ALC-Review

The. All right members welcome to review subcommittee any comments from senator flippo you're good to go around first up with methods of finance miscathy europe thank you chair we're going to start in your packet under b with methods of finance the first age is the letter from dfa sending over the methods of finance for today's agenda on the second page is the chart arkansas state university johnsberra has the wind gate art in innovation it's a new art and innovation facility for their art in design as well as engineering and computer sciences that asu it is twenty five million two hundred nineteen thousand eight hundred and eighty six dollars they note that they have the majority private gifts and university reserves to cover this will be also seeing an alternative delivery method construction project for this over on c two number two is arkansas tech how for new agriculture education building this is a metal building to house their welding equipment tool story storage other equipment to support an agricultural driven laboratory environment five hundred thousand dollars they note that they have facilities repair and renovation reserves to cover that project cast the tight community college for the medical virtual lab renovation this is where project for decline national ashan in locksburg campuses for all their medical programs and its for electrical and plumbing upgrades as well as updating the lay out of these facilities four hundred and eighty eight thousand dollars they have an eda federal grant as well as an adc block grade to cover this project you a fayette bill number four through seven are all their java order contracting contract amendments are in my left amendments and number eight also for a ua fayette volunteers the arkansas union fed out the function and visibility of spaces for a number of student focus us. Suggest a better serve the existing space six million seven hundred thousand dollars they have university reserves to cover that and you a monaster for parking lot improvements for repairs for the parking lot for the memorial classroom building in university plaza three hundred twenty two thousand seventy three dollars and eighty cents and you a month so knows that they have university reserves for that project those are all the methods of finance on today's agenda our members you've heard a description of the items in the questions representative cabin all you're recognized thank you mister chair I have a question for that you have a fail. Good afternoon we were just introduced yourself for the record then we can get on with the question as good afternoon rebecca haley university of arkansas bill government relations. I'm scott totally associated by chancer for facilities with their campaign represent capital you recognize thank you mister chair i'm gonna really kind of lump all of your request in the wine the reason i'm going to do that is it's almost ninety million dollars and total projects and you say that it's going to be a hundred percent university reserves how much money you got in reserve. The. I don't have that number for you today but I can i'll be happy to get that for you okay why you're getting that if you could also tell me what makes up that reserve where that reserve comes from is it coming from tuition is it coming from gifting is it fair is it state GR I mean if you can can't let me know where that reserve is coming from. I'd appreciate if I could have that bar friday appreciate it absolutely right thank you you would get just get that information to staff when get it to all the members of the committee. Members any other questions thank you guys for coming down any other questions for a methods of finance. We're at seeing none without objection these article will be considered reviewed moving on to item sea catherine mr chairman we have two alternative delivery construction projects these are the construction projects over five million dollars the first one under c one is for arkansas state police this is for canoe construction of a state police berks at camp robertson training for solid the project is to build a new barrick's facility or housing troops goal recruits and driving track trainees little house up to two hundred beds it'll also contain a female storm shelter that'll double as an exercise facility cafeteria classrooms in offices they note that they have appropriate arpa funds and arkansas state police and police foundation donation to cover this the estimated construction cost is going to be seventeen million one hundred thousand dollars they received five proposals that they review they interviewed all five contractors selected kinko the majority of the work will be bid of the design proves should all will be with all evans and rasco architects and they note the completion is somewhere around december twenty sixth the second project is for you as you systems were the wingate art and innovation this goes with the method of finance that I showed you earlier it's for the new art and innovation facility it is so they receive four proposals interviewed awful selected clark contractors whittle evans rasco for architects their projects is twenty five million two hundred nineteen thousand eight hundred eighty six and again they have private gifts and university reserves for this project those who have the two alternative delivery construction projects on today's agenda our members any questions on these two items. Senator patent you recognized. Thank you message. On the who can answer this but. I guess my question is. Assume this was put out for bid how many bids were taken because this is eighty five thousand dollars for bid. I which item are you talking about c one. All right they're saying. The. They received five proposals and interviewed all five of those the agency could probably provide you more specific information. On the beard or their proposals so it was not a sole source no sir okay thank you thank you mister chair thank you senator members any other questions. The. Are it seeing none without objection to these aren't will stand reviewed texts to item d item d these are our grants we have discretionary grants from two agencies today the first is the health department the first one d one grant number one is a grant for improving the critical goal the financial improvements for critical access hospitals and provider based rule health clinics these are the ones that are labeled harassed in mid risk. Number two three four are going to be far free and confidential crisis counseling intervention services it's for the toll free suicide and crisis lifeline the three contracts that provide that service as well as back up for that those are all the ones for the health department the next group of grants on beginning on page three are going to be for the human services the first one is an amendment to an existing grant that they have for initiatives to recruit and retain resource parents and to provide tangible supports to children and families impacted by foster care in arkansas number two in three or grants for emergency solutions grant program these are grants for services for homeless and help remit homelessness number four is the grant that they do for statewide results oriented management cannibility trainings to the arkansas community action network number five is a grant for enabling technology pilot program number six is worth the wellness recovery action plans for reentry in addictions and those are all the grants on today's agenda our members you've heard that discussion representative cabinet you recognized thank you mister chair actually have a question for DHS on item number five. You would just please introduce yourself for the record and being it on the representative capitalist question. Her mitray asked cheapest out more listed weather ten am director of medicaid specialty populations thank you after coming my question just this six million dollars is it part of the thirty million dollars that or is this in additional to it. Representative cabin on this is the other arp the one that came straight to medicaid that's under that ninety eight seventeen section so this is has that going to do with the the most reset thirty million dollars but they'll piggy back off each other is that what the goal with this contract is that we actually use it with the other that we're developing that system out with yes my amp i'm actually editing a document cause we're trying to put something out to show you guys and are state colders how this weeks together alright thank you thank you. Thank you represent a counter members any other questions for. Seeing number consider these two autumns reviewed members we need to recognize representative board law for an issue with the message of finance ribs and board lawyer recognizing thank you under method of finance i'd like to make a motion to hold number nine there's some clarification issues that need to be worked out of being told by the agency in the bureau we can have those worked out friday so hopefully we can resubmit these in your report on product. Got it so members without objection we're going to review items b one through b eight will hold over item b nine four four o c that's great I without objection. We have that done thank you representative of order it means that takes us two items e. Cappy. Thank you mister share were in item e these are contracts on page one of item e is the letter from mr edward armstrong the director of the office of state procurement he notes that all the contracts that religious life review this month two of them presented appear on their face to been procured in compliance with arguments often procurement law and he has some notes about those two the two contracts that there is additional information on our contract for the department of the military and a contract for the department of corrections and will provide more detail on those who as we get to the third net that one that he notes in the last paragraph is the university of central arkansas has a contract that is gotten administrative of accounting error that will be pointed out at the time that we get to that contract so we'll move on oh I do want to point out that on pages page two of item e is the letter to the review subcommittee from office of state procurement dealing with the military contract that is up for ratification and then on page four is the letter from two osp from the military I want to point out that on page six is the letter to the review subcommittee from the office of state procurement on the department of corrections contract it's up for ratification today and then on page eight is the letter from the department of corrections to office of state procurement and finally is the accounting error from uca that's noted and again we'll go into more detail on those as we get to. The first batch mister chairman of contracts that were going to take a look at our construction related contracts for review this is begins on page twelve the first one is a issue new poor this is for architectural services for a new health sciences facility number two is arkansas tech this is for planning and architectural services for proposed new student recreation in union center numbers three through eight are all going to be department of energy and environment division of environmental quality these are all going to be their own call architectural in engineering contracts takes its over to contract number nine these are contracts from the department of parks to her digit tourism this one is for the mall mail pinnacle trail master plan on a minute to an existing contract number ten is a contract amendment for engineering and continuation of projects that are listed there number eleven is an amendment to the existing contract they have for a fishing peer replacement located like darknel state part as for engineering services number twelve is professional engineering design services or outdoor recreation improvements set mississippi river amount magazine and petty jane stay parks number thirteen is on call engineering services and they also note that they are working at projects in the amendment at mountain ebo and other locations that they've noted number fourteen is contract for design services for harb state park crowl is ridge and daisy state part number fifteen is contract they they have for the water treatment plant improvements at queen will mean a state part number sixteen is their amendment for architectural services at like wash tall degree and large implantation agriculture music. And finally for state parks number seventeen is an amendment for architectural services for projects located historic washington prayer grow battlefield well mainly. Number eighteen is the department of the military and this is the contract amendment that they have for a new construction of a eight thousand square foot barks facility number nineteen this is department of transformation and shared service is building authority this is an amendment to an existing contract that they have for. Yeah. Engineering services and i'm sorry this project is for the main chillers at the main street mall for the chillers and for the renovation of the fifteen oh nine building. Excuse me number twenty ubank. This is architectural services for yoke hall number twenty one you have a union architects are union interior fed out project number twenty two is the contract that they have for the architecture fees for mullins library. Number twenty three called contract for architectural services. Oh as well as number twenty four. And number twenty five for you eva is carbad fabrication low. Yeah. You're sure that's it. That I remember you've heard a discussion of these items representative cabin all you're recognized thank you mr chair I actually have a request for the department of energy and environmental division. We get someone for that department appear. Yeah. Yeah. The. You would just introduce yourself for the record when you get seated will get ready for the questions lauren ballard cheaper staff. Andrea happens associate energy administrator representative cabin are you recommended thank you you've got several contracts here there beat you say professional engineering design or environmental design that doesn't really tell us a whole lot so what I would like is to I want to know what projects is are in some details on these because you have so many of them it looks like you're doing the same project with multiple vendors so if you could please get us the information by friday on these contracts so that will have the information so we can make informed decision about them. We can absolutely do that okay and mister chair if we could ask all state agencies to start providing that information rather than just a one liner that information that gives us so we can make a better decision if we can make that request. The. Thank you for california thank you if you would get that information to staff will get it passed out to the members. Thank you chairman thank you thanks members any other questions on these items. Maxing number that objects in these arms or stand reviewed that takes us to e three given this cat chance to get your breath here. All right good luck okay we're going to try intergovernmental contracts these are on page twenty one. Okay we're looking fires dead department