ALC-JBC Budget Hearings (1:30P- 4:00P)

So just so everybody's. We are live now so you can call this meeting to order. And first up we have the department of transformation shared services Mr been men if you would. Give us a summary please. Thank you Mr chair. Everyone we're starting with manual three the DSS administration shared services starts on page two hundred eleven with the department appropriation summary on page two hundred and twelve. There are three appropriations for this section. We they are the DTS a secretary's office and administration there's was the third appropriation but that was related to a peer item that is not requested for this next by any. The agency to appropriation that requesting is three point eight million for the next biennium compared to their current authorized level of one point nine million that's a one hundred percent increase and. Will work You will go into the individual preparations now on page two hundred and thirteen we have the first appropriation this is the secretary's office. This appropriation provide for personal services expense for the office of the secretary and is funded by state central services. The agency is requesting appropriation in the amount of seven hundred and twelve thousand for FY twenty two and seven hundred and thirteen thousand for FY twenty three. Agencies request includes the following transfers of positions and related appropriation there's a transfer of one position to from the department information services. There are is a transfer of two positions and would appropriation from the office of personnel in state procurement operations from the department transmission shared services sure services deponent and there's a transfer of one position and associate appropriation from the DTS ES administration appropriation that's covered on the next page. The agency also request to change the appropriations title to DTS ES secretary's office exactly recommendation provide for the agency request along with time changes for positions and reclassification still be covered in personnel. On the next page two fifteen we have the DTS ES administration appropriation. This appropriation provides for the administration of the department of transformation shared services. Staff in this section will provide department wide administrative services including fiscal legal IT and human resources. This appropriation dot is also funded by state central services and the agency is requesting appropriation in the amount of three point one million for FY twenty two and FY twenty three. Agency request includes the following transfers of positions in a related appropriation there is a net seventeen positions there's a transfer in of seven positions from division of information systems ten positions from DTS ES offices a personal state procurement operations a transfer of one position from state wide shared services employee benefits division. And a transfer out of one position to department transformation office of the secretary that we talked about the previous page. The executor condition provides for the agency request along with title changes required vacations in our family reclassification that will be covered in personnel. The next appropriation is the one that's not being requested this is related to the may twenty seventh peer meeting that was to procure appalled supply PP for state departments. On to eighteen you see the shared services transfer report on page two eighteen is the appropriation that was transferred on page two hundred and nineteen you'll see the positions that were transferred. This is FY twenty twenty one through August thirty first twenty twenty. Now our next section we need to jump to page. Two hundred and fifty three. This is DeCSS state wide shared services. This is an additional component of DeCSS that was part of the same bill ACT twenty two of twenty twenty establish the department transmission church services. This is. This section has six total appropriations for which have changed months on page two two hundred fifty four you'll see the department appropriations summary. In total there requesting nineteen point seven million for the biennium their current authorized level is twenty point two million a reduction of five hundred thousand in appropriation. On page two fifty five this is the. OPM an office of state procurement OSP operations appropriation this provides for operations of DeCSS OPM state procurement which provide state agencies with assistance and expertise and personnel purchasing administering statutorily required controls it is funded out of state central for services. The agency's requesting appropriation in the amount of five point nine million for FY twenty two and approximately six million for FY twenty three which includes the following changes there's a transfer of ten positions and associated appropriation and personal services matching regular salaries to the administrative administration appropriation. And the DeCSS administration section and there's a transfer of two positions and associated regular salaries in person service matching to the office of the secretary. The executive edition provides for the agency request and related title changes and reclassification still be covered in personnel. On page two fifty seven. This is the miscellaneous cash appropriation this is a cash and treasury. Funded appropriation. This is used to provide spending authority for various activities. A the like the inter agency training program office of state procurement seminars vendor fees and rebates etcetera the source of funding is registration fees collected from participants attending training sessions seminars payment of vendor fees and other miscellaneous reimbursements and revenues. The agency is requesting appropriation in amounts of four point five million for FY twenty two and five million dollars for FY twenty three. The agency's request includes the following changes they're asking for an increase of a hundred thousand dollars in extra help and related ten thousand dollars appropriation and personal services matching each year of the biennium which will provide for the utilization of extra help positions and assist with state wide shared services projects. And FOR FY twenty three. The agency is asking for a total increase of five hundred thousand dollars to provide a sufficient appropriation for the department that they say will increase utilization of cash revenue and to reduce their reliance on states and services. That five hundred thousand dollars would be split across regular salaries which would increase by three hundred thousand personal services matching which would increase by ninety six thousand operating expenses which would increase by a hundred thousand and professional fees which would increase by four thousand. The executive edition provides the agency quite request and title changes to be covered in personnel. On page two hundred fifty nine this is the state wide track of the personal management travel card program. This is funded by miscellaneous revolving fund and it is used for rebates and FOR vendor banks distribute distribution to participating agencies and FOR operating expenses connected with the administration of the person travel card program. The agency is requested to continue appropriation any amount of four million each for the biennium and executive recommendation provides for the agency request. On page two sixty one our next appropriation this is. The marketing redistribution appropriation this is funded by fees charged for goods and services offered through the marketing and re distribution warehouse. The it provides for operation of state what your services their marketing redistribution program. The agency's requesting appropriation in the amount of approximately one point four million for each year the biennium. Which includes the change they're asking for. To restore. FOR restore under twenty thousand dollars in capital outlay each year the biennium to provide FOR couldn't Quitman replacement operates. The executive recognition provides for the agency requests along with time change that will be covered in personnel. On page two sixty three. This is in play benefits division this is their operations appropriation which manages the group health and life insurance programs and others like benefit programs for active and retired state employees. They're requesting salary matching adjustments made in the current biennium a request to continue into the next biennium. Senate the agent would be is requesting appropriation the amounts of three point one million for FY twenty two and FY twenty three. The agency requests includes the following transfer of one position associated appropriation. To the department transmission state what your services administrative services appropriation which is back on page two fifteen. An executive recommendation provides for the agency request. Our last appropriation for DeCSS administration insured services this is the I. T. expenses appropriation this provides for data processing development implementation and has been in operation of I. T. within the TSS. The agency's present to continue appropriation in the amount of six hundred thousand dollars each of the biennium of and this is funded by state central services. The executive recommendation provides for the agency request and Mr chair the completes concludes my presentation for the department transmission and shared services administration. All right. Looks like we have some questions here. We go ahead and have agency come on in. Thank we're gonna get term. seat number ten. I believe that this represented love. Thank you Mr chair and. just in looking in the DTS system budget and I'm I guess we're kind of pulling pieces from all over a state government can you can you can you inform me. That have we seen the. Have we seen the number of positions flow. In the I'm I'm I'm trying to get a cat I'm trying to capture pictures of like the budget in what we're doing here. With the TSS have you seen the the. The positions in the funding go from different agencies to do TSS and. In house that I guess and. Are we are we having any savings that's I guess that's what I'm more concerned about. Represented for the specifics I will defer to the agency. actually. Miserably might be able to help with that as well. Okay because it because that's that's what I'm more concerned about an army. Well a lot of well I'm not a concert the agency is I think we I think as a as the the alarm needs to know that information for the sake of of we need to know the information in so I'm just trying to see if we're seen in. parts of our government if if if the TSS is is having a combination of my different pieces a D. F. and A and Opie and all the are we just in a direct correlation of. The funding the budget going down in those agencies and DCS. Receiving out I'm just trying to get a a caption account for picture this so. I would I would really be more comfortable with the LR. I have that information so that we can have a direct correlation. And not you know having the pin on the agency to actually tell us this but our economy I can hear from the agency but I think is is you know. If we have that information were. What will the if you can get with staff on specific questions for the moment what we have agency with us in front of us we'll we'll start listening to what they have as a starting point on answering some of those questions madam secretary if you would state your name and. Trying to. Answer those questions please any fat sure secretary of the department of transformation shared service I'm not sure that I heard the entire question could you repeat it for okay so this is what I'm I'm trying to get it are we seeing a direct correlation between the decrease in D. F. and A and all these other agencies that you're pulling pieces from. It is far as the budget and the the decrease in the budget. The decrease in and personnel and we're seeing the common right within the TSS that that's what I'm trying to. Yes we have had a decrease in the budget and the number of personnel we we as you know we didn't exist before July first of twenty nineteen so we are in a particular situation that everything that we have came from another department another agency okay so so so if I was to look at different ages budget in I can see a direct correlation between that the dollars that they did exist they're coming to your agency so there's not and there hasn't been a it is not going to be a increase is gonna be like if the if you had if you are ten dollars and two employees over this can be ten dollars and two employees of it over with you. I understand I'm trying to see it I don't know the number of employees that they had it DFA I know that we have several positions that have not been field as a result of savings and transformation and I do know that we we do have a decrease budget from what we we began with okay yeah that's the car so sudden Mister chairman that's the information I'll be I'll be interested in seeing. All right thank you. Representative. Wardlaw I believe if you're online at. If you're able to speak you have some cool you're recognized for some questions. Thank you Mr chairman six three can you can you tell us an exact number of what you see the savings being at the end of this fiscal year being your first as per year. I would hesitate to give an exact number on savings but you know as as you know when we when you all passed act nine ten of twenty nineteen the legislature it it it focused on more than just dollars and cents there were three pillars that the governor laid out for transformation efficiencies but and in funding but also in processes and and and time improve managerial services and then improve delivery of services to the citizens so it's hard to quantify each one of those I can give you some some examples. So what you're telling me it's kind of like the retired health plans we really don't know what we say but we keep talking about all the savings you know we just went through the department of labor last week. And all those boards and commissions we had eleven out of that group they were going to be negative we saw some funny mass where like the scholarships were added back here and even though they were going to pay to scholarships and it made him go into the green but they're still in the red and those people are going to have to see fee increases if we don't fix and we passed bustling with just a morning to fix it which means general revenue has to fill those gaps that's all due to transformation so those numbers have to be added up so what is your foresight in how we speak some of these issues four four. Well I believe you can't fix everything in the first year of any major reorganization whether it be government for our business and I believe we've got to give it a little bit more time you know part of why would why we groups some of the regulatory boards the way we did it is based on some work that was done in two thousand and one and two thousand and seven by at the legislative audit and their recommendations word to consolidate the boards the regulatory boards and and they said that that we would find savings it it will take a little time also because that. You all in the the governor agreed that there should not be any job losses through transformation so we're going you know on a a slower process then we could have gone but that that's to ensure that everyone had a job and didn't lose a job so we're we're doing that through attrition it just takes a little longer. Mister chairman I just like to put a flag. Property please all right staff have has that done for you seat number. Sixty one is that Senator hammer still you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman let me I'm on our page two fifty four which is the department appropriation summary. And just little explanation if you all could either from staff for a secretary from you. In the two thousand nineteen two thousand twenty you've got the actual figures and then you go over to the twenty twenty one and you see what the budget is. But then you go over to the twenty twenty one words authorized and those numbers are higher than what the actual was could you help me understand the increase in the numbers as it goes across the columns left right please. Thanks staff can answer that. Senator hammer Kevin Anderson bureau of legislative research. you're correct on when you look at twenty those are actual that's the first column actual says twenty nineteen twenty twenty at the top those are actual expenditures that the agency spent. When you look at the authorized appropriation level for the year were in that's two columns over that's their authorized appropriation level. As you know expenditures have to be less than thank you can be equal to but can't be more than the authorized appropriation so when you look at twenty one and twenty two and twenty three twenty four that is appropriation levels those are not expenditures those are the appropriation levels that you were telling us in this committee wants to make a recommendation what to put in their bill. So you you're correct the appropriation levels are higher than actual expenditures you're gonna find that with every agency to some extent. Okay with that explanation secretary let me ask you because this is a newly created. Department why would we need to set your appropriation levels so much higher than the actual given that you've got one year history why would we need the appropriation levels to be that much higher. In purpose chief of staff one of the things we look at Senate senator Hamburg we are in the process of making sure that we maximize everybody's time as as we move forward so we look at every time there's a an open position on whether or not we need to have that field we are very thinly staffed right now and so we don't want to under estimate and not be able to provide the services we have to do across state government so I know that like for in particular PM is very lean right now over the years the if they did a good job of of decreasing positions we've continued that but at some point you really need to kind of take a breath and make sure that you don't cut your staff to the point that they're no longer able to provide services on an ongoing basis. House can under the impression that was part of what share services was all about that as we got the positions transferred over to you all that that would level out and we would need to add any more positions so are you saying that you're not fully staffed at this time or. Well we always have advertised positions like any other department but right now what we're doing is we're holding steady and we're reviewing every time a a vacancy come becomes