Joint Performance Review (JPR)

Coacher center hammer for any opening comments. Thank you thank you for being here today I plan on this not being a terribly long meeting today since we spent about eight hours last week doing it in some of the key witnesses that have not shown up to testify or not here so. Three individuals mrperiod medization. Mister tallahad. And mister giles are entertain emotion from the committee to subpoena those individuals to to come testify. It don't have a motion of the second. Have a second on favor of. Center solvent thank you all they were say I all opposed up i'm sorry going to center gilmore. Real quickly I think we had to gentlemen out in the audience mister I think was that you raised in your hand. Who who who is here good all right thank you so I think maybe that that motion may need to be revised considering he's here thank you senator deal more so representative richmond that you can imagine. Megage turned on. Going bunch of boats. Center yeah i'd like to mind my emotion to move that the wish opinion of the following members of the border corrections and as mr child and mister mendez that dick in medicine again whatever yes thank you I have a second channel solves the second and discussion i'll be with all pose motion passes. And are uh. And step tells me we prove the amendment so we need to prove the emotion and self so I have a motion. And a second and second one they were say I motion passes. Okay we have minutes to put a need to approval of the minutes of motion to approve the minutes from her last meeting they have a motion in a second and the second old day was in discussion seeing none all of those motion passes okay our first witness that will call today and we have three or four so we'll start with. Let's see. Mr tollet. So if you would raise your right hand do you saw myself testimony about to give truth the whole truth of not batteries have got all right thank you please take your seat state your name and your position for the record please. The. My name is brain and tollet and on the board member on the water corrections. Thank you mister toll that so did mrperiod medisotic and provide union advice for your trust money today no. Did you meet with anyone to discuss your testimony for today nope thank you and so I guess the first question of you ever emailed or texted with mistremendous article now okay have you ever emailed or texted with other members of the board of corrections in relation to this the issue of the contract. I have not responded to emails i've received a group emails regarding for your request for the for the. Bill basically with those email request responses from board members to board members no they were it was just informed board members I believe it was actually from our office administrator to the attorney journal at the time and response to the foyer I was just a copied in those okay and have those have those been provided to the committee. I believe so okay. Any questions from the committee. Center thank you I heard testimony while go about not emailing but you have you deleted any emails for text messages. Which regards communications a worse rounding this matter that before the committee no sir okay thank you. I'm sorry center dismaying you are recognized i'm trying to find my dates but I mean the reality is though you were a member of the board after most of these decisions had been made okay yeah I mean you were part of. You know the initial process no one was calling you beforehand to ask if you know who we should are how we should part of the board at that point correct I guess yeah just make sure the rest of them committee understands that thank you. As it seemed eighty one. Center down where you recognize thank you mister chair thinking mr left for being here appreciated so just just sort of following up on center dismaying question it what point what at what point did you become aware of the hiring or or the process it went into hiring mister medisotican can you sort of walk us through that I don't I know you've got under the board just so everyone knows when when did you one what were you appointed to the board as a pouring to the board december thirty first I started at the beginning of this year okay II did not become aware of the details of the hiring uh of mr medicare again actually until mr brown brought forth amendment and in february board meeting stating that there were some issues with the procurement process that was a follow correctly in the board boated to try to correctives. So let's talk about that that memo do you do number just generally speaking with that memo stated to the board. II don't remember every detail I remember that it said that there was an issue in in the process that was that was conducted or that that occurred and mr brown had presented two possibilities to rectify that issue one was a ratification letter if I remember correctly in the other was to follow claim with the claims commission. Okay and there been any discussion prior to that point at all that you're aware of with you or you know were from staff or from more than board members or mr medicine again regarding is you know engagement with a board in any of the process surrounding that now no conversations at all now sir II did have a conversation after the fact with chad brown efforts seeing the mimo just to try to understand the process and in to be quite frank with everybody there's still a lot of questions I don't understand with their process. Well that being said if I may have a latitude mister chair. What are those questions that are unanswered for you. Just just the process that was utilized for hiring mister medicine again. The and I think they're more constitutional questions than anything that that'll probably be answered in court. Because I have questions whether which statute applies for seven or two or seven eleven is there different procurement processes and i'm new to this position i'm still learning some of the procurement law i'm not an employment attorney and so some haven't to dig in and to really learn this process as we go throughout it okay. So I know at one point we've heard and testimony at one point there was a discussion with mr brown and the board I think even within a executive session where you part of that executive session. If it was where the memo was brought up yes yes okay would you would you tell us. What was what was discussed as far as that memo the only thing that I remembered that was discussed about the memos how how he was able to adopt the member work where he got his information from and then we went back out in two normal session and he explained further the process or or where the where the issues arose and I believe the board voted just to rectify those issues at mr browns recommendation which was the ratification letter. So and and again i'll i'll keep asking permission mister chair. Okay great so just talking about how this process happened and with with the services agreement so this proterminate document that's been a question here. Do you think the process was was found correctly or do you think there was not followed all i'd like i'd like your assessment of that. Be honest I don't know control answer that on the record because of leave it it's probably a constitutional or an issue that will be addressed within the court case within the pill by the arkansas supreme court if I understand correctly I think there's a distinction in between a procurement process for. For normal state agencies normal state entities and then there may have been a separate procurement process for constitutional officers a constitution boards which is the reason why the court case has been appealed at this point I will say um. That I do understand this body's concern about having a three minute conversation to hiring an attorney okay so to our but further on that then so do you have concerns about three minutes worth of conversation about hiring and attorney in oriented these agreements apparently because under testimony that's the only discussion that was had yet there seems to be indications that a lot of other discussions or hand testimony backs that up so. Do you have concerns the or do you wish there had been more processes and in discussions as a board member. I wasn't more member at that time I have had concerns about the lack of public forum we're all here because we serve the public and into II have had concerns about the the the shortness of those conversations in public and I think my final question i'll get back in the mister chair that being said does it concern you that. The the only flag if you will from the attorney to the board was please see attached as a relates to the to the contract the procurement document and the changes he made to it. I would say yes I wasn't aware of the procurement document with we did voting to try to wrecked by the issue so that he can be paid and I wasn't where I would see yes just to the the change in the value of the contract or they're the cost the contract I think there would be something would you'd want to be made aware of okay as an informed member of the board I think that's fair and in a problem as we my last one that's just because I want to follow up on that so when you say you weren't aware of that document meaning you hadn't seen that the board hadn't seen it more didn't vote on we we did not vote on that document what we voted on was to read to to rectify the issue that it come up and into we had voted to rectify it I believe chairman magness had the authority to sign the document. In order