Education Committee Senate & House

Good afternoon everyone. Right shoddy afternoon well not really. Seems like it's a normal in Arkansas to be a rainy day so we'll just have to deal with it. But everybody here today we're going to get started on our meeting and we're going to talk about adequacy today. To to be a subject will go talk about for quite awhile. So what managerial meetings I. I've got a few little little notes here so are April meeting is going to we're going to meet on April the sex the Monday before the fiscal session starts. In the seventh yes Monday and Tuesday will meet those 2 days. And. On top of the comparison stage yeah we took everybody's notes that they sent back to this on the what they would like to see us compared with and Ella compare so states and we chose this sorry be states that was a pretty well the biggest most everybody but not everybody chose that one so we're going to compare of self with the yes sorry be states with over this 14 states that correct. So that's what we. Yeah that's what less we will use for a comparison. And if we get into the weeds and we need to you know pull somebody out we probably could ask for one more but will try to keep of this or any sex. And today's meeting you will be asked to provide input regarding. Possible location about that later yeah we'll talk about that later. Alright thank you can I have a approval of the minutes from the February 10 meeting in February 11. So move have second all those in favor say aye. Any oppose. Like we got all those that is the past all right. Of. I guess we are ready to move down to out of the discussion of activities for APA consultants what does about you guys will come on up. Okay with us to day we have. Mr Justin Silverstein it's the CEO CEO of a P. a consulting. And we have Mr Jason Willis. The director strategy in performance comprehensive school assistance program west yes and Rey 5 right. Wow. I'll let you introduce yourself they tell us as bills because we're gonna see a lot of you recent socio a research associate with west add a I and if you all will just introduce yourself you will be recognized. So a thank you cochairs Justin Silverstein with that I would look placement so sheets and will. We will have everyone can enters do some selves as they get going in the presentation of that that that works for you one thank you all for let us come down again on this trip this will be the last time where we don't give you results of something this is a so starting next month we're going to be coming down and talking a little bit more about their findings that we have so with a little bit more process work we need to get through today with you all to make sure that we lined up since we have the band with to do that and then starting from here on out will really be talking about the results of different pieces of the study. So what we hope to go through today and every presentation we're gonna give you just a study update of the different pieces where we are with us certain areas that were studying then today we want to talk about the educator panels and the stakeholder listening sessions so we want to talk about both timeline when we're gonna do these and locations and then walk through a little bit about the topic areas and our draft questions we are happy through the cochairs to get take feedback on any areas that any of the committee members want to see asked about during those educator panels or stakeholder listening sessions. And then we have case studies coming up pretty quickly where we're gonna be out visiting schools in the state who are identified as really outperforming what you would predict based on their demographics in it and they're expenditures and and different characteristics we want to talk about that time line and really walk through our selection process for those selecting those case studies school so that's what we hope to get through today. So our quick study update. As you can imagine we need a lot of data to get through all the different pieces in the 3 different sections of the study we've been working with the department of ed to both identified the available data and they get the data delivered to our staff we actually see a good chunk of that data over the past couple weeks we really pushed most. Closely on the data we would need for this case study school selection to come first there's other data and bigger sets of data and the model that will need that are still coming and we also have basically all the facilities data will need for that section 3 B. study which is really looking at the size of schools and and facilities and things like that and so we've done a lot of that we're also think clearly working on the 3. Pieces of the study that we're gonna present initial findings for next month which includes the resources needed for student mental health services the get what's needed to attract and retain administrative and educational staff and attracting and retaining nurses clearly in all of those areas we're gonna talk to by both the case study schools and the educator panels later in the study and so what you'll see next month is that national view and the literature review of what's being talked about nationally about how do you address these 3 topic areas. Hi. So just a little background and we present is at the last meeting you'll notice we we do get redundant sometimes we figure you have to hear it a couple times I remember exactly what's happening I'm sure you're not studying for the month between our meetings everything that we're doing. But we're gonna have educator panels and stakeholder listening sessions. And there are proposals to do this in 5 sites around the state and really what we're looking at with this is that. The educator panels are focused targeted. And almost focus groups that you're sitting down in the region the state with a group of school leaders teachers superintendents CFO's as are all separate panels we're gonna hold those during the day. And we're gonna invite folks regionally so we're gonna be set up or to set up shop in one community but we're gonna ask folks regionally to come and that represent that overall region so we want to variation in school or in school and district size we want a variation and demographic differences perhaps in their expenditure levels will have all of that data. We're gonna hold those and have the more targeted communications. Then the stakeholder listening sessions really are are held in the evening and we usually hold one account right after school and one a little later we get a little bit more of the opportunity for the more the broader community come in and talk about what's working and what's not working can with their thoughts on both for this study you know it's pretty broad it will walk through our targeted list of questions but we want to know what's working with the finance system we want to know what's working with the college and career readiness standards we want to be talking about the broad piece of the study. It's generally so that folks feel heard and listen to as part of the overall process because what you get a lot of state that you have a close process and at the end people say where was my voice here we're gonna be able to say from across the state there was a time where you could come and you know really express that voice as part of this of this work. And then as you remember and that this isn't on here we'll also have a statewide survey where folks can respond to questions you don't have the opportunity to come to those meetings. Okay. So what we're looking at here is at you to be clear we do not have the perfect context of the state and so we looked at a map and look at the regional distribution we've had some feedback on this that. Apps we were gonna change the southeast at. Site but what we're thinking is that we hold these meetings in early August and so I thought is right before school starts folks are ramping back up in the school systems we're gonna get out around the state and we're really gonna be talking to them at that time. That's in part because we also these case studies are gonna happen here in the spring and we don't want to overload folks with us coming out and asking them to participate in part because we think it's a really good time to get that done. We think of the state in the 5 regions we wanna think centrally will have something around little rock in the north west we are thinking about Fayetteville in the northeast Jonesborough in the south west hope in the southeast we had looked at a map and and kind of thought through do miss we've also heard and I'm gonna say the name wrong of course state court as perhaps another piece were really thinking through and we're getting feedback on you know ensuring that we have representation and thoughtfulness around the delta and the different impacts their so. Basically what will happen is a team will show up to that community. Hold probably 2 or 3 of those educator target panels during the day. Hold the open meetings in the evening perhaps old one more meeting early the next morning and then drive to the next community and we'll have a number of teams throughout the state getting that done. We're gonna want to have you know good publicity for this we want folks to feel like they're getting involved but will also have to have some selection process for some of those targeted panels which we can talk about more as we go through and get closer to August. We absolutely I welcome feedback from for on the sites and so on the key criteria for the sites in our minds that their regional hub that folks are familiar coming to people are gonna have to come to us right we cannot visit every community in the state as much as we would like to and so it needs to be a familiar place folks naturally come but also has facilities at a level that we can have a larger open meetings in the evening so we will really tag on to an auditorium or a cafeteria or jam where we're gonna have you know maybe 50 or 100 people in the evening at those larger stakeholder engagement and so we're trying to find the balance of both making sure we're regional or folks will come but they have the adequate facilities that to help us with those larger meetings in the evenings so that's our goal right now. Have you have any thoughts or questions on sites any anything there. We have one we have a couple questions we might wanna wait till the till we get finished with my to go ahead with your part your presentation okay and then what we'll do is kind of be thinking in our minds about these these areas because be kind of hard for everybody just to. Scream out where they think we ought to go so what you go ahead and then we got a couple questions and we'll we'll take those questions after you finish your presentation great. So the next part of this presentation is really talking about one of the general areas that we want to. Get feedback on during both the more targeted educator panels and the stakeholder listening sessions in really what we did is we review the overall study when trying to find one of those key components where having some more this qualitative information would be important persons the large quantitative dig we are also doing and so we want to hear a little bit more we want to hear not all of it we want to hear more about college and career readiness we want to talk about the resources in the matrix there's the specific ask about are the resources that committees are using that are not in the matrix and so we want to talk a little bit about that that would include the resources for student mental health which is a specific asking the study. As already talked about that attraction to retention of staff that's both nurses administrative an educational staff. The use a professional development extra duty time the overall size policies that's part of 3 be. And we're doing a pretty big dig in section 3 C. on the proxies for economically disadvantaged and best use is a poverty funds so we want to talk about that. The stakeholder listening sessions are much more the higher level were as those targeted panels are much more the detailed and so example would be we may ask probably about matrix resources at the stakeholder panel where we can actually review that matrix and those more targeted panels we could actually you know have a concrete discussion about that so that's kind of the juxtaposition about how will be doing that and. Some example questions are. You can see in here but we're gonna be looking at college and career readiness in Arkansas the alignment between the curriculum and the Carnegie units with the state best measures to determine if students are meetings definition factors that impact to school districts ability to attract and retain stop so really trying to get a feel of are there similarities in the difficulties for attracting retaining staff or we seeing because we're doing this regionally different impediments to doing that that will be helpful since we're going around the state. This is the explicit question of any resources currently not addressed in the matrix we're gonna piggy back on that was some of the very specific house around student mental health C. T. E. and certain student groups that are right in the R. F. P. and the request from us and than anything else kind of around the matrix and how you might modify that. Additionally looking at the best supports and services for the economically disadvantaged students so we're doing a National Review around that we are looking at the case studies around the question but we also want to ask folks on the ground what they're doing so if we can see if there's some alignment between all of that there's a specific questions about professional development and extra duty time symbols looking at their structure and how it's currently used in the system. And then again in section 3 be there's a lot of an information we're gathering about size of schools and efficiency and effectiveness of those schools and so again will want to get that qualitative feedback through their it's 8 that for the cochairs this is a pretty good. Dividing line between are kind of educator panel stakeholder listening to peace and the case study so this might be a good time if it's okay with you to take questions on this specific area unless you want to keep going through. Okay let's see we have a couple questions here senator Cheatham. Pleasure when out. Turn it off turn it back on. As. Yeah. Now. It now do it you. This is this is new technology. I go there. Thank you. Thank you Mr chairman Mr you may be a little quick on on the button I don't but because I'm from not only one but when you of course southeast corner stated my Senate district and then this might be the best location but. I don't know for your haven't you flying above there or not but for most Senate district that would not be the best location Opelika made but it's hard figure I I then I thought about it good order pick a good location because of and I thought about lake village and I thought about McGee court model so is the centre my district book is courting before you're going to expect to bring school from above and the delta above you know north of there I don't know that's that would be the if you are and you may have mentioned us city in the delta north for the state did you or did out during that. At. It's it's it's that it was so we talk about sex art as an as an alternative to do miss but I'm trying to figure out I guess would you say. When you're talking about meetings if you're going to have one meeting. Well the delta. Southeast Arkansas old what's above their idea for you have a meeting of the north in the northeast for the state yes Sir will have both meeting somewhere around little rock so someone who is a little closer to little rock could come here and then we're also gonna Jonesborough so that's kind of the eastern side of the state trying to