Joint Budget Committee - Pre-Fiscal Session Budget Hearings

Started this morning I appreciate all the enthusiasm it sounds like we're going to have an exciting day. The. Are first that we need to we have some rule changes that we need to adopt a little kevin briefly go over those and then be happy to entertain a motion to adopt thank you mister chairman this is item being your packet these are the same rules with a few updates to make the claims subcommittee in the minister of rules review subcommittees that consistent with the changes that were made for the council subcommittees their corresponding subcommittees and councils and there is also one change where the planned activities restriction is going for subcommittees is eliminated that's on the last page that's a basical review. All right thank you mister members where many questions on the rule changes aren't seeing none and need a motion to adopt i've got a motion to get a second in discussion in the motion seeing none of the space signal fabs saying I other supposed motion carries members before we get into the governor's balance budget presentation i'm going to talk about today cannot how at least I hope today's committee goes there's it's in two segments the first is we'll have this presentation and in that presentation efforts over there be a time for cue and and that's where you would have your questions about spending levels in what the priorities are in particular is how that mean that more into what is eventually rsa so if you have questions about spending levels in the priority of what we're spending then that's going to be the time to have those discussions is it right after they present then we're going to move into the appropriations and in those appropriations I would really prefer that your question stick to questions about the appropriations not about the spending levels and the governor's bounced budget proposal there's going to be plenty of time to have discussions about that when we come out of this meeting come out of this the pre budget meetings prior to going in the physician in again even when we're in session will have those discussions but again just a keep things rolling smoothly today they have questions about produce assistance meaning levels let's do that immediately after they present the government's balanced budget and then we'll move into the appropriations it's fine have questions for you know some of the leadership that's going to come down but please please try to keep that to appropriations with that you will can present. Who you could just recognize yourself for the committee and you're welcome to present. The. Good morning jim heads and sector dfa. A robert breck and the fa. Well good morning again that missed chairman and chairman jean and members of the committee I also want to pass along the greeting smart governor sarah could be sanders and as you know she's the parting soon or an important trade mission to asia looking to expand russians with industries that have tossed arkansas and it really kind of build new relationships with new industries as well making the case that arkansas place the other call home the governor is our best sales person for the state of arkansas and I know you're enjoying me in wishing her success on a trip praying for travel mercy so good health for her and for the entire delegation. Guess that downside that means that i'm kind of a poor substitute for for her to day so i'll do my best for you the budget packet that you have gotten includes a cover letter from the governor I want to cover some of the key points in our letter when i'll let robert step you through changes in the budget relative relative to FY twenty four. The budget that's in front of you actually we began working on that several months go last fall. A last fall that the governor kind of directed all the cabinet members. To look at their budgets and a fond opportunities to hold down the right of growth. The governor feels strongly that three percent growth and state budget year after year is not sustainable and we have to look for ways to begin to band the spending curve if we're going to secure. Our long term fiscal health. Now the cabinet took that challenge on which is why i'm happy to report that the governor's budget we are presenting day is first it's balanced fulfilling her constitutional obligation to do so. It includes only an increase of one point seven six percent over FY twenty four spending. As governor notes in our letter we are holding down spending while also still delivering on her priorities in education we're adding an additional hundred million dollars in support of learns which is consistent with the projected increase included in the bionian budget those adopted last year this will enable us to continue to deliver on being in a top five state for starting teacher salaries. Funding education freedom accounts and providing literacy coaches state wide. We also providing UAPB and additional two million dollars and funding bringing the total state contribution to the land grant matching program the five point eight million dollars. The governor's also committed to meeting the funding need to the state police. So the all our cansons can be safe in their homes and in their communities. That's why her fy twenty five budget adds three point eight million dollars for additional trooper school to renew the rent renew the ranks of the state police. And closing the governor says baster self in the last two sentences of her letter to you. She says i'm proud that this year's budget puts an end to government spiral and growth while still fulfilling the priorities are candidates elected me to implement I look forward to your consideration to working together collaboratively to cut costs improve services and make arkansas the best state in america to live work and raise family. That measure chairman i'll have robert walkie through some of the other changes in the budget and they will be available to answer any questions the committee may have robert. Thank you mister chair the the changes are really are quite simple we try to keep things the spending level I think we've met with old departments and most of those are being kept at level spending the same spending that they would have been twenty four eleven twenty five according to the governor's proposed budget the difference the main difference will be education obviously education the largest spender in the in the state budget a one hundred million dollars is dedicated toward education spending that's consistent with what was agreed upon with the learns act of thirty four million of that will be are going to the public school phone to fund that those items in the matrix and and other items that they need they need to find those were agreed upon uh then around sixty five million sixty four million will go to the freedom accounts are they will bring the freedom accounts up to about ninety seven million each year but they would be built in into the budget and and by far that's the largest amount the entire increase in the in the state budget would be a hundred and nine million one hundred million that would be education another four million actually would be tight education current technical education four million dollars would be out of that because utilization and those facilities that that doesn't leave a lot of room for everyone else if you if you look at the the state revenue balance budget document that you've got you'll notice that DHS administration goes up. At a four point three million four point two million as some of that are the bulk of that is coming from a transfer from the vision work for services you'll see that toward the bottom of negative three point five million that's being transferred to DHS miscellaneous agencies you'll notice that that's actually going down that's mainly because of the election year of issue when when there is a general election they usually get more funding I will say thankful to tell many of you that within that line we are providing seven hundred and thirty thousand dollars for for county fairs I think that that's always been a stumbling block for many of you but this should take care of the county fair issue we we gave a department agriculture whatever they said they needed seven hundred and thirty would make them hole and that is built into the budget. The. Another another item where there will be some growth as division of our existing police what what state police have done you agreed and you provided funding to have two additional troops schools they typically have one troops school a year but it was agreed upon that they would have two troops schools last year and then two two true schools this year we've added three point eight million dollars into the budget to handle the expenses of the the extra troop school that's to make sure that they can get all the equipment that they need other than that there aren't a lot of changes so that that's basically those are the changes and again mainly it's education are getting the bulk of that funding really a hundred and four million if you count crew tech in and that's that's basically it I would take any questions which might have. The. I think it's in your fire as you're recognized for question. Thank you. Roller here the. Additional two million four. University of arkansas pan bluff with an end matching program they actually needed a total of seven point eight of the seven point four and I want to know why. We are night trying to meet the state match and we had a discussion earlier last year late last year. And I hasn't used suggest it. That some rules will changed with the fears in terms of. Matching state matching I asked you to show me those rules I haven't seen any allows rules. And you suggested that the university could use any phones appropriate to them for the state match I don't believe that's the case otherwise it would defeat lay and crap I want to know why is it. That we are not getting. The additional one point six million dollars that's needed for the state match that's a good program down there it benefits the whole state well the way the way we came up with that according to a pb in the at the and the people at hired three point eight million dollars of their current budget was for the language so there was three point eight million move to that line we added two million to that line to make it five point eight that is what they're wonder one match what that was the requirement this year now i've heard two different numbers for next year and that's one of the reasons why we're doing it the way we are i've heard that the one point six million that they need may be over two years maybe over one year we still have two million dollars set aside in a restricted reserve specifically for people in the landground so what we can do is they'll get the five point eight through the rsa they can request whatever it was needed out of restrictive reserve to make up that that deficit whether the one point six million dollars increases over two years or one year i've heard both so i'm i'm not certain but even if it's one year we have that set aside in the restrictive reserve then what we can do for the next budget is build that in we what we know there they're match will be and will set aside money in a restrictive reserve to ensure that they get one hundred percent of their window one match and we appreciate that thank you and absolutely want to make sure that that happens. Thank you sinner pate thank you mr chair so on the fair funding does this allocate enough to make the fair's hole that they're twenty twenty two spent level or something different higher lower or what. All I can tell you senator repaired as a I ask how much do you need to make sure that they're made hole there was already an alarm and made for that purpose we added seven hundred and thirty thousand at the request of the department of agriculture you may have to ask them for the specifics but i'm told that that will cover the district fares and any other shortfalls that they may have heard I can't tell you whether or not it would it would bring them up to a twenty two level or even increase it but that was the number we were given that they would need and that's always provided thank you thank you mister chair you give their king. Thank you mr clark back the session in last fall I was talking guys about being two rosie on the forecast I felt like they run unrealistic and in here recently you cut back the forecast what changed from just for five months ago when I was asking and you thought everything was fine. We'll see I think you know what we shared last fall was that we would be revising the forecast insist of was required by statue. The revised forecast makes suggestions for the tax cuts. That were incorporated that were passed last wall so they're actually the amount of the forecast was not trimmed consistent with actually was trim law less than what the projected calls to the tax cuts were so there's nothing in a reduced in the forecast or vowed forecast really beyond the tax codes. Now where me last fall I was it was just your forecast going way out in these years with this economy and everything. To me it's unreal list so I mean i'll go back and review the videos but I think basically back then you regardless we're saying everything's going to be found i'll go back to review the videos move circle back happy do it center they give one thing just remind committee members will talk about it a little bit in alc maybe there's not exactly the same membership but we made the tax cuts retro act and they're also and that was both for the credits the one time credits and also the major tax cuts themselves the fay did not change with holding tables to reflect that and so there will be an increased amount of refunds given and in in addition to the new should knew with holding tables and so it's going to be kind of a a double up for at least the first three to four months of this calendar year so I think you'll see that it's partially I think the reason you'll change forecast but I would not expect that to be the norm can you know in the future this is truly kind of a correction for not changing the withholding tables. Sir letting recognize request thank you mister chairman good morning looking down the list here there are like most of the changes are very minor but I did notice the division of work for services the new higher registry is down almost ninety six percent over last year i've heard from a lot of constituents in our cancelled elsewhere who are struggling to get their unemployment claims process in time I know the divisions doing the best they can with the resources they have but there working under a considerable backlog is can you explain all this is can do anything to increase that back longer wiser such a significant drop with that particular line I that is the amount that was actually transferred to DHS in the in the line that you'll see up above they they they were increased by by that amount in a dhs administration that that's that same amount of money so that with the weight and we didn't decrease any funding I can't tell you you know why somebody might be waiting for an employment benefits but that particular line item it was reduced to to give that to DHS with the tan of program I believe yes enter the new high registries not related to the processing unemployment thank you all right thank you members we have any other questions. The. All right seeing non think through presentation this morning we're to move on to section d h institution is higher education we got a overview back commissioner. We could just recognize yourself for the committee whoever's going to be making comments in the in your welcome receipt. Ken warden commissioner to visit the heart education nick follow assistant commissioner division of harriet. Chairman members of the similar are pleased to be with this morning