to wrecked by the issue because that's what the board voted on now the changes may be a different conversation but but to rectify the issue we had already voted to do that but not as it was changed and you didn't you didn't know about others no I didn't see that enough thank you thank you mister thanks sir gilmore center hammer. Who would you go to today. If you had questions about the current cause I understood which test my was is that she had questions and I understand in a new spot you know feel your way around and try to figure things out so we make good decisions and not having then come back hand you but who would you go to today as a board member if you had questions about the curement process I would ask channel brown about the process for the agency those are conversations that we've had a little bit now can plan on continuing to have i'm also i'm studying it bowing and so i. Faculty members that I can ask about some of the legal specific legal questions are within the statutes and those things i'm additionally the attorney journalist office usually files this place to go to get an opinion on those things the issue here is that it's hard for the attorney general given the conflict. To be able to give an information as it currently sits. But as you should hear today you feel. Maybe not them but now you feel that you have a pathway to where you could get answers from any of the ones you just mentioned said aside where we are with the attorney general's office right now absolutely you feel it okay just make sure thank you and senator hammer and center dismay near recognizer thank you have in just winning because they touched on a little bit it was in a and I believe this I mean I think you all did vote to try to rectify the situation because of the way the initial contract with handled in that three minutes banning authority not authority had advised from staff was also you know and it's substantially being sued in in it since but. The. Did your grant the authority that unilateral through authority that was made when the changes in that contract in the individual on the board. Many the although voted to since they rectify the situation which situation that you had but you didn't. A way that i've read everything so far no one grained the one individual the authority to make changes or dot changes in act you know really for the full board. Now the vote was to rectify and at some point i'm i'm assuming that the board is going to come back together and say hey look that was an excess of what we had provided authority to do and we need to have discussion about that because that would lead to my next question which is really when you've been on the board you're gonna see it's got to be a weird time for you i'm assuming you hope that this is not the norm and it should not be the norm moving forward but as far as decisions and how they're made one of the biggest questions I have is about process and if there are process that are being followed and do we have procedures in place do we ensure that one board member because you all all have equal authority you know is an excess of the other I mean how do we keep those checks and balances place nearly whether you can do that is through transparency when you're in meetings do you feel as though or do you believe that maybe some of the discussions have already happened prior to the actual votes in just outside of this particular issue there are times where i've had that concern and I can it may I speak really on this yet there are times where i've had that concern special in the first got on the board because of all the controversies as associated with her with things that occurring some of that i've been able to rectify by looking at the depth of knowledge that that the board members have and so they may not require the same level of conversations that I require being new but I have had those concerns yes okay right thank you. And sender hammer thank you. Back on the precurming issue now that you've been on the board the linked family have a few at a chance to look at anything else historically from a procurement point of view that you've heard that you have concerns about I have not as a vietnam. I have not as yet looked into anything or have not as yet found anything because you have looked into the the things that I have seen a habit seen a concern because the agency has followed procurement processes for many years and the things that were typically built on such as the the medical contract that's we've gone through those processes that the department questions going to those processes numerous times so I haven't seen anything that I have had a concern with that okay thank you they could send her hammer and represent the baby. Thank you mister chiero missed to let him over here thank you for your service on the board of corrections and I have a question you you joined the board in december of twenty three is that correct yes and and trying to follow up on the december eighth meeting where the decision the higher outside council was made if I had my time like correct. Yeah. When did you first become informed or or know that that was going to be a an an item of discussion at that meeting. And I wasn't on the board of that meeting II was appointed december thirty first and I and I didn't begin service until january twenty four oh okay that's why I was asking if it was twenty three or nine obviously okay so. I don't have a question and thank you. Center petty you recognize. Thank you mister chair. So just following up on procedures and and questions that center to dismain had just to clarify one thing um you had mentioned and then he followed up talking about the the feeling or or at least pushing the pass button that may be some of these conversations were uh prior to those meetings and you said maybe it was it was their depth of knowledge versus yours being new but but you did have that cause for at least pause to consider hey what am I missing or you know did I miss a meeting or did was there it was their conversation had is that basically what you were saying yes are at the beginning of my time on the board I had those concerns and II can tell you that just spending time with with some of the other board members in hearing them speaking and speaking to staff members with an apartment of corrections I think some of that legitimately was from just them having the depth of knowledge that they have from the tons of the serve on the board okay thank you in one more mr chair then this gets into the process is that uh again senator to spain was talking about in maybe hasn't happened since you've been on the the board in january but the document in in question that was you voted to to rectify the situation at least in my eyes it says it's a contract in it implies it's a contract by some of the language in there I think maybe the medicine in uh indicated that he didn't view it as a contract but our contracts in general I know staff attorney reviews I think I heard that but do the board members review those before their authorizing whoever it is to say those do you contracts like this normally get approved by the board normally we do we will review contracts and approve them within the agency as far as the legal question about whether this is a contract I cannot answer that this time. I'm i'm not an attorney but I do we we do normally review contracts yes and at this point the at least there's a debate or you know disagreement whether or not that adam was a contract or not much like some of the other issues that there's a debate on but but normally though contracts get reviewed by the board before they are authorizing whoever it is decided aboard chair whoever to sign those who is what you're saying yes thank you. Thank you senator and nuts any further questions from the committee seeing none and mr let your excuse the with the understanding that our next meeting we're going to bite you back in case of potential to answer more questions yes okay thank you and the committee calls mister brinfield. The. Thank you for being here mister broomfield so if you raise your right hand and do you saw miss where the test money about the given shall be the truth the whole truth nothing that true so I have to go. Thank you and I take your seat please and state your name and your position for the wrecker. Pushed a button on. Ah. There you go i'm operated like the more it's a poor bit best already taroni broom fear a bar member of border criteria what a correction that passed a better immediate novel thank you mister broom bill thanks for being here and so did mister medizodic and never provide you with any advice on your testimony for today no sir that have you sat in the in discussed what your testimony would be per today with any other members of the board of the corrections not anybody else no sir okay thank you and so questions from the committee. And center gill more you recognize pastor thank you for being here thank you sir and miss chair thank you for recognizing II think again just some of the same. Lot of of questioning you have more experience than mister tila so you you how long have you been on the board yes I believe it was nineteen ninety three we need a saturday to bought a parade probation board and correction board together under governor bill clinton but I was off three or four years doing the hookabe administrative that I was pointed back on by mag bb and two time based governor you've been here while i've been alone all day so you you have a lot of history with this with this board so you know some