of commerce rehab services for I can assisted technology coach digital health. Yeah. I think i'm the i'm so sorry okay where are we ready now we're we're back to number one I can't assist if technology digital health coordinator number two DHS is is for sexual rehabilitative services number three this is a contract for dhs to provide family treatment services and number four on the next page. Excuse me. Ears. The. Dhs sport medicaid evidence based on review project number five DHS is to continue the operation of the boys and control drug information center number six is for dhs and this is the contract for june detention centers programming and services. And number seven is DHS and this is a contract to continue to coordinate outpatient sex offender treatment and case work for referred division of youth services juveniles those are the intergovernmental contracts all right thank you members any questions on these items. I'm seeing none without objects in these items will stand review that takes us to e four out of state contracts thank you mister chairman these are the out of state contracts they start on page twenty four the first one is the arkansas public service commission this is for legal services to the commission for a regulatory matters number two is a yes you just have our university this is for their financial advisory services number three arkansas tech this is a contract a new contract that they have for providing marketing and advertising services number four arkansas tech. Contract for consulting services for possible university property development use and planning number five arkansas tech for providing marketing and advertising services focused on student recruitment and brand awareness number six is the contract for the department of commerce this is the services this is further armed security guard services number seven department of commerce work for services this is a contract for the innovative policy viab this is a contract that's done as a special procurement it's an original contract in your green packet of letters on pages one three five are the letters that explain the special procurement request and authorization this is for the unemployment insurance certification of to integrate and modernize the ui climate experience for saintless integration with existing platforms and legally legacy systems therefore this vendor alliance with the state's best interests do to their expertise ability to send mostly integrate with current platforms low cost and short implement implementation time in order to justify the special procurement again that is for contract number seven contract number eight on page. On the next page pay twenty seven is department commerce state insurance this is for actual warehouse services contract number nine is a contract for the department of corrections this is one that we're going to skip over at this time and take up as a separate item at the end of this part of a contracts number ten is the department of education arkansas school for the blind. This is for physical occupation on speech therapy to state of for students at the school for the blind number eleven is the department of health this is a contract to establish for additional technical support to manage electronic case reporting and electronic rab lab reporting number twelve also for the department of health this is for the removal and disposal of hazardous waste. Number thirteen dhs this is for patient food nutrition provisions for the state hospital. Number fourteen is a contract for dhs for drug screen confirmations and drug challenges number fifteen dhs ah this is an amendment for continuing adoption summaries number sixteen this is a contract for DHS for their ebts services system as a contract amendment that takes us over to page thirty one contract number seventeen for DHS is for staffing for the medicaid dental vision units a number eighteen is a contract for DHS for decision support and management administrative reporting that's the ds in they are system services number nineteen this is the contract DHS u services has to or their residential facilities for the five facilities it's the agreement that they have for that in a minute for that and number twenty is department of public safety division of arkansas state police this is for the medicare part d and retari subsidiary subsidy services number twenty one is the department of military this is a contract with davy resource group this is one of the contracts that mister armstrong pointed out in his letter that needed ratification at one point out to you that in the letter from the office of state procurement on page two of this packet and from the military on page four they note that the contract was be it out but was within correct specifications and it was for updating their electrical grid and GIS modeling system for camp robinson are the vendor was selected are based on the respects that they provided. But the work was more than they had specified and the vendor went ahead and did the work the. Ripped in war like recognition. The contract that these routification when we have to take the ratification up before we take the actual contract in a batch. The. The ideas to review the ones that are not having questions are not being ratified will do the ones in you'd be ratified at the end when we substitute the other contract if I heard miscathy correctly she refers to military contract with the letter for ratification. And my point is we can't take the contract open to we take the ratification from a believe that's the way the laws written. Go give me the second. Revenue thank you for that we're going to skip the military contract at this time do at the very end along with the department of corrections. Sorry about that number twenty two is you have a this is for immediate and execution and maintenance of marketing campaign for global campus number twenty three this is on page thirty three is UA this is for their education transformation ah services for the cloud center it's a specific project. Number twenty four systems office this is for actually all consulting for their post employment benefits program you AL r has a contract there for regional prevention provider will have more of these over and in state number twenty six for u l or is a self source contract this one is in your green packet on letters on pages six and seven it notes that you allowed being awarded a five million dollars in federal appropriate funding to the department of energy to create arkansas first cbe program in what will be the nations first cyber informed engineering program the sponsor and federally prove budget for this project stipulates cbn as the only organization in you that as it is fully qualified to partner with UALR for the justification for that cell source those are the contracts it will be reviewing at this time that are in the outer state contracts. Representative cabinet you recognize thank you mister chair and miss canthy might be able to answer this question is on actually the arkansas public service commission we've got two amendments we had amendment number two and then it was for six thirty of twenty five now we got a minute number three which is also for six thirty twenty five so are we increasing this by two million dollars. Yes members are two separate amendments. And they both happened to extend the date to the same day so there's no additional date extension but yes amendment two was for a million dollars in today we're seeing another amendment to three that is four million dollar winded we are probably member two. I would have to go back and look to see the date of when that was american could I have the commission to come down they might have some details. Sure you get someone down here for that we appreciate it. The widges introduced yourself for the record when you get seated. Do any hope for a chief of staff right reps in the capital europe thank you i'm over here thank you we'd got two amendments but for a million dollars and these two expand the scope basically I guess you're needing more attorney fees that yes the the nature of the contract is specifically for our for outside council we have in house for account while we have we do have in house for council we have want attorney who is fully dedicated to to firk matters in house but in the last calendar year our. Fork costs exceeded what they normally do and so that let us to use more outside council then in previous years. Okay so when we did the member number one damn immemite number two do you know when that was I cannot actually speak to that I assume this position after we did that but I can get you that confirmation that's fine so what's cause the increase in needing outside council we had a number of. Cases a number of fork dockets which. All had a lot of activity last year some of. Which were a lot of heavy settlement talks and things like that. So that's II can get with you afterwards if you'd like more details. Yes I just would like understand why we're had to do to a minute to use two million dollars for outside council with and it's probably within a short period of time so that's why I would like to know thank you. And I think you've come down appreciate that members gives just a sick. I members any other questions on these items. I actually none without objection we will consider the item to viewed with the exception of item nine which is department of corrections and item twenty one which is the department of military the rest of the items will be considered reviewed miss cathe's going to go back and give you more than in depth discussion or explanation on the department of the military. The. And we're looking at the contract on page thirty three this is the department of the military. And. On this particular contract. What you have in front of you is you have a contract that was done as a competitive beard and what they note is that they bid this contract with incorrect in a specifications. This has to do with their electrical grid and gis modeling for for camp robinson. The vendor that was selected was the lowest bidder. And when they realize the work was more than what they had bid for they went ahead and did the work the seventy two thousand five ninety nine was the original bid. The additional work is shown as an amendment one for fifty four thousand two oh six making it a total of one twenty six eight oh five oh seven today that the is being asked to be ratified in order for the agency to be able to pay. All right can't you thank you for that explosion members any questions on the military department. Seeing nine and without objection this item will be reviewed that takes us to department of corrections senator flipo you're recognized thank you mister chairman members for make this motion I just want to give a brief back background a y so the this contract was changing the portal a few days ago because there was a material change to the contract would you need to motion to spend the role so with that I moved to suspend the rules to consider the new contract documents we received a day related to the board of corrections outside console contract. I remember you heard a motion. And and then we have some handles from staff I believe as well as chair thank you. Reports interview would you explain your motion one more time to be close so there were some there were some changes to this contract made in the portal I believe last week and so because of changes of that we do need to suspend the rules because there's a new contract that when you're going to hand out to members so just to be within the little law and are the the rules of this committee I am going to make a motion that we do suspend the rules to consider the new contract documents we receive today related to the border corrections outside council contract won't be what you have a motion way per second the second oldest in favor of significant saying I opposed are the eyes having the rules are suspended. And then senator gilmore you recognize well I had a discussion on their motion which i'm i'm fine i'm glad we went ahead and and suspended the rules to bring that up I was just going to ask what was the reason for the amendment I guess it are adding the these new documents to the portal may be the center was going to answer those that question i'm not sure. Thanks everyone gilmore I think their season jad brown to day wallace and some of the board meters here so I think you know appropriate time the chair will probably call them at the table and the probably enter that better than I can and that's fine and and again it was more for discussion before the motion but yeah that's why I apologize I jumped again a little too quick that reps in the cabinet you recognized. Yes my questions I have some questions for the commission so I look at someone up from the department of corrections or the border corrections or both. At german if you wouldn't introduce yourself for the record will get to the question. Dubs bars member board a correction many magnet member of the more corrections wait hard to for staff chairman and cheap financial officer department correct thank you and senator gilmore leave catherine can give you a little information as to why the contract was changed if you'd like that at this time. Thank you thank you signature just to clarify things the contract that you see it on the agenda on page twenty seven notes that this was done as an few for two hundred thousand dollars in a meeting earlier today it was noted by the office of state procurements something about an emergency example by law contract at two hundred seven thousand dollars so after further looking at it we determined that a different contract had been added to the portal that the bureau was not made aware of and so that is what was pulled and it's being made available to you all today so we're substituting or providing you all with this this. Contract information that was provided to us after the meet. Aren't senior to go more you recognize thank you and just follow up precares clarification so as I understand this this contract is to replace what I think have already been previously submitted to procurement. Yes thank you. At representative cavenaugh you recognize for a question thank you mister chair my questions actually going to be for the board so I have several questions actually. The one question it is how do you go back and ask for RFQ when you've already entered into a contract. Groups in the capital of me so that question when we put this contract in the portal it would not let us submit the four contract into the portal without selecting an or few rsp the rf the reason we put that on the contract is because that was the method that should have been used and that was the only way we could get it in the portal for you guys to review the way hey do not already sign a contract. The. Well represented that's the reason we're coming to to see gratification is to go back and ratify this contract back to december eighth when the board got into a contract with the council. Okay that's only that's gonna be very nastly into my other questions. Actually procurement law actually states that to procure services and establish the payment do under the contract will need the meat or exceed seventy five thousand dollars it is required generally to solicit competitive