to present our review of the higher education budget. Um nick for our cfo will be presenting the details of the budget or the overview and we also have members of art from representing our institutions here this morning should you have more details that we don't have on handset thank you research your presentation consideration. Alright good morning the first thing I would want to talk with you about is the the state traveling the funding recommendations that are made for the institutions all of the funding recommendations are made off of a productivity funding model. As you know italy we're in your seven of that model that we've been doing for multiple years that distribution is in the budget manual that you have I did provide a print out that's a little bigger for years we walk through it if you want to be able to see it a little better but. I want to start with that and this is what we base the initial treasury recommendations offer for the institutions. So based on the the years even productivity model for overall for higher ad we had a negative point one four percent increase so really eight point one four percent decrease in productivity for the year. This is the first year that that has happened within the productivity model and what that means is that with the negative productivity we will not be asking for a new finding for institutions for this coming fiscal year. Within the productivity policy though institutions will never ask for less funding overall the difference in phones between what the institutions are able to keep on the recommendation and the prior you're spunning level would should be used for statewide purposes in the in the year that we are negative and if you will see in the governor's proposed balance budget there is a line where we are recommending for that one time in senate funds to be used. On the first page here you'll see there is the the funding for the institutions totals five hundred and eighty four million dollars for productivity funding. In four point five million is the one turn in center phones that were requesting to be used for one time purposes. And you will see I think believe that for the last line of the balance budget or that four point five million is recommended for. Funding of a sustainable building maintenance program loan program for the institutions provide some some maintenance needs to the campuses. To go on to the next page will start walking through how the recommendations are made for funding to each of the campuses. The first two pages of the hand out it's been brought to you are for the four year campuses is your see it begins with black the current year or a safe funding. Then reductions for one time phones the institutions can only keep if they had a problem your increase they can only keep up to two percent above their prayer base into the new base for the upcoming year any other funds will be considered one time and since the funds they get reduced for the next recommendation. So you will see the reduction of that incident funds to create the physical you're twenty five base revenue stabilization before productivity is implemented. Then you'll see in that in the blue columns on that chart there are no recommendations for new funding again that is due to the negative productivity. While we do not recommend new phones on the there is a section where we reallocate funding from institutions that had negative productivity to the schools that did show product productivity for the year. So on the second page in the red you will see where those reductions were taken based off the percentages from each campus and reallocated to the institutions that were productive for the four year institution that was only one that was productive. And then in the purple you see as those go from the base and add the the real occasion of funny to get the recommend recommended funding level for fiscal twenty five for the four year institutions. In the next few pages are the the two year campuses in the first two split amended two separate pages of the additional institution to make a look easier to read with the first two pages again or the breakdown to get to the base level funding. And then no new distributions. And in the last two pages show the real occasion. Were there there are seven institutions that receive new funding reality from those that had negatives. You'll see that there are some two your institutions to have an astric next to them those are ones that have hit the threshold where they cannot lose more than five percent of their funding from the favor previous based level amount so they have declined over the past five years and up where they've hit a bottom floor they can't lose any more than five percent funding over five years and that's what with why there's an astrix next to those institutions. The. So that is how we develop that the rsa recommendation will then take the other state troops refund that institution might receive educational excellent work for two thousand combined those three together to make a for a treasury appropriation level recommendation. In addition to those phones we do recommend a two percent appropriation only increase to account for any fluctuations in educational excellence or work for us so those will be reflected in the document that he represents you later on the ups and downs of the appropriation levels not any questions on productivity alright thank you members again just reminder this is set on a you know a formula that was approved by the hurry and in institutions and thank all this was fairly expected at least from the conversations that i've had a single chest filled your recognized for question yes thank you mister chair and thank you for that clarification but I wax awake's concern because high rate has been underfind it. For years and now we're talking about taking away almost a million from uca over a half million. For ualr uap be almost a half million. And yet we're saying that we are give some more to you a fair real. Which is traditionally had more money than anybody else this man. I don't understand how this gets us to productivity. And I know that we have a formula and all of their. But we're talking of an institution as losing large amounts of money allegedly we are having increases in the number of students going to many of these astitutions how does that work out so they reflects the increase in in student population and get a decrease in the amount of money that's going to the institution so the model that we have is not based on enrollment so that the new enrollments are going to help until we get to them to a credential at the end of the time in in the. Through the pipeline but also the years that we based this on or about two years behind where we are so a lot of the issue with where we see the negative is the comparative years that we compare productivity had this this year is the first year that we have a four year of the covered impact in that comparative so we had the big debt in students in the in the campuses in general. Is that this current reflected nick this funding reflects two years ago that the funding of sunshine or the funny is based on three year rolling average so. So that you mitigate in remind me of the ingredients in determining productivity remind me of those it's about a minute. So growth is that one of them growth growth is one of them right the growth in the credentials that are being produced growth and credentials produced and let him and then progression through their their time and in the system whether they're getting to the sake in your third year for the year so it's retention okay so we have growth we have retention affordability affordability of ma'am the training to keep them on track getting them graduated in a for road university graduating four years that associates getting the done in two years so this rolling through you're saying. As we look at the greatest pndemic we've had since nineteen eighteen. Let us cause all of this dip in funding going toward this year. What would you recommend to us besides just saying we'll just go with the status quo. To help deal with this issue because we are talking about three year rolling average there is predicated on something that has not happened in over a hundred years help me with that police I will say that you know we have a a funding worker compare comprised of presidents and chancellors and cfose of the different camps their meat and review these every year and we had that group come together to look at the impact of this before we moved forward for that year making the the recommendation to see if there was something we should do differently and we we determined to go ahead with this year and then will review again for the next day to set to see if if that is the only impact if there's something else we should be doing different to not you know me if this is a one time issue or if it's going to be an ongoing thing into the future and what they're collected genius come up with just maintaining the status quote for it for this one year for at least this year to go ahead and move forward with with the productivity model as it was not put it on pause not hold flat just go roll with roll with the model and then we will review again this next year which we coming up and probably a month or two will start looking at the data for the next year to see how that's going to impact the next year's recommendation before we determine if we're going to continue that or not. There is so interesting thank you so much more than senator what it means is there needs to be worked on to the model in the formula I think we've acknowledged for a while now that there are some issues with it I think the one good thing that does happen is the money isn't being lost for irad it's getting shifted over to the maintenance funds that would be available to institutions again I don't think it's the complete fixed but it's not going out of harriet unless there's something i'm misunderstanding that it's staying in harriet is just going into a different bucket but hopefully we will have some resolution to the hire funding of a harriet funding point where the before we come in and accession. You're recognized in her thank you so what i'm saying at the university of central arkansas losing eight ninety two they're not really losing eight ninety two was being put in another bucket of money for them yeah it's book being put into another bucket I think it's on page two I can't remember now I don't have in front of me but it's on the it's in their government's bounced budget proposal is it. Sorry near the sustainable building maintenance in that that's where these his pitch twelve yeah they're all getting shifted to that it's correct so it's not going in for say four uca now for for the amount that you're looking at the the eight hundred and ninety two for you see it that is being reallocated to fair bill within the model so you see is losing money to a fan for this year yes ma'am now in another year they may be gaining money from some of the other campuses okay with you see it that that has been the agreed upon model for for for seven years now that's been the agreed upon model that that some of them will lose and we'll go to other institutions so they we are looking at that changes the need to maintain to occur for the model before the upcoming regular session so the answer was feeling originally is is legitimate so yes mayor so to the to your point of the money that's being reallocated that's on the incentive on column where if you look there's three point eight million from fayetteville this past year that's being taken from them that's going to that made that's fine for the next year so favor is getting reduced by three point eight million and that's going to that maintenance fund to be distributed to other institutions or whoever whoever needs them whoever came just to the restate what next set of reality was kind of busy when the repair the hand outs out in search as a state all of our public institutions collectively were less productive than they were last year this is the first time that this has happened since we put the new formula in motion in twenty seventeen. So because we were less productive there was less money signed product to the productivity total allocation. The money that was left over that was not reallocated to institutions because of the total black and productivity were asking be moved into a phone that was created last year in in the session for critical maintenance there is a phone there that revolving long phone that institutions can access money to help them do critical maintenance on a rotation basis and the money but if there was no funds in that finders was not no money in it so we're taking the left over money there productivity and putting into that phone so our institutions can have some small small amount of relief for some of these critical maintenance needs that so important to them now of the total productivity there were those who were less productive and more productive so those who are less product over getting less money those who are more productive are are taking some of that does reduce funds and being allocated because they were more productive and again the formula itself is the one that we're given in the one that we are asked to work with so we're doing the best with what we have to work with the at this time is it perfect nowhere they can it can there's room for improvement absolutely let me ask you this they are allowed to borrow money. If what percentage rate I believe is point of two percent we're not trying to make their knowing in that will add on that the productivity when we gauge productivity it's the each school is being engaged against themselves they're not being compared to how they are on the the other four years or doing so you see as being compared to how productive you see a was in those other three years to determine that plus our negative so let me just say publicly thank you to both of you because every time i've called on you've been there and I wanted to say that as we move forward higher it has been very responsive to all institutions. I don't have any like this formula very much but uh I have appreciated secretary and I have appreciated uni and you young man over the years and wanted to say that publicly thank you so much thanks in her sinner hamry recognized for a question. Thank you miss chair what was the amount this being put in a fun that you can be available to the institutions total dollar mount four point five million okay and in my second question and not carry on a big long discussion about the philosophy of the formula but. If affordability is one of the pillars in the formula but yet we're not allowing the schools to have the money and what I heard was because we're blaming it on covered unless I misunderstood that's primary reason. Then are we adversely affecting them in this cycle by was holding the money because that money could be used to help make their productivity better or could you just give me your feedback on that. Send to everything for the question. The. So our institutions of our education have experienced the same walls at all the intersectors have experienced over the last few years I think one of our number one is risk factors is attracting and retaining talent and the funding that we have seen has not increased to the consumer price index lack and we're having to compete with other markets where we're having to find talent in factly members and and do the hiring so you know no matter how we shift the formula the part of money is basically still the same we haven't appreciated any funding we are operating in using those phones because of the way the formula is currently designed and what we are prescribed to do so taking that money and putting in into a critical maintenance fund what we know the need is there is one of the best things we can do with it