of the things it would that we've. That we've heard throughout this process is maybe that there's a lack of process so I want to kind of go back when did you first become aware of mister medisotic and being brought in to have these discussions about. Board function and other things related to department one was the first time you were made aware of him okay i'm not good on dates but I can take you best you recollect okay I remember the cost it was added a second we know we've been to two two trials after the second trail and the ruling world that we need to get that we could give them another lawyer to represent us and add it when and data their second travel I can remember when it was I thought ahead in my phone but this when we start talking about it. So it start you start talking about it after the lawsuits at a lot of the second trow because I and have been referred to way most of the boy member probably feel I came to be putting in but I feel like that you know you you gotta be for me against me. And I think the wait as they would go away then are at that time and duel to stand i've been knowing a turn again for years but that get tired with he had to make a deceit even beef at a state of before the porter courage and I don't think you notice the relatively old I don't think he feel a couple of trying to do both of it. But I can speak okay and and maybe maybe my question wasn't very clear so you're what you just said was you became aware of mister medisott again. Coming on as as california for the power game the cable where we go look for an attorney okay that did that the court had given us right if we want to want to we could get some wine to finish in their position and we did and he said that if excuse me about may you said that happened for you you became aware of that after the added and also this a second hearing I came to the date was. Okay II guess i'm I don't I guess i'm having a hard time with that so let me move on for that we may come back to that do you remember the first meeting that you're you'll have to with mister medis out again. The first meeting II don't think we had it as a full meeting with him matt understand when it when I had made him I made it made dear per trial. Eddie okay. So you don't recall any discussions about his being hired or anything like that I do discuss with a. Uh one of the boy members alisco that will leave because I want to fan out what kind of and never had heard of him as double and i'll try to find out what kind of lawyer was it was the was the ability to tackle what we had in man would it be fair and I thank you all probably heard in one of the some in a minutes could I hear it admitted they have weakened out here that I did extra question I had just wanted to make sure we do it right yes and II remember that and so I did a check on it and. And I thought we had their daughter to high now our also understand it and that are lawyers I expected and so I never didn't know I feel like he would be fair witnessed date I figure what we're in a van but a you know I don't know how much the maker no i've been round long as my brother was allowed you have been round another my good friend just to have a lot of so i've been around lawyers and they get paid a whole lot better than preaches so I just feel that I just feel like they would he would you know he would be fair and but I never may admit remember said the son of mine may have put unlimited to and dear I couldn't be here when the chairman and about test affair but I do remember that one of the thing that I have x wanted to make sure we could write were then if we did anything wrong there are it would be come back to you old and we will get a corrected and you all work regularly we do the best we can to correct what we did wrong and I don't know where we can be able to correct it but but the bottom of the years madbe concern senators and representative my biggest ideas now and i'm not trying to avoid your question but all my way here in a day ahead of a family member call concern about it so I guess microsoft ideas they are not pushing you out at active fair so we can get this behanded and go back to the work I think that what you all think if the governor won't earn unlaw and know that without warning if a meeting today i'm also have two state meeting and I assured it would a one of the silicits and I told him I could get up go back to the church to horse it it overlooked this morning. But. Ah if I made a mistake in it was made a mistake up at round is bored long enough in though then we try to do worse right and i'm with agg will be a part and that anything does not right. But first to your question. And they'll be corresped don't know to vote on anything if you will look at the minute and they have been ministered at the end in fact of me before it is as stay for me involved cos I want to you met the meeting and I know you'll what will go on all but if i'm near and I think that i'm doing right and will voice my opinion and move on so thank you for that yes appreciate your honesty there and I think I can speak for buying this room we just want the process to work in that and we want there to be a process and we would love to have all this behind us and I think just speaking candidly I think the board of corrections has a big role to play in that mister i'll get back into the queue thank you thanks sinner gilmore and mrperiod broom for a picky back on what a sender gilmore receive it it's it's important that we as a body because we are stewards of the taxpayers download that we do I said he may have been up now to introduce difficult we we do things right and this as part of what these proceedings are doing is figure out what we did wrong and then fix it so this doesn't happen again and then then we can get back to work so with that being said do you did you know that the border corrections does not have a appropriations. Yes and foot it far the period lawyer so you voted to put it out on the impression then since the attorney couldn't repent it that there would be some appropriations somewhere I mean. How many want to be a member of a committee that if I didn't have some kind of appropriation and since the course said that the attorney general you know didn't do it a week and a half from what I could hear from him and that nature must represent it that he you can tell him we've been francis but mac or so and was our one make sure that we get fair process and then when it went to trauma say we could I think you read the that we had a option and I just feel like it would be better for us to get this and I know that we get this for in deep into and I thought we get it and move all and I appreciate the stability how much on its own stand me needed I don't think nobody want to be here and we know you all get some stuff to do this will we'll move on but I guess the the the court said that you could out outside council but they didn't tell you how you were going to pay for it but I was on an alchemist on the assumption and when I was trying to see you that we reported it to stay. And and i'm still trying to figure out in a case like this if it happened again. Does a board or commercial commission had a raise deal money. I'll do this a way we can get my attention on impression that if you probably was another way without the hour and when he said we could get war and I think probably nobody thought it will come this long with some mourn thank you for your come sender to spend your recognition and I think I can help with some the timeline and make some of what he saying reconcile with previous estimate up you were present for the december eighth meeting meeting you had made some motions we know some people had second of your motions but when we get to the time so the conclusion we get to the executive session I don't know if you were in that meeting or not it doesn't is not reflected that you are you know there was a most my mister gas second in band sorry mr felt second my guess to go into the executive session. So you're not mentioned there you know they leave that's when we go into this three minute meeting and in that three minute three minute meeting it was mr watson that made the motion it was seconded by buyers and mister watson buyers and gas voted yes. And only felt in jals voted no. Man is also voted yes and so you're not mentioned even in the vote in south it makes a whole lot of remember net may have not been present for the I was our present at the beginning but after weaker are at the end of the meeting I had a feeling that that's what it looks like to know and had leaded to go to the church i'm sorry that's why he's answering the question of the many he's talking about is after everything was already said emotion they go in mr brown others may be said hey we've got some issues with the procurement until your credit you were one of the only ones that did you ask are we doing this the right way in the response was laughter if I remember I wish I was an answer to a few of the added and and so I would just say I appreciate the fact that you were trying to make sure that there was a process being followed even though you weren't part of the original decision to hire an attorney that's what it looks like to me and I think from everything you're saying you were not aware that there was a search for an attorney you'd miss the last part of the meeting and since no one could publicly talk about it or did public adopt talk about it another meeting you were never aware that even the attorney was hired to come back in and found out hate there's something