pick up the kind of that half of the state would be those 3 those 3 pieces but you're talking about what below interstate 40. Because I'm just like about the course you want to involve all through the no and then in the Rogers group bigger school but you know I don't know do is maybe the best place but I have to go back and convince myself that this bill is but it is and thank you for your response but and I was coming hard to please everybody but. But I'll be glad to work anyway I can to to to help you make that decision appreciate that like you. Okay let's see senator Chesterfield will try you. Let's see if a working here one of the things that we were looking as I look at your questions one of the areas and I go back to beating it being this state horses transportation and the reason I keep bringing it up is because there are some key is here on the bus hours. Any will have a deleterious impact on their ability to learn. If they're only those buses for long periods of time so I'd like to see and I've asked Neil also for some information if at all possible what is the what is the impact of kids who are leaving school at 3 and not getting home until 6 in the evening or something of that sort and also going back to places where they don't have access to internet service or any of this stuff so what kind of process you gonna put in place to to look at grappling with the issue of the impact of a long bus drivers. A bus rides you will on student learning because I know that that has an impact and that's why I keep talking about transportation transportation because we have those key it's too I'm going from Marvell down to snow lake or whatever I think it's no lake down there that's a long drive to key it's and so that's what I'm I'm when I talk about transportation that's what I'm talking about can I hope that you would look at that impact on student learning and the other issue we use the. The lack of bus drivers who are available. Because that's one of the major areas where we have a shortage in so many places is getting somebody qualified. To drive are key it's where they need to be so those areas of interest to me and I'm also interested in what senator. Senator Cheatham was talking about because we look at southeast where he is is down 530. But if you're talking about 40 east and then going 49 and then you're talking about Helena west Helena Forrest city in that area how are you going to get to the end because Jonesborough was not going to cut it. For that because the differences are so remarkable among those areas so geographically Arkansas is not a huge huge huge state but it is a complex date as far as where people are are and my colleague and the house was talking about hold now I love it because that's my home town but you also have quite a few folks that are going to have to come up from Camden is going to have to I don't know what are you gonna do with are you gonna be an elder rate in the Willisville area how do you do that what what are your thoughts on that Senator think thank you for all the those pieces I I think one of the questions in. Perhaps locally we have till August that to kind of set these up so we'll have a little bit more band with to figure that out whereas when we talk about case studies they select themselves right we're going where we're going. No word from a western state and folks are very used to driving a certain distance to get places which is very different than when we work in Maryland and we say we're gonna hold a regional meeting people like well if it's more than 45 minutes away we're not coming right so you know because all right okay 3:00 hours is no problem Marilyn it's 45 minutes I think getting some feedback from you all on kind of what is the. Kind of the natural distance that folks when they have something important are willing to commute for well then maybe we can start to map out a little bit more closely how well we can do this because one of things we could think about is having stakeholder engagement in one community and then doing some of those more targeted panels down the road maybe we move in our verses everyone else moving in our but again we we want regional representation at each of those meetings so we need to make sure wherever we go folks can come to it also said that there's a natural place at a I hear you and and we want to make sure we get that variety of voice you know I deal even at a meeting right where folks are you have a little bit different experience in different background because I think that can really bubble up differentiated issues for folks in the concert I hadn't thought of that so we'll keep working through those in it and you know the the delta has come up a couple times it seems like maybe that's our biggest not to crack here of making sure but even yes what I find is defined differently yeah a lot of people because if you're talking about the area closest to Mississippi. Are you you're talking about the area where senator Cheatham wrecked represents and the area of where senator Ingram represents a totally different but they're both dealt yeah and so that's where you're at that's where your challenge is going to cut me and I think yeah I wish you well and I I'm I'm hopeful at this but I do want us to recognize first of all that in Colorado you have mass transit mailing you may have read master we don't have that here and there are people who have transportation issues period so we're not a rich state and so you have some people who really need to be a part of this conversation we don't have transportation access to all of that's going to be a challenge but whatever we can do to help we want to because we want to get is broader representation as we possibly can Senate bill we do have school buses that can take of their. Now yeah thank you I just want to know how we're gonna market to our educators and to our stakeholders to make sure that they know in plenty of time to get there. Absolutely thank you represented the. So what has been most successful in some other states and we weren't even that good at making this happen is that. Local newspapers got wind of this and they just simply post that this is occurring and so I think working both with the cochairs and B. L. R. and the department of and which is also a big the getting a blast out to all superintendents in the state about when this is going to happen and and how that's happening that starts to breed it what you want to find a happy balance on is not having one or 2 district to get everybody to show up and it feels like there's only one story it will go out of everybody comes but you want everybody to know about it and so again I think that's a big part of our work towards August is creating that communications plan with you all to make sure that we feel like it's getting to enough voices because especially with the survey which we don't have on here we want everyone to be taking that for as many folks as possible we had 6000 folks take that in Nevada which gave us a really good Representative sample of pull educators but also business leaders and community members and parents and and that's really good information to have and so we need to work with the department and and committee staff to figure out exactly how we get that out. Senator Elliott. Thank you madam chair I was I do want to follow up on what it. Chairperson from the house Bruce Cozart said about the buses because we can get everything taken care of senator Chesterfield I I I I really think that would be a good way to create a theme around what we're doing because there are a lot of parents who don't have transportation but we could make it you know it's a party bus going to the whatever and we have to be careful how we define party but. But they will be adults Senate could count for something out but I do think that would be a way to bring community together taking a trip together like a road trip on behalf of our kids that kind of thing we probably get a lot more of a participation that way as well since we are doing something as a community and have all these buses coming in from different areas like they do for football game or petitions that this is my thought on that and I have a couple of questions. One is. When at what point will there be or is there an and an opportunity to talk with the communities and the about equity the stake holders their thoughts about equity and what it means so they can be thinking about that and so that when the school district comes up with you know ideas that will have been a converse and I think the same thing with the educators as well because one of the over all things we have not dealt with as much as perhaps we need to is that whole sense of equity and that's the part of funding that we have not dealt with this fight it be an efficient and equitable. So that one and. On the question what is it mean to be college and career ready in Arkansas showing interpret that to be to mean. Arkansas as opposed to being prepared other why is are we going to get pushed on one. Making sure that being prepared in Arkansas. Is. It more than just Arkansas if you ended up someplace else or we want to compete in the world. How we should be more than just Arkansas my making sense. Senator absolutely and can I take your second question first in their work and then talk about equity I think we use the Arkansas statement in there because clearly in the RP we talk we're talking accreting at a standard for the state the overall work is going to include looking at you know a literature review and and what's going on across the country that to really understand what college and career readiness means but also looking at your current standard so melding that together in the end me what we do find and and chasing can talk about this too and I'm sure right for you would. Capsule disagree. The end product of. Any state college and career readiness standard does tend to differ a little bit within state contacts so I do think there's a baseline level of of what is it mean to be prepared but are there some specifics which I don't have the contacts at to talk specifically about that could be Arkansas centric and I think that's kind of what we're talking about is there anything that is really you know a line that that. Based either on the history and and some of the requirements you currently have because you have a set of requirements or something else that we want to make sure we have in there so I don't. I wouldn't want to see you know I think everything in the van diagram between generally what's college and career readiness nation wide and you know this statement of Arkansas it's going to be a lot of overlap because we're taking a big picture of information but we don't want to lose that local state context either so trying to find that balance I think that's a good thing to have that this state but local context out because of we don't have a sense of where we are and what we're expecting then we really won't know how to compare ourselves contrast of cells within the places this is the ideal I I really think and you know and 2020 we have to be very careful that we don't don't just decide but this is good enough for Arkansas and stop there it may well be but we won't know that without being really serious about comparing to other states or countries and whatever which is 1 of the reasons I think there may be this is not about you that reasons for going beyond the S. R. E. B. states because our kids have to compete everywhere. That's it thank you thank you madam chair. Like a manager of. Just incentive just bill touchtone transportation which you know it is an issue but is it may be the wrong questions wrong time but up noted for that. You know we've got some additional money put in our salary funds to bring up to minimum wage minimum salaries across state was law talk about small schools specially in my Senate district and others up in the delta. 1 that money is I think 2022 that moneys golf. They'll be some serious issues with our small schools or is that something you all will is that they would charge you looking at that maybe consolidation of schools it is that this is in my mind is being something we don't need to worry about. Senator there are a number of places I think in the overall study will this will come up so thinking about attraction retention of of staff this could be an underlying piece of the discussion of you know we do have some looking nationally and then I think some modeling on the idea of consolidating districts are there a lot of places where different pieces might come up I don't think we have that specific question but it definitely is with in the the overall scope of the study thank you thank you for. Thank you madam chair I just wanna make sure that when we're going to these men meetings and we're going to go to the larger hub areas and I understand the reasoning why is I want to make sure that we're not just gonna be listening to 1 side school as someone who represents real Arkansas the issues that we face in real Arkansas is completely different than what Jonesboro Arkansas and I say northeast because I'm 30 miles in Jonesborough is completely different from what Johns bill does so we can't just be looking that if 56 hub areas and things that represent Arkansas it does not as senator Chesterfield said were very diverse and we have to make sure that the concerns of real Arkansas or heard because we just have different complete issues transportation issues lack of infrastructure just things that keep our children from being able to perform I want to make sure that we're not going to base this upon just areas that have assets that might be real Arkansas doesn't have. Thank you Representative in and to be clear I think our overall goal in the design is to try to get as many people from diverse communities to a spot and and I and actually hear you. One of our main goals in any kind of research is to wait the information you're getting appropriately so if you get 50 folks to talk in that community from John for you have to realize that it doesn't make it 50 times more important or 50 times more relevant or 50 times more true it just there were more people there so we will clearly have a. Understanding of who's speaking at each time and where they come from so we can categorize that and pull the data. And then but my colleague was just mentioning I think it's really smart is that thinking through how you we could. 