because we don't have the authority to roll it back in and try to figure out redistribution to those based on their productivity so again we're trying to do the best with what we've got and I think you know with taking those funds and put him to an area of critical maintenance which we know is a need across all our institutions is about about the best thing we can do with it okay and I remember the discussion about the critical maintenance last year last cycle and everything but so let me let me just ask you is that the position that part of the productivity issues with the institutions is attributed to covered and if that is the position that's being taken how much longer do you think that we're going to be able to use covered as an excuse for that or we can be able to roll out out of it by the next general session where that will not be a statement that we used or what your opinion please thank you mister so generally speaking we have seen some flight up takes in a row man over the past year so I hope that we're climbing out of this out of the space there's a national enrollment cliff by some birthrights pitting the twenty twenty five I think that are consultant is probably going to be less acceptable to some you know cliff I think that looks to be hitting more than northeast and maybe midwest more than it's going to affect arkansas but just buy pure breath rates we're probably going to serve less moving forward. But right now where seem to be coming out of covered. In a slow but steady rate is just that that's really you're rolling average I don't in my opinion the three rolling average is a good thing because we didn't see a deep cut two three years ago we are mitigating that damage but my making a slow role of the three year rolling average to the fact our institutions in a small away in a longer way and keep in mind we have guard rails for institutions no matter how bad they dear they're not going to appreciate any more than a two percent decrease and that's also in the former so I out there into your question. Alright thank you sinner tucker thank you mister chair I have kind of a big picture of question just to start over the last couple of decades I think it's fair to say that level of support from the state republic institutions of our education has gone down relative to their overall budgets fair enough and because of that tuition has gone up significantly over that time span. And. From what i'm from advantage point I don't have any kids in college and haven't over the last two decades but for my benefits point it's it's appeared as though the level of scholarships available on the the amounts of the scholarships have remained relatively static. Is that also a fair assessment. I would say that that is fair we submitted all recommendation to the legislative body last month the december shoot me and the recommendation was that we revisit eligibility requirements and funding levels across all across all. Targets or opportunities for scholarships so I think his time to take a look at that absolutely yeah I mean the point is I know you you get it but that the point is that a scholarship that you got twenty years ago ten years ago even five years ago it doesn't get you as far in terms of your ability to go to school as it does today because the scholarships smaller relatively the cost of tuition. That's right and we have some tuition hikes and as I mentioned over the the hearing funding state portion of hurried funding has not increased that to keep up with you know CPI just inflation and so we still have sale reason you know factory members and staff members at trying to earn a living in in this you know inflationary environment and so trying to keep those folks engaged in and keep them hole and keep their salary so has been a challenge for or so when we don't see growth rates and you know of exhausted we have to look at other opportunities to find ways to creatively keep our rights low for for our citizens so that they have an opportunities to access education remove that financial burden but also those that we work with trying to keep them employed and keep keep our talent coming to us so that we have the skill set that we need to do our work yeah okay I appreciate I think making sure that the the scholarships keep pace with the cost of tuition as an important priority and i'm i'm glad to hear that you all it's on your mind and that you're going to come up with the plan to address it or are to study it now I look forward to to hear and where that goes thank you very much. They consider paying thank you mister chair I don't trust my memory as much as I used to are going back a few years old this was this productivity funding was created. The farmer right that was new money that was an increase to hired budget at that point whatever was in this bucket that was being created along with the model that determined how it would be distributed that was all new money wasn't. Yes sir yes and and each year prior to this year we have had a portion of new money added based on the productivity that we've had so over the the six years we've had about thirty five to forty million dollars and new funds added to higher education as a whole argument at that point was that harriet had not had an increase in many years yesterday and so they agreed to this productivity model because it gave him an opportunity at new funding and increased in funding yesterday thank you thank you mister chair and i'd add it was largely created by higher ad institutions minute this wasn't the during work of the legislative body the formula was created by it and it has served them with some increases over the years but protivity is down across the board and that's why you're seeing the negative. Repson of scott thank you mr chair I think I understand because of the productivity funding that the money has to be moved to the maintenance I think my question is i'm looking at henderson which is what three hundred and eighty two right but they're going to probably lose is there going to be are we anticipating layoffs at some of these colleges in I think henderson stood out because of the financial situation they've been in for the past couple of years that's probably going to be a lot of money to their smaller budget so are we anticipating lay offset not just henderson at some of these other schools and the shortage of the budget this year for these institutions. Will they be passed on to the students as far as increase fees or tuition like what is this really. What impact is this really gonna have to these colleges in in the kids who are attending. I will say that I think it there are folks here with the assume system that can probably speak particularly to hinderson but I think that if we look at lower productivity theoretically that you're going to have need less folks to deliver the course work and so on so we would hope that we would look for waste if there is right sizing due to downterms and roman that's that's done through attrition and other things rather than happen to lay off you know individuals or so I know our chancers are in the room and with rabbit speak to that each campus is responsible for handling those things internally you know based on their assets at their campus and and their needs so you know we interest I would I would think that theoretically you would see some lower numbers of employment but how each campus deals with that is really based on the campus and its administration and what they're what they have you know who they have to serve and how they're going to serve those ok so nobody's had any kind of conversation with you that they might be anticipating layoffs because of this what we're about to do no ma'am as as they get to the the budgeting process for the year it'll be on it an individual basis by institution on how each of them handle that but we have not heard anything of that nature play off somewhere thank you. Thank you sinners doublefield. Thank you for chairman I can can you give me just a real. Several definition of productivity. No sir but I will try to do my best idiots by design fairly complex because it is a complete complex issue basically basically. The number of degrees you produce your funded based on how you did the number of degrees and certificates you produce each certificate and agree has a point value that goes into a formula also in that formula there are things accounted for and you get multipliers based on if you're delivering how demand steel degrees if you're serving underserved populations there's a few other factors that go into that if you're doing research if you're four year there's a multiplier for that it is a complex formula but the the civilist definition is I could use as there those who produce more certificate centigrees get a higher value in the in the formula and that value roles into a funding based on themselves so they compared against themselves on the three year rolling average if they produce more than they produce in the three years prior they're going to see it up taken an opportunity to capture more the funding formula if they see it a downtran and how many degrees they produce they get money taken away and and and that's reallocated to those who did who were more productive. I hope that makes sense it's well the question I have is. How does that play into the fact thirty two percent of the student to graduate from college are working at jobs ten years later that are unrelated to the major they took while they were in college. So. Can you reash that how did how does how does it relate to those employee in fails it for which they didn't study. Exactly. A lot of our degrees have very transferable skills. And this is educator coming in education because. And huh we don't those i'll use literal arts okay that's one that catches a lot of of attention. We don't have standard occupation codes for those that are being you know necessarily graduating from a history with a history or a social science degree but we knew those are there a lot of transferable skills in those degrees so are for drawing and straight line from the degree they graduated with to the industry sector which their employed is is very difficult to do unless they unless they have enlisted for instance it's an an engineering degree that that is an occupation code those degrees that don't have standard occupation codes or hard to talk back to the degree and I do your point is taken about fifty two percent not being in the field they study but transferable skills are a key thing in higher education at whatever level whether you're at the certificate level associate degree level a batch was a degree level the things you learn that make you more employable across industry sectors are often times as a more important than the specificity of the degree that you're actually studying and I hope that makes sense that I don't have a clear you know just but for that it's just that we know we know there's an over the I mean i've looked at a lot of studies. And we know there's an over abundance of business degrees. Amongst students. Who weren't up who are not able to find jobs once they get out even social science degrees. And I just wonder how the hire have their dressing notes. If they continue to push the states through no one that they're gonna have a hard time finding a job once I get out of college so I think that from my perspective is what we have to do is help our students and we're doing this daily in case well the connectivity from k twelve into area is let the understood its better understand. The value proposition of the degree and where they might earn the credentials and earn the standard of living that they want to choose an opportunities that are there for down and let them self select into what where they want to go and what they want to do and I think that's a cultural thing in arkansas it's generational that we've got we still cannot do enough work to to narrow that gap on help you having students understand. The value of the opportunities and let them self select and where they want to distinguish themselves whether that's an automotive technician or or a phd in in physics I think that that's key to what we're doing and again backing into a I don't think that our institutions necessarily stand up to greece because they don't think there's jobs at the end of those I think there are a lot of transferable skill sets again that come out of these degrees that are a value. Thank you thank you thank you senator singer hickey thank you mister chair up I will go back to the long the long phone that we were discussing a minute ago and I understand this is the first time that money's been put in there and staff it actually pulled me the statute so I was reading through there so I could somewhat remember it but I guess my thing is is that at this point and I guess we can do this later too but i'd go hidden black to get start getting this established that each one of those record asked her are also going to have to come before the legislature so it's my understanding there's not an appropriation for this phone of course since it's been the first time so I know there have to be a governor's letter as it relates to that specific wine but what I would hope and I know that would come through DF and a is that each one of those requests come to separately so if one of the colleges won't and I see the minimum has to be a hundred thousand or more. If it needs to be a hundred and hundred and one thousand for a certain colleagues that we just get a governor's later for that so that we would know what each specific one words. And I actually think that's probably the appropriate way because I know the legislature is supposed to be involved in a specifics in appropriations so. Is there a chance plan to do it that way or did you have some other other view that you were going to try to come in and just get the whole four million whatever it was in one failed sweep are initial plan was to have a a governor's letter to get that appropriation into dhs appropriation act for the the program. But we we are still working to develop the role so we can add some stipulation to have a review through here there is also the the review of the higher education coordinating board before any loan is is approved as well but we can we can add it there the report to you as well priority any approval and i'm looking at statute here and and again for my standpoint you know I think that the legislature is going to have to I think it's appropriate that they're they're included on each one of those requests because just to be blight what I don't want to happen is for you not that it would down here but one member community say why won't this four million dollars from our college none of the other members here know what's going on and that's some have given as a loan. And I want to make sure I know somebody else ask you about the rate. You said the right was point o two percent point point two I believe is what we have set in the in the rule that we're working on right now point two percent is are you just saying two percent point two percent when I special o o two is going to be the right on that thing which is basically nothing nothing and that's my politics could be construed as basically just funding for an institution through not alone I mean I understand they be paying back basically just principle but I do believe that all of that needs to come through the legislature on it individual basis and mr chair I don't know if we could have stay after work on that because again I understand this is the first time that this has happened but. I think it's critical that it does come before peer on each one yeah we can flag it but I also think we need to see what the rules say I mean because a lot of the concerns may be negated by the way the rules are written and benefits and allocation based on merit and need and everything else it's eight formula and