ALC-Game & Fish/State Police
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This is our first meeting. Representative Miller is running a little bit late. He got caught up in some traffic, and he said, let's go ahead and start. So I'd like to start on time and move this through fairly rapidly.
First item is item C, is discussion of rules and regulations adopted by the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. They're in your packet. Item 1 is the regulation amendment to the trout permit fee increase. Do we have any
questions? Do we want to bring somebody down to answer any questions?
If not, then let's move along to the migratory waterfowl hunting regulations. Luke Naylor is the waterfowl program coordinator for Game
and Fish. Are there any questions that anyone has about that? I see in there that
we're setting dates and limits. Anybody that duck hunts knows at least last year limits weren't a problem. Pretty, pretty,
pretty scarce year for ducks.
Does the committee have any questions regarding item two?
If not, then let us move along to C3, the captive wildlife regulations that were adopted. That will be Exhibit C-3 in your packet. Is there any questions regarding that? If not, then the next item is the item that would be Exhibit C-4,
Regulations for the Hard Card and Proof of License, Permit, Stamp, or Certificate. I miss the old
license that I carried with me. I'm still not used to getting that long sheet of paper
and folding it up and trying to put it in my license, in my carrier. Any questions regarding C4? All right. Then next would be the Conservation License Plate Fund Policy and Procedure.
Any questions? That is Exhibit C-5. If there are no
questions, then... Oh, wait, do we have one question? Senator Ballinger, you're recognized. Sorry, I jumped the gun. It's actually
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
9:12
C6. I'm not even sure if it's exactly on point, but it's pretty close. Well, we're moving along
rapidly here, so I'm glad you gave
us a notice that you have a question.
So now let us move to the land use around Game and Fish Lakes. This is Exhibit
C6. Senator Ballinger, you're recognized. And my question would be generally for Game and Fish,
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
9:36
dealing more with land use in general. we have a in my district i have madison county wildlife management area and and i just would have and it's so it's not exactly on point because it's not specifically around lakes but my question that i'd have for the committee and so you guys can start hold on just a second let
me let's get them down and and let them go ahead and identify themselves to
Speaker 17
9:59
the committee please good morning pat fitz director of the arkansas game and fish
Chair
Unverified
10:07
good morning jason olive assistant chief of fisheries management for the game and fish good
Speaker 21
10:13
morning ben batten chief of fisheries game and fish all right senator you're
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
10:19
recognized yeah thank you very much so you know i spent a lot of time out running around the mass and county wildlife management area just a neat beautiful place very blessed to have that in
my district but one of my questions is in the southern part of my district with the when the national forest property there's really robust tourism with people coming from well all over the country but a lot of folks up from texas from kansas city or whatever bringing their atvs and and running around and spending their local money at the org general store and the gas stations and and you know paying for verbos and all that stuff in in the madison county wildlife management area we we have everywhere basically is prohibited atvs and i just was interested like why are we
doing that what is the reasoning behind that because i just see that the benefits of that we see in the southern part of my district with with tourism that maybe carroll county is not benefiting
Speaker 20
11:15
from that madison county is not benefiting from that yes sir so i'll i'll address a portion of that most of our wildlife management areas are set aside for hunting and things around conservation what we've seen on a lot of our areas with extensive atv use
is damage to the property and an increased need for maintenance to come in and repair that so i certainly understand what you're saying the the atv recreational use is becoming more popular and and folks are looking for places to utilize that but to answer your question that's why those restrictions
Speaker 26
11:53
are in place okay so it's just purely just the maintenance
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
11:58
of the roads i mean obviously we don't want them out running around through the woods off off designated trails but
at the same time we're not allowing even the designated roads that you guys have open used for the atv use and it's because they produce a lot more damage than a than a regular vehicle would yes sir okay it to me it just you know that you can you can uh you can keep the stall clean by killing the ox but there's much increase that comes from the ox right so to me it seems like there could be real benefits to the state by allowing this resource that is you know taxpayer resources to be open to the public if we would do it and I do see how there could be you have more
maintenance requirements but and I also would see how during hunting season you wouldn't want ATVs running around during deer season maybe during turkey season up there but at the same time it seems like if we open it up you know in the middle of the summer we open it up to other times it'll bring more people up there to stay in the cabins out by the river to to spend their money at granny's cafe and and basically help local economy quite a bit which in turn helps everybody in the state yes sir so anyway that's something to think about and as we go forward yes
Speaker 32
13:10
thank you senator any other questions if
not then representative miller has just arrived and we have gotten started do you have any words of wisdom for this committee representative no words of wisdom period okay all right well uh mr batten you might want to stay there are there any questions for the next item which is exhibit C7 the
Speaker 33
13:46
aquatic turtle harvest regulations any questions if
not thank you gentlemen for being there with that what we do have a seat 82 who is in 82 senator Ricky Hill. Senator, you're recognized.
Senator Ricky Hill
Unverified
14:04
My question does not pertain to some of this, but can y'all kind of update us on
CWD, where we're at and what we're doing?
Speaker 38
14:14
Yes, sir. Sure will. I'm going to invite Corey Gray up.