2 additional outreach to some of the smaller more rural communities with in that sphere to to say because I think this can happen or they don't really want to hear from us because they're going to you know the larger community and what we're gonna really try to committee as we really want here from you we wanted for me is made you cancer trying to come to a place that's more convenient for everyone to get to and I just don't know this yet and I apologize but if you have more like a rural school district organization. It kind of represents more the rule district some states have that we could work more directly with them to during the out reach just a kind of double up on that that out reach for those communities. Well madam chair. One other question on something different I notice going through your material that you're going to be looking at the most successful schools to get your idea well from someone who's lived life I've learned the most from my failures not my successes so are we not going to be looking at schools where we may have some issue so that we can dive down into what's really because in those issues to find a way that maybe we can fix those issues you don't always learn the most from your successes. Absent of at this time we have not built that into the structure I think we could take that under advisement and work with co chairs to see if we could fit something in you know one of the main goals and and and Jason Rapert will talk more about it is trying to find within the case study protocols. Information that is more applicables and kind of scalable to to other community so you're trying to find folks who really art the outline errors like the absolute you know. A it with the way I referred okay the unicorn where you can't really replicate that anywhere you can't kind of you know explain their success but you're trying to find folks who are very successful and understand the programs interventions they're using trying to see if the other folks who were also successful are using similar programs interventions and does that line up with the national research I'm programs interventions to start to give folks kind of a picture of these are the types of practices being using those most successful places that are so common it's hard to argue against that this would be the you know kind of the way to do it so let's take that under advisement it's not currently in there but I I agree with you like trying to understand the other side of the coin can be a very important thank you. Okay Representative Vaught. Thank you madam chair I'm I kind of want to go back to what Representative garner was talking about a minute ago you were talking about maybe doing the newspaper and stuff like that newspaper to me is not gonna be your best venue but if we had electronic pieces in which we could use on our social medias may I think would be a better use of. Much better way to get things out 6 specially this survey we have that and we can push it from our side. That because I mean I hated I mean even Arkansas Democrats online now so means the likelihood is that you're not going to hit as many people as you would if it was done through our social medias and I was just wondering if that's going to be available reserve all I think we'll probably give them a list of all of the associations that can get that to the to the coop so superted socialist teachers association all that so they can get that out a lot quicker thank you Mr chair real blast out. Because we do want people take part of me that skylights census we we need everybody in the left and I live in a very rural area and so they don't hear a lot and was there are find it on my Facebook or on my staff thought I would appreciate anything we can have that will help us get to into their hands. Mine. Okay Representative Murdock. All thank you then I guess along the same lines that you're hearing ribs of clothes are just say it what I was hoping that we would get to is that there are a number rule and other associations in the state that DO help what would help you get access to these very in groups of diversified groups of people that we need to reach so that you can be effective in what the ultimate goal of your of of of what this project will be so certainly the deep dives will be very much needed you know something that I'm always concerned about what we do studies is generalizations and and when you come from area like I come from with very unique in in everybody's unique in their own way was certainly the uniqueness I talk about it takes a deep dive to get into the community and to know what you're dealing with so you can effectively fix something as represent Cavenaugh mention. You got to go look at some of these places where we felt in order to really make us better as a state so we can easily look at our successes but make should we take a deep dive into and and sometimes you know to the coops and other associations that represent of Cozart and other chairs going to give you you can find the uniqueness and some of the unique situations that prohibit the attainment from happening in certain areas it is not the same everywhere so we take models and formulas and try to apply across the board sometime that's what we fail even our best efforts so please make that deep dive realize what those real issues are in the end we address those uniquely verses in 80 of Duluth type sense because sometimes we miss even though we spend the money make the effort but we still miss. Thank you. You hi do we have any other questions. Moving right along. Go ahead. When. Thank you Senator English represent Cozart so just to pick up on where Justin had left off my name is Jason Willis I am a director strategy performance with west said and myself along with my colleague right to will be presenting some of the frame around the case studies an already for heard some feedback around looking at some of those places that are not being a successful as opportunities to understand what the circumstances are I and so most of the frame that we're presenting today around the case studies are in the inverse liking for those successful systems and using a quantitative approach as a basis to identify those places and then do a deeper dive of those set of case studies so before I dive into the the content on this site in particular at the why here is really important terms of why we're using a quantitative model to identify these schools and one of the one of the primary reasons is replica ability we want to be able to at offered to the state and ability to replicate this method over time so we can do it in performant ones here for you all along with these case studies but then create an opportunity for the state to continue to use this method in the future I'm to identify these kinds of successful schools in the programs that they're using to support students I'm the second is that the quantitative model allows us to how did a Representative of all schools in Arkansas which is important in the context of being able to say what are the metrics of performance that are at the most important in helping to advance student achievement in the in the eyes of the eyes of the state and so we are in right fool talking more about some of the data elements that will be incorporated into the quantitative model and so the study team will be conducting those case studies and 12. 16 successful schools across the state based on I set up performance analysis with an emphasis on schools with high concentrations of yes I'll or economically disadvantaged students and that's important in the context of knowing that not only here in Arkansas but also across the country these are the environments that school system struggle the most with when you have high concentrations of these kinds of students they typically under perform.of there other other schools in other neighborhoods and communities across across the state and over the course of the next couple of a couple of weeks are right for you in the rest of the west a team will be working to pull together these quantitative data the Arkansas department of it has been very gracious and prioritized providing us some of these data to allow us to build on this initial quantitative model on the visits them scout themselves will be scheduled during the first 2 weeks of may with up to 4 teams working across the state to make those school visits and this saves it themselves will include meetings with the principal other leadership and teachers we also want to understand and recognize that schools are not autonomous entities and to themselves they lead live in operate in a context within school districts in most cases and so we want to find an opportunity to engage with district leaders as well to understand what rules regulations flexibility is guidelines they're providing to schools out there especially those that have been selected as a means to understand the context in which those those leaders are in. And so to frame this on the alternative would write fee to go into a little bit further detail on the quantitative modeling elements of the of the selection. There to kind of key resource our server research questions that we're looking to answer along with their analytical framework kind of first which schools again with high concentrations of English learner or low socioeconomic student populations outperform predicted student outcome so what we would expect to see with those populations what schools are outperforming the out of their peers second best in class if you will and so statistically identifying a Representative group of those 12 to 16 high performing schools from across the state I think it's important to note here that in doing so it is a possibility that we may not find a successful school if you will in all regions of the state of Arkansas right so there may be places based on the characteristic of the level elementary middle and high their characteristics school characteristics or soon demographics in which they may not be all represented and part of what we're holding intention here is one ensuring that any of these schools that are identified or meeting some minimum level of performance threshold but also wanting to create and have a diverse sample of those 12 to 16 to have characteristics that are Representative of different parts of the state of Arkansas. All right and to this to the second research question around that the characteristics practices or supports that make the school successful with those specific disadvantaged populations and that the qualitative investigation for those schools is really looking to identify practice sees processes or school context that are making them successful both on those things and items are in their control inside of the school environment but also trying to understand the context in which they're operating within a a district to the community in which the rent. So with that I'll turn it over to my colleague very few he'll go into a little bit more detail about the quantitative modeling. Hello my name is right to do it yay thank you senator English and ribs and because our I'll talk a bit about sorry I'll talk a bit about the the identification process that will use to identify the 206 to 16 schools that will identify for case studies so the first component is this data collection process we're receiving data from the Arkansas department education into streams 1 through formalized data sharing agreement and also through the publicly available data center in addition we're also going to supplement the nicest with data from the office for education policy which is do you that students from the university of Arkansas I'll speak a little bit about the outcome data in this important because on this the data that we're going to use to deem the school successful since the we're gonna be looking ACT aspire combined grow data so this data is a combination of ACT aspire E. LA math in writing rituals we'll be using that dated for 2 reasons number 1 because we want to get a sense of school performance across subject areas so it's a bit of more robust measure in additionally it's grow data and the reason that we like to use go day is because it it correlates less with social economic status so as we get deeper into this process wanna make sure that we're not only other being the schools that have high amounts of hi S. yes Sir more of fluid student inventor of enters a school district in trolls what we're doing here is we're simply talking about the submitted that will collect to control for as we go through the quantitative modeling process some of the that will collected student demographics to take into account the distribution of the student body so this things like the special education population that your population the low SCS population additionally will collect teacher workforce characteristics best data like every teacher salary within a school as well as the teacher experience within the school because we know those things. I'm have implications for student success in the last 2 also take into account financial information because again we don't want to simply for I guess by omitting these particular measures from the model only of the schools that may be more fluent or have more or better financial situations. So the second step in the certification process will be feeding the statistical model so here we use a hard couple model to approximate this relationship in again when we talk about the hardcore model essentially we know that schools are nested within districts there's just a court approach that we can use to better approximate that relationship so we don't get too deep but we will use a hardcore model to estimate these relationships in that will give us the ability using historical data to predict school of outcomes that's important because these predictions it also it more poorly probably these predictions relevant to house cools performers are going to be a success for instance if we were predict the school will perform at X. level but they perform at why level Dalby indication at this school has outperform expectations we might elevate them as a successful school there other instances where a school my perform right and expectations or may be under perform given historical data but again this is important information because that's kind of the basis of how we're going to identify elevate who is really a successful with these particular student populations. So in this third step in there a few something come up components here but this is actually pretty straight forward is to write filtering stratify as I said in the prior slide once we get a sense of how you perform based on yours historical data they were going to be able to rank the schools to have far out poor outperformed exceed expectations all the way down to the schools who have underperformed so that's this ranking step at that point in time we'll be able to apply filters first thought you that we know is important for application is the accountability rating the C. filter so since the we're to get rid of all the schools within this ranking we have gotten to see accountability rating or lower just because we want to make sure any schools that we identify successful have also been deemed a success for through the state accountability system and then the second for 2 that will apply to make sure that we're really homing in on this target population is a full turn around the minimum threshold for ito students in low income student populations because harking back to the research questions and also Justin's per the presentation wanna make sure that. We're getting a sense of how schools are doing with high concentrations of student populations that regularly underperform for lack of a better term they will get to this a step of stratify schools in again that's more of a fancy term for grouping we're gonna group schools based on the region to ensure that we had geographic race preparation Tatian at least that's the intent behind this application process so once we have all the schools are eligible to be selected or group them into a northwest regional center region in northeast region for example at that point in time will be a pretty to select high performing schools within each one of those respective regions. So here's just example hopefully make this process a bit more intuitive and we can think of is from organizational perspective but that first it being to obviously collect the data we projects student performance in the ranks schools natural we start so let's say in this is a hypothetical school but Ozark ties to twentieth rings a school they say in the state so this is the ranking component then we go to the the process where we opossum criteria let's say this high school actually has to be accountability rating based on that they would stay within the bucket of eligible schools because they don't have a C. can ability rating or lower they would get to this stratification process Ozarks how will be located in the northwest region the street so of the state to was simply group that school with other schools within the same region I'm in that that particular point in time if it was a high performing high school within the state will be selected and you can go in actually look at the the visual on the right and you can kind of get a sense of how this will work from all parts Arkansas schools grew by region and then