sealed beards or can spit competitive sealed proposals did that happen in this case. No man I do not okay my next question is when a state agency or department needs the services of an attorney the process begins with the agency notifying the attorney general who is balaw the attorney for all state agencies did that happen. And then. If in the opinion of the attorney general it is necessary to employ special council to the prosecutor lawsuit on behalf of the state or defeat a suit broad against the state agency where the approval of the governor the special council can be employed but compensate it is fixed by the court with the written approval of the governor in the attorney general did that happen no moment did not cape when i'll hang on just for second mister mags I didn't hear your response to the previous question. Budgeted the previous question did not happen we. The border corrections felt like. That there was an impossibility to get a unbiased. Again I just asked yes or no my question is if a state agency needs a service i'm an attorney and the attorney general fails to render the service when request in their writing then upon the establishment of the fact that governor may a point council to look after the matter authorized the agency to employ council did that happen no ma'am okay. So our procurement while they response to follow you did not follow that into this contract you entered into a contract with someone you ask us now to ratify it and you entered in a new contract at the last hour. I feel like that there's a lot of issues from time to turn or agencies didn't bother for curve at all exactly and we did not feel a follow procurement lol exactly to we were aware of it. But no man we we did not follow procurement law. The. Last year that was filed the judge ruled that we were entitled. Two to representation and the. Turn your reference could not represent because appears but. So yes when we feel like that there was a. A reason to go and research. Or fall or procurement law. The board asked mr brown are a chief finance services to contact mr armstrong and see what we need to do to continue to follow the curement. But she did not do it through the sale process that you're required to procure my law no money thank you for them calling our senator hester you recognize. Thank you mister magnus you're the attorney general uh is accountable every time there's election of the people of arkansas legislatures accountable to the people of arkansas were held accountable through the balance of powers the justiciary in the executive branch executives held accountable election day in the people of arkansas you just hear his held account on election day who are you accountable to and how are you held accountable more accountable to this legislature and the people of arkansas. And the governor of state of arkansas. So we don't feel like we're accountable necessarily too although ages offers there are supposed to be an unbiased. Um. Part agency that would represent it and do represent us in other cases. I don't think there's. Other than the procurement law there's no question that we could not get a unbiased decision. From the age office you have to be where we were at when for example when the board decided to terminate mr prefer. Then misrefer refused. To leave work. And refuse to follow our directions to give us more time. Two it wouldn't just about so I think the question was how. You just said that your account order the legislature how do we hold you accountable. Your your homeless accountable here today your home is accountable that we made an error. And a procurement law and aren't i've been here before I watched death before it's not. Unusual for an agency too. To make a mistake to in the procurement so the board of corrections is is accountable and responsible for the laws of this legislature passes in honoring them. If they're not on constitutional yes if they're not on constitutional yes in that. Um. There tore in the separation of powers become. Important to all of us say this is the state of arkansas. That we have the opportunity to take that to harrassori who might say. Yeah so thank you mister brown well I ask you one more question. Is is the border you guess precurement specialist you do this routinely in and there's according to you there's really there's no one above you don't you are answered anybody so who. Are you procured specials were not peculiar and a specialist we do for you before you took on a contract it's going to run a million dollars a year for legal services which is you know five times the cost of any lawyer that the state of arkansas hires did you consult anyone without it spend approximately a million dollars a year or that's what you're on pace to spend. Yep no sir we didn't years ago and I don't have years ago the board was in a similar situation and we hard outside council it's not the first time we've hired outside council. I don't remember as going through the procurement law of their town to hard that outside council but we need recently we've had a nice I recently about two years ago we did have to hour outside council i'm sure the attorney general office was involved in it caused the um the person who services was in california well it's not often that a. Unelected unaccountable board member suits the people of arkansas with their own money but mister brown can you tell me where you can sort it on how to on the procurement process no sir I was not in so it was just dumped in your laptops had figured out a way to pay this well the board wanted to executive session in one of their board meetings and they came out in my emotional hire council and that's that's how the process thank you don't finish for now and I think you senator senator gilmore you're recognized they give us chair and I just want to pick up right where since you're left off mister brown you mention going into executive session with the board and they basically said pay this right where you buy chance called into the executive session and was their discussion about the payment of this. No sinner I was not called into that executive session okay did you have any discussions with the board outside of normal process and a board meeting or in an executive session regarding this. I was calling to an executive session in a later board meeting in that discussion was. Based on which outside legal council I had been discussing this issue with an at which you council mister weight okay so you you were called in exact says the executive session to discuss this correct go so did you did you advise the board. That the process have had illegally procured this. The. The process moved had a pretty quick pace once I realized that. We've violated procurement law I brought that the chairman bank and says attention that I also gave him recommendations on how to fix. Uh the situation that ran which is what over before you today. And what was your advice. My advice was to bring this before this body to ratify the contract in and do it correctly okay. Mister magnus if I made director to the other board number mister buyers may direct the next couple of questions if I may have some lantern with chair thank you. Do you believe that contracts for for these types of services should go through the normal procurement process. The. So you have to turn off one of those my externators on. So you're more I have to say that i'm not an expert on these i'm the older school teacher so i'm i'm not i'm not expert understood it's a complicated process to be sure. And what was your restaurant to question please. Were you aware of the of a process to procure a contract such as this for legal services not in this case no okay so you want to wear mister magness were you but was not as I said we had. Ah how hard outside cancel many years ago and only remember what it was for then we did not go through the big courier. Processed that I can remember deep do you member making any sort of statement in a in a board meeting and I understand that you know we've all slip since then clearly would you member making some sort of statement in a board meaning that said to the effect of we just didn't have time to go through that process. Regarding this particular procurement. And I think i'll start off wall go in fact that if I had a known there was a process there I would been glad it went through it because I don't. I want to follow the became at laura but at the term I didn't know about it and yes we didn't feel like we had. We we needed to act quickly lack of uh we'll see a misreview was. Determined to continue to work what after the board voted determination so if if I said that it was no disrespect to this body or to anyone other than yes we did feel like time with the essence that we needed some legal representation so to that the end and that's I think this has been my final question for the time and i'm understanding of you know there's other members that have questions I want to be fair in that regard and I appreciate you gentlemen being here to answer questions. So to that into your point of needing council when was the first time do you recall the board or anyone with b o c or or DOC for that matter so the board corrections are department corrections reaching out to the attorney a question here for council in potentially representing the board in these matters. Sir I couldn't tell you that exact date or when we determine we might need legal representation there was several conversations throughout the. More than a year with mister prefer that he was. Not serving the the more to correction switches or concerns and I don't I just would point out that mister perferie is not on question here today I understand you asked me when we decided I understand and it could have been in any kind of of the latter conversations about our secretary then that should be came up and where did those conversations take place. It would have been in a board meeting our executive. Okay so you haven't those discussions in executive session with with the lawyer question. Did we have the decision about horrendous lawyer and exactly did you have those discussions about mr perfectly in executive session with the lawyer at question yes. Okay now the lawyer went there that's a minute or you asked me that we did we have a conversation about did you have come about your secretary. And at same time a possibly hard attorney. And or both yes yes. Okay that answers the question. The. An accident a go more thank you representative or law you recognized. Thank you mister hope I get this out. I haven't trouble my voice this week. Miss brown you said you had to put the cn is an irp or an hour of you to get it some married. When you do that you're saying that you could plead it an of q get completed. The. No certain rs was not completed. We tried to type in na in that category on the document but the portal would not accept the document. Did you. Did you try to get assistance from procurement. I believe we reached out to state procurement yes are. What was what was there buyers well state procurement they have to have something in the portal to send over the bureau so the bureau can pull it off for you guys to review. My problem with this is when it's presented to legislature it looks like you did q which would have been following procurement law he didn't follow precaution didn't get an article but you submitted it to us and it says on a paper right here or if you. That's that's an issue to me I understand that you're here for ratification that fix it. The. Mister i'll get back in the queue but i'm really worried about that. Thank you representative. I see here we have a seat nineties senator stone. You recognize yes mr magna suggests going to ask a question for clarification did I understand young understand you to say that you win into executive station to discuss how an outside council. That wasn't the reason for the session now that the region was talked to continually about the unresponsiveness in the work performance of the secretary where you if you win an airport to discuss the secretary we end up discussions ended while you break your executive session to come back out and discuss the car the discussed a harran of an outside contractor in in in in in your regular session or are you are you regret meeting why do you hold that continued head of conversations pound closed doors was asked a question if an attorney had ever been mentioned during exactly session and the uh the remark was made we made it may need eventually hard attorney that's all it was saying in the executive session I answered a question for mr gilmore to get more while going truthfully a remark was made about an attorney but no discussion about hoodahar window not thank you. Thank you senator senator dismantle recognized yet nothing at least in really what I was going to ask how how did that come about so there is no request for appropriate no for a proposal nowhere or few and in how did the contract with this current attorney. Come about I mean someone reached out to someone that he slitched his job because of reading the paper was her friend of somebody that's on the board and they just knew. Noon because of the relationship like but how where did where did he come from how did how did the firm come about because. Or is there somewhere in the war minutes you could point to the that was decided in someone can explain. There had to be a rational to why this particular individual yes more member mister early watson is a contract in. Employment attorney. And he saw one that on his own talk. Two thousand firm here talk to a couple of because of that one remark and a more me and then he came back with a recommendation. Because of the remark yell ask him the earned to essentially find an attorney in the executive in that second decision I may have assumed as a german to explore some options okay but they have never talked at the in the executive session of as my memory correct may have another more member that was in executive you'd be welcome to ask him but never know exactly session did we talk about umissed water finding attorney or which attorney everything like that just that we are one of the end of the conversations about secretary oh firm corrections that we made at some point need to get attorney we had had mister attorney are compliance attorney in at one point at a moored meeting and executive session again talking to him about uhm. Were the performance of mr the secretary so but i'm beginning matter back to just on this particular attorney in in how his firm came about mr watson based on some comments may have been over the phone may have been an executive session but for some reason felt as though I would probably be a good idea if we you know try to find an attorney so he had tracked down amongst three attorneys and discussed here you're looking that that there was conversations. Oh art between myself and mister watching and they wasn't missed watching somewhat took it on his own to start trying to find some legal representation for the board. So he took it upon himself to find legal representation. And then how to jaw approve this particular attorney just based on his own recommendation recommendation only no other research no other. You know resumes are history or whatever it may be just mr watson brought you to recommendation