Mr. Gray, please identify yourself to the committee and you're recognized to speak. Good morning. My name is Corey
Chair
Unverified
14:41
Gray. I'm the Chief of the Research Division for the Arkansas Game and Fish. senator hill you're recognized
Senator Ricky Hill
Unverified
14:50
okay just like an update on what y'all are planning on doing uh the status of everything and what what our
Chair
Unverified
15:09
future plans are for cwd yes uh this year we are closing out our season for
the 2018 season we did identify 246 additional cwd positive animals in the state the newest information that we found is we have one positive in north part of scott county we
also found an additional positive in the far eastern edge of searcy county and so in compliance with our regulation and to be proactive we would include those counties in our cwd zone so we would include Scott County for 2019 hunting season and then also within a 10 mile radius we would want to include those counties which would include Baxter and Stone County and again that's an attempt to be proactive and to be ahead of this disease as much as we can our efforts are monitoring and surveillance efforts
continue inside the CWD zone and throughout the state our staff are currently collecting samples. They never cease from collecting samples. We ended the 2018 season with just a little over 7,000 samples. It's going to be roughly around 7,300 samples. I can address any specific information. That was real general synopsis there. Just to expand a bit
Senator Ricky Hill
Unverified
16:27
more, what are we doing for the protection of our hunters and the consumers of the of the the
Chair
Unverified
16:35
deer okay we are this past year we
started a freezer network system with the recommendation from
the CDC Center for Disease Control and Prevention that is highly recommending hunters not to consume any deer that's positive and also to test encourage testing as much as possible so for this upcoming year we are wanting to expand our freezer network system we do we want individuals anywhere in the state in any county of the state regardless during the season to have an opportunity to get their game tested if it's in their interest in addition to
that the Game and Fish Commission will pay for all testing so we want to make a free service available to our hunters throughout deer season in all counties of the state in addition we're also working with taxidermists in the state we've formed a great partnership with our taxidermists I think we have 44 taxidermists currently enrolled and we're paying those individuals to collect samples from hunters directly. Thank you, sir.
Thank y'all. Thanks, Senator Hill. Senator Stubblefield, you're
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
17:40
recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I assume most of these deer that were tested positive, were they
initially found at either a processing plant or taxidermist?
Chair
Unverified
17:52
It's a mixture. We do have some that are coming through our processors that
are participating with us, and those positives are being identified. We're having positives identified through our taxidermist, and that's been a real beneficial strategy for us in identifying positives. And then also we have just hunter-harvested samples brought to us that we identify positives.
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
18:14
What counties have the highest incidence of CWD?
Chair
Unverified
18:18
Newton County is by far our highest. Who's second? Second would be, I believe, um, Crawford? It'd be Carroll. I believe it's Carroll County. 76 positives have been identified in Carroll County. 381 have been identified in Newton County. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Rice, you're recognized.
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
18:51
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is not about CWD, but if you want me to wait, I can, or I'll just address the director. Go ahead. Okay. Director Fitz, good to see you. And I apologize I wasn't here right when the meeting started because I was still in the other room. Last year's discussion that we had various legislators wanting to be more involved in a process for the people that elected us concerning rules. I don't think this committee met that much last year after that discussion.
Can you tell me what has changed to allow us to represent our constituents in the process of trying to help Game and Fish form balanced regulations? is there is there anything change allow us more input i thought there was going to be but maybe i'm mistaken no sir
Speaker 20
19:55
and i believe we've been doing that uh supplying this information excuse me
on the regulations that are that are being proposed as they go out to to better inform this group okay and do
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
20:10
you the chair staff can somebody tell me how that's being done i believe through
Speaker 38
20:19
the process that we're in right now to where you're looking at the the regulations
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
20:26
that these these regulations have been adopted by the gaming fish already right okay what my thought process was when we discussed this is when you have things like cdw
we understand we're not qualified and we don't want to hamper that you know we want things to in quick but when there's process of new rules my understanding was this committee would be made aware of some coming regulations where we can talk to our constituents who can't take off work and get maybe to across the state to a commission meeting or something and be have input on it rather than these rules have already been adopted this is the way it's been being done all along
what i was asking for what i thought we had come to an agreement on is for some of this to to filter through us not for us to set it but for us to have input for our constituents right what
Speaker 20
21:42
has changed since that discussion so uh mr goodhart was just reminding me that miss barbara brown gets everything that's proposed as
it goes out uh for a review and i will add that we're in the process of rolling out our new digital code book, which may not sound like a lot, but it will allow everything that's being proposed to immediately be available, not only to you, but to your constituents for comment. There's very easy tracking of regulations if they want to look back and see how a regulation has evolved and the
reasons why and allow that comment to take place through that process. And I think that'd
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
22:28
be very good i mean it's not that we're qualified to jump in the middle of it yes we we need process for feedback from uh the public to to have input rather than to see already adopted done done right you know that that's what i wanted is just the public to have input if they needed to do it through us if that's the only way to do it that's what i was trying to interject well two things
Speaker 20
22:53
there this this digital code book will allow a vehicle for that to take place and we're just right now rolling that out and we'll be uh we'll be pushing that through our communications division so the public will be aware of that uh at the same time if there's as we send these proposed regulations uh out for public comment they come over here as well okay okay very good thank you Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Representative Josh Miller
Unverified
23:26
Vice Chair Miller, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Co-Chair. What about this, if we, Director Fitz, if we, if there's any new proposals to the commission for rule changes or updates with the CWD stuff or whatever, and I think I remember the last time around what Senator Rice was talking about,
and that may very well be my fault, so I apologize. But would it be possible for us to get this committee, the staff, to get just a heads up on, hey, this is being proposed. We don't even know if it's going into effect or something like that where we could supply it to these committee members. Is that some way that
Speaker 20
24:20
we could track through Ms. Brown? I mean, is there a way for that to move from her to this committee?