not arbitrary then i'm not sure we would step in in then make it arbitrary that we would have the ability to do that if we were if we were taking a sound formula. That was allocating money for you know four projects. That was based on true numbers and then we came back and said now opportunity would not make ABCD and e should be the first lines at ad want to see the rules before even I guess I personally would want to wait on what our involvement should look like sure but we haven't provided any appropriation mailing we're going to have to provide appropriation for the entire amount at one time or we're going to have to do it as those requests come in and I just feel like it's more prudent transparent if we do each one individually that's all i'm asking yeah i'd like to see the rules version we can work from there thanks sir is there a senator sorry reps in a wooden you better not be center you get her name so he was german. Apologize this mountain already been asked where I need to verification. Early positions there are over two years vacant how many of those are budget. Do you know I don't have the number on that now I will remember the institutions their positions any. Any of their positions that they budget it wants an unbudgeted down the budget ones don't count toward their their insurance they only pay per the the field positions. It's not not similar to the way state agencies have if they have a budget in vacant position they still pay insurance institutions do not have that as well as the the state funding for institutions none of that is allocated directly for positions or salaries of the have increases in position counts or anything they don't request additional state funding all of their funding is solely based on that productivity formula so any position changes aren't related to state funding requests in your leather yes that you already do the chairman of the committee. You stay here that it was twenty seven new positions yesterday tone okay of those twenty seven how much. Will you properly increase any for those sale of those no positions that would it it will not be that's the next agenda I don't we haven't gotten to that item yet on there on the agenda so that the appropriation level itself will not increase or decrease based on those position changes. One more question if they may message german. Only entries that you are is it shown anywhere in your budget. Interest on interest is there any institution how do they handle that. It is not shown within the budget revenue then in their cash funding do you know how much interest income the institutions earn or money that they have devastated not on me now I don't I would have to get together that information for you to report that to you or do they no sir by each institution collect that yesterday do they show it anywhere on any of their fund then yes and I do believe they show that on there on their yearly financial reports. I think it's thank you mr chair I want to know what does. Department of higher have already for facilities and maintenance without these of the long program that's coming into being. For for maintenance i'm facilities we have nothing dedicated to that further from the department level there there is no statement funding dedicated to maintenance of facilities on the hiring campuses and for critical maintenance how much has been recommended for critical maintenance. For hiring it so during that the buying of the recommendation for deferred maintenance was around three billion dollars with almost three hundred million of that being defined is critical maintenance on campuses so we're looking at around three hundred million and critical maintenance needs with no ongoing dedicated funding for that from the state and that would not be subject to a request for a loan but the institution that they could for any of those needs as they rise to that those levels to request a loan from this fine but up until this point there hasn't been any money in that fund to be able to to disperse once too anyone this would be the first time that funds would be allocated to it Regular state treasury appropriation so we wanted to request an individual appropriations you'll see we ask for the four seven point four million in the event that they the fed federal allocation reaches that level that we have that authority in the appropriation. All right thank you member swimming questions on e two. What's where the committee will get emotioned to a dop got a second in discussion on the motion seeing none all those in favor significant saying I suppose motion carries that's going to take us to f. It's rice you're welcome proceed thank you mister chairman henry rice beer legislative research. So if you'll please look at a document titled summary of institutions of higher education which should be item f on your desk. It's a summary of appropriations that we hope or sister in your decision making today. You'll be looking at and making a decision on the appropriations for treasury cash and other appropriations that are in the binder there are three parts to the summary the first part you will see is that's on the first page that's for treasury appropriations which are paid from the revenue stabilization find that's general revenue educational excellent and work force two thousand funds so if you read from left to right in the columns it shows the institutions or the fund shows the pages that the appropriation appears on in the manuals and then the authorized appropriations that they currently have for this fiscal year. And then the ahec b recommendation that's the arkansas education coordinating board recommendations for fiscal year twenty twenty five which is next fiscal year. Then the following columns show the change in dollar amount for the next fiscal year as well as the percent change from the current authorized appropriation levels the foreright column has asterisks in it and one astras will show line item changes to astrisks will show either an addition or deletion of a line item and three astrisks will indicate the deletion or addition of a new appropriations section and if you look at the bottom of the first page you will see the total for the four year institutions on the second page of your hand out. You will see the total for the two year institutions in the same format and these are still be treasury fund appropriation summaries. On the third page is the beginning of the cash appropriation summaries. Now these are the ones that are paid from tuition and fees sales and federal funds it is also in the same format. And on the last page we have what we call other appropriations on the handout. It includes tobacco funding special revenues from court filings that go to the university of arkansas and ular law schools and breast cancer research funds among others mister chairman that's all I have on this summary. That wouldn't thank you i'm gonna turn over center hammer hit a quick question I think on maybe what some of these cuts mean for henderson. All right sinner hammer your recognized repeater question and then whoever needs to answer just recognize yourself at the time. Morning thank you just the question is with the formula showing cuts to henderson. And if I remember right there still an outstanding long bounce that borrowed so can you just give serve update on the balance the intent and with those cuts how you plan on being able to make the payment make the adjustments in other areas thank you sir herman miss chairman members of the committee i'm more introduce our new chancellor better some state university so we might recognizing from another part of state chance of doctor trade berry who arrive don't campus two months ago three months ago now we're very fortunate to have him and i'll let him can speak to the question and also have some additional information after with the committee about what's been going on since twenty nineteen with the issue system when we came in to assist henderson this is a roger more or capo I and so will be glad the answer any other questions you might have chester so yes sir we are we paid on that that loan about a court of million dollars and we understand that a our obligation and we're working hard to meet that obligation you need to know that to achieve your question will it make it more difficult our accounting part yes sir it will make it more difficult but we're doing our part to do conservative budging we're just about to start budgeting cycle right now we feel good about our budgeting where we are right now and so we're going to continued bandways where we meet that obligations are. Okay mischer. Would you refresh my memory as tell that there was a ten minute alone phone member right six we're doing that six million sixty sorry interest inflation one up there please no please where where did that money originally from that's why i'm trying to remember and how is it going to go back into the higher ad institutions or was that our general revenue I just try to remember as a budget stabilization trust fund so it goes back to the trustpilot center ham okay so find it definitely makes loans from every month to different agencies and entities okay all right I will will mention for the committees. Information. When we became involved in hedderson and twenty nineteen obviously i've said many terms. The easiest thing would have been to close the doors and give you the keys there has been a lot of hard work but a lot of people. The staff at hinterson state university took a cut to their salaries. They took a cut to their retirement and none of them have had a reason since then and to anyone who is still working on that campus. Who was there when all of the started they have my greatest admiration because the easiest thing would have been for them to go somewhere else but they stuck it out. But in terms of uh changes that have been made you've all obviously know some of the cuts that we had to may would just can't burden perspective. The personnel services alone at henderson and twenty nineteen was thirty four point six million dollars. In twenty twenty three we had reduced that down to twenty point third million dollars obviously there are a lot of sacrifice none of people lost their positions and what I stated about salaries and retirement that they'll never get back but the difficult decisions that need to be made have been made and we have a lot of work still left to do what I would tell you what chance of he is a recruiting machine. And has already been through every high school in area that's really how we're going to get out of this you're not going to have money to get us out of it we're gonna have to recruit our way out of it you've heard coach is going to say that before we're going to recruit our way out of it and also be very mindful of our physical stature and and find ways to keep reducing cost but also look at our whole footprint and see if there are other ways that we can maybe fan some dollars to help pay back but we will meet our obligation we do ask for your flexibility and understanding as we continue down this path well no one recommends you because you you jump for off age you have commanded writedashship and put it back in the right direction so I do want to comment you for that I just want to know that as far as the connection between the formula reduction and your ability to make the obligation that you currently have what your plans were but I do want to comment for that in mischairman appropriate time I have a question for you of a pleasure thank you are in on this so is your question for hinters today issue it is okay. Sinner you're recognized thank you mister chairman. So just just to with regard to the loan you pay back a quarter million dollars if I recall that was in one look some but that that was like three four years ago correct you haven't made any payments since then correct how long did that is it supposed to be paid back I want to say twenty twenty eight was what stuck in my brain but I can't remember how long it period time it was supposed to be sir the payments began I think this december and will be paid out I think it's around the eight hundred thousand per year until it's paid off about nine hundred thousand till it's paid off okay and there's no interest on that it's just correct okay that's why they are so that's the way that the stability stubble is stabilization trust when it's always been there is nothing new there thank you I think it's in just fills your question for henderson alright so much and thank you all for the work that you're doing is can be interesting saying you would henderson there were a customer saying that good luck to you because we're I invested in in hoping that this institution continues to throw could you tell me if this is going to entail an increase in student fees these cuts is that how we're going to make up the curtail we're going to do that we anticipate that we will increase this year we have not increased or the past two years and that was on purpose for our student's sake in recruiting but we do know that we're gonna need to make up some ground that we have lost we know that I as we've already pointed out with the laws of productivity funding we've got to make up that ground as well but we will try to be as prudent as we can I will tell you also senator that this year we were chosen as the most affordable university in the state of arkansas we are proud of that distinction and we are going to get to you even if we have to raise. Fees that we will hold that distinction in the years to come as well because that's that's very important to us especially in that part of the state. Are there any two year programs that you have that would make your students eligible for the our future scrant which I think is being under utilised i'm a bit proponent of it. Any of those programs no I am not just moment we we have partnerships with our two years like a few three rivers that do offer those for our future but not henderson does not have any bills thank you thank you mister june currently thank you reps in wood. Also a wallet command what you have been through down there and completely endurance the child shown particularly though students in the employees. Um. Can you in your review and looking at changes that needed to be made his only has anyone looked at the. Oh. For a lack of better word to prosecution but those involved I mean all that was explored reps wouldn't the legislative audit was sent in my understanding was sent to the prosecuting attorney but I think I would say i'm no expert my system duly bases here as well and I want to comment her in her team for all they've done for him or some bit to your question there was nothing illegal it was done I would just call it. Poor management I guess is the best word I can use that I can say in public as to what happened we've we've looked under every leave trying to make sure there was not something done illegally it was just very poor management basically. Scholarshipping too many students too much for you didn't have enough people paying the bills and it called up to him that really caused the beginning of the problem and giving raises when they didn't need to and at all snowballed and once it started snowball and there was no way to stop it. Okay. What about the board this is the same. Is it an advisory board now it's a totally all the none of the make sure i've got this right none of the board members that were on the board at henderson state are still on there we do have a board of visitors we put two positions on the issue system board when henched him henderson became probably a issue system we had two positions that represent henderson they are not former board members in I will save for there for them I don't think in a lot of ways they were perfect we're provided to proper information and a timely fashion because that I know all of them individually they all love him and state university