selecting schools within each region by type that will get you to essentially 15 schools will be right in the sweet spot of our range of 12 to 16 schools for case study. In the last 3 this is just a a bit more of intuitive example of this whole process it may be helpful if you want to communicate this to stay close in terms of how this is going to play out so as we see it will collect or store could data to assess. House because of done over time will model in predict school performance to understand giving your school context in your student body how we predict students would perform given that will be able to rank schools based on whether not students out performed underperformed those predictions on that point time energy will filter to make sure all the schools who have with a low accountability ratings are ineligible to be selected as a successful school they wish Jeff I we grew by region and then we select high performing schools within those regions of that will get us to the 12 to 16. So with that. Ready for any questions you have some questions. Representative Lowery. Thank you madam chairman and I just had some questions about the methodology that was described we kept hearing the phrase quantitative and. One the main question I had was just in terms of the sample size the references of 12 to 16 schools now is at 12 to 16 districts or 12 to 16 actual school buildings. This is schools will get in a fight 2016 schools schools yes in. Do you feel that that is a Representative enough sample when when we're looking at a total of almost 1200 schools how would you also be breaking that down in terms of K. through 6 middle school high schools to be able to give Representative samples in each of those categories. Yes it I'd thank you for the the question so the so the total 16 schools I think are within the constraints of the study were conducting for Arkansas there's a this is around the the qualitative collection of data that would follow up from the quantitative modeling itself which is what Justin and his team will be doing as a as a follow up to that in regards to your second question around representation so we do intend right who had reference the stratification stop within the identify group stratify and select the stratification is where we would break out to look at those schools elementary middle and high school to ensure that we have representation across this 12 to 16 and as I mentioned with the cabbie out that depending on how the model produces the set of identified schools we may not have a school in a certain region of the state that fits one of the stratification well and that is the concern I have is specially after hearing what represented Cavenaugh Representative Murdock and others have mentioned is that when you're talking about such a small sample size the chances of you being able to cover the state geographically combination of rule to urban districts that just seems like a. A very low number now I understand that you're limited in that you want to do school visits quantitatively you're trying to identify the 12 to 16 best Representative schools but the data that you're gonna be collecting is qualitative correct. Yes this groups which in the schools yes it's there will be a standardized procedure FOR data collection so we will have we we have the data going in and will collect more data but it's really. This is not a Saint like we are not taking a sample of the state and and picking schools that perfectly represents in part because you will not always have that in the success criteria but mostly because there's just a constraint on kind of time and resources to to do that so what we're really trying to collect as this qualitative information about how do schools faced with similar population. Population 2 schools tend to struggle getting success from. Going into multiple schools were really doing well what this populations are we seeing similarities across the schools in the types of programs are interventions they might identify so you know are they doing a lot of common planning time are they doing after school programming do they do a lot of data you're the data driven schools trying to get some understanding comparing that with also the broader research we're doing a as part of the study of what are the types of programs interventions the research is showing are working to try to start to train you late both the that research element with what's actually happening on the ground in those schools in Arkansas but you're absolutely right we. You know I don't have the calculator in my head of the exact number of schools stratified that you would need to be truly Representative and we just cannot get to that that number of schools with the visits right stand. Thank you thank you manager. Thank you madam chair I am looking on page 14 where you say you're a limiting schools with the accountability ratings on more that is correct right. And I guess it's it's it's troubling to some extent because there's a small dish school district in the southeastern corner that went from an F. to a city. For with. No. Money to speak of. Not access at home to any of the I. T. that we assume everybody has. It is. By the standards where they are a successful school it is all black all of the kids on free and reduced lunch and they have been able to move from F. to see and yet they won't be a part of this stratification if you will that you're talking about so I guess I need for you to explain to me more. As to your definition of what success is because success for me is moving up from an F. to a C. and yet that's not going to be a part of the definition in this particular study is that correct since senator if I can answer that question because this is in part the structure that we helped working with west and put together and I think that's a great question and a great example that will need to think through impart when this list of 12 to 16 schools comes out at the end of the study there's this got check process that everybody around the state's going to do about the schools we visited and so we were trying to think through what filters could you apply so that you don't end up visiting a school that everyone else looks and says wait we we don't think of that school is successful so I think you know within the time constraint we can definitely take a look at those within the growth model because that's exactly what we're using is is looking at that growth and if we are starting to see in that top tier of schools a number of schools who are in that see or below rating then we're gonna need to read it visit our own assumptions because we're missing something and so let us give you the the the. Just know that we will do that part of the that stat because growth test is the really important part but you also want to be able to think through kind of a minimum level of overall performance and and trying to find that balance and it's what nationally we struggle with with growth models like you can find the school that's growing really well and yet none of their students over the 4 years in high school we'll ever get you know to proficiency right we have these weird things that happen with data and we are trying to kind of get a rat like had put a filtering that helps us right off the bat but I I hear what you're saying and so I think our first look can be with high concentrations of schools in our selection process at sea or below then we need to rethink ourselves a little bit that being one of the filter because it it's going to be a challenge. Especially in the area to which we we refer often we have that small school district call Eudora. That move from F. to see. And we're talking about one of the highest poverty rates in the state of Arkansas and yet they have grown and so I I am concerned because you're not going to find. People probably making in a B. or an A. in any part of the delta but there is gross and people are doing things differently that are making a difference so I would just ask that you look at it because I don't want you to tell me what I already know that the majority of those people make an eighties and these were the rich folks are. We know that but let us look at what we are doing differently in areas that has made it possible for children to grow where they are and against some of the worst odds in the world so that's that's what I would ask that you take a look at and just think about thank you very much cultures of it's okay just up to mention also. If you look on that same slide in that second bullet under filters we are also having a minimum threshold for their S. date. Their ELO or low income soon populations and when we think of that that will be something well above statewide average so we they're they're kind of competing. Metrics but for sure we are not going out to look for schools that do not have higher concentrations in these 2 areas because that is actually the study question is is what's happening the schools we will be visiting schools who have higher rates that's what we're going out to. Then I pushed requests but not be behind senator Chesterfield really don't the bill for me to say really because she hits all the points and and and and you appreciate your receptionist was he saying because there should be one more area called the deep dive year this one more area the she's talking about that really need to be looked at because it's not a part of your model is it the is so I appreciate your ability to do that because that is there is growth happening but is not in the current way that you see it and they may not be that ABC range even but there is something happening this happened much differently than is what's important about the studies is that you start off right so that you end up with an outcome of really affecting in helping people that need help so someone's eliminated overlooking not properly assessed the you don't get there at the end you steal just been against me to money to to study so thank you so much appreciate Senate just feel. Senator Elliott. Thank you madam chair I'm going to fess up right now I don't even I'm not even sure I know how to ask this question I'm going to give it a shot. I'm I'm wondering if when you look at growth. If the if there is any. For any problematic. Thoughts about. It it is dependent on some criteria that we've already set a BCD so forth and school ratings. What you do is going to be dependent on. What we've already decided. It says so I I'm trying to get to whether or not you just accept that is face value it's been something that is valid. Or. Do you bring any other thoughts to this because. You know what you input what you start with is certainly going to affect how you end up I would think so. You ready to just go me here so hello thank you for the question really all star and then right to can job and I think that the points that senator Chesterfield and Representative Murdock had pointed out in the just earlier exchange I think are. Appropriate pretty clear on applying the filters here on the slide I also think that part of the criteria if I can just go back. A slide to where we talk about fitting a statistical model predicting the outcomes to gauge school performance for using a growth measure that is associated with individual students based on the ACT for grades 3 through 10. And so that this would empirically pick up those schools that are meeting those thresholds of high degrees of English learners high degrees of low income students in those population sites and are hitting this criteria think what we just discussed was having some flexibility around the application of filters to get that gross and the C. T. by you know many measures nationally as an independent measure it's not something that the state of Arkansas has any influence over setting take a step the criteria for growth and are rife if you had anything else you wanted to I know I'm I mean just here any questions I do take them to heart I'm just thinking in terms of the way that we thought about addressing some your concerns was the use of growth just because as you status at a perfect measure but it is less clear than proficiency which is a very problematic measures that was kind of the thought process there that also this idea of applying these thresholds for E. on low income students to make sure to be sure the fact that once we actually did identify schools they would be schools that were Representative or not in the rose use of situations but schools actually we're dealing with student population to have struggle and that we're employing practices that could be disseminated and helpful to a lot of uh the lowest performing schools in the state so I think we will probably have additional discussions but you brought to bear some important contacts that will take into account. Okay because I I just and and and I strictly on this you know for myself that when we place an A. B. C. or the R. F. on a school I'm not sure anybody really knows if that means anything of real import that's that's my concern. So might my other question has to do with how you going to be looking at when you look at the schools are you going to be looking that inputs. Into the education process beyond what comes from the state so that we can to segregate those and then see a full picture of what might of had an affected in addition to what might have come from state. Senator we will and this is what's really nice about doing this piece in part with a very large data collection of kind of that scale maybe a little bit beyond what some other states have done with case studies as will be able to look at just that the full picture of resources on the quantitative side going in and then part of the qualitative process is to talk about for lack of a better term kind of what's the special sauce in the community do they have a lot of volunteer hours do they you know they're there can be things that occur that maybe are perfectly replicable everywhere else but you're trying to think of with the full picture of resources available to the school and and really what's making them successful all right and I think this is my last question is so open we are choosing school districts that have done well I'm sorry to say in spite of the odds rather than. Somebody not having change the odds. If we pick up that school district and just listen it's a school district that has a high immigrant population Leslie de queen and into queen I so you heard joke around their necks in default. It and according to the R. metrics you're doing very well that's a high immigrant population. A but other than that they might nearest the same socio economic. But I status for demographics as say somebody in another school district that is not doing really well. And I've heard people say I hear this if this can happen in say de queen it can happen anywhere to be happening anywhere. But I think there's a real outstanding factor that I would like to know if we're gonna take these kind of things and to pop into consideration. When you have an a high immigrant. Population. Most people don't come here just to sit still they're highly highly motivated. And so many times and I've been here you know 23 generations say as I call kind of get Americanizing gets like everybody else so will there be when we make these comparisons with those kind of things be taken into account. Senator part of I think on the selection process side is trying to make sure when we visit schools that they as I mentioned earlier I think. The data that we're getting from them is kind of replicable and and scalable to other communities so if for some reason we identify committee that just doesn't look like other communities we need to make sure we have that context and and I understand that and then make decisions about what what that means that we have not come close to selecting the schools yet so I have no idea who we are going to select right now but part of