Well, I think that one way, and not Vice Chair, Co-Chair Miller is talking
about, maybe when you all put your packet together for your commissioners, the proposed rules and regulations or any changes that you might have, you
might forward staff here and we could uh send those out to our our committee members and and
Speaker 20
24:50
that to me that's happening as that proposal uh comes to our commission i mean it has to move through them before we can push it out um that proposal
Speaker 17
25:02
because it may not get through
that process i think what senator
rice and i'm not trying to never try to put words in senator Rice's
mouth but it's just simply just sort of a heads up of what the Commission is considering and that we could at least have that information because of questions we might get from constituents that they might pick up say in the discussion portion of the Commission meeting and we get a call and we don't even know really you're considering it. It would be helpful to us
to at least know what the commission's considering, whether it passes or not. Senator Rice, is that? Okay. I think that's where we're headed. It would just be to provide that packet information going out before your commission meeting to send any proposed rule changes to
staff here, and we will get it out to committee
Speaker 20
25:57
members. Yes, sir. I think as long as we're dealing with those proposals, I would hate to get anything that's not going to be proposed out. and lead people to believe that that's being considered
without officially being proposed. I think that'll
help us. I think that very thing, by giving us that information, then
we'll sort of separate the wheat from the chaff. Do you all
Representative Josh Miller
Unverified
26:22
have, like, an agenda or whatever for the commission meetings? Yes, sir. Things that, I mean, whether they pass or not, obviously it would be on the agenda. yes sir
Speaker 20
26:33
we have an agenda set probably a week week out from every meeting i think if we could
Representative Josh Miller
Unverified
26:41
get that that would be that would be helpful then we would at least be in the know um and could you
know if we have constituents call and say hey game and fish doing this this and this and they're going to take away our ability to use bobbers and worms and such and such creep at least we'd know. You know what I mean? We could maybe help put some of that fire out pretty quickly. Yes, sir. Absolutely. That's all I got. All right. Thank you,
Representative Miller. Representative Rice, you're good. All right. Next,
Representative Jon S. Eubanks
Unverified
27:25
Representative Eubanks, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Two quick questions about the CWD. How long does it take to get the test results back and are we communicating that to the general public that that's that
Chair
Unverified
27:40
service is available yes we we attempt make all attempts to get his samples back as quickly as we can we do use the Wisconsin lab currently
we are shifting into our livestock and poultry lab which is this next door to us and and those individuals will take a vast majority of our samples for 2019 but I don't have the number of days exactly how it takes but we try to get it within seven to ten day turnaround period from the time a hunter submits the sample till we receive it one of the slowest things is our taxidermis but it's because the head has received frozen and then when they work it up then they'll pull the sample but generally on a drop-off or anything of
those our goal is to get within a seven to ten day turnaround period we hope that process even speeds up more when we start working with our sister agency livestock and poultry right next door we're very thankful to have that relationship with them I apologize I don't remember the second question are
Representative Jon S. Eubanks
Unverified
28:41
we doing a good job of communicating that to the public that that service
Chair
Unverified
28:46
is available yes sir I believe we are we we have a marketing plan how the information is being distributed to our to our hunters on free testing our drop
off locations it's in our guidebook it's on our website we're taking radio ads out and then if a hunter is a does test a positive deer our staff calls that hunter immediately whether it's nine o'clock at night or whatever time the results come in so we don't want any lag period there with no find of a positive
animal okay thank you representative Wardlaw you're recognized I didn't see Who is in seat 56?
Representative Jack Fortner
Unverified
29:31
Representative Fortner, you're a reckoner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Along that same line about the free testing, where are those sites? Are there a lot of them, and does a hunter just take a sample of a deer, or what part do they take? Maybe I'm just uninformed. Could you
Chair
Unverified
29:51
help me with that? Yes, sir. For 2018, our sample sites were scattered primarily in our CWD zone, which is northwest Arkansas. And we had them advertised in our hunting guidebook,
and then we also directed hunters to our website where we could have exact information. For 2019, we're wanting to expand that more to a statewide scale. So if hunters in south Arkansas or eastern Arkansas are interested in getting their game tested, they will have a drop-off location. And when I say drop-off, it's just basically a freezer that we design. And a hunter, when he or she visits the location, they will have instructions on how to remove the animal's head. They bag it. They put their information on it, and they drop it in the freezer.
And then our staff goes by and collects those frozen heads. We pull our samples, and we submit it to the lab, and then the hunter will be notified
Representative Jack Fortner
Unverified
30:45
of the results. Okay. Are they spread, like, ever 100 miles, ever 50 miles? Inside
Chair
Unverified
30:50
the zone the CWD zone we try to get it within a 30 minute drive time. Okay. Yes, sir. Thank
you Representative Cozart you're recognized Thank you,
Representative Bruce Cozart
Unverified
31:02
mr. Chair Director Fitz. This is I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you a question about fisheries on gonna get off the CWD for a second
I know there were some changes back in October would you kind of give this committee a brief on what happened with the bait fish
Speaker 20
31:21
situation in Arkansas in October? Sure that was when the new bait fish regulation was implemented which basically said that you cannot bring live bait fish from outside of that water body in the watershed to to use for bait and that was in response to the growing problem with invasive
species that that'll a lot of states are battling that is a huge challenge for for the resources out there whether you're talking about vegetation or undesirable fish or things of that nature so that is what that is in response to and this was in response to
Representative Bruce Cozart
Unverified
32:01
the silver carp population growing in some areas and the fear of bringing those into other water bodies basically if i'm right and you can correct me this fight affected our striper fishermen more
so than anyone in the state well
Speaker 73
32:18
it they do they are a a big user of live bait fish yes sir but it would affect anybody
Speaker 68
32:24
that used live bait fish in those bodies of water and not just
Representative Bruce Cozart
Unverified
32:28
our guides but even people that personally fish for them were doing that transferring from arkansas river to other water bodies and so this that actually stopped that process in October I just wanted this committee to know what happened I think a few of them were aware of that but but that's that took place in October so if you have those people in your areas we worked with the game of fish real
intensively on this issue and trying to come up with the best possible solution to it it's not the best for our fishermen probably but it is probably best for the people of Arkansas to keep invasive species out of our water so thank
Senator Cecile Bledsoe
Unverified
33:12
you director fizz senator bledsoe you're recognized thank you mr chair on that note uh being from northwest arkansas and beaver lake we had quite a discussion on that and i wondered the striper guides felt as if what we what game and
fish was requiring would put them out of business did you find that to be true or how has the small striper fisherman guide, I guess a guide for the fisherman, been affected by the new rules? Yes, ma'am. To your
Speaker 20
33:45
point, you know, I can't speak to how their businesses are responding to this. If they rely solely on live bait fish, then it would be impactful.