so I think some of that again was poor management of not providing the board is something we take great product they should system office is providing our board they're timely information the information they need to make decisions. I don't think that was done about a previous administration at henderson that led to that but but certainly they note but none of them are currently on the board of histories or a member of the trustees so so jones borrow. It will lower rock the administration has been dp and bad every day in the result of what's happened in what's being done the answer is really what I tell i'm sorry interrupted represent wooden what I really say to people who ask me kind of what what is it our point was the system was function is your kind of back office a second sort of as to make sure whatever rogers got we're looking at saying okay you know this is this is good or maybe we need to go this direction necessarily the benefit that we provide is kind of that I wouldn't call it oversight directly but but really more partnership of of of collaboration that we prevent what our would you like her per staff as I will concern thus in the body of the legislature. Is the fact that the traditional responsibility to that were the band didn't locate it what were they. Or they're using turkneks or accounting situations that they can just plan our parts of that nothing was false repaired to my knowledge and we'll look at and looking back to her if she would use that term. Into the legislature's credit you came back once we went through this process you all came back and I think addressed this problem going forward one the biggest challenges was what what we would call days cash own hand they were down to ten maybe seven duly standing up back there they were down to seven days cash on hand so you guys last session came back with a bill that requires that reporting to the board and I believe that report goes to the. Uh general assembly as well and the eighty eight vat as well to try it disest the biggest indicator july will tell you and I can get representative that's the biggest indicator of whether or not you're in a helping financial state and that's if they had known that like we will be able to know now you'll be able to tell that somebody is in trouble you're some of that is going to pluctuate if you got a construction project going on huge construction that's going to change your day's cash on him but if it's over a period of time then yes there is reason to be concerned. But the to your credit you have addressed that I believe going forward thank you thank you mister german thank you thank you for answering some questions sinner hammer. To get a question for the I don't think shane want to answer I can from my colleagues they won't be too many are you. Oh you have a question on uams. Look at you. Yes sir. Yeah. Comma misrevised chancellor. We didn't need the rest of you to come we could just heading in the every. I think last year we got to answer a question for the event so sinner hammer go ahead and ask your question in its whoever needs to recognize themselves to be to answer. Thank mischairman the if i'm reading the paper from reading the numbers right. There's a year is it a sixty million dollars additional request or can you. It's on the university arts or medical science sixty sixty million my readnet rate and can you give me some idea of why the sixty million yes my name is amanda george i'm the cfo through that's in our cash appropriations we have been growing over the last several years and we're requesting about a two point four percent increase in our cash appropriations for next year with the opening of some of our new facilities on the campus. Okay and will any of that. Assist you are you are you operative full comparison we've had a large discussion about the nursing shortage we've given you selfies disheal funding are you are you operating at full capacity now as far as you room to you have they can floors. We are still working on improving our capacity it has improved but we still have action plans around continuing approvement into the next year so as far as asking for sixty million and yet your facilities not operating at full comparison because of staffing issues of barge two which said right. Why is there not more emphasis on the staffing issues to take care of the room that you have versus continued to advance when you can't keep for what you have the lesser it less I missed something if I did please please edge cable there additional appropriations will allow for that growth we plan to move to for capacity and if we didn't have the additional appropriations there we wouldn't continue to be able to grow okay because my changes is there at full capacity creates more. Capabilities for more surgeries more billing it all covered trickle down effect so that's just what i've always wondered is if we keep adding on but we're not taking care of what we got are filling up what we have in order to produce more surgeries more services that would allow more billing they were crake general you all greater revenue so it's correct they are additional growth drives more margin to our bottom line that will help us financially can in last question is the pain of panders it's a hundred seventy five it's been appropriate but there's no funding directed to it but the appropriation is remaining in place in the event of money does come available to give to that clinic my interpreting that correctly yes that's correct alright thank you very much thank mister all right thank you sure chest filled as this on your thank you mischeer in good morning to you. Tell me about the thirty million data deficit that we had been hearing so much about. I am happy to report that is not thirty million anymore we what is it it is pizza there twelve million windows I will put an asteric by that we don't don't don't list my bubble okay we have done a lot of work to improve are finally at all as I was just so excited that my brain stopped working as as direct what happened I was just going to I just want to be fully trained we have put a light of work into turning around our financial performance and have put several initiatives in place that are starting to have an impact on our bottom line you may have seen in the newspaper that you might skip a thirty million dollar a lot some payment for a three forty b repayment that um we received in january and that is what turned our financial situation to the past but we are projecting to maintain financial stability in the coming minds so we are we needed that boost to cover the year to date last and it has slipped as positive and we intend to hold study thank you so very much thank you misses you. Since johnson your question viewed. The. Be a reckon answer thank you miss chairman on our own hand at e one on page five I was just trying to go down and they were a numbers jump out I can eat an explanation you had a reduction of three hundred and sixty four positions and housekeeper down to twenty five and when I see their app presumably actually senator period is disgusting well that's that's got to be outsourcing and and I outsourcing is not necessarily a net reduction in spending i've just trying to see is there definitive savings realized or are we just. Making these date employees private employees for their net neutral for us but it was improved. Service levels we had a lot of turnover in that group and we evaluated internally if we would be able to improve the service to our employees and our patience really buy outsourcing the service said it was more stable in am the cost was actually about net neutral okay and that's good news alright they entered thank you very much thank you mister. Reps count off your your question for your. You recommend thank you mister chair my question is going if you don't mind gather may some information that so I notice a lot of times we will have agencies that come in and they have an employee that is actually least from uams we did it where that either secretary of health and we've done it for other positions. And through that process i'm noticed a lot of times that we appropriate you the salary but we also appropriate that full salary again to the other agency so what I would like to know is all employees that you have least or their part of their salary is being covered by another state agency. And what you're appropriation is for that and then i'm going to have to find out what that agencies appropriation is for their salary also if you can provide me with that information. We'll get there for you okay thank you. Alright so no hammers is related to recognized thank you and just briefly the the environment it uams and as far as retain each of physicians the physician level not not at a one hundred eight that what is your what is your retain each experience as far as holding your physicians throughout the system. So my name is michelle isles and the chief people and culture officer I don't pull it michael little closer so thank you so i'll repeat myself my name is michelle while i'm the chief people and culture officer I don't have what we typically call a turnover number specific to positions but it is data we can get for you. The. I'm sorry I didn't hear the last thing over the drill up I can get the data for you I don't have it specific to physicians but arm we can pull that date and provide it to you okay and and I would appreciate that the. The sixty million attraction also. Is that going to be. For the purpose of additional salaries or additional positions outside of those that provide direct medical services such as are you an expand like for example your de department or any other departments that are actually non medical. Now it's it's further medical side strictly for the medical okay thank you all right thank you reference wouldn't. Yes thank you that you they campus are you amazing. You over okay why am I done. What would you have can you explain why you would have three hundred and thirty eight administrative positions and twenty six hundred and thirties two thousand six hundred and thirty six academic. Sorry i'm stephanie garden on the provised chief strategy offers for it you am us so I think your question was why do you have six thousand two hundred academic positions and why do you have two thousand administrative one would you have almost even thousand positions that are academic. The. They were academic in the new have nine thousand three hundred and thirty eight positions that are administrative. I don't know if those numbers I don't know the numbers of how many we have of each type but I can tell you that from faculty or all of our physicians have academic titles so even though their clinicians they're also accurate emissions so some of these people are going to be classified on the academic side is that what you're asking if they're world war would department show us two thousand six hundred and thirty six academic. Teaching I would have soon as teaching positions and then thousand three hundred and thirty eight positions that are considered administration I think you're looking at all the staff for the hospital as well as for the campus so we're both all of those positions are lumped in that run the hospital and also that handle the academics of all of our colleges. So the administration for for the entire campus is lumped into those numbers well this is this is a job. So i'm happy to try and address that cell on our campus of uams we actually have three business lines one as you're aware of is our colleges and we call that our university so what we would put an academic or those people who are really working inside of our colleges but then our other two business lines are what we call our clinical enterprise and our research group and we have a lot of people who do research work on campus and all of them are falling into that administrative category so I think that's what you're looking at as you know while it might say administration they do a lot of other things that are not just typical like my nurses are in there and even people who are totally dedicated to our research lines and the academic is really referring to those people employed by our college is doing that education teacher will can you give us a a broad down of the whole was liver in barbed and research so would you like us we can give you a breakdown for those three business lines and where they fall now three hundred positions there listed is minus how many of those are involved in research they would be considered them yet we can certainly break their down but I have lots of people involved and research one job classification easily to talk about is like um we have people who are just doing the arm the research writing and the grants writing and things like that related to research so we can certainly break that administration down a little arm clearer for you. Well you're not only one universe fair volume they have all has torn in and thirty six in australia possessions and twenty five hundred and eighty three academic. So having the sound need to be a better clarification that I mean I breakdown of other position types of internet category no problem thank you thank you mister chairman you sir thank you springer. Good morning thank you miss insurer I just want to know this budget include the campuses that you have here in little rock on colonel glen and in north little is way out is it is that those officers as well yet it's all of the uams is all of the mess facilities across correct ok thank you. All right thank you but i'm not seeing it any other questions with that we need to have we need to adopt or look to adopt the recommendation to have emotion i've got a motion got a second in discussion on the motion seeing none I was in favor of significant saying I don't suppose motion carries it's going to bring us to section g we're going to take these at will have a I guess an overall presentation if i'm looking at it correctly and then we're going to take these of one section or one division at a time so department corrections come up first and we'll get a community cractions transfer board and then s. Yeah before we do that robert I think you were going to give a summary of how the budget manual works. The. They don't want to listen to their all leading in a technology and comprehensive. The. Thanks all right let's give them just a minute to make their way out if you got a conversation in the audience we want to kind of continue on today if you could take your conversation outside please. The. Again thank you for being here but if you've got a conversation there's plenty of room out front to have your conversation going take it out we're about to begin on the next section. The. All right II don't think I want to ask against if you've got a conversation that you need to have taken out everybody was really respectful when I harried was applicants show the same courtesy alright thank you you're welcome to present thank you mister robert breck or defo I just wanted to go over I was asked to go over the budget manual and just sort of how it works as some of you may not be wherever some may have forgotten a but that this will just be an old review on how what the manual shows there's a lot of really good information in here yeah you know if you're wanting to find that on any particular part of the department you can find it in our kind of demonstrate you know how the budget manuals put together and and how you can do that if you go to page two of the manual and I can I believe all of yours are like the one i'm looking at it's going to be after the red tabs. The. You're going to see a table or contents for the budget manuals and keep in mind that these budget manuals are only going to be for the for the big six agencies it's not going to be for every department but but you'll see a table of contents in i'll just start at the first and ensure you can have