that we've got a fix here for mr brown whoever alerted the board and then that's where we are and so you setting for us again that makes a whole lot of sense from your perspective in again the one thing I will say is if you just look at the transcripts you were won the only ones to ask is this right and for that III do appreciate that and then you are a miller now and it had definite church and how I in fact if you first if a photograph for the I hate on my clear to your time. In at the end had to leave that on where some more action took play about that was that there yeah there is a reason important three minutes you were not present for everyday thank you I didn't come back yeah because that what we could have all been had appreciated i'm sure it was a good one and appreciated things. Represent a baby thank you mister chairman revered brainfield over here it's always good to see that gentleman with tires to ask you so it's good for have you let me go and and thank you for your service that I wanted to kind of follow up on what what the senator had pointed out because reviewing the report for presented by doctor buyers there there was no mention of you at the december eighth of the fourteenth meeting where the votes for taken and I think that clarified some of the some of the questions and some of the statements you made about when you were notified my question goes back to prior to that december eighth meeting were you aware and did you have knowledge that you're going to seek outside council. I think that your from the prices that we when we're to trout a new thing I feel like from the death of my high in if I had a bindia problem with a voted to go here and get castle because well my question is prior to that voda in prior to showing up for the december eighth maybe cause i'm assuming and you can say yes or no december eighth that was an agenda item that was on the agenda that you're going to discuss so my question is prior to showing up for that meeting had their been discussions or someone spoken to you about hey we're going to have our outside council know when it would work no one spoken to me as such as they are doing being going to be about that hard on the council but I do want to see then a new and some additional mahe that we're going to have to give them outside of house and fund a trial. Right and in the trous after after the whole council on everything else so that's further down the line but that day at that meeting you walked into a meeting you had no knowledge that the day on the agenda we're going to talk about higher and a lawyer until you got there and maybe solve the agenda where we're out now I can we get the general in advance I knew about it because on the agenda anything that on agenda and I get it should well set question last week and I didn't get clarification if it wrecked if it was actually placed on the agenda or if it's something that was in addition to the agenda that the board voted to air to the agenda so no one ever gave me clarification on that you saying that the attorney was actually owned no no no no as if it was only agenda I got the gym and sometime when we get there is suffer that it's important what we do here we have make an amendment to the agenda and then talk about it and I can't remember what we did on it or not all right what I do know he may be remained at I did have a feeling that day and I had a leave on the heat well appreciate your clarification then an explanation on that because of minutes and and the report reflected you know not in not abstaining yay nay or anything in that that clears that up for us they the you had left the meeting at that time so again thank you don't you so center here you recognize thank you with all your knowledge that has been expressed in your testimony thus parked. Did you find anything unusual even though you weren't there if I understood to tell them on your right you find it unusual that such a decision was made in a matter of a three minute meeting and didn't really know it was a three minute beaten to have him this week last week. But i'm not surprised if if i'm in at the meeting at all and they got a core room which is my understanding. That I don't necessarily have to be at the mean for action to take place that's just over edward but an I wouldn't have been developed a prammy and had been three. Add an excellent question and just like I did on a meeting priority if you read the minute I was not at a meeting and what happened was when they that home best soon being business are staying in finally because I came back on the nap and all I went there to hear. Okay. And in your test point me to go and correct me from wrong you said something to the effect of in I think shared just main pointed it out as well that you had raised a question. Are we doing everything the way we're supposed to be doing or something to that effect yes we're in a lot of time I actually course in the call that we got legal council is the meant and i'm not a lawyer in our way depend on the lawyer in a room a mad vase just lack of tickle thousand taxes i'm dependent on my cpa to make sure it's right in our accident and I looked at the lower you know so are we doing everything like read a word for league somewhere into it and I was told yes and which lawyer was add or a huge lawyer your referencing by name who who is. The download the bought away with and the boy lawyer is a hour mark markover okay and so you were given confidence that by by him that everything was okay but right by several of the the but when the boy and beat the board got through a full lawyer in the house but in a market our life did you got some more low you know there but I look at all of and nobody in say no okay good deal thank you thanks to him center dismantle recognized the initiatives for clarification and other questions that that was the the topic of hiring an attorney was not on the board or he wasn't part of the agenda that was something that came about after they went into a thirty minute executive assertion and then after a lunch again in their inning and the reason he was not aware it was it was not an agenda item it was something that was not discussion executive committee compared you know per the boy other board members because they couldn't have discussed an executive committee but was discussion in three minute meeting after they got back from launch and then in in that three minutes is where they just refresher that's where they first said that they needed a higher and attorney and the attorney within three minutes prior to that there is no documentation by the board anywhere that at the hiring of the board member was discussed publicly. And that's why when he's telling you what he asked the attorneys what he was asking the attorneys if it was right or we do in the right thing and try to figure that out that was are we doing the right thing by trying to fix you know this you know by allowing mr random that enter into or whoever was to follow the process which the great they would have in the correct answer they're trying to rectify the situation. The. Center hammer. Yep thank you the results but three minutes was because I just want to make sure. That you head up to to express your opinion here today is where you thought a weighty decision in three minutes was was a proper thing to do that was part of that but let me go back let me ask you another question how long have you been on the board again. Altogether probably about ninety three up under the day take away four art long time long day appreciate your service but they aren't in the pulpit as well and so i'd I looked you as they say as a man of the cost is there anything in your length of time that you have seen as a board member that you think that the board has ever done that was outside of what the legal council gave them advise to do no sir. Job if it was an hour and may should actually course in in it and I would have voted no against it. Okay thanks sir in other things if if you if your normally and no since the spring and no me and other young me. If you ever been a more than three minute beating because I can talk in three minutes if you go home on three minutes that they have been present and center stone you're recognized yes reverend of this over this waste of do you think it's properly that the board attorney made material changes to the contract and including the price change without uhm down the elected letting me anybody know properly I don't think it's a problem but you know I think alternatively it is is my father I was a carpeter and when you go into a attorney business you might give one figure and still pops up but what about the other changes to be made you know like weight and sovereign immunity and and then everything else were those proper changes to be made when I think we need all let him tell the family to him if you wrong at that you know we need to make sure it be just a fair lower what you know now that contract was set before you today we use about to approve it. The contract I said knowing what you know now if that can't track was sitting before you today to boat on this aboard member would you vote to approve it if I knew the day where called your hands say don't yet be this case if I knew the day. What were there our trade hole a contract and getting some kind of information to make sure what we brought to you all was correct thank you mister chair. And thank you senator stony or further questions from the committee seeing none thank you mister bringfield for being here they thank you thank you all