we do find that there's other alternatives for fishing and i would like to invite my chief of fisheries up we do have a lake in the state that has a a very solid striper population and guide services up there that have had that have had this regulation in place for quite a while and are functioning quite well senator bledsoe thank you for the question uh
Speaker 21
34:25
yeah i'll echo what the director said. I mean, we cannot personally speak for how that might have affected
them or not. The striper fisheries have been around for a long time, and early on shad was not the premier bait of choice. There were a lot of folks using artificial bait. There's still a lot of folks that use brim, brood minnows, some other things. And so I believe that shad may be considered by some guides at some seasons to be the most effective fastest way to catch fish but we believe there's other alternatives and we've attempted to work with the groups and we've tried to connect
some of these anglers with the you know we have a heck of an aquaculture industry over in the delta and on multiple occasions we've offered to facilitate meetings between University of Arkansas Pine Bluff Extension the guides and the aquaculture industry and we have not been taken up on that
Senator Cecile Bledsoe
Unverified
35:23
offer yet all right well I appreciate that opportunity for them but that was part of the the reason they were so upset was because I remember one specifically had been in business
for two generations and they were very concerned about the things coming from the game and fish that would close their business. And so I was kind of in the middle of that, but I was certainly for what you were trying to do because I did watch the videos of what happens when the invasive species come in, and it was frightening to think that something like that
especially could happen in Beaver Lake. So anyway, thank you very much. Thank you, Mr.
Speaker 32
36:13
Chair. Senator Hickey, you're recognized. yes just clarification i had
Chair (Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr)
Unverified
36:23
went and read that that that only applies to wild caught is that correct that's correct
Speaker 21
36:32
we're talking about wild caught bait fish that are live so you can catch
something throw it on ice if it's dead you can use it anywhere and you can buy live bait from any you know directly from a fish farm
Speaker 23
36:44
or from any bait dealer and that that is legal we're talking about wild caught live bait fish right and that's what I
Chair (Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr)
Unverified
36:51
appreciate representative Cozart saying that I just want to make sure that we clarified that because like I say I had some questions on that and went back and read it and I thought that it did say wild caught so if you're a licensed dealer and that's coming from a hatchery then that's okay to use it no matter where it comes
Speaker 21
37:09
from is that correct that is correct you can take a purchased bait from a dealer and fish it in any
Speaker 115
37:16
waters of the state thank you sir senator
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
37:21
ballinger you're recognized just for clarification if you catch it in that water you're okay so if you take out your cast net you catch a shad you're fishing for i'm a fish for catfish so if i'm fishing for flathead i go catch my shad i can fish for it as long as i'm doing in that same water i just can't go catch it at the creek that is from a different watershed and come
Speaker 21
37:42
and fish in beaver lake that's correct and uh um you know any of the tributaries
in beaver lake you could run up the white river or the
Speaker 117
37:48
west fork of the white river and you can catch bait there and use it in the lake so anything that the fish could
Speaker 118
37:54
naturally i just can't do it in the kings and then
go over to the exactly we don't want you crossing watersheds okay makes sense Representative Berry, are you in 72? I have, who's in 72? Oh, Representative Wayne.
It shows that you're owned. You might have to go
Speaker 121
38:38
to the next microphone. Go to the next
Speaker 125
38:48
microphone. All right. How are we now? 71. You want to try 71? There we go. Okay. I appreciate this conversation.
I wanted to, with regard to what you said was our
Representative Carlton Wing
Unverified
39:00
stellar aquaculture industry, I don't think a lot of people know that 85 to 90 percent of all of the farm-raised bait fish in the country comes out of about three counties here in Arkansas. And so we have the ability to meet the needs of what may take place there with these striper guides. But also I wanted to talk about the risk and reward, and I wanted to get your comment on if we fail to protect our waterways
if these invasive species come in. For instance, last week I was at Realfoot Lake in northwest Tennessee, and they have had a massive invasion of Asian carp. My son took about a 25 to 30-pound Asian carp across the temple of his head, and broke his glasses just as we were idling with our boat out crappie fishing. So that's what can happen to a lake if you allow that invasive species to get there. Could you comment to that and how important it is that we need to protect our waterways from that?
Speaker 108
40:02
Yes, Representative Wing, I'm very glad you brought that up. I was going to comment
Speaker 21
40:08
earlier that if anybody wanted to talk to their colleagues in Kentucky and Tennessee and other states as well, those folks are suffering greatly from aquatic nuisance species. And the problem with it is they're spending all their time and effort, literally millions of dollars of effort, and that's effort they can't put into making their fisheries better. It's a lose-lose equation. At best, they knock them back. But again, you're wasting a lot of effort and funds that could be spent to be bettering fisheries.
So with aquatic nuisance species, prevention on the front end is always our number one goal. We've learned that over time. There's some things now that are out there, and they're largely spread. but we're going to continue to do everything we can in order to stop new ones and to stop the spread of what's
Chair
Unverified
41:01
already out there. Senator Bledsoe, you're recognized. All right, thank you.
Senator Cecile Bledsoe
Unverified
41:05
I do want to add to that that the video I saw was a woman water skiing.
So it's not just about fishing and starting your motor, but it's also about recreation. and our tourist industry and that type of thing, especially in Beaver Lake. But if you've got any of the videos or if you can email some of the tapes like that, I think you'll find a lot of people just coming over to your side and saying we don't want that. So thank you.