you said that's the one we're going to do it that's correct okay thank you. Thank you senator and I representative baiting you recognized. Just to a couple of westerns one review in the documents that were submitted looking at the dates and tracking these are. Primarily I see an engagement letter that were signed by mister buyer's and chairman magnets on december twenty third of twenty three. Which actually. Yeah I guess we all look like that that that's actually a contract that you entered to into at that time we'll december twenty third who did the verified complaint and bought the complaint back on december fourteenth was it the same attorney that file that you've signed an engagement letter with on the twenty third as it was. Okay but my second question is how long have you been in your position and and a member of the board of corrections twenty five years of it in that twenty five years who's advised the old procurement in in the way the the department in in that agency operates. Well in the past before. Transformation each agency had its own. Procurement or. And financial person so we look towards those people to keep us out of the ditches per. And. Then it stopped at its anything wrong with the transformation and I haven't one financial also but we have went. Through a change in that procurement missed brown and not what night missed round which you taken over is cheap financial. About six percent months ago and six seven we had had some changes in that position. So. Would answer the question we always required on the financial. People to keep us out of the ditches this was just a. Very much difference situation differ. With mr brian missed brown specifically what did you advise chairman magness and board are involving this contract because it looks like the discussion started on december eighth and a board made n quickly with from december eighth to an attorney doing work party on the fourteenth without any written agreement or an engagement letter and then an engagement lever letter coming on the twenty third followed by here you know the fourth of january and in a preliminary juxtan on the nineteenth up till I guess three six when certainly we're going to put everything in a proper contract submit that back and tried mail to file the procurement rules of the stay and present that to the committee today so what did you specifically in struck your board in the folks that that you are serving there in your position regarding this contract whatever is it I had many conversations with many people to try to figure out i'm only concerned about the board okay. To figure out if we did violate procurement lol when I realized in my opinion I thought we volunteer procurement law at all chairman is in the board we have three options maybe two i've got my mimo one option is to let the council seek his payment through the claims commission or we can come and ratify this contract and try to fix the situation where in or we don't pay him at all and and their response back to that which option they prefer and magna serves getting paid and do it correctly. Which brings us before you today thank you. Thank you representative of a mister ran have a question on the original I guess contract that we saw. You had it listed as an RFQ and I think you mentioned a minute ago that was the only choice you had to select or something of that nature is that correct yes sir that was just the internet of the portal for you guys for missionary to pull the offer and put on your agenda you can't ratify just a letter by itself. So when I was a letter I had to have something that a company there. But the new one says he emergency slash exempt from law. If i'm reading this correctly. And I believe that I am what does that mean emergency exempt from law. But as far as they could procurement method. Now that I don't know and now we put it or ask you on it and it's all I know. So you mentioned order that are ecularly wasn't what you wanted to select you wanted to select in a that's correct because we are you saying there's no there was no good choice for you as far as this contract is concerned those are not based on the situation that we were in. Because we didn't go through a process but we had to select their process that was given to this even though all of them were incorrect that you selected the process after you'd already entered the contract. The. Well that process had to be selected when we entered it. The. But you don't know what this means emergency exempt from law on this one the. The. The. Can anybody else can anybody tell me what that means emergency exempt from law. No. It's dramatic would introduce yourself just for the record. I made wood arms strong state procurement director in my apologies I was getting stereo scarpet questions back there from the department at the same time that your question came across would you mind repeating the question for me. My question is i'm just trying to follow what mister brown said he looked for. I'm here right in front of you rfcue but he wanted to select na which means. Not applicable I guess and now we have the substitute contract this is emergency exempt from law as the excuse me the procurement method i'm just trying to understand where that is that as selection that you can make on the software so the portal has certain predetermined options we try to limit them to the options that are recognized under the law is if it's a free form text field people could write whatever in there and we would get all kinds of methods of procurement as people would write whatever and so I think would occur it is that they were selecting a method in somebody and putting into the portal at the department. Selected rfew because that is one of the viable options in a is not one of the options you can select from the menu and then exempt by law is an option but it's not typical we've never had an exhibit that i'm aware of that's been presented for review and if you look at the item which I only recently saw today and wanted to make sure it was brought terribly his attention because it is materially different from the first document that was entered. In that is and that's why too I don't have a in the letter to this committee i'd talk about the different contracts this contractor this item i'll say didn't have a contract number signed to it could only had a letter from mr brown there was no document at that time as I referred to it as a purported contract because I hadn't seen any contract documents and then in order to populate the summary something had been submitted so we got a deadline from kathy schmit something would submitted but then apparently on the sixth. Somebody the department submitted this substitute document which was signed and it also has if you look at number two. I want to make sure everybody reads that carefully seven ever seen this before in the objective scopes and performance of this document it. It says essentially i'll summarise it. We are exempt from procurement law we think we're exempt and we are also going to submit this however in good faith so that we can a facilitate the payment of the contractors outstanding and perspective invoices and then they also propose a method for themselves in the future of how their bills will get paid. Later on in section five. They want us to incorporate a court order a judge patricia james. And my reference and then this document goes on to modify one of our non negotiable terms in number nine we make it really clear in our standard contract that nothing in our contract should be construed to wave or call into question sovereign immunity the sovereign immunity of the state this one has been modified to say. That nothing in this contract should be construed as waiver of the states sovereign immunity. If applicable and then later on says any claims that the contractor wishes to assert against the state in connection with this contract shall be brought in the arkansas date claims commission. If applicable well for us there's no question that the proper form for litigating contracts. Is the state claims commission this introduces a question as to whether or not that's applicable. Uh which is that's something that we would. We were tolerate if if we were entering into a contract for this statement so I wanted to those I thought were material changes and I wanted to make sure but it was aware of them have you ever seen that procurement method used before the exempt from law for criminal method well yes because there are various exemptions in the procurement law in utipically don't see them because of constitutional officer for example is exempt they don't have to submit those contracts for review and we're going back to the software to is that is that a selection that someone can make exempt from long. I don't know I suspect it is because it is in asis they can select exempt from law when they are creating an outline agreement or a p o o thank you mister arms speaker shepherd you recognize. Thank you mister chairman sinner dismank covered some of the questions that I originally had but then now with this document in front of me and some of the questions have been asked have some additional questions I guess to mrperiod armstrong in light of your last comment in this document that reported services contract it was recently provided is it minor standing that had had this been provided well in advance and the opportunity to review in advance of this meeting been provided this probably would have been rejected and would not have even made it to this point. It's hard to guess what we would have done but I definitely would have asked a question about it and it probably would have halted the process huawei and spoke to whoever was responsible for that change and I would have told them that our position is. The. There is no question as to whether or not the sovereign immunity this day is applicable we think it is. The second question I have since much of this goes back to the end of last year and we've discussed and there's been testimony about the need for outside council i'd like to know what communication went direct communication there was between the board and the attorney general's office at the outset in what steps the board took to determine whether there was irreconciliable conflict between the ages office and the board of corrections. Failure failure. Was enough for me to understand I need an unbiased representation for the board. Judge fox. In his ruling gave. The ag thirty days to make contact with myself or a board member. To try to work this out. I did not hear from their g for thirty days. During that time period so or by judge fox. Judge james are realized this is someone after the fact but in her ruling she said was a constitutional board therefore constitutional members and we had understand you seven eleven week and our outside council. We're here my coles were trying to do what we found out we needed to do something different we're here because of that what would it and actually I think the services agreement actually talks about why we're here the this this document that was recently completed and provided in in my view is somewhat alarming because it's basically states that the point of this is to facilitate payment. And I don't know that i've that i've ever seen something brought to us to say to facilitate payment it's basically. It's what what it sounds like today is whatever it takes to give the attorney paid that's what you all want to do. And I how much of how much have heads the board incurred in legal fees to this point. Speaker over three months we are of two hundred and thirty five thousand six hundred and thirty nine dollars. The. That's the total to date yes sir has anything been paid no sir and then I thought the number I thought we had seen another number with some additional fees I thought it was upward to two hundred thousand is that not where we're at now. No sir i've got the three invoices in front of me december was fifty one thousand seven hundred and six dollars january was seventy one thousand five hundred and fifty two in february where it was twelve thousand three hundred and eighty one and then the final question I have and it it goes back to something that served this being asked about is what steps were taken to two inquirer as to other law firms are attorneys and it was there any negotiation with related to the legal expenses and then along with that what was the expectation to the attorney provide an expectation of what the expenses would rhyme to represent them represent the board in this matter. First question what other firms were contacted and what discussions took place. There was no other firms. Contacted and well hold on I don't if missed watson contacted and nether firm. I don't know that. All I know is I know we contacted this firm and this was only for my head conversations with and then the follow up question was what is the expectation as to the amount of fees it will be incurred in this representation. Are you asked for the end result well I just know me as you know i'm a practicing attorney and usually my clients want to know what do I think it's going to cost to represent now few I guess if you can find a client that is willing to write a blank check that's the best counter client to have but was there any kind of expectation as to what the cost would be what the board could expect I mean this these are fine to the estate of arkansas that the board is asking for the ability to pay attorneys and so what what's the expectation here is my understanding that to take it to all way to the supreme court. It have a ruling it would be no more than two hundred thousand dollars. Thank you. Alright senator dismantle recognized my question is to circle back that sound like we just stumbled upon something that was not seen even before just a few minutes ago and that's the question of sovereign immunity in the fact that it was waived in this newest version that was uploaded and I don't understand was not in the previous version that was uploaded who advised the change to waive that in this newest contract it came forward. One of the organization of the mind. I'll have to go back and forth that out the staff that I talked to so they did not put that in there so i'm not sure where that came from it to but but that that's you couldn't have not put it in their intentionally it doesn't pre format that way when you're feeling it out so someone intentionally changed that was the attorney advising on the submission of his own proposal not to my knowledge he was not with anybody in our office I am replaced on how that could possibly be changed there's only very few people that that would benefit. That change would benefit and it is not the people of arkansas and so I mean I like i'd almost demand before we do much more to know who made that change and why. Who would be willing to put arkansas in that position I mean that that's careless and reckless soon. I would hope as board members you're going to be demanding action from ever made that called because that's that's not insignificant and and we're sitting here blindly being asked to approve a contract it was resubmitted within the last. How long and several days that would have essentially waived the rights of the state. I'm sure we combined and answered who put that in there I don't