they were going to pay depthy prosecutors. It would seem to me or seem to mouse folks to why would they be paying for state officials. For a depthy prosecution possession tend to fi. The. Okay. Thank you misses chair couple of things um. That I understand okay so this seems like it's going to be quite a bit. Of. Different issues and facets of this whole scenario of the district court. Terms of funding. Because you have all these different parts you have the judiciary. In the amendment eighty and their responsibilities over a judicial system that we ignored that. An amendment eighty. When I last read it and I think it's the same it it has recommendations in there. And it has a design. That we have used to build up and create these different state district courts. And then you got state last eight two that says creates a decorate board district court realignment board which I must say I used to be on. Senator cheer person double fee until. You didn't have me on there but whatever as well i'm saying. When you when you start looking at all these different components. That by law have some implication in and viewers dictionary over recommendations. Now I think the. The court the judiciaries responsibility that's constitutional. Decrease that something week through together as a legislature obviously. But then when you look at their responsibilities in what they do. You got a wonder where i'll how they go figure into this conversation that you all are studying. And that's concerning to me. Because that's a board. Of select. Judges from different courts like I see it. I don't see enough representation from areas of the state. That have to support these rural state district courts. And then. About accountability in collections. As when I was on legislative audit not on that anymore either thank you chair everybody else in the senate but. You know there were so many times. When we were faith we're findings from court collecting millions of dollars. The. That was not account it for. We did the money go and who was collecting it. Was it a share of the department. Was it. That installment the little third the third party window that was kind direct it. Was it the clerk. Was it a jerk. There was no I mean also so many times i'm thinking about what in the world how can you not notice. Millions of dollars missing. Enter this day haven't really heard much about that it was found. Or that even a prosecution was brought. That concerns me. And so it's important then I meant to ask you before when I pointed out that I think we need representation in your discussion. From all parts of the state different parts of the state. Have you already children these people and these. Particular parts of the state from different parts of the state to be a part of this or can you open it up and include some people. Judges. From areas of the state that don't get a voice heaven had a voice. You know. If we can look at thanks. You can look at spreadsheets. Like I did on that decorate a board. This. It made recommendations. Totally support it. But what we saw in the data. But yet. Unknown and you got some judges and I have to say and i'm a lawyer I don't appear in too many courts anymore so I can say but even if I did appear in the court. I would say it. That do things. There are not just in failure. That are inequitable when it comes to collecting money. And getting fines and court calls paid. That these people that appear before the court. That's what I would like for your this month and ask answer the question is it too late to include some judges or other people on this panel or sturdy or whatever. You want a call it. To be included with let me respond what we did was we took the leadership like the county judged restimate melance the present county judges. Brenda the shields is the in the leadership she's on our board for the bent and county but we can include other folks this was just to help assist the study leg audit is actually going to get the information from everybody but we're we can broaden the steady group that's actually true be glad to I think for up for us it's I think from the countries to its organic so we're getting the more we educate folks and what we're doing the more people start to say oh II had that question to and they start coming to us we're we're sort of building a coalition is are going through but right now it's a lot of district lot of circuit city clerks and they're take a lot of interest right now but like I said the more we talk about the more people start talking amongst our sales but I stress my point. That in some parts of the state. You have different. Type. Of things going on in court and issues that are are presented in court you got genders running circuit steel with these one state district court run it all around and and then in terms of what does the local community are political subdivision to contribute they also provide the facilities. And so you know it's it's a whole lot of things that need to be questioned in here but I would hope that you are would get with legislative on it and look at some of those not too far back reports. On missing money. Big bucks. Thank you thank you mr chair. I'll want to follow up on representative ladyman chair will model be represented gas away the. We talked about spending money and we can always talk about spending more money but. I specially appreciated tear woman dolby bringing up efficiency. And the and the answer her back was world yalk and handle that will know that's part of what reports about. Is recommendations because you could recommend that state spend more money or their place was where we can save money that were were spent because everybody's always got there. Their stay called you know we got to keep this court we got with us and which also leads me to. The it's destroyed I know i'm not the only member of this committee that's hard this probably several. But it's distressing to hear. Are cause heard for a decade if not longer probably longer before I was in the legislature how we needed to go to full time district courts. Full time judges worse as partner. And it's distressing to hear that we are if it's true and it seems to be that we've got full time courts not meeting anymore than part time courts did and that especially we work city county local meeting and hot springs own housing. And we got a housing crosses that we didn't seem to have before. And one the reasons is that people are getting out of the rental business. Especially on the low because I can't get in the court. Forevictions. So the fact that we now have full time courts that's and not meeting more than a parking point if that's true but certainly we have local officials telling us that it's true so I would hope again that we're looking at efficiency and how we use in these resources because because there's a tendency when the money's coming from up here. Not to be as efficient that's that's something else for us to be concerned about and then the last thing I don't have anybody else has heard this or not but I had a district judge take me aside. And I don't remember the exact number but I know it was over twenty five percent so that over twenty five percent of their cases were coming from one major ret. Self checkout. And that they were dumping it all on them all the world. And this was especially discretion to me as a guy who has worked retail center as twelve years old. Because I can remember. I. It was senior employee just out of high school and i'm more russia and he you know he would come to me he wanted some need some for dollar two dollars and he had make me go to the register and check the amount because he said i'm not going to check myself out. And I know that not just my business but lots of businesses have rules against employees checking themselves out they have rules against employee checking family members out they have reports against someone who had a rules against employees checking. Friends out. And so then we create a problem that retail always knew was a problem and we dump it on everybody else in a court system that was already overloaded so I hope. That we're looking at a broader scope of where call started be distributed because it were creating a new problem that wouldn't a problem before. Twenty five percent of the court cost. If you get twenty five percent the cases I would think representative gas way you got twenty four percent of the cost. May not be popular to here if you're from one part of the state. Because it's not hard to guess who that major retailer is but but I hope we're looking at all those things thank. I'd like to clark in any other questions. Saying none of german. We appreciate thank you very much thank you. And. We don't have anything else of the agenda but what what used to if I mean I have just members that you're dask you should have a a sheet that's frotten back that usual tentative time guarding the court study and this is just the very beginning and keep that so you'll know and at the back of it it's also uh the study topics on their m yes as correct sir so in a few cannot keep the handy and the committee were everybody's welcome to to let us know what you think ought to be discussed at the next committee meeting I will point out the administrative office of course the district court division of a immistrative office courts been very involved in their gathering information and we'll hear from them and another announcement is senator stubberfield and I will be appearing before the legislative audit executive meeting thursday to ask them to approve having leg audit do a study like they did of circuit courts so we have all this information pulled together thank you mister chair. I prefer to do i'd also encourage each member to talk to you county judges about this. I mean setting up with them and discuss how this is affecting. Are there any. Anyway we appreciate you being here with that said we're journal. The.