Any further questions? if not then if there are no objections then item c1 to c7 uh stand reviewed uh thank you gentlemen appreciate what y'all do uh that will move us to uh item d uh regarding the discussion of concealed handgun carry license applications uh i see colonel bryant
in the back uh and And Colonel, and you're bringing Ms. McLaurin with you, staff attorney.
Would you all please come forward? This is exhibit D1 through
D6 in your packet. If you would identify yourselves to the committee, then you're recognized to speak. Thank you,
Bill Bryan
Unverified
42:34
Mr. Co-Chair. My name is Bill Bryan, the director of the Arkansas
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
42:41
State Police. I'm Mary Claire McLaurin, staff attorney with the Arkansas State Police.
We appreciate y'all being here today. There has been some questions regarding the handgun carry license. The
information is your packet. Does the committee have any questions? Representative Payton, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. and
Representative John Payton
Unverified
43:06
I really appreciate y'all being here and the information that's been provided in the packet has answered a lot of questions for us but what drew my interest was some scuttlebutt on social
media and stuff like that about changes in the application and language and and of course you know it seems that a lot of that language has probably been there for some time but it has drawn new notice so I'd like to ask a couple of questions basically for the record does Arkansas Arkansas State Police recognize a citizen's right to possess a firearm concealed or unconcealed without having a concealed handgun carry license? Representative Payton, as far as
Speaker 138
43:50
a concealed handgun license, that is a statute and we
were required by the statute that was passed by the General Assembly in 1995 to adhere to that
Representative John Payton
Unverified
44:00
statute of concealed handgun license. That wasn't my question. Does the Arkansas State Police recognize an Arkansan's right to possess a firearm, concealed or unconcealed, without the issuance of a license, without having the concealed handgun license? I believe,
Speaker 138
44:18
in my mind, I did answer the question, but I know the General Assembly
passed a resolution, and of course, you know, you're allowed to carry a weapon, but as far as concealed I think the statute says you could carry a concealed license excuse me concealed handgun you must carry it can have a concealed handgun carry license so your answer would be no I think it's yes and then no yes as far as the ability to carry a weapon without a license
Representative John Payton
Unverified
44:50
the statute so the Arkansas State Police does not recognize an Arkansans right to carry a concealed handgun without a license is that what
you're saying i believe the statute says that sir okay well i'm asking about your interpretation of the statute but uh so the right to carry unconcealed in your mind at what point would we take that right away
Speaker 138
45:13
from a citizen i believe uh that uh the act everybody can is with the intent if you intend to to violate a unlawfully carrying a weapon if you have that intent to commit a crime i think you know the governor put out some guidance on that as far as open carry
because we've had no court decision so we follow that guidance until we have a
Representative John Payton
Unverified
45:40
clear court case okay so when we talk about the application process and the issuance of a concealed handgun license and we recognize at any point any level a citizen has a right to possess a firearm without that license the more cumbersome and invasive that we make the application process would you agree that that that the more cumbersome or invasive that the application
process is the more it would discourage uh arkansans from going through the process and having the background check and obtaining a concealed handgun license. As the director of the Arkansas State Police or
Speaker 137
46:19
any law enforcement officers, we follow the rule of law, which is the statute that was passed by this General Assembly. So we follow the laws
Speaker 138
46:27
that are passed by the General Assembly. Okay. Well,
Representative John Payton
Unverified
46:33
I'll be happy, Mr. Chair, to surrender and get back in the queue at any point you want to stop me.
but this exhibit that you gave us d1 about the issue and the short answer it gives some of the language that came into question on social media where the application says a waiver authorizing the department access to any medical criminal or other records concerning the application permitting process and to all of the applicants criminal records that is a quote from the law right there for the members if you want to look on page one of d1 but then if you look
at exhibit d2 the last page it has the actual language from the application and it says i release any records or reports held by any physician medical professional medical facility mental institution state or federal agency court or law enforcement agency and authorize all such entities to furnish detailed information it goes on it says i agree to sign any additional releases as may be required by any entity i mean that is much broader it seems
than the language in the law and so what privacy would an applicant retain beyond signing that waiver.