have an answer for you since I had how is that possible I have as no one know who uploaded the most recent and made changes that had to be intentionally made are a really impunfounded in the. Response. So only the only change that I know that was made. What is good the first contract that we submitted did not have signatures on the second one has signatures on it. I don't know of any other changes that were made to their document when it was entered but maybe we'll find out that it was originally submitted with the waiving of sovereignty unity and maybe we didn't catch it the first round I don't know it was not I will find out. Okay so that are the the change wasn't just. Yeah I mean at. That's a big deal and I don't think we need to understand you know understate how big of a deal that was in who ever did that. Expose a lot of risk and you are setting down here in in wanting to pursue this exposes the state of arkansas to a lot of risk I am shocked that you would withdraw it is very moment and move on that would be miadvice. Thank you senator has makes energy up next thank you miss shares for mr bagness chairman the board with account ability to legislature I appreciate you come out i'm make sure what I heard correct that at least three times we broke the law per criminal law. And I thought I heard through the test money that it was because of fear of bias of someone against you who called you fell your failure failure. And so you decided to make decisions on contracts only with the people that agree with you instead of falling the law and so my biggest question is what other contracts or decisions are being made by your board only based on the decision of with people who agree with you. I'm sorry I don't term we make decisions all of hand. But not in the case of trying to represent the board. And it's not a question whether or not. Their term. Then we would ever got a fair ruling. From as tony jail griffin. Or the government based on the fact. That they had already made their decision on how to rule our and our behavior so as the leader of that board the chairman of that board how do you build back trust with the accountability that you say you have with us today what's your plan to build back to us with us out in we trust you. I thanked my tornadoes here is a service proves that then i've always worked with this. Each going around served. And and the legislators that's been here. I bag their tail. Senator hester you recognized thank you mister magness you you mentioned earlier that when you went to executive session to talk about a secretary perfury you knew because it would be a prolonged issue with the board when you're going to an executive session to talk about something you'd prepare to do you give notice of that did you give notice that you're going into executive session and did you get notice you're going to talk about secretary per fury. We have always been told we didn't have to give a person's name that only have to go in to an exact reservation for a personnel matter which we did and you gave notice you were going into executive session absolutely do you have minutes from that executive session that you could provide this legislature as law requires we are understanding we don't take minutes of executive session inside the executive station that that is. One hundred chairman what how's that relevant to this contract I mean we're looking at secretary property and then going into the executive session but I don't understand where the that ties into the the presidentizing pretty easy they faring hire at a lawyer to do it. Up and i'm just trying to understand like in that lawyer this money is defending against four year violations repeated constant for your violations that were this contract is going to be used to defend and I would like to understand exactly what those are an arm understanding of the four year old executive session we never violated exactly session requirements or the arm benefits of an executive station. May I know I will contain that that's the case we always notified. Why we were going into the exact session for personal reasons we've never had in my twenty five years any documentation of what. Was said in a exact decision I think it always does it was against allow to take notes or to even discuss. Man what was discussed behind closed doors. We always came out follow the lol to say that we are not taking any action right now and might that is emotion I can't tear you whether ever executive station was a on the agenda. There might be very well been at we've seen a need as a board to suspend the rules like a scene here today to spend the rules and take up an item one b executive station so II keep say every exact sation was on the agenda. Thank you mr brown you mention that you were involved in an executive session I think on january thirty first can you can you tell me why you're in that executive accession what was ask of you when estimated a mimo to the board laying out there I think we've allowed to proceed in law and the recommendations to fix it. The board asked me to explain the process that I went through in which legal council I have consulted and I specifically if I had been talking to the ag's officer my answer was no I was using our internal chief council. As discussion and that's what it was about thank you. Thank you senator repented cab representative cavenaugh you're recognized thank you mister chairman i'm over here thank you I just want to make sure one question I did now ask was that you do receive state funds correct. Of course just meant we do not have our own funding source okay aren't just want to make sure could that's really what's going to determine if you're under procurement law and you do accept state money the other question I have is if you don't understand the procurement law the way we don't through transformation which was five years ago or something like that. How many other contracts have you gone around and night done through the procurement process. I agree for their question but we've err. We'll usually get advanced and council on determination of human cause they buying bring us. A rfuse or contracts and then the morning that takes it up or or proves it or not. I guess in this particular case it was just unusual and we did not follow the profit for curement all was it unusual in the fact that you didn't want to follow procurement law because it's very obvious that you know what procurement law was because you just answered it that you know what to do on the other contracts. No ma'am it's not exactly what um the case the case was horrendous attorney I had never been involved in night and contract of procurement law to hire reverse and taste for the morning. The procurement when it comes to higher and attorney says you can hire an attorney but you have to follow the procurement laws which. If you had looked at the law is pretty simple to understand so I guess i'm kind of battled something similar to sooner this man said is that. You could understand pretty current loan other things but when it comes to something this important you couldn't understand it I mean I just don't understand how that's possible when we can understand it when we want to but other times when it's a touchy situation we don't understand it no matter it's it's that. The. Or we were confronted with this issue. The the law if you would have. No now what we're add then a statue seven o two. Says we have to go through. The attorney journal and the governor took found an outside council. Once we did hard attorney did go to court we've found it be under statue seven eleven which says we do not. Have to go through the governor and the used to get represented so. And it says we can I understand it may be still that you had to have the curement law to even do it under seven eleven but we did not know there and so. I've said it before in a sade age under this situation. We made an error. And there's no question about it and that's why we're here and II just have I guess a little heart burn saying that you'll did no procurement while we in you have it at your fingertips to know procurement law thank you senator gilmore you recognize that you just chair so. I want to circle back with send his man's lot of questioning required and then I have another question to follow that. With the line of questioning time with some unity so what you're the gist of what we're doing here today you're asking us. To approve to ratify whatever the terminology is a contract that would wave sovereign community which would be in some cases violation of the constitution. And I see head shaking but that's what you're asking because that's what said in this. So we can shake our head no if we want to but that's what is being asked of us yes or no is that what you're out is that what you're asking us to do yes or no simple question. The. Add in jake where I never know you don't have one referring to you okay. The. My issue would be no thank you. Mr brown. No there is no mind to. Great so I guess in my other questions yes. When we look at this and we we hear some of the discussions. II guess my questioner I don't know miss brand this is for your and maybe I think it's really for the board was there not an email sent to mr colbert. Who works for the board does mister colbert worked for the board mister magnus mister brown mister buyers who wants to answer that question. He is a compliance attorney he's not paying necessarily a board attorney and yes I believe there was an email sent to him but it was not sent to the board. But it was it was sent to you compliance attorney it was sent to the compliance that are in you do you know what that email stated no sir. So you just agreed that there was an email yet so yes I was told that there was an email from the attorney jones office. About the process of securing outside council but i'm an animal I never saw the email okay so there wouldn't in his curiosity as to read that email is to see if he was trying to somehow comply with the the orders of the judge which by the way or on appeal to go to spring court will get that work through but there was test money saying to go that the yalt and trust the med even complying he didn't he didn't try to comply with that order but yet you just testified he did try to comply with an emailed mister colbert is that not correct he did send an email to mister speaker shepherd you recognized thank you mister chairman i'd like to go back to the sovereign immunity issue and actually. Since this issue is just come up with this with this document we were just provided and i'm not even sure that. To be quite honest i'm not sure how much the gentleman in front of us i'm not sure that this was intentional or unintentional on this point but they the question I have is to follow conserve dismay I think we need to know who asked for that change it's obviously a change to the standard terms of the services agreement and somebody asked for it and then secondly who inputted it to this because that would also help to tell us who asked for that and the reason why I say i'm not sure if anybody here intentionally are unintentionally new about this is it does not bent this that does not benefit the state of arkansas nor does it really benefit the board of corrections. Because it's not an it's not an affirmative statement that everybody agree sovereign community it's looks pretty innocuous on its face if applicable but what it appears to be setting up is the ability for the attorney. If he's night paid. To not only right now with sovereign community in place you would come through the claims commission. And get in that comes back to the legislature. But if sovereign immunity if somehow sovereign immunity didn't apply which it probably it should apply I think the court is the supreme court has been very brought in the application of sovereign immunity. But this appears to be just kind of a caveat here to say well we don't want anything in writing to say where were either side is a firmatively confirmed sovereign immunity so guess what. If the attorney doesn't get paid it would appear that he can go into court and ask for ask sue the border corrections or whoever to attempt to receive payment and what he's concerned what is and who knows that goes back to my questions while we need to know that because this that term that those provisions don't benefit the state they don't even benefit that really the board of corrections and it further illustrates to get back to the original questions about who always consulted because I would imagine there are plenty of attorneys in the state of arkansas that would have never asked for that provision that they would have understood that to deal with the state of arkansas that sovereign immunity applies and so I would like for those questions to be answer because I think that it's very important related not just to the weather that we review this contract but just in terms of going forward because again this I don't see that this has been official to anybody that sitting in this room today and so that's what I would ask who asked for it who made that change and I think that that's something that would be. Very important for us to be able to understand i'd also like to know I guess from the standpoint of was this did anybody get the department or the board review this. I mean this is this is a contract with an attorney so that attorney can't advise the board about a contract with with them set with himself right so did somebody was there where their attorneys that that the board were at the department that were engaged and reviewing this on behalf of the board. I do not believe our more complaints attorney did it are I don't know a fish to hard that was at the table while ago I don't. The. Who. Who feel the format we will find out who put that in there and get back. To the chairman flow poland will get back and moved here. Do you have there's the board or does the division or department have a chief procurement officer. Yes sir her name has been saturday would she be the one that submitted this contract that that was talking about earlier that when it said I would have to ask her on who has access to that she here yes can we have her come up and talk to us about this. Yeah. Yeah. Good afternoon if you were just introduced yourself for the record please i'm heather by officer for the part can you share any light on the question that speaker shepherd just asked I do not have access to the portal so I did not interit one of the team members from the department of corrections procurement team and pambo internet. So you have no idea who put that part some immunity in in that particular contract none of body on our staffed it because one when it was sent over it was a blank document except for very specific pieces. In so we were still trying to track that you don't know who filled any of it out I filled out most of it but night that section that's been in question and nobody knows anybody after it was sent for signatures. I say that again it was added after you sent it for signatures so it had signatures on it and then that was added. When it left my when it left our office to go for signatures none of that information was on there. Okay representative battery you're recognized. Just had a couple of things to go back circle back home for clearly and