out works with the department of corrections if you got a page two what that's going to show this is an overview of the department of corrections and it's going to show if you look at the top line those are appropriations for the agency and if you look at the bottom part of the table those are the funding portions but which you can see if you could just go to the top line you'll see canada reimbursement you'll see the actuals from twenty two twenty three those are actual numbers for appropriation if you look below there those would be the actual numbers for funding you can see that they didn't have a fun balance to start off with you can so much general revenue to this real quick and because I was even confused on this idea found that the first time went through it's the last red table in your own sort of. It's what he's talking about about the halfway through the three year binder if you want to try to find it. But you can see i'll just use canada reimbursement it's the first one on the line and it may be a top of of conversation anyway but you can see the department of corrections their appropriations summary on page two and you can see within the department of corrections and this would be the parent agency you you can have canada reimbursement counted attention facility reviewed the department of correction criminal attention committee expenses and transportation on juvenile offenders has kind of a good example because juvenile offenders was transferred to public safety and a long with the criminal attention for soldier reviews all kind of show you have that worked but you can see the actuals from twenty two twenty three since we've already closed that out you can see the actuals you can see the percentage of order funding came from then you can look at the next columns you can see the current fiscal year and that's twenty three twenty four which would be fiscal year twenty four you can see what was authorized by the legislature by the by the acts you can see the budget often times as will be pretty closely aligned you can see how they were they expect their revenue to come from and in then you can go on to twenty four twenty five that's what we're going to be looking at now the legislative recommendation that you see is a carryover from the from the general session then you've got the agency request and I mentioned that for instance the transportation on the juvenile offenders are going to see a zero for agency request in the last of columns for executive recommendation and agency request that's because I was actually transferred to the department of public safety so if you that's that's the summary for that department if you go to page four i'll just go to show you how each one of each one of these items and you'll see e sixty eight canada reimbursement each one of those items is going to have its own page and you can drill down into what is actually showing on that page. So the way the manual works you've got the department broken down into segments and then everything rolls back up to the to the top when you when you do the funding but but if if you're interested in any particular item in a part of a department you can drill down in these manuals and in and find it in and i'll be glad to help anyone if anybody wants to ask any questions or if you would all meet with me privately i'd be more than happy to show any of you any of this information uh should you need it. But if you got a page for you'll see that the appropriations for refunds and reimbursements and this is for the canadian reimbursement you'll see that at the top. So you can see that their total funding and a four twenty two twenty three there was twenty six million eight hundred and fifty thousand then you can see twenty what was authorized in in twenty three twenty four slightly more than that you can see the budget and then you can see what they're requesting for in in twenty four and twenty five I only bring this one up I think it's a good example although it's at the first one in the manual it's also going to be a topic of conversation because they're actually going to be running a little short in this particular loan item and they'll be asking for a supplemental funding in the in the fiscal session because we're actually running a little short as you're recall we went from thirty two to forty dollars on the canada reimbursement and that's obviously a huge increase in that that is you know it has had an impact on the budget but obviously it's helped those county jails with their with their funding. So if you're if there are any questions and be more than happy to take them and like I said that i'll be more than happy to meet with any of you privately if you want to you don't want to ask any questions publicly I certainly understand that there are no dumb questions and in and it's really easy once you figure out the manual it's really easy to drill down into a specific department or a division in the inc exactly where the money is now as some people will tell you some departments will tell you to give me the money and will just spend it and you we don't need any of this err there may be some secretaries who could handle that i'm sure there are but this really keeps the budget in check in and it shows how everything is funded in and shows her every every dollar is appropriate and I think it's very helpful now i'll discover throw this out for representative is i'm sure he's going to be interested in the interest income err keep in mind that this is an abbreviate a budget manual and stuff it's not the full budget manual though that we were typically have it in a full session but I have asked it in requested report of all the interest though that will be accumulated or earned by every agency and i'll get that report to you. Thank you members and while we're moving through what will be asking for is an exact wreck I mean if you if you make a legislative recommendation for instance from make that motion that's going to be without any additional legislation that may have occurred throughout the course of last session so the exact way would be more true I would anticipate as I think they've discussed a number of governors letters of these things will adjust that will not happen into again insertion what we're doing here is just going through and allowing these appropriations to be drafted again knowing that there will be some changes to those appropriations to the former governor's letters began so we will be looking for exact rex were moving through with that is in body are these quote i've got three on the border these questions for him about the manual and how the manual works. Everybody know if this if it's not for robert hundred manual works good and let's let's work backwards to the senate johnson you're with the manual i'm not sure who this would be for but if this is on and on page four or you just went over a robert think any jail reimbursement that we get twenty six or eight million who are don't get is what the I call the demand that's of is is is there a number you can give me that our sheriffs will tell us this is what we're actually going to need in aggregate write it in that we will be with an are talking to the department of corrections about what's needed we know the twenty six point isn't quite enough their averaging and may miss a slightly run eighteen hundred and fifty a prisoners per day right now the prisoners state prisoners in the counter in the carrier yeah they're averaging about eighteen hundred and fifty that's a little bit they're gonna be a little bit short with the twenty six eighth they think they're going to be averaging more than that though i'll just tell you that the executive recommendation would be four point two million dollars in an in addition to that and if that will we think that will adequately take care of any any demand of the of the county jails it should and they do have carry forward language as well so if they don't use that funding they can use it in the next and I believe you said that would be in a request it supplemental fiscal session yeah we do it what do you would be in the first that's right so we do agree they'll so they do okay all right and I know that's a moving target but anyway I think thank you for that thank you mister charles. Reps in spring thank you mister I just want to follow up with the request regarding a agency accounts that have into a sparing unparticularly interested in the account at the university of arkansas little rock there is an account that they have the passports during interest so I and I are accounting division is working on a report now for all the departments I assume they can get that for the higher red institutions and that's certain on that but i'll certainly check on it they're interested in heads about one point five million dollars back thank you synergetic thank you message here and perhaps it would be better to wait for the department of corrections but I would be interested in knowing how many women are working in that those institutions and there has been something that has been brought to my attention that a large number of those individuals who are charged with keeping the prisoner site keeping the person of safe if you will or whim and I just like to know how many women are actually working in and the department of correction and I and I don't have that number but we do have a woman that's heading the department of corrections now and I want to apologize to republically we put the secretary's name in the budget manual we must spell her team as she was actually a name the secretary of the day before we were printing these manuals and wanted to make sure we got our name in here one to make sure it was ended in ay unfortunately the the transpose a couple of them so it's not the wednesday it's actually lindsey and II apologize to republican and inevitance of privately as well will forgive you this time thank you any other just need to know how many women how many feed me all garage you have and I think that would be interesting to know i'll leave that for the department thank you so much for that alright thank you any other questions in the banking. Are at and then we're going to move on all right sector wallace I think you're presenting first. Okay i'm sorry I will have a summary. Doubt in your recognition. Thank you mister chair mine is done common with the bureau the let's say research I know you just heard a lot about this but I would still bet if I didn't tell you myself so we'll start on page two with the department appropriations some of your for you the department of corrections administration shared services alright so looking at the far right executive executive recommendation calm for fiscal you're twenty five shared services totals out of one hundred eighty seven thousand one hundred seven million twenty five thousand two hundred forty nine dollars for the upcoming fiscal year. This does look a little different there's a couple of preparations your own out those have now been discontinued those are transferred to the department of public safety that's criminal attention facility review criminal attention committee expenses and transportation of jubile finners that was actrio six of two thousand twenty three that that move those over the public's eighty seven or talk about this on friday for the public safety presentation. Looking at page four we can move on to county jail reimbursement uh we have a total of twenty six million. Eight hundred fifty three thousand six hundred seven dollars there and as mister mentioned we are paying them forty dollars a day. And lastly we have the department the correction's cabinet level appropriation on page eight. The total there is one hundred sixty million one hundred seventy one thousand six hundred forty two dollars happy to get any of these specifics in questions but mr chair there are no significant change levels in that appropriation with that happy to take any questions. Thanks sir members we're going to open up for questions in your chesterfield mine is the same she not for dalton but it is but the department. What ratio of your guards are female. Thank you senator chesterfield lindsey wallace can that secretary and whole apologies from voice i've been fighting and ever respiratory infection so I apologize we have not ran those numbers recently that the last count we were over fifty percent of female in our staff in ratios I can get you the more accurate members of the market we are direct yes me some of fifty percent that's what I needed to know thank you so much me. Alright thank you. Repson of shepherd thank you mister chair I just have a quick question about the transportation of juveniles if you explain what they do in our local stupid hours committed to the department of a correction or is there any contact which you've announced and so I actually think that you're talking about the portion that's been transferred to public safety the criminal detention facility standards do not fall underneath the department of corrections anymore so I think they'll be better better served to answer that question okay thank you yes ma'am. Alright thank you rips him kevin thank you mister chairman thank you mine's going to be dealing with the shared service paying in which is on our page eight just real quick so instead of putting the medical contracts in professional you're actually separating that out is that what I see is happening so we'll have have a better idea what's going on with the medical services yes ma'am then the other question I have if I had lost my mind on the regional jails we get eight point seven million dollars. Middle it i'm alert mr brown answered the question but I do believe that that fund balance is at zero way reallocated that money under a previous administration to help with the white river detention center remodel so that we could open up that as a community correction center but i'm gonna pass the mike to mr brown check round chief finance loss reporting the corrections reps in kevin all sector was was correct that's one appropriation that we don't see the need for right now where we've already exhausted that phones were on to our other funds for the white river construction so we could do away with that appropriation yes man i've talked and conferred with my staff and we can do it with them. Mr chair that would be my motion when we get here is to get rid of that appropriate thank you. Alright thank you like the chair taken onto their subject could you give us the update on their per s and with white river remodel just can you give us a snapshot please yes there are mister hammer so white river has a capacity of around a hundred and seventy and we're looking to finish that out in the next few minutes and hopefully have bodies in those beds early part of the fiscal year august is kind of what we're looking at okay and by the way congratulations a good choice in my opinion the the other question I have is. And eventually we're going to get a new jail or you know new prison which should release them the capacity and if I mistake anything from his characterize anything straight me out but it should release some of the capacity into the county jail level although when you know we had a high number of misdemeanors back filled our spaces but. How do you see a plane out if if the if the new prison is about three years out for we don't know how do you see a plane out as far as effect in your budget when county jail reimbursement may not be as big of a need or the interest paid will always be a need and just cut up give us some of your inside on this so to to deal with the beds issues we've done a lot internally to try to bring in and bring the numbers down for county jailback up and we've added approximately fourteen hundred the border corrections has approved around fourteen hundred beds looking at you know our staffing ratios and everything like that to help believe some of that