Speaker 147
48:06
Respectfully, Representative Payton, I would disagree with you that it is broader than the law. The law states a waiver authorizing the department access to any other records concerning
the applicant. That is basically the most broad statement you can make. The actual waiver on the application itemizes the types of records that may be sought but any other records is basically everything so there's
Representative John Payton
Unverified
48:41
no privacy that remains beyond signing that waiver practically
Speaker 147
48:46
there's a the individual is going to retain a lot of privacy because of the ability and the
that we have to actually know that certain records exist and the um it all comes back to the actual requirements so it's based on the law and the requirements that are set forth in 573 309 if a record does not pertain to one of those requirements we will not be seeking that record
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
49:15
so may i continue we've got other people in the queue but i'll allow one more okay i have
Representative John Payton
Unverified
49:30
good this kind of wraps up my first series uh so on page three of exhibit d1 you have some specific arkansas code mentioned and then you specify what federal and state agencies you may need to obtain records from the first one is u.s citizenship immigration services second one is federal courts city and county and state law enforcement agencies as it goes on there
it seems that you can successfully identify specific agencies and entities that you would need to obtain records from so why wouldn't it be possible in the application process to narrow that down instead of just having a blanket that
Speaker 134
50:21
includes the irs dfna and any other agencies that exist out
Speaker 147
50:28
there if you look at the sentence immediately before the listing i i did give
several examples there but i said that this is a non-exhaustive list of entities that may be required to provide further information and so these are several examples it would be impossible for me to list
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
50:49
every entity that we may ultimately need information from thank you senator ballinger you're recognized oh
i'm well senator ballinger you're recognized thank you mr chair uh so you know i didn't necessarily
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
51:11
And I totally get where you all are coming from. And frankly, the code section is written too broad. That's really what the problem is. You guys are dealing with the code sections written too broad. I would say that my encouragement would be to recognize that it's written too broad to the point where it's probably unconstitutional to gather that much information. And so as an agency, you should deal with it. My question really is, going back to the first question that Representative Payton asked you, and you said the code section says that you can't carry concealed without a without a permit so
what code section and this is not i mean i honestly i don't i'm not don't want to put state police in a in a bad spot except for the fact that you said that and so now i'm you know i i get asked all the time right you know people reach out to me all the time to to tell me whether you can carry concealed or not concealed without a permit i mean it's it's a regular occurrence on social media i get asked probably at least once a week about it and so you know the rule of strict construction would say if
you're going to enforce a criminal penalty which the you know carrying a firearm without a you know carrying of a firearm that used to be used to be a crime it's criminal penalty if you're going to enforce it it's got to be you know under the rule of strict construction you got to be real clear so what code section prohibits a person from carrying concealed without
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
52:37
a permit um if i may we are speaking in hypotheticals and no no we're not no i'm
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
52:41
talking about the law right so under the law what code section says you can't carry a gun without a permit i'm only saying
Speaker 147
52:48
that we're speaking in hypotheticals because there's not an instance that i believe anyone has brought to our attention of state police enforcing a code section in a manner other other than you suggest might be or that represent representative payton suggested might be appropriate under the law so if we were to look at 573 120 where it says that um the possession possession carrying a weapon unless with unlawful intent to employ it as a weapon against a person
the subsections of that provision it's as you know it's an attorney we have to read it as a whole taking each word as intended by the legislature so you have several subsections that are exceptions One of those exceptions is if you are carrying a weapon concealed and you are a concealed license holder. So the alternative would be, if it's an exception to that, to be a license concealed carry holder and you're carrying concealed.
Alternatively, it may be determined by an officer on the scene that because you're carrying concealed and you're not a concealed carry license holder that you have unlawful intent to employ that may be a determination that is made based on a totality of the circumstances on the scene yes but never consistent under the
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
54:21
law because in a if this
was a civil judgment i understand right because now it's ambiguous we've got to try to interpret it you're going to take those
code section you're going to say okay if we're going to give this meaning in the exception but that's not what we're dealing with we're dealing with criminal and they're criminal it's strict construction and and the only reason why an officer on the scene may may come up with that interpretation is because of the confusion that comes from the state and probably the primary um you know the individual entity most guilty is is us and frankly you is the state police the last person who asked me about this said i asked the state police and state police said you know that
they feel like you can carry, I think it was open, without a permit, but you need to go ask your local law enforcement. That's not the way the law works. The law is either it's legal or it's illegal. If it's ambiguous of whether it's legal to carry without a permit, they're the defendant. It's criminal law. The answer is it is legal to carry without a permit. And I'm totally open. If someone can point to me something other to the contrary, but if
we're going to enforce a criminal penalty you better have a code section saying that's a
crime right okay this is uh it
sounds like it's not a question that we're headed but well no i mean that's i
mean that he said the code statement but i've got i understand i think the committee does where you're headed any other thing that you want
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
55:53
to add i would just say that if you have a code section that says it's a crime to carry um concealed without a permit then i'd like to see it i would really love to see that kind of clarity come up from the state instead of still pushing confusion out Representative Miller
Representative Josh Miller
Unverified
56:17
being here number one appreciate what you do and this agency while we may have some you know I don't know if I can get any closer to
it or not all right i'll just talk loud um
anyway like i said i appreciate y'all appreciate the folks that work for your agency uh and when we do we desperately need clarity
uh i think uh you can go talk to county law enforcement officers sheriff's departments all around they interpret seems to me like the most the majority of them that I've heard from are are saying you know there's yes you can legally carry concealed without a permit now now I'm not a lawyer and I don't know how to use big words but I guess what my question is number one and
this is getting off getting off of that but number one going back to how does our concealed carry permit process our application compare with say other surrounding states oklahoma primarily um texas and and so forth how how do we compare with what they do number one and then um well answer that and i'll have a follow-up um i actually
Speaker 147
57:52
don't have an answer for you this was
asked of us last week it's not something that we have looked into the the variable structures of concealed carry licensing across the united states or there's a wide wide variety of how that works and we've not looked into it and as i understand it
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
58:13
representative sullivan had thought to maybe pose that question to BLR and have them look into it
Representative Josh Miller
Unverified
58:26
all right next question obviously and you say y'all enforce the statute that was passed by the General Assembly which you know I mean we have to recognize and honor and appreciate uh none of us were here when the statute was passed concerning the concealed carry permit would the and i just want this answered for the record so maybe we can protect all of us in here would the state police oppose more clarification being uh uh and and maybe a
narrowing of that statute in the upcoming session, as opposed to leaving it wide open and as broad as it is? Would the state police oppose that? Mr. Co-Chair, in the past,
I think we've shown the state police has worked
Speaker 137
59:19
closely with the General Assembly on some of the stuff. We would, but also, since we are part of the executive branch, we would have to work with the governor's office, and I think we would, always been good team players, we'll move to address and address any clarity that might need it in the law thank you very much yes ma'am if i may
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
59:42
add um the the purpose of the statute written
Speaker 147
59:47
the way that it currently is gives us the ability to investigate the requirements as they exist if the requirements for licensure remain the same we do need an ability to obtain records to verify a person's eligibility if those requirements change then likewise we could see it would depend
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:00:12
on what the actual substance of the
Representative Josh Miller
Unverified
1:00:15
legislation is does that make sense sure absolutely i think uh more than likely we're going to deal with that you know in a couple years or whatever somebody will
um so thank y'all thank you all very much and I think we've got other
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
1:00:35
questions. Senator Rice you recognized. Thank you Mr. Chair and I'm just gonna let there's enough questions being asked but I was sent this do you agree or disagree with the judge's ruling on the Taft case that said merely possessing a weapon is not a crime in
the state of Arkansas? From visiting I'm not
Bill Bryan
Unverified
1:00:55
an attorney but visiting with my attorneys they felt that case more addressed reasonable suspicion that it did concerning whether carrying a concealed weapon but again that's a novice from one of my attorneys are advising me at the state police. So what your attorney
Speaker 70
1:01:10
said a while ago or somebody said because it hadn't been tested you can't go further in stating that y'all are waiting for it to be
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
1:01:21
tested in court beyond this? Besides just a lower court have we We haven't got anything from the Arkansas
Representative Richard Womack
Unverified
1:01:34
Supreme Court. Okay, thank you. Representative Womack. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Colonel Bryant, do you, I'm curious, do you have that code that I never heard back from you that Senator Ballinger asked for that showed criminal intent? I mean, not criminal intent, but clearly makes it illegal? I mean, if you have that code, I'd love to know what it is, and then I have a follow-up.