specifically clarity on the february fifth letter from a cheap financial officer chad brown. Missed brown paragraph three of your letter states there done the board believes it's a constitutional board. My question is. What does that. Mean. Also i'd have to bring or legal back up here I was looking at from the procurement sir since it's paid for it was stated fines. Well the that would lead me to think. In your latter you believe that you're example from procurement and your letter suggests that you think this is just a way that you can make payment is that what you were trying to communicate in this letter though sir it was not what I was trying to communicate in the letter is there. Even though the board under judge james order says they had the ability to hire council they still should have followed procurement lawn that they are not exhibit from state procurement that was my intent of the mimo and then just a quick follow up for chairman magness. In your testimony you stated that you didn't know about procurement law but then later in your testimony you said prior to transformation. You were I mean let us to believe you're highly informed on procurement lawn that you'll handle things in ios. My question the years what have you learned about procurement law. Through today there's our statement before before transformation and after transmission would we rely on our procurement people to make sure we handle things contraction therefore are correctly and follow the guy allowance with procurement but. Again in this case we did not and I have. Enough to say that mccarthy. Timing and what was going on we were and there is a little bit of the fact that I can't remember why we've even tried to find the case but many years ago we hard council outside council and. It. I don't recall going through the ag's office to do it but that's it that it's probably a a poor excuse because I can't remember the case we've been look forward it had my memory that's what serves me in there but. We require owner experts in procurement all and now to keep us correctly if you been to any of our more members that question there is answered from term term this meet the procurement also or we. Okay with their contract whatever so. They're the ones that keep us out of the ditch and well surely do a good job and last question mister last time you'll hear me ask a question. You also stated that that during the time period where the judge had ordered for you know communication between you and attorney attorney general griffin that you have you had no communication from griffin. My question is communication to two way street. Doing that same time period how many times did you reach out to attorney general breath and is office or to the governor's office to try to discuss and resolve some of the issues that johair. Well sure I did not the ruling was it judged far true that. Um. Let turn down griff and would reach out to myself not necessarily to anyone else not to mark over to complain to myself or more members to try to work this out. He did not make any contact with me and. There was only one day that I wouldn't have been available during that time I was. Um. I'm in. Struggle as some medical issues so i've been pretty handy by the future you know but I during that one day of surgery app and wasn't available so for twenty nine days he could have got the whole of me and he didn't in fact. Um. Not to travel arrows or now anything attorney general I mean he had time to file motion on certainly before the monday. Well judge farks asking for more time. And much deal hadn't reached out to get me an hours in lower. So if I so if i'm understanding there was no attempt from you on the board the attorney general not on my partner sir thank you sir senator repeat and you recognize. Thank you mister i'm over to your left. Oh. So. As I was on the aboard and we all ever time we had a board meeting we had an attorney in a staff attorney that was there they attended the meeting you've been on the board for twenty five years has it been your practice that you always had a staff attorney there. Our complaints attorney was there at all times they were more remember that I can more meeting that I can remember okay so the compliance attorney was there in the meeting where you decided. To enter into a contract with this other attorney. Yes i'm sure he was there do he not give you any advice as to procurement law or whether or not you had the authority dinner into that contract mr colbert testified in the trial of judge foxes and he was affirmative that we should have hard and attorney and and that was his remark whether he said that to myself or any other board member prior to that that's when he test fading court that's when I hurt. Okay what I can remember okay so looking at this contract that we've been supplied here and it shows the part about the sovereign immunity that I would join my colleagues in being very concerned about but the insection too. I mean it's sure looks to me like it this was definitely filled out by an attorney because I threw a lan in there this is by signing this document neither the board of corrections nor the contractor admit that the procurement process advanced by the department of corrections is correct or applicable and they retain and reserve all defenses relating to the applicable process. So i'm glad you'll set there today and subject it yourself to the current law and and said that you believe it is applicable but the very document that you would ask us. To ratify says that it may not be correct or applicable and that you retain the and reserve the defense is relating to whether it's applicable. Now that I mean this year don't sound like. A clerk or some somebody in the procurement office. Filled that out that sounds me like an attorney. Put that in there as i've said before the more corrections myself we'll find out who put that in that document. Well I think we've got for a good idea because the lady to your left sorry I forgot your name. She testified that that that. Sovereign immunity part was added. After it left her hands and went for signatures there's only two people that signed and that you and apped and met as that again the attorney very well may have done it after I send it. So do you have any include as to whether or not he done that. Sir I have now heard that after signature was only okay would he have it may have I forgot your name but please if you could would that attorney who is who is the contractor in this contract. Have had access to whoever on your side would have been input in this this information yes sir it meant once it left my hands and it went to him for signature he could have done it. Well i'm not talking about the part that was added now i'm told about something that's in the bodied in section too. I would say I just now found out about that part so I will look into it okay. Well I think it's ironic that you would have a compliance attorney. They couldn't advise you on complying with. Procurement law. And I would think that after twenty five years on the board you'd know the importance of asking the attorney what should we do at this point. The only reference I remember talking to mark coward was and said he felt like we need to hard outside turning case he's not. He was not easier compliance thirty is not a litigator and he wasn't a. Employment law attorney and that we needed. To hard someone so I think I heard you mention that. In the executive meeting you made the comment that we might need legal advice. Now I did not say that I said in that. Executive session it was one of the very end of the one of the exact recessions and II think that came from mister watson. Okay so somebody says you might need legal advice and you already have an attorney working for you seems like the first thing he did read it as the attorney. Who does the determined you need it a different attorney I think it mark our complainant story said we would need some body above his scales and he was not. Um. This was not in his field and he did not want to serve a net capacity. Okay thank you thank you senator urban you recognize thank you mister terr thank you for being here my question is actually for mr armstrong if you could come back to the table please and first thank you for being here and thank you for your years of service as well my question and mr armstrong is the portal and how that works i'm not a trial attorney i'm here to review contracts and understand how the contracts are submitted and how they're written and that's my job as a legislator. If you look at the way this is submitted there's more than one areas of the where it looks to me is this computer generated and then printed out and then types in sections because there are parts of it that are handstruck by hand so for example on page three under number seven it says this provision shall not be construed to a bridge any other right of termination the and it's it is with a line. That's by hands. Agency and top of it it says board of constructions I mean board of corrections and then later on in the document if you look on page five while i'm hates for what you point it out under section nine there's a line drawn by hand then if applicable is. Added it looks like a typewriter or by computer and then again page five d outstanding invoices and line for payment is seems to be added. Number fifteen if apple for are so added under number fifteen also under twelve b on page five if applicable is also added in that section. The. Um and I believe there is a hands. Correction somewhere else so my question to you is. How how are these submitted and given to us. If it's through a portal because you said up here under procurement method emergency exempt from law was something that was a drop down box so that nobody could still that in. So my question is how did this get I mean. So did somebody just. Enter this into the portal and then print it out and then change it. And then submit it to you or to the legislature so how would that work I mean how would that happen. There's two parts that I understand that question in picking up on what we heard from heather bailey apparently the document had been prepared using our standard form and then was presented to mister magness for his signatures that correct and at your time that was the only signature and then it was sent after mrperiod abdon. I didn't set it to mr. So at that point somebody would have had a paper document with our standard terms and the sir of mister magness and somebody would have had to have manipulated that document after the state representative had signed it to make these changes and then send it back to the department of corrections where miss bailey without having read those terms because we just heard from her as she was not aware of those changes she probably presumed that since he sent it off for signatures that somebody had just signed it and did not review it okay that's that's what it sounds like happening so then it got submitted perhaps they're in under her understanding that she had just gotten signatures but instead what we got put into the portal was this document which is substantially different and I was not aware of that like say until today there is another law that comes into play here that if I had been aware of at the time would have referenced also on the cover letter that is under nineteen eleven two nineteen. We have a statute in the procurement law that says that the attorney general is the attorney for the state program and director and to advise with respect to all contracts but it allows state attorneys to enter requires by rule state attorneys to review any contract where our standard terms have been altered and it requires certification by that attorney that they have reviewed the terms and find that it still stands you know so even if the there is a law that says that we require right to review if so somebody's going to alter a standard terms than our law requires review by a state attorney it can be the ag but it could also be but say a department said the changes were made outside of the portal it's what it sounds like it was made outside of the normal process and after somebody on the state side had already signed so thank you that was my first question my second question is if we are just here we are right now. If this contract does not get ratified. Then what because you're in the middle correct there's an appeal i've kind of tracked through the newspaper so then what happens what happens if this does not get ratified today I need to know that senders had a question for me well for you it could be. A question for you where they have the ability to go back submit an rf etc so if this is not reviewed and this item doesn't get the legislative review that it needs. Then I think there is a question as to whether or not they can proceed and have any expectation of payment they could try to go back and cure and do a procurement process from the beginning of maybe the attorney who feels that he's owed money at this point could try to make a claim under some legal theory at the claims commission right yet I understand that's that's the out I mean III share the same concern that was been expressed by speaker shepherd and senator does mean cause. That's that was my my main question that has to get paid and so there is a you know clearly if the claims commission is. Um not going to pay them then I guess. They don't get paid and because of the sovereignty that we have at the state. But what to the board of corrections would be if this doesn't get ratified then what do you do what what are you going to deal at what what's your plan because you are currently in the middle of an appeal but the appeal was bright. Bye. A. The attorney general is that correct. Or. What happens what happens next if this doesn't get ratified in this legislature says no to this contract then what. To my information error. But judge box is ruling to his men. Appealed. But judge james has not I don't know that correct into my understanding all I can say is if it doesn't get reviewed and approved day then we will be talking about the attorney and see if he wants to carry out. You'll be talking to okay the current attorney yes okay. And do you have other legal representation though at that point with them the ag surface have to represent you no. I don't I don't think that to ages office can go and find an appeal. And in. Supported appeal to the same pan. I mean that's one of one exchanges. Rulings was you can't. I mean. You can't the tourney general represents us. And other lawsuit of course that when we get soon by certain people then he turned around and sued earth. And you can't be sue in your own client. Per se in all this speaker shepherd I mean a. It i'm not an attorney but that was some of the remarks in the courtroom you can't you keep me sue in your own client. I don't want I mean I don't know how you would get. A vigorous. We should have said vigorous instead of biased. Vigorous the field. Based on when someone's. Make an. Comments that you're. You're not adequate enough to know II understand I understand the conflict that exist i'm just trying to look at the law and how the law then we're predecades. Because I think by a law they would still have to represent you somehow some way i'm not sure but that's that's what i'm