and you can I get offering. Thank you and the committee calls mr chad. Yeah. Okay. Okay well thank you thank you mister brimfield. Thank you for being her miss browns at the abrasion right hand do you saw miss where the test money about the give beat shall be the truth the whole truth not batteries up please take your seat and see your name and position for the record chair brown chief financial officer department of corrections thank you mister brown and so did mister mitter's out again give you any advice on your testimony for today no sir did you prepare for your testimony with anybody else on the border corrections or discuss the issue at hand. Not previous testimony other than just like conversation okay alright thank you and questions from the committee. The. Center center gill more you recognize thank you miss chair and thank you mister brown for for being here. Would you mind just walking us through a time line of advance that sort of got us to where we are because so there's there's been some discussion as to your role in this contract and I think that there may be a hand out mister chair. That I had requested. Through the the bureau and I don't know if that is made its way out to the committee yet but sort of a timeline of events so would you would you sort of walk through especially. I think it was march fifth in six walk through sort of that chain of violence and who emailed you and who contacted you I think there may be more things that will circle back but i'd like to start there and then we may go back to the december eighth and talk about some other things sure. So as as testing all he's been given on march fourth fifth and six things started to move pretty quickly. I know I was instructed at a board meeting to get the attorney pay. When this process started on the december meeting when the attorney was hired a mattress my procurement staff who do their best job to keep me between the lines are informed me that they believe the procurement law was violated. At that point in time. I did my own research made a few contacts and talked to chairman magness about it he also agreed that I should contact two or three people to have a conversation I did there that's where my mimo came from just to let everybody know that hey this is kind of the situation that we're in here's some realities on how to fix the problem that we're in you guys were approved to hire outside council however you're. Funding comes from the division of correction so therefore I believe we have to follow these state procurement law since it comes from stationary revenue. Chairman magazine not opposed he just wanted me to do my own research and try to figure out what the best way to go about it was. So when we started this process we received the definite cannot stop your real quick sure so that conversation I think it happened it was testified to maybe an ALC review committee was that. That initial date I think was maybe january white. When when he when they told you to pay it after you would issue the memo. Do you member demember of that date now is no sure it was at a board meeting I know it's in my time line that I provided. I think it was an executive session correctly what what we believe it was after exactly as after an executive session there was an executive session that happened that they were there that were they asked you about your memo that's correct okay so they had an executive session ask you about the member what was the discussion in there so the discussion in executive session. Mr lewis in and it was the main wine there. Had questions in the executive session and when it balls down to it he wanted to know the process that I came to. In with the conclusion of my mimo and how to fix. Kind of wear the board is they he basically want to know who I have been speaking with and he specifically asked me if I had been speaking with the return general's office. Because I did my best not to call names out in my mimo uh I just don't I don't like doing that. So at when I said legal and my mimo I refer to inside counselor department corrections which is mister weight hard he helped me draft the mimo. But I explained who all I talked to executive session and how I came about formulating the memo that I gave to the board. The. Okay. So. The. That memo deep demo is a date of that minimum barry chance I believe it was january nineteenth nineteenth okay we see if I can were you wear any discussions prior to that date of the attorney. Been hired going well back are being probably in december. No sir no one from the board ever reached out to anybody that I know with the department of corrections there are still okay so you were you were only aware when they said pay this hours away when I voted on it on december eighth okay that's when the balls and then they followed it with you to say pay this great as correct okay all right i'll get back in the cheapest chair thanks there are going on so does this sound familiar missed browsers as cheap financial officer department corrections I cannot approve payment unless or until one of the following corrective options have been taken one the board may submit a letter to the office of person of state procurement requesting ratification of the contract which will go before a review subcommittee of the legislative council and then the four council or upon receipt of an invoice the board could instruct its private council to file a claim with arkansas claims commission seeking payment for his services at the mayor yes sir that is in the nineteen january member states on the third age of what was the response from mister magnus for response for mr magness and even with mr white and they both refer back to one of the orders from the last suit and said that they had the ability to hire outside council and I told them that you may have the ability to hire outside council since we use state revenue in the council the division of correction I believe we have to follow procurement law in order to get in paid these are the two mechanisms to get him paid since it is coming from state revenue and I did any member of the border corrections or the department of cricks and staff pressure you to send the contract through be a lot quickly no sir I believe that one is on me moving the process a little too quickly and good did you ever feel like your job is in jeopardy if you didn't find a way for a whole booth smith to get paid no surrounded day isn't it true that you are pulled into an executive session with the board of corrections yes sir okay how long. Did they question you in that executive of session. I saw you up to thirty minutes don't want the question you about their question be about who I talk to in order to draft the member of the provider so that's where the question came out dear have you been talking to the turning general's office yes sir okay so appointed kelly knuckles complete the questionnaire from the the alc meeting on the twelfth of march on behalf of the border correctly because their questions pose respond the up the board and not the department of corrections so this knockless works for me I asked her to go back and review the video and. List out the questions that need to be answered and when she listed those questions out that I was talking to secretary wallace and. In a department to say as a department of corrections the last thing you want or multiple points of contact so we utilize missed knuckles to be the center point of a contact for the answers to those questions so we submitted those if they were for the board we sent those to me grey there for the department we had all those in house miss knuckle's compare that we gave heard putting in one document probably reality last thing you want to border corrections not follow a procurement process but sender gilmore you're recognized on site with. The. Senator gilmore escaped so center hammer you recognized could you talk about the twelve minute meeting ahead with that arm strong as far as the content would advise you were given and did that play rolling any advice that you gave to the board sure so I contacted mr armstrong and he was the director for the officer state from german at the time i've no mister i'm strong for several years so I wanted to call to get his input since I knew this was going to come his way at some point in time. I try to keep most of my staff out of this process for for reasons but when I talk to mister armstrong are basically laid out the situation was in hand you have some lawsuits going on the board hard and attorney out of a board meeting the one on our side was contacted the board does not have their own appropriation in funding and therefore it comes from our budget so. I was basically asking his opinion. Based on the lack of appropriation in funding and it comes from state general revenue. Are we required to follow the procurement process. His answer to me was chared I cannot. Give you my formal opinion on this but I will give you my opinion as it aren't strong I think you're going down the right pass that's the external what he told me he never gave me any concrete information as to yes they do know they don't it was just said he thinks some more down the right path to phone right payoff. Right path me in order to pay this attorney we need to follow the state's procurement process in the long. And so since they got into this I believe incorrectly we need to come before us the legislature and ratify what took place you get that corrected for the potential of this attorney in pay as I look back on this process i'm not real sure the