open and whether or not we can absorb that internally within the department or not the as an example of a when we came on board soon after two attorneys left of the department but because of how we reorganized our legal services within the department over all we don't have to feel those positions any longer so those are gonna be two positions that we could surrender up in this process so that type of analysis that we do on an ongoing basis. Okay and we had agency in here this morning that was talking about how that the potentially may be able to cover some of their salaries by. Proportionate out two of federal programs is is that reflected in any of the other departments that are under your services that we might see that some of the cost of the salaries or some of the expenses of the agencies could be proportioned out to the feds and would that creating savings. It could here is there's two departments act actually all EVD. A building authority and department of information systems are all subject federal audit because of how the funding a person there they're basically there's money that's assessed to federal programs and in particular department of information systems is what we call a cost recovery program so if we as we save money on any of those efforts that that efforts passed on to the different programs with other state or federal programs we could sexy savings there as well are you counting those as part of the savings that are attributed to transformation. Yes we normally try to break those out if we can't but something like a blended service the department of information systems might do on telecom it's very difficult to to blend that out but we are we do look on that on an ongoing basis as well. And on state central services why the increase in the appropriation level for it. As as you can tell us Senator we don't anticipate having additional positions but we need the flexibility because we are so new and we have been so strict about hiring any additional positions we don't want to undercut our efforts moving forward so this just gives us the flexibility to be able to to our comply with anything that comes down in case there's additional needs of the different departments. Mr canasta question please Kevin yes and and. We're starting to get to the I'm done long queue so this is the last one and then jump back in thank you appreciate. Kevin would you refresh my memory on procedures that if we wanted to hold their appropriation levels down. Throughout the after we do that they could come back before the legislative branch and asked for an increase in their appropriation of throughout the next biennium is that in my correct on that yes Sir Mr chairman. Thanks Sir yet that would be to peer peers the peer subcommittee has mechanisms in place to provide additional appropriation authority. Get a go back button Hugh Mr thank you thank you and members as I said we're gonna a long list so please. Try to keep all your questions specifically related to the budget and not necessarily the policy of transformation will debate that I'm sure. As we go along. Seat number forty five Representative Lundstrum you're recognized. Thank you I'm just a quick question or maybe not I don't know on page. Where to go. A. Two fifty six. The number of positions. We have historically forty positions budgeted seventy seven authorized eighty nine. And then for next year it's seventy three. That's a. Big jump at them we needed an extra help. In personnel services operating expenses. We we had extra help of one of the nine this that's a big difference. You have to hire some more folks to pigeon or doing ninety now you'll you'll see a decrease in other areas this is where we brought the shared services the state wide shared services together so the increase here you'll find in decreases in other divisions okay. And then underneath operating expenses. On page. Two fifty eight. Forty seven thousand and change but it was budgeted eight hundred and fifty thousand. And it but the actual was way down which is great but the budget was eight hundred and fifty thousand is that A contingency and what is that contingency for. That's on page two fifty eight under operating expenses. Part of the increase there is because we are expecting revenue to come and that was not formally there from our E. procurement system and so we have a place holder there that there could be a and the appropriation for that to come in what we like to do is to offset some of the state central services with any of that income. Anything that that's gonna be that much money we don't really know yet we don't really know yet okay fair enough thank you. Is that also true for the one point five million is that the consultant contract you're talking about down there at the bottom of that page. Now there is no consultant for that. Okay so it's just operating line item you're expecting to go from. Less than fifty thousand to almost a million dollars. Yes. seat number. Thirty eight. A Representative Cavenaugh you are recognized. Thank you Mr chair my questions dealing with the secretary's office it's our two fourteen. I question is I hear is always saying that we don't want to get rid of any personnel and we're going to use it through attrition just from someone who has operated a business with the central service model for twenty years the only way we save money was getting rid of people that's why we went to a simple service so when you say that you're not gonna get rid of personnel that's not going to work just saying and here's my point. And twenty we had seven hundred eighty seven thousand dollars that we used in personnel and personnel matching employee benefits. That was an average salary of including benefits of ninety eight thousand. You're asking us to authorize now seven hundred and twelve thousand four five employees. That's an average salary and benefits of a hundred and forty two thousand five hundred and seventy nine dollars. So we're increasing what we're paying for employee but we got less employees. So what I would like to ask of the secretary and the department is to please provide me and all of the staff and all the legislators a list of employees. And if they were raised how much they're rise were when they got transferred in. So you you'd like the salary for the secretary's office the five staff members in the secretary's office and any race they got when they came over yes. We can get you that thank you. Thank you. seat number. Eight eighteen represented Wooten you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman I'll route along over the start. This storage is point madam secretary. And your total agency you're you're authorized four hundred eighty you've got three hundred and fifty one that's a hundred and twenty seven fill positions which is a mail to about five point seven million dollars now too many I don't care what the three pillars or the transformation and reorganization. Means to me you won't cut you going to go because people are you gonna cut dollars somewhere. To miss Kavanagh is position I I looked at it from the standpoint of just the salaries in with the they were seventy five thousand just so salaries average and with the the five it's a hundred and twelve thousand two hundred dollars. The end your your your budgeted for thirty nine cents thirty four the twenty five it's on the next page. Yes it is and if I could address the vacant positions for you Representative Wooten as of yesterday when we pulled it we showed a hundred and twenty four but the in the manual I'm sure your numbers correct but as you know all of the positions that are it D. I. S. which is the majority of our vacant positions there's a hundred and eight at department of information systems those are not funded it's just simply appropriation and right now we have sixteen of those vacant positions that are in the hiring process so that take this down to forty four actual funded budgeted and funded vacant positions Whitaker forty five thousand would would leave is that about one point nine million this talk about the. Okay it's six of one. Twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen I got for a twenty seventeen and thirteen for twenty eighteen over two years so right and this is you know those positions the need to to to be looked at and all all the positions which you said miss Purvis said she was going to the. But. Hello. Do you anticipate what what what actions are you all going to tell you. To to say you to save money or to reduce and cut back. We're looking for a hard to move thank you. But you were you providing more more services or better services to the people of Arkansas. Right we're looking at a variety of things not just positions but we we are examining the positions very closely. Aging now all of the divisions within the department of transformation as in the secretary's office came over from a different department so we're working with what we were given we had a year and three months to be evaluating exactly where the need is and so we do anticipate surrendering positions we just don't think we're ready to do that at this point. The agencies to evaluate each and ever position that they have. Yes we do their controls on on the hiring process and so each agency has to go through a process to get a position field. Okay the. Reporter that while ago seven million dollars difference. Between what you actually spent. Twelve and you're asking for nineteen million. You were given to our authorized twenty million. To help what what what are you anticipating costing seven million dollars more. The. Representative would not just basically is what was currently transferred over to us and then as we created during the fiscal session as we created the budget in the fiscal session that was the authorized positions so that's always kind of the starting point of where we were at that particular point in time it's not where we are operationally let's not even we're secretary venture has recommended us to be one example of savings it's hard to quantify but it is real savings is we took over the HR functions of the department of information systems I had five positions in that operations once again it's cost recovery it's their overhead that they build out in their rates but those five positions we were able to absorb the human resource functions with our existing one person within the arctic ministration office within department of of transformation shared services. Those other positions were reassigned or they weren't field if they were vacant when I became vacant they're not being filled so that's kind of the process that we're going through on on on a case by case basis and we do think there's some positions that we will be able to give up and reviewing those closely right now. Can you can represent in Canada. Representative Wooten if. Fite finish this one up and get back in the queue we've we've got a long list here. Can can you give us a report. When you give um miss Cavenaugh our report. Onus name report the number of positions. That you brought in in the number that you have saved or reduced or cut back a. How many how many were in the agencies that you were all the And how many You have reduced the. When you say reduced by area. Feeling. That that you can only see we can surrender on during the session many many positions came from DFA or any other. This one number one line next line is how many of those do you still have a. We have all of them right now we haven't surrender would have to do that three fifty one the no three hundred fifty one. This budget okay. So here to stay all right thank you senator DISMANG you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman and and this is. Related maybe not direct related but I think it plays into some of the the question we had it goes back to these cash agencies and other thought that some we're going to be forced to go into the red in and so I don't I'm this is a kind of a blank a question about who I need to go to to get additional information since that seems to be a focus point. As you know it's my first question is is you know who was previously paying for the services or how were they paying for the services that the receiving and then also then how was that tractor accounted for which there repayment to D. if a if they were receiving DFA counting services did we ever see it in budget it is there some way to follow through because I mean I think and I hope I'm wrong that what we're seeing is we had a lot of cash agencies that were actually in the red if you counted for all the expenditures there actually incurring but not having to pay for which again goes back to anyone that pays taxes then was you know what we thought I think most of us here that we were paying for with their cash money not a whole lot think about but in fact we were using general revenue you kind of behind the scenes to help back fill those particular agency is there a way to track that since that seems to be such a. Point. I think Senator Mr bleed has a response for you. Thank you. Stevie J. plea DFA office of budget so what we would need to do is go back and look at the positions that we had in the service bureau IDSA prior to transformation and look at the salaries in the match for those positions. I don't know that we would have any means of allocating the costs of those positions evenly across all the different boards and commissions we can make an estimate of course but you know at that time previously the the boards and commissions were not independently charged for the they're utilization of those service so I I don't know that we have of an honorable final number on it we can certainly give you a sense of if we go back a few years of imagine we would be could be able to give you a sense of how much of the service bureau operator. Okay so those expenses existed there just swallowed up in a position and no one knew one agency was getting twenty hours were so a service a week for that employee or five hours or ten or there was there was there no allocation. Previously and it just kind of disappeared into the numbers. Not that I'm aware of my understanding of it and I can double check with the. Right at that time my understanding is that are you would have service bureau employees within state accounting with the procurement within our community and then also my office office a budget and just the responsibility for making whichever board commission got its needs met was assigned out to the agencies just like everybody else and it was just routine duty you know if of the motor vehicle commission for example needed their budget turned in we put their budget together for them and it was just one more thing that one of my employees had done as part. Okay. All right so at the maybe we can try to figure it because again it just seems to be so much of this conversation but what it what it showed me was that when we're sitting here talking about how. Quick we passed the cash agencies will maybe in fact mean they're there if there were if they were coming up short and having to pay for their services at this point or some allocation there services than they were short we're passing their previous previous preparations budgets and whatever else it may be which I think deserve a second look because I don't think any of us were thinking about the fact that we're spending general revenue tax dollars proper of these cash agencies so with that I I would love to dive into that was someone of I haven't had a chance just cause other obligations to be able to do that so who who would ever be willing to do that I'd appreciate some side part time thank. Senator we will get to work on and I'll be in contact with you. Center Hendren I believe C. twenty four. You're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman before I get started I just got a text from one of our members participating remotely asking us to maybe be a little bit more diligent with our mascot discipline so I promise to pass it on so considered passed on. as you know we've had some issues here with that so I hope everybody will comply with that. I guess I'm a big fan a transformation because I think we saw happening what we see happening is the same thing that happened in government opinion in industry private industry ten or fifteen years ago nobody ran their businesses like we were running this government so Mike my question first question is for B. alarm for Kevin this is the first time we presented budget with this reduction in number of agencies what has been how what is your all's feedback on how it is to present the budgets in general in lieu of the way we've restructured the the government the budgeting process our Kevin was take their somebody else. Could you but I guess what I'm asking is now you're presenting what to how many different departments verses all the agencies that we present two years ago correct yes Sir so is that more work less worker the same. It's call it's close the same it probably has simplified lot of our processes and for scheduling is for is grouping things together it has there have been some positive effects and for sure okay and I and I know you hear a lot of push back on transformation and to be honest with you I'm not surprised about that no no entity protects itself from change more than a government entity it when people are trying to change it and that's I think a lot of what we see happening here and I told the governor early on when this happened I predicted we would see this and was going to be important for there to be feedback real feedback in real dollars about what the overall affected transformation was and I think what I hear from members as we're not really getting that in as good a picture and maybe J. can help I know what we hear is we save ten million here we say five million here but I think what we need is a macroscopic view of the entire effort how many positions have changed how many positions do we see the change after tradition fully is impacted what is the savings today and what with the savings be after all the attrition is taken place because I think that was part of the selling point that we insisted on as the legislature was there one going to be tremendous savings out the back because we were going to have a bunch of government layoffs we're gonna do it through attrition so we need to know what the impact of that is and what it will be when that impact is completed so I don't know whether Jake needs to do it whether the transformation office needs to do it but I think what would really help General Assembly understand the net impact of transformation is give us the thirty thousand foot view on that changes in personnel and dollars as you've seen over the last twelve months today. And what you predict wants to fully implement