trying to understand what our job is here today if this does not get ratified then what happens with with what you're. What you're pursuing or what you're defending as an entity. And you may not be able to answer that question I think it's just a key given answer since. It's just a fair question I think for us to know because of what action here is taken or not taken. And and I have questions about that and maybe i'll do to you and so. I think that's just trying to wrap the set up to a conclusion here because I think we've spent a lot of time on there and i'm again not litigating this i'm just trying to do my job as a legislator and understanding this contracts this contract as it's presented today I don't think there is any way it can get ratified because of the way it's the manipulated. I mean that's just the bottom line and so I think you just have to scrap this has to be scrapped and something's going to have to. Go forward because I have to I we rely on our experts and mrperiod armstrong is our expert in the law is very clear but you know that jumps out to me but all the different areas jump out to me as being incredibly problematic well i'm on speak at it turn I don't like to speak for the rest and behold as chairman of sometimes I guess I have to but i'm going to refer to what center to dismay and while I go said we should withdraw it find out some answers come back and redo it if that's acceptable this body that what we'd like to do. Speak you recognized. Speak for shepherd you recognize. Well add a hear that chairman magnus is asking a withdrawn I would like to ask a few questions and then i'd like to confirm a staff as far as the status goes if it is withdrawn. But to with regard to center urbans. I questions which that's that was what I want to ask about as well related to how this form is generated. And so this is this is created through the state procurement system is that correct is that what I just heard mr armstrong state. And ed and strong officers state procurement yes mr shepherd that is a form that is available for agencies to use at it still a manual process where they will input into these fields. These different words and then what appears to have happened here as noted by senator urban is that the if you look at the type face the fault it is different and somebody appears to have. Super imposed their own language above the terms that are prepared so is can you do that in the procurement system or do you have to generate the document and then maybe save as a pdf or type over it save as a pdf created text box or can you actually go into our system and make those changes what we typically do in the course of a procurement a solicitation of the office of state proterminates involved is we would make the changes in those provisions where they can be negotiated but there's a back and forth exchange between attorneys and then the document can be changed to reflect those terms and so it wouldn't appear as as here where somebody has written something over or handwritten anything okay so in order to the changes here that include the if applicable it looks like there is there's also the amendment process it states it adds if applicable to the even the fact of bringing an amendments back to alc so it appears this was at it after the document was generated. Yes and then I have received clarification to for mr paul forward who's been with office of state programme for many years and is familiar with the system and the clarified tea that the emergency exempt from law is not an option available on the portal menu and it was typed in a free form text field on the document that was attached to the portal entry okay so this is generated by someone at the. Department or the board as part the procurement process then the document was generated for signatures is that correct. That's my understanding okay and then it appears mr magna signed it where these changes made at the time you signed it. I would have assumed that at the time that I have asked for my sixteen did you have a big hearing yet sure assistant that that chad or some money at the agency had filled it out and then probably read it in a completely and signed it in look sharing have it and she probably wanted to go mister margaret I don't know that well and i'm in if the chair would give me just a little bit of leave. So mr brown were were these changes part of the contract as generated. Through the procurement system. Not from not from the department. Okay so what I guess i'm asking kind of for the chain of custody as to what happened there's a document that is generated by the procurement system the testimony here is that those changes were not made in the procurement system. What's the document signed first by mr magnus and then sent to the attorney or was it sent to the attorney for his signature and then sent back to the to the board. To my recollection it was sent to mr magnets first and then sent and then sent to the attorney for his signature correct is that what happened to my recollection okay and so the attorney signature is found on this agreement but based on what you're telling us there are terms here that have been changed and nobody knows who changed them. Did were there any changes discussed between the department the board and the attorney to the standard provisions i'm not trying to beat a dead horse again coming back to my statement I don't know if it's if these are intentionally included or unintentionally but it reveals I think a concern that everybody can see here with regard to a form agreement that changes were made and among leadership here no one can say yes we agree to those changes and made them on behalf of the department in the board. If I may speak what i've heard here today concerns me as aboard member I don't. You know. I'm again i'm not an attorney soda I don't understand a lot of those terms but the explanation that i've heard here today is concerning to me and I don't think that this that's the way that operate. And I really don't think that's the way the board operates. Something is something is going on. It with this committee's indulgence. What I would recommend them i'm just one board member but what I would recommend is we pull this back and we run in investigation on on exactly what happened. I don't mind reporting back to this committee what what are findings are. And then recently it. A form that is is. That everybody agrees to the this this is the phone that should be submitted this this concerns me what what what what i've heard here today. It was it and again it is concerning to me and of course we didn't have the benefit of of this well in advance that we're kind of reviewing it on the fly here but I am concerned from the standpoint of these changes that were made for which the state potentially in the board for that matter has signed it so I guess my final i've i've asked for some information are related to who made these changes who reviewed it anything that can be provided in that regard I think would be helpful for us. But just to be clear in terms of. There's a number of things there urban went through those there were a number of changes that are made to this to this standard agreement. I mean beyond what you can insert to the standard pre printed language. It just to be clear to the knowledge of the individual seated the table was any of that discussed with any attorney for that matter whether beef for the board or the attorney that was being contracted with as to these are changes that have been requested and we are affirmatively agreeing to make those changes in order to inner into this agreement. No sir. No sir mr brown with no sir. When did you all become aware of these changes to the standard language. This. Today i'm i'm not saying the the contract so at just from the discussion today. Thank mister magness where you guys have seen the contract. I don't remember the formula talking about the wording it very well can be active you know II know that he also mentioned the mean I don't remember if this is the full document and I reviewed it and missed that point or because that I didn't did not remember saying. The attorney signature I could be wrong but that's why we have to try to find out that I review it sign it or okay it will be turned and then and then it got changed later or I dismissed it well in end uh certainly appreciate that one final question with regard to the attachments and this may be for mr armstrong with regard to these attachments are any of these attachment standard attachments and have there been attachments that have been added. So there are some standard attachments and then there's some very a typical attachment says I referenced earlier there is in this. Objective scope and performance paragraph two there is a form that there there is a text book that permits people to define the objective scope and performance and there is a reference made there too basically it's a legal argument contained in a contract. And then that legal argument I think ends up getting also represented and additional information that references these attachments and paragraph five departments payment obligations it says contract you shall be reimbursed all expenses incurred in the representation a payment shall be do within ten days from receipt of an end and then also adds language saying that it's retroactive to the december twenty second engagement of the january twenty twenty four order of judge patricia james and in those are incorporated by reference so we have an attachment that's a court order. And somehow becomes incorporated into a contract. And now I point out that this is a court order that still subject to appeal so we are binding ourselves to apparently at arguably a ruling of a lower court that might get changed on a peel but is a matter of contract we are incorporating that order I think it sounds like from the test money i've heard today I could know if it came to me with your review couldn't ratify because I don't even know if there's a contract it doesn't sound like there was a meeting of the minds were in in final question that this goes to the to the department or to the board and I would ask each of the individually but I based on what you've said at this point at I don't expect that you could recall which attachments were there at the time but I would ask the board to look to determine what attachments were present at the time it was a sign or generated by the board were their additional attachments that were added to it after the fact I think that that's also because attachments that the contract apparently are are there trying to be kind of boot strapped into the contract itself and so we've asked a lot of questions about adding the word or two but the fact is that there may be pages of of purported terms to this agreement that may not have been there at the time they were signed maybe they were I don't know and I you know nobody apparently knows at this point but would like for yalt to look at that to provide information as to what was actually attached to the time signing thank taking. I members we have still a few folks in the queue so severally folks have not asked questions I don't want to keep being a dead horse so if you do have a question. Make it as to sinked as possible sending to gilmore you recognize. Thank you mister are playing to be very susan so I guess what we're trying to figure out through this line of questioning is. Who altered this document and I think will probably figure that out. I've I want to hear from the opinion of the gentleman the table board members. First of all was their board vote to executors contract. With the attorney this this contract and question in the day you have a copy I believe at the table now data is here yep no was there a vote to excuse that. Okay so what authority is given to execute that document. I would take it on my own as chairman to probably try to excuse that and ask mr round to get it filled out for put it in front of the curement law um. So the fact that the board approved. They contract with the attorney that I would do so which was a separate separate contract african contract is or but and it's a soon from that that we need to follow procurement loan continual. Fair fair enough but my point is you approved it entirely and entirely different. Agreement then this one. Today. And this one before is today did not have a board vote. To ratify to bring here now sir not to recall okay again i'll call mister bears is well to make sure he shaken his head in the negative so I will take that as an answer so that being said I mean when you find the person who altered this document. That bears your signature and mister medicard again. What what is your internet what do you intend to do as the reportedly the the head of corrections based on all the you know statements the job made that you'll are in charge of the department of corrections what do you intend to do what investigation do you tend to launch who who do you trust at this point to even get to the bottom of who after this document we will II think it's pretty obvious first call would be to mister made gaza I don't pronounce today incorrectly i'll met his argument yeah yeah to see if he changed the document if he didn't will turn one of our investigators at the border corrections to find out who. I want to make sure this legislative body understands that this may have been given to me to review and I didn't catch the stuff about the arm. The salary at the state or something like it I don't remember it having anything like that and do not remember the attorneys signature on it but that does it mean I didn't have well it in fairness to you i'm not accusing you or anyone else but I think it's very clear who altered this document well sir and he said that it could be an. Made out this way when I reviewed it. And i'm not accusing you miss would have not. Question it to large degree but calls of out mr brown was handling this part of it and I wouldn't question it to a large degree but. I didn't even I don't I didn't know that mrperiod made gaza and head even sign it or why he would say on it so I that's another thing that body city direct answer I just don't mislead this body in any way no i'm i'm and I appreciate your comments and again i'm not accusing you of having alternatives document but it has been altered and it may have been altered but not after my signature is one i'm trying to say to you it may have been filled out that way and I didn't catch the fact that the insolvent something like that I want to make sure to understand. That I was i'm an attorney number one but number two. I didn't. I thought mr brown was handling it for us to turn in to this body and to procurement I didn't know. Or I don't know that I was told or not to that the attorney had any say so or got involved. Sure. The. I'll yield to other members. Senator dismay I can just require exact I don't think this is going to be a big elaborate investigation to figure out what's happened you're going to have an email that went out from yall that's either going to have someone signature it's not going to have set someone signatures can be very very easy to come attract downtown and I think you've been unfortunately at germany so that you've been taken for a ride in the state of architects been taken for a ride by someone