department should have been involved in it. This is not a department contract and i've played this over in my head several times even up and why when you first your department to find which department you refer that would be the department of correction okay so I consider the board of corrections and department of corrections two separate entities. This is the board's contract I heard mister medicard again make some statements there he felt that I should have negotiated this contract it's not our contract. This is the boards contract with mr messaging in any changes that were made to that contract. I don't feel it's upon the department to negotiate those changes. And i've had a hard time separating in this conversation you have to separate. The board versus department and not versus is in competition with the board in the department. The board to my knowledge has never gotten into a contract on their own mister madison i've talked about that several times we've gone back in asias and looked we can't find where the board is procured of contract. Since I know since i've been here. The department has and the department has protocols in place to catch these kind of new answers and when they're changes to a contract. I believe. After thinking about all this and what took place and then you started moving quickly. Someone on the board or their staff. Should have been in contact with osp state profession. If that were the case this sri reform that is in question would never have been created in the first place. The problem is when you look on osp's website the board would not have any option to utilize that portal because when you do the drop down there is no option for the board of corrections. There is no option for. A proper way to fix something that has been messed up for the board of correction who's never gone down this path before. So therefore we felt it was on us to help fix this issue for them i'm not sure looking back at was the best decision made. Things were happening quickly you can see the timeline that are provided. Things were happening very quickly and looking back on it as reverend room filled said. I think what should have happened is the board should have written their ratification letter it should have been submitted osp. Somebody from the border on their staff should have been in contact with state procurement and let them know that we have no option to get something on you also agenda. And what that process looks like because the department process we have our process to get on yours agenda to ratify contract we have messed up there there's not that process so. There's a multiple things around this whole issue that needs to be addressed if boards can get into contracts they need to have the ability to go through the proper protocols to do that with you guys getting approval from you. And so. It would be proper say that the board did not have authority to enter into a contract away the law or weight procurement large currently allows that first statement well respectfully center i'm not an attorney not sure that I want to be after this okay and I don't know the answer to that question. Then let me ask you this one i'll yield mischairman. In it and if you an answer to final give you of escape door out you don't have to but I want to ask you. So do you think it was a matter of there was no process in place or do you think it was a matter that the processes that were in place we're not followed. I don't think there's a process in place on the board side of the equation because again they've never gone down this path before so this is a new process. But it's a self created process. I'm not going to disagree with you okay alright thank you mister thanks center hammer and south follow up piggy back on center hammer's question so if if there's not a process in place. When it makes sense to you for some ideas say we don't have a process here what do we need to do consult state procurement. Or somebody to figure out the the the proper way to do it. Well that makes sense now that course as we are not that our policies get created something doesn't go right. Probably caused parties get put in place for to prevent that in the future. I don't know i'd produced. This all happened so quickly. That we as the department we normally handle administrative functions for the board with those are normal processes that always take place this process is never taken place and we assume that role anyway and we didn't stop to really think. You know what maybe this is not our role and we shouldn't be involved in this so looking back if I had to do it over again that's that's the process did anybody notify you that that contract had been altered or edited no sir okay now that mr magnus lee watson should regret nobody mentioned anything to you about it being altered no sir okay thank you and center hammer you recognize. So just for the record because some may not have the benefit of the timeline it's been handed out to us I just want to be getting on the record the time that you spoke to mr armstrong was while he was still employed with the state agency he is not employed now where he was at the time that you asked him. For you had that conversation correct when I talked with mr and he was still the director for officer state program I just want to get that on the record that because he's not there now but he was then I just want to get that thank you. Senator deal more you recognize thank you mister and apologize stepped out of my seat for a second and so I asked the chairs beginners for their but thank you for allowed me to follow up so mr brown thank you for compiling my request this detailed timeline is as you understand it and and experienced it this is basically a sequence of events that let us to where we are here I think we've sort of covered some of the december eight staff and you know lots of issues there I could argue and have or hute and so I think what we see is a general like a process I want to I want to get out of january january so january two you there's a conversation when mr colbert so you said there's a text first then you had a conversation mister can you so mr colbert for everyone's awareness can you can you tell us who he is. He is the attorney for the board of corrections on staff. Works for the board yes sir I think they've referred to him previously as a compliance attorney. Yes okay all right so can you can you walk through. That conversation. Sure so this was part of the conversation out which terminal magnets mister cohert was a first person he wanted me to reach out to so I reached out to mister cobert account it didn't go in any order I got a whole lot of armstrong first mister kohler was next. I talked to mr cover based on advisement from mr bonus and mister bagness said the mister cobert is our attorney so make sure you go through him burst. I did when I spoke to mr colbert and I told him that we are going to be sending a ratification loader and I know there's going to be an invoice coming basically everything that was taking place as i'm going to send you a couple of questions if we're gonna have to figure out how to answer these questions. Those questions are I would have to go back and look at a basically they involve two things at the first thing was the procurement. A aspect of the attorney that they hired on december eighth the second thing was reimbursement payments for previous board member winning gas. Once her appointment expired I was trying to figure out when we can reimburse her and when we cannot based on all of this taking place while she was on the board. So those were the two days mister corbert called me. After have after I talked to him the first time he said don't see me this and an email please I really don't want to be in the middle of this. White will could you restate that. He told me he did not want to be in the middle of this okay and he said specifically don't put in an email correct. Okay why would he not want it in an email. He said based on the last suits that were taking place they are getting forward like crazy in. I have that was his reasoning. Okay but is that I mean okay so i'm i'm a little bit concerned by that in the sense of. We've heard other testimony where there's been conversations about you know. The. An intentionally trying to avoid foyer. That test might happen just you know a few days ago and another hearing like this. I mean is that standard practice is that the process is that the norm I mean I find it I hope i'm not the only one that funds that concerning. Well sooner I can only speak for myself I have been doing this for twenty three years and I don't. I understand for you I try not to get around it because i'll find myself in this situation radio. Okay. Please please continue if you would go in through that chain of events sure so the third person I talked to and have known him for several years also was the controller for the department of financial administration and I really I knew he really didn't have a dog in this fight but I wanted his and i'm talking about mister batten but I wanted his background for legislative audit cause I know that's where he came from in I basically laid out the same discussion with him that I had with mister armstrong. And of course I was not expecting mister babber to give me a concrete answer like I said that's not in his part of you in this matter but when I explained to him that the board does not have an appropriation or do they have their own funding it comes out of division of correction. I believe we should have followed the procurement