I think that would really make it easier for us to get the big picture. Thank you senator Hendren Jake and I have already been talking about how we can put together a dashboard that would show you some of those metrics. part of it is measured in in time and processes and not just in dollars but what we definitely are trying to track that as well I mean I think it is so important to be able to get that message not just to the General Assembly but to the public into the state employees about how this is going to their needs to be some contracted helper or spare somebody to come and do that it needs to be done because again we did that with healthcare as we look to health reform we put together the dashboard predicted to saving show the impacts and it was really helpful I just think we need the same thing on transformation thank you. Thank you senator Mr believe did you have some that did that. No other than look for to working with all of you on that and and I think Senator hundreds comments on something different advantages as being created commission is spot on a lot of what Amy was talking about earlier I can see in our budget and operation on our side has been much easier and more she is the list of people that I can call and say Hey I need your help with something or I've got a question now a third of its. The people that I'm calling to talk to our CFO level department local folks the people I post relate with the people one trusts and the that I can call lot that I can help we can get a lot more done faster and I think more. That's all thank you Sir. Thank you Jerry See. Representative Cavenaugh. Thank you Mr chair I'm gonna go to page two fifty six now. This is on procurement and this is in the description that this is going to be an expertise and. Helping state departments with personnel purchasing and that type of thing. So I'm assuming that from this with the increase did you authorize you had actual forty but you're going to go up to seventy three. That's actually because you're moving some of the procurement process to your area. Is that correct. To narrow to fifty five and two fifty six that would be our what we're calling our state wide shared services which is ET D. O. S. P. and PM this is just a movement of positions it's not creating new positions within that. I realize that but the position that you're moving are they people that do actual procurement for the state. Now. The procurement for the state the employees are in each department they support them with a higher level our if peas are if cues statewide contracts and things of that nature is what our office of state procurement as. Okay so on this we're not actually. Getting rid of anybody's doing procurement dollar just providing them assistance. I do not know what the other fourteen departments are doing with their procurement staffs maybe maybe Jake could help answer that for us but but yes that historically and and going forward we are assisting the center for department fourteen departments thank you. All rights seat number. Sixteen I'm not sure who's in that Representative back. You're recognized. three of thank you. Mr. In some of the. My question is. Is this I have a hard time squaring some of the some of the things I'm here we're protecting positions because we don't really know where they're gonna need him or not but we could do now we can't get rid of positions of what we were to use a tradition to get rid of positions through efficiencies So you know that doesn't really square very well A then the other thing is that the question I had is so we can look at the budget ahead and say this. What is your timeline I mean I I I appreciate the efficiency you know trying to get things done quicker and and that that that's a very important point but but in industry we would say that as you make a process I think use of our process user you make a process more efficient or the individual during the process more efficient than that means that the the output is greater which if you're saying that as a state government we have the same amount of issues that you guys are going to deal with I guess my question is this is there is there a time line you deserve. Department have a time line that says okay this is a goal that we're looking at that we're gonna. Now I'm just because of that five percent of this we're gonna get a five percent reduction the due to increased efficiency and reduced by the year whatever year that is but everything in here looks like it's it's at this the same if not more. And I guess that's the question. We are doing exactly that we're we're really going as a modified lean approach I'm sure you're familiar with that we are going through our processes at trying to eliminate paper where we can and that's one of the reasons we have an nine extra help positions because we've got a lot of scanning to do in order to get past the paper process but one of and so we want to use extra help just as needed for that but but the other thing that we're seeing is as as you can see we're not asking to increase the positions on an ongoing bases we're just doing the status quo right now and I know that secretary factor has passed us to come back to her fairly soon with the positions that we don't think we're going to need for the next by any. And that's kind of what we're working on right now and so we will have those numbers for you very shortly but I've got to really taught you know and very detailed process get down the basic process level to make sure that we don't under cut our operations on in the long term so I've got a very short deadline to meet and I'm gonna meet it. I appreciate I appreciate. I very much and so I appreciate the fact that you're using wing processes because I'm a big advocate of that process. But I would encourage you that saying that very soon are quickly are and those type terms they tend to put things way out further than what we think they are that I would put challenges to now we're gonna do this by this date and that's our goal whether we make it or not that's another story but that would that'll help you with your lan process and and making people hit your targets. Thank you Representative On page two sixteen. In our book fair. If you would. Kind of touch base on your actual expenditures was two point one million in the last actual year but you're asking for four million is. In this is kind of consistent as we go throughout your your overall thing are you are you just moving the total appropriations from other agency or the other departments that you're moving things in into the line item and leaving at the same as what the the request was prior to reasons that we've asked for this appropriation at this level this this is actually pass through so a lot of this money goes back to the different departments and agencies so it's not actually money that we receive within the department itself but we anticipate with some of the initiatives we have for efficiency such as the E. procurement that the the P. card will start being used more because it'll be tied into aces for for a reconciliation processes and so these fees collected on this type of payment are going to increase over the next biennium significantly we anticipate so the bill almost double is what your anticipation is right in and so those fees will come back through to the to the different departments as well well they reduce in other areas as their increasing in this one. At the eight it's have a attribute that how to use that funding for basically within their departments is probably the smaller you are the just as you can imagine the less you'll receive so it's just basically upon your buying power. As as you look throughout. Your operating expenses and Sir I don't have the. The next page two sixty two. Operating expenses in this particular one. Is again your preparation three hundred fifty eight thousand as your request but you spent a hundred and forty three in the last actual year I was again that's more than double. At what you're expenditure was do not have a. Kind of a better idea than double gonna be double actually what we've seen is is we've really gone to social media marketing for miss marketing redistribution which allows a little bit more we were saying our our sales for to double a little bit when we do that and so that's what we anticipated perhaps that would have cars over the last several weeks to let several months we're really making an effort to do to maximize the resale value of prostate surplus property out it marketing redistribution certain on that particular one your expenses go up based off sales so it's a. A proportional increase depending on how successful right what we'd like today what secretary factor has directed as much as we can move off state central services and onto the cash that we can generate their operations we should try to do that so this allows us the flexibility to do that okay. Thank you Senator hammer. You're recognized. Thank you Mr chair just in simplest terms let me ask you if I got the picture right so the actual expenses were twelve million two hundred sixty eight. And the appropriation requests for the budget request is nineteen million seven hundred and twenty one for difference of seven million four hundred thousand might correct on that so far. I mean. Yes that's the authorized appropriation level okay and my understanding what you're saying as to why you need the seven four is because as you go through the adjustments with one year and three months under your belt you're not quite certain how it's all going to shake out as far as with the final moves in the you've got I think you said fifteen hires in the process is this kind of your cushion for continuing the transformation process. Is that a fair ecards statement on my mission. Are you asking if the appropriation level staying the same is is the question or or you our time at the position Senator have hammer. Just talk about the overall numbers the the your total request is nineteen million seven twenty one in appropriation request is that in my right on that yes okay and that takes into account all expenses for shared services and the agencies that are now under shared services is that correct yes Sir okay so the seven million four hundred thousand. You feel that you need that in order to continue to make the adjustments created by shared services or the transformation is that correct yes. Okay when the original report was given I thank the recommendation was a transformation should occur over a period of time and be phased in but we kinda just swelled the whole wealth and at one time. Before would make a motion like to get your feedback as far as how you would feel if we went in and we took the seven four and we cut it in half and if you get to that level come back before peer because based on the testimony today there's someone certainty as far as what it looks like moving forward should like your input please. Well if you're asking me if I'd like you to cut it in half no Sir would not I'd like you to approve it the way it is but we will work with the General Assembly and whatever you lay out for department. Why would we not be able to cut it in half given the tone of uncertainty as far as how the next year is going to look with one year and three months experience so that we could participate and monitor as we go we give you some breathing room but we're not gonna give you all the reading room. I believe you do participate in the process as we go on and and you know if if that were the case why would you not cut everyone's budget by that amount. Thank you Mr about all right thank you senator and On page two sixty four. The operating expenses of I think it is I guess that's probably going to be a similar answer as to what you mentioned before But my question on this one is the number of positions you had fourteen positions is going to thirty you're requesting thirty positions. I mean that's almost a doubling of the the authorized position you're requesting Or that what you're actually is verses your authorized position but you're you're a actual expenditures and appropriation request isn't changing very much in that line item for salaries match our. One thing that You can look at is that during nineteen twenty fiscal year we we just started on July one of nineteen so we didn't have the entire fiscal year so that's one reason your axles are so much lower than your Authorized budgeted on that is in SO that credentials just for half of fiscal year that makes a lot more sense thank you. representatives Wooten you're recognized. Madam secretary I will address page two twenty seven on some of the income. There's a narrow listed for actual income of fifty four thousand one hundred on interest but there's nothing shown and twenty two twenty twenty one twenty two or twenty three. This is from and to be a. That would be from the building authority and I would. Asked that we can get director Laidlaw appear to answer your question specifically if that's okay. I think that's actually in the next well a couple so section so if we can come back to that one Representative but because we're not quite to that point in bone loan repayment. We show one point seven million. Eleven twenty two. In the next two years it's nine point eight seven and ten point seven. Where is it increase coming from. A wrecker Laidlaw could answer this question a little bit better but basically the this is the revolving energy loan program so it's revolving fund a lot of times is there is a large project primarily at higher education institutions they may need to they would like to access this money for those energy efficient savings so that's just for us to have that a that available for us. Then the land the other shows two hundred and three thousand. And in one point four million. In the end your request. Right there's a variety of different funding mechanisms going into the division of building authority whether it's rent proceeds or sometimes it's bond issue repayment those kind of things are specialties like the justice fund so there's a lot of different funding that goes into that to to capture those different categories okay. Mr room one more question on page of the. Well it is. If the address that when you ask your question that's fine thank you Mr chairman okay thank you. And what will have the we'll get to the building authority section here. After we finish with this section the agenda Representative Cavenaugh I believe it is. Thank you Mr chair I'm I'm on page two fifty eight any kind of cover this earlier but I don't think I quite understood on external consulting contracts you're asking for one point five million. What would that be used for. We currently have no ease for an external contract that's what we sent over from DFA and that that line item so that that's what we're we're continuing it at. Well if you have no need for it what did you put it in there. We currently have no need for it senator Hendren was one that they suggested that maybe we need a consultant to work on the dash board and I think that's a great idea. For one and a half million. I don't know if that's a good idea or not. It's just the appropriation not the funding I realize that but appropriation is an authorization to spend so you have to start with appropriation to cut or you never cut spending madam secretary thank you. Thank you Representative Cavenaugh and. That is all the questions we've got in the queue for this section. So we've come to that point I need to motion. Senator hammer. You're recognized. Thank you Mr chair of like to make motion. That we. Cut the appropriation request. In half between the difference of the actual and the budget request. Which appropriation are you looking at exactly I'm on page two fifty for the department appropriation summary. So there's. Six different appropriations there are you wanted it to go. Half on any excess appropriation spread out amongst all of the different ones that's I think that's would like to do is not to to go between for example on the top line. There was P. operations where the actual is five six one seven. But we would authorize use appropriations of six eight nine nine. To split the difference between those two by fifty percent. let me let me have Kevin get in here make sure we understand what your motion is specifically yes Sir just so we're looking at proper numbers here that the actual is five point six million for twenty. The authorized for the current year that were in is six point eight that's an appropriation bill that's already eight for this year six point eight million all right with the requesting and what were acting on is for the next two years you'll see that five point nine in the twenty one twenty two column. So that's the number that this committee is recommending for the appropriation bill but their actual expenses. For one year's worth of operation was five point six one seven is that correct it was in twenty yes Sir. In in twenty two they're asking for five point nine. And that this account for any changes or movements that they've made in this request. Six. Twenty two and it's six and twenty two. I'm sorry say it again and if you go further to fiscal year twenty three twenty two twenty three it's their requesting six million. So if I wanted to cut their. Operation request. In have so that they would have to come back before us in peer when they hit the fifty percent threshold between their actual in what they're requesting which numbers would it be. We thank you would be the five nine mine is the five six. You would split the difference between that. I think is that is what you're you're getting an and you have to go all the way down that column of the executive recommendation for twenty one twenty two and executive recognition for twenty two twenty three. So the can I can we go to Mr chairman Katic yes please if we go to page two fifty six this is an example of what we would look at. You'll see for salaries in match there's forty positions. And it was three point nine and eleven thousand for the match the agencies requesting four point one was seventy three positions. I guess we could I guess you're saying to take half of that increase over the three point nine to the four point one. some issues I would like to point out is professional fees zero and there's they're requesting. Which is the current authorized level of eight thousand five hundred out of I'm not sure how we would act on that with this motion I would need clarification. Mr let me let me. Withdraw the motion for now thank you. We've got some other questions in the queue or motions potentially so that one's withdrawn. seat number. Ninety two. I can't see through all the glass who said in there. That the. Senator Johnson I believe you're recognized. So is some