Speaker 175
1:01:55
I believe Ms. McCoran said it was 573.311. So do you
Representative Richard Womack
Unverified
1:02:00
mind sharing with me that specific language that makes that a clear crime? Well,
Speaker 147
1:02:08
I would agree with Senator Ballinger and with you that it could be somewhat confusing, but the other principles of statutory construction do state that you have to read the statute as a whole, and so we can't just cut it into pieces it's 573 120 573 120 says that um carrying a weapon is
it's unlawful if or it's a crime if you're carrying it with the unlawful intent to employ it as a weapon against another person and that has a lot of exceptions so it's not a crime if you are a concealed carry license holder and you're carrying the firearm concealed my understanding of that language is that um if you the converse would be true if you're not a
concealed carry license holder and you're carrying concealed it might be demonstration of unlawful intent senator ballinger was correct and i want to stop you because
Representative Richard Womack
Unverified
1:03:12
i mean i we're kind of going back over the same ground here and that was not my intent i think the answer was no like you don't have clear language there which going back to what representative ballinger went when it comes to criminal charge you have to have that so if you don't have that and i'm assuming you don't right like you've had a couple three opportunities now to to state this is the language that's this
plain as day that makes this illegal and i'm not trying to be ugly i just i'm really looking for a yes or no answer because you know you stated your opinion and how you interpret it and of course everybody in this room can have the same thing so i'm just going to move to my follow-up really colonel bryant because i don't think you're going to give us the answer that we all know is you don't have that language colonel bryant why did why do you refuse to acknowledge the fact that you don't have that language in code anywhere.
Speaker 138
1:04:12
Again, I believe it's the interpretation that I depend on our lawyers at the state police of that
Speaker 137
1:04:20
statute. We've hashed it over, but I
Representative Richard Womack
Unverified
1:04:25
think it's the totality of the circumstances. Okay. It just amazes me that that's good enough for you to not have law that you're asking your officers to enforce against the people of the state of Arkansas. That really blows my mind. Representative Olmack,
we don't want your mind blown,
but we would like to represent Senator Stubblefield at this point. Thank you.
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
1:04:52
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Colonel Bryant, would you agree with me that it is the responsibility of the General Assembly to make laws regarding this issue and it's not left up to your interpretation that we clarify and make sure there's a consistency across this state in regard to concealed carry permits or open carry, that we make sure that's clear to every individual, every law enforcement officer,
not the state police. Your job is to carry out the law. We are the ones that make the law, and this is very vague, and it's left up to the interpretation of the state police and other law enforcement officials all across this state where there is no consistency. You can go in one county, they will arrest you. You go in another one they won't. So what this General Assembly needs to do is pass a law the next session and clarify this and make sure that the state police and all
Speaker 180
1:05:41
other law enforcement authorities and agencies are clear on the law.
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
1:05:45
Would you agree with that? Yes, sir, I would. Thank you. Senator Ballinger, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Along those lines, let me first say that I apologize. Since 2013, we've had an ambiguous statute. And even though you know that I've made an attempt and was opposed by the state police to try that clarification, the legislature has an obligation when they know that there's a law that's ambiguous that we should address it and we should clear it. And there is.
It's ambiguous not because of the code section itself but because of the fact that there are exceptions. I would argue that if you strictly construe that, that means it's unlawful to carry a weapon with the intent to commit a crime and then it's an exception to that if you have a concealed carry permit you fall under a whole different set of things that's how if you strictly construe that that that code section that's the way that would be interpreted but what i i guess my question for the for for you would be then you know if that's the case if if your interpretation is that it's that it could
be construed as as still criminal why haven't there been any arrests on this code section since 2013 how come we don't have court cases where the state police have have made arrests under this if this could still
Speaker 147
1:07:09
be criminal again i'm guessing and talking about hypotheticals because i don't know exactly what is happening every time an officer or if officers have even encountered people in that situation but as you were discussing when a statute's ambiguous there's the principle of lenity which basically
says that if a statute is ambiguous in a criminal proceeding the defendant is given essentially the benefit of the doubt and so I think people want a statement we are abiding by the governor's guidance because he is the chief executive and and we abide by the letter that he sent to us As far as I'm aware, there has not been an instance in which an actual arrest has been made contrary to that.
And I know that people frequently say they talked to state police, they called state police. I don't know who they are speaking with or who these people are who say these things. as far as i'm aware i'm present with the colonel each time we appear before this this body and i and and general counsel greg downs have a lot of involvement in any public official statements
made by the arkansas state police and i don't think there's been anything that
Speaker 183
1:08:35
is contrary to the governor's statement. Representative Payton, you're recognized.