process and he said shared. I believe you're on the right path and I think you need to stick with it. Okay and so you were trying to follow that process. Yes sir okay. So going back a second ago and i'll i'll be done with this question mister chair going back a second ago we talked about discussion that happened where they they pulled you me and I think it later and you know maybe later in january eighteenth or nineteenth I don't remember exactly which around that error that time they pulled you into an executive session how long were you in executive session with the board. Twenty thirty minutes twenty thirty minutes and that was the only thing discussed was questioning of you. Yes sir that was your bonus class okay so there's no other comments or questions about your employment or anything like that no sir they they really wanted to see if we had been talking to the ag's office okay. So. It will end in in what was that discussion what do you remember the question that was asked whether or not you were. I guess I guess the implication was you were colluding with the ag's office. I would assume so mister watson started the questioning he was on the far left of the table in the conference room and I was sitting at the head of the table. He asked me to pretty much. Walk them through how I came to what i've come to and I basically explained the timeline in the best I could on. I talked to mr magness I talked to it around strong I talked to mark over and I talked to mister bed from the fna and that's how I arrived at my mimo in they said. In this was as the world we noticed you said you confirmed with legal in your memo can you specify who legal is and I said that's mr weight harge legal for department of corrections and he said do you know if mr harch has been talking to the ag's office and I said i'm ninety nine percent sure he has not. I don't know what he does on his personal time with it other one percent but to my. Nobody else talked to the ag's office okay and and were they in executive session for any period of time before they called you in. Of course when you're standing outside executive session feels like sure but I would say I probably stood out in waiting maybe ten minutes but for the time that you were brought in it was specifically related to your your mimo and only your memo and question your member when your employment or anything else did not come that's correct okay thank you I get back in the cumberchair thanks soon again more and cinterest on you recognize mr brown in regard to this contract do you believe it's border corrections operated outside their scope of authority in your opinion. Sorry that's a telephone for me to answer the only thing that i'm worry about when it comes to the board and what they've done is the procurement and trying to fix the procurement these correctly. So anything that has taken place. I'm not a legal guy I don't know i'm just looking at the process and trying to figure out the correctly to do it. Okay thank you mature. Thanks center stone and singer petty recognized. Thank you mister chair. Missed brown thank you just to clarification on your timeline here you had mentioned the december eighth board meeting where they voted to hire in attorney and then that same day when you're not speakers that miss bailey informed you the procurement law was not followed after the meeting was she a was she at the meeting is she normally at the meetings she's normally there yesterday okay and do they get an opportunity to speak up with when or do they feel like they can speak up if if. Like in this situation she felt like procurement law was not followed was that. After she left the meeting and went back and did some researcher was that pretty much immediately after the meeting she felt like that procurement law hadn't been followed give me an addi on the time in in. So after the board meeting like I said everything happened quickly I would say before close of business that day I don't remember an exact time or how long it was before she came and told me like hey they they thank you valet procurement law. Standing up in a board meeting and. For better work for better words that conversation yellow not that you valley procurement laws probably not the best place to do that so weren't when miss bailey told me that it was in our best interest before I contacted anybody and told me on what we thought it was in our best interest as a department to go back and researched and make sure what we were about to do is correct. The reason we wanted to make sure what we were about to do is correct. His wow we're seeing in front of you today. You're recognized. So dear between the a. And the twenty second board meeting deared the position of miss bailey or or you were anyone changed to think to the indicate that maybe you had after all followed the procurements that law or because at that point someone at least a person or two felt like your crement law was not followed in and yet we are retroactively engaging the uh the services of the attorney did anything change or any other conversations afterwards like you said not in the middle of the board meeting standing up and shouting at but but where their conversations between the end because the blood time has lapsed between december twenty first and now or when we first started having these hearings so did anything change to say maybe we are okay or or we did follow or give me some though sir I have I have not changed my opinion on this since december eighth. The only reason I have not changed my decision on this since december is because it's paid for a was stationary revenue utilising stay general revenue you have to follow procurement so what we did when I say we it was myself a few people on my team in the procedure division of that be this heather bailey one of them and a couple of other people on my team. We started doing a research I started having conversations with mister weight hard since he's an attorney trying to figure out what the losses if there's an exemption if there's not an exemption whose extent who's not example. We try to find everything we could before I reached out and had a conversation with chairman magness on how to go forward once we came to that conclusion. And we felt like we were correct I had a phone call with uh chairman magness and that's when he said you had you need to reach out and speak to those people that you recommended in the which were mister culver in armstrong and the controller definitely. The. The. Are you recognized sorry one less follow so that obviously the research is you and your team dead occurred and you reach your conclusion after that the december twenty second date or would it have been before the the twenty second debt board meeting date well I would say we restart column or a conclusion on january nineteenth when we finalized our memo that went to the board okay thank you. They'd center and represent the terror ship where I heard that thank you mister chair and thank you for being here today I want to make sure that understand your testimony today correctly. From what i've gathered so far it appears that you're you are here for how they went into the contract. And after you realize the date in that followed the law you reached out to the board chairman met and it says they're correct yes ma'am okay and at that point I also heard you state it's nation much is is how they went about it but you also stayed it because this has never happened before there are no process is in place so it sounds like to me it's if this was something that was the board in a tilt to intentionally valid lol is because they entered it to a contract that they didn't know they could not enter into india there was also no process in place to show them what to do is they're correct that's correct in the executive session they ask me a couple of questions about it in and I told him I said II cannot pay the invoices coming my way and they ask why so I don't think you guys is a board maliciously did this however. If I pay this invoice thinking that we value from your law now I will be in trouble for it and that is not something I was willing to put my twenty three years of service at stake for so I wanted to make sure if we have a bunch of attorneys and they cannot all agree that a proper process has been followed. Then me as the cfo i'm not paying an invoice. So if all the attorneys can agree i'm good to go but if they're not. About follow up mr chair you recognize so as the cfo in in our understand directly that there's a separation between the department of correction in a board of correct she is so what would be your recommendation moving forward as a relates to the board of corrections in possible future contracts sure that's a great question and I think. I think the the boards authority to get into a contract is going to have to be handled on the legal side of the equation I don't I don't know the answer to that question on the procurement side. That will follow whatever the court decides to court decides that the board has authority to get into a contract then I think protocols need to be put in place not only from the department sad from the board side from the state procurement side maybe from an appropriation side where the board gets their own appropriation and funding there's a lot of pieces of this puzzle but I think need to be put together but I think we need to wait on the courts to decide how we're going to go for thank you welcome thanks miss shepherd representative thank you missed chair mister brown my question goes back it the end