of the some of the confusion common from we had a half a year and two thousand nineteen in the actual. Recognizing math Secretary fetching might be able to answer that a little bit more because that's kind of my understanding of what you said a little earlier that is what I said but I've been corrected. Okay so it wasn't have here it was for her. Okay so. Is that it senator Johnson yes okay seat. Twenty. Senator Hendren. You're recognized thank you Mr any I was just gonna make a substitute motion sensors not one I'll just make a motion I guess but I want to get clarification from Kevin's aren't and from you Mr chair as far as when you say you're looking for a motion with the point now where we can improve this or something else with it right yeah we're either gonna prove I mean typically at this point would be doing either executive rack or agency request. Or some sort of alternative to that. A exact for the most part I think. Yes on on all these these are the what we're just looking at that Well this section here so yes they're all the same section I guess what I'd say is there's not very many people here and there seems to be a lot of questions yet and before we go cut and what I would argue is one of the most important agencies that we have because of what we passed last session bhajan or appropriation and half we need to give some time for us to have some dialogue and for them to come back and present some of the information that we requested and whether again I I I made the comment that we need to have if the consultants necessary in the long term I was certainly not proposing that at this point that we put stuff in appropriations all the time don't get funded until the legislature peer comes back in approved. So that that the the question I guess motion I would make is that we ask them to come back in a in a couple weeks of it can be scheduled with a little bit more thorough presentation on what the overall effect of transformation has been. Positions and dollars to to the question that many people a vast and then I think it was going to be more comfortable understanding yeah there's some increases in this in this budget but those are offset by savings that were generated or will be generated shortly but and because of the changes so that that would be my motion. So senator we have a consistency days actually already on our calendar for November the nineteenth so that's basically put in at the very end the budget hearing cycle. Would your motion be to bring that was on that day let's do that and again I think hopefully in a sounds like checks for fun and a friend. Hopefully between now and then we can we get them what we what we are asking for to help us be more comfortable with passing this okay so I've got a motion to to hold this budget until the nineteenth and maybe get a little bit more clarity in details I've got a second looks like we've got some discussion potentially on the motion so seat number. Sixty two Representative Jean. Thank you Mr chairman of. And I think I heard this earlier from miss Purvis. Of that of. You have been instructed to to look at these positions in a quick time and come back and make a recommendation is that going to be before November's is something we're looking at to bring in in January during the budget hearings. House soon can we can we streamline this because I what the legislators are hearing is the the governor wants to continue tax cuts try to get down to five percent and you know there's there's talk now of the EITC which is is going to be a A he it and and what the what a comfort level is is that can we afford anymore tax cuts and quite frankly transformation is going to be the key that have we gotten lean enough and are can this be done by the third week in Jane November order or is something that we need to wait on on the budget hearings in January. We can definitely make suggestions and come back on our positions and dollars I'd I just wanna make sure everyone understands I have approximately four hundred positions within transformation shared services so I'm responsible for those positions we would have to go to the other fourteen secretaries to look at positions on a a globally for for all of executive branch so I'm I'm I just I guess I'm asking for clarity if you want to drill down in my department or all of all of the executive branch of state government. And. Hold on. Representative Jean do you have. That made my statement and you know what I would think we need to do to draft the bills is to go ahead and pass executive rack we can always come back and change the S. and in in the and I think they to me there will be some demand for some type position cuts that's what people voted for transformation and but I I'm just not sure that the could get there by the third week in November. I don't know I think overall probably to get with all fifteen sector or fourteen other secretaries and have it all across it's probably unrealistic for everything to happen by the third week in November but for for these four hundred positions in this transfer D. TSS division that's probably is that a realistic goal to get something back we can come back to you yes okay so that that's probably what we're we're looking at realistically is is just for this particular budget okay okay um C. eight H.. Not sure who's in sixty eight over here. That represented Payton. You're recognized thank you Mr chair guess I need to make a substitute motion as I look at page two fifty four. And the separate appropriations there. Most of the excess appropriation seem to be in the miscellaneous cash and that travel card that they use. So I move that we go with executive wreck with the exception of land to which is the miscellaneous cash and reduce that four point five million by two and a half million. And then line three which is the travel card reduce that four million dollar one million leaving it at three at the three point five reduction in the excess appropriation. And I believe that would allow us to go ahead and draft the bills and I don't even see where that to about positions I was just basically access appropriation. All right got a substitute motion. I don't hear second. I've got a second on that so. and that just just so staff has that can you repeat that one more yes I'm looking at page thank you Mr chair I'm looking at page two hundred and fifty four if you go to the twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two budget. The second line is it for four point five million. And their actual spend has been one point two so I would propose that we my motion proposes that we reduce that four point five. Two two million dollars. And then on the third line. The executive recommendations for four million there spend is been a little over two. And so my motion would reduce that to three million. You get the others would remain the same at executive recommendation. Okay thank you Mr chair so that's a motion the substitute motion on the floor and a second all right so we got discussion on nights seat number fifty one. Okay a seat number eighteen represented Wooten. Did it I have one question in the sector did understand you to say G. B. check in with the other fourteen department. Absent wooden I did not say that. I was asking for clarity of of this body if you have could you communicate or you will. You know after. Could you AS those agencies to go in and look at it we've got agency coming in here to mark this cut thirteen pages was seventy position only page. In addition to that they've got a hundred and seventy eight positions that are over two years Representative moon so I apologize. They're on discussion on the motion on the floor thank you and. Connect. Not not talking to the secretary I think I'm still on a Mr chairman. Yep go ahead you're recognized yeah I just wanna I got no problem with the motion I mean we're basically doing exact wrecked member obscene Jeanne makes a valid point that it be when I look at the appropriations drawn up they are just for operations and and get on with the process and these two changes we can live with their or just later but I just I I guess to answer your question secretary about what I would like to see at least is not just your agency because I think looking at your agency is just. A very total viewed about the effect information and that's why I continue to come back to I don't know whether I think it's not your office probably it's either the governor's office an independent evaluator to come in here and and give the legislature an overview of what the effective transformation is bent on all fourteen agencies because again I don't care if were going up four million dollars on what agencies if I'm going down six on another but that's what I think there's not a lot of certainty about and again I don't know maybe the governor's office wants to think about how they could answer that question but I know that would make a lot of people more comfortable with transformation in general is we had somebody give us the whole impact of what's really happened here rather than taking one agency in times and listen one up with this went down we don't know. All right thank you and senator DISMANG. Well imminent story point we're just discussing this question yet we're we're discussing the Representative Payton see substitute motion and I'm just trying to make sure I understand the outcome was there discussion of needing that additional preparation on those two separate line items or I mean I'm trying to there was I thought we talked about in the think there's been some questions asked over the course of the last hour and a half but but the answers when there's some discussion that they were going to be further utilizing the the card program yes that was is due date which we you know it's been utilized to two point one six historically there's going to be additional utilization. I am to understand me when will or we. Competition if I recall the the the answer that question because I was actually question I'd ask that they had said that it's going to be an increase or they're expecting increasing utilization of it of potentially as much as double which is why they're asking for the four million write in it but in that's potentially a good thing if I understand the process correctly but so we're going to cut it down. To three million three million even though they think they may double of which is a good thing. Which is a so out okay and I'm not sure about the V. D. I'm just trying to understand what is what we're what we're composition when we're we're cutting these down and are we are we actually fighting against something that could be positive by limiting the preparation in particular in these two line item so again or nine point I can ask the A presenters but I if there's any additional information may be the represent paid for by that be helpful. All right. Representative Payton the do you have anything further to add on your motion well Mister chair just like to point out that of putting the travel card at three million is over forty percent increase so. All right and. Senator hammer. Thank you Mr chair question about the substitute motion whether it's to the chair to represent Payton. Is this going to relieve the agency of addressing the issue of the personnel is they were originally asked did you back by November nineteenth if we passed a substitute motion. Service center at a sidebar discussion what was your question again I guess question is if we passed a substitute motion there won't be any reason for them to come back on November nineteenth and address what was a fair majority of the discussion around positions is that okay substitute motion passes then we're done with this section of the agenda for today and we wouldn't go to the underlying motion of delaying it told nineteen thanks for clarification. All right. Mr just so I have that's all the questions or discussion have I'm going to go back to Representative Payton here in a second but I do need further clarification from you on your motion I'm going withdraw my motion based on the answer that Representative hammer just got okay now. That motions withdrawn were back to the senator hindrance motion of delaying this till the nineteenth and have them come back Do you have any discussion on that any further discussion on that all right center Johnson you're recognized thank you Mr chairman I'd SportsCenter hundreds motion I think that I've been a little upset that we've had some significant issues come of this week and and this is pretty sparse room concerning how many people are on joint budget I just think we need we need to have more people here we know it selection week and for a lot of the reasons this is not enough folks here and I think that with all due respect madam secretary I think your department is so critical effects everything we do in state government I think it is important that we take a little bit finer tooth come to this it and I support the idea of this coming back up on the nineteenth regardless of whether we make this appropriation change or not I would have supported represented Peyton's motion but I do think that we need to have more members here before we go over the stuff again and and that I think it would give you the opportunity to get with the other agencies madam secretary and answer some of the questions that have already been brought up on it so I I do support the motion I think let's let's get through November third and we'll have a little bit clearer heads on the nineteenth thank you Mr all right. Thank you and we are narrowing down think we have one final point syndrome Dismang. Just make sure and I had sorry to take a phone call and so we're just delaying these two will be come better to minority And I'm as bows that's fine but I mean if we're looking for a bigger crowd. Man there's potential that we were not going to have a crowd based on our current trajectory so I would just. Make sure that were mindful of where we are in this process and the fact that all we're doing is setting the stage for the drafting the preparations which can always be changed or additional prohibiting A preparations to be made I'm again I'm not seeing. Thank you. Thank you senator the Representative Wooten. Hello six three a if I implied while ago that you have authority over the other agencies out in Maine that what I meant was. Do you can you and will you encourages them to look at every position that they currently have which would play along with what senator Hendren has said and what of senator Johnson say it. Representante she can't answer that at the moment we're in discussion on the motion. So. We'll we'll get back to answering questions after after we clear this motion. Senator. Engine. Well represent pains go withdraw his motion withdrawal mine too so I think because I think senator DISMANG and reversing Jean made valid points is we don't know what it's going to look like November the nineteenth it is an appropriation bill I think we FOR communicated to the agency and to the governor's office what we would like to see and I think we have other methods to making sure we see that so I would instead moved that we just to executive director. All right so we've got a motion and executive rack and a second. Any discussion. All right We've got an original motion now by Senator hundred on the floor of the executive wreck. Discussion on that motion senator Ballenger thanks to seek fifty five. Thank you Mr chair that yet I hate to at a more to this but I would say that I think that there is fairly broad support releases a market for represent Payton the motion and so I think that move does everything as far as Mrs Ford I realize that that may be something that they can't work out that we may have to change later but we can just like everything else so I'd like to revive represent Peyton's motion I hope you guys have written down somewhere because I don't have to sit in front of me. Okay so that's a substitute. To the now executive wreck and I read a second on that for further clarification in detail on on that motion. On page fifty what is. Two fifty eight. His motion was to reduce the recommendation of four point five as the requested I'm executive amount. Down to two million. by two minutes. I think was. I think it was to reduce it. Down to two million I would say there will not be a bad idea for a person Payton to give some clarification as to what that motion was. Okay. If you don't have a written down. Representative Payton. Could you give clarify yes Sir so on that one it was to reduce it by two and a half million which would leave it at two million okay I again. Page two fifty eight. There's a lot of different lines on that particular line item that you're you're reducing from. Four point five down to two million. I'm I'm here it's two fifty four is the the page. Two fifty four as the summary. Two fifty hours a summary of the overall but if you go to two fifty eight it has the details of what's in that it's ACT preparation. Mr mechanized question other the motion just just one second let me. So. Six senator Ballenger since it's your motion. On two fifty eight if you're reducing it down to two million. We need to know the details of what you're actually wanting to reduce in the detailed line item. Can I yield to represent Payton is already with through that. I'll get background imminent. Will have further further discussion on here. Senator Hendren. Yeah and again as I said when absent paid I don't have a big problem with that I just I got thrown off balance with senator DISMANG is common like and he's the CPA and I know he we can't ask staff but I guess that's center Dismang to explain because I know there are some programs that we actually save money by using the B. D. and I don't know about the travel card is is reducing this preparation and less utilization of this a good thing or a bad thing with regard total spending if senator DISMANG if I could get him to comment on that. Rights senator DISMANG. You have a comment on the banks of it but I mean that's my question but we're not at the point that we can ask questions and that's what I wasn't clear of either I mean I if I was hearing the testimony earlier this is something that's beneficial to the state A to be utilized but I said I'd with where we are I I don't know I don't know what we're accomplishing exactly Plaquemine a and I don't know what what what were where we're headed and I and I do. And I'm also trying to understand if we're going to drop cut about two million whatever it to your point what are we cutting by two million are we cutting salaries re cutting the external consulting contracts one point five men like what are we were we trying to. What we doing exactly for making that cut unless we're just wanting to make a blank