that decided there would a minute be like some documents before or after your signature there is no way that anyone would reasonably think that this is appropriate contract bring for this committee fortunately about him to our folks on in in procurement they were able to catch it kind of last minute presented us we were all worked taking for a ride I hope that means whoever this year's will be held accountable for the changes whether it be internal external or or whatever may happen. I just would have I do have one question I want to make sure I understand where it did any other board members review this contract before it was submitted anyone miserable even you've alluded to that mister wattons and attorney he was involved the hiring and that sort of thing. In any way review this contract before or after your signature you know not to know of sir. There that he mentioned me or that I have any emails to that extent the or texas all of this is going to be subject to for you there's nothing that's in this contract that shielded from public you know viewing or lied or whatever so all of that information all that transactions back and forth of reviews maybe there was negotiations that happened on this contract that is all going to be brought to light I mean it doesn't have a choice but to be because it's all information that's going to be and should be made available to the public so again it but we do not believe any other board members reviewed this contract before it was submitted to the portal not that I know okay and it did I apologize because I do think that you've been taken in advantage of in this situation you were trusting to someone that submitted a document that it again was not in the best interest state and I don't want you to think that we believe that you did that intentionally I just think that you've been taken adventure. Reps in a board like recognize things chair I will take a little bit allowed to is charged council for a minute. So. And and membership you would follow me for second I think it's prudent for you to pull it down then I was a good request you made while ago. Um. It really bothers me with all these changes in here it bothers me about the portal not allowing you to label it as a ratification versus in or of cue in an article done and bad away I can talk now so what i'd like to do. As i'd like to ask you a couple questions in a honest answer from the board which I know argued. And then i'd like to see you pull it down and bring it back in a later day. The chairs have asked if we could have a meeting in between now and spent in a physical session will work on that I don't I don't know if that can be done yet but. Ah sunday rice and I work with the chairs review to figure that out before friday so the proper motion can be made for that to take place. But my question is there's been a lot of talk about who made these changes this document. What I want to know as if you find out your outside council made these changes altered this document anyway without advising you that he daughtered his document or they altered this document. Will they still be your outside council after that information has found out. Your answer in from want to talk to him first to make sure that it wasn't in there before I sound it or after warrant middle of an appeal to you know states and excuse me the architects make supreme court. Oh that would have to be a decision made more the full board. Twenty two. Two determinations employment for the board. You'll have to turn off another mike for that. I can't so I won't know. And I want to look at admiral investigation into it first before I said I i'd make this determination. Based on the you know based on. The evidence that I have right now I had an I can some or speak for jeff for a moment but i'll appreciate that type of answer that you and mister magnesses gave I think those are proper answers that not think they are to be a board decision and I think you are to do the investigation but I would expect by the time you come back here for this review for this ratification that you can one hundred percent answer these questions of who made these optus and what was done. To read that from african again i've personally been involved with you guys with the private prison deal in bradley county and worked through contracts in and out in has been a nightmare to get a contract in and out of legal from both the county services and I just don't understand why this one a nightmare in this wasn't found out and that's concerning to me and I know there's been some changes over there and illegal department and maybe those things need to be looked at but I don't see you dependent on a financial guy to review a contract you got a whole legal department so that's concerning to me as well so where that must I think is proper to let him pull it down if that's their request and bring it back fixed but bring it back with the answers this committee has asked today and be able to stand up there and accurately tell this committee what's going on with this contract. I remember to go to wrap it up I have two members one has not asked a question and one has asked one question so i'm gonna give them an opportunity but before we leave says. Wrong one yeah you're off says that her hammer but I don't believe that your hammer. Okay senator stone you're recognized mrperiod magness in regards to this contract with the altercation to be made as a broad been committed. No sir I know not believe so in the reason is what he does represent us and yes it's his money we're trying to get but I can see him a put in settlement in the contract. That is something in the contract without your knowledge that wouldn't cost to broad. He's he was there and other documents four hours in center of but I don't my problem with that is continue saying maybe it's for old remote we didn't get permission it could have been in there and I didn't not notice it I keep saying that. That it could have been in the document if anybody's at fault it will that document is myself but not bringing back to the board the rotted document you did you're office or did you regularly or did you or your people originally wrap the document I did not write the document no hoodies. The. It's so earth if anybody changed it after it left your hands with that constitute fraud. Yes you can you can of the table please. And I do not know the la about that and so I don't feel comfortable answering that question so you don't think. In your opinion that it that you sent a document out and it was altered without your knowledge then executed that would cost you to fraud I know what I think but I don't feel like I feel i've not got a great with the contract being changed without my knowledge no thank you. Senator paten. Thank you mister chair. Assume I know the answer to this question but II feel like I have to ask it is mister medas out again here. Can we get him to the table. I don't know I have not seen him here now. The. So he supposed to be representing you but he didn't come here. To hear they then just be an audience member on a contract retaining to his own business. The. Again I don't seem here do you have any other legal representation here for the board. No except mr hodge. Mister hagasda hudger. The. What's his position. The. He's attorney for the year. The secretarial o corrections office. Okay did he have any participation in this in this drafting or executing this contract. Don't wait hard to do for staff and chief council for the department in the answer is no sir I did not participate in there okay so you can't speak to the chain of possession or anything like that I cannot okay well mr chair I requested if we have another meeting for time into this that that we invite. Lawyer met as that again. To we can question you. Yes certainly thank you for that reps will get too left rips in capital and then i'm coming to speaker shepherd that'll be into it replacement cabinet recognize thank you mister chair my question really is to what you're normal procedure is is it your normal procedure to sign contracts first and then send it to the vendor is that your normal procedure. I have to review i've planned a lot of contracts and send to are either the vendor or to a staff member or to aborge there yes so why would we san go I have an executor contract send it to a vendor or anyone else for their signature and then they could make changes to it the process and all the years are made doing business is if I do a contract I send it to them for their signature first then I review it when it comes back to me if it's good our son it and send them my executed copy if i'm signing a contract with a manufacturer they do the same thing they have may sound at first and then they execute it your process is exactly backwards from what it should be if it had been done properly you could have caught some of this if you're saying you did know about it beforehand so I guess i'm gonna ask how to look at your process because your process is flawed the execution should be the reverse way it is and then my other question is going to be and if staff can get can get this from mr armstrong every great in the system where we enter all the contract data information that should be handled by user id and password so we know who's in there so i'd like a time log or who was in this. Record and at what time they were in there i'd like to complete time log so I can see who excessed is record thank you thank you some cabinet will make sure to get that for your speaker shepherd you're recognized thank you miss chairman and just to echo representative word laws comments I would be agreeable to allowing the board to pull down the contract what what I would ask is that the board is indicated that you're going to undertake an investigation and given the fact that we're a may be willing to allow the leave way to withdraw the contract I would like the board's commitment to share all information related to that investigation with the bureau and with this committee because it is relevant this is these are documents that were produced and represented for the committee's review and so I would like that commitment from the board to not just report back not just to answer those questions but with regard to the investigation itself that that information would be freely shared with the bureau and this commit. II can't speak on behalf of the board I will tell you that I would the out person who be in favor there and I would I would push that with the board. Also think that and I agree with what mister barrel said but I think him in and who is going to say a volunteering for a lost bad thanks it sees the secretary of the year and of the board he aren't around the investigation still the chairman because i'm a part of that investigation when I say it when I didn't sign it and before or after it was changed now the I can say it again the board. I can't say I didn't see that document in it had it already been filled out. That may be the end of the investigation. I signed it after the attorney did after was in there. The. Oh I would have been trusting after have it correctly filled out and that's all I can keep saying well in I understand the kind of the what you've stated. By the same token gallop ask on behalf of the board to withdraw the contract for the time being in their as a term of that withdraw I would like the agreement that that investigation will be fully shared because quite honestly we could conduct our own investigation but i'm i'm not really interested in in that i'm fine with the board looking into it but I would like that commitment to cooperation in the freely sharing that information I want to say I think that it's my signatures on that document thank it's more proper for mister barris and second world to know that investigation and i've heard that he's committed he's committed to that and I would agreeable to that yes I would be fully in favor of sharing that they're being open and and transparent with anything that is fail thank you very much and thank you for your. Big fourth right with this today in terms of these answers centered urban just has a clarification I believe you're recognized thank you and I appreciate that but it's not just the board of corrections as the apartment of corrections because this should have been through a legal attorney should have reviewed this contract mrperiod brown your name is honest you are the person that's department representative with knowledge of this project that's you with your name here even though your signature is not on it you're responsible for this document as is miss johnson who is the one submitting and tracking this contract so the review needs to be both I mean it needs to be bored a corrections but it also needs to be the department of corrections and the failure here because. Legally that should have been reviewed beyond just a two financial officer so that would be my request. All right thank you senator mister magness's chairman of border you going to go ahead and officially think you're going to pull this down. Do it early our question I be pulled down to reward back at we do proper investigation and rang it back to the answers and a proper contract okay so you'll bring back the investigation and and i've had to have members also ask if it's possible to have this attorney that you've hired a present when you present the investigation findings yes okay thank you gentlemen appreciate your test my thanks for coming down today one more thing we have to do members is item e five in state contracts miscathy mr chairman we have in state contracts starting on page thirty five two for the department of commerce for marketing number three the department of commerce number four department of community corrections for re entry services number five health department for janitorial services number six DHS for specialized rehab seven d h number eight is just changing the performance indicators and rates on a residential treatment number nine on page thirty nine is adoption summaries number ten conference of residential treat treatment number eleven the dhs been surrey relations and net contracts the next one number twelve the last one for dhs for inspections number thirteen is the better area of veterans affairs and this is for temporary nursing they have two thirteen and fourteen number fifteen arkansas for the commitment's ceremonies in adding the heartland challenge you obey for hazardous disposal services you have a for a project that they're working on for a graduate school number eighteen interpreter services for UA plasky tech nineteen through thirty year old for a large there for those regional prevention providers thirty one for you all are is for twenty four hour monitoring and security services and number thirty two is the contract for you ca with. Their US able this is for a dental claims administrative surface this is and this is the one that had the accounting error that mister armstrong it pointed out in his letter but he had approved so those are all the instate contracts. I members you've heard of description of these items any questions. Seeing none without objection these out of stand reviewed how had anything else reports that we're all yeah I don't think left his reports those are in your packet seeing no other business we are adjourned.