Representative John Payton
Unverified
1:08:45
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I see a lot more ambu... I can't say it, ambigidity or whatever. I see a lot more of that in your rules than I do in the law. I mean, the right to keep and bear arms. I mean, keep would be having them at home.
Bear would be having them on or about your person. that is not ambiguous at all to me but you referenced code 573 120 and it says a person commits the offense of carrying a weapon if he or she possesses possesses a handgun knife or club on or about his or her person in a vehicle occupied by him or her or otherwise readily available for use with the purpose to attempt to unlawfully employ the handgun knife or club as a weapon against a person it says nothing about concealed or unconcealed
but i guess my question is if we get so wrapped up in the gray areas in that paragraph why aren't you worried about whether a knife is concealed or unconcealed i mean all this is about the handgun it treats the handgun the knife and the club identical in that paragraph and there's nobody arguing about whether or
Speaker 134
1:10:02
not a knife can be concealed or unconcealed so can you explain why that's
Speaker 147
1:10:11
not ambiguous and the other is we issue concealed handgun carry permits that's
what our rules address so act 486
Representative John Payton
Unverified
1:10:19
of 2015 said that any right that a person had prior to receiving a concealed handgun carry license would not be infringed after they received it so you're saying that by getting the license they are surrendering the right to carry openly or unconcealed or i mean you're going right back to all these gray areas that you say used to exist and you know we
tried to change the law to make it less ambiguous with a very simple statement that if you had a right prior to obtaining
Speaker 134
1:10:57
a permit you didn't surrender that right when you
Speaker 147
1:11:02
obtained the permit i don't believe that i that i did say that they surrendered their rights um the exception to 573 120 does say that if you have a concealed handgun carry license and you're carrying concealed you wouldn't be guilty of that criminal offense the statute that you and i worked on um at 486
says that their license will not be denied revoked suspended as so long as they are carrying a fire in possession of a firearm in accordance with the constitution and arkansas law and um and and we've abided by that and our rules are are in we've we modified our rules to um to match that law and and we have not revoked suspended or denied the license the concealed handgun carry license of anyone contrary
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:11:51
to that statute. And so that act also
Representative John Payton
Unverified
1:11:56
recognized a person's right to keep and bear arms under the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution. And there have been multiple resolutions and acts in the state of Arkansas that recognized a person's right to keep and bear arms under the U.S. Constitution. so where is the gray area that that you think somehow by by passing the concealed handgun carry license law in 1995 that somehow that created a gray area that infringes on somebody's second
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
1:12:33
amendment rights um i i don't believe
Representative John Payton
Unverified
1:12:40
that it does so there is no gray area now that we need to straighten out their second amendment rights would supersede the concealed handgun carry license
Speaker 147
1:12:53
law in arkansas wouldn't it uh we will not suspend revoke or deny the license of a person so long as they are not violating arkansas law or the constitution as you set forth in that act
and we have not but somehow we've got other people in the queue i mean this is
just sort of chasing our tail here and sounds like to me it's a right for a court case to make the decision for all of us representative
Representative Josh Miller
Unverified
1:13:24
miller uh you're recognized thank you mr chair uh i feel i just want to address
the committee real quick before we get out of here in that i think we definitely do have uh some things that we need to work through with with the state police um and i think you
all of us want clarity probably as much as y'all do if we were all just being honest and hopefully in the next session we can give that but I want to remind everybody that while we may have some differences right now and we don't like to get all bumbled up in this legal talk speak whatever the folks in this agency that that they're representing put their lives on the line for us every day um and and we need to appreciate them for that and we don't need to forget that
and let any these little differences get you know override that we we ask y'all to do uh and the folks that work for y'all to do a very dangerous job we don't pay you near enough they don't get paid near enough and we need to keep that in mind and uh surely over the next few weeks and months we can circle back around and work through some of this if y'all would be willing to hear from us Mr. Co-Chair yes we
Speaker 177
1:14:41
would I mean since I've been the director four and a half years we've
Speaker 138
1:14:46
worked well with the legislature and communication is the key and we're willing to work with y'all and and we've just
believed that in the past and will so in the future thank you very much uh thank you uh co-chair miller uh seeing no other questions uh we will uh anybody in the queue we will uh let you know our next uh committee meeting and we are adjourned
Agenda
A. Call to Order
C. Discussion of Rules and Regulations Adopted by the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission (AGFC) [EXHIBITS C1-C7]
D. Discussion of Concealed Handgun Carry License (CHCL) Application [EXHIBITS D1 – D6]
E. Other Business
F. Adjournment
Documents
Speakers
Senator Keith Ingram Chair
Unverified
Senator Bob Ballinger
Unverified
Speaker 17
Chair
Unverified
Speaker 21
Speaker 20
Speaker 26
Speaker 32
Speaker 33
Senator Ricky Hill
Unverified
Speaker 38
Senator Gary Stubblefield
Unverified
Senator Terry Rice
Unverified
Representative Josh Miller
Unverified
Representative Jon S. Eubanks
Unverified
Representative Jack Fortner
Unverified
Representative Bruce Cozart
Unverified
Speaker 73
Speaker 68
Senator Cecile Bledsoe
Unverified
Chair (Senator Jimmy Hickey, Jr)
Unverified
Speaker 23
Speaker 115
Speaker 117
Speaker 118
Speaker 121
Speaker 125
Representative Carlton Wing
Unverified
Speaker 108
Bill Bryan
Unverified
Senator Missy Irvin
Unverified
Representative John Payton
Unverified
Speaker 138
Speaker 134
Speaker 137
Speaker 147
Speaker 76
Speaker 139
Speaker 70
Representative Richard Womack
Unverified
Speaker 175
Speaker 180
Speaker 183
Speaker 177