cut and not really. Clear on whether a detail of trying to get down to well we did then what I would like to do this is where we're going to be is everybody's withdrawal motions will go back to represent Payton clearly he understands what he wants to do and he can give us the line by line in seven appropriation what he's planning to cut and why and whether it's beneficial or not beneficial because the rest of this I'm just I don't know enough about what we're trying to do. To make sense of of the motion. center Ballenger you good with a drawing your motion farm I'm completely happy with the reps and Payton make the motion that the question is you know at this point the on happened withdraw the motion is Senator handedness happy withdrawals motion give it to Payton or an explanation from represent pain of the exactly what he was working on doing either way I'm good with that so the if center headphones okay withdrawn his motion I'm I'm okay withdraw my motion if you're wanting to then give it to Payton to explain. Well I've already withdrawn at once I'll be glad withdraw all right withdrawing my motion with no motions on the table secretary venture would you be able to explain to us some of the questions you've been answer asking we have no motion currently on the table and Give us. I think senator DISMANG question was the on page two sixty with regards to the P. card. Is that a benefit to keep it higher can you give us some details on that. Yes I'm happy to it is a benefit because this money is coming in as a rebate each time a P. card issues throughout state government it comes back in to the office of state procurement and then goes out to the department where it was actually the expense was incurred so this is this is cash in its its cash coming into the state and then for the appropriation is just because we believe we're going to increase the utilization there are new E. procurement system of those P. cards. All right. I'm gonna go back now to Representative Payton. Thank you Mr chair can I ask a question of the sector. Madam sector is there's no motion on the okay so so when you say rebate rebate on what. Every time a credit card is used within merchant there there is a FE and it's given back to the state a percentage of that fee. Okay so we're only looking at the rebate portion off to spend on the credit cards yes Sir okay. Then I'm ready to make a motion Mister chair. Before you do that if if we can get a few more questions with regards to maybe E. B. D. as well Senator DISMANG. And this is this is have the same quick discussion on A. B. days this beneficial or detrimental just expending more money what when what tells a little bit about that program so we know what we're page two fifty eight two fifty. Yes this money would go back to either refunds or reimbursements as that that's another increase within if you look down to the level of detail and two fifty two fifty eight the other one is the one point five possibly on consultant contract this is for the employee benefits division which of which there has been some a lot of uh scrutiny over the the money coming in in the money going out where we currently are with that and so this just allows us to have that cash to be able to operate within the confines of that particular program so it is a cash appropriation. To clarify if we cut that then we're jeopardizing a lot of things that people in this room have been. Recognizing or we're we're limiting the ability to further their scrutiny yes center saying I would agree with that. Okay thank you thank you senator DISMANG. Does anyone else have a question for the agency before I go either I'm still by Mike still hot yes and go ahead with your question thank you Mr chair St page two fifty eight on the eve ET. The operating expense has been just under fifty thousand dollars and we're asking for eight hundred and fifty over a hundred and fifty. So if if we were to cut that by six hundred thousand dollars that still leave you five hundred percent increase available on that line. How would that restrict you. Representative I would a part of the process is there's a strict this is we work closely with particular program I'd have to get back to that program to see why they they moved that into the operating costs some of it had to do with how how they allocated between revenue coming in the cash revenue of that particular because it's a trust a lot of trust fund that we operate from we're very particular about money coming in and out of that but I'll have to look and see the level of detail on that so this is operating expense on the trust on the employee benefits division administration of it yes this is not money in or out of the trust this is the at the operating expense well part of the part of the what funds the administrative cost of this is the premium payment is is considered to be cash in the treasury service revenue coming in. Well when we listed is operating expense I would think it's commissions paid or something like that operating expenses the general cost of running the different that the department is self what against an. We call to moneys keeping all the lights on the software programs and all those kind of things thanks to technology cost as well. If I could ask you about the refunds and reimbursements line. Can you elaborate on that. Yes that is money that's actually going back to this is something appropriation that we may need in case there's some re funds back to the particular participants within the employee benefits the health care programs. Or to providers in case there's an underpayment that we need to pay them as well service store Klay you know the past year you're looking at a hundred eight thousand dollars I'm is there reason to expect it to. Go up. By six hundred percent. Well that we would just need that flexibility to be quite honest with budget to do they restrict flexibility and encourage them discipline that's why we're here but I'm I understand if the if if you're talking about this is a risk fund or something that. Well you just don't know the expenditure twelve and part of that is true the main part of the medical costs have skyrocketed this year and and a lot of different ways we've seen and leveling increase of medical code care costed means Norman eight to ten percent increase per year so that's one of the reasons that we're looking at we were flat for a couple of years and that kind of gave us a false sense of security but but we are seeing or medical costs increase motor thank you thank you Mr chair. Thank you Representative and. Senator Hickey. You're recognized. Hello yeah Christmas going to. We hang up the phone over there. Of yes Sir well whatever I push my but no there is two motions on the table and I was going to do a substitute motion for more it they're still way too many questions to be answered and I know senator Hendren had originally made a substitute motion that we wait to the nineteenth and I would like to put that motion back in place of the. Our members can get these questions answered this idea of what the savings have been is transformation this is not new for the last week or two weeks we have literally been asking these questions since we passed the budget so I think this is the appropriate time if those having been provided through all of our other committee meetings that this is a time where we need to to make sure that we're going to get that in there and get some commitments before we pass at the mill tear my motion would be that to go back to the. The exact motion that senator Hendren had earlier that will will November nineteenth that will get you to to make that motion after we finish this discussion among a recognize the motion just yet we've got a couple more in the queue I wanna make sure they have the ability to test the secretary any final questions before we get to motions thank you Sir okay the. Senator hammer. Thank you Mr chair on the A. B. D. those rebates that you're talking about like from the prescription drug manufacturers and the money that comes back in so as to help offset the cost of the program is that correct. Yes and on the other rebates that are not included in the A. B. D. with that money comes back does it offset the cost of that respective agency or to the re. Invest that back into their agency or how's that and is that part of transformation savings. You're firing to the P. card yes rebate yes it does go back to the department we're for the expenses incurred. As far as following how that money is spent it's just covered in that departments appropriation level then. Correct. Okay and. Semi related you mention external a consulting contracts awhile ago where where those accounted for and who or what are those external consulting contracts that you're referring to we do not currently have any external consulting contracts within our department but we have a pro but in this or appropriations to cover those. Correct so that's what came over from the DFA budget I believe they have a line item for consulting contracts and that was the portion that that came over to our department okay so the conversation was center Hendren while ago about hiring somebody to look at this is that where that would come out of a reset two totally different conversations if that were direction together it would have to come out of that line item so we would have to find funding savings somewhere else to fund that but you're not in negotiations with any external consulting companies now absolutely not okay alright thank you Mr at thank you senator and everybody else is cleared out so senator Hickey you are. Yes Sir in is the just the same as it was before from senator Hendren is that we allow the members to get with the secretary and to get and the staff and get their questions between now and the nineteenth have agency to come back and let's listen to this budget again on the nineteenth to make sure we will have all of our questions answered and that's proper motion. I have a second I have died discussion on the motion center Hendren. Yeah I I'm fine with the motion I think especially since we started this way but I guess what I'd like to comment on is having. Done these the task forces and consultants and all that stuff the question that we're trying to get to here is a very difficult complicated. Question and I do think if we really wanted answered right we're going to have to engage somebody to do that now I don't know whether we need to ask BLR to do that on behalf of the US or whether we need to ask the governor's office or transformation or somebody but I think that we're as we heard earlier while this is going to delay until the nineteenth we're not going to have the answers that many of us are wanting on the nineteenth. What I hope we might be able to do is have an overview with some of the general concepts and then maybe some ideas about how we can get those answers whether it is engaging in a consultant with the three month study to give us those are what. But I think all of us want the same questions answered but I think we're on realistic think we're gonna get fourteen agencies to give us all that stuff in a in a accurate format by the nineteenth. Thank you senator seat number. Measures in eighty two. Centers sample I believe you're recognized thank you Mr chair of. We had a price Waterhouse. A. Study done on this. And Sir one I can't would go back ribs in spending more money go back and revisit this price Waterhouse study and take some the recommendation that they made I think I still have a copy of. Testers suggestion. Thank you thank you. Seeing no other discussion on the motion all in favor I. Any opposed nay. Motion passes we'll see you back on the nineteenth for that one we do have an audit finding on the next Arkansas geographic information systems We have. Audits make their way to the table. The last page on your agenda there. It would take a seat and. State your name for the record you're recognized your daughter report. hit your green button. Hello I'm Joe Biden Berg I work for legislative audit have for thirty two years. And we have funding. In the Arkansas geographic information systems office. Funny so is the DFA financial management get regulation. Requires state agencies to properly record the amount due for delivery of goods and services and promptly collect cans receive. Further financial management guy regulations requires. Agencies using the DFA office of accounting services bureau. To report transaction on a real time basis to be entered into asus. Accounts receivable related revenues total twenty two thousand seven hundred thirty two dollars and eighty one thousand six hundred fifteen dollars the should have been recorded in fiscal years two thousand eighteen seventeen respectively were not reported until the receivables were collected on March third two thousand nineteen. On any question. All right I don't think we have any questions thank you for that report. Mr Penman if you would. Give us the overview for. Geographic systems are geographic information yes Sir thank you Mr chair for geographic information systems this department procreation summary is on page two twenty one. All you're going there this office is responsible for coordinating development and maintenance of geographic information systems data throughout the state and to reduce duplication of effort day coordinate with all levels of government private and nonprofit sectors. There are two appropriations for this agency. The first one has changed levels will go through both of them. They're department is asking for two point five seven million for FY twenty two in FY twenty three for two point five seven million for FY twenty to two point five nine million for FY twenty three this is a three hundred seventy thousand dollar increase an appropriation over there twenty one authorized. Our first appropriation starting on page two twenty two this is geo storm framework. This is funded by the geographic information systems fund which consists of funds approved by the General Assembly carry for Turner operations appropriation which is on the next page federal funds and any other funds allowable by law. And this one is going to is used to carry out the duties responsibilities and authority of their systems board and create their data infrastructure. Create and maintain. The level of appropriation is at four twenty one authorized the agencies requesting appropriation in the amount of one point two million for each year the biennium which includes an increase of three hundred fifty thousand dollars each year which the age is requesting this to allow their aired aerial imagery procurement for one third of the state each fiscal year which will ensure that no data is more than three years old at a time this is included in the agency's bi annual I. T. plan and the executive recommendation provides for the agency request. On page two twenty four this is the agency's operations appropriation. It is funded by general revenue. And provide for the operations of the office. The agency is requesting appropriation in the amount of one point three seven million in FY twenty two and one point three eight million for FY twenty three and the agency is requesting general revenue funding in the amount of one point two eight million for FY twenty two and FY twenty three. Salary matter judgments made in the current biennium are requested to continue into the next biennium. The executive recommendation provides for the agency request long with time changes for three positions in upgrades for one position those being personnel but the including increase of ninety eight hundred dollars regular salaries and twenty two hundred dollars in personal services matching appropriation for each year of the biennium. And the chair that concludes my presentation for geographic information systems. Thank you we've got a question this Representative makes I believe it is yes Sir thank you recognized my question is for agency okay We've got them come into the table. The manager helped entity the visit with director Johnson here. You would state your name for the record and then. Afternoon shall be Johnson director the geographic information systems office. Thank you a question I have is the the this new aerial survey for three hundred fifty thousand dollar caught my attention can you. I'm assuming since this is new we haven't been doing this in the past so the something new they were doing house of that are going to be obtain can you kind of walk us through the the the benefits to the citizens sure it's actually not something new it's something that we the accomplished over the years and our first state wide mission we did in two thousand one we repeated that again in two thousand six in one for a long stretch repeated again and twenty seventeen each of the prior missions that we've done we've done on a statewide basis and they were done using one time funding. What we're asking to do now is try to put that program in place so that we do it on a more regular cycle and the rationale behind the three years is to try to time those so that it coincides with the county assessor reprisal cycle for ad valorem real estate by having that new member jury and allows those county level folks to identify new construction improvements in and also sister local nine one one systems with the identifying mapping new roads new addresses and so forth our process in our approach would be of course to go out to the market place and identify the most of a cost efficient way of acquiring that information and then and do that procurement that have it be able to be on a rolling basis or on the state wide that answers your question yeah there is is a satellite airplane injury at this point in time and still more effective in the industry to do it with aircraft as opposed to satellite and the reason is because of weather on a day like today when the satellite rotations come across the state you might not have a cloud free day but two days from now you might have a club three day in the satellites not over us with aircraft you can control that five plan more effectively with aircraft still. last question of talking Mr chairman on your. Appropriation on this the same one you've got the your original budget was eight hundred fifty thousand you've added the three hundred fifty thousand to get to the one point two million dollar request but out of the eight hundred fifty thousand last year you only spent two thirty so only about a third roughly would you be okay if we drop that one point two million dollars down the you know one million maybe bring in a little more in line with what you're spending is man with that still give you comfort level them well I'll just let me first you some background and that and that might help answer your