the process is really trying to make sure that again they're not such out liars in any demographic category that they just don't represent any other place in the state you're you're really because we don't have the full sample size you've got to be protective of that representation and so I in cases like of and I just described in I'm just using this as an example because it could be something other than ET AL let's just say if it's AL and students and and 1:00 ET old school district are doing very very well will be able to compare that to say a school district who has had a high yield population for a much longer time I think that would be an important thing to notice to make those comparisons because it might give us the ability to say all yes we can look for the school district to continue to go for the students or we may be able to say well the students you know are not progressing so we need to we can maybe transposable what we learned in the school district on the other with the light factors is because I I I I I think that we're going to have to get real specific in our work about English language learners just as we do for other students thank you thanks madam chair. Thank you madam chair. And you'll probably not here the statement again but it's senator Chesterfield percent Murdock in our all agreeing on the same thing so once again grow we need to take a C. out you're going to miss some schools that are really doing something good that's Mike in them have improved greatly but on the other side is you've had a school that's been a Hey and now they're of baby so they're not doing something that they should have been doing because they failed but you're going to keep cells and so is that necessarily correct because they were at a at the top and then now something strange and they've been less performing so their growth is declined so are you going to include does but they're still going to meet the criteria so there's lots of things that we need to think about when you're looking at that but the other thing that's got me pause twice and you've said it is that you're not getting a big enough sample to really give us cleared data comparative data so are we base in a study on data that's gonna be flogged on are we going to try to do work on our education system and we don't have the actual correct data that we need to be working with. So the represent Carol thanks for the questions that I I'd just. Does so Mar seem is not that we are providing data that is in statistically sound the data set the reusing includes all 1200 plus schools within the state of Arkansas. And certainly based on the criteria that we presented today we can provide those lists of schools I think for the sake of the resources available the constraint of the study and understanding the qualitative school based investigations the deeper dive into the systems understanding some of the matter is that under Elian center Chesterfield had brought out we only have this to kind of been with to get to 12 to 16 schools we can certainly provide the full list of schools that meet certain variations are stratification the criteria that would be what you might defined as a Representative sample 15 plus percent of the state that would meet those samples but again it just given the constraints of the work that we're doing and being able to profile some of the case studies and as Justin had said being able to identify some of the common threads that they come across this 12 to 16 schools that are working with those populations and are seeing 6 asks that's really the as I understand the the the thrust of this part of the study is being able to pull out those elements of those programs across this 12 to 16 schools that the state might use as the the starting point to consider and think about how my you offer direction support this to other schools in the state to pick up on and work with those kinds of populations the 1 thing I want to be sure is that we are never going to have data that doesn't give us the full picture and then we make decisions that are flawed because actually we didn't have to all the data that we need no I I absolutely appreciate that point Representative and that is from a quantitative perspective that is not the case so 1 just as an example of this in the scope of this study will do this 2012 to 16 school deep dive investigations completely the state's provocative to want to replicate that process 3 or 45 times over to feel like they got to the place where the where you all got that represent. And but just given the scope of what we're doing in the tight time line that were on we can only go to that deep dive for 12 to 16 schools thank you. Thank you madam chair. I've heard you discuss the different filters that it can be used in looking at the data and I'm wondering specially since. The whole purpose of of the adequacy studies is for us to I mean not just the study you're doing but the study that we do every biennium is to make the determinations on allocation of resources and and I'm. Troubled when I hear that it's just a given that a school's or wealthy schools we we get reports all the time that tell us that there are school districts that that are not wealthy that are doing extremely well and I think that those are some of the best practices that we need to be looking at so is one of the filters looking at school wealth and extrapolating work from that house successful or how efficient they've been able to be because I you know I just looked at it just to. Very quickly going through the list of A schools in the state and I see districts or school flamer Cory to clean Scranton Bismarck Concorde these are not wealthy parts of the state I think we need to know what is it that they are doing. With with with limited financial resources to be able to to be efficient in terms of being a schools is that one of the filters that is included in looking at the 12 to 16 schools or school districts. Thank you for the question represented to there's 2 parts of the process the first one here on site 12 so several of the school and district controls one of those controls is the finances so essentially what right through and the rest of the west a team will be doing is holding constant those variables that are listed under school and district of trolls meaning there's no influence of those things on outcome and then basically looking at growth over all the second please that this will be taken into account is cure under the application of filters or sorry the stratification of schools or sorry yes that's correct on the run the application of filters in which will be looking at applying some type of per pupil expenditure ceilings so what we're not looking for is a school that has access to an extraordinary amount of resources above and beyond those other ones that as sometimes just makes referred to as unicorn schools were not looking for those okay so. Okay with thank you that that does answer my question because I you know I I know that we have heard reports before that there's not a there is no positive correlation between dollars spent and and student success but it would really help us as we're moving forward and hopefully. Not and I assume when you reference case studies you're you're talking about in measure best. Best practice that's really what that's what we need is that kind of data that kind of information yes we do need to know where we're coming up short but we also need to know what the best practices are out there of being able to take limited resources and may be creating a unicorn even had a limited resources so thank you very much for that answer represent just quickly as a reminder and unlike Amanda brown has usually here with me and has every section of this whole or P. and response memorized I don't remember the exact number but there is as this model gets worked further through there's a hole efficiency lands and and specific part of the modeling that will go forward which is looking at some of the efficiency peace. Senator Sturch. Thank you ma'am 2 guys I just have I guess 1 basic question that I may move on to second 1 but with all the discussion that we had today all the qualitative data that you're gonna be analyzing 1216 school model schools and what to be looking form relationships we be able then to break it down to be quantitatively statistically significant to show us this works this does not work this is to Stickley statistically significant relationship or this is not I mean I understand the difference between qualitative and quantitative that when I want to know then is from the data that you will be getting from the schools who will be looking at can you then say you know this is significant and you ought to look at this. So we will be using this as one piece of the information in the broader study around what are the appropriate programs intervention for these population so we're looking at national research and other data sets so in the end what we're to be doing is with all this confirmatory information saying this is where with all the study it leads us to believe these are the types of interventions you want to see from this 12 to 16 you know you're not gonna have that precise piece but it's. It's the Arkansas lands on the overall picture of what works we don't want to leave we don't is looking actually say this is what you should do and then we can visit told 16 schools and they don't do that for X. or Y. reason so it it gives us the context to look at the overall picture and then I keep hearing then the reference to within this constraint timeline are within the constraint of you know whatever whatever. I'm kind of torn okay and this may be a direction to the chairs as well we started this process nearly a year ago and we dragged our state as well I'm not gonna you know the date that that you know for 6 months then we dragged our feet before this contractors and everything issued so but you also send then signed a contract saying you can get this done within the time line phase so do you need an extension is are do you think then if I guess my my question is if Representative Lowery is so concerned with you know we don't have a Representative sample and as many others are if you need time then to get a bigger sample it tell us or at least be honest with us to say if we had had a 4 year instead of the condensed timeline we could have done it this way or whatever center this is exactly the approach we put in our proposal originally in part because the scale that you need to go to is is just talk about you know just within any almost timeline you're you're you're probably not going to get there we okay doing 16 schools is gonna be about double what most other states have done as they as they later in case studies it with in their approach so I think Marilyn who's done this at about 8 we're we're doing this another state right now it's about 9 so we're actually getting to a lot more schools and so we are not outside at all what we propose and we will get that done we would never in that kind of overall study like this said you know let's go visit 100 schools the first year it's just not really manageable and we're not really sure you get a lot of better information doing that just because you can call it statistically significant because in the end we're gonna get good representation and be comparing that sure to this other information right we're not just getting the information from this part of the study okay thank you Mr thing and check. Thank you. All right. We have more questions I don't think from our committee. Thank you all we will see you in April April and you'll find that you know what will be presenting some findings so you won't just have to listen to me anymore so thank you very very much we appreciate it look forward to what's the matter. Representative Murdock to do have something. Of all right thank you very much we'll see you in April. Okay next on our agenda. Is miss Nell Mrs nail Smith. Who is the are administrator research and data analyst but I hate to tell you. Where are you now. Okay there. In down here I hate to tell you that miss Nell is moving on from our illustrious group. And we all make cry. But she is going to the health department she has a new opportunity. Starting a new chapter in her life. I'm excited for but we should hate to lose you as you can tell in here we love you. But. Which this is her last presentation we we owe her a really great round of applause. What it's like our family is going off to college there's something moving on yeah and but we will miss you and we appreciate everything you've done 30 but you've been just absolutely super to work with we trust you we know you're smart and put it all together just so Bruce and I can function in this position but we wish you well in your next and next chapter we thank you very much we do wish you well so we're gonna treat critique you really well today thank you will. I don't get a pass on the last one. You're what you're you're you've got a great job force and we will miss you very much so thank you well it's it's it's been a pleasure working on this adequacy study and any research questions that you guys have challenged us with act you know I'm I love learning and so it's always been super fun to trying to find out the answers to to all your questions so I will miss it amend sleep. So. I'm Neal Smith with the bureau of legislative research and I'm going to be presenting the resource allocation report this is kind of a monster report so and we've broken it up into 3 parts but the main main purpose of this is to compare districts actual expenditures with the funding levels that they're provided through the matrix. You've got a copy of the matrix in front of you. Looks like that and so I'm gonna go over how the matrix is constructed so you have some context as we go through a few of the staffing components today. We're gonna be talking about the top third of the matrix today school staffing so these are the teachers and counselors and principles A who work in the individual schools and will present part 2 and part 3 will I want. But at. They will be presented at part 2 and part 3 of the analysis in the coming weeks in those reports will be looking at school resources such as instructional materials and technology and then district resources such as transportation and central office. So this report will examine district spending and staffing patterns we're comparing the matrix funding levels with the district's actual expenses and the matrix is what you might think of as the legislative intent so we're comparing the intense with the actual practice. And this analysis is meant to inform your judgment about how well the matrix is meeting districts needs I your you'll also get some good advice from that from your consultants who may tell you to go to a completely different way but we frequently hear that the matrix is a funding model and not a spending model and superintendents point out that each district has different needs and the funding was designed to provide flexibility for those needs and FOR districts to spend the money according to what to their particular needs so all of that is absolutely true and what we're looking for in this act and houses is the overall what the overall patterns are telling us. So when there's a mismatch between the matrix funding levels and the actual spending patterns it may mean that you want to do something to encourage districts to spend differently but it also may mean that the matrix matrix itself isn't right and that's of course your judgment call the matrix isn't going to fit all districts the same way but what are the overall spending patterns and what are they telling you about what districts are needing. So I would encourage you to think of expenditures is just one single measure it's a and a measure of whether schools are receiving funding to adequately meet their needs and