but as you can see and as mr testified to the the amount of expenses for county jail reimbursement is still there and I was speaking with uhm the shares association earlier they have a light of unserved warrants that are out there and know we have scandals that we could bring in I expect will probably we always have some need for county jail reimbursement um in the intermediary we've talked also about the need for looking at out of state beds we don't know exactly what that need is at this point but we know that we will we feel like we've done everything within our existing structures we have a couple of places where there used to be a community correction center um in the pine blood complex chairman magnesses mentioned to both myself and director paying that you wanted us to look at trying to figure out a way to utilize that structure for something for bad alleviation as well so i. To be able to give you like a fine idea as far as budget I i'm not certain at this point in time but I think there's going to be a continuing need especially with the protect act that we bring more beds online and if we don't then county jails are going to have to help us alleviate that burden and I would just say this if if we're entertaining the idea of out of state beards I would prefer to expand the county jail capacity and work out some arrangement to keep those in mates in state as opposed to that so I would I would advocate for an expansion on the county jails if we could work out that that arrangement between the department and and the county so I would just like to get that out there in the open yeah thanks in hammer senior tucker. Thank you mister chair we've discussed this secretary while sent in up I just want to make the point here that we're talking about talking about bringing more beds online that's been a big traffic of discussion over a long period of time and I just want to make sure that we're not looking only that maximum security beds that were also looking at possibly reintroverts treatment beds best for community correction and that sort of thing is that part of the department's plan yes i've absolutely some of those beds that i'd mentioned that we brought online over the department over two hundred and eleven of those were in the community direction centers that we are absolutely looking at that we're also looking at streamlining a restaurant this is department wide in being more inclusive between the divisions so that we have a better stream framing car surreation to community we're looking at all of those things are ok sounds good i'd love to be engaging as discussions thank you thank you. See twenty one please recognize congratulations On the report I have here they have sixty three hundred and fourteen positions. Boarding that they're included corrections community parole and senate in commission Forty five hundred and twenty seven is in the department of corrections. And of their. For the five hundred two hundred and eighty one they could be back in over two years is there does security per today that you can't feel the possessions or. The great majority of those are yes I think there's some there's some men or health positions and some maintenance positions that are included and that was as well but the great majority are security do you know of the three hundred and fifty seven that are very good throughout your department need to division. Do you know how many of those are budgeted positions. I did not have that information I can get it for you but i'd I don't I would be like they're the personnel committee and them. Over two thirty one how many other more security people. Yeah. Yes and. The year. The. Community corrections is what we're the poor old officers and these numbers is that in the community correct corrections how many do you have what what your ratio of boroughly is roll off if I can have deputy director taylor join us at the table she can help us. The. The. You could just recognize yourself for the committee. Elizabeth taylor deputy director for community supervision. Yeah. Okay so for a probation appearal officers there are actually a vacant fifty four positions the fifty four vacant okay those are bad money authorized is five hundred and twenty six how many five hundred and twenty six. It's a ten point two percent they consideration so was worth the ratio for all the time roll off okay fully staffed as one to eighty one eighty national average deal in the sixty range sixty to eighty six and how many me vacant positions that you say you have in the parole of for officers it is fifty four total there is three supervisors also so that would put it at. Fifty seven thank you thank you to stay. Thank you missed you sir thank you all right center flowers thank you congratulations secretary. I want to know our kind of king me and on the end of the land of questions and comments from senator hammer is there something budgeted for. Housing inmates out of state. In your budget. Now may I am not at this time there's not we at when we've started heaven discussions with the administration related to the need for immediate intermediate and long term beds that was part of the discussion but we started with what can we do internally before we move to even looking at what are budgeted amount would be for our state so no ma'am there's nothing in there at this point related to any sort of out of state so I hope that it doesn't get on the table either thank you but I thank you since you're petting thank you mister chair and this question may be for you I know there's been a lot of discussion about. Conversations that were going to have during session I know the jail reimbursement rate account is your reimbursement rate is a sorry is a topic but. The comment that I heard earlier and I don't want to miss characterize it was that there wasn't quite enough or there might be a little short it may be so termed it in in the current number of the twenty six million but did that take into consideration any kind of increase in the reimbursement rate or anything like that because my county jail guys are saying that they're almost a below break even on on that housing the state inmates and so just curious about that and and I know we'll have more conversations later. Um i'm amazed a little at mr brown answer this in twenty twenty two the rate went up to forty it was thirty two dollars before that so there was a pretty significant job from twenty twenty was when it became that amount to what it is in twenty twenty two I understand what you're saying about it not covering all of their expenses I think that fluctuates from county to county and that's night something that we set believe the the governor's office in this body is who kind of perpetuates whatever that rate is were just the pass through for that account and you have anything so some of the some of their concerns may be comparing what our cost per day is in the department of corrections versus what their calls per day using the county so like sir was that we pay forty dollars a day per inate. Our cost per day on our side period is sixty nine dollars and fifty nine cents are monthly expensive average if we go back to you I twenty twenty three remains around two two point three million dollars a month and expenditures the the fate is versus monthly alignments to as we expense those if we have any left over those goes to the the next month expenses for canada reimbursement and like mr brexit we're going to be requesting four point two million dollars come the fiscal session but as of now that that's where we stay in. Follow up here so i've heard i've heard in the higher education discussion talking about you know the the competing for talent and and I know we currently have just a a blanket rate is I understand it across the state but I think what we really what it cost in northwest arkansas not the same as it may be in south arkansas and and and in crawford county may be different because we're competing with you know the folks across the river so I understand the sixty nine dollars and and and I was previously in city council and so when film familiar with the reimbursement rates but I just want to make sure that there's room for a discussion on that as well I don't I don't want to go back and face the the sheriffs and potential lock up if we don't take that discussion. The. Aren't sin who we got reps in a wooden. Oh all follow up on the only cost of maintaining the year. Stay personally and cannot jails. Um what what is the policy. The you'll operate under relative to whose days and account jail who goes or how do you how do you make that decision in the reason the reason i'm asking is because. Baffle super year on that is as soon as they are found guilty then they become state providers who go. But where I run into a car is too hard so so i'm sure if so you hey we need that money to be able to maintain her. Or detention centers and so when you go to talking about creating enough space. It presences them to turn those then you you cutting cutting their income but I would what would be all make a decision relative to who stays in a county jail and is it is it totally own space or is it yes and that is the number of one thing I mean more bringing in the man fast as fast as we can at this point director prime broaden thirty the other day just alone so for us it's a capacity issue we would love to bring as many as we possibly can but at this point where you have the capacity to do so what I have kind of heard the number were over two thousand and our county somewhere between fifteen to eighteen hundred is kind of the number that i've always looked at is as an acceptable number and I understand the funding issue and the mechanism that it is used to help supplement. Now we we are bringing to me and we bring any mates or normally three day at least three times a week so we do bring bringing in big groups and bringing in as many as we can we're maxed out now you get in meets everywhere so we just bring a man as they call some often often times we'll get calls from counties that say a maxed out you can help you the divert from the canadian list in alcohol today county and saturday he up the amount and mr brown. Your provider some services in the tree are in the president system then they don't bring the calling jail mental high often and things like that so that makes the attorney a twenty seven dollar difference in the in while I caused you and what it costs the canal jails hammer. Do they all cost about the same do you all do the report from the county they say is it costless fifty five dollars. You know I believe the counties actually do a report on that we do not track that information I know that in white county coast is about three hundred thousand dollars a year out of our budget but it's the same time then either they receive health operators deserted center. So but you're remaining policy is capacity on you when you have it you get him and take away with what we building now so what we're looking at is a three thousand dollars which obviously if it was here today it would take care of all the county jail back up if we were able to move everybody in today but yes so that's what we're looking at is that three thousand bed facility and then the additional technical violator beds that we talked about at the white river which is a small little subset but it's a significant amount of people for the county sheriffs as well by thank you thank you mister german thank you representative richardson thank you mister chair the when we talk about the expanding the beards i'm curious to know what is the cost to do that as opposed to moving though same inmates at a reimbursement rate to another state is there any savings in moving them rather than creating the additional. What I would they could be about the same amount about the same thing did you could you verify that would you guys be able to verify that information. Senator hammer. Thank you miss share were budging out to the twenty four twenty five on the new jail location do we have the site picked out do we have the plans develop do we have an estimated date as of right now as to when that would store so at this time we're still kind of drilling down into the data to try to find the mice most right location kind of all of pointers seem to be leading to that kind of I forty corridor we don't have any facilities between conway and fort smith I know there have been some sites that have been spotted I don't believe anything has been specifically identified at this point and that's kind of the starting point we're trying to make sure we have the work for us we have the infrastructure needs all of all of the big things that we look for whenever we're trying to put a new facility in just trying to make sure sorry trying to make sure we get the most right location for what we're looking for but we're we're moving as fast as we can but that's where we are right now still trying to identify the perfect location so with regards to the budget and with regards to what we're going to be reimbursing can jails knowing there's gonna be a gap between the twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five and when that new prisons bill you got truth and sensing coming down that's going to hit us before we have capacity to take care of it. What is going to be the solution and do we need to look at more money to be able to be prepared for that solution but you can have all the money in the budget you want but if you're have spots to put him we got a problem yeah I mean it's a capacity issue for us it's always been a capacity issue for us for a long time so trying to get that moving as fast as we can um and I know no one is really in favor of moving out to out of state beds but whether it be expanding county jail operations there's going to be a need for some additional capacity I believe at some point whether like I said it's at the county level or we look at out of state beds all options as far as I know on the table we've talked about kind of all of these worth the governor's office and the department of finance in administration and I believe that there is apple support of whatever needs to be done it's just arriving at the timing and figuring out the right so in my right in my perception. That was truth and sentencing coming down the limited capacity the board not being willing to expand the beds other you know we've even heard to that history then we we are down to either. More money. To be able to send them out of state until we can develop are in two year capacity either at the county jail level or through what senator tucker mentioned while go about maybe you know with the with the step down units i'll call them otherwise we're going to be turned into molos which will be a decision at the at the local level so is this the time to look at increasing this number so that we are able to fulfil what truth and sense he was intended to do either by sending amount of state where capacity is until we can get that county what what is your thought on that. I wish I had the projections for what the truth and sentencing the protect act numbers showed I know that there were some some time lines that were put in place to kind of push off the true impact related to prison capacity. II i'm i'm not certain of what the answer is to that as far as the exact dollar amount I will say that you know we we meet with the sentencing commission we meet with the board we meet with the governor's office and we're talking about all of this stuff so I think everybody is aware of what you're talking about you know this is going to have an impact on the state and trying to get to the right solution i'm just sitting here right in front of you right now not sure what that write solution is at this moment and the budget you get figured is for a forty dollar reimbursement raise that correct yes okay right thank you. Not risk representative you're recognized