of the audit report that was provided if this committee by doctor buyers under the recommendation that they were the board established a protocol for development submission of procurement documents has anyone spoken with you on a draft of providing input in the preparation of that protocol and procedures for development and submission appro- procurement documents no sir not yet thanks sir they can miss baby and representative brown met brown thank you mister chair mr brown during your career with the stay how many of the services contracts would you estimate that you have been involved with or have reviewed. The. That's a great question I would say a lot would you say a hundred thousand. I don't know if I want to go hundreds of thousands of hundreds i'd say up to that volume chair you recognize. With your review of these these contracts have you ever come across where. The boiler plate of a services contract has been altered or edited I have not no sir. And in one final follow up this chair on the services contract are here and I apologize if you don't have in front of you but I knows the top right hand corner of it it says procurement method and then it says emergency slash exempt from walk were you the one that prepared this this contract originally I understand we prepare the contract originally yes but we did not do that and and I was i'd like to say so was the exempt from wall another one of these edits that was made to the contract at the attorney yesterday are thank you mister chair. Thank you missed brown and seeing no further questions sir mister brown appreciate you being here today thank you for your very frank and answers to our questions and so you're you're excuse thank you in a near tell you the last witness for the day it will be mister weight hodge from the partner correction so members will be meeting again on the twenty second of april at ten o'clock in the morning will convene again a bit says we have but we're subpoeniing a couple folks that'll be here so we're gonna knock it off early today and then we'll reconvene on the twenty first representative but spring or jeff question yes sir good avenue thank you could you enquire of the bureau your smart understanding the previous testimony that mr abdom indicated that he and representative the executive committee of the legislative council could you air inquire about helpful process that they utilise an order for their representation to take place and maybe there will yep shared some wide owned was taking place through today can you do that so you're your warning to and I think after if you like it with the misgeal there you can explain that the. Okay yes but based upon a testimony today. So you're you're represented spring your year your question is about how the bureau went about contracting with mister medizodigan yes seems like it's sick is a similar process who may be they can assist in assisting them of the problem of correction on how they did there based up on the testimony brilliant ms martin guardia is going to come to the microphone and excuse us just a second mr hodge if you'd like to sit down over there and will will get you here just in separate here to take me out going back there. And misgeared if he would just state your name and position for the record police. Mortigarity director of the bureau of legislative research and representative to spring or you recognize to answer your question of miscarried is at this my understanding based upon the previous testimony that mister habitan indicated that he had represented the executive committee of the council with respect to some up of. Issues within your department so how did he go about because I mean there is the executive comedian then there is the alc so how did he happen process that they do all utilize in hiring him it may be something i'm thinking maybe is something that the department of corrections can use and this board here because seems like isn't the. To me it's it is kind of confused and so if you can help us understand how that particular entity went through it in these what maybe they can utilize some of the things that you audio in order to get this correct so first of all the house the senate the bureau of legislative research and i'm not sure about legislative audit are all example from the proterming loss so and then. It went to before executive subcommittee as an emergency action under the alc rules if there is an issue and there is emergency that it is an emergency the co chairs of legislative council can approve that and that was the method because we are in the middle of the session and only executive subcommittee of alc is authorized to meet during a session there was no other body to take that up alright thanks so okay so that explains that there may be there needs to be some rules adopted similar thank you thank you represent spring or any other questions from his guarantee from the committee. Saying that you're thank you I would do have another one. Great center. Thank you mister misguard wire we exempted from those procurement loss oh I don't know that piece of legislation and that law was passed before my time here so i'm not sure the purpose the intent it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that we're constitutional officers I don't believe so because cause it is in the last specific exemption from the procurement loss thank you very much thank you mister thank you center thank you this morning taking the question. So mr hodge if you wouldn't stand raise right hand and you saw me short test money about the give it shall be the truth the holder is not but true separate thank you mister had said please take your seats that your name and position for the record. And wade hards chief of stay off for the department of correction thank you mister hodge for being here retail by any member of the border corrections to pick a team and who do you think you work for the secretary or the board mister magness did indicate and an open board meeting that we needed pick it side. Okay and why did kelly knuckles a complete questions from the legislative council meeting on the twelfth of march since she's with the border of a border corrections and not the department of corrections and not the board yeah II don't believe that she did complete those kelly stayer says I believe mister brown indicated in history of a testimony was to go back and listened to the committee meeting and outlined the questions that the committee I asked that we are indicated we would get them responses to and so I think kelly's only responsibility was too note what those questions were I don't think kelly answered any of the questions. So going back to my original question why do you think that mister magness asked the question of you. Who do you think that you work for the secretary or the board I don't recall that specific question from mr magnus great so you were not. You don't remember that at all I don't remember that question okay. Alright thank you any questions from the committee. The. A center gill. Sir again where you recommend thank you and and you may have already addressed it I was at another meeting as a day for meetings. So we heard testimony from mr brown talking about you know question whether or not but there's questions for the border whether or not he had been talking to the ages office and I think that you know he turned around and said he you know he talked you and you didn't need to know who you had talked to so that's already been asked a few minutes I was out of the room would you mind answering whether or not you weren't consultation with the ages office and. Anything else no sure I did not consult with the attorney general's office in in the preparation of that january nighting member okay were you ever asked that by the board specifically. I was night as that by the board okay did the board give you any sort of indication of how they wanted you to operate did they tell you not to communicate that they tell you was there any sort of comments along those lines mr magnus indicated to me that if I needed legal advice I was to call either him or the board's attorney mark culburg. Okay all right and I presume that you followed that advice absolutely. Okay all right thank you mister. Is mrperiod magnus and attorney no sir okay okay mr hudson seeing no further questions from the committee yeah you're excused thank you thank you for being here they brew service so committee we're gonna knock off to day since we're gonna be coming back on the twenty second of april at ten o'clock in the morning in will have some hopefully would be able to put this to bed. Are come up with some recommendations going forward but I want to make sure it ever they understands the reason. The subpoenas are being issued for people when people refused to comply with invitations of the legislature. The decrease a lot of problems for us we can get answers under the questions that we have where responsible for three million people's taxes and make sure those are expended properly and believe it or not. This body has some authority we don't use it that often but when when the legislature is ignored. Then we're gonna it is our responsibility to hold those people accountable in order to get them into this room to answer questions of this body. The answers to are constituents in the state of arkansas will use the subpoena power and this exactly what we're going to do with the next committee meeting and without being said I hope you all have a nice weekend and we'll see again on the twenty second thank you meeting as journal.