expenditures can be it can be useful information but the meaning behind the numbers that are not just black and white. District expenditures can help illustrate. What a district needs so obviously expenditures are gonna reflect the basic resource resources schools that need to operate effectively. They're also going to tell you what the district once so one high school principal shocked me by telling me that this that he thinks the state needs to establish a cap on athletic expenditures he complained that the school board into the ethically improves every athletic expenditure put to them out but they they really him and hop over at the prospect of purchasing like new math curriculum so purchasing decisions reflect what a school district once. It also reflects what a school district can afford so the district has higher transportation needs or higher maintenance and operation costs in other districts it may not be able to to pay its teachers at the same level but it district that pays its teachers lower salaries probably doesn't need good teachers any less than a district that's able to spend more so expenditures reflect what districts can afford. They also represent the the lack or lack of our presence of other funding sources so we're gonna talk about foundation funding expenditures and frequently those spending patterns reflect other types of funding that districts can use so low expenditure of foundation funding to pay for say school nurses may just mean that the district relies on other kinds of funding to pay for that resource. And sometimes districts have access to resources without having to actually spend money for those resources so for example will talk about mental health services in a minute and much of the mental health services provided in schools is paid for 3 students individual insurance so when we look at district extended expenditures for mental health services there's not really a lot there so in that case the low expenditures really aren't reflective of the district's needs. So this report examines staffing expenditure patterns among different district groupings. We'll look at the spending patterns of traditional school districts compared with those of open enrollment charter schools and will look we'll be looking at spending patterns based on district size in poverty level. And we're. Are there differences you might consider adjusting not not foundation funding which is provided to everyone equally but other supplemental funding for example if you find small districts are struggling in a particular area you might consider addressing it through isolated funding in other words an inequity created by foundation funding could be corrected using other funds or other legislative mechanisms and adjusting them the matrix or foundation funding is not the only option. So the purpose of this report is looking at how districts spend their foundation funding but we're also going to zoom out to show you how they're spending other types of funding on the items in the matrix so you'll see how districts are spending foundation funding but will also see those spending patterns in the larger context of overall spending on those same resources. So there about 10 different school level staff positions it in in the part of the matrix that we're discussing today and the report goes through each one likely I'm going to limit my discussion to just 4 of those but once you have a sense of how the the report is structured you can leave through and we can discuss any questions that you may have about any other position. But just to start us off 30 some high points when we look at the districts what districts are spending from foundation funding on the staff in the matrix. We see that they're spending at or above the matrix amount per student for about half of the different positions and less than the matrix amount for the other half and that's just that's just foundation funds but when we look at spending on all funding. Spending of all funding districts spent above the matrix amount for all positions so they're spending more than the matrix amount for all of the staff but there the some of the expenditures are made using federal funds or categorical funds. So large districts pay higher salaries across the board and usually have more financially efficient staff to student ratios and those 2 things tend to go hand in hand. Districts that are able to stretch staff across a larger number of students are generally going to be able to pay the staff they have more. Charter schools generally spent less per student for instructional staff another certified non administrative staff when compared with traditional districts but they spend more per student on administrative clerical staff and traditional districts. High poverty districts spend more per student on most school staff compared with lower poverty districts a high poverty districts relied more heavily on other at 9 foundation funds to do that so they relied heavily on federal funding or in a self funding which we now call yes a funding resisting that to the end. As the Arkansas as per student at school staffing expenditures fall below the national average in every category tracked at the federal level with one exception and that's instructional staff support. That federal category of expenditures includes professional development instructional staff support and most notably library expenses. Arkansas has more librarians in our students for our student population that nearly all other states we'll talk about librarians in a minute. Just to remind you about the basics of foundation funding in the matrix. Condition funding provides 3.$2000000000 to school districts and charter schools for about 56 percent of their total funding so well it's a very important source of funding it's by no means their only source. The pursuit foundation funding funding amount that's established in statute for foundation funding is based on the matrix formula. We call the matrix a formula but it's really sort of just a list of ingredients that schools need and the costs of each the matrix lists the staffing resources needed for a district of 500 students. And the school stepping portion of the matrix includes. The type of school staff needed the classroom teachers special education teachers principals. The number of each type of staff needed for a school of 500 students. And the cost of those employees in the form of a salary and benefits package. So here's how the matrix math works for school staffing. When we look at the spending and staffing patterns of districts I'm gonna be talking a lot about full time equivalents or if TV's per 500 students I'm gonna be talking about salaries and per student expenditures and the reason for that is that these are the components on which the matrix is based so so to arrive at the per student funding amount for each type of school staff the matrix uses this calculation. Number of F. T. E.'s needed for a school of 500 students. Times the salary and benefits package which is essentially the cost of those employees for the most most part school level staff this the salary and benefits package used is that of a teacher salary it would 60 5000 811 in 1819 and we call the teacher salary but it's really it the salary that used for a variety of school staff including school nurses guidance counselors librarians and the only school level positions in the matrix that we calculate with a different salary are the principal and the school secretary. After we get the total cost of the staff for the school of 500 students we divide by 500 students to get the per student cost. So the first step we'll talk about a classroom teacher's classroom teachers are really the big ticket item in the matrix the matrix provides and your lease at $3300 per student for classroom teachers which is a little less than half the matrix. They're nearly 25 classroom teachers funded through the matrix so that's 25 teachers for each prototypical school of 500 students and that number was designed to allow districts to meet class size limits in the state accreditation standards. So there's an assumption in the matrix about the number of students in each grade level in Kate through 12 indicator 12 district or school and the number of teachers needed it is based on the class size limits set in the accreditation standards. So for example this section in the matrix is that a district of 500 students will have 40 kindergartners the class size Max's 20 students so for the 40 kindergartners you need to have 2 classes of 20 students each so you'll need to teachers that's kind of the basic math. So this is a chart that you'll see throughout the report after each line of the matrix and again I'm not gonna go through each line but I'll explain some of the charts that you'll see again and again so you get the idea and you can leave through the report for any school staff that I don't addressed directly. So across this chart you'll see the matrix amount as the red dotted line and that's the matrix amounts provided for the 201819 classroom teachers and as I mentioned earlier we've broken districts spending down in 3 ways first by type at comparing traditional school districts with open enrollment charter schools in by district size well which is important because larger districts tend to have larger schools and larger class sizes and they're able to achieve some financial efficiencies that are more difficult for districts with smaller populations. Then the final category is poverty level so the percentage of a district student population eligible for free or reduced part price lunch and we decided that districts into 3 poverty categories Wishard used to distribute in a self funding yes a funding this breakdown is important because HIGHPOVERTY districts have some different needs from school from districts that are have more affluent population but it's also important to because the HIGHPOVERTY districts have access to different types of funds they receive more ESA funds and they receive more federal title one funds than wealthier districts so one of the things we see with some parts of the matrix. It's a different reliance on some of these other funds to pay for a portion of the staff and resources that foundation funding is designed to cover. So another thing to keep in mind is that when I provide information by district size or poverty level I'm including only traditional districts charter school spending is is only reflected in the charter school category on the left hand side of the charts. So for classroom teachers. You can see that from the chart that traditional school district spent a little over $3000 per student from foundation funds I'm classroom teachers and that's the dark blue part of each bar. The light blue part of the bar shows what districts collectively spent on classroom teachers from other funding other than foundation funding so this would include any federal funds districts use for classroom teachers in any categorical funds so in total. Districts are spending well above the foundation amount for classroom teachers but when considering just what they spent on classroom teachers from foundation funds they spent less than the foundation amount provided. Charter school spent less than the foundation funding amount even when considering their spending from all funding sources and I'll come back to the start a minute but the report provides some data that might be helpful in understanding these differences between charter schools and international districts. So for every line of the matrix I provided the number of staff per 500 students and I prepped provided the average salary for each position and these are these are staff counts and salaries paid using all funding sources so not just foundation funding but it gives you an idea of of why some of the per student spending patterns are what they are. School districts collectively employed 29.5 classroom teachers per 500 students and charter schools employed just a little more than that so they have roughly similar numbers of teaching staff for their student populations but districts and charter schools pay very different teaching salaries charter schools are significantly below those paid by school districts. So why is that. For each line of the matrix provided information on in the report on the number of charter schools and the number of schools districts and charter schools that have waivers from statutory requirements or accreditation standards so one of the reasons charter school salaries are so much lower than school districts is because most charter schools had waivers from paying the statutory minimum teacher salary. And that's compared with just to districts that had this waiver so the lower charter school salaries result in charter schools paying less for for at least for student for classroom teachers. So another important number to keep in mind is the teacher salary in the matrix. I mentioned earlier that the salary and benefits package in the matrix it is 65811 for most staff can with within that amount is a base salary of 52386 so if we strip away all the health insurance retirement and employer match for Medicare and other taxes the base salary that were left with in the matrix is about $52400 the classroom teacher statewide the average teacher salary that districts and charter schools actually paid is about $3400 less than what's in the matrix it's just under $49000. So go back to our spending chart and look at spending by district size. Large districts spend a little more per student on classroom teachers than smaller districts those big districts spend more per student from foundation funding and they spent Morse more per student in total I'm classroom teachers. If we look at ease and salaries we see that large districts have fewer teachers per 500 students and smaller districts but they pay higher salaries so the large districts are able to stretch their teachers across larger numbers of students which is financially more efficient. That may be part of the reason that they can pay higher salaries. And finally will look at per student spending of districts when they're broken out by poverty level. In this last break out you can see the HIGHPOVERTY district spent less per student than other than the other 2 categories one looking just at their spending a foundation funds HIGHPOVERTY district spent about $2700 per student compared with $3000 per student spent by the lower poverty districts but overall high poverty districts spend more per student nearly $4000 per student when looking at total spending and that's compared with about $3600 or $3700 per student in lower poverty districts and this is in part due to the fact that HIGHPOVERTY districts and other funding sources that they can use for teacher salaries. So high poverty districts had higher numbers of teachers at per 500 students 37 compared with 29 and 30 teachers in the lower poverty categories but high poverty districts generally paid at lower salaries. So that's what what did you on there with classroom teachers at but I'm gonna skip ahead to library media specialist yeah which starts on page 30 of your report and the reason I selected this position to discuss is because so many districts and charter schools have waivers from the state librarian requirements. So the standards call for small schools to hire halftime librarian. So this requirement applies to about 30 percent of all schools. Schools with 3300 to 1500 students are required to hire one full time librarian and this requirement applies to about 69 percent of schools and the very largest schools the last one percent are required to have 2 full time librarians. So the matrix arrived at the number of it F. T. E.'s for school of 500 students by determining the number of librarians needed statewide legislators calculated the number of librarians needed to meet the accreditation requirements based on each existing schools