request. Thank you mister chair of have you given any thought to maybe some alternative housing at and I know in the long run it probably wouldn't help your bottom line is forward money from what you pay the parent county jails but it seems to me like with as many this able in makes it we have and wheelchairs and that kind of thing that with nursing homes that can think that available in the state I mean I would be better to me seem like and going out of state and also even though it might not hip your bottom line it would certainly help the sheriffs across stayed there crown pack transform places for these people to stay here and and stay within god last key from break in the level is there any fault yes sir I wish I had the numbers in front of me I actually had our research team for kind of aging population numbers for me the other day and they're just it's not a small number that we have our population is aging and I think you're right there is a need for us to look at what we could do to better utilize our space for that population director paying an eye and actually mr brown we've we've all kind of had these discussions we've kind of preliminarily talked with us to see if maybe there is any way that we could look at any of their buildings that they have on their complex to transition something into a secure setting for us very early early on in the discussions i've spoken with mr magness about this specifically you mentioned nursing homes to answer your question we're looking at all of it we know that this is a very large problem that we've got to get under under raps and where we are looking at every avenue possible if I may mister. I appreciate you doing that I hope we may we can look at something like that because even if you do even if we build which I would couple years away we're so going to be backed up so anyway appreciate your time and following that thank you yet and some of these quite do have any board members here that might be able to help with some vision and what they are looking to do no sir mr magnus wanted to care but he wasn't able to travel today so no one else is able to nobody else here thank you senator pain thank you mister chair i'm over to your left so as we talk about this three thousand bed facility. You know that sounds rather large and of course location is going to be very hard to choose and and work force. Don't have a huge requirement. I have we thought about. Building three one thousand bed facilities and of course they could come online much quicker than one three thousand bed facilities think anything is after table at this point the the idea with the three thousand bed facility that we can have when we respecting this out with our architect was to have something that was like a complex so you'd have like a thousand beds here that may be were maximum security beds and then a thousand beds here that were I don't know retrieve beds or something else and more over here so they're not all in like we have traditionally very large facilities in the state so more of like a a complex that had some shared services space or my thoughts or you know that that presents some huge challenges in finding the location and the work force and the contractor I mean compared to getting started. Quicker with your three smaller facilities or two smaller facilities owner as so it's all on the table right now we're not settled into this three thousand bed facilities no sir I think we were looking at it in terms of you were able to do a complex like that you wouldn't have to have a medical team or dental team or all of the complement the range of services at three different locations so you would get some efficiencies from an economy of scale kind of that's kind of the perspective we were looking at I mean in business economy a scale plays a factor but sometimes when that skill gets a large it becomes a negative gain thank you so in an on this and we're a little bit off the appropriation I appreciate the discussion in it and that's fine about but one of the things that I think we're. There is someone that is setting a schedule on a time when we've been looking to build a prison for I don't know how many years now we've actually obligated money and said it aside for the construction in prison and it seemed like we're pretty stagnant in even determining a location in then if I can have understand the waste things we're seeing right now at least by the board that this is their call and at this point they've task you all with trying to find some locations but for whatever reason there's no push to finalize and get actual movement on what we're going to do so the longer we delay even though the funds are in hand the longer it's going to be to set it up and the father out we push these issues with county job reimbursement and everything else and so I think work the questions that were having. In regards to what are we even that it with the like we're in an infant state right now in even talking about it is it a thousand bit prisoners of the three thousand and there's a reason for that. Is because no one is making the decision to move forward and not seeing the charles task because it's not the board has been very clear that it is their perview on win and how we move in least in the current standing so I think what we may need to do and that's part of the reason I ask if there were initiate or any you know members here today is have that conversation with them. About is there a timeline I mean have they have they said to your hey we want to have a site selection of three places by july first and I think the answer is no well it's hard to ever minute i'm read you know I put things off as long as that possibly king and just like people naturally do and I think that's where we are so that's what I don't know what the property committee is to have that discussion but that's where we need to be having the discussion if the board is going to maintain that they are or in sell authority of win and where an al a prison is going to be constructed and we're concerned about win and where an al then we need to be asking them. Since you're here thanks end of mine oh oh here in congratulations that everyone else has told you on your new new position my question is current countries above her different figures from different legislators know about that cost for outer state calls per day available. Getting called minimum out of stateless they will be a mississippi texas missouri unless the enter anywhere else that can give us a figure to for comparison yes during the pain mister magness actually tasked director pain with taking a look at some out of state bed so i'm going to deferred to him and let him give you a little bit information that he has. Yes sir we have talked with a couple companies about moving base to texas georgia and for at one even talk about missing but they're going to they're going to charge us probably about the same that we pay our cost per day in arkansas so it'll be about the same amount of money. Roughly what is that approximately seventy dollars a day he had desired including miracle yes sir. A month most add. Yes I process thanks. All right thank you resin arose over here and you're right thank you I just was curious if you could reiterate there was seventy dollars a day was the the average pay rate for out of state so what I would you say. Yes sir that's the price there was quote to me and understand you've already spoke to this and. Just kinda wanted it to hear it again we're saying we're paying the county jails forty dollars a day knowing that they're taking a hit. And then we're recognizing that we could pay out of state at seventy dollars a day which I know that's comparable to the. The rate that you're paying sixty nine dollars and fifty cents. But this kind of want to say. We're hitting our county jails for thirty dollars less than we're willing to pay somebody out of state is that correct yes or in it and includes programming and medical in that cost thank you yes so can you break down then what the programming and medical would be above and behind seven if you excluded that from our cost and he may not have it today but that we were apples to apples and making things make sense there are there's lots of things that happen in the state prisons that are not happening in the county jails and there comes a cost with that against if you can just kind of give us a breakdown of what that looks like and we know it's not going to be the same amongst each just on average sinner hammer this chair and staff mister. The the money that's been allocated for the construction new prison refresh my memory have weary turned that looser we still made changing control that is legislature we we've turned loose some of it at the request of the department if I remember right last year and I think that's correct and then there's another set aside is it still setting there okay yeah we're still setting on we're still setting on it waiting for the request. So it still is still under our perview and still under our authority and said for the was at three hundred fifty million or what was the what's the number we're sitting on which three hundred three thirty five. Three thirty five. So they're going to have to get whenever they get off center and come back to us they're going to have to come back to us for the approval in the meantime if there were other alternatives or other measures that were determined. We could as a legislative branch insert ourself in order to see that that money can be span. Elsewhere or could be spent. On another approach are we are we totally waiting on them or what authority do we have that we could bring shopping forward I mean I would be nervous. About utilizing our one time set aside for prison construction on what would be ongoing cost and were also allowing. You know the game to continue or whatever we want to call it at this point members in this room have been adamant that they don't want to see prisoners go out of stay. Wire prison is going to go out state because of an action here. Not by us we've done our part we set the bunning aside almost multiple years ago. There has been an action by the board on even a site selection. And if a prisoner goes out of state it is because they're in action. And asked the way that I see it. And and so I mean I hope again there'll be proper committees maybe I don't know who it is jpr that we've got a correction subcommittee in alc but we need to have a discussion about what the actual plan is on how we move forward with a present construction because if we don't. Then your county jails are going to continue to talk about how they're underfunded and in an ultimately we're going to find ourselves in the position of having to send people out of state because we have. But they're elected our duties or someone else has of getting this constructed indian. I mean i'm disappointed I think like most of you we set this money sat along time ago. And it is just setting. And it is need to be setting these be put to use we need to be moving forward thank you i'd like to put on table for you to look at building seventy at housekill something my districts on ourself serving you only to go down to that one it might be a good good option for you to deal with thank you they miss you. Senator patent you recognized. And this is for the chair and stuff that money in this set aside does it accrue any interest in cruise interest you sir okay do we know what rate or anything. I don't but we can find it will be as a half way keep up with inflation or we lose and ground every year. It's probably not going to keep up with information just under exactly thank you for saying we need to expedite this push. Are members I think that's kind of cleared the board as far as questions and we're still on g kind of the part one if you flip to your packet here so it's counting jail reimbursement criminal detention facility reviewed armed correction criminal detention community expenses and transportation of june thing to our finders a representative cannot cavenable these has a motion she would like to make and that was with that omission and someone recognize you for that motion thank you mister chair make a motion that week circle executive recommendation with the acception of the regional jails appropriation which is under the shared services paying section of the department of corrections on page number eight thank you at members with emotion we have a second isn't real discussion on the motion. Seeing non others in favor significant saying I others oppose motion carriers going to be on extra pain you are recognized for division correct. Sorry I keep jumping over you your recognized for the summer summary thank you mister chair I feel fluently to page fourteen of your manuals we'll look at the division of correction department approach appropriations summary there. So far right call him again the division totals out of four hundred and four million one hundred and eighteen thousand thirty six dollars for the fiscal year twenty five recommendation they're not any significant change levels here but I would like to go over the main operating appropriation on page twenty two and that's also known as the inmate care and custody appropriation. As mostly a great appropriation with a little bit a special revenue in cash as well and the total there's three hundred forty four million seven hundred sixty eight thousand five hundred nine dollars and being that there are no change levels in that appropriation or any others i'd be happy to answer any questions anybody might have about specifics. We're getting questions with common. Department go everything they had. No sir we're here if you have questions and need a motion exact wreck have motion in a second roll down. And give all your question no sir we're removed emotion of perfect for me okay. Have a motion in a second hour in favor of they are in your post. Miss common all right so moving on to the division of community correction which is on page thirty seven the remainders the total for this department is one hundred thirty seven million seven hundred ninety six thousand two hundred twenty two dollars again i'll touch on the main operations appropriation which is page forty three and the total there is a hundred nineteen million two hundred seventy three thousand seven hundred six dollars. Mister chairman same thing as the last division not really any significant changes within this preparation or the other ones in the division so happy to answer the questions again any questions which coleman department you go there you will say the emotion executive of motion in a second you need discussion I hold in favour in your post which comma all right moving on the post prison transfer board that's page forty eightieth manuals so the only thing different here is that used to be called the probort net changes pass session so the posters and transfer board operating appropriations totals out two million four hundred fifty thousand four hundred seventy five dollars there are no significant change levels in this appropriationing or so open for questions in equation mr common department all good you need emotion executive wreck we have one and a second in a discussion i'll have overseas in opposed. Which comma all right now on the page fifty one for the cynicing commission much of the same here not need significant change levels but the total for a fiscal year twenty five recommendation is four hundred ninety seven thousand four hundred ninety five dollars have you answer any questions about that one to get a question from mr common good motion executive wreck have emotion and a second any discussion i'll be with they are in your post. Which comma. The. Mr chair that's all I got thirty that that does this we're going to start to more morning at nine am with and the public school fine appreciate it I don't have a gavel in here yeah we're done.