question historically we've set that appropriation at a at a higher level because we've used that particular mechanism as pastor for other projects and I am predictable nature of those other projects is why you see a lower figure in that actual so for example in that actual last year or last if what he's me we were using that for tax parcel mapping project in of a county and then out of the blue sky fill a flood and we need to procure for them injury and so we were quickly rushing to procure that flood damage or any emergency and this is our mechanism will be able to do that and so that accounted for that the other expense we would love to be able to keep it at that level in the event that we ever have those emergencies like that the pop up okay I'm comfortable with that it it sounds like it's not a standard we we spent two fifty continuous second beak way up on your way down another year so I'm good with that thank you thank you Mr thank you Representative by Representative house. If you can hear us you're recognized. Thank you Mr chairman thank shall be up. You're going to be drawing some a redistricting reapportionment maps starting. January maybe even before is that correct. What yes Sir we we won't do that for all levels of government but we will certainly play a support role for cities of review would be doing their wards we would support to counties that would county Election Commission to be doing there JP districts and then of course the school boards and the school board sounds where they would have to redo all school boards question of the General Assembly does the congressional districts and then the board of apportionment would do the state house and Senate and so we would play it technical support road to those entities and help them with the data and assist but we wouldn't be doing the actual drawing our sales on those. The the my question is this I know we're talking about next fiscal year's budget in this meeting do you have you're going to have to tap into a lot of sources of information that you may not have had to use in the past racial ethnic. Data H. voting populations and things like that courts have been addressing over the past ten years in making these issues in the federal courts in particular do you have enough resources in this current year's budget to meet all of your anticipated requirements or will this legislature need to push you up this fiscal year to meet those expenses. So that's a great question I present house appreciate that we have a been working on preparation for the census for the last five years and a lot of that data that you referred to is collected through the senses process and so we've been working on that already and we feel like we're in a position we where we won't need to process we your planning ahead for some procurement of some software we have made a request to the governor's office to support that with the rainy day funding and that does just the acquire that software and then you might note in our budget that are training and our training dollars there will be spending some time training on that particular software and so that's part of the explanation for our training budget in this cycle. That was the answer I was expecting to hear it but I want to the rest of the members to know how much work you all have been doing to get ready for reapportionment and in to perform this function it's it's critical to all hundred thirty five members was that. Federal della galley delegation so thank you very much for your for siting your hard work companies thank you Mr chairman. Thank you Representative and thank you for the your diligence and doing that work Senator hammer you're recognized thank you Mr chair on the aerial program you're talking about while ago is that going to relieve the county assessor's from having to drive around the county will get to the point that they can do it all from there dash to levy eight that demand on them our our speculated it may assist them some but I think you in there rulebase that's the the in their promulgated rules or or maybe it might be actually and statute that they still have to put eyes on and and probably the best way to explain that is that from Merrill injury you can tell there's building there but you don't know if it's a shopper house and so they would still need to the Mike that local visit but it tells them foremost that there's new construction their insulin they know they have to make that visit if they don't show something on the books that was already there hopefully that helps answer your question and on the is this going to get as detailed to where you can determined partials or is it just going to be physical structures. With the imagery is allows us to map from those of physical features that you can see in the image Yuri so for example road streams railroads power lines it's anything that you can see in the image or in so the up we we find every year in that particular industry that the just when we think that my the final break their own quality it gets it gets better but the the last mission the we had done was a one foot resolution imagery and that's on par with what you would see on Google maps for example. Okay thank you Mr. Thank you senator that is all the questions. In the queue so thank you have got a. Motion executive wrecked. Second. All in favor I. Any opposed motion passes. All right. Mr bin or back you. Thank you Mr chair our next appropriation going to visit this is a building authority of it division they're appropriation summary is on page two twenty seven. This agency is responsible for obtaining sites for state agencies authorizing the leasing a property for and by state agencies and assisting state agencies in the construction of public buildings. Looking at their twenty one authorized the total appropriations forty eight point seven million their requests for FY twenty two and twenty three or sixty two point seven million which is approximately a fourteen million in a fourteen million increase an appropriation. There are nine total appropriations there are three with change levels will go through all of them. Our first appropriation is on page two twenty nine this is their justice and building construction fund it's a cash fund that provides for debt service obligations associated with construction and renovation of the justice building in this cash money as provided by court costs receipts transferred from state ministration of justice fund to the justice building construction fund. And the agency notes the expenditure of appropriation is contingent upon available funding. The agency is requesting appropriation the amounts of fifteen point two million for each year the biennium. Which includes the following changes. They're asking to reallocate their current total of one point two million. From operating expenses professional fees and debit services dressing to reallocate all of those to the construction commitment line item. And they're also asking for an additional increase of fourteen million an appropriation. And I construction line item to allow for new construction and renovation projects at the justice building that will be financed through a new bond issue any second recommendation provides for the agency request. On two thirty one this is the building authority state operations fund this is funded out of general revenue it provides for the operation of the building authority division which include administration leasing architectural construction finance engineering building maintenance. The agency is requesting appropriation the amount of two point two million for FY twenty two and twenty three and general revenue funding in the amount of two point one million for FY twenty two in FY twenty three. The agency requests includes the following in the request asking for an increase of a hundred and five thousand in general revenue funding each year to restore a five percent reduction from FY twenty one. The executor commission provides free agency request an appropriation and along with six position changes and also provides for general revenue funding in the amount of two million and FY twenty two and two million FY twenty three. On page two thirty three this is the building maintenance appropriation this is paid out of the building authority division maintenance fund which is funded from rental income and reimbursement from the division building authority property buildings. With a salary matching adjustments made in the current biennium are requested to continue in the present into the next biennium and the agencies requesting to continue appropriation the amounts of twenty one point one million for both years the executive recommendation provides for the to require a request and thirteen position reclassification they'll be covered in personnel. On page two thirty five this is acquisition and maintenance this is also paid out of the real estate fund. A. This is for the acquisition operation of additional building for state occupancy. Which expenditures will be offset by income from the opposition from the operation sorry of properties acquired the age is requesting to continue appropriation any amount of four point three million for each year and executive recommendation provides for the agency request. On two thirty seven this is a justice building operations. This appropriation provides for operations of the justice building with funding provided under special language provision for a transfer from central services to building authorities maintenance fund. The salary imagine judgments made the current biennium are requested to continue into the next biennium and the agency is requesting to continue the appropriation in the amount of seven hundred and forty thousand each year the executive committee recommendation provides for the agency request and FOR to position change that will be covering personnel. Next is justice building maintenance which provides for maintenance of the justice building and with is funded by court costs receipts transferred from administration of justice fund to be used exclusively for maintenance of the justice building. The agency's request to continue appropriation any amount of four hundred thousand for each year the biennium and the executive recommendation provides for the agency request. This on page two forty one we have critical maintenance appropriation this is paid for out of their division maintenance fund which is used for critical maintenance of their. Divisions owned or operated buildings which is derived from and rental income paid by state agency housed in building authority operated buildings. The agency request to continue appropriation in the amount of five million dollars each year of the biennium and the executive recommendation provides for the agency request. Next is this be sustainable building design revolving loan program which is paid for out of the sustainable building design revolving loan fund the purpose of this appropriation is to provide loans to state agencies first to sustainable building design program. And funding for this appropriation is to funds transferred from the general improvement fund which would now be performance and performance enhancement fund federal grants and loan repayments from state agencies. Davis is requested to continue their appropriation the amount of ten point seven million dollars each year and the second recommendation provides for the agency request. Next we have the cash in state treasury appropriation this is out of their cash fund. This appropriations used for building improvements such as asbestos abatement and funding comes from a settlement transfer from from the attorney general's office and the agency notes the expenditure of appropriation is a contingent upon available funding. The agency request is for appropriation the amounts of two point eight million each year the biennium which include that agencies asking for a decrease of a hundred sixty eight thousand appropriation each year to bring it closer to the anticipated fund balance can you check the recommendation provides for the agency request. Sure the conclude my presentation for building authority division thank you. The. Representative mix. Your question for the agency the staff may be able to answer this I don't know if Mister Anderson the on a page two thirty one the building authority state operations part of their request is an increase of a hundred five thousand in general revenue to restore five percent reduction do we know what that five percent reduction is that something that the General Assembly did for cost savings as something they did is it proper for lighted dean and any idea what the back stories on that list yes Sir chairman good. yes Sir that's that's the reduction in the revenue stabilization act that was the first official general revenue forecast reduced. Okay so as far as related then in the amount of general revenue they will get will be reflected in the new or S. say that is will be released the end of the session right right okay all right thanks for. Thank you. Senator hammer. Thank you Mr cash agency question please important for second hand AMC. Come to the table. You would state your name for the record in. And label director division of building authority thank you Senator you're recognized thank you Mr chair and I'm trying to. What I'd like to know an inmate is a combination answer between you and secretary the do you oversee the building that we've moved all the state agencies into out there by the river. Is that under building authority yes Sir that's and building that we are managing now. Can you produce for me a summary of all the agencies that have moved out of buildings to that one and what the net impact was as far as cost savings or increased cost of the buildings that we've left especially if we own the building in the clear is a state and we moved them out a it out there to the river. Or do you the deal have a summary report of that. Yes Sir we've we've done it's been kind of a jigsaw puzzle as you can imagine that yes Sir we've kind of put those in numbers and reports together and so we do have something already together in the secretary's office that we can get to you okay. And to that point then the the building maintenance. Actual which twelve million I'm and I'm looking out for page two twenty seven and staff can help me if I'm on the wrong page but. Building maintenance actual was twelve million. But the budget request is twenty one million. Can you help me understand why such a significant increase from what actual was to what budget request is. Okay and. The building maintenance fund because we've had added a lot there's been some more debt service that's been added that actually is a part of the building maintenance fund now because we collect those repayments for as rent revenues for reimbursable is for additional bond issues that have been done so during this past two fiscal years we've added a number of additional Bond and there's been We're working we're collecting from entities of revenues to pay back the bonds that were as soul to be able to make improvements and to purchase properties so we have several that millions of dollars associated with that as well as the increase in. Adding a whole nother building was was also part of that with the commerce building so our overall are building portfolio has increased by about five hundred thousand square feet and all those revenues associated with us managing collecting revenues reimburse bills are all showing up in that building maintenance line. Okay so when can I get a split out of what the debt services from the actual maintenance and. DO are the agency's painting it that bond debt or who who's responsible for that bond it we at the red the red revenues that we collect it that is when the variables associated with the rest of the rental rate that we arrive act for their lease so when we collect those rents from those agencies and includes the the R. repayment of the debt service through the red revenue there are several entities that we are paying the bond at four and we build them for that cost and those are buildings that we are not managing such as department here to just facility department communications in a facility we have several buildings like that they were not actually managing and collecting rent on but we are collecting on the and revenue so that we can repay the debt because it it all works to the miscellaneous there is a the bonding has to go through our agency so we're kind of the middle man we are the sub lessor to that to the occupant of the building okay then the last question would be are there agencies that are now paying rent. That were not paying rent before they were required to requested to move to a new location. Not that I'm aware of I mean we did have a lot of transfers as you mentioned that came from one building to the other but they were already paying rent are there may be some divisions within departments that maybe weren't paying their rent directly work with the lease but maybe they were allocations that were being done through their department that was what that was covering that but secretary pressure may be able to answer that better than I can I was just going to add to your comment earlier if if an entity on their own building that they remained in it they were asked to move. Okay. All right if I could on the building inside I just like to get a split out of what the true maintenance cost is versus what the bond debt is if both third because I understood you say that in the twenty one million both are in building maintenance right Sir okay I'd like to get a split out of that if you would please thank you Mr. Thank the details on that are on page two thirty four. senator Johnson. You're recognized thank you Mr chairman a. Ms Leigh lower secretary Fisher either one of you can answer this of. On page two twenty nine it refers to additional increase of fourteen million in construction appropriations for new construction renovation projects to the justice building that we financed through a new bond issue of is that to increase the square footage will there be any size building increase within that. And the question is is there any. Entity that is in the justice building now were scheduled to move there that is not either spring quarter court of appeals FOR of their staff. Yes Sir that is today to expand and renovate the existing facilities so there will be an additional wing that will be added that will accommodate the administrative adjust the mystery the justice court of appeals and there are two groups that will actually go on there it's ministration automated court systems who are currently housed at or not who was capitol building because they cannot accommodate them at the justice building