enrollment at the time the matrix was created. Then they divided the number by the total number of schools so the total number of librarians needed divided by the total number of schools. And we arrive at 8.85 FTE librarians per 500 students. The salary and benefits package for library media specialist is the same as classroom teachers 65811 per FTE. So this slide shows per student spending patterns like we saw previously with classroom teachers but this is for library media specialist and you can see that for this position districts paid more than the $12 per student at the matrix provided. They paid $121 per student from foundation funds and another $14 for students from all other types of funds charter schools on the other hand collectively spent about a total of about $9 per student for library media specialist charter school spending was so low because all but one charter school had a waiver from the requirement that they employ librarians. Most charter school simply just don't have librarians at all but charter schools are not the only ones to have waivers from the librarian requirement 43 districts also had waivers from the librarian staffing requirements and in at least one school that's 18 percent of all school districts that have permission to not hire the required staffing level so in fact librarians are the staff that that districts and charters have the most waivers for and one thing to note is that districts in charters seem to be using this waiver differently charter schools use the waiver to avoid employing librarians at all for the most part but school districts appear to use the waiver to hire librarians at levels below what's required so they might be using a waiver to have only a part time librarian in a school where full time librarian might otherwise be required. It's also possible that districts are using their waivers to avoid hiring a librarian for particular schools. In the end most of the districts that have a waiver from the librarian standard still recording librarian expenditures at levels a book about what they're funded through the matrix so even with the waivers districts appear to be spending more than what's funded in the matrix and you can see from the chart that there are significant differences in per student spending patterns when looking at districts by size or poverty level. This table shows a similar pattern what we saw earlier with classroom teachers the differences among district groups are a little more dramatic so you can see small districts pay library media specialist a lower salary the large districts but they employ more librarians for 500 students and that's reflective of the librarians needed for schools and small districts small districts tend to have smaller schools and they need more than point 85 librarians to meet the accreditation standards in 201819 small districts needed an average of 1.25 librarians per 500 students just to meet the accreditation standards based on their existing school configurations so the receiving funding for point 85 librarians but they need 1.25 librarians to meet the standards. Large districts received the same funding level of funding for point 85 librarians but they needed a little less than that amount to meet the standards so if we look at the salaries again we see that large district and pay significantly higher salaries about 60 360 $3000 compared with 40 $7000 a small districts and low poverty districts pay higher salaries than high poverty districts statewide librarians are among the higher paid certified staff and the average salary that districts paid librarians is nearly $3000 above the salary the matrix so just for comparison the average salary for classroom teachers is about 30 $400 below the salary the matrix but the average salary for librarians is above the salary the matrix. The fact that librarians are more expensive for districts add maybe another reason that that for the high number of districts and charters seeking waivers FOR meeting librarian staffing requirements. So this slide shows how Arkansas librarian staffing pattern compares with other states Arkansas has one almost one FTP librarian per 500 students compared with the national average that's less than half of that we have the third highest number of librarians per 500 students of all states in Washington DC and part of that maybe that we're one of only 19 states that have a requirement regarding the staffing of school librarians. Actually the number of school librarians has been decreasing for the last decade nationwide that the D. the librarians decreased about 28 percent over the last decade and in Arkansas the number of librarians has dropped less than one percent. So the next school 7 going to talk about is the guidance counselor. At disease accreditation standards call for districts to employ one guidance counselor for every 450 students. Prevent the foundation funding amount we've got to translate that to our prototypical school of 500 students so the matrix funds 1.11 guidance counselor for every 500 students the cost of the guidance counselors based on the teacher salary and benefits package of 60 5000 $811. And just like with classroom teachers the library media specialist and the library media specialist the salary package includes a base salary of about 52400. And again the and the just like with library specialist the actual average salary the districts and charter schools are paying is above the average salary in the matrix by about $5800 above the salary. So that helps explain why we're generally seeing higher expending for guidance counselors above what's provided in the matrix district spent more than the matrix amount both foundation funding and when looking at total spending from all funding sources. Charter schools followed a similar pattern with classroom teachers and librarians where they spent less than districts did and less than the matrix funded amount and that's in part because again most charter schools had waivers from this requirement to a at 2 employer counselor for every 450 students so in comparison just 9 school districts had a waiver. One thing we heard about frequently when we visited schools was the new law that requires guidance counselors to spend 90 percent of their time on student services and 10 percent or less on administrative services several principles told us that this is going to be a challenge forgotten guidance counselors to meet. So we also asked the question about this allocation of time an art teacher survey and 74 randomly selected schools we visited we invited teachers to complete an online service the survey and from that we received completed surveys from 44 guidance counselors. Because the current school year is the first year in which the law is in effect we couldn't ask about a full year of actual or past practice so we ask guidance counselors to estimate the time the amount of time they anticipated spending on student services. Only about 46 percent of our respondents anticipated that they would meet the demand of the new law to spend 90 percent of their time or more a student services and that shown in that greenish gray greenish gray pi pieces. So that leads me to an issue we've heard of a lot of concern about nets mental health this is a topic we heard about over and over again under visits and schools impact to schools in past years so we asked some questions are superintendent survey and when we visited schools we ask principles about how well their schools addressing those mental health issues. And first let me just clarify that while guidance counselors can provide some support to students who are experiencing some of emotional distress they're not providing mental health therapy that's a job for licensed professional counselors and similarly trained professionals so does the recommends that this school districts have one therapist in their schools for every 500 students some districts employed therapists but for the most part these are counselors that are that are working for outside agencies they come to the schools to see individual students and their paid by billing the student's health insurance either of Medicaid or the student's private insurance because that's the way the services are provided between therapists and student it's not possible to measure districts need for mental health services by their expenditures so we wanted to get a sense of districts access to these services so we asked for the number of therapists working in their schools. And then we use the data to calculate a therapist to student ratio for every school district and charter school. We had 37 districts and 7 charter schools that reported no therapists working in their school. And less than half of the school districts and charter schools reported therapist levels that would would meet the recommended therapist to student ratio so larger districts which is a surprise to me larger districts were less likely to meet the recommends ratios and smaller districts and HIGHPOVERTY districts were more likely an affluent districts to meet the ratios. So we had some very enlightening conversations with principles about mental health issues and how they're dealing with them in their schools so I'm just gonna share some of the highlights and repeated themes from what they told us. So because the mental health therapy provided in schools is paid for through individual students insurance and provided by community based providers several principles told us there'd vulnerable to changes in Medicaid policies or in the business decisions of the community based providers for example one principal told us that a day treatment center in their community close several years ago after changing Medicaid policy. So previously students with extreme behavior issues attended school and attended school at the a day treatment center. Rather than going to the pub to the regular public school they receive services there until they could re enter public school. When the day treatment center closed students receiving services return to the public school. The principal told us that her students behaviors intensified dramatically she described it this way we're running a day treatments and at a treatment center here that's how intense and severe these behaviors are. Several principles told us there's simply not enough therapists in the community to serve all students who need help. Others told us that even when therapists are available the high turnover in therapists from one year to the next disrupts the care students receive. Another barrier principles mentioned is getting parental consent for their child to receive services part of the reason parents declined to consent to services maybe the cost that they incur in terms of being billed for the services if they're uninsured or for the co pays and deductibles that if they are insured and some principles told us that they have an agreement with mental health provider with mental health provider that therapists that we'll see all patients regardless of the students payor source or the providers have agreed to a percentage of steps students they'll see as charity care. Some principals told us that the the therapist they work with can see only students on our kids are Medicaid they can't see privately insured patients at school. And finally principals frequently talked about the training for school staff and sometimes they talked about in terms of school staff need more professional development to help them address their students needs but other times they talked about training as if to say they just aren't trained to deal with these issues and really just need professionals who are. So the last US staff the staff is the last step position that I'm gonna mention is a basket professional services that the matrix refers to as other student support services very descriptive. Position at the positions in this category include speech pathologists. Occupational therapists psychologists and and psychological examiners and school is that social workers the matrix provides point 72 F. to ease per 500 students and this is really an and number based on the total amount of F. T. E.'s needed for guidance counselors school nurses and these other students and other students at services so the matrix provides 2.550 ease for that that grouping of of staff. 1.11 F. to ease for counselors point 67 for nurses and the ramp remaining amount as this point 72 F. to ease for other student support services. The reason that I'm mentioning this category of services to US because overall the increasing district expenditures for the services over the last few years overall districts and charter schools have increased their expenditures for the services by 36 percent between 2011 and 2019. And that's compared with an increase in total expenditures of about 13 percent and the vast majority of that increase has been in special education expenditures expenditures for these types of services when they're provided for students with disabilities increased by 49 percent in that time frame. And part of that increase is due to an increase in special education student population which increased 18 percent in that time frame compared with a 2 percent increase in the total student population. So this slide shows the differences in person expenditures for student support services districts and charter school spent less per student on student support services when just they're expenditures after using foundation funding but they spent well over the matrix amount when considering expenditures from all types of funds. I will talk about other funding sources in the next slide this slide shows that the large districts spend more per student from foundation funding on students support services and HIGHPOVERTY districts spend more per student from funding other than foundation funding. So this slide shows the different types of funds that districts and charter schools used to pay for these other student support services and for the staff that we've already talked about classroom teachers and guidance counselors librarians districts tend to use foundation funding to cover the vast majority of those expenditures but for this category of services and nurses is another example of this districts used foundation funding to pay for only 35 percent of their total expenditures. Districts rely more heavily on federal funds including federal special education funds title one funds Medicaid funds and districts also used federal funds to pay for nearly half of the cost of the services. So I'm gonna stop there and I'm happy to answer trying to answer any question that you might have come across as you look through the report. Good FOR D. think will remember all that. A lot of information lots of good stuff I hope you have a written down or keep I have it written down okay we do have some questions here one from us senator Chesterfield let me go thank you madam chair now I shall miss you and thank you so much for your professionalism. It's just to be applauded I appreciate you very much could you tell me where the funding Eastwood ministry to salaries did I miss that or well in in is it out or is it considered a part of teacher salaries no this is this is school level salary so their principles in this report and it's at the back let me say it's on page principal salaries is on page 51. I'm and if you sometimes if you include curriculum administrators or or instructional facilitators if you count that as as administrative. And your to 51 again. I'm sorry. When the floor I'm sorry yes report is in in your binder. So we spending more or less my administrative salaries and then the matrix both the charter and and. English school level and district spent for principals and and central office expenditures and superintendents and all the all the people that are in central office will be in a later report and so this is just dealing with school level staffing and so the principles that the matrix funding amount is 100 $98 and school districts are spending 100 $94 from foundation funding in another $225 from all funding sources charter school spent at 200 29 some more than the the matrix amount from foundation funding on principles so they're spending moral principles at the. I charter level that's right less some teacher salaries that's right thank you. Thank you Mr chair B. Smith I'm looking at slide number 6 and the. Fourth. Bullet point down where it says hi party districts spend more per student in on most school staff compared the lower level of law my question here it has to do with so they spent 9 foundation of funds on salaries soon to make up what they did not have or did not to suspend the I guess from the foundation formula we're talking about at schools that. I HIGHPOVERTY schools hi Barbie school spent. Are you following me here it was placed. Classroom teachers are yes sometimes my classroom teachers and and the example you use that those other funds such as in a self funds or and federal or the or the word to be the letters I forgotten. So what but when they choose to use those funds which we allow them to do that those funds then on going into a salary schedule that is a re currying amount is it not or is it or is it something that is. I guess optional later on like but I'm not I'm going to indeed hired of a library a laissez. If they're using an SL going on how is it going on is that money that's going on to the salary schedule they're not paid out side of that salary schedule or are they use in it in some way that would not require it to be recurring every year. I'm I'm I'm now going back in by an SL report at the there are for an allowable use for in a self funding is salaries above the minimum but I don't think that is supplemental I think that what they're saying is we're gonna hire a teacher and pay that teacher using an SL funds but we have to prove it to the department that that is going to be a teacher that we need to reduce no sorry there to to tax there's one that's. Reducing class out class that student to teacher ratios and then there's one for paying bonuses of up so I think in the case of the bonuses it is that yes not recurring right right it may not be recurring I mean I think every school district is going to have its own policy about that but that yeah I'm not sure that they're not beholden to have it Riker right is if it's if it's a bonus I mean I I don't think that would be the reason they were calling the bonus so nobody's obligated from year to year but it's I just want to be sure we have an understanding that if you're hiring me as an English teacher that I'm paid or not paid from an SL funds a part of my salary because that's a recurring thing. So. I I I guess I'm not clear on so what kind of teacher what do the 81 might say on the teacher salary schedule might it be a teacher just an extra teacher that you would just say the year we're not going to hire you next year that kind of thing I see somebody going no no no I the audience thought about this and I don't know. I'd. Maybe a district level policy yeah but it. Okay. This is the you is is it is it okay for someone the audience and things like that when they. Give me an answer is not to say and I'm just I don't want to put them on this on the spot I'm not trying to do that either but I want the question is when you use funds beyond the foundation funding for teacher salaries. Art is the money be in use in such a way that it has to it is a recurring expense every year on the salary schedule or is it not. What I will say that that this these expenditures do include you know. Bonus payments for classroom teachers yeah so yes so for example the high high priority district the bonus payments that come from the state some some year if if a district qualifies one year but doesn't qualify the next that teachers going to get that bonus one year but not the next it doesn't go into the into the salary schedule. But I feel like I'm not Mrs airman a hearing you one thing that would be on the up to the school district how they do that and and if they're not getting the money they can't find it so but it's not gonna creature salary schedule if it's above the salary schedule it would be something more like a bonus for an added. And I'm not sure how each one does that the number of school board to all. Okay I I don't know. Okay so you are you are you saying to me and I feel like maybe I'm just have been you know of a brain problem with this right now if I get hired I'm in I'm in an English teacher I'm on the salary schedule that the school district may or may not. Pay me more our every teacher more by taking some money from an SL and given everybody on the salary schedule a $200 increase. That's what I'm trying to figure out is that a liable. And once you put it on there you can't just take it back is what I'm saying it becomes and it becomes a recurring expense. You may correct me but I think that that's not and SO anymore the CSA is that right yes yes but some of that has to be qualified you have to apply for some of that money in mind Roman that. 44 then I think you're thinking of the matching grant matching grants for some of that but I know but I mean I would think that you could you know I don't know how they would allow that to be money every year because you might not get that same amount each year and maybe more or less so I don't know that's up to the school district and I I can't answer that question. On okay thank you. Thank you madam chair now I just have 2 quick questions and I want to echo what senator Chesterfield and just personally thank you for all you've done for me and FOR the staff and legislation general you've been great so anything I've asked you are always there so I appreciate it I want to go back to the discussion on library media specialist you compare this kind of with what you saw across the national average with this story the states as well can you kind of give us an idea idea then of the discrepancy between wire we almost you know one and everybody else almost half so is it because library specialist are now becoming more of the media signed are they doing more the computer lab. Things are they do they are they are the house is changing I guess the rose responsibilities or was the discrepancy I think it has to do with the fact that we still have a requirement where we've got you at a school district has set our school has to hire a license librarian add a full time licensed librarian so on theirs and they're and many other states that that don't have any kind of requirements at all at all okay and and sometimes if they do it's it's a more generalized requirement like you have to have a library and generally or you have to have a library library program generally it's not as specific as arms yeah you have to have this level of FTP and there's on page. On page 35 yes ma'am and you'll see that that I've got a broken out by the librarians this is at the top of the page and library staff support. And you'll see we were ranked very high in librarians but not so much in library support Sir staff so I think what is happened in Arkansas is we've we've got this requirement for library and so that's where school districts are putting their money they don't have enough money to then hire support staff where's other states are kind of flip flopping that. So do you see then that it could be that that the library and has taken on different responsibilities of rose and we're paying it still as a librarian but they might be also running the computer Lambert the matter also be doing other things beyond just in the library yes I'm sure they're doing at a wide variety of things I think I think the differences we have a certified librarian requirements we have you know a master's level unless the certified teacher who's who we've hired for the for the the library and then there's just not enough staff and not enough left over for support staff where as I think maybe other states are probably relying on. Less on the full fully certified librarians and an increasingly on certified staff of excuse me at library support staff sure and then my second question was kind of going back then to some of the statistics that you put out there and maybe with the support services but you mentioned Medicaid reimbursements and so forth I wanted to see if anything then with the surveyor in conversation or research came up about the changing formula because amongst all this then we also did change some of the formula as far as what we would reimburse what 80 with I mean would reimburse you know there is a change in that equation it was gonna be up to this amount and then be on that would reimburse a certain percentage to is that why then were saying the discrepancy with you know expenditures from the school level going up I mean I know you said the 18 second reason special education population went up 18 percent the expenses and went way up the on that so I'm trying to figure out then why it why the way up increase on the expenditure I and I can't explain all of it I think I definitely think the increase in student this the specialist in population is a is a good portion of it it may be that were you know we're we're picking up at different kinds of issues that may not even be special lead issues but our art are at art you know the dyslexia intervention maybe picking up something that's causing services for not necessarily special ed kids but for other types of students I'm just not able to explain all of it thank you ma'am thank you Mr. Representative that. Thank you madam chair of. Great job as always thank you and we're certainly on this you. The question I had is. You are talking about the the. What I would call the the the not to special ed but to stir director teacher program I regular staff to be able to turn the used action the matrix was regular programming I think is the term in the matrix but. I was looking at that in yeah it's it's it I think it's. The price of my colleagues is surprised me a little bit that that any other teacher salary is called on the matrix does not equal the teacher salary as paid by the state of Arkansas of course the school boards have the ability to change that. When I was looking we're back and looked. Also another discrepancy is which seems to be hurting our smaller school districts some more rules condition this I'm getting to the question that maybe you can help me with is they seem to be having a very hard time maintaining the the student to teacher ratios that are set up for the within the matrix even though the smaller school districts are maybe at 500 or 520 or whatever they're they're close to the ID are slightly above even the the ideal school but they they seem to have a hard time maintaining that the the racial students to teachers within the matrix not in your your report I think you're mainly dealing with that salaries not necessary the number of salaries that that there does that make sense so did you. Did did use. Could you help me to get my hands around what what is going on because you can literally. Plot of grass it gals as a school gets smaller the digit teacher racial DS drops right and and I will stop 221 little table we we I looked at I just picked first grade a first grade class sizes so we looked at all of the class sizes for first grade math but it's first grade across the the state this is on page 13 at the bottom of the page. And and and I just looked at you know what are that would be averaged that class sizes for small medium large districts and you can see that that large districts at the bottom table on page 13 have class sizes that are at almost 22 kids in a class compared with small districts which have 16.2 students per class and it's just it would when you're talking about staffing if you are able to stretch a teacher over a larger number of students there may be some academic you know deficiencies in doing that but from a fiscal standpoint it's more efficient to to have a larger class sizes and that's what's happening with large districts so so when you have you know if you're if everybody's getting paid for the same number of of staff but. Large districts are able to stretch those teachers across more students and it's going to allow them to either pay their teachers more or have money to spend elsewhere so so you're. You you're saying that you saw this and it's not just this one class and not this one signed sobs sees it goes up to the to the right to get the CDC the same effect and it's true of schools to I looked at school sizes you know if you're talking about a principal and and school sizes the smaller districts have smaller schools and so they've got to have a principal you know not to meet the standards but they've got to have a principal that generally want have a principal in their school but if they've got a smaller school it you know they're they're stretching their their principal over a smaller amount of state of students so it's just it just if the smaller schools smaller districts have smaller schools and smaller classes you know you're just you're you it's just less efficient financially so also and I didn't see this but maybe you could help me with this number so. I would assume just by the fact that they're rule and therefore more sparsely populated areas are smaller schools within the state are in the rule areas. Not necessarily in the urban areas I I would say that's probably generally true I haven't looked at it to you know look at school size according to you know metro areas but I would imagine that that's probably true the the bigger districts which are in the bigger the more urban areas are are the ones that are gonna have bigger schools and bigger class sizes thank you very much and you will be missed thank you. So. All. You may now I'm so I know how to prolong rescinded aboard for god will. So what the good thing with the joint as well but this. Several Wagner both planes or say like this and just reminded me a question she had an active after question about salary of you can't read if you got up your superintendent you're sort of make up what salary under an interstate you in and not have the next year but but what happened and some of my smaller schools and it having already in gonna happen even more as we go along is the fact that. They are they're spending other dollars for things that they know they're going to lose and records are about funding that's our scheduling to which were to and we're doing we're there tell me I don't do away with not a must foster some orders group of draft do what with extra things no no we're not here to about salary right now but it just bothers me a little bit and people don't realize what. If you're if you're a if you're sitting alone in a rule system rule area in legis house or Senate. Person you will face some really tough questions 2022 for Stiller and I can't tell you what you'll say but I know we have some issues but the other question I have and I'm not going to which we will they'll of thank you for your job. No one other thing that I'll show up in this been mentioned many times by many more people smarter than I am but the matrix. Especially when we set the number of students in class then come all wish you've got 5 kids show up for second grade you need no the teacher would open the additional funding into for that and that's an issue in a dead like it's been mentioned before but I hope some way we can address that. And your the smart lady you figured out thank you Mr. And now we've only got 20 more owner to ask questions. No that's it. Thank you any parting words. I I I will I will miss this I will. Our. Have you seen that Pinocchio when. Definitely the issue yeah if there's anything that I can do from the health department you know please please feel free to call I mean we have your number. Thank you thank thanks everybody. We don't know. We're Jr.