so the automated court system will actually make that re location when that expansion is done so it will only be the and the court of appeals the Supreme Court and they're and they're I two grade the automated court system that will be occupying space in the building. No other outside entities are planned to come in okay it at a when the justice building was first constructed the attorney general's office was located within the and I guess at this time the AG is the only constitutional office that is not house on the capitol grounds is that still correct I guess best of my knowledge I think you're right and center and it this then they're in the tower building or the Catholic prying tower downtown. Which is not a state owned building which is it just seems all a little bit and and I member when it when I went down there is a long time ago certainly generate ledge was not there when that decision was made but I'm just curious has any thought been given to perhaps housing all the constitutional officers on the capitol grounds it's as you well know that's not the greatest parking location on earth when you go down to the AG's office just has that been consider any way or would it be a would it be physically possible I know this is a bonded project and how all that works but would be physically possible to to re locate the AG's office to the justice building or organization or somewhere else on the cap program that is not in the plan for this expansion and renovation it's already and those to those plans are actually very near completion to be ready to be bid probably next month so the attorney general's office is not included in that design course the attorney general's office and is the one who negotiate sand and locates of their facilities so it's not really something that falls under building authority at this time but I do know that over the years they have considered how they can but get back closer to the campus that I don't know of any plans right now for them to do that. A with it from my one just quick follow up Mr chair of the building or capitol Avenue we're ADC was located I can't remember the name but channelers Who is what state agencies are still in that building okay the administrative office of the courts that I was management mentioning their automated court system is in there they were in that building had been in the building today expanded within that building when the movement happen with economic development an act of relocating now the department of labor in licensing are have done their consolidation of their department in that building and then we still have that the state library in the building but we have been able to win her percent back fill the building with those three locations that happened with commerce on temporarily the department at has an office in there whether building here on the capitol mall number three capital mall is being renovated on to the buildings at a high percent back feel that the largest tenant now it's still state librarian department of labor and licensing okay so with for a. When all this shuffle happens in in the new justice building additions done and and three captain walls completed the the cap levy billing would still be full is that correct well the court automation system under Mister of office the courts will be relocating to the expanded wing for the justice building so we will have some space that will come up in in that building at that time that we will work diligently to refill it okay thank you very much thank you Mr thank you senator Representative Cavenaugh I believe. Thank you Mr chair recognized my questions on on page two thirty four which is the building maintenance for murder by Senator hammer was asking that minds more specific in your operating expenses you have an actual spend the seven million. You're asking for thirteen point six million appropriation at the six point six million dollar increase. Why are we needed such an increase above actual spending. Hey you're looking at the operating expense and the interview James. Early on two seventy five sorry two thirty four. Building authority. Correct building maintenance or if I see said the numbers have as I was mentioning have changed quite a bit with we've added a whole nother building now that we operate the commerce building now we took on additional and and obviously a lot of additional cost associate with that we also had a lot of movement and Operating costs are changing with the renovations that we've been doing so I would have to look to see because obviously that nineteen to twenty current budget is already at the thirteen so that did represent changes that did occur with some additional buildings that have come on line that we taking responsibility for on debt service and so I'm not your debt service is a question I will ask you NAAQS I'm asking you about operating expenses it's for the additional buildings that have come on line with our operations of. Of with the increase for transformation and Other agencies purchasing buildings. Okay clarify what you mean by expenses and transformation. That the changes that we've had with transformation I re locating and moving thanks we also have quite a bit of work that goes along with with a doing relocating agencies into buildings I will have to like I said the number that you're comparing it to a was the prior fiscal year and this was a projected number for operations for this year which takes on additional facilities but I will try to get you a better answer as to why that doubled almost doubled since last fiscal year. And the other question was you're speaking about your debt service so your debt service is three point two and you're going to increase it by one point seven million so you don't have additional debt service of one point seven million we did yes ma'am we did when we closed on the commerce building that was done with the bond issue and so we do have that additional debt now thank you. Thank you Representative Wooten. Please thank you Mr chairman of direct your attention to page two thirty four again. And over time you show six hundred forty actual and you're requesting forty thousand Jack only in enquiries means an increase on paper he or but. What was six hundred and forty and then jump to forty thousand. From the that's on positions. That is just put in we used to have we do have a lot of overtime that has that happens with our building staff who were on call twenty four seven and that number that is been plugged in was actually and number that we've used in the past years add a cover over time for our building staff who like I said are on call twenty four seven. Page two missed if I may Mister chairman page two six. Shows. Actual two hundred sixteen thousand. And shows four point three oh five four point three million are you anticipating buying a building. And the actual expenses that we had in the prior fiscal year was when we purchased the capitol place property that's just across the street here on Markham street so we did and demolishes buildings and a clean up a lot so that's why there was an actual expense for that work that was done in the prior fiscal year and but because that is a vacant lot there is a possibility in the future the state might choose to do something with that so we do have a little bit of funding that is still available and that fund so that we've we've budgeted to be able to for appropriation for the funding that we have we do not have any plans right now but there is they can property across the street from the capitol that could certainly be a as used to someone in the future. Thank you Mr chairman. Of senator. Eaves. Number fifty three. Senate where this question for Mr believe if he still on here. See if we can get him up there. Hey Jake a question on page to thirty one to thirty two on the building authority state operations. What after the made the request for the increase of a hundred five thousand on the general revenue that wasn't put on that line item but there was an excess funding further down there is is that just so they have an opportunity to bring that out of a different bucket like a one time funding from something else besides just general revenues that wise change like the. So I'm looking on page two thirty two this is the building authority state operations miscellaneous agencies fund correct. And you're looking at the two point one. with the difference between the agency in the executive rack correct but then there's excess funding down there a line item for further down to get them to the total. Make the rebels almost equivalent. So this did they had requested additional general revenue and and what you're seeing there is the executive recommendation at this time is not to provide the funding the additional then read me they requested and only to provide the appropriation in the event those general revenues are available. This is consistent throughout all the budget manuals and what it really is is a reflection of the uncertainty that we have going into the biennium and when we were putting together the budget manuals we really couldn't say whose general revenues requests we could afford to support and whose request we would have to turn down and the reality is that we won't really be able to answer that until we present the governor's balanced budget which will do here in a couple weeks so that's why it shows that way that's not to say that the executive doesn't necessarily support the request it's just a really a reflection of some limited budget circumstances that were faced with going into by any okay that and that's what I thought but then it gets when you get down to the bottom of the next to last line with the excess funding gets some almost to their totals where the. Executive agency on Wilson's of it actually doesn't exactly the same so we're is that funding coming from that down there well right now it's not coming from anywhere what you're seeing there that number that hundred and thirty four thousand seven thirty nine is excess appropriation now is we granted this request and we provide the additional funding through the balanced budget then that hundred thirty four thousand seven hundred thirty nine would come from general revenue okay but it really just race to be seen how we structure that within the bounds okay that's one one make sure thank you thank you Mr chair. Thank you senator hammer. Thank you and this is probably questions speaks to your overall plan as far as. management of the facilities that the state owns the do you have an actuary the chill consult with when determining whether to purchase building or not or tell me about the interaction of the agency as far as your decisions. to acquire property and to move agencies. Are we do not use an actuary for that We and we haven't bought a lot of buildings that until recently there's just been some changes a lot of what's going on its three other departments who are trying to meet their needs and rather than continuing to rent and some cases they're choosing to on there and facilities so It's really because of the role that we play and the bonding situation there development finance authority development finance authority is really one that assesses whether it is a and a good opportunity for the state to acquire facilities based on the the bonding rates and and whatnot so we are a part of that process because that's with the the the bonding authority that works through from development finance authority to our agency as call the state facilities acquisition act so it's really a combination of development finance authority on that the agency that wishes are department the wishes to bop facility our property and then our and then our division I we all work together on it but it's really the department that has the need is making that assessment of the best use of their money to to read verses I own and operate. Okay can I get a list of the buildings that we currently own and the ones that we agencies that rant could I could get the comprehensive list please. Of the ones that they agencies lease. Well persons I'd like what I'd like to see is a list. Of the buildings we own and what agencies occupied then okay and which buildings we rent or lease and which agencies occupy them. Okay that state wide please. Okay that had to be about five today just the next two three weeks if you could give it to me please okay because the police was that's where leases obviously commend so there's about twelve hundred that is. So that's why I'm curious if you wanted to see our our database of all leases and then our our short list of buildings that are and we can certainly provide you best I just wanted you realize that when you talk about statewide leasing it's gonna be okay pretty large list but the what will have off sidebar conversation thank you Mr. Thank you and. F. finishes up questions for this Thanks director yes Sir and need a motion. Got a motion is active reckon a second any discussion on the motion on favor I. Imposed motion passes. Mister chairman finishes out here. Yes Sir thank you Mr chair our final agency today is on department summaries on page two forty eight this is the division of information systems. This agency is responsible for for before providing information technology services to the state government. There are two total appropriations for the agency the twenty one authorized levels a hundred and five million and their request for FY twenty two and twenty three is a hundred and nineteen million. Under nineteen point eight versus a hundred and five point three we have a fourteen and a half million appropriation increase. And I'll go through the appropriations only one has changed levels that will start on page two forty nine this is the operations appropriation. This appropriation is funded by the division of information systems revolving fund this comes from nonrevenue receipts derived from services provided to various agencies of the federal state city and county governments. And provides for information technology services to state government. Agencies is cresting appropriation in the amount of a hundred and sixteen point three million for both years the biennium and the agency request contains a transfer of positions and appropriations there's a total a transfer of a total of seven positions and related appropriation to DTS ES administrative services and a transfer of one position and with associate appropriation to DTS ES office of the secretary. Agencies requesting an appropriation an increase in our operating expenses line item of two million dollars each year they're also asking for an increase in their capital outlay which is thirteen point one million over the or twenty one authorized level would go from five and a half million to eighteen point six million. To ensure sufficient appropriation to respond to the needs of customers and to supply critical equipment and upgrades the executive recommendation provides for the agency request along with a hundred one title changes in one reclassification that will be handled in personnel. On page two fifty one we have the next appropriation this is a Quitman acquisition. This appropriation is used for major equipment acquisition or information technology improvements as stated in Arkansas code. And this also uses on appropriation authorized to their operations appropriation for purchase of equipment. Agencies requesting to continue preparation in the amounts of three and a half million for each year the biennium and exactly recommendation provides for the agency request sure the conclude my presentation on division of information systems. Thank you and. Seat number. Representative Cavenaugh you're recognized. Thank you Mr chair mine is going to be on page two fifty. You have a request for capital outlay of eighteen point six million dollars. He actually only spent a hundred sixty seven thousand. That's an increase of almost eighteen and a half million dollars do we know why we need an additional eighteen and a half million dollars. Yes Sam purpose chief of staff I have worked in this area of department of information systems for a number of years one looking at their rates and how they set their rates and how they allocate their cost and their equipment cost. As with a look at this budget what we wanted to do was a line with their actual cost or their capital outlay cost so it's more transparent on what they're actually spending money on and one of the things that they are they are buying equipment but they're borrowing money to buy the equipment so I don't really see that come up in their budget because it flows through an an operating basically operating expense instead of a capital outlay expense so this will better align with their actually trying to accomplish and be more transparent as we move forward and also helps as we discuss this issue with federal regulators that come in and review how we set our rates to ensure that we're not charging a federal program more than we're charging a state program and that's that's the reason for the increase that they are going to have that much increasing capital outlay. So if you're saying that this was actually be an expense doubt to another expense line item is that what you're saying well we're just never Mr having to start paying back this the lone this next fiscal year. Okay. A part of this fiscal year two okay and so who did they all that money to who would I bar on the money from FOR the money from the state it's us out economic development. At five. Sorry is at fault so were they getting alone is it not reflected this debt payment or anywhere in there. Our years no they they did not kind of set it up that way but that's how we're trying to accomplish that is to make sure that there's more little bit more transparent so they're going to pay back eighteen million dollars a year to eight. To economic development. It depends on whether funding becomes available some of it is that the long from at for is fifteen million dollars they have already purchased approximately six million dollars of that they were going to start paying back. If we as we move forward if we can make sure we consists of some secure some funding available because with member this funding gets passed on to different state agencies so we have to be very diligent about how we create a the infrastructure increases and so we don't and adversely impact other P. other departments budgets unnecessarily during the biennium so it's a very much a timing issue they were looking for a different funding mechanisms in order to help us fund this effort and we're hoping to do it because we need the investment in our infrastructure so you also. Economic development fifteen million dollars not quite yet we we we of right now we've expense six million dollars okay at five but you're asking for eighteen point six million and you only six million. Yes because the overall cost of the project is much higher than just the six million dollars how much of that project it depends on how much funding we get available to do that because we'll have to do it in stages what do you project the final cost to be for the project doesn't matter if you get the funding today or tomorrow or the next day what do you expect that final project cost we we are currently getting some of those numbers pull together. But we we anticipate is is it's going to be significant. Okay I'd like to know that number significant can mean anything in this world so I'd like to know that number place also I'd like to follow up on line number. Me see A so you've got data processing services one point two eight million was actual Spender asking for eight point four million that's an increase of seven point one five eight what is data processing services that you're paying for and why do you need the increase. It is is basically the increase to operate within the department of information systems that's what they're doing once again with the department had previously done for a number of years is that they would not have their cost the lined up with in these different what we call commitment items and so with this effort what we're trying to do is realign those costs within the commitment items the other thing that they had occurred is they're they're appropriation had an increase in the number of years and so really the cost of technology has increased and so they're constantly trying to re adjust and maybe hold invoices or help doing those kind of things payments we no longer wanted to do that we wanted to have a clear look at what they're operations are in and how we need to line those costs within their appropriate commitment item so we can do a better job with our financial reporting so are you saying that when they actually submit their request in their budgets in prior years that they didn't disclose all the information all the expenses that they were in curry well one of the things that they would do is in I think secretary fat your references earlier is I have a lot of and budgeted are budgeted positions and so with what they would do every now and then they would come in second we got and budget all these positions because we've got to go pay this this invoice and so that would that would require us to move money from two nine basically salary down the operating and so as I became aware of this is this this is the methodology what I wanted to do was really a line it with the cost that the anticipated costs of the department. Okay that's fine your realign expenses but you're actually getting the increase on this so that's why I'm trying to figure out is if you're if you're saying that they actually show this but in a different line item which is that what you're saying is I move stuff around so would end up in operating expenses. But you still have an increase a large increase yes and it's and and and it's necessary in order to modernize the infrastructure within the department. Once again I request that you give me that information on that what you project that project costs to be okay will do thank you. Thank you Representative G. do you happen to have any rough estimate on what the the total project might be over and how many years are we looking at stretching this out over. We have had some work done in the past on the this is the data centre optimization that we're talking about that has been discussed for a couple of years that's the capital outlay that you're talking yes and and we've had pricing everywhere from thirty million two hundred and twenty million ninety million it depends on how it's built as the governor said you know some of the pricing we've got spin the Cadillac and maybe we want a good solid Chevy so it so it's getting. It's it's working out how we do that over how many years we don't really have an answer to that yet because we don't have funding for it so it it's something that that needs to be done especially with the cyber security risk and the enhanced risk with the pandemic however we we don't have a clear answer at this point we just wanted an appropriation that if we were able to secure funding we could keep moving forward with a it will be a several year project and and where where do you anticipate the possibility of securing funding from. We have had a proposal to the carriers act steering committee four thirty three or thirty four million it has not moved forward yet is it right now it's on hold but this would be ineligible expense for it right other states have used cares act funding to shore up their cyber security needs there's really been an increased attacks all over the nation due to due to the pandemic it as we've seen here in the state okay. Representative Meeks you're recognized thank you Mr chairman and and just to follow up the this is the data optimization obviously that would be talking about and and part of the challenger dollar facing is we want state agencies to come in and utilize this effort to try to consolidate save money but again we don't know how many state agencies might be. Convinced that this is the best option form so that I know that still another another question the question the that I had not fully support what's going on with this on page two forty nine it says that you have one hundred and one title changes to agency personnel can you kind of explain why what that is. These are just. I apologize represent makes these are just title changes to due to the department of transportation sure services the I. S. just to bring it in the division just to change it that way so straight name change or not talking additional dollars or expense or anything like that just the administrative just administrative change at that thank you things from. Right Representative written. You have all the page two fifty showing a two million dollar increase in your operating expense. This rule of seven point three and now you're asking for nine point two. Yes we are at it has to do with some increase we've we've added some capacity within either the state network the K. twelve network so we have had additional operating costs because as as you think of what DO DIS does it's it's not only supports state government within the state network but it also supports the K. twelve network. In cities and counties as well and so some of that you know that those costs are just those network cost because we're upgrading that system isn't special we've seen a lot with remote learning as well. And professional fees seventy two thousand actual increased to five hundred and seventy five thousand. I'm gonna tell you Representative Wooten once again the Representative Cavenaugh is concerned we were really wanted that they have some third party contractors that they deal with and so they have so but they run that through their operating cost and so I wanted to make sure the line in what became more transparent with those contract laborers and so that week that the number words if they if they have somebody that's on a project a programmer a project manager or something at a high level that they really do that through the professional fees line item here commitment item as opposed to doing it as a contract other operating cost. Say say that again other employees they're not employs a third party contractor so but they are professionals IT professionals to the professional services contracts and they run that out of the to money operating money once again I don't mean to use the river credit terminology but they run it out of their overall operating expense as opposed to professional fees and services. You took the operating expense and moved it down is that what you're saying yes yes. This talk about these twenty five. The positions the other. over two years old. Did I understand you to say well ago that they were using vacant budgeted positions and taken in moving the money around. Not the money these are unfunded positions because once again as a cost recovery department so they don't put funding for that position but they do lock up appropriation with it. Well what did you say while ago about they would you salary money to pay a bill I meant to say salary appropriation I misspoke probably that they they would lock up their salary appropriation and then when they're operating they run out of operating money to pay a bill and they would want to go unlock some appropriation out of salaries move it down to their to it is to their advantage to household these positions all these years. Right and so what I'm trying to do is get the better aligned with your operating reality really is what what they're operations look like. That's all Mr chairman thank you thank you Representative Senator hammer. Thank you Mr chair. I'm I will go back to a comment Representative makes me well go that with the changing of the hundred one it it just sounds like we're changing titles to get him out of one agency over underneath your agency what is the what is the reason and FOR the regular salaries increase over actual and the additional positions that are being requested is that part of the hundred and one that's going to move over. No senator this is basically they are these are their authorized positions that they've had for a number of years and but as previously stated they don't they they don't feel these off authorized positions that they currently operate a brand a hundred and eighty two maybe up to two hundred but. It fluctuates these are sometimes very difficult positions to feel I mean they they sometimes they have to I have you know a database administrator is very difficult to combine in the state salary really doesn't match that in the private sector so you know some other vacancies and some of their use of contractors has to do with the need of the department so that's part of it is that these are authorized positions but historically they have had a lot of vacant positions the refresh my memory when the agency does what you mentioned while ago that they have the appropriation under the salary but they'll re direct that appropriation level. Do they come back before us is legislative branch to get approval to do that or is that it of of common acceptable practice among the agency to do that I would say that is not a common practice I I've got a lot of years in government and I've never seen it before as is is as routine as it was for the department of information systems it was something we would do almost on and every other month basis you do have to go to the department of budget I mean the office of budget D. F. and A and request a block in a block appropriation for you to use it you've got to show some justification when you do that and so what would I work with the office of budget for this particular purpose is was to better online what we currently do with what we need actually then why would we need to leave because that's that's a good argument for cutting your appropriations if you all can do that and we is legislative branch don't find out about it to a meeting like this. Why then would we want to leave the appropriation levels up on the salaries as high as they are. They have a lot they have some several critical positions that they need to feel that there. In and special projects that are going on once again if an agency comes in with a special project and has to have a higher level I technology person for that project it's easier to do it through department of information systems than it is to have that create another position within a department for short period of time. And those typically are covered now the now the contract services are covered under the telecommunication technology category that fifty million dollar one is that correct the that you're referring to all go. Not all of them but you know they have a variety of different services that they provide. But the employees you're referring to that you need to keep the appropriation level so high for those would actually become state employees you're talking about they would be covered contractual arrangement. It could be either depending on the needs of the particular needs. Okay and then one last question how are we able to borrow from at five the money that we did without the ability to repay in place so that you don't have to come ask for the money not repay it. It is an excellent question one is as one of the reasons why we've we've looked at it very closely and that's why we've put basically time out everybody's in time out right now Intel because once once again this costs would have to be shared across state skate state governments we want to make sure that we have the ability right now we do have a client base is coming into the data center west it is a secure facility it does have me on the redundant power it has everything you need for a data center but you know we need to make sure we've got the customers in order to support the cost. Senator hammer that was done prior to transformation until and and when we were not over this department. Is that done under the current ad for the administration previous. Current. When when they were standalone agency not not part of commerce. And so. Your your comment while ago I think to Representative Cavenaugh about the question capital outlay your reasoning for the eighteen six was because you need to be positioned to make those capital outlays but did you not also say that's where we're going to be repainted money. Two at four four or did I misunderstand that. Eight I'll have to look and see what's the best way to do it for accounting purposes is but normally you I would probably try to repay at a capital at like but I'm not sure if that's appropriate accounting methodology I'll have to check with the experts on that. I think that would be good because it gives me pause that we've got a outstanding debt what you're wanting to use capital outlay without us having satisfy the denture wonder why you went raised that appropriation level. I can't believe I'm saying this higher in order to cover the existing debt but also have the latitude to make the capital outlay that you're saying that you need we are that mean that could. As to secretaries fetters point it really depends on our steps going forward because right now we do have Sir you know. I think it's for five million dollars and that's on on this loan and we wanted to stop there because I do have the customer base with the department of information systems to pay that back over time it's it's part of a depreciation a rate setting but what we don't have is probably the thirty two hundred twenty million dollar effort that we don't feels that we have enough of customer base without adversely and impacting other state operations. Thank you Mr. Thank you senator. All right we are down to the last couple after represented Cavenaugh here I'm gonna recognize represented Wooten and we're gonna. Land this plane. Thank you Mr chair I would just like to ask you put a flag on this for me all right as done represented would. Senator hammer for your. Information they have a at the first if at first of August sixty three vacant positions over there. And. My question. Purposes. The hundred and eighty positions and average sixty one thousand. it just using the eleven point one million divided by a hundred in the in the fourteen eight fourteen point eight is sixty seven that the six thousand dollar per. The position in Cory's. Yes yes represent everyone some of that has to do with the pay plan but it also has to some of the the vacant a lot of the vacant positions they have a very high level I. T. positions a cloud strategist a cloud architect cloud engineer those are all three separate positions and read I I T. eleven R. I. T. away so at some point it's the higher level positions that are not being feel that the department because right now there may not be a need for a. But more importantly the Senate they're hard to recruit and retain well understand that but you know is twenty five positions over the been vacant for two years if you need to look at Mr terminal and a point of privilege here to the rest of the group this is exactly what I have pursued these positions. The sun these budgeted positions and all these vacant positions in these agencies in the personnel committee we've been confronted with them comment of never had an agency come is give you for so long reduce the salaries it's always I'll give you for so I can increase. This is an ongoing thing and then we have the deal data in with the insurance that we've we these agencies or use in foreign twenty four it'll go to four fifty. Have made this point before the total four hundred fifty dollars per position that they have that is budgeted. To go into the insurance for a we really need to look at this and we need to look at it closely because this is money this time of the. Or they're using as a subterfuge if may not knowledge all. But but you pointed out what they were doing in this agency before transformation and I commend you for being forthright and sharing it with but Mr chairman this is exactly what a and they made the point this is exactly what we need to look very very closely at every position in state government at least every five years and we need some kind of a provision to keep them from carrying over positions that I've been vacant for over two years which should miss Purvis correct take care of this area and we have the same problem in the state medical examiner's. The We have the same problem there like a field important positions but you know surely in two years time you all to be able to so that would give you some leeway or senator somewhere Mr chairman were they would they would do like they do now and come in and ask for additional positions of rather than care in one corner will we go to the court the corrections department be here the more they have a hundred and seventy eight the. Positions that have been vacant for over two years and then I have thirteen pages of on field positions that have never been fail. Seventy per play. So I just hope this point has come across to my colleagues that this is an area that we really need to look at thank you Mr chairman thank you Representative sounds like you've got. The beginnings of a a good bill draft you get to get with bill Maher on all right that wraps this up for right now I need a motion. Got a motion executive racked a second on favor say aye opposed motion passes thank you members for sticking out this is a bill On the afternoon we will be back a special language seven thirty in this room in the morning and then nine o'clock for budget hearings were will be hearing the department corrections we are joined.